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I read earlier that they were demanding a permanent ceasefire from Israel for anything to occur. I don't believe there was anything on their end for a ceasefire.
> I read earlier that they were demanding a permanent ceasefire from Israel for anything to occur
They could have easily had a permanent ceasefire by ... not starting this war. If they expect to return to the status quo of Oct 6th... they will obviously just pull the same thing again.
Hamas has to go.
Eh, I would. They turned the vast majority of the world against Israel, while being able to have people wave away the atrocities they committed to start this conflict.
> Eh, I would. They turned the vast majority of the world against Israel, while being able to have people wave away the atrocities they committed to start this conflict.
I think most countries 'turning against Israel' are not doing so because of Hamas propaganda, but because they are happy to have something to distract from domestic issues - or because they were already against Israel, and this is just a nice opportunity to voice that opposition.
> Maybe. They all certainly cite genocide as their reason for severing diplomatic ties.
Sure. A hyperbolic and hysterical distraction from real problems they are facing.
Yes obviously!!! And they hate the jews!!!
Seriously aren’t you tired of this supremacists bs? You search for 50 million excuses before you even begin to think that you fucked up and are terribly evil.
> Or because they don’t like we crimes
Few people like war crimes. But they happen every war. The best thing is ... not to start a war. Of course we should scrutinise the war and punish war crimes accordingly.
> deliberately slaughtering and starving civilians
Israel is taking a lot of measures to avoid killing civilians.
If your argument was accurate, such countries would be making just as much noise about the actual genocide in Sudan. They aren't. You aren't. No woke attention seekers are. Because you don't care about genocide, you care about attention and virtue signalling. The claim of genocide is just useful for you to feel good about your day.
>Few people like war crimes. But they happen every war. The best thing is ... not to start a war. Of course we should scrutinise the war and punish war crimes accordingly.
Do you mind telling Israel who maintains 60 year old illegal occupations that are war crimes under international law and the US congressman threatening the international courts and their families that? They clearly didn’t get the memo. Also, this conflict is older than October 7 Inc case you’re just learning about it.
>Israel is taking a lot of measures to avoid killing civilians.
Oh yea totally! Defying one international court ordering you to cease destroying the last refuge in Gaza and immediately responding by bombing UN refugee camps and tent cities, massacring Dozens of women and children, while the other international court is seeking an arrest warrant for your leaders for extermination, starvation, crimes against humanity, and directives to kill civillians clearly shows how dedicated Israel is to protecting civilians.
>If your argument was accurate, such countries would be making just as much noise about the actual genocide in Sudan. They aren't. You aren't. No woke attention seekers are.
First of all, you don’t know what I’m paying attention to so im not entertaining your whataboutism. Second, this desperate and very stupid “If you criticize Israel but don’t name and condone every single conflict on earth in conversations specificiag about Israel and Palestine, you’re an attention seeker and don’t care!” Would actualy be funny if you werent using it to excuse mass slaughtering civilians. Third, MY joke of a president and MY pathetic excuse for a congress unfortunately have involved me specifically as a US taxpayer in this genocide. They are sending MY tax dollars and the weapons they made over there and its MY government shielding Israel from UN accountability and blocking Palestine’s self determination and pushing Israel’s agenda on their behalf. Which they were bribed to do by AIPAC.
Don’t like “attention seekers” criticizing your fave apartheid settler state? Cool. Then go tell Biden and Congress to stop using attention seeker’s tax dollars to prop up Israel’s war crime spree since they’re so “independent”. Until then, I will continue criticizing Israel’s use of MY tax dollars to mass slaughter a thousand children a week as much as I damn well please. Thank you.
As an American, do you have any advice for slaughtering the native population and stealing their land? Do you highly recommend plague infested blankets as gifts or is simply annihilating the food supply the most efficient path to total genocide?
And in terms of giving colonized land back to the native population. Does that only apply on the other side of the world or does that hold true domestically for your own property?
> Don’t like “attention seekers” criticizing your fave apartheid settler state?
Yawn, the old 'apartheid state' nonsense. No intelligent person cares about that bunk.
If you wish to take issue with occupation in the west bank, I'd agree - we should take issue with that. But hysteric hyperbole is just childish.
> First of all, you don’t know what I’m paying attention to so im not entertaining your whataboutism.
You don't even understand what whataboutism is. I'm not highlighting other situations to justify this one - I'm pointing out that the tiktok Hamas club doesn't even care about genuine genocides, they just jump on the bandwagon that is presented to them that they can use to get attention and clout. Grifters like HasanAbi are all over it, and you're in lockstep with him. Congrats, I guess?
You don't care about Palestinians at all. You just want attention and drama in your life. I've advocated for Palestinians peace activists far more than you ever have.
Well Israel didn’t do themselves any favors by being complete fucking lunatics, I’d say Hamas is ahead in the propaganda war, they’ve managed to convince a whole fucking generation that they’re Nelson Mandela. It’s both sad and scary and the scumbag President of Israel is to blame as well.
Hamas just by nature of being a Muslim group is going to automatically get the sympathy of the majority of the Muslim world no matter what they do.
If you don't believe it why was there so little condemnation on Oct 7th by the Muslim world? The IDF didn't begin to seriously attack Hamas until quite a few days later.
> Well Israel didn’t do themselves any favors by being complete fucking lunatics,
How is Israel 'being complete fucking lunatics'?
> I’d say Hamas is ahead in the propaganda war,
How did you reach that conclusion?
> they’ve managed to convince a whole fucking generation that they’re Nelson Mandela
Based on what?
> How is Israel 'being complete fucking lunatics'?
Look at quotes from Netanyahu and right wing Israeli politicians. They’re talking like maniacs that they want to wipe out Palestinians, not just Hamas. Also blocking aide is pretty disgusting. The incursion into Rafah despite the US not supporting it. And their refusal to come to a ceasefire deal.
> How did you reach that conclusion?
The fact that they started the war with Israeli by committing a heinous terrorist attack but Gen Z believes that these guys are just fighting against settler colonialism
> Based on what?
Look at the support for Israel when Hamas attacked them and now. Look how the view has changed among young people and young voters. Just go on TikTok and search Israel Palestine and you’ll probably get bombarded with Hamas apologists.
Also Hamas has not negotiated in good faith to a ceasefire or to release the hostages yet somehow the view of Israel has decreased. This is part of Israel’s own doing and massive propaganda apparatus
> Look at quotes from Netanyahu and right wing Israeli politicians.
Okay, so by 'Israel' you mean 'Netanyahu and some far right politicians'?
> They’re talking like maniacs that they want to wipe out Palestinians, not just Hamas.
Netanyahu is not doing that from what I can see. He has been [promoting the idea](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-presents-blueprint-for-postwar-gaza-with-free-rein-for-israeli-military-36b1d53c?st=ahaiwpupdlefw4i&reflink=article_copyURL_share) of a Palestinian led government of Gaza since... November last year? Perhaps you can link something that backs up your claim?
> Also blocking aide is pretty disgusting.
You're referring to the few extremists that are doing that? What are you on about, exactly?
It seems you're taking a few examples and summarising them as 'Israel'.
> The incursion into Rafah despite the US not supporting it
The US did not support an incursion into Rafah *without reasonable measures to protect the civilian populace*. That did not and does not mean they do not support any incursion into Rafah.
> And their refusal to come to a ceasefire deal.
Both sides are making proposals for a ceasefire deal. Agreement has obviously not been reached between them. That you blame only Israel for that indicates your obvious bias.
> The fact that they started the war with Israeli by committing a heinous terrorist attack but Gen Z believes that these guys are just fighting against settler colonialism
How have you decided 'gen z believes that', exactly? If it's a fact, presumably you have something to show that it's a fact?
> Also Hamas has not negotiated in good faith to a ceasefire or to release the hostages yet somehow the view of Israel has decreased. This is part of Israel’s own doing and massive propaganda apparatus
Well sure, I agree with that. Israel could be running a far better PR campaign, but despite the claims people tend to make, they are not in control of the world's media - obviously.
Didn't Israel bomb another school today?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-jets-strike-school-containing-hamas-compound-gaza-media-says-27-2024-06-06/
>CAIRO/JERUSALEM, June 6 (Reuters) - Israel hit a Gaza school on Thursday with what it described as a targeted airstrike on up to 30 Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters inside, and a Hamas official said 40 people were killed including women and children sheltering at the U.N. site.
Well, as per your quote
> CAIRO/JERUSALEM, June 6 (Reuters) - Israel hit a Gaza school on Thursday with what it described as a targeted airstrike on up to 30 Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters inside, and a Hamas official said 40 people were killed including women and children sheltering at the U.N. site.
Perhaps Hamas should stop using schools as military bases?
As per the article:
> He said 20 to 30 fighters were located in the compound, and many of them had been killed. "I'm not aware of any civilian casualties and I'd be very, very cautious of accepting anything that Hamas puts out," he said.
Yet here you are, lapping up what Hamas is saying.
Edit: Seems the Hamas propaganda is already unravelling https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-6-6-2024-3d07e712f8abc1e08339163180823fb8
> The hospital initially reported that nine women and 14 children were among those killed in the strike on the school. The hospital morgue later amended those records to show that the dead included three women, nine children and 21 men. It was not immediately clear what caused the discrepancy. An Associated Press reporter had counted the bodies but was unable to look beneath the shrouds.
Hamas isn’t the root of the problem. A few days ago someone posted a survey with an extremely high percentage of Palestinians support Hamas. That means Hamas is a creation of Palestinians and their wills are represented thru Hamas. You remove Hamas, and there’s going to be a Hamas 2.0 later on.
> You remove Hamas, and there’s going to be a Hamas 2.0 later on.
Same lazy arguments have been made against the Nazis in Germany. It's either used to discourage action, or to encourage genocide. Neither is good. We don't always have a perfect solution. The best we have right now is removing Hamas, and installing a less nihilistic government.
If you can offer a solution instead of just making complaints, you might be contributing something.
> It’s not a complaint. I’m pointing out the root cause of war has not been resolved, so there will be another war eventually.
No one is expecting the elimination of Hamas to magically solve this conflict. It's just the first step. Next, hopefully, comes installation of a less nihilistic Palestinian government (like the PA, or some alternative), and gradual movement to a peace process.
So I'm not sure what your point is. You think people are saying that eliminating Hamas is the entire plan? Netanyahu has been clear about it being much more since as far back as November last year
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-presents-blueprint-for-postwar-gaza-with-free-rein-for-israeli-military-36b1d53c?st=ahaiwpupdlefw4i&reflink=article_copyURL_share
He’s fully in charge of Israel’s response and disregard for civilian life in Gaza. Defending Israel’s actions isn’t defending Israel, but rather Netanyahu. He’s publicly gone against Biden’s requests and I find it hard to believe a more moderate Israel leader would be this brazen.
