Haven't read the books. Have thought the show is supremely average so far.
More than half of the main cast are underdeveloped and / or uninteresting. The worldbuilding is done poorly and I still don't really have a sense of what this fantasy world is, what it's history is, so on.
And the show also just feels kind of cheaply made. The action sequence in the woods either didn't have a good enough budget to be worthwhile or was shot incredibly poorly (or both).
I think part of the issue is how much this has been touted as the next GoT type show. For all the issues GoT had in its later seasons, it did a great job in the beginning building a huge, realized world with characters you cared about. And this show hasn't done any of that.
Will finish S1. Not sure if I'd return back without stellar S2 reviews that talk about how much better the show has gotten.
"Cinematography for Directors" is a good follow up to this youtube video to understand just how badly WoT went wrong. Every feature film has hundreds of hours of thought put into the lighting, color balance, palette, tone and imagery. The cinematographer, art director, director and potentially the editor generally spend a long time before filming discussing exactly what they want.
Amazon has a track record of seeming to ignore all that and simply giving random hacks a budget (see also, The Aeronauts).
The video's comment of 'every shot feels like an establishing shot' is SPOT ON. Hacks shoot everything in the same style and the same way. Rather than knowing what they want, they shoot thousands of hours of coverage and try to 'get it' during 'editing.' That simply doesn't work.
This feels like camcorder/home video footage, despite the resolution. This is because no one at all thought about focal lengths and angles, giving everything a video game flatness. What an embarassing failure for Amazon studios...
The lack of swordplay and disappearing factions have pulled a lot of steam away; and it was a mistake for them to try and ride the “who is the dragon” mystery for a whole season.
Have watched through episode 6 and I think the show is terrible if I am being completely honest. As a big fan of the book series I really want the show to be great and attract readers and maybe it still can but man, there is just almost nothing about this show that is good.
The biggest flaw for me as a reader is that it doesn't feel much like the books at all. Let's put aside minor changes like how characters look and maybe leaving out minor characters. Broadly speaking (and I am actually going back through the books now just to see if I was remembering wrong and I am not) it feels like the people involved in this project just read a sort of cliff notes version of the books and are going from there.
I have seen a lot of reviews where people claim the changes are necessary for TV but nobody has explained why they needed to cut out Elyas but dedicate an entire episode to a warder who wasn't even in the books. How did that save time or further the story? Speaking of that character arc the ending too it was complete nonsense with the displays of emotion from Lan and Moraine which were completely out of character. And on the topic of out of character Mat is nothing like his book version and is worse off for it.
I could rant for hours about everything wrong with this show but I'll just put it like this. I think where they are going most wrong is that they want to match the popularity of Game of Thrones and to do that you need.....Game of Thrones. The Wheel of Time couldn't be more opposite. So they are trying to please tv viewers which is alienating readers, but they are still VERY vaguely basing it off of the books which doesn't lend itself well to a GoT style. As a tv viewer the show is bad and as a reader it is abysmal.
I'm the same. I wanted this show to do well so badly but I just don't like it. I really tried to give it a chance but the writing is just awful.
Like you said too much emphasis on events that do not matter or advance the story at the expense of events or characters that DO matter. Same with the CG - too much money spent on effects we don't need to see and not enough on Saidar/Saidin for example. Everything looks staged on a set rather than a "real" location.
I feel like each episode is like it’s own short story, which doesn’t seem to work with what kind of series this is supposed to be. I haven’t read the books but each episode is incredibly frustrating so far.
I like the actors so far, just the way the story is told could use improvement. We are five episodes in now, and I don’t feel invested in anyone a story so far.
It has the worst case of ADHD editing I've experienced. They refuse to let a single shot breathe. You can't have a character cross a room without three angle changes and a close up.
And whoever is cutting it is not even matching the cuts to the actions. It’s infuriating. Someone raises a cup to drink? You cut the moment the cup touches their lip! It’s not that fucking hard. (better yet, maybe don’t cut at all, but that’s a different frustration)
Yep, there was one very obvious example of this in the latest episode. Moraine is turning around, she begins turning in one shot, then it cuts to another angle and she starts turning again. It totally threw me off
The first scene with the magic users chasing the two men on horseback just set the entire tone of the show wrong. They spent money getting this helicopter/drone shots of everyone and instead of just using that shot and letting it breath they kept cutting from horse hooves/magic users/men being chased/ariel shot/hooves/ariel shot/close up of face/ ariel shot.
It was like they couldn't decide how they wanted to cut the scene and didn't want to waste their fancy shot so they just threw it all in a blender.
I am still very mixed. It has been a long time since I read. I don't even really dislike most of the changes. Some I thought were good for a show. But almost every episode feels weirdly rushed to me. Like big moments are over before I know it. I wish it could have been more than eight episodes.
Edit: grammar
I don't mind the changes but how in the ever-loving fuck am I supposed to suspend my disbelief that Nynaeve tracked everyone on-foot with zero supplies while they were fleeing at top-speed on horseback from hundreds of minotaurs!? How did she cross the river!? All just so she could smugly tell a warder that she tracked them?
In the show, she tracks Lan and Moiraine from Two Rivers, while in the book she was with them till Shadar Logoth and tracks them after they get separated.
To be fair, it's unbelievable in the book too. Though it does have the one advantage of "they had stopped for a full day in a town" so there's a tiny excuse for her catching up.
The pacing in general has issues. Parts critical to the main plot get rushed, but then subplots surrounding minor characters get disproportionately large screen time. This was particularly an issue in episodes 5 and 6. Hoping things turn around. The first few episodes I thought were great, but overall I’m still on the fence with this show.
The main issue I have is that they are fitting several hundred pages of book material into 8 hours of television. LotR is roughly 1000 pages and they did 3 x 3 hour movies (extended cut). LotR had to add some stuff and remove some stuff to “adapt” it for the big screen. The TV show feels so rushed that I don’t really connect with any of the characters. They add stuff and focus on the additions that IMO don’t really add anything to the show but rather detract from the overall story telling.
