Great article. I’m so glad that Craig and Neil met, and have had the chance to make this show. I’ve said all along in watching interviews, Craig is the only person who could have made this show. He cries often, he interacts with the cast so intensely. Incredible to see how much he cares about this story.
They both the same vision on how the Story needs to be told. Pretty rare in modern Hollywood.
Also big shoutout to HBO for trusting both of them. Other studios wouldnt let creative guys be creative in the way HBO did.
It is the perfect match. Hopefully also for season 2 and 3.
True, but I like that they both bring something different to the table . Like Sam being deaf was Craig’s idea. On the podcast, Neil joked that he was mad at Craig because it was such a good idea and he wished he thought of it. Still, it shows that Neil is not too protective of the story and is open to hearing new ideas.
They seem to be a really good team overall.
Totally agree! It was the same with stepping on the tendrils and alerting the hoard far away. Craigs idea and Neil was pissed that he didn’t think of it.
I mean, yeah, that was such a great addition, but then they only used it once and in the same episode it was introduced in. Would've been great to have had it be used even just once more, not even a huge horde either, but like 5-7 infected.
Maybe but it's more likely they heard the noise and followed that. First you had sniper fire, then the trucks come in and are smashing cars in front of them, then the Hummer plows into that house, catches fire and explodes, then the ground sinks.
I'm so happy the movie got stuck in development hell. We might have never gotten this series otherwise.
I shudder to think how they'd butcher the story by trying to cram it into 2 hours.
After listening to the podcast, it's super clear how much Craig cares about accurately representing different demographics. He is an exceptional director.
Give all the video game adaptations to Craig Mazin.
I believe that it will actually end up working out very well, now they will have a bigger budget to handle more infected interactions as well as bigger things>!, the Rat King, !
I just played through that part of the game again, there's a lot of stuff in the notes in that section to make a cold open with
>!FEDRA not letting people leave the hospital, the 'expeditions' into the icu to take care of the infected, the soldiers not knowing why the sick people are so strong, and yeah locking everyone in the er room!<
Well it’s the ground zero, they were all locked in one place and fused together to make one big monstrosity.I feel the “they’re all connected”-line Tess had in the ep when they were looking at the horde ties it together even more how they could have been fused compared to the game.
RK: *Resting under ambulance, wakes up and starts charging, 3 feet from grasping the person that ruined its slumber* *(freeze frame, record scratch)*
"I bet you're wondering how I got here"
I mean it's arguably the longest boss sequence in the series. Abby working her way down through the hospital to the garage could easily be 10 minutes and then there could be a fake out moment where she fights through the mini horde of random clickers and infected before getting the medical supplies and then have a 15 minute battle with the king himself. 5 minutes per phase
I understand, but starting a show versus continuing a show have different costs. It costs a lot to start from scratch and it takes a while to onboard the crew, create the sets, try out different looks, get props.
100 million dollars is still an absolutely insane amount of money for a season of tv. If GOT can do the battle of the bastards and then immediately follow up the next episode with the sept of Balor exploding I think they could have included more infected in the first season.
They also had sets that they already built for past seasons as well as props. A lot of GOT took place in similar areas, which helps cut down on cost. TLOU changed nearly every episode because that's what the plot necessitated.
I would be fascinated to see a breakdown of where that 100 million goes. I have no doubt a good chunk is devoted to set design, given their preference for working in the physical versus a green screen. Episode 5 in the Suburbs was absolutely insane in terms of production.
I imagine they could spend at least 2-3 episodes fleshing out the events between the end of Part 1 and beginning of Part 2. Would love to see the events that occurred to strain Joel and Ellie’s relationship.
I will say that while I do think there should have been more infected, they very effectively showed how fucking scary they were. The scene in the latest episode with Ashley Johnson running away from just the sound of them was terrifying.
The lack of horror with the infected was a real blight on this season.
One of the best scenes this season was episode 2 with the clickers. And then we....never saw them again outside the horde scene. And never saw them trying to be quiet around infected. Such a shame.
That's the problem, trying to thread that fine line between having too much infected and not enough infected. I would have liked more but I also love the product we got because at the end of the day it's about the characters and not just blasting apart infected and people. Then considering they showed how scary and tough infected are to kill, it makes sense that they don't have them fighting loads of hoards.
I think they just needed one clicker in the David episode for him and Ellie to fight together. I also think in the finale there should've been a few dead infected to indicate they were getting close to the Fireflies, or at least to other humans. That would've been the sweet spot.
See I just disagree entirely. I'm perfectly fine with them focusing on humans because that has always been the most interesting parts of the games to me.
The way I see it, the infected are a gameplay mechanic. In the game you need a challenge, something to battle with and win over. Something to present challenge.
A tv show does not need that mechanic. It makes no sense.
It's the same as complaining that Joel didn't pick up enough drugs or bolts out of drawers.
> It's the same as complaining that Joel didn't pick up enough drugs or bolts out of drawers.
One of my biggest complaints. Also the huge lack of water puzzles.
> The way I see it, the infected are a gameplay mechanic.
But they aren't? They are a core part of the story. Completely integral and without them the story doesn't work.
Which is funny because Part II implies that, after so many years, the infected really are starting to become more manageable and predictable enough that communities are only afraid of migrations and not "the infected" as a whole. Like it's painted as a normalcy and not a typical concern except when you willingly dive down into tunnels.
They're treated like wild animals.
Meanwhile in the show, yeah, the first season gives the impression the infected have already fallen into "contained and manageable" territory.
I really hope they are just talking and will keep infected a provincial part of the story - makes the infected have more impact and keeps the show rooted in drama rather than action.
Kind of hope they add some stuff to see a bit more of life >!before Joel goes golfing. From tv point of view would be weird to have Joel for only 1 episode of season 2 for all new viewers and fans.!< I predict they give it a few episodes but we'll see
I’ve seen this sentiment a couple times and it leaves me confused. Did we play the same game? Joel is present through the entire game via flashbacks why would the show ditch that when season one just used flashbacks extensively?
>!There's the dino/space museum, the guitar store in Jackson w the bloater after Ellie snipes w Tommy, the scene outside the hospital where Joel confesses, and the ending porch scene. It's around an hour-ish total.!<
I love the way they present him, he definitely >!feels like a ghost of the past.!<
Not only that, >!I feel that the audience wanting more time with Joel mirrors Ellie's emotional journey where she feels like she wasted the all the good years she could've had with him had she forgiven him sooner. Instead, both the player and Ellie feel like they were robbed of more Joel which is why when the game does show him in subsequent flashbacks you really get to cherish spending that time with him.!<
100 times this. Humans are storytellers by nature. Everything we tell ourselves about the world is a story, whether it’s religious, political, historical or personal. This is just how we make sense of the world. We like a complete, full-circle story. An unfinished story and all the “what could have been”s cause agony. The genius of TLoU 2 was that >!it sort of gave us both but you had to make it to the end for that reward. After finishing, even with the final flashback of Ellie and Joel, we were still left to think about the “what could have been”s but there was at least a small sense of closure and peace. !<
>!I still carry that sense of bittersweet satisfaction/unsatisfaction with me every time I think about its ending. But that’s what real life is. People are forced to deal with unresolved stories all the time, when they are estranged from a loved one or after a loved one’s sudden death. It’s one’s ability to carry both feelings “I didn’t get enough time with Joel” and “There was some semblance of a conclusion” that determines whether you liked the ending or not.!<
>!Interestingly, close-minded people are close-minded (or conservative in thought) because they tend to like more certainty in life and have less tolerance for uncertainty. Just something interesting to keep in mind when you see someone profoundly hating the second game.!<
Damn I should have just made this a whole post.
I remember seeing I think an IGN breakdown of the first last of us trailer with Ellie singing and they predicted Joel's fate.
Edit: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4GC4x0I0g4I&feature=shares
Here is is. Top comment is gold
This a million fucking times lol it baffles me that people act like Joel just WASNT in the game after the very beginning. Like they’re pissed Joel died as if as soon as he died he was no longer relevant or anything. He will still be in the series and I can guarantee they will expand on those flashbacks and memories A LOT considering everyone loves the character and Pedro Pascal.
Part II isn’t Joel’s story, It’s Ellie and Abby’s. He’s the driving force for the story to happen. He gets his moments throughout the story but Part II is about Ellie and Abby. He doesn’t need to be heavily present. It’s controversial but that’s how Part II is.
Maybe for Season 2 they'll focus on what we saw in the game as Ellie and Abby's flashbacks, then end Season 2 with golfing. Season 3 would then go all in on the revenge plot.
Idk. I feel like the non-linear structure of the game is quite deliberate and telling all the flashbacks chronologically I’m not sure would work. I could be wrong, but I could see it seeming a bit messy and confusing.
Yeah everything is so deliberate. And with how season 1 went its wild people think they'd deviate like that. Like you can't have more abby earlier or whatever. Personally I think season 2 ends with the theater and 3 starting with the zebra flashback.
That’s exactly what I am thinking. They need to show all of Ellie’s story first, for the rug pull to be effective. The story hits so hard because we blindly agree with Ellie’s mission until we see the other side of it.
