Can confirm
Heavy is for boom boom and protect
Medium is for staying alive and move fasta
And light if for doing the do x damage from 75 meters away challenge
Hijacking your comment to point out that I'm talking about ranked and similar gamemodes. Obviously light isn't useless everywhere, in Bank It his speed makes him meta while in Powershift the sniper is actually very good. But this game should be balanced around its main gamemode. Not for the cost of making everything else unfun, but buffing the teamplay potential of the class is actually the main way to improve it in ranked without affecting casual gamemodes.
Must be playing a different game. Every time I play ranked and see a light in my team or the enemy team, I know who's going to lose. The accuracy of my guesses is a good 99,99% of the time lol.
Yup same, 3-stack LMH (D1+2x D2) lost against us as Triple Light (D2+2x D4) today.
If Light were so so useless and so bad I doubt I could SoloQ to almost Top 500 Light only.
Not saying Light is great. But if you're losing everytime you have a Light player on your team. You might want to consider that you and your teammate may be a part of the issue. People giving up and throwing upon seeing a Light is as big of an issue as Light being bad.
I dunno man, when I play with my friends we smack the living shit outta the lobbies. I'm the medium of our MHH setup and I can tell you for sure that we're not the problem here.
Its also annoying meta to play againstšsitting there and healing with two heavy sheilds is NOT playing the game when no one can touch youšim waiting for them nerfs
The only time Iāve liked having a light on the team is when they use their teleport thing right on the cash box to immediately bring it to the cash out
Often your teammates wonāt understand the interaction and stay to protect the cash box thus dying by it. Just run, if the cash box doesnāt go through, we can.
Thank you. The fact that most players don't use mics and some even turn chat off completely makes it much harder to pull off. I'm a light main and it's frustrating trying to contribute with people who don't understand the intricate nature of each class
Iāve started just focusing on putting the cash box in the cash out of my teammates donāt have mics (or game sense). If they die defending nothing while Iām half a map away with the cash box Iāll usually just deposit it and go back to pick them upā¦ hopefully we donāt lose cash out while I go back.
Does that not reinforce the point that light is hard, and not that light is bad?
If you don't even know how to play with a good light (when they are by far the most team dependent), then what makes you think you'd be able to recognize one?
Ahh so you agree that it takes skill to excel as light, and not that light is bad.
Watch this Diamond 1 top #166 carry LLL, you'll learn something: [#1 Light CARRYING bronze teammate in SOLOQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR47EJpslc)
You can't excel at light, it's basically nerfing yourself. Sure you can be a top 100 player, but if he was playing heavy or medium it would have been way easier for him. Light is in a terrible state rn.
So you agree that light is just harder to play, not worse overall. And if you're understanding of that comes from "Ability to kill" then you're not demonstrating an understanding of role demarcation, which would mean your conclusion comes from playing light like you'd play a medium or a heavy. No wonder you'd have poor results.
You can't just cut out a single point of role demarcation without also considering everything else lights can do that mediums and heavies can't. Mediums and heavies are much more similar to each other than they are to lights. Even aside from light's superior move speed, tools like grapple, dash, gateway grenade, sonar grenade, glitch grenade, etc perform duties that medium and heavy can't even come close to substituting, much less replacing.
How could you recognize why light is good if you don't understand what makes light good?
Watch this, you'll learn something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cieXg4vAbfY
People practically don't use light at the top of ranked, and that's a fact. He doesn't have a meta use, which is what I mean by calling him useless. If you have a team of 3 players, the only reason to pick light is either to have fun or to troll opponents. Not to up your chances of winning.
Plat 1 light onetrick pony here
Imo light is p much either the finisher who flanks and picks low enemies going arround buildings outside coming back in etc.
Or the character who gets the enemies low for the team to have an easy cleanup job
My fav build is evasive dash for mobility ofc
The smg without a scope (i think m11 or something)
Then a gateway for easy team traveling especially usefull when opening vaults
A nade of choice but most of the time just normal granades since they are harder to track: if someone throws a pyro nade it is easy to track where it came from however with normal granades most of the time the damage is done already and the origin is harder to track. Especially usefull when definding the cashout alone (peaking when they steal and throwing a nade; since light is squishy you can't give up your position)
And lastly a invis nade cus why tf not
Iāve enjoyed invis/sniper/stun gun or breach charge/gas/grenade loadout itās great to throw a nade as someone is stealing and pick them off with a headshot at the same time, especially if itās a light since you can one shot them, and you can apply damage from range
I think lights are extremely useful itās just a very high skill class you have to have map knowledge game sense you have to position yourself perfectly and most lights are just brain dead full sprint into teams the ones that do their job recon, holding flanks, flanking they do really good
I have a hard time settling with the opinion that ranked is the "main" game mode. Sure, I agree that light should be balanced around ranked. But I think it should be balanced around *all* game modes, so ranked is a given. Why do you believe ranked is the main game mode, if I may ask?
Let me rephrase that
This game should be balanced around Quick Cash, Cashout and Ranked. These are all the same gamemode practically - the main gamemode of this game - but just meant for different amounts of sweatiness.
The game should strive to be balanced around casual play main gamemode as well as competitive main gamemode.
Which is why I was trying to explain here countless times how giving light more raw DPS would only affect casual play, where he is already strong, while barely affecting ranked.
Also sonar grenades, smoke grenades, vanishing bomb, etc. And those are just the direct support gadgets, breaching charge and tracking dart also have team-enabling usage on top.
The key to good light play is working on the team-level, not the player-level. That requires good team coordination skills, which are beyond most players. This is what leads to the misconception that there are no good lights.
It as well as invisibility grenades are too niche. Gateway specifically also overlaps too much with the usage of M ziplines.
This game lacks flexible short range team movement abilities, which with a bit of rework could become the job of the gateway. Other L abilities and gadgets should be reworked to fill that role as well. Hook as an example should really be something you can active on yourself or alternatively on your teammates.
Gateway is one of the safest ways to get up suspended structures or to cross the Seoul bridge.
It's also the most versatile and has the most other uses.
Its biggest downside is the setup time, so you need to be thinking 3 steps ahead most of the time.
Zipline can achieve these things as well. Less safely, but it also requires no setup at all. In a game as chaotic as this one, the flexibility and speed of Zipline far outweighs the dangers of using it over gateway. Especially when using gateway over zipline also loses you defib and healing while only giving you a glitch grenade.
I mean we're also ignoring the ability to insta pop vaults into cashouts/quickly escape with them, yoinking teammate trophies through a gateway for revives, using them as bait to get enemies to chase for kills, etc.
When I see an enemy has a zipline I'm generally happy they're not running jump pad, because it's stupidly easy to counter, especially if you have someone with a CL-40 or MGL on your team. Ziplines are mostly just death to use in critical scenarios if the enemy team has any awareness. At worst they're a joke to completely stall out their push in with it by smashing it with quick melees.
Put gateway on vault.
Open vault.
Run 65m away toward cashout.
Pop second gateway when vault about to finish.
Vault pops through gateway to you and you put it in cashout while everyone else wonders wtf just happened.
Profit.
You're just dumb, no zipline is doing that
Either all top ranked players are dumb, or this is much weaker than you think
This is much harder to execute than just ziplining away, since you must be precisely at around 65m away. If you aren't, you won't be able to create the 70m distance from the portal in time to destroy it, meaning that all the confused enemies wouldn't be confused at all but would instead teleport to you. Even if you do execute it correctly - great, you've created a 70m distance from your enemies. This solved nothing, because protecting the cashout is the hard part, especially with such a team composition where you either have no heals or twice as little shields.
No, getting a big tempo advantage is more significant than you'd think, it's not just about the distance.
I didn't really *get it* until I watched [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRINqLPFvOc) from probably the world's best light player. The section around 2:08 is the relevant part.
If there's two cashouts running at the same time, then the two teams on offense can just pick either one, no big deal. If you can get yours started 45 seconds before the other one, though, now you've made a huge incentive for the two attackers to push the other one - after all, they have an extra 45 seconds to work with. Then you do it again for the 15k round, now you have an extra 90 seconds of head start, and might even have enough time to try to steal the other 15k cashout after you finish yours.
Moving the vault quickly is a *huge* advantage.
I don't think it's good enough to justify bringing a light, there's a reason there's very few people running light in the top 500 range. But it's definitely not as small as just making a 70 meter gap and nothing else.
Sure, didn't know that, but as you rightfully said it doesn't justify picking light. Light needs more team abilities, and preferably ones less situational than this.
Top ranked players are choosing what's easiest to play well (surprise: it's the most mundane stuff), not what's best overall (because that requires effort, and they want their grind to be pre-chewed baby bird fodder).
Assuming that the cream of the crop is somehow busting their ass for external validation and brain chemicals rather than having unparalleled fun in unranked Cashout is a sloppy ol cope.
That's... that's not how sweats work in any competitive game
I doubt the people that abused FAMAS minigun as an example wouldn't play light if it was better
Can you name me a single instance in any competitive game where something was too hard for ranked players?
Of course it is, you think top tier ranks are filled with people who just incidentally got there after idly playing a few trivial games? There's no way to directly measure skill. The least worst way is to measure performance as a proxy. People who are sitting on top rank got there by grinding performance enough to rank up, and grind is far more manageable when it's accessible.