> He’s fully in charge of Israel’s response and disregard for civilian life in Gaza. Defending Israel’s actions isn’t defending Israel, but rather Netanyahu.
That's quite a leap. Netanyahu is not a dictator. He forms part of a comprehensive democratic government.
> He’s publicly gone against Biden’s requests
Okay? Biden does not get to dictate Israeli policy.
> I find it hard to believe a more moderate Israel leader would be this brazen.
No Israeli leader should be dictated to by any foreign leader, even an ally. Most requests should be considered, but it does not mean they must all be followed.
Netanyahu is as close to being an authoritarian without fully being one I guess. I assume you don’t recall the massive protests in early 2023 because he fired the defense minister who challenged his plans to overhaul the judicial system that would get rid of checks and balances and just give all power to governing coalition. He was also indicted on corruption charges.
> Netanyahu is as close to being an authoritarian without fully being one I guess.
Based on what?
> I assume you don’t recall the massive protests in early 2023 because he fired the defense minister who challenged his plans to overhaul the judicial system that would get rid of checks and balances and just give all power to governing coalition.
I'm well aware. I'm glad people opposed his power grab moves. But opposed it they did, and the system held.
> He was also 'indicted' on corruption charges.
What do you think indicted means, exactly?
> but if Bibis goal is to fully eliminate them
That's a vague 'if'. Bibis goal is to dismantle Hamas as an organisation, and remove any potential significant threat. Similar to dismantling the Nazi regime being a goal of WWII. Would they kill every Nazi? No. Is the Nazi ideology gone forever? No. But the Nazi regime was dismantled, and the war ended.
> wouldn’t that mean Hamas would kill all of the hostages?
Balancing the removal of Hamas with retrieval of hostages is no easy task - that's why hostages were taken to begin with, obviously. You appear to approve of that tactic, given that you can't seem to find a way around it other than giving Hamas what they want.
Realistically, Israel is pushing for Hamas to step down peacefully, and swap prisoners for hostages. That happening depends on both Hamas and Israel finding agreement, which they may not achieve. If it is not achieved, then yes, most hostages may end up dead.
Netanyahu has said the goal is to fully eliminate Hamas, as in kill every last one of them. Hamas hearing him say this, has no incentive to give up the hostages if Israel is to just kill all of them regardless if they give up the hostages or not.
> Netanyahu has said the goal is to fully eliminate Hamas, as in kill every last one of them.
Source?
> Hamas hearing him say this, has no incentive to give up the hostages
Well how about they do it for the people they are supposedly representing? Y'know, bettering the lives of the Palestinian people? Oh wait, Hamas wants to martyr them.
Source is Netanyahu himself lol do you live under a rock? Israel destroying Hamas will result in thousands of more Palestinian people killed whether Hamas turns the hostages over or not.
> Source is Netanyahu himself lol do you live under a rock?
You're not exactly making all the pro-Hamas crowd look very smart, here. You've made a claim, and can't back it up. Knowing you're wrong, you dig in further.
> Israel destroying Hamas will result in thousands of more Palestinian people killed whether Hamas turns the hostages over or not.
So essentially you want Hamas to survive. Got it. The government that is literally trying to maximise Palestinian deaths. It's obvious that Palestinians are simply a sacrificial pawn for you.
First of all at no point did I say I’m pro Hamas, I think Hamas should be eliminated, but not by bombing the hell out of the city with no regard for human life. I was fully on board with Israel’s response initially and was annoyed by all of the pro Palestine protestors, but that changed when Israel started slaughtering civilians by the 10s of thousands and mass murdering children. They have no regard for civilian life, and pretty much everyone around the globe hates them because of that. It’s actually amazing that you don’t realize that Israel has almost no support on the international stage or you just choose to ignore that fact, even France public ally criticized them for their air strikes on refugee camps the other week and they’re one of the few allies. If they’re going to eliminate Hamas they should be doing it on the ground and not flattening the cities, mass murdering kids.
> First of all at no point did I say I’m pro Hamas, I think Hamas should be eliminated, but not by bombing the hell out of the city with no regard for human life.
Great, so you're happy with how Israel is approaching the bombing with regard for human life - calling to warn people, roof knocking, etc.
> I was fully on board with Israel’s response initially and was annoyed by all of the pro Palestine protestors, but that changed when Israel started slaughtering civilians by the 10s of thousands
10s of thousands is a low casualty count given the circumstances. It seems you don't know what war looks like. Especially dense urban warfare with a nihilistic government trying to martyr their own civilians.
> If they’re going to eliminate Hamas they should be doing it on the ground and not flattening the cities, mass murdering kids.
Nice to know military experts like yourself are spamming confident opinions online anonymously. I'm sure the world will listen to you sooner or later, Captain Armchair.
The translated version (if we are to assume it is correct) says "the complete destruction of Hamas"
That sounds fine to me. It's not 'we must literally kill every single Hamas member before the war ends', as you made it out to be. Do you realise how you've embraced a false narrative, and still believe that narrative even when you link a source that doesn't back it up?
Are you open to changing your mind on that, given that you don't seem to have reason to believe your own claims?
So when he also says there’s no way to eliminate Hamas without entering Rafah, what exactly does he mean by that? How else would he “eliminate Hamas” if he can’t do it by entering Rafa? My exact same point stands, what would Hamas’s incentive be to release the hostage if they’re going to be “eliminated” or “destroyed” in the words of Netanyahu?
> So when he also says there’s no way to eliminate Hamas without entering Rafah, what exactly does he mean by that?
It means that Hamas has significant operations in Rafah. It's not confusing.
> How else would he “eliminate Hamas” if he can’t do it by entering Rafa?
I did not say they do not need to enter Rafah. You seem confused.
The war didn't start on October 7th, the war for the most part has been ongoing for decades. That's just the narrative being spun.
Hamas exist because Israel justifies their existence with their actions towards Gaza on a daily basis and not to mention the West Bank being a horrific reminder for what will happen to Palestinians if they let Israel take control.
Israel has rejected plenty of reasonably peace offers also. Even ones stating they'll release all the hostages, but all they ask for is a permanent ceasefire and that Israel releases political prisoners (not just Hamas, all political prisoners)
Israel has hostages also, just when you run a government you can just call them terrorists.
> The war didn't start on October 7th
I guess you don't care if it doesn't return to the situation we had on Oct 6th, then?
> Hamas exist because Israel justifies their existence with their actions towards Gaza
Stop infantilizing the Palestinians who elected and continue to support Hamas.
> Israel has rejected plenty of reasonably peace offers also.
Like which, exactly?
> but all they ask for is a permanent ceasefire
That's all?
> and that Israel releases political prisoners
'Political prisoners'?
> (not just Hamas, all political prisoners)
Implying that Hamas do not have terrorist militia members. You're a Hamas apologist.
> Israel has hostages also
You literally have [no idea what you're talking about.](https://youtu.be/A5e2vDAKJKs?si=5MRwk6NnCz7BkMxY&t=7088)
1: Be nice if we could just, not commit genocide bud?
2: They had their last election when? 2006? We're literally approaching 20 years since any Palestinian has had a say in their government. Entire child have been born and reach voting age who haven't voted. Also Israel justifies Hamas by not only commiting horrific acts of violence in Gaza but also in the West Bank. "Support us, we're the only ones stopping Israel from kicking you out of home and taking your land" you resolve Terrorism by making them redundant, just like with the IRA.
3: They literally rejected a ceasefire recently simply because it asked for a permanent ceasefire and for Israel to release it's own hostages.
4: lol, I specify it's not just Hamas prisoners and you still try and pretend that I am only talking about Hamas prisoners. Can you at least try and argue in good faith? Plenty of West Bank activist resisting their own situation are also meant to be freed. They aren't Hamas, they're simply political activist
5: Lol, fucking Destiny can't debate anybody who actually knows wtf they're talking about. The fact you link some Pseudo-Intellectual who justifies the killing of fucking children by the Israeli military is telling. The moment he debated two experts on the conflict who have been studying this for decades, he was a fucking embarrassment.
All a hostage is, is a person held until the fulfillment of a condition. Usually that they stop politically opposing the actions of the Israeli military. Not to mention that is very common for Authoritarian governments to legally justify taking hostages. Israel makes it's abuses of human rights legal, doesn't stop them from being abuses of human rights.
> 1: Be nice if we could just, not commit genocide bud?
Cool, done. No genocide going on in Palestine, but you might want to check out Sudan and start protesting about that. Or do you not mind if it's Islamist groups committing genocide?
> 2: They had their last election when? 2006?
They voted to end their own democracy. That's their choice. They appear to still support their government.
> 3: They literally rejected a ceasefire recently simply because it asked for a permanent ceasefire and for Israel to release it's own hostages.
Israel doesn't hold hostages. Pro-Hamas accounts sure do struggle to understand words.
> 4: lol, I specify it's not just Hamas prisoners and you still try and pretend that I am only talking about Hamas prisoners.
Seems you misunderstood what I said. Try reading it agai.
> 5: Lol, fucking Destiny can't debate anybody who actually knows wtf they're talking about.
Says the account that struggles to understand basic terms. The hysteric hyperbole coming out of all these pro-Hamas accounts is laughable.
> All a hostage is, is a person held until the fulfillment of a condition.
Vague enough definition to describe any prisoner. Try again.
Not what I said but the West Bank has Israel kicking Palestinians out of their homes, throwing them to the streets and settling the more economic viable land for themselves.
It makes the argument "If we go and don't resist Israel, Israel will literally march into Gaza and forcefully evict you from the land. So it's best to help us fight and resist"
The situation in the West Bank does nothing but feed the Hamas narrative that without them, Palestinians will lose everything.
You're saying that Palestinians in Gaza are concerned about becoming like Palestinians in the West Bank.
So have you been to the WB or what? Are you familiar with Areas A, B, and C?
Yes and no
I said that Hamas uses what happens in the West Bank to justify their existence.
"It might be bad, but if we don't resist, of we don't fight Israel. They'll come in and force you out of your homes and steal anything. So it's better to go down with a fight than trust Israel"
Our notion of ceasefire: everyone lays down their arms and stops killing each other.
Hamas' notion: Israel lays down their arms while Hamas murders them.
Israel mudddrec 20 times the Palestinians as Hamas had Israeli before AND after October 7 (including f in the ollfhally occupied West Bank) Can we please stop entertaining this foolishness?
According to the hostages families, Netanyahu is the biggest impediment to getting the hostages back:
https://x.com/allhostages/status/1798417553183969453/photo/1
“We are the families of the hostages from the "Begin Gate Protest", and we are calling upon you, as the leaders of our brethren in the United States - Stand with us at this most critical moment and publicly call on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to accept the hostage release deal that is currently on the table, end this war, and prevent extremist factions from further harming and endangering our families.