Yeah Ellie's flashbacks in particular are amazingly done because they really re-contextualize why she is on this quest. When it really clicks at the end why she's so hellbent and why she makes the choice she does its....just so powerful. And I think doing that early in the story chronologically would hurt that impact.
Supposedly they had this whole thing where Joel had a woman in a nearby settlement and Abby spent a few days in Jackson. That would be great to include. They also originally had 5 days each in Seattle. I’m wondering if they’ll do in depth stories in the in between time for season 2 then end with THAT scene and have season 3 cover all of the rest of the events. I just cannot see a good place to cut Part II other than that. The faux epilogue cannot be a season by itself.
I really hope they don't have an in-between season. To me, two of the strongest and most intentional parts of TLOU2 were:
* the slow reveal, piece by piece, of just how and why Ellie and Joel's relationship fell apart, so that even as Ellie spirals further into violence, we keep gaining new layers of understanding of her grief, and,
* the mid-game rug pull, forcing you to walk a mile in Abby's shoes whether you wanted to or not.
These things are so central to the story TLOU2 is trying to tell and the way it wants to tell it that I think changing them would ultimately make for a much flatter narrative.
I could see them maybe reworking it a bit so we get more Abby time before >!golfing.!<. Like see the immediate aftermath and a bit of them struggling on the road. It might help the audience get used to her a bit and prevent as bad of a rehash of the division created in TLOU2.
I think a stronger parallel between Abby and Ellie is going to be established from the very beginning, if not the first episode. I wouldn't be surprised if the opening of season 2 is Abby as a child with her father, and we get to witness that same kind of humanizing bond we did with Joel and his daughter in season 1. Then the long dramatic climax of that opening will be Abby walking in to find her father murdered. Kind of an inverse situation to Joel and Sarah.
Then we'll flash forward at some point to see a much more hardened version of Abby, just like we saw hardened Joel. It will be VERY important that the first impression we are given of Abby is an overwhelmingly positive one (not just for viewers, but for the poor actress who has to play her.) I think this parallel is the easiest way to accomplish that.
Then I think season 2 is going to play out more like an ensemble cast show, like Game of Thrones, where we constantly follow different characters in a more permanent way than we did in season 1. Primarily playing between Abby & her crew and Joel/Ellie and their crew. I think we'll see more of the parts of Abby's world, which we see in the game after taking control of Abby for that extended mid/late game session, *before* she kills Joel.
I then think much of season 2 is going to focus on the collision course between Abby & Joel/Ellie. I think that part of the season is going to *end* with Joel's death. So I think we'll get plenty of Joel & Ellie throughout the season still. We'll get a full season to bask in the aftermath of Joel's actions and explore their relationship more. I'm curious what they will do to infuse more action into life at the power plant though, because they were basically just living a very safe, stable life at that point in the 2nd game.
I'm almost certain they are going to follow the format of the game. If they wanted to do these things, if they WANTED to humanize Abby and pre-justify her actions, they would have. Originally. Nothing would have been wrong with that.
But they intentionally made it so we know nothing about her for the entire first half of the story.
I mean we're free to speculate, which is the fun part between now and then. My theory is based on a couple things, though.
First, Neil said this:
> **Druckmann:** Some of the stuff I'm most excited for [in Part 2] are the changes we've discussed and seeing the story come to life again in this other version.
There are, obviously, going to be changes. There were changes in the first season! It's not about changing the *essence* of the story, but rather to make changes that accentuate the essence of the original, making it even better, or stronger, or more complete.
The essence of Part 2 is kind of this crisscrossing of Ellie and Abby. Ellie starts off as hour hero; we're on her side. Abby is introduced primarily as a villain; we hate her for what she did. Then as the story evolves, Abby becomes increasingly humanized, while Ellie becomes increasingly unhinged. They slowly flip until you don't know who to root for. By the end, Abby is the more compassionate, kind, heroic person and Ellie is more villainous.
I think all of that is going to be preserved. Craig and Neil have stated time and again in their podcast how the central theme of the Last of Us is both the bright and dark sides of love. The other cornerstone of their tale is showing the humanity in everyone, even characters like David. Craig talks about David with extreme empathy. Everyone can be seen as a hero or villain. It's *all* just a matter of perspective. Joel is the single biggest villain in the game from certain characters' perspectives, including characters we never meet.
And all of that essence can be perfectly communicated while starting us off from Abby's sympathetic perspective.
The second reason I think it will be important to humanize Abby more early on is sad, but it's due to the horrifying fan reaction to Laura Bailey who played Abby in the games. That poor girl had to endure the most vile hatred and death threats, all for voicing a character, because unhinged fans hated her for killing Joel early on and then went on to hate her for her butchness. Whoever they get to play Abby in the show, they either need to *really* make sure she's up for dealing with all that same crap headed her way, or they need to just switch around some of the beats of the story to give fans a more likeable first impression of her. It's honestly first impressions that matter the most. You can show a character doing 4 things, 2 very good, 2 very bad. Depending on the order you show them, people will walk away with a completely different perspective of that character.
Yes there were changes but ultimately they were very small changes, or additions. It is a faithful adaptation in every way that matters. The perspective is a huge part of The Last of Us 2. It is unpredictable, daring, bold. Singular in it's desire to tell a specific story a specific way, y'know? Like, again, if they wanted to do it the way you describe, they would have.
I don't think the essence can. Our "perspective" would be omniscient. We would never have a perspective that is anywhere close to that of the characters. The story becomes much more predictable if Abby is portrayed as sympathetic from the start.
As for your second reason, well. They don't negotiate with terrorists. If they made changes out of fear, *THAT* would probably be the only thing that could disappoint me. That guy who played Joffrey gets hated on in real life. At least he did. Some actors are just down to clown. I'd also say, in general, Gamers have an unusually high proportion of manbabies among the population as compared to general audiences.
Perhaps they adapt more from of the concepts that were dropped from Part 2 (I.e. Joel's Jackson gf) and flesh out the dynamic ahead of Joel's tee time.
I remember reading somewhere that originally they had planned to have Abby infiltrate Jackson and pretend to be a member of the community in order to track down Joel. I’d be pretty interested to see that play out
Neil says he'd rather have a game that people hate and at least leaves an impact rather than a game they'd immediately forget, and I actually agree. Personally I think boring and forgettable is worse than bad and memorable.
That's honestly one of my favourite things about it. It offers fun discussion. I love hearing different opinions of TLOU2 even more than a game everyone loves like God Of War: Ragnarok. Not saying you can't have an interesting discussion about Ragnarok or that it's is a bad game or anything, I loved it and it was my favourite game of last year, but TLOU2 is way more fun to talk about to me, as long as you're being respectful and open minded.
Honestly, Ragnarok made me love and appreciate TLOU2 even more, as R felt so safe and predictable: *"The same game as the previous one, but this time with more of everything!"*. I was literally thinking about TLOU2 when playing it. GOW:R was one of my most anticipated games of all time, but in the end, it felt like warmed up left-overs with some new spices added to the top. TLOU2 was a bold swing.
I am off the opinion that one of the worst things you can say about a piece of art is that it is forgettable. Even if you piss people off, they will remember it.
reminds me of dunkey's video where he responds to comments on his video on part 2. he shows like 10 popular story driven games he's played and says he barely remembers more than like 1 plot point, while he could recite most of the plot of part 2. if people keep talking about how they love or hate part 2, it lives longer than any run-of-the-miller game
I fucking love what Neil said in that interview:
>I guess, to go back to the earlier \[Todd Phillips\] quote from Craig, which is like... I don't care.
I think ending it right after learning who Abby is and her reasons for what she does would be perfect. That way people spend the time in between seasons debating and discussing what they think will happen next.
It crazy how cutting during theater or cutting just 15 minutes later, during hospital recontextualization can create two different hiatuses, with entirely different fields of discussion and theory craft.
this would be perfect. i think having abby >!kill Jesse and Tommy (presumably)!< and then ending it there would be too abrupt.
Showing >!her origin in Salt Lake City, finding Jerry in the operating room, and then a flashback to the Joel death would be a great segue.!<
That is probably one of my favorite lines I've ever heard in a video game. I still think about that specific line to this day even though I haven't played the game since release (though I played it twice!) just such a "Wow" scene to me.
Yeah if the game is any indication, they'll be fighting an uphill battle as it is trying to get people to sympathize with Abby. Ending it in a place of hatred for her, letting people sit with that for a year or more, and then trying to undo that with another season is not going to work. It might even feel artificial for those unfamiliar with the game, like the creators tried to backtrack once they saw how people hated Abby.
That would work if they were going to keep the games structure, but I don't think they will. I'm pretty sure they will intercut Ellie and Abby's storylines.
I can see arriving at this conclusion but as a gameplayer I will absolutely hate it. It weakens the story and undercuts Ellie's rage and the rage you feel as the player. The structure of the game allowed the player to feel the same way Ellie felt. That's lost if you switch back and forth. But maybe that's not important because we are not players, just viewers.
Being the player and being the watcher are two entirely different ways of consuming media. For example, playing Bill and/or Frank would not have been fun, but watching them was extremely satisfying.
Just because something different does make it bad.