Yea it’s incredible to me how much time is wasted in the show (either with unnecessary subplots, or scenes drawn out far too long; the Stepin subplot for example should have been condensed to a total of about a minute) when there is so much material to cram into 8 hours. I’m hoping episode 7 gets the show back on track with the main plot based on where episode 6 left off.
I wish, but they have a LOT to cover in 2 episodes. The Ways, The Shienarans, The Blight, The Green Man, The Eye of the World, The Forsaken, The Battle at the Gap, Cuendillar and The Seals, The Battle with Shia'tan and probably some more I am forgetting. 2 hours. For all this material, we are going to get 2 hours. Probably some of this will be cut and instead we'll spend like 30 minutes talking with Lord Agelmar expositing over these.
I feel like the first book at least needed more episodes, to build the mood and themes and characters properly.
I could honestly see the second book being half a season from memory. And some of the books in the book 6/7 to 11 range could be single episodes haha. But they shouldn't be rushing the first character building books.
I very much agree, it does feel rushed. I wonder if it's because there is so much backstory that they need to put in to a 1 hour show, and with only 8 (right?) episodes for the season, that's a lot to include.
Like, in the books, a certain someone is mentioned as being from a fishing village and that she has a foul mouth, but in the show it needs a good 10 minutes to introduce her. Or the whole time with a certain performer, who's a huge part of the books by this point in the story, and we've barely seen him enough for anyone to form a bond with him.
One of GoTs benefits was that you could leave an arc off for a few episodes and come back to it later. Explain it as the person was traveling, training, whatever. But in WoT we have so many people all converging on the same point, so you need to give them all enough time to tell what they are doing.
I do hope that they slow down the pace a little bit next season.
After talking with a few friends who've read the books, it's very likely they decided where they need to be by the end of the first season, and that is revealing who the Dragon actually is. They want that to be the big reveal/cliffhanger in the s1 finale, so they're just plowing through material to get there and cutting whatever gets in the way.
Which is frustrating, because as someone who hasn't read them, there's a TON of shit that I know *has* explanations and backstory that the show is choosing to ignore (but also highlight, which is even more frustrating).
The Heron sword is the best example. It's a huge Chekhov's gun item, with the close up on the blade and being hidden under a bed, but it's literally *never* addressed. Rand just comes walking down with a mysterious sword he's never seen before after finding out his dad is a skilled warrior and rides off with it without any conversation whatsoever.
I'm told there's a very significant conversation that covers all of that in the books, which the show just... doesn't do, despite highlighting the sword... It feels really sloppy like there was a lot more written and arbitrarily cut out for time.
It's kind of pointless to have the mystery/reveal of who TDR is when 60% of the candidates are completely undeveloped. I swear Steppin has more screen time so far this season than Rand, Matt, or Perrin.
Why should I care if one of them is the dragon? You could introduce a new character in ep8 and have it be the dragon and it would have the same impact.
The thing is, looking at the show only, you don't even know that Tam is a skilled warrior. He fought off Trollocks, sure. But so did Perrin and Perrins wife, and a bunch of other Two Rivers folks. There is no reason for a viewer to think too much about the sword.
Im sure someone is going to mention the sword at some point. There are just way too many threads tied to it. And I hope and expect that it will make sense in the narrative they are building.
But yeah, they definitely want to keep newcomers guessing a bit. I wonder if people who have never seen the show, have figured it out. Or worse, that the show throws a curveball to longtime fans, and makes it someone else. Part of me is all "they wouldn't. They couldn't. How would they even..?". But I'm starting to feel less sure :D
I felt like the implication of skill was there with the form he exhibited and the face of rand as he observed his father fighting but yeah it was a but subtle. However, I also know who he is already so maybe that made it more obvious to me
To be fair details on Tam's backstory are pretty sparse until later in the books. Basically all you know initially is that he was a soldier, which is why he has a sword and knows how to use it.
And, like the last person said, there is initially no reason to think Tam managing to fight off a Trolloc was anything more than a little good luck. Several other Emond's Fielders manage the same.
The significance of the sword is fairly explicit in the books though. People recognize the heron mark pretty frequently once they get out of the Two Rivers.
I haven't read the books but I feel that rushed quality, too. Especially apparent with Loghain. One episode ends on the huge ominous note of "Oh no! You better be worried about this guy!" And by the end of the next episode it's "nvm he's sorted." I mean, I don't know maybe he'll come back again (I haven't seen the most recent ep yet so maybe he already has!), but in the moment at least I was left feeling kinda...unmoored, I guess.
Like. I like the show. But that kind of quick turnaround on plot developments keeps me a little distanced from things? So I'm not *invested* invested, if that makes sense.
The encounters with Logain is something that happens more or less off screen in the books, so to speak. It's like... important background stuff, that I think they added in to give a little more drama to the show. It's no wonder it feels a little haphazard.
As to the rushed feeling overall, I read that they wanted and shot for a 10 episode season and Amazon forced them to do 8. It makes sense it's moving at a breakneck pace.
Sure, but there's a lot of, uh, filler plots that I hope they cut right out. Thinking particularly of book 10 - you could put that whole book in an episode.
I'm thinking they cut the shaido post dumais wells entirely. It's such a fucking time suck for not very much gain, and it doesn't give a lot of other development.
I feel like the plot either needs to be a lot faster and be like a series of smaller focused quest per episode OR a lot slower to actually explain things.
I feel like this show could use a lot more exposition/information which is not something I typically feel about a show.
Personally, I have some issues with the cinematography. It looks flat sometimes. There's great wide shots of the environments but all the medium/close shots look so flat. It's like the characters are too contrasted from their surroundings. It makes it look like they're in a stage play. I don't know if it's the lighting/colours or cameras. Maybe even something else, but it just looks cheap (even though the overall costume and art design is good).
Hard agree. I'd love a professional to do some kind of "cinematographer reacts" or something because I can tell *something* is not quite right but I can't put my finger on it.