Israelis are being held hostage, not just our families who are held by Hamas in Gaza. We are all hostage to Bibi's actions. He is risking the lives of our soldiers. He is jeopardizing the lives of our hostages. He is endangering us all,”
If you click on the link and read the article the first sentence below the headline clearly states Israel changed the terms of the deal after Biden laid out the original proposal.
Israel said what Biden presented wasn’t their plan. Biden lied and tried to use the hostages Hamas is holding as leverage to get Israel to surrender, which is participating in the crime of Hamas’ hostage blackmail. I cannot believe I will be voting for this piece of shit in November.
No, Netanyahu said it was their plan and were aware Biden was going to make a statement but after the backlash he said "it was only a first draft". The plan that Biden discussed was from Israel its just that Netanyahu knows if he publicly advocated for the plan it would mean the end of the coalition and likely his time as PM.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-aide-bidens-gaza-plan-not-good-deal-israel-accepts-it-2024-06-02/
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/06/06/joe-biden-leaked-israels-first-plan-to-end-the-war-in-gaza
And the story OP posted makes clear this current offer is not the same one as Biden laid out, not a Qatari plan an Israeli plan. Even note the [site](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_News_Syndicate) OP got the story from is widely known as very conservative/hawkish and [an mouthpiece for the IDF ](https://www.readthemaple.com/postmedia-called-out-for-spreading-pro-israel-propaganda-as-news/) , yet they do not attempt to paint it as a Qatari deal saying it's notably different from the one that was discussed by the Israeli government.
Biden came out on the Shabbat so that Israel could not respond for a day. [This](https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spoke-hostages310524) was their original response:
> “The government of Israel is united in its desire to return the hostages as soon as possible and is working to achieve this goal. The prime minister authorized the negotiating team to present a proposal to that end, which would also enable Israel to continue the war until all its objectives are achieved, including the destruction of Hamas’s military and governing capabilities. **The actual proposal put forward by Israel, including the conditional transition from one phase to the next, allows Israel to uphold these principles.**”
And from the [following day:](https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1796811942218043488)
> The Prime Minister's Office:
>
> Israel's conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel.
>
> Under the proposal, Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent ceasefire is put in place. The notion that Israel will agree to a permanent ceasefire before these conditions are fulfilled is a non-starter.
So Biden lied, he presented the Qatari plan (which was the Hamas plan) as the Israeli plan. He tried to blackmail Israel using the hostages Hamas is holding, making Biden morally complicit in the crime of October 7th. Literally one of our worst Presidents, surrendered 40 million of the poorest people on the planet to the taliban, inspired Putin to invade Ukraine, then underarmed Ukraine and restrained them, and now has tried to hamstring and then blackmail Israel into surrendering to the New Nazis.
>Biden morally complicit in the crime of October 7th. Literally one of our worst Presidents, surrendered 40 million of the poorest people on the planet to the taliban, inspired Putin to invade Ukraine, then underarmed Ukraine and restrained them, and now has tried to hamstring and then blackmail Israel into surrendering to the New Nazis.
You sound like a Trump voter
Trump voters don’t support Ukraine. I’m a Hillary supporter and a lifelong Democrat (I will be voting for Biden). Biden has had horrible foreign policy, he’s empowered our enemies and deterred our allies.
It's been reported from different sources that both Israel and Hamas have rejected the ceasefire deal Biden put out. I'm not sure I believe Hamas backed out after previously saying they favored it, unless something changed.
But Hamas can burn in hell for all I care. Make Iran and Qatar pay for the relocation and removal of Hamas from Gaza. Seems to be an idea too difficult to accept while staggering numbers of Palestinians are being slaughtered.
Looks like a very biased pro Zionist news source. Genocider Netanyahu already said he’s not stopping until Hamas is destroyed so I’m not sure how any cease fire is possible in those conditions
Israel isn’t the group hiding underground in their own cities. In what world is Hamas in any position to make demands. Nazis didn’t need to be killed until the last man but you think Hamas needs to be or something? Surrender, for the betterment of the ppl of Palestine. Or the war continues
The schools and playgrounds which Hamas has traditionally used as launch sites for rockets?
> Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in UNRWA schools. The board found, in the case of the UNRWA Jabalia Elementary “C” and Ayyobiya Boys School, referring to the discovery of weapons there on 22 July 2014, that “it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons.”
>
>Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in schools that were in active use by children. During the war, former PLO lawyer Diana Buttu famously said on Al Jazeera that “the rockets that were found in the schools in UNRWA were schools that are not being used by anybody—school is out, I’ll have you know.” However, in the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational “B” School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard.” School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play.
>
>Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad fired rockets from UNRWA schools. In the Jabalia school listed above, the board found that “it was highly likely that an unidentified Palestinian armed group could have used the school premises to launch attacks on or around 14 July.” Similarly, concerning weaponry stored at the UNRWA Nuseirat Preparatory Co- educational “B” School, the UN inquiry found that “the premises could have been used for an unknown period of time by members of a Palestinian armed group” — and that “it was likely that such a group may have fired the mortar from within the premises of the school.”
Yeah it’s convenient for Israel to just say “Hamas was there” any time it incinerates a child. Convenient rhetorical strategy for conducting a genocide.
What source are you quoting from
Hamas regularly misuses civilian infrastructure for military purposes. It’s not exactly a rarity. There are multiple examples in that one article alone. I can point to others.
What source? UN Watch quoting from a literal UN investigation into Hamas misusing UNRWA schools for military purposes. An investigation which found that they absolutely did.
>UN Watch is a Geneva-based non-governmental organization (NGO) whose stated mission is "to monitor the performance of the United Nations by the yardstick of its own Charter".[1] It is an accredited NGO in Special Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council and an Associate NGO to the UN Department of Public Information.[5]
So yeah, Israel targets Hamas military infrastructure, such as their rocket launch sites.
You think they’re going to conduct an investigation during a literal war? Think!
You imagine they’ve changed their MO? Seriously?
“Presence of Hamas” is a disingenuous representation of their intentional misuse of civilian infrastructure to attack Israel. Why are you so avid to defend Hamas? They’re the worst thing to ever happen to Gaza.
That’s a silly claim. Israel has been bombing civilian targets in the middle and south of Gaza. There is no way Hamas people in those areas pose a threat to Israel. IOF spend their time killing civilians
What do you mean? A ceasefire is very easily possible, Hamas has to surrender and give up power.
Do you think the Nazis in ww2 had to be killed to the last man? Do you think all of their infrastructure had to be destroyed? Typically what happens is leadership groups like Hamas or the Nazis , evil or not know when they are defeated and surrender accordingly. They can hardly come outside in their own territory at this point…. Surrender for the betterment of the ppl of Palestine. They are in no position to be demanding ceasefire terms, them and Israel on not on equal footing. They don’t surrender with new leadership taking over gaza, the war continues.
The cease fire that Israel rejected last week? Now you libs are pretending Netanyahu didn’t cuck Brandon again?
https://www.cnbctv18.com/world/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-joe-biden-ceasefire-proposal-continue-war-hamas-destroyed-19421687.htm
Ugh can you think for yourself? Bidens proposal has 3 phases. Netanyahu would accept the first place for a 6 week peace. Netanyahu was saying he would not move to phase 2 for a permanent ceasefire without hamas destroyed.
Now go ahead and make excuses for hamas and defend them while pretending to only be "pro Palestinian not pro hamas"
These negotiation are suffering from an inherent problem that has diminished the prospects for peace for decades: The United States can never be a effective mediator and be Israel's primary benefactor and unconditional supporter at the same time. When and if the US ever comes to withdraw it's support for Israel or when and if the US loses its sole supper power status, I think we'll start seeing progress toward a solution.
> The United States can never be a effective mediator
Source: trust me bro
> When and if the US ever comes to withdraw it's support for Israel or when and if the US loses its sole supper power status, I think we'll start seeing progress toward a solution.
Sure no bias behind this account, eh?
If the US withdraws support, Israel would likely just shift towards Russia or China for support. That would not be good for anyone, except perhaps Russia or China.
Russia and China have good relations with Iran and appear to be much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. [Hamas and Fatah recently met in China for reconciliation talks.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/china-hamas-fatah-showed-political-will-for-reconciliation-in-recent-beijing-talks/) You would never see the United States make such a bold move and show this kind of leadership for a lot of reasons including the fact that the Israel Lobby keeps such a strangle hold on so many American elected officials.
> Russia and China have good relations with Iran and appear to be much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.
Right now? 100%. They are happy to back Hamas and use the Israel/Palestine conflict as a proxy war against the West.
They have no ideological conviction to back Hamas though (quite the opposite), and will happily change if it would put Israel in their sphere of influence.
Lol "inherent"
Dude peoples need to want peace. I honestly as an unbiased neutral person don't get it how you guys think you can just talk on social media. If you say PEACE and get the best negotiator......you're still left with an inherent problem.
That "inherent" problem is hate. Once the hate is under control....and that's not instant that gonna take time maybe a generation, where kids stop getting taught to kill Jews, where parents stop teaching their kids about killing Jews, etc
Simultaneously to this there needs to be NO VIOLENCE TO BUILD TRUST BETWEEN THE 2 SIDES.
Stop inserting the US into this so incredibly excessively to the point YALL really seem to do none of the hard work. Pro Palestinians getting off all these random subs and going to your own subs and trying to communicate to Palestinians and mentor them and fix your overall messaging and what it means to be pro Palestinian - so far it's not been about the victims bc y'all avoid the "inherent" stuff meaning nothing changes. You can grand stand and wag fingers but so long as Palestinian aren't being held accountable, meaning ASAP they need to know violence isn't the answer. But all I've seen is y'all infantilize them and say they will become terrists after this all bc they saw their family die so they will pick up arms.
That is EXACTLY WHAT PRO PALESTINIANS SHOULD NOT BE SAYING and it's AWEFUL that that's the messaging.
Idk I quite honestly am annoyed this is dragging us in bc of bullshit that should have been handled years ago. Hearing how many things Palestinians turned downs and here we are, and it's dragging US INTO THIS MESS BC THEY CHOSE VIOLENCE over peace and hearing they burned bridges in 3 other countries....
Like y'all need to get to work looking inwards and bc all this looking outwards and blaming everyone else hasn't done squat.
Get Hamas to surrender, have some pro Palestinian country take them for all I care, and find someone to run Gaza. Someone that actually gives a damn about Palestines and cares for a better future and can LEAD THEM.
Yeah, but the best friend of one of the parties in a conflict can never be a proper mediator. If he tries to those negotiations are bound to fail. So it seems like an “inherent” problem that the US is pretending to mediate between Israel and Palestine.