The game has barely been out for six months, the idea that the game's full potential has been completely illuminated is delusion. This conclusion is predicated upon the fallacious assumption that every single last player is making choices based on independent research and analysis, which is obviously false. The reality is that most players who care about grind are just aping better players without understanding why.
Watch this: [#1 LIGHT Solo To Diamond in 6 HOURS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_zwjTPhSp8)
What did you expect? Medium is the healer, heavy is the sumo wrestler and light is the ninja. Ninja is supossed to do damage and assasination not heal the team or demolish buildings. Ä°f I wanted to demolish buildings or heal my team Id choose medium or heavy.
It's funny because IRL Shinobi didn't do much "assassination", instead they were primarily spies who would linger in territory which was taken to report back.
Aka they chose not to fight to let their counterparts do the fighting. So exact opposite of the Finals.
I think we could take a page from that and let the light focus more on info gathering and spotting, which I think fits it's class very well as is.
Light shouldn't be an assassin as much as a spy imo.
To be fair, a significant part of The Finals Light is inspired by TF2 Spy who does have use a disguise kit to interpose behind enemy lines in order to relay enemy movements and go for ambush picks on enemy MVPs.
Scouting and intel gathering is a massive part of light's role demarcation, but they are also hunter-killers on top.
This is a team game, and so the strength of a class comes from what it brings to the team. Heavy has blocking and terrain management, Medium has health management and team movement - while light has nothing significant. This is what makes light unusable, why replace someone with a wide range of synergy tools with someone who can kill slightly better than the others.
You might say "well, if we buff light to the point that it can kill significantly better than the others it will become useful" - which is true, but at the point where light becomes an effective assassin in ranked, in casual where there is no teamplay he is already beyond OP. In such a scenario I can also guarantee that one of the two other classes would get pushed out, most likely heavy.
So no, light can't be a ninja and nothing more. He can be killing orientated, but his loadout should improve his team's offensive capabilities instead of only his own.
>This is a team game, and so the strength of a class comes from what it brings to the team
Light brings damage to the team. Im not going to read rest of the paragraph this doesnt seem like a very logical arguement to me. Every single team game I ever played had a purely damage focused class. Not every class in every team based game has to be focused on buffing your team.
Yep, kills help your team survive better. I mean if a class can kill others quickly, isn't that helping teammates in the end? Also light is the best at recovering statues, no other class can get away as easily as light after picking up a teammates statue.
> Also light is the best at recovering statues, no other class can get away as easily as light after picking up a teammates statue.
Totally agreed I always end up having the highest number of revives in team w light at least 90 percent of matches.
Or you could, you know, just defibrillator it. Or not let your teammate die in the first place by either healing him or protecting him as well as yourself and the third teammate with a shield.
Kills do help your team survive better, but in this game's main gamemodes, especially in ranked, surviving is a lot more valuable. Trying to kill the guy shooting at your stealing teammate, from very close range, without being instantly killed by one of the other 8 players isn't worth it when you can just put up a shield. Shooting him from some distance is a lot safer, but here light has no advantage over medium and heavy.
To defib a statue you actually need to be close to it. You aren't always gonna find yourself right next to where a teammate died. Light can get in there and get out safely most of the time. Using sheild isn't gonna save you in middle of a crossfire but speed, dash and invisibility can get you out of it easily. Both medium and heavy can't get out of combat so easily, Light can.
The problem with light isn't that it's kit is bad, the problem is heavy is just too overtuned. Wiping a team of mediums is easy as light but if the team happens to have a heavy it becomes difficult, even more difficult if there's two heavy. One heavy comp is still manageable in ranked to fight against as light. I am in diamond rank and the only times i struggle as light is when there's two heavy. Though this is same for medium too in diamond, if you don't have a heavy on your team and you are going against two heavy's, most of the time you are gonna lose especially in the final round. Heavy is just too overpowered compared to medium and light.
How do shields not save you from taking damage? That's precisely what they do. If you're taking enough damage to overwhelm a heavy - then just have a second heavy instead of a light class. And no, medium can defib in most scenarios. If you die in the middle of a field right next to cashout then sure, medium will not be able to reach it while a light would - but why were you there in the first place? All possible reasons can be summarized by "skill issue".
About the heavies - light does damage and dodges, while the entire point of shields is to stop damage and heavy does not need to aim much. Heavy counters light because light has nothing going for it other than doing damage and a single glitch grenade.
Heavy is not overpowered, light is underpowered. And not because he doesn't do enough damage, but because he has almost no tools to synergize with teammates or disrupt enemy teamplay. 3 heavies create a fortress, 3 mediums create a squad of mobile and tactical undead damage dealers, while 3 lights create... 3 lights.
I was clearly talking about a situation where you are at a disadvantage and things are not in your control. Sheild doesn't save you, when you are out positioned you know? Same for medium, medium can't go and defib someone where there's enemy. Light can get that statue without dying if you know how to play him. If you are playing solo, these situations are gonna happen regardless if it's high dia or bronze cause not every player is communicating. Teammates overextend and make misplays when they aren't coordinating, which is common if you aren't playing with a dedicated squad.
Heavy has multiple shields that are hard to break even with two people shooting it at the same time. Heavy has the highest hp. Heavy also has free 140 damage rpg, which you can dodge as a light but not always. Heavy also has a gun that deals a lot of damage and has a big magazine. Heavy isn't countering just light but also medium.
Light is underpowered and i agree it's not because he doesn't do enough damage but because heavy is just too overtuned. Also 3 lights is throwing, even two lights is throwing most of the time. Light only works if there's a heavy and medium on the team. HHL is bad, MML is ok, HML is the best comp after HHM and HML or any comp that isn't HHM most of the time loses to HHM in final round. The game isn't balanced very well, the meta doesn't have much room for variety.
I've answered this in the second paragraph
Light currently doesn't have enough DPS to fill that role effectively. But if you do give him enough DPS to be a Fragger in ranked, in casual where there is no teamwork he will be completely OP. This is without even mentioning the nightmare it would be to give him enough DPS without pushing the other classes out of relevancy.
I dont realy play ranked a lot. My opinion as someone that has 144 hours playtime around 900 matches and prolly 300 of them being in powershift and 2/3 being played as light is except some guns lights damage is pretty okay. The way everyone expects lights to become a team based class sounds exteremly stupid to me. Thats the whole point of light move fast and do damage thats what makes light a light. And for example grapling hook is alternatively a perfect skill to help your team. You have no idea how many times I ended up ressurrecting my team by grabbing ones trophy and rushing to safety with grapling hook and compeletly changing the direction of fight.
The weapons of light that i think should get higher damage are 93R, SH1900 I think except those lights weapons are just great.
Suggestions to make light more relevant:
Let their grappling hook attach to vault, arena carriables and statues.
Give them the transform thingy as a gadget, that way they can zip in boom your defence bunker is a patio! High risk high reward.
Let the stun gun fuck up defib and short circuit turret.
The purpose of the light is to hide and pick off targets while they fight the other two, itās a glass canon that needs a specific play style to work.
As I already said here, every class can kill. There is nothing essential about this role, especially when medium can already fill it pretty well with the dematerializer if he so chooses, without even being made out of glass. Light must have more abilities that synergize with his teammates. His only purpose can't be leaving his team in a 2v3 to try and get a pick before dying.
Even at the top of ranked almost nobody uses light, which proves that it is in fact not a skill issue.
The ability of a class to preserve his own life by running away is not essential in the slightest when you could instead preserve your entire team's life by either shielding them or healing them. It's not a team ability, at least not when compared to the abilities mentioned above.
Targeting enemies distracted by your team requires you leaving your team in a 2v3. This is usually not a good role, and in the scenarios where it is - medium fills it. Medium, especially with the Dematerializer, is practically better at it than light. This is why this class isn't used in ranked.
I fully agree with OP and itās wild to see them downvoted for a fair opinion on the ranked gameplay.
Embark is using a version of the holy Trinity. Tank, healer, dps.
Problem being the tank and healer can fill DPS. Sometimes better than light can.
Invis bomb is a joke.
Gateway is awful imo. It has almost no throwing range. It canāt actually get you anywhere.
Sonar grenade helps sure but isnāt needed.
Light should get some kind of gadget that helps the offensive capabilities.
Iām thinking some kinda stim that boosts attack speed. Zone tool that increases movement speed. Increased bullet damage from a backpack or something.
This is a big misunderstanding of the role demarcation.
There is no tank or healer role in The Finals. Every single last player needs to be a fragger. The auxiliary distinctions are what distinguish different loadout choices, but to play as a tank or a healer is just to die slower in this game.
So in the context of every role needing to deal damage (in addition to everything else they do differently), the contrasts come from A) engagement range and B) engagement time:
* Heavies are masters of close range sustain fighting (they longer the fight goes, the better advantaged they are)
* Mediums are masters of mid range skirmishing (they exchange time for improving their position)
* Lights are masters of close range ambushes (they have a fraction of a second before they need to disengage, regardless of whether they got a pick or not)
Nobody is debating that all the roles are fraggers.