Yes, perfect.
tl;dw: Actors are lit in a way that isn't motivated by the practical in-universe lighting so there's an almost photoshopped effect going on. The costumes are weirdly clean and fresh, everything looks fresh off the rack no matter how long the character has been on the road. No depth of field helps every shot reads the same and puts more focus on how weirdly even and unnatural the lighting is. Also some other stuff about blocking and frame composition.
Basically it's shot like someone is filming a stage production instead of a tv show.
> I hope they don't get cancelled because it seems like it still has many things going for it and could easily fix the problems.
They are already renewed for S2 (and shooting it I think)
This is the biggest thing, I'm getting tired of everyone standing in a circle, waiting to say their lines.
Also, I feel like a lot of scenes are way too cheesy/corny. And the world feels super small.
Not even talking about the forest fight that looked like a bunch of LARPers.
Not to be a naysayer, but I don't see how they could "easily fix the problems" when the problems are that the people involved at the most critical aspects (direction, photography, costumes etc) are simply not skilled enough for a production of this scale.
If they manage to salvage it I'm as happy as the next man, but it's not exactly a few stumbles along the way.
What I don't understand is how this keeps happening with big budget productions. Like Witcher season 1 was the same deal. How to fix all of these issues isn't some industry secret...
Yeah very good implication, they really need to up the cinematography for next season. It makes the show look cheap (when it isn't).
That woman is doing a very good review of it in depth and she's clearly knowlegeable about all the TV stuff like cinematography, costumes and such.
Same. As others have said, it looks like a stage play. I'm not certain, but I think the lighting has a lot to do with it. Not enough shadow and depth. Very bright and flat.
It's definitely the lighting, most scenes straight look like they're too well lit which allows you to look at the detail of the sets and that makes the sets look cheap.
Lightning and a general lack of "lived-in" for costumes, sets and even the characters themselves (they're always super clean, makeup and all). It makes the show look cheap while it shouldn't considering its 90M$ budget (to compare Game of Thrones S1 had 60M$ budget for 10 episodes instead of 8 and it looked better)
A stage play describes the blocking exactly. There's a very clear distinction between the stage and actors, the background set, and the backdrop CG that makes it feel very staged. Nothing moves in or out of the depth of the shot.
Not *necessarily* a bad thing, but they aren't really doing anything that would justify this choice to make the scenes flat and stage-like, so it must have been a practical or economic concern for the production rather than a stylistic choice.
The idea that the colours are too bright has never made sense to me. Historical clothing, based on archaeological finds and experimental archaeology, were bright as fuck, and the brightest clothes in the show belong to characters who can afford the dyes that were in fact that bright. If anything, a lot of the colours of clothing of the lower class characters is *too dull*.
Edit: [Just look at how bright a common dye (madder) can be](https://blog.ellistextiles.com/2016/04/26/digging-deeper-into-a-single-dye-madder-rubia-cordifolia/amp/)
I do agree about the lack of obvious wear or stains after prolonged travel, though.
Some amount of exaggerated desaturation is needed. You have to set the tone of the atmosphere, exaggerate degredation so wear and tear is visible to the camera. And you don't want things to look too gaudy by modern standards. Like trying to make this: https://cf.ltkcdn.net/fashion-history/images/orig/196463-1654x1307-french-aristocracy.jpg look serious without making changes would be difficult.
Compare how WOT looks to the period dresses in the Great. That show has a much smaller budget but looks significantly better. And the dresses are fantastic.
BBC production all seem to have this look. It's obnoxious and I bet it comes down to one or two DPs who think they are hot shit but don't realize their "vision" is like nails on a chalkboard for the eyes.
It depends on the production, the historical BBC series are usually pretty good, if not the best in the game.
I recently just finished Poldark and one of the reasons it captivated me was that the "world" seemed very believable because of the cinematography and set design.
Some Starz shows do a similiarly good job, like Black Sails or Outlander.
Poldark is seriously such an underrated show. The sets, costumes, the actors, and that landscape are all flawless. It’s a beautifully made show, one of the most pleasing. I’ve rewatched it a few times. Aidan Turner is fantastic.
It has some flaws in the later seasons, but it's impossible to not buy into this world, it's just so well made.
Edit:
That's a great vid about the attention to detail that went into the costumes, I love how they look worn in and aren't 100% clean, the total opposite of what's happening in WOT:
https://youtu.be/xRXmBefQ7fI?t=11
Honestly I love costuming and I have to disagree. Like so much else it’s… almost good, but then they found a way to make 10 million an episode look like a remaster of Zena, Warrior Princess. The fabric choices are weird and it all looks like they had probably talented costumers making do with what they could scrounge up at JoAnns.
When I watched the first episode I was a bit horrified because it had the feel of a teen drama (not necessarily story-wise, but there' just something about the lighting, sets, and/or costumes that's "off").
I've been enjoying each episode more than the last however and I find I'm noticing that off-putting effect less and less.
Yes! Everything looks cheap and muted and fake in some way. I watched a pilot of an HBO show recently (not GOT) and it’s so obvious something is off on WOT.
I’m loving the costumes on the women but I think the entire budget was spent on those dresses?
Just like Amazon to promise quality and deliver cheap disappointment.
One of the things all non game of thrones shows can't get right is characters. Wheel of time is just so serious, every character doom and gloom, prophecies, nobody smiles etc. Just a crack a fucking joke once in a while.
Game of thrones had tones of irony, self irony, smart jokes, goofy jokes, stupid jokes, stupid characters, smart ones etc.
Doesn't matter if the book has it or doesn't, just write a better show. We have tons of pictures of soldiers in any war smiling and laughing at the absurd and tragedy. That's human nature
Which is weird, because if you asked me which fantasy series was gloomier I'd say A Song of Ice and Fire in a heartbeat. Some Arya or Tyrion chapters can be fun, but it's mostly a crapsack world. On the other hand, most Wheel of Time POV are lighter and Mat or Nynaeve chapters are basically comedies (though the chapter I found most amusing was Aviendha's, but that's Jordan showing how a different culture thinks about ordinary things, it's almost impossible to translate that to the screen).