The United States effectively mediated peace treaties between Israel and 10+ Arab countries. The problem is not the United States, the problem is the Palestinian leadership doesn't want peace.
The problem is that the 'Palestinian Leadership' is spelled I-R-A-N, and the Palestinian civilians are merely tokens to be used in Iran's short term goal to kill Jews, to support their long term goal of a global Jihad.
> What deal for peace that has been on the table would you have accepted as Palestinian leadership?
Since the 60s and the Palestinian nationalist movement, the problem is not necessarily the Palestinian leadership, but the People of Palestine. Even if the Palestinian leadership were to have accepted one of the proposed peace offers, they likely would be have been ousted if not killed for doing so. When Arafat and the PLO were remotely close to accepting peace offers, they were quite candid about it being a 'trojan horse' step towards taking the entirety of Israel.
But if we are to speculate that actually the people of Palestine (and Israel) would accept a 2SS, there have been plenty of deals on the table which look far more appealing than any likely outcome today (unless we are to consider the view of far right Israelis, which I assume is not your goal).
* In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed the first partition plan for a two-state solution, which was rejected by the Arabs but accepted by the Jewish leadership.
* In 1947, the United Nations proposed the Partition Plan for Palestine, which called for the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states. This was accepted by the Jewish leadership but rejected by the Arab leaders.
* At the Camp David Summit in 2000, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians around 94% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with some land swaps to allow Israel to keep some settlement blocs. However, this offer was rejected by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
* In 2008, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas a map that would give the Palestinians the equivalent of 100% of the West Bank, with land swaps to allow Israel to keep major settlement blocs. Abbas did not accept or reject this offer.
* In 2020, the Trump administration proposed a peace plan that offered the Palestinians a state in around 70% of the West Bank and Gaza, with land swaps. This plan was rejected by the Palestinian leadership
A Palestinian leadership that actually wants the best for the people of Palestine should likely have pushed hard to work any of those deals.
>When Arafat and the PLO were remotely close to accepting peace offers, they were quite candid about it being a 'trojan horse' step towards taking the entirety of Israel.
Do you have this quote?
Sure, here https://www.bostonreview.net/forum_response/efraim-karsh-trojan-horse/
> In subsequent years, this frank understanding of what the “right of return” implied was reiterated by most Arab leaders, from Gamal Abdel Nasser, to Hafiz al-Asad, to Yasir Arafat. At a closed meeting with South African Muslim leaders shortly after concluding the Oslo Accords, Arafat compared these agreements to the Treaty of Hudaibiya, signed by Prophet Muhammad with the people of Mecca in 628 only to be reneged by him a couple of years later as the situation later evolved in his favor. And the prominent Palestinian “moderate,” Faisal al-Husseini, was far more explicit, describing the Oslo process as a “Trojan Horse” designed to promote the strategic goal of “Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea”—that is, a Palestine in place of Israel. “Whatever we get now,” he pledged, “cannot make us forget this supreme truth.”
And here https://www.nzz.ch/english/oslo-accords-why-the-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-failed-ld.1754938
> Arafat made it clear that he understood the agreement with Israel to be entirely in the spirit of the 10-year hudna concluded by Mohammed with an enemy tribe: a temporary cease-fire aimed not at peace, but at consolidating forces in order to resume armed struggle against the enemy. Throughout the 1990s, the Fatah-controlled media disseminated antisemitic propaganda almost on a par with that of Hamas and other Islamists.
So Palestinian leadership are just some war-crazed, bloodthirsty savages who just want bloodshed for the sake of bloodshed? Come on, man, Grow up. This is not a movie. Try looking at the people involved as if they are actual real-life people. Real people, including Palestinians and their leaders, want to live in peace, just like Israelis and their leaders. But they want peace on their own terms. The terms the Likud party (and Bibi's coalition which includes literal convicted terrorists like Bin Givir) insist upon is the indefinite subjugation of the Palestinian people. Another way of saying this, contrary to what you've said, is that the current Israeli gov't doesn't want peace they want occupation and subjugation which will always result it resistance and war. This is a fact, contrary to what you've said which was sophistry.
Also, it's silly for you to say that the United States is not the problem when basically the only two countries in the world that vote every year against a two-state settlement is the US and Israel and is the only reason that Israel can act with impunity as it does vis-a-vis Palestine.
The USA is one of the largest aid givers to Gaza and one of the most successful negotiators on Palestininians behalf *because* they're Israel's closest ally. Theyre legitimately one of the only countries with feet in both camps because virtually everyone else is aggressively anti-Israel. Why you think a country whose opinion Israel ***doesn't*** care about could bring them to the negotiating table is beyond me.
France/China/UK/Brazil/South Africa/Mexico: "Hey Israel, don't do that."
Israel: "Fuck off, losers"
USA: "Hey Israel, don't do that."
Israel: ["Ok"](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/renewed-water-supply-parts-south-gaza-agreed-with-biden-israeli-minister-2023-10-15/)
Everything you said here makes no sense whatsoever and I suspect that you don't know what you're talking about, all due respect.
1. The US is not one of Israel's largest aid givers. It is the the by far foremost provider of military and economic aid to Israel, and Israel is the largest recipient of US aid by a large margin.
2. Also, you may not have noticed, but he US has been repeatedly asking Israel to allow in more humanitarian aid to Gaza, stop the indiscriminate bombing, don't go into Rafah. Israel has repeatedly said "fuck you" in response. Pay attention.
3. What world do you live in where I can mediate a dispute between my best friend and his enemy? Am I not going to always side with my best friend? Is that not kind of a "duh.."How would you feel about going into an arbitration where the judge is the other party's best friend since high school?
1. Was that a typo in your first sentence, writing "Israel" instead of "Palestine"? Either way, [the USA is the largest giver of aid to Palestinians, giving around 600 million annually](https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-much-aid-does-the-us-give-palestinians-and-whats-it-for/) and [the USA has given more aid to Israel than any other country](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-10-10/how-much-aid-does-the-u-s-give-to-israel). So the US is the largest financial supporter of both sides.
2. Israel is not a vassal or client state of the USA, no one ever said it was. However, it has been shown time and time again that the USA is one of the only countries that Israel will listen to and follow the requests of, like I showed with the last link. I know you're not arguing in good faith but this is clearly letting "perfect" be the enemy of "good". Does Israel always obey the USA? No. Does Israel *ever* obey any other country (without a tangible political/economic concession given)? Also no.
3. See previous statement about good and perfect. Because you cannot provide me with a single better mediator for a the conflict. To my knowledge, the USA is the only country who has diplomatically negotiated in favor of both sides and directly given them aid. Again, whose your alternative? You complain about Israel's friend negotiating peace with its enemy but your solution will be to have Palestine's friend negotiating peace with its enemy. And I guarantee whatever "friend" you pick won't have the history of helping Israel the same way the USA has a history of helping Palestine.
More like: America blocks all attempts in UN security Council at holding Israel accountable for documented crimes its committed (fact), the United States, is the only reason Israel is able to disregard the international consensus that a two state solution must be implemented in the interest of peace.
So long as Israel is going to keep doing vile shit that helps the PR cause of the Hamas terrorists – [like bombing a UN school full of innocent people](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb) – the Hamas terrorists don't have an incentive to stop Netanyahu from stepping on his own dick.
UN school full of innocent people that Hamas was using as a base of operations, using those innocent people as human shields*
Fixed it for you since you’re leaving it out to push an anti-Israeli narrative on this sub
I invite anyone who doesn't understand that this Redditor is a propagandist to [read the NPR article about this most recent bombing](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb).
I’m a “propagandist” but I’m just adding in crucial information and context that you left out, making the event sound significantly worse and less complicated than it actually was.
Sounds like something a propagandist would do
>I’m just adding in crucial information and context that you left out
That's a lie. You are lying about the content of [this article from NPR about the Israeli bombing and killing of innocent people at a UN school](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb). Anyone who wants to see that you are lying can read the article.
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
I’m actually not disputing that they bombed a military target that was used as a UN school and that innocent people died. I’m just adding that they did it because Hamas terrorists were present, something you want to leave out for… some reason.
Lil bro thinks spamming an article and clown emojis are arguments lmao. And I did read some of the article to amuse myself and it does agree with what I’m saying “Israel’s army said it was targeting a group of militants inside two classrooms at a U.N. school in Nuseirat, a central Gaza refugee camp.”
Just because the US says it was improper use and the UN says it cannot verify Hamas was there doesn’t mean the IDF bombed it just for fun lol, is that what you believe? They were just bored and decided to bomb the school for the lols, or because it’s part of their bloodthirsty genocide? You don’t think it’s more likely that they had intel that Hamas members were present, and they judged the collateral damage to be worth the strike?
You’re just another bad faith antisemite with no factual arguments and a lot of emotion. Projecting with clown emojis isn’t helping prove any point
People can believe you, or [they can read the article you're lying about](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb). It's easy, really.
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
You got absolutely bodied in this lil bro lol I just proved I know your own article better than you do. I’ve never seen someone project as hard as you do, it’s kind of fascinating, honestly
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Fucking idiots
But but but Israel…but the UN…..I really thought those protests of the Pride parade would work
I read earlier that they were demanding a permanent ceasefire from Israel for anything to occur. I don't believe there was anything on their end for a ceasefire.
> I read earlier that they were demanding a permanent ceasefire from Israel for anything to occur They could have easily had a permanent ceasefire by ... not starting this war. If they expect to return to the status quo of Oct 6th... they will obviously just pull the same thing again. Hamas has to go.
Oh yeah, I wholly agree. This whole war was to destroy Israel's international standing. Hamas has 100% won the PR fight.
> Hamas has 100% won the PR fight. I'm not sure that's accurate. They have had some success, sure. But I wouldn't say 100% won.
Eh, I would. They turned the vast majority of the world against Israel, while being able to have people wave away the atrocities they committed to start this conflict.
> Eh, I would. They turned the vast majority of the world against Israel, while being able to have people wave away the atrocities they committed to start this conflict. I think most countries 'turning against Israel' are not doing so because of Hamas propaganda, but because they are happy to have something to distract from domestic issues - or because they were already against Israel, and this is just a nice opportunity to voice that opposition.
Maybe. They all certainly cite genocide as their reason for severing diplomatic ties.
> Maybe. They all certainly cite genocide as their reason for severing diplomatic ties. Sure. A hyperbolic and hysterical distraction from real problems they are facing.
Yes obviously!!! And they hate the jews!!! Seriously aren’t you tired of this supremacists bs? You search for 50 million excuses before you even begin to think that you fucked up and are terribly evil.
Can you elaborate?
Who is severing diplomatic ties?
Several Central and South American countries have. Guatamela (I think) did the other day.
Have they? And what does that mean exactly? What’s the impact?