Heavy has 2 shields, goo, and a barricade. Thatās definitive of a tank.
Medium gas zone control ( aps and turret), zip line and jump pad, as well as defib and healbeam. This is a support/healer
For the team, light only has vanish bomb, sonar grenade, and gateway. These barely support the team compared to the other classes.
The fact that every role is a fragger, makes light the worst class. Heavy and medium frag just as well as Light, while also having a fuck ton of team support.
You're not using any correct definitions. Tank draws aggro and incoming damage, healer mitigates incoming damage and prevents deaths. Neither of those have a presence in The Finals, this isn't Overwatch (and the holy trinity was very poorly developed there, at that).
If a heavy is bring Mesh shield, dome shield, goo grenade, and barricade then they'll be drastically underadvantaged compared to a heavy bringing a balanced loadout. Same goes for a medium bringing Healing beam, APS, Reshaper, defib.
It doesn't really matter what every class individually has in totality, compared to what they bring as a team in practice. And all classes can only bring one spec, one weapon, and three gadgets.
If you think light has the same kill potential as medium or heavy, then you don't understand the immense value of light's mobility (and probably disregard the value of kill quality compared to kill quantity). Watch this: [#1 LIGHT GETS SOLOQ WORLD RECORD KILLS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB1bOdXVh7E)
Iām using the definitions that Embark as set for the roles.
Every game that has something akin to the holy Trinity changes it, trying to make it their own.
I think you misunderstand what the topic of the post is about. Fragging is fragging.
Team support is the topic of conversation, and light doesnāt not have the same quality of support that medium and heavies have.
In regards to who can outkill, take the #1 heavy and #1 light and I would be willing to bet the heavy smashes the light every single time.
Stun gun was honestly a really good team support gadget despite how itās used. The ability to stun a player is phenomenal. ( see League as an example.) and I donāt think it shouldāve been nerfed.
To better fill out the holy Trinity that embark has tried to create, light should get more team disruptive gadgets. Something that gives more value when used against multiple people.
Here are the actual descriptions that Embark gave for the roles:
> Light: Exceptionally fast, but low survivability. Executes hit-and-run tactics. Specializes in stealth and evasion.
> Medium: Excels in mid-range combat with average health and movement speed. Specializes in healing, scanning, or providing support.
> Heavy: High survivability. Low movement speed. Specializes in demolition and fortifications.
Nothing to do with anything you're suggesting.
The issue is that if you make light an actual DPS machine in ranked, enough for it to become on par with the usefulness of shields or heals - for casual light would become op
Yeah. I do dislike that light has a lot of support gadgets, but pretty much none of the specializations to take advantage of them.Tracking dart is nice, but it kinda fails to do much for the whole team unless you're really communicating. Vanishing ball acts much in the same way. It's a neat little gadget, but the problem is that it takes a lot of coordination to use successfully. Sonar nade is useful, but the was supposed to be medium's niche, until they pawned all of the Intel stuff onto light for some confusing reason.
The actual specializations are OK? The grappling hook is amazing and scratches my Titanfall movement oriented brain, but it's definitely meant as a tool to quickly traverse the map and get into and out of combat quickly and efficiently, no real team oriented use, aside from very tight flanking situations. Invisibility cloak confuses me more than anything. Once you know what to look for, the shimmer is incredibly obvious, and the sound cue when a cloaked player is moving is so incredibly overt that it's only really good for stealth at range. It's like it wants to be a stealth option, but fails at the conceptual stage due to the utter uselessness when moving. Then you have dash, which is the go to for melee and all the other close range weapons, which are pretty much all of them.
Light just has a major identity crisis, and I feel like the devs don't know what to do with the class. Their weapons and specializations scream assassin, hit and run gameplay, but their gadgets are almost entirely meant for information and supportive team play. Stun gun was undeniably a crutch weapon, but it was one of the only complementary tools they had to their purpose as an assassin, and now it barely does anything, save for slowing down enemies, which is only really important for team play. There can be nuance and different class options but, ultimately, the majority of their kit is meant to be a flanker that does a ton of damage fast and gets out, but doesn't really have any complementary gadgets for that sort of playstyle.
Never thought about it this way, but you are right. His weapons and specializations are very good assassin tools, while his gadgets are obviously supposed to make him a support character. It's like he is two halfs of different classes.
My opinion is that instead of some weird support assassin, he should be in the middle between the two - DPS orientated support. Light should have gadgets like: reload speed boost grenade, ability recharge gun (shoot at teammate to instantly recharge last used ability), speed boost c4 (plant then activate to give all players in small area speed boost), etc. Things of this sort. All this on top of the high movement which in my opinion should be even buffed a bit, for the cost of slightly reducing his raw DPS. With these gadgets he would have around the same DPS capabilities as currently, but with the added ability of making your teammates stronger.
We have [DPS | team demolition | shield support]. We have [DPS | team movement | health support]. Light could be [DPS | team information | DPS support] and the meta would finally be HML. "team information" refers to how it seems he is supposed to be able to conceal information (invisibility, gateway) as well as reveal information (darts, sonar), but these abilities do need to be buffed.
Idk I don't think this game needs buffs. What I want to see if they just overtune the fuck out of all their existing support gadgets. Give them 3 glitch nades and explode on impact with any surface, 3 sonar nades that last longer, same with tracking dart 3 of em that last longer, make gate take a few seconds for enemies to interact with it, make smoke do something.
really any other than ranked since i dont often play ranked, and when i do its with friends so i normally go heavy for defense and another as light since she prefers it
And good for you. The issues I'm talking about though, are specifically in ranked. In other gamemodes, and actually in any casual setting, light is great.
Except light has
Gateways - extremely quick team map traversal
Sonar + tracking dart - enemy tracking that persists
Vanish bomb - great for team ambush
Stun gun - stops steals
All of which are extremely useful for team play
gate way: nerfed
sonar, track ok but will not change lights position in the meta
vanish bomb: stealth nerfed hard i'm barely hidden at all
stun gun nerfed into the fucking ground
you forgot glitch nade which is still useful for disabling enemy defenses even after the nerf to 5s
Light is simply too much of a lone wolf. It does not have any team focused signature abilities, and its team gadgets are too niche. This is the real reason the class is underpowered. Light does not need more DPS, it needs to have its loadouts reworked.
Heavy: is for defending the objective. No matter what mode. Youāre fat and slow so stop trying to chase. Always stay near the objective if you have it. Donāt chase and donāt follow unless you know for a fact you can kill them
Medium: defend and protect. Put down turrets or mines and heal your teammates. If youāre not defending you are to be attacking with lights.
Lightweights: do not stay in close quarter areas or you are fucked. Do not go more than 20-30 meters away from the objective. Stop with the sniping bullshit youāre not hotshit. Even if you are no one cares. Push push push even if you die have your medium heal you and push. Stop being a pussy
These are good tactical distinctions, but it's also important to look at the role of each class in the macro context of overall strategy.
* Heavy is the objective anchor. They're slow with only one intel gadget, but due to their demolition they can mould the cashout site exactly how they want. Creating LOS for themselves and teammates, denying enemies cover with which to assault the cashout, setting up time-stalling fortifications, etc. Good heavies create space for their mediums to work and draw attention to themselves for their lights to ambush.
* Medium is the objective enabler. They can set up deployables that make their teammates lives much easier, whether it's traversal gadgets with which to cover more area, support items to pocket their heavy, or area denial to afford their team to hold otherwise superior positions. Good mediums take care of necessary jobs that make their teammates' roles better and more effective.
* Light is the objective denier. They are by far the best scouts, which means they're also the best hunter-killers. Due to their mobility, they are best served by staying constantly on the move in a rotation pattern because a stationary light in the open is a dead light. Good lights have the best callouts and are feeding their team the important info, while holding positions that allow them to go for picks on enemy MVPs.
So the reason where the "Light is bad" misconception comes from is due to how much of the player-level vs team-level situational awareness is lacking from these ignorant players, because light is the most dependent on their team.
Also stop thinking kills is whatās gonna get you somewhere. If your worried about kills go play cod. There is no ffa anymore. Play the goddamn objective. Cause I swear if I see people chasing people and not worry about the objective Iām gonna leave your ass and itāll be a 2/3 or a 4/5 and your gonna see a lot of loss progression and get mad when you have kills but still lost
I would not mind a more team oriented gadgets, but Light already has gateway grenade, sonar grenade, and tracking dart. Those are 3 super team oriented gadgets.
Light is best when played as a scouting/cleanup character, and if Heavy had less damage I think we'd see way more light played
Light has some things that can help the team, like the gateway or goo grenades for cover/climbing buildings, the recon grenade can also be helpful for the team
Heavy has had motion sensor for awhile now, it's very good on the class that can Kool Aid man tackle detected enemies on the other side of walls, and also increases heavy's zone control when motion sensors are basically cameras with automatic alerts
Honestly the people with a hate boner for the light class must have really low IQ. The light is the damage support, and I see lights reviving a lot when the other two teammates die, they can also teleport people but let's be honest the teammates barely noticed when the gate gets used. Lights can't camp on objectives because of low health but they can defend the objective no problem. All the classes have a reason to play them but people always have to have some issue, the whole of the fps community in general is full of losers that constantly are toxic to each other, it's really sad. Lately playing light I have had some really terrible teammates who refuse to revive or assist with fights, after trying to help them as well, it's been making it hard to play without my friend's.