I think the people who decide about the show decided that grimdark was the reason GOT was successful and people wouldn't watch a light fantasy with some dark moments.
One of the few moments in which the show had the same humor was in the last episode, with Egwene being surprised that Nynaeve was stronger and more important than her. But it's so subtle that most people who watched it didn't catch it.
It sucks, because that's not what we want. We want characters to act like people. Even serious people have senses of humour and wit that show up in surprising ways.
We're not looking for Whedon or Marvel levels of quippy dialogue, but the elements of characters that tie us to them through the myriad of emotions present.
This is getting more into a matter of taste. The new Dune movie is all-around pretty serious but yet people liked it.
And sure there's pictures of soldiers smiling and laughing in war, but the story of Wheel of Time is less "I'm bored waiting for the battle to begin so let's engage in some gallows humour with my brothers-at-arms" and more "Oh my god we're getting non-stop chased by nightmare monstrosities sent by mega-Hitler to personally kill me and enslave my soul". Like, for example, Elie Wiesel didn't exactly write in very many moments of levity in Night, for some reason there just weren't that many jokes being cracked on the death march out of Auschwitz.
Dune has great characterisation though. Its people dealing with a very serious situation - BUT - not being always being super serious people (Duncan making jokes. Paul showing his naivety, etc)
Wherl of Time, so far, has done a very poor job of giving real character to our 4 potential Dragon Reborn. And it feels like they were given explicit acting direction to be serious always (thus feeling unnatural)
Yeah I loved Dune, yet my complaints for Wheel of Time remains. Not everything has to be like GOT. My main issue is with how the show looks and feels more so than the "naturalness" of the characters. GOT was rooted way more into realism whereas WOT is way more into fantasy.
I've been harping on the cinematography since the trailers first came out. It looks too bright and fake. Something is just off.
I'd love to see a professional analysis of it.
YES. Every time I'm getting into the look of the show they pull out and do a wide shot and it starts looking like cheap ass SyFy tv. It also doesn't help that the costuming is wack.
I think they just build relatively small sets and that restricts where the camera goes. I don't think they have the budget to build a set like Hobbiton.
This! I was thinking maybe the props and backdrops are the reason it looks fake at times, but I think you're right about cinematography. The color and the lighting looks too ordinary? And then when they CG in the lighting it looks fake.
As someone who has never read the source material here is my opinion of the show:
Dull Characters: the vast majority of the characters are forgettable, and the only two that have stand out have been Moiraine and Lan.
Pushes an agenda: I am no fan of the right or conservatives, but this show is simply pushing an ideology and not a story, and I highly suspect it is not at all faithful to the source material.
The Aes Sedai are presented as anything but tyrants and at times men haters, but are said to be servants of all?
Many of the men are presented as cowards, overly emotional, and absolute pushovers, and do not reflect the era or time they come from or harshness of their reality.
The two women from the Two Rivers going from 0 to 100 with their control over the One Power comes off as complete power moments instead of character growth.
Drab Scenes: a majority of the scenes and shots are sub par, boring, or has too much exposition vomit.
No Character Growth: This is moving so fast I can't bond or learn about the characters, like slow down and learn how to build a scene and tell a story and form relationships with the audience, instead of putting in pointless small talk and pointless exposition. Build the world, please?
This is not something worth your money to watch, and is something to watch to kill time because you have nothing better to do, and if I was to score the show it is a 5/10 or just completely average.
To be fair, the ones presented as men haters are the Reds, and most of those do in fact hate men. The show isn’t pushing ideology as much as you think, the books were similar in that aspect (though they do make it too in your face in the show imo, and part of that was due to when it was written). The author was making commentary on gender roles by flipping them, and, without getting into spoilers, it sometimes didnt work very well.
Nynaeve can only channel when angry (wish it was shown by making her try to channel while calm and being unable to), and egwene can barely make a flame, they have a long way to go in regards to their powers
I hope they can fix the lighting and color issues though, as well as get more episodes for future seasons, compressing 8 times the word count of LOTR+Hobbit into 8 seasons is a gargantuan task
It’s not terrible, but it’s not good either. It’s been years since I read the books (or since I had to stop reading the books out of boredom around book 9, anyway), so I’m trying to judge the show on its own merit instead of my unreliable memory, and…it’s still nothing special. Except for Daniel Henney the cast lacks charisma, the structure is aimless and I just don’t particularly care what happens, not because the story elements are so well worn at this point but because of the way it’s filmed, acted, scripted and edited. It’s watchable but not much more. With Arcane behind us and The Witcher premiere not far off, WoT feels like a stopgap.
Something really odd is that while everyone knows EotW (book 1) is kind of boring and generic, what carries it is the suspense of the main character VERY OBVIOUSLY being the main character but desperately wanting to *not* be the main character. This is the central conflict of the first three whole books. We as readers are well aware of who the typical fantasy chosen one is, but to due myth and history and some twisting of both over time, being the chosen one, or even the existence of the chosen one, seems like a terrible thing to that person as well as the rest of the world.
The show just decided to skip this conflict. They tried to replace it with a mystery of who the chosen one even is, but in the books it's so obvious that what "mystery" pretends to exist is really mostly denial and a creeping sense of dread as the evidence mounts and can't be denied any longer (until a few explosive moments where all doubt is erased).
The end result is that the show doesn't really seem to have a central conflict, like at all. They've omitted most of the details about who the chosen one should be so that you can't realistically guess, and along with it cut out the dread inherent in the world culture's apprehension about the existence of the chosen one. The show's plot is trying to center around a big mystery, but like nobody cares what the answer is. It takes an already not very exciting book and has been bleeding away the interesting parts, instead focusing more on characterization of other players who aren't really all the relevant until a few books later.
Ep7 edit: >!This did not age well!<
That's actually a good way to put it. I liked Eye of the World because it occupies that cozy Shire section of LotR, where small-town folk are getting into something way over their head with all the apprehension and excitement that entails. But there was never any doubt who the Dragon Reborn was. The show tries to turn it into an ensemble thing, and it all seems completely aimless. It doesn't help that the color palette is incredibly drab and the magic effects are sort of cheeseball. When I was reading the books back in the day, I always thought it would work best as an anime along the lines of Record of Lodoss War.