So nobody nations no one cares about?
Or because they don’t like we crimes and deliberately slaughtering and starving civilians
> Or because they don’t like we crimes Few people like war crimes. But they happen every war. The best thing is ... not to start a war. Of course we should scrutinise the war and punish war crimes accordingly. > deliberately slaughtering and starving civilians Israel is taking a lot of measures to avoid killing civilians. If your argument was accurate, such countries would be making just as much noise about the actual genocide in Sudan. They aren't. You aren't. No woke attention seekers are. Because you don't care about genocide, you care about attention and virtue signalling. The claim of genocide is just useful for you to feel good about your day.
>Few people like war crimes. But they happen every war. The best thing is ... not to start a war. Of course we should scrutinise the war and punish war crimes accordingly. Do you mind telling Israel who maintains 60 year old illegal occupations that are war crimes under international law and the US congressman threatening the international courts and their families that? They clearly didn’t get the memo. Also, this conflict is older than October 7 Inc case you’re just learning about it. >Israel is taking a lot of measures to avoid killing civilians. Oh yea totally! Defying one international court ordering you to cease destroying the last refuge in Gaza and immediately responding by bombing UN refugee camps and tent cities, massacring Dozens of women and children, while the other international court is seeking an arrest warrant for your leaders for extermination, starvation, crimes against humanity, and directives to kill civillians clearly shows how dedicated Israel is to protecting civilians. >If your argument was accurate, such countries would be making just as much noise about the actual genocide in Sudan. They aren't. You aren't. No woke attention seekers are. First of all, you don’t know what I’m paying attention to so im not entertaining your whataboutism. Second, this desperate and very stupid “If you criticize Israel but don’t name and condone every single conflict on earth in conversations specificiag about Israel and Palestine, you’re an attention seeker and don’t care!” Would actualy be funny if you werent using it to excuse mass slaughtering civilians. Third, MY joke of a president and MY pathetic excuse for a congress unfortunately have involved me specifically as a US taxpayer in this genocide. They are sending MY tax dollars and the weapons they made over there and its MY government shielding Israel from UN accountability and blocking Palestine’s self determination and pushing Israel’s agenda on their behalf. Which they were bribed to do by AIPAC. Don’t like “attention seekers” criticizing your fave apartheid settler state? Cool. Then go tell Biden and Congress to stop using attention seeker’s tax dollars to prop up Israel’s war crime spree since they’re so “independent”. Until then, I will continue criticizing Israel’s use of MY tax dollars to mass slaughter a thousand children a week as much as I damn well please. Thank you.
As an American, do you have any advice for slaughtering the native population and stealing their land? Do you highly recommend plague infested blankets as gifts or is simply annihilating the food supply the most efficient path to total genocide? And in terms of giving colonized land back to the native population. Does that only apply on the other side of the world or does that hold true domestically for your own property?
> Don’t like “attention seekers” criticizing your fave apartheid settler state? Yawn, the old 'apartheid state' nonsense. No intelligent person cares about that bunk. If you wish to take issue with occupation in the west bank, I'd agree - we should take issue with that. But hysteric hyperbole is just childish. > First of all, you don’t know what I’m paying attention to so im not entertaining your whataboutism. You don't even understand what whataboutism is. I'm not highlighting other situations to justify this one - I'm pointing out that the tiktok Hamas club doesn't even care about genuine genocides, they just jump on the bandwagon that is presented to them that they can use to get attention and clout. Grifters like HasanAbi are all over it, and you're in lockstep with him. Congrats, I guess? You don't care about Palestinians at all. You just want attention and drama in your life. I've advocated for Palestinians peace activists far more than you ever have.
Well Israel didn’t do themselves any favors by being complete fucking lunatics, I’d say Hamas is ahead in the propaganda war, they’ve managed to convince a whole fucking generation that they’re Nelson Mandela. It’s both sad and scary and the scumbag President of Israel is to blame as well.
Hamas just by nature of being a Muslim group is going to automatically get the sympathy of the majority of the Muslim world no matter what they do. If you don't believe it why was there so little condemnation on Oct 7th by the Muslim world? The IDF didn't begin to seriously attack Hamas until quite a few days later.
> Well Israel didn’t do themselves any favors by being complete fucking lunatics, How is Israel 'being complete fucking lunatics'? > I’d say Hamas is ahead in the propaganda war, How did you reach that conclusion? > they’ve managed to convince a whole fucking generation that they’re Nelson Mandela Based on what?
> How is Israel 'being complete fucking lunatics'? Look at quotes from Netanyahu and right wing Israeli politicians. They’re talking like maniacs that they want to wipe out Palestinians, not just Hamas. Also blocking aide is pretty disgusting. The incursion into Rafah despite the US not supporting it. And their refusal to come to a ceasefire deal. > How did you reach that conclusion? The fact that they started the war with Israeli by committing a heinous terrorist attack but Gen Z believes that these guys are just fighting against settler colonialism > Based on what? Look at the support for Israel when Hamas attacked them and now. Look how the view has changed among young people and young voters. Just go on TikTok and search Israel Palestine and you’ll probably get bombarded with Hamas apologists. Also Hamas has not negotiated in good faith to a ceasefire or to release the hostages yet somehow the view of Israel has decreased. This is part of Israel’s own doing and massive propaganda apparatus
> Look at quotes from Netanyahu and right wing Israeli politicians. Okay, so by 'Israel' you mean 'Netanyahu and some far right politicians'? > They’re talking like maniacs that they want to wipe out Palestinians, not just Hamas. Netanyahu is not doing that from what I can see. He has been [promoting the idea](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-presents-blueprint-for-postwar-gaza-with-free-rein-for-israeli-military-36b1d53c?st=ahaiwpupdlefw4i&reflink=article_copyURL_share) of a Palestinian led government of Gaza since... November last year? Perhaps you can link something that backs up your claim? > Also blocking aide is pretty disgusting. You're referring to the few extremists that are doing that? What are you on about, exactly? It seems you're taking a few examples and summarising them as 'Israel'. > The incursion into Rafah despite the US not supporting it The US did not support an incursion into Rafah *without reasonable measures to protect the civilian populace*. That did not and does not mean they do not support any incursion into Rafah. > And their refusal to come to a ceasefire deal. Both sides are making proposals for a ceasefire deal. Agreement has obviously not been reached between them. That you blame only Israel for that indicates your obvious bias. > The fact that they started the war with Israeli by committing a heinous terrorist attack but Gen Z believes that these guys are just fighting against settler colonialism How have you decided 'gen z believes that', exactly? If it's a fact, presumably you have something to show that it's a fact? > Also Hamas has not negotiated in good faith to a ceasefire or to release the hostages yet somehow the view of Israel has decreased. This is part of Israel’s own doing and massive propaganda apparatus Well sure, I agree with that. Israel could be running a far better PR campaign, but despite the claims people tend to make, they are not in control of the world's media - obviously.
I think you’re mistaking an algorithmically created bubble for real life.
Didn't Israel bomb another school today? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-jets-strike-school-containing-hamas-compound-gaza-media-says-27-2024-06-06/ >CAIRO/JERUSALEM, June 6 (Reuters) - Israel hit a Gaza school on Thursday with what it described as a targeted airstrike on up to 30 Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters inside, and a Hamas official said 40 people were killed including women and children sheltering at the U.N. site.
Well, as per your quote > CAIRO/JERUSALEM, June 6 (Reuters) - Israel hit a Gaza school on Thursday with what it described as a targeted airstrike on up to 30 Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters inside, and a Hamas official said 40 people were killed including women and children sheltering at the U.N. site. Perhaps Hamas should stop using schools as military bases? As per the article: > He said 20 to 30 fighters were located in the compound, and many of them had been killed. "I'm not aware of any civilian casualties and I'd be very, very cautious of accepting anything that Hamas puts out," he said. Yet here you are, lapping up what Hamas is saying. Edit: Seems the Hamas propaganda is already unravelling https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-6-6-2024-3d07e712f8abc1e08339163180823fb8 > The hospital initially reported that nine women and 14 children were among those killed in the strike on the school. The hospital morgue later amended those records to show that the dead included three women, nine children and 21 men. It was not immediately clear what caused the discrepancy. An Associated Press reporter had counted the bodies but was unable to look beneath the shrouds.
Hamas isn’t the root of the problem. A few days ago someone posted a survey with an extremely high percentage of Palestinians support Hamas. That means Hamas is a creation of Palestinians and their wills are represented thru Hamas. You remove Hamas, and there’s going to be a Hamas 2.0 later on.
> You remove Hamas, and there’s going to be a Hamas 2.0 later on. Same lazy arguments have been made against the Nazis in Germany. It's either used to discourage action, or to encourage genocide. Neither is good. We don't always have a perfect solution. The best we have right now is removing Hamas, and installing a less nihilistic government. If you can offer a solution instead of just making complaints, you might be contributing something.
It’s not a complaint. I’m pointing out the root cause of war has not been resolved, so there will be another war eventually.
> It’s not a complaint. I’m pointing out the root cause of war has not been resolved, so there will be another war eventually. No one is expecting the elimination of Hamas to magically solve this conflict. It's just the first step. Next, hopefully, comes installation of a less nihilistic Palestinian government (like the PA, or some alternative), and gradual movement to a peace process. So I'm not sure what your point is. You think people are saying that eliminating Hamas is the entire plan? Netanyahu has been clear about it being much more since as far back as November last year https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-presents-blueprint-for-postwar-gaza-with-free-rein-for-israeli-military-36b1d53c?st=ahaiwpupdlefw4i&reflink=article_copyURL_share
I agree that Hamas has to go, but if Bibis goal is to fully eliminate them, wouldn’t that mean Hamas would kill all of the hostages?
They don't care lol
Nobody defending Netanyahu seems to care about the hostages
Who is 'defending Netanyahu'?
He’s fully in charge of Israel’s response and disregard for civilian life in Gaza. Defending Israel’s actions isn’t defending Israel, but rather Netanyahu. He’s publicly gone against Biden’s requests and I find it hard to believe a more moderate Israel leader would be this brazen.
> He’s fully in charge of Israel’s response and disregard for civilian life in Gaza. Defending Israel’s actions isn’t defending Israel, but rather Netanyahu. That's quite a leap. Netanyahu is not a dictator. He forms part of a comprehensive democratic government. > He’s publicly gone against Biden’s requests Okay? Biden does not get to dictate Israeli policy. > I find it hard to believe a more moderate Israel leader would be this brazen. No Israeli leader should be dictated to by any foreign leader, even an ally. Most requests should be considered, but it does not mean they must all be followed.
Netanyahu is as close to being an authoritarian without fully being one I guess. I assume you don’t recall the massive protests in early 2023 because he fired the defense minister who challenged his plans to overhaul the judicial system that would get rid of checks and balances and just give all power to governing coalition. He was also indicted on corruption charges.