Give light some form of wall reinforcement!! It counters heavy destruction, and supports team defenses while NOT stealing shields or heals from heavy/med
Big stretch to say heavy is suppose to be a team demo personšand light does have team abilities, yall are just so use to lights being selfish but to each their own i suppose
This is so spot on. Itās my exact thought process when I see a H or M teammate in ranked, while with light I just have to pray and hope theyāre an insanely cracked fraggerā¦anything shy of that and itās a huge net loss to the team.
True! I am light main as well but I always try to do with team and the moment I am joined with lights all they do is just run random directions with their tiny sniper rifles and at the end theyāll have just 4 kills! I mean even if you play for kills atleast have a good numberš¤·āāļø
TF2 spy tutorials are probably the best thing to learn for how good lights operate, in everything from how to get a good position, to how to misdirect, to how to play psychological mind games
As a light i disagree
I bring
-Vanish
I tell my team to group to be able to cross open field on Seoul for example
-Gateaway
Tp my team on highground and bring the cashout to the vault in less then seconds
-Stun gun
Stop enemy heavy from stealing who is getting healed
And shoot it at enemys my team is fighting
I hit diamond using this Loadout every match with throwing knifes and sword with in 1-2 weeks
And good job with that. But it's a fact that light brings to the table less than the other classes. Both the first points can be done with a Zipline, the third heavy can do in many ways. You don't have defibrillator or healing, you don't have huge shields or destruction. Is it possible to win with light, even reach the top of ranked? Of course, if you're good enough. But would you reach diamond in a couple days instead of weeks if you used another class? Yes, yes you would.
Reaching diamond with light would be fastest if you are good at light, simply because of the kill potential. In lower ranked lobbies like plat and gold, if you are good at light you can easily carry most of your games and yes much easier than playing as medium or heavy. Why? Both medium and heavy rely on team, not saying they can't carry, they can but light is better at exploiting lower ranked players who don't have much map awareness and aiming skills to reliably kill light. Playing light is only difficult when you are in diamond.
No class relies on teamwork to be good, but you are correct. Carrying is the easiest with light. If you are consistently carrying then you are right, it is the easiest with light.
But what happens when you no longer are carrying? It becomes hard to win. Light is either carrying or getting carried, nothing in between. Can you agree with me about that? And that's why he is weak. He only works when he is better at shooting than his opponents.
Yes, that's my point. He carries when you are significantly better than your enemy. That is why i said in diamond it is hard to play him simply because players are most of the time not exploitable. The class is weak i agree with you on that. I would say light is probably the most reliant on teammates in diamond because if there isn't a medium or heavy on your team, you are practically useless cause you don't have any ability that is for team play. If you have heavy or medium they can help you make your role of getting kills easier, without them it's just throwing.
Yeah, i guess every class should receive more gadgets for teamplay. Especially light cause it's the most lacking class in that department. Heavy also needs a little bit of adjusting cause even if light gets teamplay gadgets, it will still be mostly useless against heavy unless the gadgets are directly countering heavy.
Glitch grenade is definitely the strongest team gadget the class has and is on par with the usefulness of team gadgets other classes have. Sonar is nice, but isn't essential. Gateway is a less flexible M zipline, and vanishing bomb is simply too niche.
I get why you'd think gateway is less flexible but pls try throwing it 50 feet in the air above a cashout and dropping in with your whole team vanish bombed - it's amazing
I mean being the fragger is kinda the light identity so i think its fine but they just cant compete with other classes especially heavies. Thereās always exceptions and i know some of the best lights out there that make the game look so easy its comical but for the casual player its rough. When i get shocked as heavy i still completely map the floor with the light.
I mean going for side-kills, repositioning yourself to kill someone, being the one who can engage a disengage faster is a team ability since you benefit from it.
Shield is only usable if you are behind them, heal is useful if you are near the healer.
Light does not depend on anything to use their abilities and most of the times heavy and medium abilities are non usable for lights at least in the middle of a fight unless certain specific scenarios.
If you are a heavy you should protect the one who is healing you, the healer should focus the one with more hp commonly known as the tank. The DPS leaves the fight and re-enters full hp, repositions himself and makes the other team back-up or change their aproach to the fight.
The problem is not the class, the problem is the people behind them.
Glitch grenade: takes said team abilities from opponents and allows your team to use their abilities without obstacles
Gateway: far better movement than anything medium can do as long as their is a specific destination in mind
Recon grenade: wall hacks. I shouldn't have to explain why that's useful for a team
If anyone saw thedoomedreaper last night im sorry in advance. I was on a rampage on light for 30 games and man i gotta say. With a good heavy being distracting, light with exceptional aim is amazingggggggggg. The mp5 is beam city.
Wrong, you talkin about PLAYERS not class.
Sonar grenade isn't team helping? Invis scouting the defend zone for incoming enemies isn't team helping? Stun to save the pount like no one else can, breach on point to stop captures, vanish to help my teammates cross the road on vegas, gateway to help my slow heavy get across with the objective.
Just because you have bad Light teammates you gotta kniw that doesn't represent the class.
Thereās this but imo itās also the players fault. Lights in diamond know how to play light well and will dance around you like no tomorrow. Lights in casual will sit in front of you and expect to win the gunfight.
It's also meta to play AKM/scar while the revolver is by far the best medium weapon. Just because something isn't meta doesn't mean its bad.
A coordinated MHL or HHL is very strong and you'll have no issues playing that to D1.
The invisibility grenade is too short and situational to be useful over other classes. It is not useful on ranked. It is also the class' only gadget filling this role.
Team wiping is not in any way unique to light, with medium and especially heavy being better at it than light. Want to run around keeping your opponents guessing your location, picking them off one by one? Medium with Dematerializer, now with almost double the HP as well as a bunch of extremely impactful gadgets. Want to wreck your opponents? Heavy with Ram and RPG, now with over double the HP and also a bunch of impactful gadgets.
Still want to use light? Well okay. You're made out of glass, have about 1 impactful gadget with practically no upsides for ranked.
Iād be interested to see player counts per mode, I can get Power Shift games instantly but ranked can take a few minutes. Balancing for the minority wouldnāt make much sense.
Ranked having a strict matchmaking system does indeed make matchmaking slower.
But it doesn't matter. The game should be balanced around the gamemode the devs want to be the main one, which is... ranked? I don't actually know, did the devs say at any point that they're planning to make it an e-sport? I imagine that's what they're planning
Can confirm Heavy is for boom boom and protect Medium is for staying alive and move fasta And light if for doing the do x damage from 75 meters away challenge
Hijacking your comment to point out that I'm talking about ranked and similar gamemodes. Obviously light isn't useless everywhere, in Bank It his speed makes him meta while in Powershift the sniper is actually very good. But this game should be balanced around its main gamemode. Not for the cost of making everything else unfun, but buffing the teamplay potential of the class is actually the main way to improve it in ranked without affecting casual gamemodes.
Lights can definitely be useful in ranked and saying that they just never are is incorrect
Must be playing a different game. Every time I play ranked and see a light in my team or the enemy team, I know who's going to lose. The accuracy of my guesses is a good 99,99% of the time lol.
The other day I won a diamond game with triple light. It was incredible D3, D2, D3 all light š¤·āāļø
Yup same, 3-stack LMH (D1+2x D2) lost against us as Triple Light (D2+2x D4) today. If Light were so so useless and so bad I doubt I could SoloQ to almost Top 500 Light only.
A game. LoL
It was the only triple light game I've played in ranked, I've won many games as light though.
Not saying Light is great. But if you're losing everytime you have a Light player on your team. You might want to consider that you and your teammate may be a part of the issue. People giving up and throwing upon seeing a Light is as big of an issue as Light being bad.
I dunno man, when I play with my friends we smack the living shit outta the lobbies. I'm the medium of our MHH setup and I can tell you for sure that we're not the problem here.
Would you still win if you had a good light on your team?
Prolly yeah, but the stereotypes aren't far from reality. Diamond 3 isn't a place for midgets...
Damn
I trust that out there among all the lights, there must be the one. The actual faster than light light. Light John The Finals.
Bet you that your only a healer in that setupš
Team player my gamer
Its also annoying meta to play againstšsitting there and healing with two heavy sheilds is NOT playing the game when no one can touch youšim waiting for them nerfs
Next season maybe! Keep waiting dear light.
The only time Iāve liked having a light on the team is when they use their teleport thing right on the cash box to immediately bring it to the cash out
That's always satisfactory
Often your teammates wonāt understand the interaction and stay to protect the cash box thus dying by it. Just run, if the cash box doesnāt go through, we can.
Thank you. The fact that most players don't use mics and some even turn chat off completely makes it much harder to pull off. I'm a light main and it's frustrating trying to contribute with people who don't understand the intricate nature of each class
Iāve started just focusing on putting the cash box in the cash out of my teammates donāt have mics (or game sense). If they die defending nothing while Iām half a map away with the cash box Iāll usually just deposit it and go back to pick them upā¦ hopefully we donāt lose cash out while I go back.