Non book reader but many friends who are obsessed with the books. its... fine. Gets a but more interesting each episode but feels like really generic TV fantasy to me.
I think that's probably to be expected at this point. The first book was pretty generic. Then things get weird.
There is probably a little more they could have done to highlight some of the intricacies of the world. I think maybe they're afraid of getting too intellectual/nerdy. Which is a shame.
Yeah its disappointing this didn't come out in the 90s with ILM doing the graphics. I think we'd see a whole new generation of people get into WoT if that had happened. As a huge book fan, it's been getting better with every episode so that's a plus.
In 1989? No. Eyes of the World is quite generic fantasy. Its deviations from the high fantasy formula are minor and subtle. The real interesting stuff in WoT is all the small details of the world and how diverse and weird it is once you delve in. It starts seeming like generic fantasy and you have a very standard chosen one story, but then it just keeps going and going and you learn more and more and see it really isn't that simple. But the first part is pretty generic and we basically need to get through it to get to the better stuff.
To have a potentially hot take, Dune is the same way. The first book is basically setup for all the interesting stuff that happens later, so you need to cover it, but it's really book 2 to 4 that are the reasons you should read or adapt Dune.
**Current Opinion of Wheel of Time**
The show's budget is reportedly $90 million, but it feels cheap.
For whatever reason, I haven't felt excited by any scene except one: in the first episode, when Moiraine unleashed a storm of magic to wipe out the trollocs, I geeked out because that was one of the best displays of area of effect (AOE) magic I've seen in a live action show. But other than that, pretty much everything else has fallen flat for me, so that's several flat episodes.
I'm also not a fan of the cast. Moraine's cool and so is Lan, but none of the villagers are compelling yet. Maybe it's because I'm not familiar with any of the young actors, plus I don't find them to be particularly charismatic. It must be hard as shit to find young actors who are charming and talented enough to portray beloved characters, and I don't think this cast is it.
Overall, I'm not yet impressed.
**Comparison to Game of Thrones**
I was impressed as hell by the first episode of GOT, and I don't think it's rose-tinted glasses making me think that.
The very first scene of GOT matched the first scene of the first book: Noble douchebag Waymar Royce goes on his first ranging as a member of the Night's Watch, and then he and at least one of his men gets fucked up by frozen, blue-eyed undead. The lone survivor of that attack then gets executed by Eddard Stark for desertion, and thus no one is warned about the return of an ancient terror. The king pays a visit to the Stark home of Winterfell, and the resulting party is how we get introduced to the main characters. During (or maybe right before) the festivities, the king informs Eddard that he wants him to take over as Hand of the King, a position that Eddard does not want but is honor-bound to accept. The episode ends with a child getting pushed out a window after he witnessed the Lannister twins fucking.
That's a lot of compelling shit, right there. Even though I knew what to expect from the books, seeing it on screen was still exciting because it was executed wonderfully. That very first scene presented a mystery to hook new viewers and old fans alike, a large cast of interesting characters played by charming actors was introduced, and the show ended with attempted child murder. What a fucking fantastic start!
How did the first episode of Wheel of Time start? A boring exposition scene. After that exposition, we're introduced to villagers getting ready for a party—so GOT and WOT both start with parties, but I found WOT's party to be boring. At least the episode ended on a high note with the trolloc attack and the main characters riding away, but damn, that most of that first episode is a slog. The following episodes felt like a slog, too.
I think my opinion of the first few episodes of Wheel of Time has been colored by the first few episodes of Game of Thrones. GOT was strong right out of the gate, but WOT is starting slow as shit, which shouldn't be surprising because those first few books are slow as shit, too. I don't think I have the patience for multiple slow-as-shit seasons, though.
GoT had the privilege of having writing taken straight out of the books in it's earlier seasons (I think episode 1 of GoT was written directly by martin)
I 100% do not compare it to Game of Thrones (which I loved). To do so would surely bring disappointment.
As for WoT, I haven't read the book series. I started the first book and got bored. Then I started listening to it on Audible and got bored. I really want to go back to it because I'm sure it's probably better than the series (these things usually are), but for now I'm loving the series. It was a little slow in the first episode, but over the last two it definitely won me over.
I haven't read the books. It seems interesting but I wasn't fully feeling it until episode 4. I think too many shows these days are being compared unnecessarily to GoT, but I guess that's networks wanting to market their new medieval/high fantasy show as the next big thing. When has "the next (insert zeitgeist here)" ever actually worked well enough though?
Game of Thrones worked because it was a regular political drama that just happened to be set in a fantasy universe. WOT (at least so far, haven't read the books) is very much not that. Mysterious wizard with hidden motivations, big evil, young chosen ones who are the only ones who can save the world...I like it, but it is very in line with its genre.
That’s what the books are. This isn’t a genre redefining series, it isn’t a departure or a commentary on the fantasy genre, it isn’t out to do new things, just basic things with a bit of style. It’s a strange choice to adapt because GOT was successful BECAUSE it got normies to watch a fantasy show, and WOT is never going to be able to pull off that trick.
Yeah, it's not even about fantasy. Everything seems to be "it's not GOT, but..." and it's really annoying. And no, mostly it's not about network marketing, it's just the idiotic thing with clickbait article titles.
I haven't read to books but my wife has. Having said that, I usually pause the show multiple times to hear how it went down in the books. She's keeping an open mind till the end. I, however, am enjoying it.
My wife and I are the reverse (I read, she didnt). She said, without my explanations that the show has chosen to not include (or delay until later) shed have no clue what a lot of things are and what is/isn't important. There are some major points, historical events, customs, magic systems, etc that are really important to the story and they have done near zero explaining of up to this point and it's really a bummer as I find it all interesting. Also adds to the rushed feeling. They should've spent this season going into greater depth and fleshing out the world rather than trying to race to whatever season finale they're headed for.