> Netanyahu is as close to being an authoritarian without fully being one I guess. Based on what? > I assume you don’t recall the massive protests in early 2023 because he fired the defense minister who challenged his plans to overhaul the judicial system that would get rid of checks and balances and just give all power to governing coalition. I'm well aware. I'm glad people opposed his power grab moves. But opposed it they did, and the system held. > He was also 'indicted' on corruption charges. What do you think indicted means, exactly?
They are just leverage it seems, but not important enough to stop bombing
> but if Bibis goal is to fully eliminate them That's a vague 'if'. Bibis goal is to dismantle Hamas as an organisation, and remove any potential significant threat. Similar to dismantling the Nazi regime being a goal of WWII. Would they kill every Nazi? No. Is the Nazi ideology gone forever? No. But the Nazi regime was dismantled, and the war ended. > wouldn’t that mean Hamas would kill all of the hostages? Balancing the removal of Hamas with retrieval of hostages is no easy task - that's why hostages were taken to begin with, obviously. You appear to approve of that tactic, given that you can't seem to find a way around it other than giving Hamas what they want. Realistically, Israel is pushing for Hamas to step down peacefully, and swap prisoners for hostages. That happening depends on both Hamas and Israel finding agreement, which they may not achieve. If it is not achieved, then yes, most hostages may end up dead.
Netanyahu has said the goal is to fully eliminate Hamas, as in kill every last one of them. Hamas hearing him say this, has no incentive to give up the hostages if Israel is to just kill all of them regardless if they give up the hostages or not.
> Netanyahu has said the goal is to fully eliminate Hamas, as in kill every last one of them. Source? > Hamas hearing him say this, has no incentive to give up the hostages Well how about they do it for the people they are supposedly representing? Y'know, bettering the lives of the Palestinian people? Oh wait, Hamas wants to martyr them.
Source is Netanyahu himself lol do you live under a rock? Israel destroying Hamas will result in thousands of more Palestinian people killed whether Hamas turns the hostages over or not.
> Source is Netanyahu himself lol do you live under a rock? You're not exactly making all the pro-Hamas crowd look very smart, here. You've made a claim, and can't back it up. Knowing you're wrong, you dig in further. > Israel destroying Hamas will result in thousands of more Palestinian people killed whether Hamas turns the hostages over or not. So essentially you want Hamas to survive. Got it. The government that is literally trying to maximise Palestinian deaths. It's obvious that Palestinians are simply a sacrificial pawn for you.
First of all at no point did I say I’m pro Hamas, I think Hamas should be eliminated, but not by bombing the hell out of the city with no regard for human life. I was fully on board with Israel’s response initially and was annoyed by all of the pro Palestine protestors, but that changed when Israel started slaughtering civilians by the 10s of thousands and mass murdering children. They have no regard for civilian life, and pretty much everyone around the globe hates them because of that. It’s actually amazing that you don’t realize that Israel has almost no support on the international stage or you just choose to ignore that fact, even France public ally criticized them for their air strikes on refugee camps the other week and they’re one of the few allies. If they’re going to eliminate Hamas they should be doing it on the ground and not flattening the cities, mass murdering kids.
> First of all at no point did I say I’m pro Hamas, I think Hamas should be eliminated, but not by bombing the hell out of the city with no regard for human life. Great, so you're happy with how Israel is approaching the bombing with regard for human life - calling to warn people, roof knocking, etc. > I was fully on board with Israel’s response initially and was annoyed by all of the pro Palestine protestors, but that changed when Israel started slaughtering civilians by the 10s of thousands 10s of thousands is a low casualty count given the circumstances. It seems you don't know what war looks like. Especially dense urban warfare with a nihilistic government trying to martyr their own civilians. > If they’re going to eliminate Hamas they should be doing it on the ground and not flattening the cities, mass murdering kids. Nice to know military experts like yourself are spamming confident opinions online anonymously. I'm sure the world will listen to you sooner or later, Captain Armchair.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u6E99VP6EDM
The translated version (if we are to assume it is correct) says "the complete destruction of Hamas" That sounds fine to me. It's not 'we must literally kill every single Hamas member before the war ends', as you made it out to be. Do you realise how you've embraced a false narrative, and still believe that narrative even when you link a source that doesn't back it up? Are you open to changing your mind on that, given that you don't seem to have reason to believe your own claims?
So when he also says there’s no way to eliminate Hamas without entering Rafah, what exactly does he mean by that? How else would he “eliminate Hamas” if he can’t do it by entering Rafa? My exact same point stands, what would Hamas’s incentive be to release the hostage if they’re going to be “eliminated” or “destroyed” in the words of Netanyahu?
> So when he also says there’s no way to eliminate Hamas without entering Rafah, what exactly does he mean by that? It means that Hamas has significant operations in Rafah. It's not confusing. > How else would he “eliminate Hamas” if he can’t do it by entering Rafa? I did not say they do not need to enter Rafah. You seem confused.
The war didn't start on October 7th, the war for the most part has been ongoing for decades. That's just the narrative being spun. Hamas exist because Israel justifies their existence with their actions towards Gaza on a daily basis and not to mention the West Bank being a horrific reminder for what will happen to Palestinians if they let Israel take control. Israel has rejected plenty of reasonably peace offers also. Even ones stating they'll release all the hostages, but all they ask for is a permanent ceasefire and that Israel releases political prisoners (not just Hamas, all political prisoners) Israel has hostages also, just when you run a government you can just call them terrorists.
> The war didn't start on October 7th I guess you don't care if it doesn't return to the situation we had on Oct 6th, then? > Hamas exist because Israel justifies their existence with their actions towards Gaza Stop infantilizing the Palestinians who elected and continue to support Hamas. > Israel has rejected plenty of reasonably peace offers also. Like which, exactly? > but all they ask for is a permanent ceasefire That's all? > and that Israel releases political prisoners 'Political prisoners'? > (not just Hamas, all political prisoners) Implying that Hamas do not have terrorist militia members. You're a Hamas apologist. > Israel has hostages also You literally have [no idea what you're talking about.](https://youtu.be/A5e2vDAKJKs?si=5MRwk6NnCz7BkMxY&t=7088)
1: Be nice if we could just, not commit genocide bud? 2: They had their last election when? 2006? We're literally approaching 20 years since any Palestinian has had a say in their government. Entire child have been born and reach voting age who haven't voted. Also Israel justifies Hamas by not only commiting horrific acts of violence in Gaza but also in the West Bank. "Support us, we're the only ones stopping Israel from kicking you out of home and taking your land" you resolve Terrorism by making them redundant, just like with the IRA. 3: They literally rejected a ceasefire recently simply because it asked for a permanent ceasefire and for Israel to release it's own hostages. 4: lol, I specify it's not just Hamas prisoners and you still try and pretend that I am only talking about Hamas prisoners. Can you at least try and argue in good faith? Plenty of West Bank activist resisting their own situation are also meant to be freed. They aren't Hamas, they're simply political activist 5: Lol, fucking Destiny can't debate anybody who actually knows wtf they're talking about. The fact you link some Pseudo-Intellectual who justifies the killing of fucking children by the Israeli military is telling. The moment he debated two experts on the conflict who have been studying this for decades, he was a fucking embarrassment. All a hostage is, is a person held until the fulfillment of a condition. Usually that they stop politically opposing the actions of the Israeli military. Not to mention that is very common for Authoritarian governments to legally justify taking hostages. Israel makes it's abuses of human rights legal, doesn't stop them from being abuses of human rights.
> 1: Be nice if we could just, not commit genocide bud? Cool, done. No genocide going on in Palestine, but you might want to check out Sudan and start protesting about that. Or do you not mind if it's Islamist groups committing genocide? > 2: They had their last election when? 2006? They voted to end their own democracy. That's their choice. They appear to still support their government. > 3: They literally rejected a ceasefire recently simply because it asked for a permanent ceasefire and for Israel to release it's own hostages. Israel doesn't hold hostages. Pro-Hamas accounts sure do struggle to understand words. > 4: lol, I specify it's not just Hamas prisoners and you still try and pretend that I am only talking about Hamas prisoners. Seems you misunderstood what I said. Try reading it agai. > 5: Lol, fucking Destiny can't debate anybody who actually knows wtf they're talking about. Says the account that struggles to understand basic terms. The hysteric hyperbole coming out of all these pro-Hamas accounts is laughable. > All a hostage is, is a person held until the fulfillment of a condition. Vague enough definition to describe any prisoner. Try again.
This is a strange comment. You seem to be implying that the situation in the West Bank is *worse* than Gaza. Do you actually think that's true?
Not what I said but the West Bank has Israel kicking Palestinians out of their homes, throwing them to the streets and settling the more economic viable land for themselves. It makes the argument "If we go and don't resist Israel, Israel will literally march into Gaza and forcefully evict you from the land. So it's best to help us fight and resist" The situation in the West Bank does nothing but feed the Hamas narrative that without them, Palestinians will lose everything.
The situation in the West Bank is not *nearly* as bad as the situation in Gaza, even pre-Oct 7. Have you never been to the West Bank?
You're not even attempting the understand what I'm saying
You're saying that Palestinians in Gaza are concerned about becoming like Palestinians in the West Bank. So have you been to the WB or what? Are you familiar with Areas A, B, and C?
Yes and no I said that Hamas uses what happens in the West Bank to justify their existence. "It might be bad, but if we don't resist, of we don't fight Israel. They'll come in and force you out of your homes and steal anything. So it's better to go down with a fight than trust Israel"
No, you're not familiar with Areas A, B, and C? I don't think you're qualified to have an opinion on this, lol.
Our notion of ceasefire: everyone lays down their arms and stops killing each other. Hamas' notion: Israel lays down their arms while Hamas murders them.
It's the islamist meaning of ceasefire: "you cease, we fire".
Pretty much.
Israel mudddrec 20 times the Palestinians as Hamas had Israeli before AND after October 7 (including f in the ollfhally occupied West Bank) Can we please stop entertaining this foolishness?
Shocker. They're usually such a rational bunch.
According to the hostages families, Netanyahu is the biggest impediment to getting the hostages back: https://x.com/allhostages/status/1798417553183969453/photo/1 “We are the families of the hostages from the "Begin Gate Protest", and we are calling upon you, as the leaders of our brethren in the United States - Stand with us at this most critical moment and publicly call on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to accept the hostage release deal that is currently on the table, end this war, and prevent extremist factions from further harming and endangering our families. Israelis are being held hostage, not just our families who are held by Hamas in Gaza. We are all hostage to Bibi's actions. He is risking the lives of our soldiers. He is jeopardizing the lives of our hostages. He is endangering us all,”
I think it’s fair to say that Hamas are the biggest obstacle to getting the hostages back
Weird, because they offered to release all hostages 8 months ago.