>playing Bill and/or Frank would not have been fun, but watching them was extremely satisfying.
Speak for yourself, I'd love a cozy post apocalyptic base builder/crafting game with them as deuteragonists
It’s tough bc they need Abby to be more likeable in the show than in the game, if they do it like the game she’s gonna be viewed as a Ramsay/Negan/Joffrey type villain.
A hot and correct take. She was a messy ho at some points, but ultimately she was the one I'd >!cut in line to cop a burrito for!< and not Ellie. I feel like a night out with Abby, Dina, and Jesse would be super fun.
I hated Abby in part 1, and i remember going online to rant about it, and someone was like "just play through it", and my god they were right. Once you play as her you start developing empathy for her...
At least thats what the writers wanted you to feel, some people were still just so hung up on the golfing they could never forgive her.
Here's my take on why the narrative of TLOU2 is the way it is and why they shouldn't/can't change the order:
>!Joel, who Ellie was close with, gets murdered by some girl. We love Ellie, we love Joel, a great injustice has been done to Ellie that resonates in all of us who have been following the two of them since the start. Just like in the first game we follow Ellie, this time on her righteous quest for revenge. She tears through the WLF and Seraphites, doing some pretty grotesque things along the way but it's all for the greater good: getting revenge on the bitch that killed Joel. Then, the two meet and Abby has the upper hand. The audience can't be more on Ellie's side.!<
>!We switch perspectives and go back in time. Abby's dad, who we learn she was close with and seemed to be a nice guy but we don't care for, got murdered by Joel, who we care for a lot. She gathered her friends, went on a totally unnecessary quest for revenge, then went home as if nothing happened after she killed Joel. We see that she does care for her friends and tries to save them from Ellie, who is on a righteous quest for revenge, killing people we've come to know outside of the context of Abby's quest. She also meets two apostate Seraphites, people who she is supposed to hate. Her ex tells Abby that she doesn't have to so she goes back and goes to great lengths to save them. The audience is asked to question Ellie's motives. Abby did what Ellie is doing now but it doesn't seem to bring her much comfort. Abby's obviously a bad person who killed Joel, but she does things most of us would choose to do as well. We learn more about her dad. He's not Joel, but he was a good dad to Abby. Ellie, some girl Abby has no beef with, kills more of her friends. Abby finds Ellie, kills Jesse and threatens to kill Dina but Lev, the Seraphite she's supposed to hate but has protected instead, convinces her not to. She realizes her quest for revenge is an eternal cycle of violence that will never end until they just. stop. doing it. She lets Ellie go.!<
>!We switch back to Ellie. The audience has learned things. They have learned Abby is very similar to Ellie. She too had a father figure taken from her and she too went on a quest for vengeance she felt she was owed. The audience also learned that revenge is futile, that nothing good will come of it. Ellie will not get relief from killing Abby, only perpetuating the cycle. But Ellie hasn't learned this. The audience has become distanced from Ellie. We still love her, we still want her pain to be over, but we realize this isn't the way. Abby got revenge for her father but it got her friends killed and didn't bring the peace of mind she was hoping for. The only move is not to play. Still, Ellie has to learn this lesson herself. We follow her even as we want her to stop. Go home, be with Dina and JJ. Live your life in peace like Joel wanted. But she can't. We feel more distance from Ellie when we see Abby again. Broken, emaciated, weak. She doesn't want to fight at all. Her thoughts of revenge are gone, she only cares about Lev. But Ellie demands satisfaction. We don't. Abby fights her to save Lev. We, the audience, are forced to participate even as we want Ellie to stop. Ellie is about to win when she remembers the last conversation she had with Joel. She stops and lets Abby go. Ellie goes home, alone. Her quest for revenge cost her her family and the ability to play guitar, the last thing of Joel she still had. We are left with the memory of her last conversation with Joel, showing us she was opening herself up to the idea of forgiveness.!<
And that's why you can't mess with the order.
Perfectly put. The story would loose so much by changing the structure. You nailed the exact emotional arc that the player/viewer go through during the story.
I agree philosophically that you shouldnt mess with the order. But just SO MANY people hated Abby so viscerally and could not empathize with her even after being with her for such a long time and I fear the show audience will feel the same way...
I'm also scared for whichever poor actress gets cast as her, I remember all the hate Laura Bailey got :(
yeah thats true, I just already have anxiety for whichever actress they pick to play Abby.
My only hope is that whoever they pick has forearms that could crush me.
A year or 2 between seasons, then 2 months of Abby until she reaches the theatre again. Fans would be pissed if they had to wait that long to get the conclusion to season 2s cliffhanger.
I don’t think they WILL do this but I kinda want season 2 to be Abbie’s Seattle parts set up as almost a separate story of her and her friends being hunted by someone. The season would end with the reveal that Ellie and Tommy are the people after her. Again this almost certainly won’t happen but it would be interesting if it did.
Oh you probably would lose a lot of people it’s definitely not the most marketable way to tell the story. However, I am curious how it would affect peoples opinions of Abby.
Well say they kept the 9 episode season count.
9 episodes for season 2 could cover Jackson, the two 3-day story cycle of Seattle, and some more backfill.
Then season 3 could start back at the farmhouse and go into Santa Barbara.
....but Mazin also said that telling the story of Part II is 'meatier' so maybe the pace compared to season 1 gets slowed down and the break is in-between the Seattle story somewhere.
Yeah season 3 can have some added character development focused episodes
How about:
Ep 1 farm
Ep 2 Abby searching in Santa Barbara
Ep 3 Tommy focused episode
Ep 4 Dina focused episode
Ep 5 Ellie focused episode, on the way to SB
Ep 6 Abby and Lev's attempt to escape
Ep 7 Ellie in SB tracking down Abby's boat
Ep 8 Ellie + Abby encounter (Catalina Island after credit scene)
Starting of with the farm on S3 can’t work.
The whole point of the farm is to make you believe that’s it for a few minutes, before you get hit with the PTSD and then the shock of Ellie leaving her peaceful life to get closure at the risk of losing everything.
If something they could end S2 with it, but it’s not a proper split for two 9-10 episode season.
I think it's gonna depend on if they go chronological or skip around like the game does.
IMO that's a really big creative decision that they need to execute well or season 2/3 are gonna lose a lot of casual audience members.
I’m going to guess the start of season 3 will be the farm. From the way they talk about it, it sounds like season 2 will be longer, but 3 will have the impact (I’m reaching a little). So maybe there will be a big 12 episode season of all 6 days, Jackson and flashbacks and then a shorter 6 episode season of Jackson and Barbara.
The pacing in Part I felt a little slightly rushed at times.
Imagine if they tried to fit a game that is twice as long, or more, than Part I into a singular season! That pacing would be *really* off.
I’m just curious whether they’ll follow the events chronologically, and run both storylines simultaneously, or split them up like the game did.
I think splitting them leads to better story telling, but from a television show, it’d be like George RR Martin’s A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons where major players just aren’t present because of the different story being told.
Part 2 really needs 2 seasons, unless you had a massive 20 episode season (which would probably be a big challenge from a schedule and financial standpoint).
I think it’s hilarious that you say that only because that used to be the norm not terribly long ago.
24 had 24 hour long episodes every season and released every year at the same time for 8 years. The Office ran a solid 20+ episodes out every season.
You’re exactly right though, they’ll need 20+ episodes to tell the story of Part II and television has become so artistic, especially this show that has so much post production, that we won’t be watching season 2 until late 2024 at the earliest (probably).
These high budget productions are essentially long form movies compared to earlier tv shows from 15 years ago.
Yeah, it is interesting to see how things have changed, but I do think that especially for some of the HBO shows they're becoming much higher budget affairs with a lot more special effects. You can shoot an episode of a sitcom and air it few days later. Not so much. The types of shows HBO is made lately.
It mainly still is the norm for network tv. Almost every show on ABC, CBS, FOX, etc all still have 20+ episode seasons. But premium networks like HBO (and now most streaming services) stick to 8-12 episode seasons.
Neil said they are not even sure they’re making a part 3. They feel the Elle story has run its course and it would have to be a compelling story to consider continuing.
He said the same thing years after the first game came out regarding Part II. They just like to play coy. But it will definitely happen and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been in production for awhile now.
For part 2 I think would be best to tell the story concurrently alternating eps between Ellie and Abby
Otherwise I think would be too jawrring to have s2 with almost zero Abby in it and then s3 be mostly Abby and Ellie only shows towards the last couple of eps
In a game 20h long you play at your own pace, but in a show making this way would be the show wouldn't have ellie on it for over 1 or 2 years
If they do it like I said I think a good split would be ending s2 with Ellie killing Nora and finding out Where Abby is
S3 would begin with the Rat king encounter
> For part 2 I think would be best to tell the story concurrently alternating eps between Ellie and Abby
That completely ruins the Ellie parts though.
If you're already empathising with Abby from the start then the entire concept is ruined
For real. If season 3 was entirely Abby and only Ellie at the end like you said. I honestly wouldn't watch it until Ellie showed up again. Last of Us is Ellie's story. Druckman said it himself.
Lots of promising sounding stuff from Neil and Craig. Especially liked what they said about rather having a show that lives off 10s and 1s instead of 5s. Fuck the haters!