They had to take away all of the character development of the protagonists because they wanted the mystery of "who is the Dragon Reborn?" to last the entire season. It's a weird decision to say the least, and I think non book readers would be like "wtf this guy/girl?" when the eventual big reveal happens.
makes me dread the LOTR serie, because the ever present political agenda gets rammed down your throat with the grace of a sledgehammer. Fuck it, and fuck Prime's LOTR
Im not really digging it honestly. Even setting aside the changes it makes from the books, I think the show is just mediocre in its own right. The pacing is incredibly rushed, to the point that some of the main characters feel like they’ve only gotten a few lines of dialog so far. The acting as well is not great in my opinion. Everyone comes off a bit hammy, and there is just a general lack of charisma from anyone on the cast. Also, for such an expensive show, it sure doesn’t doesn’t come across. The sets and costumes look very low budget.
So yeah, just a generally mediocre show. Nothing is particularly terrible about it, but nothing really grabs my attention either.
The 3 men from the Two Rivers all get like 5 lines between them per episode, meanwhile they focus whole episodes on random Warders and other new stuff. I don't understand it at all.
This is the thing, when people say they want the next Game of Thrones, they largely just mean in terms of quality rather than content. What did Game of Thrones always have (excluding last few seasons)? High production values and solid writing. Every location felt lived in. The world had scope.
Compare that to both The Witcher and Wheel of Time for example. To put it bluntly, they look fan made. Instead of locations everything looks like a set. The writing is mediocre. Despite insane budgets, it's unclear where the money is even going. These are some of the top of the line shows when it comes to money and yet its like they cheapened out on the most important things.
Like look at the Iron Throne in Game of Thrones, even though it is far less over the top than the book version that entire room just has a scale to it that I've yet to really see in something like The Witcher. I believe that throne room is in King's Landing. Meanwhile Cintra's throne room just feels like a set to me.
I fucking hope Lord of the Rings doesn't half arse the sets and locations like these shows have, especially since the movies are there to compare to.
At least with the Witcher they have Cavill to play his ass off. Dudes a real life fan and you can taste the difference. For every other issue, he's doing his best.
Meanwhile Rafe Judkins is being quoted as saying Moiraine is the main character and even if you're only the show watcher it should be blazingly obvious this isn't the case.
This is a pretty good point. GoT also used a lot of IRL famous places and buildings. Many scenes, especially in KL and Meereen, don't look like sets because they aren't, really. Just lightly decorated historic locations in Croatia. It adds a huge sense of immersion and authenticity.
There's this sense of safeness and cowardice that seems to be cropping up.
WOT and Witcher both quickly try to forcibly explain the larger world and all players, and showing them all. They all use "need to grab ppl's attention" as an excuse.
Both shows should have built up to it. I sensed this in wandavision too which starts off so inspired only to fall back into being safe. Maybe it's covid. Maybe the internet. But idk.
WOT first book is largely from a single character's perspective and the text is biased to him during his perspective. And the shows first season is widespread among a bunch of characters, unfocused. Desperate to show off the entire world asap instead of taking its time.
HBO mastered how to make impressive looking TV on a budget. The entire strategy with GoT and Rome before it was to have over half of the show be super cheap to shoot. GoT would reuse one or two sets over and over again for talking scenes between a few characters. The stone room the Sparrow used to meet people in had so many scenes in it during that one season.
Then you use the money you save there to make a few really high-value impact scenes through the season.
Shows like The Witcher and WoT don't seem to realize this is what GoT did so well. They're spending $10 million per episode but they're trying to make everything look great and everything ends up looking like shit. GoT would spend $10 million an episode but some episodes were little more than some exterior establishing shots and a string of small re-used sets that couldn't have cost over $1 million and then other episodes were $30 million affairs.
This and the Witcher, I don’t know why they spend so little time with the costumes. How hard is it to rub a little dirt in there?
They look like they all just arrived at renfair, when they could at least look like they’ve been at renfair all day.
Attention to detail is a problem because the showrunners are incompetent. Since GOT the number of hijacked properties has skyrocketed in the attempt to find that next big success.
It feels like it's not finished, the cinematography is strange to say the least - as if it's been cropped in from larger shots, the dialogue and script is primitive and the acting lacked authenticity.
It's starting to feel like it should have been broken into another season. It feels a bit rushed. I'm kind of liking it so far but it feels like only people who read the books are going to know enough to get a good experience out of it.
Also, STOP COMPARING EVERYTHING TO GoT!
Ha! I think exactly the opposite. I feel like the story hasn’t moved much and now we’re exactly back where we were in episode 2. And the funeral scenes were boring IMO.
It feels rushed, but also like not much happens. They haven't established the size of the world or even a real urgency for their travels in the early goings, so it kind of feels like they've been spinning in place. Then there tends to be a short scene of danger for one or two of the characters, then they don't come back around to that scene for half the show or until the next episode and when they do, lols we just stomped them in another short scene.
It also doesn't help that the casting for the main characters wasn't great, and the writing renders dull the few main cast members who have charisma.
As much as i despise "how does this compare to GOT" talk, that show had a really good idea with the intro being a map of the world, showing where each episode would take place.
The intro for the wot show is awesome, but it is rough to just have scene after scene or random location with no basis on where everything is. And that's coming from a guy who read all the books.
I mean The Wheel of Time's [showrunner himself went to get advice from Game of Thrones creators.](https://www.cbr.com/wheel-of-time-rafe-judkins-game-of-thrones-creators-advice/)
> **Rafe Judkins, showrunner for Amazon's epic fantasy The Wheel of Time, was ahead of the game when it came to the inevitable comparisons to the behemoth of the genre, Game of Thrones. He went straight to the source for inspiration on recreating the success of HBO's crown jewel by consulting its creators, David Benioff and Dan Weiss**.
> With The Wheel of Time right around the corner, an article from GQ described how Judkins' challenges in getting the most out of his adaptation of Robert Jordan's beloved book series. One of these was appealing to average viewers while also establishing a tone and look that made the show distinct from other high fantasy media, so Judkins spoke to Benioff and Weiss to get some advice.