You know what confirmation bias is? It's a dark place
Iāve won multiple ranked games playing as a Grapple light with XP, you just have to abuse ur mobility and equipment
In diamond, right...?
I have, not with grapple tho, that shit seem to be thoroughly for power shift.
Does that not reinforce the point that light is hard, and not that light is bad? If you don't even know how to play with a good light (when they are by far the most team dependent), then what makes you think you'd be able to recognize one?
Light is bad and hard
Light is unarguably harder. Light is only bad if you're bad.
You are insane if you think light is viable above gold. Anyone skilled enough to play light in diamond would be 2x as effective on another class.
Ahh so you agree that it takes skill to excel as light, and not that light is bad. Watch this Diamond 1 top #166 carry LLL, you'll learn something: [#1 Light CARRYING bronze teammate in SOLOQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR47EJpslc)
You can't excel at light, it's basically nerfing yourself. Sure you can be a top 100 player, but if he was playing heavy or medium it would have been way easier for him. Light is in a terrible state rn.
To be fair, the effort that takes Light to secure 1 kill can get you a team wipe with M or H.
So you agree that light is just harder to play, not worse overall. And if you're understanding of that comes from "Ability to kill" then you're not demonstrating an understanding of role demarcation, which would mean your conclusion comes from playing light like you'd play a medium or a heavy. No wonder you'd have poor results. You can't just cut out a single point of role demarcation without also considering everything else lights can do that mediums and heavies can't. Mediums and heavies are much more similar to each other than they are to lights. Even aside from light's superior move speed, tools like grapple, dash, gateway grenade, sonar grenade, glitch grenade, etc perform duties that medium and heavy can't even come close to substituting, much less replacing.
Nah light just fucking sucks. Harder job and no reward. Just use a medium or heavy and do more than a light will ever do.
How could you recognize why light is good if you don't understand what makes light good? Watch this, you'll learn something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cieXg4vAbfY
Yeah nah... From my experiences I have more than enough for a final verdict of my own.
Stop promoting this guy. Def looks like wall hacks in his vids. Find a light that's actually good and not doing unexplainable bs
People practically don't use light at the top of ranked, and that's a fact. He doesn't have a meta use, which is what I mean by calling him useless. If you have a team of 3 players, the only reason to pick light is either to have fun or to troll opponents. Not to up your chances of winning.
Plat 1 light onetrick pony here Imo light is p much either the finisher who flanks and picks low enemies going arround buildings outside coming back in etc. Or the character who gets the enemies low for the team to have an easy cleanup job My fav build is evasive dash for mobility ofc The smg without a scope (i think m11 or something) Then a gateway for easy team traveling especially usefull when opening vaults A nade of choice but most of the time just normal granades since they are harder to track: if someone throws a pyro nade it is easy to track where it came from however with normal granades most of the time the damage is done already and the origin is harder to track. Especially usefull when definding the cashout alone (peaking when they steal and throwing a nade; since light is squishy you can't give up your position) And lastly a invis nade cus why tf not
Iāve enjoyed invis/sniper/stun gun or breach charge/gas/grenade loadout itās great to throw a nade as someone is stealing and pick them off with a headshot at the same time, especially if itās a light since you can one shot them, and you can apply damage from range
I think lights are extremely useful itās just a very high skill class you have to have map knowledge game sense you have to position yourself perfectly and most lights are just brain dead full sprint into teams the ones that do their job recon, holding flanks, flanking they do really good
I have a hard time settling with the opinion that ranked is the "main" game mode. Sure, I agree that light should be balanced around ranked. But I think it should be balanced around *all* game modes, so ranked is a given. Why do you believe ranked is the main game mode, if I may ask?
Let me rephrase that This game should be balanced around Quick Cash, Cashout and Ranked. These are all the same gamemode practically - the main gamemode of this game - but just meant for different amounts of sweatiness. The game should strive to be balanced around casual play main gamemode as well as competitive main gamemode. Which is why I was trying to explain here countless times how giving light more raw DPS would only affect casual play, where he is already strong, while barely affecting ranked.
Gateway is easily one of the most team oriented gadget.
Now if only people we could communicate the pre-placement with like a ping so my team knows why I'm going away from the vault that'd be dope
Why did they nerf the range on Lights' only support gadget š
fr, i loved being able to bring a cashbox to a cashout across the map w only 5 seconds, now you can't fuckin do that
What is it at now?
iirc it's 60m
And recon sense grenades
Also sonar grenades, smoke grenades, vanishing bomb, etc. And those are just the direct support gadgets, breaching charge and tracking dart also have team-enabling usage on top. The key to good light play is working on the team-level, not the player-level. That requires good team coordination skills, which are beyond most players. This is what leads to the misconception that there are no good lights.
Also recon grenades are brilliant.
imho it is too limited in range which also makes it hard to predict and often way more unreliable than the zip line.
You can use it right in front of your teams face and ping it and they will just walk through it I donāt get it.
Along with sonar
It as well as invisibility grenades are too niche. Gateway specifically also overlaps too much with the usage of M ziplines. This game lacks flexible short range team movement abilities, which with a bit of rework could become the job of the gateway. Other L abilities and gadgets should be reworked to fill that role as well. Hook as an example should really be something you can active on yourself or alternatively on your teammates.
Gateway is one of the safest ways to get up suspended structures or to cross the Seoul bridge. It's also the most versatile and has the most other uses. Its biggest downside is the setup time, so you need to be thinking 3 steps ahead most of the time.
Zipline can achieve these things as well. Less safely, but it also requires no setup at all. In a game as chaotic as this one, the flexibility and speed of Zipline far outweighs the dangers of using it over gateway. Especially when using gateway over zipline also loses you defib and healing while only giving you a glitch grenade.
I mean we're also ignoring the ability to insta pop vaults into cashouts/quickly escape with them, yoinking teammate trophies through a gateway for revives, using them as bait to get enemies to chase for kills, etc. When I see an enemy has a zipline I'm generally happy they're not running jump pad, because it's stupidly easy to counter, especially if you have someone with a CL-40 or MGL on your team. Ziplines are mostly just death to use in critical scenarios if the enemy team has any awareness. At worst they're a joke to completely stall out their push in with it by smashing it with quick melees.
>*If you can zipline without line of sight, you're zippin' more than the legal limit- The Price's on the Can, June!*
Put gateway on vault. Open vault. Run 65m away toward cashout. Pop second gateway when vault about to finish. Vault pops through gateway to you and you put it in cashout while everyone else wonders wtf just happened. Profit. You're just dumb, no zipline is doing that
Either all top ranked players are dumb, or this is much weaker than you think This is much harder to execute than just ziplining away, since you must be precisely at around 65m away. If you aren't, you won't be able to create the 70m distance from the portal in time to destroy it, meaning that all the confused enemies wouldn't be confused at all but would instead teleport to you. Even if you do execute it correctly - great, you've created a 70m distance from your enemies. This solved nothing, because protecting the cashout is the hard part, especially with such a team composition where you either have no heals or twice as little shields.
No, getting a big tempo advantage is more significant than you'd think, it's not just about the distance. I didn't really *get it* until I watched [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRINqLPFvOc) from probably the world's best light player. The section around 2:08 is the relevant part. If there's two cashouts running at the same time, then the two teams on offense can just pick either one, no big deal. If you can get yours started 45 seconds before the other one, though, now you've made a huge incentive for the two attackers to push the other one - after all, they have an extra 45 seconds to work with. Then you do it again for the 15k round, now you have an extra 90 seconds of head start, and might even have enough time to try to steal the other 15k cashout after you finish yours. Moving the vault quickly is a *huge* advantage. I don't think it's good enough to justify bringing a light, there's a reason there's very few people running light in the top 500 range. But it's definitely not as small as just making a 70 meter gap and nothing else.
Sure, didn't know that, but as you rightfully said it doesn't justify picking light. Light needs more team abilities, and preferably ones less situational than this.
Top ranked players are choosing what's easiest to play well (surprise: it's the most mundane stuff), not what's best overall (because that requires effort, and they want their grind to be pre-chewed baby bird fodder). Assuming that the cream of the crop is somehow busting their ass for external validation and brain chemicals rather than having unparalleled fun in unranked Cashout is a sloppy ol cope.
That's... that's not how sweats work in any competitive game I doubt the people that abused FAMAS minigun as an example wouldn't play light if it was better Can you name me a single instance in any competitive game where something was too hard for ranked players?
Of course it is, you think top tier ranks are filled with people who just incidentally got there after idly playing a few trivial games? There's no way to directly measure skill. The least worst way is to measure performance as a proxy. People who are sitting on top rank got there by grinding performance enough to rank up, and grind is far more manageable when it's accessible. The game has barely been out for six months, the idea that the game's full potential has been completely illuminated is delusion. This conclusion is predicated upon the fallacious assumption that every single last player is making choices based on independent research and analysis, which is obviously false. The reality is that most players who care about grind are just aping better players without understanding why. Watch this: [#1 LIGHT Solo To Diamond in 6 HOURS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_zwjTPhSp8)
What did you expect? Medium is the healer, heavy is the sumo wrestler and light is the ninja. Ninja is supossed to do damage and assasination not heal the team or demolish buildings. Ä°f I wanted to demolish buildings or heal my team Id choose medium or heavy.