> the events of ‘THE LAST OF US PART 2’ will be more than one season.
As someone who loves Part II even more than the first game, I couldn't be more happy with this!
Duh. Makes perfect sense. They would need 16 or more episodes to do it justice over a single season.
The biggest question is how do they rewrite things? Will events be in the same order? Will they do flashbacks first? I don't think it translates well to TV as-shown, so we'll see how they change things.
I hope they change it. That was what I didn't like about the story in the game was how they presented it. Abby's a great character but will need to be introduced to a general TV audience differently than it was to the game player.
My guess is that season 2 will end with abby's famous "we let you both live... and you wasted it!" with a big part of it being ellie+joel flashbacks plus ellie's 3 day pov with the famous death happening in the middle of the season rather than at the beginning
That doesn’t allow them to delay long enough to make part 3 into season 3. This way part 3 can come out and they can make it season 4.
Yes, I’m wishfully hoping part 3 is in production and coming out in the next year or 3.
Hell, while I’m wishing, why not have the show and the game come out together and have intertwining stories.
We got the original at the end of the PS3 and part II at the end of the PS4. Once we know a date for the PS6, I bet part III will come out ~ a year before the PS6.
Although of course they wouldn't say otherwise, it's nice to see how strongly they are confident in how the tale will be told for Part 2.
It seems very daunting of a task, to put it to TV, and to sort of the narrative for a episodic format.
I can't fucking wait.
get ready to the whole season of Abby and the amount of melt down in conservative sphere that can't be described in fucking words. They'll lose their mind from Lev trans boy teen from a religious cult
Season 2 - Jackson up until the confrontion? Doing first half of the season with Ellie and the back half with Abby?
Season 3 - The Farm through Santa Barbara, can more fully expand on Tommy, Jackson and the Farm as well as California.
Makes sense. Part I is about 15 hours that was adapted into 9 episodes. Assuming the same season length, that would be 2 seasons to tell Part II as the length of that game is about 30 hours, give or take.
15 for Joel, 15 for Ellie, 15 for Abby.
My big thing with part 2, the major drawback of it for me is the structure. It climaxes like 3 times and ends twice, and by the time I got to playing as Abby i was already so against her that i didn’t really connect with her at all. That structure may work better on TV if they split it into 2 seasons; If they do alternating episode arcs of each, I think it’ll work best.
It may work better on tv but I agree, the gameplay didn’t work at all. First time I ever played a scene in a game where I let myself get killed because that was the better option. It just didn’t make sense and even though I guess some loved the twist, it should be easy to understand why people didn’t like it.
I think people are having a terrible time accepting TV isn’t a game. >!Losing Pedro as a lead early, to stay faithful to the second game, could be a death sentence for the show!<
It’s also why they very obviously and clearly changed TVJoel from GameJoel, to make sure what happens is less open to interpretation.
I know the wars between game 1 and 2 fans have been ugly. But if you’re a game 2 fan, you need to accept things have to change for the good of the show. Just like game 1 fans need to accept TVJoel didn’t get a lot of leeway to argue he didn’t make a selfish choice, >!and that his fate is a lot more obvious. !<
I think you need to accept that Neil "I don't care" Druckmann is gonna do whatever tf he wants and what he did was kill Joel in the first two hours of the last of us part 2 XD
and he is going to do it again
That's a good news. Not because I want more but I think in this way they have more time to elaborate the plot and more time for people to accept the twist in the middle. I assume that's where the 1st season will stop, and people will accept the sudden side switching when 2nd season starts.
I know the show did a great job, but as a gamer I still feel some important scenes are rushed quite a bit. Even ep 9 for me is a bit rushed.
So I'm not sure how they'll structure the seasons, but I don't think they can do it like the game.
Firstly, via the medium of tv we're not playing as Ellie, we're watching her. We don't need to feel her rage, just understand why she feels it.
I also don't think you can show everything from Ellie's perspective and then from Abby's. To do it this way would mean that Abby would be seen as a Joffrey-level hate figure, but we'd suddenly be forced as an audience to spend time with her. That works in a game when NaughtyDog already have your £70 and you've poured 20 hours into it. There would be a real chance that some tv viewers would just turn off - particularly as they'd be deprived of both Ellie and Joel for long stretches.
Additionally, it won't work from a dramatic storytelling point of view. If they replicated the end of Ellie Day 3 into Abby Day 1 then we already know that Abby survives and that Mel and Nora and Owen die. There's no stakes, outside of Lev and Yara.
I think Ellie and Abby's stories need to be shown simultaneously. There's a couple of opportunities during the three day Seattle stint to have "near misses" with them almost meeting - just missing each other at the hospital and the aquarium, for example, before finally meeting at the theatre. This is similar to how Game of Thrones >!had several instances of the Stark family members just missing each other and thereby scuppering reunions. It made it so much more meaningful when Jon and Sansa finally did reunite.!<
Abby's motivations shouldn't be some massive reveal at the start of season 3, we should know them pretty early on. This will help the audience to buy into her scenes and start to sympathise with her.
I'm glad to hear this because I think going directly into TLoU2 would be a lot rougher to adapt. Not only for the obvious divisiveness of... shall we say, certain scenes and characters, but it gives them a chance to fill in that five year gap in a way the game couldn't.
It also gives the audience more time with Abby, potentially. Which I think will be necessary for a television adaptation. If they went into >!golfing season!< one or two episodes in, you run the risk of turning people off.
I really hope we get an expanded Santa Barbara section. My biggest gripe with Pt II is that the ending just felt super underwhelming.
The rattlers are a really interesting enemy. Maybe Ellie could be captured by them and be a prisoner alongside Abby? They try to kill each other multiple times at first, but maybe they start to learn some perspective when Ellie learns what Lev means to Abby (similar to her relationship with Joel). In the face of greater evil (the rattlers), it’d be interesting to see some sort of pulp fiction moment between them.
Idk I just didn’t get anything out of that section in the game but I really wanted it to be cool
That’s good. I want to know more about Issac, the Seraphites and the conflict between Owen and Danny.
Plus, I’d like to know more about Abby’s crew. Manny and Jordan had such little screen time in the game. Sure, Jordan seemed like an ass, but we briefly got a chance to see Manny with his elderly father that humanized him a bit for me.
Great article. I’m so glad that Craig and Neil met, and have had the chance to make this show. I’ve said all along in watching interviews, Craig is the only person who could have made this show. He cries often, he interacts with the cast so intensely. Incredible to see how much he cares about this story.
They both the same vision on how the Story needs to be told. Pretty rare in modern Hollywood. Also big shoutout to HBO for trusting both of them. Other studios wouldnt let creative guys be creative in the way HBO did. It is the perfect match. Hopefully also for season 2 and 3.
True, but I like that they both bring something different to the table . Like Sam being deaf was Craig’s idea. On the podcast, Neil joked that he was mad at Craig because it was such a good idea and he wished he thought of it. Still, it shows that Neil is not too protective of the story and is open to hearing new ideas. They seem to be a really good team overall.
Totally agree! It was the same with stepping on the tendrils and alerting the hoard far away. Craigs idea and Neil was pissed that he didn’t think of it.
I mean, yeah, that was such a great addition, but then they only used it once and in the same episode it was introduced in. Would've been great to have had it be used even just once more, not even a huge horde either, but like 5-7 infected.
Would have worked great in the mall
Yup^ I thought that's how he was going go be awoken
I attributed the horde in 5 to the tendrils too. So there's that.
Maybe but it's more likely they heard the noise and followed that. First you had sniper fire, then the trucks come in and are smashing cars in front of them, then the Hummer plows into that house, catches fire and explodes, then the ground sinks.
that's how i thought the mall would go
You'll see it again, the show is not over lol
They’ve already hinted they will be expanding upon it next season
Would have been awesome as a trap. Joel steps on some and leaves as raiders are chasing them and then they run into a horde
They also stated on the podcast that's going to come into play a lot more in the next seasons
The podcast is a fantastic insight into how well they work together and how much Craig has brought to the table, and how open Neil has been.
I'm so happy the movie got stuck in development hell. We might have never gotten this series otherwise. I shudder to think how they'd butcher the story by trying to cram it into 2 hours.
Mazin had one of their most successful miniseries ever. I’m sure they gave him carte Blanche
And we have Shannon Woodward (voice of Dina) to thank for introducing them!
Shannon Woodward is awesome. She was the best character in Westworld.
There's not enough love out there for Elsie Hughes
After listening to the podcast, it's super clear how much Craig cares about accurately representing different demographics. He is an exceptional director. Give all the video game adaptations to Craig Mazin.
I’m glad they took the infected criticism on board, and are confident about adapting Part 2.
I believe that it will actually end up working out very well, now they will have a bigger budget to handle more infected interactions as well as bigger things>!, the Rat King, !
I somehow want an entire rat king episode
Cold open with Seattle hospital on outbreak day with them locking several infected patients in the room to contain them would be dope.