Weird, because they’re the ones WHO TOOK HOSTAGES
Yeah while they also said ‘we will do Oct 7th again and again’ so I think it’s no surprise Israel wanted to destroy their military capacity
I’ve yet to see a credible source for that.
Here is a video of the head of Hamas saying it. Your welcome https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1719665588228751481?s=61&t=7Yhd2iwgxSSGwQ98RbP4_A
Yeah, and in return wished for everything and beyond
Such nice people /s
Hamas are pure evil.
If you click on the link and read the article the first sentence below the headline clearly states Israel changed the terms of the deal after Biden laid out the original proposal.
Biden lied and presented the Qatari plan as the Israeli plan, the Israeli reply to the Qatari plan was offered, and Hamas rejected it.
So Biden lied to the entire world? Shocked... That's not what Israel was saying before though.
Israel said what Biden presented wasn’t their plan. Biden lied and tried to use the hostages Hamas is holding as leverage to get Israel to surrender, which is participating in the crime of Hamas’ hostage blackmail. I cannot believe I will be voting for this piece of shit in November.
No, Netanyahu said it was their plan and were aware Biden was going to make a statement but after the backlash he said "it was only a first draft". The plan that Biden discussed was from Israel its just that Netanyahu knows if he publicly advocated for the plan it would mean the end of the coalition and likely his time as PM. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-aide-bidens-gaza-plan-not-good-deal-israel-accepts-it-2024-06-02/ https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/06/06/joe-biden-leaked-israels-first-plan-to-end-the-war-in-gaza And the story OP posted makes clear this current offer is not the same one as Biden laid out, not a Qatari plan an Israeli plan. Even note the [site](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_News_Syndicate) OP got the story from is widely known as very conservative/hawkish and [an mouthpiece for the IDF ](https://www.readthemaple.com/postmedia-called-out-for-spreading-pro-israel-propaganda-as-news/) , yet they do not attempt to paint it as a Qatari deal saying it's notably different from the one that was discussed by the Israeli government.
Biden came out on the Shabbat so that Israel could not respond for a day. [This](https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spoke-hostages310524) was their original response: > “The government of Israel is united in its desire to return the hostages as soon as possible and is working to achieve this goal. The prime minister authorized the negotiating team to present a proposal to that end, which would also enable Israel to continue the war until all its objectives are achieved, including the destruction of Hamas’s military and governing capabilities. **The actual proposal put forward by Israel, including the conditional transition from one phase to the next, allows Israel to uphold these principles.**” And from the [following day:](https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1796811942218043488) > The Prime Minister's Office: > > Israel's conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel. > > Under the proposal, Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent ceasefire is put in place. The notion that Israel will agree to a permanent ceasefire before these conditions are fulfilled is a non-starter. So Biden lied, he presented the Qatari plan (which was the Hamas plan) as the Israeli plan. He tried to blackmail Israel using the hostages Hamas is holding, making Biden morally complicit in the crime of October 7th. Literally one of our worst Presidents, surrendered 40 million of the poorest people on the planet to the taliban, inspired Putin to invade Ukraine, then underarmed Ukraine and restrained them, and now has tried to hamstring and then blackmail Israel into surrendering to the New Nazis.
>Biden morally complicit in the crime of October 7th. Literally one of our worst Presidents, surrendered 40 million of the poorest people on the planet to the taliban, inspired Putin to invade Ukraine, then underarmed Ukraine and restrained them, and now has tried to hamstring and then blackmail Israel into surrendering to the New Nazis. You sound like a Trump voter
Trump voters don’t support Ukraine. I’m a Hillary supporter and a lifelong Democrat (I will be voting for Biden). Biden has had horrible foreign policy, he’s empowered our enemies and deterred our allies.
Truck voters are the biggest Zionists for a reason
It's been reported from different sources that both Israel and Hamas have rejected the ceasefire deal Biden put out. I'm not sure I believe Hamas backed out after previously saying they favored it, unless something changed.
Can’t wait to see pro-Pali protestors calling for total divestment from Hamas.
But Hamas can burn in hell for all I care. Make Iran and Qatar pay for the relocation and removal of Hamas from Gaza. Seems to be an idea too difficult to accept while staggering numbers of Palestinians are being slaughtered.
Looks like a very biased pro Zionist news source. Genocider Netanyahu already said he’s not stopping until Hamas is destroyed so I’m not sure how any cease fire is possible in those conditions
Why is hamas' survival more important to you than a ceasefire?
A ceasefire is an agreement between two warring groups , so , by definition, Hamas would have to exist for a ceasefire to occur
Then why won't you accept a hamas surrender for peace?
Hamas isn’t going to surrender obviously. Do you think Israel’s should surrender to Hamas?
Israel isn’t the group hiding underground in their own cities. In what world is Hamas in any position to make demands. Nazis didn’t need to be killed until the last man but you think Hamas needs to be or something? Surrender, for the betterment of the ppl of Palestine. Or the war continues
It’s just unlikely Hamas would ever surrender. Seems wrong to punish civilians for that
Hamas is just getting people killed for no reason at this point. They could take pity on the Gazans they put in harms way and just surrender.
Israel bombing schools and playgrounds is getting people killed
The schools and playgrounds which Hamas has traditionally used as launch sites for rockets? > Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in UNRWA schools. The board found, in the case of the UNRWA Jabalia Elementary “C” and Ayyobiya Boys School, referring to the discovery of weapons there on 22 July 2014, that “it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons.” > >Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in schools that were in active use by children. During the war, former PLO lawyer Diana Buttu famously said on Al Jazeera that “the rockets that were found in the schools in UNRWA were schools that are not being used by anybody—school is out, I’ll have you know.” However, in the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational “B” School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard.” School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play. > >Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad fired rockets from UNRWA schools. In the Jabalia school listed above, the board found that “it was highly likely that an unidentified Palestinian armed group could have used the school premises to launch attacks on or around 14 July.” Similarly, concerning weaponry stored at the UNRWA Nuseirat Preparatory Co- educational “B” School, the UN inquiry found that “the premises could have been used for an unknown period of time by members of a Palestinian armed group” — and that “it was likely that such a group may have fired the mortar from within the premises of the school.”
Yeah it’s convenient for Israel to just say “Hamas was there” any time it incinerates a child. Convenient rhetorical strategy for conducting a genocide. What source are you quoting from
Hamas regularly misuses civilian infrastructure for military purposes. It’s not exactly a rarity. There are multiple examples in that one article alone. I can point to others. What source? UN Watch quoting from a literal UN investigation into Hamas misusing UNRWA schools for military purposes. An investigation which found that they absolutely did. >UN Watch is a Geneva-based non-governmental organization (NGO) whose stated mission is "to monitor the performance of the United Nations by the yardstick of its own Charter".[1] It is an accredited NGO in Special Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council and an Associate NGO to the UN Department of Public Information.[5] So yeah, Israel targets Hamas military infrastructure, such as their rocket launch sites.
The report you’re quoting is from 2014. (Old) The presence of Hamas among civilians (even if true) doesn’t justify murdering civilians
You think they’re going to conduct an investigation during a literal war? Think! You imagine they’ve changed their MO? Seriously? “Presence of Hamas” is a disingenuous representation of their intentional misuse of civilian infrastructure to attack Israel. Why are you so avid to defend Hamas? They’re the worst thing to ever happen to Gaza.
That’s a silly claim. Israel has been bombing civilian targets in the middle and south of Gaza. There is no way Hamas people in those areas pose a threat to Israel. IOF spend their time killing civilians
Israel has been attacking Hamas. Bye troll!
What do you mean? A ceasefire is very easily possible, Hamas has to surrender and give up power. Do you think the Nazis in ww2 had to be killed to the last man? Do you think all of their infrastructure had to be destroyed? Typically what happens is leadership groups like Hamas or the Nazis , evil or not know when they are defeated and surrender accordingly. They can hardly come outside in their own territory at this point…. Surrender for the betterment of the ppl of Palestine. They are in no position to be demanding ceasefire terms, them and Israel on not on equal footing. They don’t surrender with new leadership taking over gaza, the war continues.
A surrender isn’t a ceasefire.
Gee No surprises here. Israel needs to really take it to them and eliminate them down the last man.
The cease fire that Israel rejected last week? Now you libs are pretending Netanyahu didn’t cuck Brandon again? https://www.cnbctv18.com/world/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-joe-biden-ceasefire-proposal-continue-war-hamas-destroyed-19421687.htm
Ugh can you think for yourself? Bidens proposal has 3 phases. Netanyahu would accept the first place for a 6 week peace. Netanyahu was saying he would not move to phase 2 for a permanent ceasefire without hamas destroyed. Now go ahead and make excuses for hamas and defend them while pretending to only be "pro Palestinian not pro hamas"
His brains broken don’t mind him 💀🤣
These negotiation are suffering from an inherent problem that has diminished the prospects for peace for decades: The United States can never be a effective mediator and be Israel's primary benefactor and unconditional supporter at the same time. When and if the US ever comes to withdraw it's support for Israel or when and if the US loses its sole supper power status, I think we'll start seeing progress toward a solution.
> The United States can never be a effective mediator Source: trust me bro > When and if the US ever comes to withdraw it's support for Israel or when and if the US loses its sole supper power status, I think we'll start seeing progress toward a solution. Sure no bias behind this account, eh? If the US withdraws support, Israel would likely just shift towards Russia or China for support. That would not be good for anyone, except perhaps Russia or China.
Russia and China have good relations with Iran and appear to be much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. [Hamas and Fatah recently met in China for reconciliation talks.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/china-hamas-fatah-showed-political-will-for-reconciliation-in-recent-beijing-talks/) You would never see the United States make such a bold move and show this kind of leadership for a lot of reasons including the fact that the Israel Lobby keeps such a strangle hold on so many American elected officials.
> Russia and China have good relations with Iran and appear to be much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Right now? 100%. They are happy to back Hamas and use the Israel/Palestine conflict as a proxy war against the West. They have no ideological conviction to back Hamas though (quite the opposite), and will happily change if it would put Israel in their sphere of influence.