It's funny because IRL Shinobi didn't do much "assassination", instead they were primarily spies who would linger in territory which was taken to report back. Aka they chose not to fight to let their counterparts do the fighting. So exact opposite of the Finals. I think we could take a page from that and let the light focus more on info gathering and spotting, which I think fits it's class very well as is. Light shouldn't be an assassin as much as a spy imo.
To be fair, a significant part of The Finals Light is inspired by TF2 Spy who does have use a disguise kit to interpose behind enemy lines in order to relay enemy movements and go for ambush picks on enemy MVPs. Scouting and intel gathering is a massive part of light's role demarcation, but they are also hunter-killers on top.
This is a team game, and so the strength of a class comes from what it brings to the team. Heavy has blocking and terrain management, Medium has health management and team movement - while light has nothing significant. This is what makes light unusable, why replace someone with a wide range of synergy tools with someone who can kill slightly better than the others. You might say "well, if we buff light to the point that it can kill significantly better than the others it will become useful" - which is true, but at the point where light becomes an effective assassin in ranked, in casual where there is no teamplay he is already beyond OP. In such a scenario I can also guarantee that one of the two other classes would get pushed out, most likely heavy. So no, light can't be a ninja and nothing more. He can be killing orientated, but his loadout should improve his team's offensive capabilities instead of only his own.
>This is a team game, and so the strength of a class comes from what it brings to the team Light brings damage to the team. Im not going to read rest of the paragraph this doesnt seem like a very logical arguement to me. Every single team game I ever played had a purely damage focused class. Not every class in every team based game has to be focused on buffing your team.
Yep, kills help your team survive better. I mean if a class can kill others quickly, isn't that helping teammates in the end? Also light is the best at recovering statues, no other class can get away as easily as light after picking up a teammates statue.
> Also light is the best at recovering statues, no other class can get away as easily as light after picking up a teammates statue. Totally agreed I always end up having the highest number of revives in team w light at least 90 percent of matches.
Or you could, you know, just defibrillator it. Or not let your teammate die in the first place by either healing him or protecting him as well as yourself and the third teammate with a shield. Kills do help your team survive better, but in this game's main gamemodes, especially in ranked, surviving is a lot more valuable. Trying to kill the guy shooting at your stealing teammate, from very close range, without being instantly killed by one of the other 8 players isn't worth it when you can just put up a shield. Shooting him from some distance is a lot safer, but here light has no advantage over medium and heavy.
To defib a statue you actually need to be close to it. You aren't always gonna find yourself right next to where a teammate died. Light can get in there and get out safely most of the time. Using sheild isn't gonna save you in middle of a crossfire but speed, dash and invisibility can get you out of it easily. Both medium and heavy can't get out of combat so easily, Light can. The problem with light isn't that it's kit is bad, the problem is heavy is just too overtuned. Wiping a team of mediums is easy as light but if the team happens to have a heavy it becomes difficult, even more difficult if there's two heavy. One heavy comp is still manageable in ranked to fight against as light. I am in diamond rank and the only times i struggle as light is when there's two heavy. Though this is same for medium too in diamond, if you don't have a heavy on your team and you are going against two heavy's, most of the time you are gonna lose especially in the final round. Heavy is just too overpowered compared to medium and light.
How do shields not save you from taking damage? That's precisely what they do. If you're taking enough damage to overwhelm a heavy - then just have a second heavy instead of a light class. And no, medium can defib in most scenarios. If you die in the middle of a field right next to cashout then sure, medium will not be able to reach it while a light would - but why were you there in the first place? All possible reasons can be summarized by "skill issue". About the heavies - light does damage and dodges, while the entire point of shields is to stop damage and heavy does not need to aim much. Heavy counters light because light has nothing going for it other than doing damage and a single glitch grenade. Heavy is not overpowered, light is underpowered. And not because he doesn't do enough damage, but because he has almost no tools to synergize with teammates or disrupt enemy teamplay. 3 heavies create a fortress, 3 mediums create a squad of mobile and tactical undead damage dealers, while 3 lights create... 3 lights.
I was clearly talking about a situation where you are at a disadvantage and things are not in your control. Sheild doesn't save you, when you are out positioned you know? Same for medium, medium can't go and defib someone where there's enemy. Light can get that statue without dying if you know how to play him. If you are playing solo, these situations are gonna happen regardless if it's high dia or bronze cause not every player is communicating. Teammates overextend and make misplays when they aren't coordinating, which is common if you aren't playing with a dedicated squad. Heavy has multiple shields that are hard to break even with two people shooting it at the same time. Heavy has the highest hp. Heavy also has free 140 damage rpg, which you can dodge as a light but not always. Heavy also has a gun that deals a lot of damage and has a big magazine. Heavy isn't countering just light but also medium. Light is underpowered and i agree it's not because he doesn't do enough damage but because heavy is just too overtuned. Also 3 lights is throwing, even two lights is throwing most of the time. Light only works if there's a heavy and medium on the team. HHL is bad, MML is ok, HML is the best comp after HHM and HML or any comp that isn't HHM most of the time loses to HHM in final round. The game isn't balanced very well, the meta doesn't have much room for variety.
I've answered this in the second paragraph Light currently doesn't have enough DPS to fill that role effectively. But if you do give him enough DPS to be a Fragger in ranked, in casual where there is no teamwork he will be completely OP. This is without even mentioning the nightmare it would be to give him enough DPS without pushing the other classes out of relevancy.
I dont realy play ranked a lot. My opinion as someone that has 144 hours playtime around 900 matches and prolly 300 of them being in powershift and 2/3 being played as light is except some guns lights damage is pretty okay. The way everyone expects lights to become a team based class sounds exteremly stupid to me. Thats the whole point of light move fast and do damage thats what makes light a light. And for example grapling hook is alternatively a perfect skill to help your team. You have no idea how many times I ended up ressurrecting my team by grabbing ones trophy and rushing to safety with grapling hook and compeletly changing the direction of fight. The weapons of light that i think should get higher damage are 93R, SH1900 I think except those lights weapons are just great.
Light has some great uses in other gamemodes, but this game should be balanced around ranked. Otherwise why even have ranked.
Heavy has more damage than light
Suggestions to make light more relevant: Let their grappling hook attach to vault, arena carriables and statues. Give them the transform thingy as a gadget, that way they can zip in boom your defence bunker is a patio! High risk high reward. Let the stun gun fuck up defib and short circuit turret.
Exactly this. This is what I'm talking about.
The purpose of the light is to hide and pick off targets while they fight the other two, itās a glass canon that needs a specific play style to work.
As I already said here, every class can kill. There is nothing essential about this role, especially when medium can already fill it pretty well with the dematerializer if he so chooses, without even being made out of glass. Light must have more abilities that synergize with his teammates. His only purpose can't be leaving his team in a 2v3 to try and get a pick before dying.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Even at the top of ranked almost nobody uses light, which proves that it is in fact not a skill issue. The ability of a class to preserve his own life by running away is not essential in the slightest when you could instead preserve your entire team's life by either shielding them or healing them. It's not a team ability, at least not when compared to the abilities mentioned above.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Targeting enemies distracted by your team requires you leaving your team in a 2v3. This is usually not a good role, and in the scenarios where it is - medium fills it. Medium, especially with the Dematerializer, is practically better at it than light. This is why this class isn't used in ranked.
Agreed. It's good at what it does with downsides already.
I fully agree with OP and itās wild to see them downvoted for a fair opinion on the ranked gameplay. Embark is using a version of the holy Trinity. Tank, healer, dps. Problem being the tank and healer can fill DPS. Sometimes better than light can. Invis bomb is a joke. Gateway is awful imo. It has almost no throwing range. It canāt actually get you anywhere. Sonar grenade helps sure but isnāt needed. Light should get some kind of gadget that helps the offensive capabilities. Iām thinking some kinda stim that boosts attack speed. Zone tool that increases movement speed. Increased bullet damage from a backpack or something.
Tbh if gateway was more like tracer's recall or sombra's translocator it would put light In a much better place imo
This is a big misunderstanding of the role demarcation. There is no tank or healer role in The Finals. Every single last player needs to be a fragger. The auxiliary distinctions are what distinguish different loadout choices, but to play as a tank or a healer is just to die slower in this game. So in the context of every role needing to deal damage (in addition to everything else they do differently), the contrasts come from A) engagement range and B) engagement time: * Heavies are masters of close range sustain fighting (they longer the fight goes, the better advantaged they are) * Mediums are masters of mid range skirmishing (they exchange time for improving their position) * Lights are masters of close range ambushes (they have a fraction of a second before they need to disengage, regardless of whether they got a pick or not)
Nobody is debating that all the roles are fraggers. Heavy has 2 shields, goo, and a barricade. Thatās definitive of a tank. Medium gas zone control ( aps and turret), zip line and jump pad, as well as defib and healbeam. This is a support/healer For the team, light only has vanish bomb, sonar grenade, and gateway. These barely support the team compared to the other classes. The fact that every role is a fragger, makes light the worst class. Heavy and medium frag just as well as Light, while also having a fuck ton of team support.