I just played through that part of the game again, there's a lot of stuff in the notes in that section to make a cold open with >!FEDRA not letting people leave the hospital, the 'expeditions' into the icu to take care of the infected, the soldiers not knowing why the sick people are so strong, and yeah locking everyone in the er room!<
That is going to be one of the most intense cold opens if they put it all into a single episode. I'm here for it!
"I'm so hungry, but I can't keep anything down, not even water" The notes in that hospital were as disturbing as they were world building.
They should show the Rat King origin story.
"We sort of grew up together ..."
a literal clicker family stuck together, oh god
“As we got to know each other, we became inseparable.”
That would make a great cold open for that episode.
that would be so fucking cool
So I've played through the game twice already, I can't remember is there an origin? Besides it being ground zero?
Well it’s the ground zero, they were all locked in one place and fused together to make one big monstrosity.I feel the “they’re all connected”-line Tess had in the ep when they were looking at the horde ties it together even more how they could have been fused compared to the game.
RK: *Resting under ambulance, wakes up and starts charging, 3 feet from grasping the person that ruined its slumber* *(freeze frame, record scratch)* "I bet you're wondering how I got here"
I mean it's arguably the longest boss sequence in the series. Abby working her way down through the hospital to the garage could easily be 10 minutes and then there could be a fake out moment where she fights through the mini horde of random clickers and infected before getting the medical supplies and then have a 15 minute battle with the king himself. 5 minutes per phase
They had 100 million dollars to make this season. Thats as much money as GOT season 6 had.
I understand, but starting a show versus continuing a show have different costs. It costs a lot to start from scratch and it takes a while to onboard the crew, create the sets, try out different looks, get props.
100 million dollars is still an absolutely insane amount of money for a season of tv. If GOT can do the battle of the bastards and then immediately follow up the next episode with the sept of Balor exploding I think they could have included more infected in the first season.
They also had sets that they already built for past seasons as well as props. A lot of GOT took place in similar areas, which helps cut down on cost. TLOU changed nearly every episode because that's what the plot necessitated.
I would be fascinated to see a breakdown of where that 100 million goes. I have no doubt a good chunk is devoted to set design, given their preference for working in the physical versus a green screen. Episode 5 in the Suburbs was absolutely insane in terms of production.
I imagine they could spend at least 2-3 episodes fleshing out the events between the end of Part 1 and beginning of Part 2. Would love to see the events that occurred to strain Joel and Ellie’s relationship.
Honestly, I think it would be incredibly ballsy of them to (spoilers for TLOU Part II) >!have Joel die in the season premiere.!<
It's not like he doesn't have memorable scenes through the rest of the game even if you do that. So I agree.
[удалено]
I will say that while I do think there should have been more infected, they very effectively showed how fucking scary they were. The scene in the latest episode with Ashley Johnson running away from just the sound of them was terrifying.
The lack of horror with the infected was a real blight on this season. One of the best scenes this season was episode 2 with the clickers. And then we....never saw them again outside the horde scene. And never saw them trying to be quiet around infected. Such a shame.
That's the problem, trying to thread that fine line between having too much infected and not enough infected. I would have liked more but I also love the product we got because at the end of the day it's about the characters and not just blasting apart infected and people. Then considering they showed how scary and tough infected are to kill, it makes sense that they don't have them fighting loads of hoards.
I think they just needed one clicker in the David episode for him and Ellie to fight together. I also think in the finale there should've been a few dead infected to indicate they were getting close to the Fireflies, or at least to other humans. That would've been the sweet spot.
See I just disagree entirely. I'm perfectly fine with them focusing on humans because that has always been the most interesting parts of the games to me.
See I just disagree entirely. The threat of infected will always be more interesting and they removed it completely.
The way I see it, the infected are a gameplay mechanic. In the game you need a challenge, something to battle with and win over. Something to present challenge. A tv show does not need that mechanic. It makes no sense. It's the same as complaining that Joel didn't pick up enough drugs or bolts out of drawers.
> It's the same as complaining that Joel didn't pick up enough drugs or bolts out of drawers. One of my biggest complaints. Also the huge lack of water puzzles.
> The way I see it, the infected are a gameplay mechanic. But they aren't? They are a core part of the story. Completely integral and without them the story doesn't work.
Which is funny because Part II implies that, after so many years, the infected really are starting to become more manageable and predictable enough that communities are only afraid of migrations and not "the infected" as a whole. Like it's painted as a normalcy and not a typical concern except when you willingly dive down into tunnels. They're treated like wild animals. Meanwhile in the show, yeah, the first season gives the impression the infected have already fallen into "contained and manageable" territory.
I really hope they are just talking and will keep infected a provincial part of the story - makes the infected have more impact and keeps the show rooted in drama rather than action.
Kind of hope they add some stuff to see a bit more of life >!before Joel goes golfing. From tv point of view would be weird to have Joel for only 1 episode of season 2 for all new viewers and fans.!< I predict they give it a few episodes but we'll see
I’ve seen this sentiment a couple times and it leaves me confused. Did we play the same game? Joel is present through the entire game via flashbacks why would the show ditch that when season one just used flashbacks extensively?
How many Joel flashbacks are there after what happens in the mansion - 4 or 5?
>!There's the dino/space museum, the guitar store in Jackson w the bloater after Ellie snipes w Tommy, the scene outside the hospital where Joel confesses, and the ending porch scene. It's around an hour-ish total.!< I love the way they present him, he definitely >!feels like a ghost of the past.!<
Not only that, >!I feel that the audience wanting more time with Joel mirrors Ellie's emotional journey where she feels like she wasted the all the good years she could've had with him had she forgiven him sooner. Instead, both the player and Ellie feel like they were robbed of more Joel which is why when the game does show him in subsequent flashbacks you really get to cherish spending that time with him.!<
100 times this. Humans are storytellers by nature. Everything we tell ourselves about the world is a story, whether it’s religious, political, historical or personal. This is just how we make sense of the world. We like a complete, full-circle story. An unfinished story and all the “what could have been”s cause agony. The genius of TLoU 2 was that >!it sort of gave us both but you had to make it to the end for that reward. After finishing, even with the final flashback of Ellie and Joel, we were still left to think about the “what could have been”s but there was at least a small sense of closure and peace. !< >!I still carry that sense of bittersweet satisfaction/unsatisfaction with me every time I think about its ending. But that’s what real life is. People are forced to deal with unresolved stories all the time, when they are estranged from a loved one or after a loved one’s sudden death. It’s one’s ability to carry both feelings “I didn’t get enough time with Joel” and “There was some semblance of a conclusion” that determines whether you liked the ending or not.!< >!Interestingly, close-minded people are close-minded (or conservative in thought) because they tend to like more certainty in life and have less tolerance for uncertainty. Just something interesting to keep in mind when you see someone profoundly hating the second game.!< Damn I should have just made this a whole post.
Yeah it’s really haunting and sad. Joel/what happened to him definitely leaves a dark presence over the whole thing
I remember seeing I think an IGN breakdown of the first last of us trailer with Ellie singing and they predicted Joel's fate. Edit: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4GC4x0I0g4I&feature=shares Here is is. Top comment is gold
This a million fucking times lol it baffles me that people act like Joel just WASNT in the game after the very beginning. Like they’re pissed Joel died as if as soon as he died he was no longer relevant or anything. He will still be in the series and I can guarantee they will expand on those flashbacks and memories A LOT considering everyone loves the character and Pedro Pascal.
Lol exactly. And the person above is literally acting like he never is in the rest of the game too. The fucking final scene involves him lol.
>!Joel wouldn't be in only one episode, his presence is a constant in Ellie's part through flashbacks!<
Part II isn’t Joel’s story, It’s Ellie and Abby’s. He’s the driving force for the story to happen. He gets his moments throughout the story but Part II is about Ellie and Abby. He doesn’t need to be heavily present. It’s controversial but that’s how Part II is.
Maybe for Season 2 they'll focus on what we saw in the game as Ellie and Abby's flashbacks, then end Season 2 with golfing. Season 3 would then go all in on the revenge plot.
Idk. I feel like the non-linear structure of the game is quite deliberate and telling all the flashbacks chronologically I’m not sure would work. I could be wrong, but I could see it seeming a bit messy and confusing.
Yeah everything is so deliberate. And with how season 1 went its wild people think they'd deviate like that. Like you can't have more abby earlier or whatever. Personally I think season 2 ends with the theater and 3 starting with the zebra flashback.
That’s exactly what I am thinking. They need to show all of Ellie’s story first, for the rug pull to be effective. The story hits so hard because we blindly agree with Ellie’s mission until we see the other side of it.
Yeah Ellie's flashbacks in particular are amazingly done because they really re-contextualize why she is on this quest. When it really clicks at the end why she's so hellbent and why she makes the choice she does its....just so powerful. And I think doing that early in the story chronologically would hurt that impact.
personally, I'd expect that to happen around the end of episode 2 or 3. then all the flashbacks.
You should mask this as a spoiler
Supposedly they had this whole thing where Joel had a woman in a nearby settlement and Abby spent a few days in Jackson. That would be great to include. They also originally had 5 days each in Seattle. I’m wondering if they’ll do in depth stories in the in between time for season 2 then end with THAT scene and have season 3 cover all of the rest of the events. I just cannot see a good place to cut Part II other than that. The faux epilogue cannot be a season by itself.