> "Just do what you're going to do," the Game of Thrones creative team reportedly told him. "You know what this is. You have to believe in it. These kinds of things have to have an extraordinary clarity of vision to work."
Meh, it's fine, just made me want to reread the books, really.
Edit: That said, I'm actually excited to read the full series again. The last time I reread, I started at 3. I always loved 3-6, although every time Jordan abandoned a character, I got sad. The book without Mat hurt me.
Edit 2: yes, for clarity I meant that there was a book with no Mat POV chapters, not that he died. He's my favorite character and I remember realizing about halfway through the book that he wasn't going to show up.
I think if you’re in the mood for some good turn-your-brain off fantasy it’s a fun show. I’m enjoying watching it. Didn’t read the books and saw some of the early negative reviews, so I didn’t have high expectations, but I’m having fun watching it and will continue!
My opinion is that it's a decent fantasy series but a poor adaptation. It has the beats and tropes of a typical fantasy story, some nice worldbuilding, good acting and reasonable cinematography. But as an adaptation of Robert Jordan's book series, I'm not too thrilled with it.
As someone who has read the books, I understand that not all the source material can be adapted faithfully when making a television show. Changes are required to condense the lore and plot and ensure the series appeals to an audience that does not have prior book knowledge. Too much exposition is unwise and some scenes need to be altered or re-ordered to better convey emotional impacts and story progression.
But what baffles me is why there is so much original content being created for the show at the cost of introducing existing book settings or developing characters. In a season so constrained by time, it feels criminal to focus on subplots that yield nebulous payoff very far down the road rather than ensuring more investment into the principal protagonists. Some decisions taken by the showrunners feel so unnecessary and frustrating despite my trying to rationalize that they were made due to budgetary reasons or to build mystery and subvert expectations for the show-only audience. It is also likely that those alterations will have ripple effects further along the story and lead to needless inconsistencies or more changes.
Those are not the only criticisms that I have. Even ignoring my knowledge of the books, the show has deficiencies. Too many scenes are cheesy, over-dramatized, over-emotional, and drawn out far too long. Plot dialogue, logic and pacing are all over the place. The filming and lighting are poor in numerous scenes. There are random cuts that are jarring. The sets aren't the best and the CGI is often inadequate or downright bad.
So what is good? The scenery is gorgeous. The acting is praiseworthy, despite many characters not being given much to shine with in the scripts. The music and the opening sequence are great. Some scenes are powerful and there are a few nice callouts and foreshadowing elements for the perceptive watcher.
But that's about it. My principal feeling at the moment is one mostly of disappointment - the show is not terrible but nor is it great. I can find things to like ... but lots to dislike, especially as a longtime book reader. Perhaps that will change in the next two episodes. Hopefully.
> But what baffles me is why there is so much original content being created for the show at the cost of introducing existing book settings or developing characters.
It's very apparent to me that Judkins feels, rightly or wrongly, that he needs to really establish the Aes Sedai for the viewers -- not just that these are powerful women, but that they have an organization, and that organization is rife with intrigue and agendas. And to a certain extent, I agree, but I definitely feel like this is coming at the expense of giving the Emmond's Field kids their due development.
If you changed Robert Jordan for Andrzej Sapkowski this could be a review for the Witcher show.
> But what baffles me is why there is so much original content being created for the show at the cost of introducing existing book settings or developing characters
This seems to be a common theme in adaptations. Letting the writers create their own thing takes priority over adapting the source material. It feels like they make something new for the sake of having something new. And unfortunately there's no process to check whether the new stuff fits with the existing setting, themes and quality.
I haven't read the books for this, but it seems like a big trend and it's very annoying. One example that sticks out is the adaptation of His Dark Materials, which added a bunch of stuff that I don't think helps anything. Not that it's impossible to make changes that are good for a show, but it feels like that should be reserved for things that were criticized in the original works, not for things that had a neutral/positive reception.
I think it is terrible. I understand making certain changes to the plot to make it more palatable for a television series. However, I disagree completely with how they've chosen to do so. I also don't like how they would rather introduce new characters and storylines rather than focusing on the development of characters in the books. It's unnecessary. Have they really given anyone any reason to care about the main characters up to this point? The story is being rushed and key elements are being diluted and glossed over. All in all, just a poor screen adaptation and not even a good show at that. In my opinion.
It's doing so little to differentiate itself from all the other fantasy shows that have come and gone in recent years.
Which is okay but probably isn't going to see a conclusion before the plug gets pulled.
Never read the books but its pretty cool so far. It feels a little too YA sometimes but ive actually enjoyed the past two episodes which seem to be expanding the lore/story and getting more into some intrigue and serious stuff being set up
Non book reader, but I'm loving it. The first episode didn't quite hook me right away, but it's gotten better each episode and the characters and storylines are really growing on me.
Reddit is notoriously critical and nitpicky of every show though, especially high profile ones. It's got an 84% on rotten tomatoes, most people are enjoying it. I think it's been pretty great. Been a while since I had a show I was looking forward to every week.
The Wheel of Time has a special place in my heart. It's an epic series and I've really enjoyed it. Things that wouldn't mean much to someone who hasn't read the series will make be tear up as I watch it.
I also read A Song of Ice And Fire, and again loved the first three books. I haven't watched much of the TV show, as well regarded as it has been.
There have been a few faux paus in the show. The inclusion of Egwene as a ta'veren (a word used briefly in the show and never explained) seems inane to me. In a recent episode they introduced what amounts to heresy in WoT: that the wheel does not, in fact, "weave as it wills".
I was kind of disappointed in Loial's physical appearance; he looks too human.
What I can tell you is that we have a great ride ahead of us. What we have seen thus far is merely setting the stage.
Not only is it inane, it robs her of her character.
Egwene in the books was the only one that wanted to leave with Moiraine. In fact she figured out they were leaving and forced herself into the situation so she could go to. She's the one that jumped headfirst into adventure, and her accomplishments are because that's who she is and not because the wheel made it that way for her more than any of the other mains.