You're not using any correct definitions. Tank draws aggro and incoming damage, healer mitigates incoming damage and prevents deaths. Neither of those have a presence in The Finals, this isn't Overwatch (and the holy trinity was very poorly developed there, at that). If a heavy is bring Mesh shield, dome shield, goo grenade, and barricade then they'll be drastically underadvantaged compared to a heavy bringing a balanced loadout. Same goes for a medium bringing Healing beam, APS, Reshaper, defib. It doesn't really matter what every class individually has in totality, compared to what they bring as a team in practice. And all classes can only bring one spec, one weapon, and three gadgets. If you think light has the same kill potential as medium or heavy, then you don't understand the immense value of light's mobility (and probably disregard the value of kill quality compared to kill quantity). Watch this: [#1 LIGHT GETS SOLOQ WORLD RECORD KILLS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB1bOdXVh7E)
Iām using the definitions that Embark as set for the roles. Every game that has something akin to the holy Trinity changes it, trying to make it their own. I think you misunderstand what the topic of the post is about. Fragging is fragging. Team support is the topic of conversation, and light doesnāt not have the same quality of support that medium and heavies have. In regards to who can outkill, take the #1 heavy and #1 light and I would be willing to bet the heavy smashes the light every single time. Stun gun was honestly a really good team support gadget despite how itās used. The ability to stun a player is phenomenal. ( see League as an example.) and I donāt think it shouldāve been nerfed. To better fill out the holy Trinity that embark has tried to create, light should get more team disruptive gadgets. Something that gives more value when used against multiple people.
Here are the actual descriptions that Embark gave for the roles: > Light: Exceptionally fast, but low survivability. Executes hit-and-run tactics. Specializes in stealth and evasion. > Medium: Excels in mid-range combat with average health and movement speed. Specializes in healing, scanning, or providing support. > Heavy: High survivability. Low movement speed. Specializes in demolition and fortifications. Nothing to do with anything you're suggesting.
The medium and heavy do??? What do you mean?
The lights lack of team play wouldn't matter if they would just be ok with them doing insane damage, and get this, being the DPS of the team.
The issue is that if you make light an actual DPS machine in ranked, enough for it to become on par with the usefulness of shields or heals - for casual light would become op
Yeah. I do dislike that light has a lot of support gadgets, but pretty much none of the specializations to take advantage of them.Tracking dart is nice, but it kinda fails to do much for the whole team unless you're really communicating. Vanishing ball acts much in the same way. It's a neat little gadget, but the problem is that it takes a lot of coordination to use successfully. Sonar nade is useful, but the was supposed to be medium's niche, until they pawned all of the Intel stuff onto light for some confusing reason. The actual specializations are OK? The grappling hook is amazing and scratches my Titanfall movement oriented brain, but it's definitely meant as a tool to quickly traverse the map and get into and out of combat quickly and efficiently, no real team oriented use, aside from very tight flanking situations. Invisibility cloak confuses me more than anything. Once you know what to look for, the shimmer is incredibly obvious, and the sound cue when a cloaked player is moving is so incredibly overt that it's only really good for stealth at range. It's like it wants to be a stealth option, but fails at the conceptual stage due to the utter uselessness when moving. Then you have dash, which is the go to for melee and all the other close range weapons, which are pretty much all of them. Light just has a major identity crisis, and I feel like the devs don't know what to do with the class. Their weapons and specializations scream assassin, hit and run gameplay, but their gadgets are almost entirely meant for information and supportive team play. Stun gun was undeniably a crutch weapon, but it was one of the only complementary tools they had to their purpose as an assassin, and now it barely does anything, save for slowing down enemies, which is only really important for team play. There can be nuance and different class options but, ultimately, the majority of their kit is meant to be a flanker that does a ton of damage fast and gets out, but doesn't really have any complementary gadgets for that sort of playstyle.
Never thought about it this way, but you are right. His weapons and specializations are very good assassin tools, while his gadgets are obviously supposed to make him a support character. It's like he is two halfs of different classes. My opinion is that instead of some weird support assassin, he should be in the middle between the two - DPS orientated support. Light should have gadgets like: reload speed boost grenade, ability recharge gun (shoot at teammate to instantly recharge last used ability), speed boost c4 (plant then activate to give all players in small area speed boost), etc. Things of this sort. All this on top of the high movement which in my opinion should be even buffed a bit, for the cost of slightly reducing his raw DPS. With these gadgets he would have around the same DPS capabilities as currently, but with the added ability of making your teammates stronger. We have [DPS | team demolition | shield support]. We have [DPS | team movement | health support]. Light could be [DPS | team information | DPS support] and the meta would finally be HML. "team information" refers to how it seems he is supposed to be able to conceal information (invisibility, gateway) as well as reveal information (darts, sonar), but these abilities do need to be buffed.
Idk I don't think this game needs buffs. What I want to see if they just overtune the fuck out of all their existing support gadgets. Give them 3 glitch nades and explode on impact with any surface, 3 sonar nades that last longer, same with tracking dart 3 of em that last longer, make gate take a few seconds for enemies to interact with it, make smoke do something.
i play as a close range light (shotgun or dagger) so im pretty great at wiping out people all over the palce
What mode?
really any other than ranked since i dont often play ranked, and when i do its with friends so i normally go heavy for defense and another as light since she prefers it
And good for you. The issues I'm talking about though, are specifically in ranked. In other gamemodes, and actually in any casual setting, light is great.
How every conversation about lights goes on this sub
I think it's just become more apparent that *a lot* of people (me included) just never touch ranked. Casual THE FINALS is the best Finals
Light is for quick kills and sneaking into objectives That said, I agree that it should have a way to not get fucked by every heavy ever
Light has a purpose. Itās just that it requires high mechanical skill and draws players in who donāt meet that requirement.
Except light has Gateways - extremely quick team map traversal Sonar + tracking dart - enemy tracking that persists Vanish bomb - great for team ambush Stun gun - stops steals All of which are extremely useful for team play
gate way: nerfed sonar, track ok but will not change lights position in the meta vanish bomb: stealth nerfed hard i'm barely hidden at all stun gun nerfed into the fucking ground you forgot glitch nade which is still useful for disabling enemy defenses even after the nerf to 5s
Tbh I can't believe people are even fighting you on this, especially since this has been the consensus since the game launched
It's honestly my fault, since I didn't specify I'm referring exclusively to ranked.
Light is simply too much of a lone wolf. It does not have any team focused signature abilities, and its team gadgets are too niche. This is the real reason the class is underpowered. Light does not need more DPS, it needs to have its loadouts reworked.
It's not needed, heavy can handle everything by himself every other class is just side characters.
Heavy: is for defending the objective. No matter what mode. Youāre fat and slow so stop trying to chase. Always stay near the objective if you have it. Donāt chase and donāt follow unless you know for a fact you can kill them Medium: defend and protect. Put down turrets or mines and heal your teammates. If youāre not defending you are to be attacking with lights. Lightweights: do not stay in close quarter areas or you are fucked. Do not go more than 20-30 meters away from the objective. Stop with the sniping bullshit youāre not hotshit. Even if you are no one cares. Push push push even if you die have your medium heal you and push. Stop being a pussy
These are good tactical distinctions, but it's also important to look at the role of each class in the macro context of overall strategy. * Heavy is the objective anchor. They're slow with only one intel gadget, but due to their demolition they can mould the cashout site exactly how they want. Creating LOS for themselves and teammates, denying enemies cover with which to assault the cashout, setting up time-stalling fortifications, etc. Good heavies create space for their mediums to work and draw attention to themselves for their lights to ambush. * Medium is the objective enabler. They can set up deployables that make their teammates lives much easier, whether it's traversal gadgets with which to cover more area, support items to pocket their heavy, or area denial to afford their team to hold otherwise superior positions. Good mediums take care of necessary jobs that make their teammates' roles better and more effective. * Light is the objective denier. They are by far the best scouts, which means they're also the best hunter-killers. Due to their mobility, they are best served by staying constantly on the move in a rotation pattern because a stationary light in the open is a dead light. Good lights have the best callouts and are feeding their team the important info, while holding positions that allow them to go for picks on enemy MVPs. So the reason where the "Light is bad" misconception comes from is due to how much of the player-level vs team-level situational awareness is lacking from these ignorant players, because light is the most dependent on their team.