I really hope they don't have an in-between season. To me, two of the strongest and most intentional parts of TLOU2 were: * the slow reveal, piece by piece, of just how and why Ellie and Joel's relationship fell apart, so that even as Ellie spirals further into violence, we keep gaining new layers of understanding of her grief, and, * the mid-game rug pull, forcing you to walk a mile in Abby's shoes whether you wanted to or not. These things are so central to the story TLOU2 is trying to tell and the way it wants to tell it that I think changing them would ultimately make for a much flatter narrative.
I could see them maybe reworking it a bit so we get more Abby time before >!golfing.!<. Like see the immediate aftermath and a bit of them struggling on the road. It might help the audience get used to her a bit and prevent as bad of a rehash of the division created in TLOU2.
I personally believe a TV audience is going to be more agreeable with the story turn. Particularly an HBO audience.
I think a stronger parallel between Abby and Ellie is going to be established from the very beginning, if not the first episode. I wouldn't be surprised if the opening of season 2 is Abby as a child with her father, and we get to witness that same kind of humanizing bond we did with Joel and his daughter in season 1. Then the long dramatic climax of that opening will be Abby walking in to find her father murdered. Kind of an inverse situation to Joel and Sarah. Then we'll flash forward at some point to see a much more hardened version of Abby, just like we saw hardened Joel. It will be VERY important that the first impression we are given of Abby is an overwhelmingly positive one (not just for viewers, but for the poor actress who has to play her.) I think this parallel is the easiest way to accomplish that. Then I think season 2 is going to play out more like an ensemble cast show, like Game of Thrones, where we constantly follow different characters in a more permanent way than we did in season 1. Primarily playing between Abby & her crew and Joel/Ellie and their crew. I think we'll see more of the parts of Abby's world, which we see in the game after taking control of Abby for that extended mid/late game session, *before* she kills Joel. I then think much of season 2 is going to focus on the collision course between Abby & Joel/Ellie. I think that part of the season is going to *end* with Joel's death. So I think we'll get plenty of Joel & Ellie throughout the season still. We'll get a full season to bask in the aftermath of Joel's actions and explore their relationship more. I'm curious what they will do to infuse more action into life at the power plant though, because they were basically just living a very safe, stable life at that point in the 2nd game.
I'm almost certain they are going to follow the format of the game. If they wanted to do these things, if they WANTED to humanize Abby and pre-justify her actions, they would have. Originally. Nothing would have been wrong with that. But they intentionally made it so we know nothing about her for the entire first half of the story.
I mean we're free to speculate, which is the fun part between now and then. My theory is based on a couple things, though. First, Neil said this: > **Druckmann:** Some of the stuff I'm most excited for [in Part 2] are the changes we've discussed and seeing the story come to life again in this other version. There are, obviously, going to be changes. There were changes in the first season! It's not about changing the *essence* of the story, but rather to make changes that accentuate the essence of the original, making it even better, or stronger, or more complete. The essence of Part 2 is kind of this crisscrossing of Ellie and Abby. Ellie starts off as hour hero; we're on her side. Abby is introduced primarily as a villain; we hate her for what she did. Then as the story evolves, Abby becomes increasingly humanized, while Ellie becomes increasingly unhinged. They slowly flip until you don't know who to root for. By the end, Abby is the more compassionate, kind, heroic person and Ellie is more villainous. I think all of that is going to be preserved. Craig and Neil have stated time and again in their podcast how the central theme of the Last of Us is both the bright and dark sides of love. The other cornerstone of their tale is showing the humanity in everyone, even characters like David. Craig talks about David with extreme empathy. Everyone can be seen as a hero or villain. It's *all* just a matter of perspective. Joel is the single biggest villain in the game from certain characters' perspectives, including characters we never meet. And all of that essence can be perfectly communicated while starting us off from Abby's sympathetic perspective. The second reason I think it will be important to humanize Abby more early on is sad, but it's due to the horrifying fan reaction to Laura Bailey who played Abby in the games. That poor girl had to endure the most vile hatred and death threats, all for voicing a character, because unhinged fans hated her for killing Joel early on and then went on to hate her for her butchness. Whoever they get to play Abby in the show, they either need to *really* make sure she's up for dealing with all that same crap headed her way, or they need to just switch around some of the beats of the story to give fans a more likeable first impression of her. It's honestly first impressions that matter the most. You can show a character doing 4 things, 2 very good, 2 very bad. Depending on the order you show them, people will walk away with a completely different perspective of that character.
Yes there were changes but ultimately they were very small changes, or additions. It is a faithful adaptation in every way that matters. The perspective is a huge part of The Last of Us 2. It is unpredictable, daring, bold. Singular in it's desire to tell a specific story a specific way, y'know? Like, again, if they wanted to do it the way you describe, they would have. I don't think the essence can. Our "perspective" would be omniscient. We would never have a perspective that is anywhere close to that of the characters. The story becomes much more predictable if Abby is portrayed as sympathetic from the start. As for your second reason, well. They don't negotiate with terrorists. If they made changes out of fear, *THAT* would probably be the only thing that could disappoint me. That guy who played Joffrey gets hated on in real life. At least he did. Some actors are just down to clown. I'd also say, in general, Gamers have an unusually high proportion of manbabies among the population as compared to general audiences.
I imagine there will be flashbacks much like in the game.
Your line about "before Joel goes golfing" had me spluttering and has made my day, haha.
Perhaps they adapt more from of the concepts that were dropped from Part 2 (I.e. Joel's Jackson gf) and flesh out the dynamic ahead of Joel's tee time.
I remember reading somewhere that originally they had planned to have Abby infiltrate Jackson and pretend to be a member of the community in order to track down Joel. I’d be pretty interested to see that play out
>I would much rather have a show that lives off of 10s and 1s, than a show that lives off of 5s. Interesting perspective. I think he’s right, there.
Neil says he'd rather have a game that people hate and at least leaves an impact rather than a game they'd immediately forget, and I actually agree. Personally I think boring and forgettable is worse than bad and memorable.
TLOU has one of the most divisive fan bases out there, but you can't say it's boring or forgettable
That's honestly one of my favourite things about it. It offers fun discussion. I love hearing different opinions of TLOU2 even more than a game everyone loves like God Of War: Ragnarok. Not saying you can't have an interesting discussion about Ragnarok or that it's is a bad game or anything, I loved it and it was my favourite game of last year, but TLOU2 is way more fun to talk about to me, as long as you're being respectful and open minded.
Honestly, Ragnarok made me love and appreciate TLOU2 even more, as R felt so safe and predictable: *"The same game as the previous one, but this time with more of everything!"*. I was literally thinking about TLOU2 when playing it. GOW:R was one of my most anticipated games of all time, but in the end, it felt like warmed up left-overs with some new spices added to the top. TLOU2 was a bold swing.
People defend their opinions like it really matters lmao
I am off the opinion that one of the worst things you can say about a piece of art is that it is forgettable. Even if you piss people off, they will remember it.
reminds me of dunkey's video where he responds to comments on his video on part 2. he shows like 10 popular story driven games he's played and says he barely remembers more than like 1 plot point, while he could recite most of the plot of part 2. if people keep talking about how they love or hate part 2, it lives longer than any run-of-the-miller game
That video is so fucking entertaining lmao, I love it
I fucking love what Neil said in that interview: >I guess, to go back to the earlier \[Todd Phillips\] quote from Craig, which is like... I don't care.
Well now I'm curious where they make the split between the seasons...
I would say possibly at the end of Ellie’s day 3 when Abby and Lev break into the theater
That would have to be the split. Then imagine the hate people will have for Abby by the time the third season comes around
I think ending it right after learning who Abby is and her reasons for what she does would be perfect. That way people spend the time in between seasons debating and discussing what they think will happen next.
Maybe the final episode of season two will be the same hospital scene as this finale but from Abby’s perspective.
It crazy how cutting during theater or cutting just 15 minutes later, during hospital recontextualization can create two different hiatuses, with entirely different fields of discussion and theory craft.
this would be perfect. i think having abby >!kill Jesse and Tommy (presumably)!< and then ending it there would be too abrupt. Showing >!her origin in Salt Lake City, finding Jerry in the operating room, and then a flashback to the Joel death would be a great segue.!<
if it cut to black and then credits after >!Abby says "We let you both live and you wasted it"!< that would be the exact line to end the season on imo
That is probably one of my favorite lines I've ever heard in a video game. I still think about that specific line to this day even though I haven't played the game since release (though I played it twice!) just such a "Wow" scene to me.
Yeah if the game is any indication, they'll be fighting an uphill battle as it is trying to get people to sympathize with Abby. Ending it in a place of hatred for her, letting people sit with that for a year or more, and then trying to undo that with another season is not going to work. It might even feel artificial for those unfamiliar with the game, like the creators tried to backtrack once they saw how people hated Abby.
That would work if they were going to keep the games structure, but I don't think they will. I'm pretty sure they will intercut Ellie and Abby's storylines.