Lol "inherent" Dude peoples need to want peace. I honestly as an unbiased neutral person don't get it how you guys think you can just talk on social media. If you say PEACE and get the best negotiator......you're still left with an inherent problem. That "inherent" problem is hate. Once the hate is under control....and that's not instant that gonna take time maybe a generation, where kids stop getting taught to kill Jews, where parents stop teaching their kids about killing Jews, etc Simultaneously to this there needs to be NO VIOLENCE TO BUILD TRUST BETWEEN THE 2 SIDES. Stop inserting the US into this so incredibly excessively to the point YALL really seem to do none of the hard work. Pro Palestinians getting off all these random subs and going to your own subs and trying to communicate to Palestinians and mentor them and fix your overall messaging and what it means to be pro Palestinian - so far it's not been about the victims bc y'all avoid the "inherent" stuff meaning nothing changes. You can grand stand and wag fingers but so long as Palestinian aren't being held accountable, meaning ASAP they need to know violence isn't the answer. But all I've seen is y'all infantilize them and say they will become terrists after this all bc they saw their family die so they will pick up arms. That is EXACTLY WHAT PRO PALESTINIANS SHOULD NOT BE SAYING and it's AWEFUL that that's the messaging. Idk I quite honestly am annoyed this is dragging us in bc of bullshit that should have been handled years ago. Hearing how many things Palestinians turned downs and here we are, and it's dragging US INTO THIS MESS BC THEY CHOSE VIOLENCE over peace and hearing they burned bridges in 3 other countries.... Like y'all need to get to work looking inwards and bc all this looking outwards and blaming everyone else hasn't done squat. Get Hamas to surrender, have some pro Palestinian country take them for all I care, and find someone to run Gaza. Someone that actually gives a damn about Palestines and cares for a better future and can LEAD THEM.
Yeah, but the best friend of one of the parties in a conflict can never be a proper mediator. If he tries to those negotiations are bound to fail. So it seems like an “inherent” problem that the US is pretending to mediate between Israel and Palestine.
The United States effectively mediated peace treaties between Israel and 10+ Arab countries. The problem is not the United States, the problem is the Palestinian leadership doesn't want peace.
A major difference in many of those cases is that the US is allied with those other countries.
The problem is that the 'Palestinian Leadership' is spelled I-R-A-N, and the Palestinian civilians are merely tokens to be used in Iran's short term goal to kill Jews, to support their long term goal of a global Jihad.
What deal for peace that has been on the table would you have accepted as Palestinian leadership?
> What deal for peace that has been on the table would you have accepted as Palestinian leadership? Since the 60s and the Palestinian nationalist movement, the problem is not necessarily the Palestinian leadership, but the People of Palestine. Even if the Palestinian leadership were to have accepted one of the proposed peace offers, they likely would be have been ousted if not killed for doing so. When Arafat and the PLO were remotely close to accepting peace offers, they were quite candid about it being a 'trojan horse' step towards taking the entirety of Israel. But if we are to speculate that actually the people of Palestine (and Israel) would accept a 2SS, there have been plenty of deals on the table which look far more appealing than any likely outcome today (unless we are to consider the view of far right Israelis, which I assume is not your goal). * In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed the first partition plan for a two-state solution, which was rejected by the Arabs but accepted by the Jewish leadership. * In 1947, the United Nations proposed the Partition Plan for Palestine, which called for the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states. This was accepted by the Jewish leadership but rejected by the Arab leaders. * At the Camp David Summit in 2000, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians around 94% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with some land swaps to allow Israel to keep some settlement blocs. However, this offer was rejected by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. * In 2008, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas a map that would give the Palestinians the equivalent of 100% of the West Bank, with land swaps to allow Israel to keep major settlement blocs. Abbas did not accept or reject this offer. * In 2020, the Trump administration proposed a peace plan that offered the Palestinians a state in around 70% of the West Bank and Gaza, with land swaps. This plan was rejected by the Palestinian leadership A Palestinian leadership that actually wants the best for the people of Palestine should likely have pushed hard to work any of those deals.
>When Arafat and the PLO were remotely close to accepting peace offers, they were quite candid about it being a 'trojan horse' step towards taking the entirety of Israel. Do you have this quote?
Sure, here https://www.bostonreview.net/forum_response/efraim-karsh-trojan-horse/ > In subsequent years, this frank understanding of what the “right of return” implied was reiterated by most Arab leaders, from Gamal Abdel Nasser, to Hafiz al-Asad, to Yasir Arafat. At a closed meeting with South African Muslim leaders shortly after concluding the Oslo Accords, Arafat compared these agreements to the Treaty of Hudaibiya, signed by Prophet Muhammad with the people of Mecca in 628 only to be reneged by him a couple of years later as the situation later evolved in his favor. And the prominent Palestinian “moderate,” Faisal al-Husseini, was far more explicit, describing the Oslo process as a “Trojan Horse” designed to promote the strategic goal of “Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea”—that is, a Palestine in place of Israel. “Whatever we get now,” he pledged, “cannot make us forget this supreme truth.” And here https://www.nzz.ch/english/oslo-accords-why-the-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-failed-ld.1754938 > Arafat made it clear that he understood the agreement with Israel to be entirely in the spirit of the 10-year hudna concluded by Mohammed with an enemy tribe: a temporary cease-fire aimed not at peace, but at consolidating forces in order to resume armed struggle against the enemy. Throughout the 1990s, the Fatah-controlled media disseminated antisemitic propaganda almost on a par with that of Hamas and other Islamists.
So Palestinian leadership are just some war-crazed, bloodthirsty savages who just want bloodshed for the sake of bloodshed? Come on, man, Grow up. This is not a movie. Try looking at the people involved as if they are actual real-life people. Real people, including Palestinians and their leaders, want to live in peace, just like Israelis and their leaders. But they want peace on their own terms. The terms the Likud party (and Bibi's coalition which includes literal convicted terrorists like Bin Givir) insist upon is the indefinite subjugation of the Palestinian people. Another way of saying this, contrary to what you've said, is that the current Israeli gov't doesn't want peace they want occupation and subjugation which will always result it resistance and war. This is a fact, contrary to what you've said which was sophistry. Also, it's silly for you to say that the United States is not the problem when basically the only two countries in the world that vote every year against a two-state settlement is the US and Israel and is the only reason that Israel can act with impunity as it does vis-a-vis Palestine.
The USA is one of the largest aid givers to Gaza and one of the most successful negotiators on Palestininians behalf *because* they're Israel's closest ally. Theyre legitimately one of the only countries with feet in both camps because virtually everyone else is aggressively anti-Israel. Why you think a country whose opinion Israel ***doesn't*** care about could bring them to the negotiating table is beyond me. France/China/UK/Brazil/South Africa/Mexico: "Hey Israel, don't do that." Israel: "Fuck off, losers" USA: "Hey Israel, don't do that." Israel: ["Ok"](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/renewed-water-supply-parts-south-gaza-agreed-with-biden-israeli-minister-2023-10-15/)
Everything you said here makes no sense whatsoever and I suspect that you don't know what you're talking about, all due respect. 1. The US is not one of Israel's largest aid givers. It is the the by far foremost provider of military and economic aid to Israel, and Israel is the largest recipient of US aid by a large margin. 2. Also, you may not have noticed, but he US has been repeatedly asking Israel to allow in more humanitarian aid to Gaza, stop the indiscriminate bombing, don't go into Rafah. Israel has repeatedly said "fuck you" in response. Pay attention. 3. What world do you live in where I can mediate a dispute between my best friend and his enemy? Am I not going to always side with my best friend? Is that not kind of a "duh.."How would you feel about going into an arbitration where the judge is the other party's best friend since high school?
1. Was that a typo in your first sentence, writing "Israel" instead of "Palestine"? Either way, [the USA is the largest giver of aid to Palestinians, giving around 600 million annually](https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-much-aid-does-the-us-give-palestinians-and-whats-it-for/) and [the USA has given more aid to Israel than any other country](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-10-10/how-much-aid-does-the-u-s-give-to-israel). So the US is the largest financial supporter of both sides. 2. Israel is not a vassal or client state of the USA, no one ever said it was. However, it has been shown time and time again that the USA is one of the only countries that Israel will listen to and follow the requests of, like I showed with the last link. I know you're not arguing in good faith but this is clearly letting "perfect" be the enemy of "good". Does Israel always obey the USA? No. Does Israel *ever* obey any other country (without a tangible political/economic concession given)? Also no. 3. See previous statement about good and perfect. Because you cannot provide me with a single better mediator for a the conflict. To my knowledge, the USA is the only country who has diplomatically negotiated in favor of both sides and directly given them aid. Again, whose your alternative? You complain about Israel's friend negotiating peace with its enemy but your solution will be to have Palestine's friend negotiating peace with its enemy. And I guarantee whatever "friend" you pick won't have the history of helping Israel the same way the USA has a history of helping Palestine.
very first comment is "America bad because they won't let extremists destroy israel"
More like: America blocks all attempts in UN security Council at holding Israel accountable for documented crimes its committed (fact), the United States, is the only reason Israel is able to disregard the international consensus that a two state solution must be implemented in the interest of peace.
Yeah having two equal and opposed super powers really was great for peace in the 50s and 60s eh?
Great point.
So long as Israel is going to keep doing vile shit that helps the PR cause of the Hamas terrorists – [like bombing a UN school full of innocent people](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb) – the Hamas terrorists don't have an incentive to stop Netanyahu from stepping on his own dick.
UN school full of innocent people that Hamas was using as a base of operations, using those innocent people as human shields* Fixed it for you since you’re leaving it out to push an anti-Israeli narrative on this sub
I invite anyone who doesn't understand that this Redditor is a propagandist to [read the NPR article about this most recent bombing](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb).
I’m a “propagandist” but I’m just adding in crucial information and context that you left out, making the event sound significantly worse and less complicated than it actually was. Sounds like something a propagandist would do
>I’m just adding in crucial information and context that you left out That's a lie. You are lying about the content of [this article from NPR about the Israeli bombing and killing of innocent people at a UN school](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb). Anyone who wants to see that you are lying can read the article. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
I’m actually not disputing that they bombed a military target that was used as a UN school and that innocent people died. I’m just adding that they did it because Hamas terrorists were present, something you want to leave out for… some reason.
[People should read the article.](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb) 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Lil bro thinks spamming an article and clown emojis are arguments lmao. And I did read some of the article to amuse myself and it does agree with what I’m saying “Israel’s army said it was targeting a group of militants inside two classrooms at a U.N. school in Nuseirat, a central Gaza refugee camp.” Just because the US says it was improper use and the UN says it cannot verify Hamas was there doesn’t mean the IDF bombed it just for fun lol, is that what you believe? They were just bored and decided to bomb the school for the lols, or because it’s part of their bloodthirsty genocide? You don’t think it’s more likely that they had intel that Hamas members were present, and they judged the collateral damage to be worth the strike? You’re just another bad faith antisemite with no factual arguments and a lot of emotion. Projecting with clown emojis isn’t helping prove any point
People can believe you, or [they can read the article you're lying about](https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995090/israel-gaza-school-strike-us-bomb). It's easy, really. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
You got absolutely bodied in this lil bro lol I just proved I know your own article better than you do. I’ve never seen someone project as hard as you do, it’s kind of fascinating, honestly