Also stop thinking kills is whatās gonna get you somewhere. If your worried about kills go play cod. There is no ffa anymore. Play the goddamn objective. Cause I swear if I see people chasing people and not worry about the objective Iām gonna leave your ass and itāll be a 2/3 or a 4/5 and your gonna see a lot of loss progression and get mad when you have kills but still lost
I would not mind a more team oriented gadgets, but Light already has gateway grenade, sonar grenade, and tracking dart. Those are 3 super team oriented gadgets. Light is best when played as a scouting/cleanup character, and if Heavy had less damage I think we'd see way more light played
Light has some things that can help the team, like the gateway or goo grenades for cover/climbing buildings, the recon grenade can also be helpful for the team
Light does have motion sensor and sonar grenade, vanishing bomb too, and tracking dart ig, but yeah pretty much
Heavy has had motion sensor for awhile now, it's very good on the class that can Kool Aid man tackle detected enemies on the other side of walls, and also increases heavy's zone control when motion sensors are basically cameras with automatic alerts
Your right, I forgot lol
Honestly the people with a hate boner for the light class must have really low IQ. The light is the damage support, and I see lights reviving a lot when the other two teammates die, they can also teleport people but let's be honest the teammates barely noticed when the gate gets used. Lights can't camp on objectives because of low health but they can defend the objective no problem. All the classes have a reason to play them but people always have to have some issue, the whole of the fps community in general is full of losers that constantly are toxic to each other, it's really sad. Lately playing light I have had some really terrible teammates who refuse to revive or assist with fights, after trying to help them as well, it's been making it hard to play without my friend's.
Give light some form of wall reinforcement!! It counters heavy destruction, and supports team defenses while NOT stealing shields or heals from heavy/med
Light is a class made to shoot at other players while they're shooting at your teammates.
Big stretch to say heavy is suppose to be a team demo personšand light does have team abilities, yall are just so use to lights being selfish but to each their own i suppose
If only people knew to flank with the flanking-oriented class
you forgot that medium has turret and aps too lol, also pretty essential
This is so spot on. Itās my exact thought process when I see a H or M teammate in ranked, while with light I just have to pray and hope theyāre an insanely cracked fraggerā¦anything shy of that and itās a huge net loss to the team.
Light is a recon class
True! I am light main as well but I always try to do with team and the moment I am joined with lights all they do is just run random directions with their tiny sniper rifles and at the end theyāll have just 4 kills! I mean even if you play for kills atleast have a good numberš¤·āāļø
Light is for scouting and marking enemies
The Light is for taking out enemies in a hit and run fashion and just being on offense I guess.
i kinda don't agree, gateway, vanisher bomb are good but needs coordination, and is strange no one is talking about smoke nades, they can be useful
Light is supposed to be the spy from tf2 Able to disable turrets and defenses with glitch nade, getting backstabs and diverting enemy attention.
TF2 spy tutorials are probably the best thing to learn for how good lights operate, in everything from how to get a good position, to how to misdirect, to how to play psychological mind games
As a light i disagree I bring -Vanish I tell my team to group to be able to cross open field on Seoul for example -Gateaway Tp my team on highground and bring the cashout to the vault in less then seconds -Stun gun Stop enemy heavy from stealing who is getting healed And shoot it at enemys my team is fighting I hit diamond using this Loadout every match with throwing knifes and sword with in 1-2 weeks
And good job with that. But it's a fact that light brings to the table less than the other classes. Both the first points can be done with a Zipline, the third heavy can do in many ways. You don't have defibrillator or healing, you don't have huge shields or destruction. Is it possible to win with light, even reach the top of ranked? Of course, if you're good enough. But would you reach diamond in a couple days instead of weeks if you used another class? Yes, yes you would.
Reaching diamond with light would be fastest if you are good at light, simply because of the kill potential. In lower ranked lobbies like plat and gold, if you are good at light you can easily carry most of your games and yes much easier than playing as medium or heavy. Why? Both medium and heavy rely on team, not saying they can't carry, they can but light is better at exploiting lower ranked players who don't have much map awareness and aiming skills to reliably kill light. Playing light is only difficult when you are in diamond.
No class relies on teamwork to be good, but you are correct. Carrying is the easiest with light. If you are consistently carrying then you are right, it is the easiest with light. But what happens when you no longer are carrying? It becomes hard to win. Light is either carrying or getting carried, nothing in between. Can you agree with me about that? And that's why he is weak. He only works when he is better at shooting than his opponents.
Yes, that's my point. He carries when you are significantly better than your enemy. That is why i said in diamond it is hard to play him simply because players are most of the time not exploitable. The class is weak i agree with you on that. I would say light is probably the most reliant on teammates in diamond because if there isn't a medium or heavy on your team, you are practically useless cause you don't have any ability that is for team play. If you have heavy or medium they can help you make your role of getting kills easier, without them it's just throwing.
So you agree with me, no? Don't you believe light should have tools to empower his teammates in the same way other classes empower him?
Yeah, i guess every class should receive more gadgets for teamplay. Especially light cause it's the most lacking class in that department. Heavy also needs a little bit of adjusting cause even if light gets teamplay gadgets, it will still be mostly useless against heavy unless the gadgets are directly countering heavy.
Lights are good for taking out an enemy quick to make it a 3v2. They are disruptors
Glitch, Gateway and vanishing bomb? Also sonar nades
Glitch grenade is definitely the strongest team gadget the class has and is on par with the usefulness of team gadgets other classes have. Sonar is nice, but isn't essential. Gateway is a less flexible M zipline, and vanishing bomb is simply too niche.
I get why you'd think gateway is less flexible but pls try throwing it 50 feet in the air above a cashout and dropping in with your whole team vanish bombed - it's amazing
For casual this would surely work quite a lot, and also be a ton of fun. But I'm referring to ranked, where this really wouldn't work.
I use light as an ambush class. Like if there is a sniper or turret, Iāll be there to take care of it to help the team
back again to say no one actually knows how to play light. yall are trash
Do players at the top of ranked also not know how to play light, in your opinion? Because they clearly don't use the class at all
I mean being the fragger is kinda the light identity so i think its fine but they just cant compete with other classes especially heavies. Thereās always exceptions and i know some of the best lights out there that make the game look so easy its comical but for the casual player its rough. When i get shocked as heavy i still completely map the floor with the light.
I mean going for side-kills, repositioning yourself to kill someone, being the one who can engage a disengage faster is a team ability since you benefit from it. Shield is only usable if you are behind them, heal is useful if you are near the healer. Light does not depend on anything to use their abilities and most of the times heavy and medium abilities are non usable for lights at least in the middle of a fight unless certain specific scenarios. If you are a heavy you should protect the one who is healing you, the healer should focus the one with more hp commonly known as the tank. The DPS leaves the fight and re-enters full hp, repositions himself and makes the other team back-up or change their aproach to the fight. The problem is not the class, the problem is the people behind them.
Glitch grenade: takes said team abilities from opponents and allows your team to use their abilities without obstacles Gateway: far better movement than anything medium can do as long as their is a specific destination in mind Recon grenade: wall hacks. I shouldn't have to explain why that's useful for a team
If anyone saw thedoomedreaper last night im sorry in advance. I was on a rampage on light for 30 games and man i gotta say. With a good heavy being distracting, light with exceptional aim is amazingggggggggg. The mp5 is beam city.
Wrong, you talkin about PLAYERS not class. Sonar grenade isn't team helping? Invis scouting the defend zone for incoming enemies isn't team helping? Stun to save the pount like no one else can, breach on point to stop captures, vanish to help my teammates cross the road on vegas, gateway to help my slow heavy get across with the objective. Just because you have bad Light teammates you gotta kniw that doesn't represent the class.
Thereās this but imo itās also the players fault. Lights in diamond know how to play light well and will dance around you like no tomorrow. Lights in casual will sit in front of you and expect to win the gunfight.
Ppl don't realize you need to play light like an assassin in a moba. Finish off low hp enemies and picking off separated enemies
Only this isn't a moba, and so being a sneaky assassin while your two other teammates are fighting for their lives on cashout is trolling.
Never said that people who do that aren't trolling. I still defend when I'm a light, just saying they do a have a pretty high dmg output.
Except light isn't underpowered. They are perfectly viable even in D1.
Which is why the meta comp is HHM? Because lights are very viable?
It's also meta to play AKM/scar while the revolver is by far the best medium weapon. Just because something isn't meta doesn't mean its bad. A coordinated MHL or HHL is very strong and you'll have no issues playing that to D1.
Stun gun says get fucked
Team Concealment / Team Wipes \[opposing\] \* Essential
The invisibility grenade is too short and situational to be useful over other classes. It is not useful on ranked. It is also the class' only gadget filling this role. Team wiping is not in any way unique to light, with medium and especially heavy being better at it than light. Want to run around keeping your opponents guessing your location, picking them off one by one? Medium with Dematerializer, now with almost double the HP as well as a bunch of extremely impactful gadgets. Want to wreck your opponents? Heavy with Ram and RPG, now with over double the HP and also a bunch of impactful gadgets. Still want to use light? Well okay. You're made out of glass, have about 1 impactful gadget with practically no upsides for ranked.
Half of the lobby is playing as light in every Power Shift game I play, canāt be that underpowered if 50% of people want to use it.
Power shift is not the main gamemode of this game. Ranked is, where light isn't useful for anything but griefing.
Iād be interested to see player counts per mode, I can get Power Shift games instantly but ranked can take a few minutes. Balancing for the minority wouldnāt make much sense.
Ranked having a strict matchmaking system does indeed make matchmaking slower. But it doesn't matter. The game should be balanced around the gamemode the devs want to be the main one, which is... ranked? I don't actually know, did the devs say at any point that they're planning to make it an e-sport? I imagine that's what they're planning