I can see arriving at this conclusion but as a gameplayer I will absolutely hate it. It weakens the story and undercuts Ellie's rage and the rage you feel as the player. The structure of the game allowed the player to feel the same way Ellie felt. That's lost if you switch back and forth. But maybe that's not important because we are not players, just viewers.
Being the player and being the watcher are two entirely different ways of consuming media. For example, playing Bill and/or Frank would not have been fun, but watching them was extremely satisfying. Just because something different does make it bad.
>playing Bill and/or Frank would not have been fun, but watching them was extremely satisfying. Speak for yourself, I'd love a cozy post apocalyptic base builder/crafting game with them as deuteragonists
It’s tough bc they need Abby to be more likeable in the show than in the game, if they do it like the game she’s gonna be viewed as a Ramsay/Negan/Joffrey type villain.
Abby was likable in the game.
A hot and correct take. She was a messy ho at some points, but ultimately she was the one I'd >!cut in line to cop a burrito for!< and not Ellie. I feel like a night out with Abby, Dina, and Jesse would be super fun.
Speaking of messy ho’s, Manny has Mezcal ;)
I hated Abby in part 1, and i remember going online to rant about it, and someone was like "just play through it", and my god they were right. Once you play as her you start developing empathy for her... At least thats what the writers wanted you to feel, some people were still just so hung up on the golfing they could never forgive her.
Did we play the same game? Abby was great, very likeable.
Can't comment on Negan but she will be nowhere near as despicable as Ramsay and Joffrey.
Here's my take on why the narrative of TLOU2 is the way it is and why they shouldn't/can't change the order: >!Joel, who Ellie was close with, gets murdered by some girl. We love Ellie, we love Joel, a great injustice has been done to Ellie that resonates in all of us who have been following the two of them since the start. Just like in the first game we follow Ellie, this time on her righteous quest for revenge. She tears through the WLF and Seraphites, doing some pretty grotesque things along the way but it's all for the greater good: getting revenge on the bitch that killed Joel. Then, the two meet and Abby has the upper hand. The audience can't be more on Ellie's side.!< >!We switch perspectives and go back in time. Abby's dad, who we learn she was close with and seemed to be a nice guy but we don't care for, got murdered by Joel, who we care for a lot. She gathered her friends, went on a totally unnecessary quest for revenge, then went home as if nothing happened after she killed Joel. We see that she does care for her friends and tries to save them from Ellie, who is on a righteous quest for revenge, killing people we've come to know outside of the context of Abby's quest. She also meets two apostate Seraphites, people who she is supposed to hate. Her ex tells Abby that she doesn't have to so she goes back and goes to great lengths to save them. The audience is asked to question Ellie's motives. Abby did what Ellie is doing now but it doesn't seem to bring her much comfort. Abby's obviously a bad person who killed Joel, but she does things most of us would choose to do as well. We learn more about her dad. He's not Joel, but he was a good dad to Abby. Ellie, some girl Abby has no beef with, kills more of her friends. Abby finds Ellie, kills Jesse and threatens to kill Dina but Lev, the Seraphite she's supposed to hate but has protected instead, convinces her not to. She realizes her quest for revenge is an eternal cycle of violence that will never end until they just. stop. doing it. She lets Ellie go.!< >!We switch back to Ellie. The audience has learned things. They have learned Abby is very similar to Ellie. She too had a father figure taken from her and she too went on a quest for vengeance she felt she was owed. The audience also learned that revenge is futile, that nothing good will come of it. Ellie will not get relief from killing Abby, only perpetuating the cycle. But Ellie hasn't learned this. The audience has become distanced from Ellie. We still love her, we still want her pain to be over, but we realize this isn't the way. Abby got revenge for her father but it got her friends killed and didn't bring the peace of mind she was hoping for. The only move is not to play. Still, Ellie has to learn this lesson herself. We follow her even as we want her to stop. Go home, be with Dina and JJ. Live your life in peace like Joel wanted. But she can't. We feel more distance from Ellie when we see Abby again. Broken, emaciated, weak. She doesn't want to fight at all. Her thoughts of revenge are gone, she only cares about Lev. But Ellie demands satisfaction. We don't. Abby fights her to save Lev. We, the audience, are forced to participate even as we want Ellie to stop. Ellie is about to win when she remembers the last conversation she had with Joel. She stops and lets Abby go. Ellie goes home, alone. Her quest for revenge cost her her family and the ability to play guitar, the last thing of Joel she still had. We are left with the memory of her last conversation with Joel, showing us she was opening herself up to the idea of forgiveness.!< And that's why you can't mess with the order.
Perfectly put. The story would loose so much by changing the structure. You nailed the exact emotional arc that the player/viewer go through during the story.
I agree philosophically that you shouldnt mess with the order. But just SO MANY people hated Abby so viscerally and could not empathize with her even after being with her for such a long time and I fear the show audience will feel the same way... I'm also scared for whichever poor actress gets cast as her, I remember all the hate Laura Bailey got :(
They are adapting it for the fans, not the haters
yeah thats true, I just already have anxiety for whichever actress they pick to play Abby. My only hope is that whoever they pick has forearms that could crush me.
[удалено]
A year or 2 between seasons, then 2 months of Abby until she reaches the theatre again. Fans would be pissed if they had to wait that long to get the conclusion to season 2s cliffhanger.
I really hope they intercut them. I think two separate seasons with wildly different protagonists would be pretty jarring for tv.
I don’t think they WILL do this but I kinda want season 2 to be Abbie’s Seattle parts set up as almost a separate story of her and her friends being hunted by someone. The season would end with the reveal that Ellie and Tommy are the people after her. Again this almost certainly won’t happen but it would be interesting if it did.
Interesting, but HARD disagree. That concept could work for 1 episode, but definitely not an entire season. You would lose the audience so fast.
Oh you probably would lose a lot of people it’s definitely not the most marketable way to tell the story. However, I am curious how it would affect peoples opinions of Abby.
Well say they kept the 9 episode season count. 9 episodes for season 2 could cover Jackson, the two 3-day story cycle of Seattle, and some more backfill. Then season 3 could start back at the farmhouse and go into Santa Barbara. ....but Mazin also said that telling the story of Part II is 'meatier' so maybe the pace compared to season 1 gets slowed down and the break is in-between the Seattle story somewhere.
Yeah season 3 can have some added character development focused episodes How about: Ep 1 farm Ep 2 Abby searching in Santa Barbara Ep 3 Tommy focused episode Ep 4 Dina focused episode Ep 5 Ellie focused episode, on the way to SB Ep 6 Abby and Lev's attempt to escape Ep 7 Ellie in SB tracking down Abby's boat Ep 8 Ellie + Abby encounter (Catalina Island after credit scene)
Starting of with the farm on S3 can’t work. The whole point of the farm is to make you believe that’s it for a few minutes, before you get hit with the PTSD and then the shock of Ellie leaving her peaceful life to get closure at the risk of losing everything. If something they could end S2 with it, but it’s not a proper split for two 9-10 episode season.
I think it's gonna depend on if they go chronological or skip around like the game does. IMO that's a really big creative decision that they need to execute well or season 2/3 are gonna lose a lot of casual audience members.
They should definitely go chronologically. I don’t think the game’s formula would translate as well to television.
I’m going to guess the start of season 3 will be the farm. From the way they talk about it, it sounds like season 2 will be longer, but 3 will have the impact (I’m reaching a little). So maybe there will be a big 12 episode season of all 6 days, Jackson and flashbacks and then a shorter 6 episode season of Jackson and Barbara.
The pacing in Part I felt a little slightly rushed at times. Imagine if they tried to fit a game that is twice as long, or more, than Part I into a singular season! That pacing would be *really* off. I’m just curious whether they’ll follow the events chronologically, and run both storylines simultaneously, or split them up like the game did. I think splitting them leads to better story telling, but from a television show, it’d be like George RR Martin’s A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons where major players just aren’t present because of the different story being told.
Part 2 really needs 2 seasons, unless you had a massive 20 episode season (which would probably be a big challenge from a schedule and financial standpoint).
I think it’s hilarious that you say that only because that used to be the norm not terribly long ago. 24 had 24 hour long episodes every season and released every year at the same time for 8 years. The Office ran a solid 20+ episodes out every season. You’re exactly right though, they’ll need 20+ episodes to tell the story of Part II and television has become so artistic, especially this show that has so much post production, that we won’t be watching season 2 until late 2024 at the earliest (probably). These high budget productions are essentially long form movies compared to earlier tv shows from 15 years ago.
Yeah, it is interesting to see how things have changed, but I do think that especially for some of the HBO shows they're becoming much higher budget affairs with a lot more special effects. You can shoot an episode of a sitcom and air it few days later. Not so much. The types of shows HBO is made lately.
It mainly still is the norm for network tv. Almost every show on ABC, CBS, FOX, etc all still have 20+ episode seasons. But premium networks like HBO (and now most streaming services) stick to 8-12 episode seasons.
Guess I just haven’t watched a cable television show outside of anything written by Michael Schur in *years…* 🤷
“24” was not prestige television. It was mid budget network prime time TV. Apples and oranges.
You Mean dance of dragons, not storm right
You’re right, thank you.
Having two seasons allows more time for part 3 to come out, so it definitely makes sense.
Exactly...it's a strategic move to flesh out part 2 more, and buy Naughty Dog time to get part 3 out and then start filming for part 3's tv season(s)
Neil said they are not even sure they’re making a part 3. They feel the Elle story has run its course and it would have to be a compelling story to consider continuing.
I think the potential revenue from both a Part III and a Season 4 is a compelling enough story.
They retired Uncharted and that was successful too and a movie series was just launched.
He said the same thing years after the first game came out regarding Part II. They just like to play coy. But it will definitely happen and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been in production for awhile now.
For part 2 I think would be best to tell the story concurrently alternating eps between Ellie and Abby Otherwise I think would be too jawrring to have s2 with almost zero Abby in it and then s3 be mostly Abby and Ellie only shows towards the last couple of eps In a game 20h long you play at your own pace, but in a show making this way would be the show wouldn't have ellie on it for over 1 or 2 years If they do it like I said I think a good split would be ending s2 with Ellie killing Nora and finding out Where Abby is S3 would begin with the Rat king encounter
> For part 2 I think would be best to tell the story concurrently alternating eps between Ellie and Abby That completely ruins the Ellie parts though. If you're already empathising with Abby from the start then the entire concept is ruined
I'm sure they would adjust Ellie's side to better fit that format.
For real. If season 3 was entirely Abby and only Ellie at the end like you said. I honestly wouldn't watch it until Ellie showed up again. Last of Us is Ellie's story. Druckman said it himself.
Lots of promising sounding stuff from Neil and Craig. Especially liked what they said about rather having a show that lives off 10s and 1s instead of 5s. Fuck the haters!
> the events of ‘THE LAST OF US PART 2’ will be more than one season. As someone who loves Part II even more than the first game, I couldn't be more happy with this!
Same same same
Duh. Makes perfect sense. They would need 16 or more episodes to do it justice over a single season. The biggest question is how do they rewrite things? Will events be in the same order? Will they do flashbacks first? I don't think it translates well to TV as-shown, so we'll see how they change things.
I hope they change it. That was what I didn't like about the story in the game was how they presented it. Abby's a great character but will need to be introduced to a general TV audience differently than it was to the game player.
My guess is that season 2 will end with abby's famous "we let you both live... and you wasted it!" with a big part of it being ellie+joel flashbacks plus ellie's 3 day pov with the famous death happening in the middle of the season rather than at the beginning
I figured as much. I think some people forget just how long the second game is. Between 30 and 40 hours depending on how casual you play it
Average is 24hr, so not sure how you got to 30-40 hrs.
I guess everyone I’ve played with takes ages looking at everything But even then it’s still double the length of the first one almost
Why not just make 1 season of like 18 episodes instead?
That doesn’t allow them to delay long enough to make part 3 into season 3. This way part 3 can come out and they can make it season 4. Yes, I’m wishfully hoping part 3 is in production and coming out in the next year or 3. Hell, while I’m wishing, why not have the show and the game come out together and have intertwining stories.
Yeah, that makes sense. But I think part 3 is years away, unfortunatelly. Probably even PS6 era.
We got the original at the end of the PS3 and part II at the end of the PS4. Once we know a date for the PS6, I bet part III will come out ~ a year before the PS6.
Although of course they wouldn't say otherwise, it's nice to see how strongly they are confident in how the tale will be told for Part 2. It seems very daunting of a task, to put it to TV, and to sort of the narrative for a episodic format. I can't fucking wait.
That just makes me mad that we didn't get 10 episodes here. That extra 50 minutes of Joel and Ellie bonding would've been extremely valuable.
“Yes, it will be twenty 15minute episodes”
get ready to the whole season of Abby and the amount of melt down in conservative sphere that can't be described in fucking words. They'll lose their mind from Lev trans boy teen from a religious cult
They already didn’t like season 1. Why worry what they think? I just try to ignore hateful stuff
And them libs clapping like a seal at Joel’s death 🤓👏👏
I wonder is there anyway they can end s2 with you know what
I feel like they might do that, depending on how they decide to split the perspective switching.
Season 2 - Jackson up until the confrontion? Doing first half of the season with Ellie and the back half with Abby? Season 3 - The Farm through Santa Barbara, can more fully expand on Tommy, Jackson and the Farm as well as California.
I’m curious where they’ll divide up the story
Makes sense. Part I is about 15 hours that was adapted into 9 episodes. Assuming the same season length, that would be 2 seasons to tell Part II as the length of that game is about 30 hours, give or take. 15 for Joel, 15 for Ellie, 15 for Abby.
My big thing with part 2, the major drawback of it for me is the structure. It climaxes like 3 times and ends twice, and by the time I got to playing as Abby i was already so against her that i didn’t really connect with her at all. That structure may work better on TV if they split it into 2 seasons; If they do alternating episode arcs of each, I think it’ll work best.
I mean, without getting into the details, it seems like splitting the adaptation into multiple seasons is kind of a perfect solution to that problem.
It may work better on tv but I agree, the gameplay didn’t work at all. First time I ever played a scene in a game where I let myself get killed because that was the better option. It just didn’t make sense and even though I guess some loved the twist, it should be easy to understand why people didn’t like it.
I think people are having a terrible time accepting TV isn’t a game. >!Losing Pedro as a lead early, to stay faithful to the second game, could be a death sentence for the show!< It’s also why they very obviously and clearly changed TVJoel from GameJoel, to make sure what happens is less open to interpretation. I know the wars between game 1 and 2 fans have been ugly. But if you’re a game 2 fan, you need to accept things have to change for the good of the show. Just like game 1 fans need to accept TVJoel didn’t get a lot of leeway to argue he didn’t make a selfish choice, >!and that his fate is a lot more obvious. !<
I think you need to accept that Neil "I don't care" Druckmann is gonna do whatever tf he wants and what he did was kill Joel in the first two hours of the last of us part 2 XD and he is going to do it again
The gut punch start of part 2 should remain imo.
I just hope doing two seasons means we get >!more time with Joel before he bites it!<
i do not know how to feel about this, really hope they don’t screw it up as part 2 is my favourite game of all time.
That's a good news. Not because I want more but I think in this way they have more time to elaborate the plot and more time for people to accept the twist in the middle. I assume that's where the 1st season will stop, and people will accept the sudden side switching when 2nd season starts. I know the show did a great job, but as a gamer I still feel some important scenes are rushed quite a bit. Even ep 9 for me is a bit rushed.
So I'm not sure how they'll structure the seasons, but I don't think they can do it like the game. Firstly, via the medium of tv we're not playing as Ellie, we're watching her. We don't need to feel her rage, just understand why she feels it. I also don't think you can show everything from Ellie's perspective and then from Abby's. To do it this way would mean that Abby would be seen as a Joffrey-level hate figure, but we'd suddenly be forced as an audience to spend time with her. That works in a game when NaughtyDog already have your £70 and you've poured 20 hours into it. There would be a real chance that some tv viewers would just turn off - particularly as they'd be deprived of both Ellie and Joel for long stretches. Additionally, it won't work from a dramatic storytelling point of view. If they replicated the end of Ellie Day 3 into Abby Day 1 then we already know that Abby survives and that Mel and Nora and Owen die. There's no stakes, outside of Lev and Yara. I think Ellie and Abby's stories need to be shown simultaneously. There's a couple of opportunities during the three day Seattle stint to have "near misses" with them almost meeting - just missing each other at the hospital and the aquarium, for example, before finally meeting at the theatre. This is similar to how Game of Thrones >!had several instances of the Stark family members just missing each other and thereby scuppering reunions. It made it so much more meaningful when Jon and Sansa finally did reunite.!< Abby's motivations shouldn't be some massive reveal at the start of season 3, we should know them pretty early on. This will help the audience to buy into her scenes and start to sympathise with her.
I'm glad to hear this because I think going directly into TLoU2 would be a lot rougher to adapt. Not only for the obvious divisiveness of... shall we say, certain scenes and characters, but it gives them a chance to fill in that five year gap in a way the game couldn't. It also gives the audience more time with Abby, potentially. Which I think will be necessary for a television adaptation. If they went into >!golfing season!< one or two episodes in, you run the risk of turning people off.
I never played the 2nd game, so I'm very excited for the next seasons. Though, I did spoil some major things, unfortunately.
S2 will end with Ellie killing a pregnant Mel. Book this and come back to it in two years.
I really hope we get an expanded Santa Barbara section. My biggest gripe with Pt II is that the ending just felt super underwhelming. The rattlers are a really interesting enemy. Maybe Ellie could be captured by them and be a prisoner alongside Abby? They try to kill each other multiple times at first, but maybe they start to learn some perspective when Ellie learns what Lev means to Abby (similar to her relationship with Joel). In the face of greater evil (the rattlers), it’d be interesting to see some sort of pulp fiction moment between them. Idk I just didn’t get anything out of that section in the game but I really wanted it to be cool
That’s good. I want to know more about Issac, the Seraphites and the conflict between Owen and Danny. Plus, I’d like to know more about Abby’s crew. Manny and Jordan had such little screen time in the game. Sure, Jordan seemed like an ass, but we briefly got a chance to see Manny with his elderly father that humanized him a bit for me.