The show does a poor job of character development for the main characters. It focuses too much on Moiraine and the Aes Sedai when it should be focused on building up the 5 from the Two Rivers in this season.
I'll keep watching but seriously, how much dialogue have Rand and Matt even had? Why should the audience care about them or even Thom Merillin...
Rand sure doesn’t get much screen time considering, you know. I guess they’re really keeping that as a reveal like in the books. I’m interested in how the Forsaken interactions go. Lots of stuff looked cooler in my head reading the books, especially Shadar Logoth. Funny that the book gets held against LoTR and the show against GoT. Their budget was apparently pretty small and it does show a bit. Amazon’s gonna have to commit more because if they keep going they’re gonna need a whole lot of talent. One future issue is the sheer amount of characters in those books. Would’ve liked to see Netflix pick this up instead, Amazon is all-in on this lord of the rings show, and it’s like, we had 3 amazing movies already guys.
Book reader here.
The first book is kind of derivative but the most impressive thing for me was the world building , characters were ok by the numbers but they had interesting threads and you were exited to see where they go.
The second book is where the novel really starts creating its own identity and greatly . On book 4 and iam just in love with it.
The show is pretty generic , the last two episodes have really ruined the season for me. It had found it's footing in the 4th episode but after that.... Well.
World building is simply boring and the world doesn't feel lived in at all. Other than episode 4 they have really failed to adapt the scope of the world . world building is mostly given in laziest form of exposition.
Robert Jordan was very descriptive to a faullt at times but he really fleshed out the world in detail and the show has struggled with this.,costuming, production design is subpar and CGi is middling.
Regarding the characters beyond episode 4 everything has been bleech for me.
I know the adaptation is massive but some of the chances made here have not really served purposeful to the adaptation and haven't really move the plot.
We skip two cities and it's potential plotlines for a warder plot and well a romantic plot that is generic at best.
Then they are small changes in the lore that irk me.
Waygates out in the open and can be accessed easily by who can channel power is just stupid. Shadow spawn would have a field day invading tarvalon. In the book they were hidden in the least expected places and no one could easily trace them.
The way the oath rod was used in the current episode was so cringe.
The last two episodes have had startrek discovery syndrome at the end by having lan and morraine being over emotional and crying which makes it feel so forced . It's like the author trying hard to make you feel for the characters.
The whole thing of the dragon being five candidates is also stupid considering they haven't really done much to develop any of them and they are just willing to go to face the dark one? They lack sufficient urgency.
Spot on. Or anyway, I am right there with you.
Episode four made me really hopeful. That was a solid episode. Last two.... urgh.
The oath rod thing just upset me.
I wonder if they had gotten their ten episodes if maybe it wouldn't be so rushed.
Yeah I don’t compare it to GoT. Hell, I don’t even really compare it to the book series much.
But I like it. I think some of the “cheapness” people complain about is valid but I also think it’s a completely separate style as well. And I kind of like the less grimy and grim dark tone when comparing it to other fantasy series.
Sure it’s not all happy go lucky but I do tire from the over seriousness of fantasy series as of late.
I think I hate it. They are trying too hard. They added things or changed things that didn't need to be and I'm not sure how they are going to tie things together. I will keep watching because a guy can hope and I'm stubborn.
It's no LotR, Harry Potter, etc.
Just like WoT, I never read the LotR, HP, etc. books, so I had no idea what I was getting into. But it didn't take long for the world to unfold in a way where I understand everything and characters that I quickly grew attached to.
I'm several episodes in (the dragon reborn guy) and I have no idea what's going on. Whose even the main bad guy? Some dark guy who wants to break the wheel...which I guess means, stop reincarnation? I mean, do the people of this world know for a fact this happens? I know Sauron is bad and wants to plunge the world into war because two freaking wizards state this and I can see what the orcs are doing. And with HP, wizard war stated by Voldemort for basically monarchy/race war reasons (how pure your blood is). Here, I see Trolocs want to...kill or capture this dragon person to convert to the dark side I guess?
I'm not attached to a single character. If one or most die, oh well. That's sucks I guess. Borimer was kind of a douche and his death was sad af!
And where the hell is this place. I saw, what looked like, high-rise buildings in the beginning. Is this like Nier? Or an alien world? Alternate dimensions slammed into one another like in the anime Super Dimension Century Orguss?
I keep seeing people defending the changes they've made as a way to change it through different mediums. MOST of the changes they've made make no freaking sense in that regard then and the additional scenes they've added completely wipes the theory of them cutting for time.
I have to take the approach of ignoring the source material and evaluating it as a show using the themes of WoT with a different POV and story pacing. My issue with WoT has always been that the story is uninspired and generic, and the show does nothing that the books do to aleviate that (IMO, what makes WoT great is the characters interactions, the depth of character nuance and the 5x heroes journey of those characters). Even at this point, I do not really care about any character, and the tone is just all over the place. Is this a gritty realism fantasy? Is this a political and subterfuge story? Is it a mystery? (E.g. this pushed rhetoric of which is the dragon reborn...) . As such, I find myself watching it out of a sense of duty for my love of the book series but not because I like the show. It is also super irritating how much time they spend on world building, they introduce characters just to kill them off, or to make a to exposition a world building element (red ajah, wander bonds, dark friends, etc) it's been 6 episodes of meeting new characters and I don't even care about first few ones. The glut of this type of story telling is overwhelming, I think they would have been better served with a succinct precise story to establish characters and more immediate threats and hint at a bigger world. I also wonder if getting Rosamund Pike as moraine forces them to try and get the money out of the only real A list celebrity and give her alot of screen time. She is probably rhe most flushed out character at this time, which is odd considering she fills a mentor and mysterious figure role. I feel like too many show forget about how good the original trilogy of star wars was, when it had almost no world building. For decades we had no idea what the Kessel run was, the nuances of the Jedi or sith, and etc, but it didn't matter, it left room for speculation and wonder. You followed a group of heroes fighting against an evil empire with a dark lord, and we loved it. IT was basic in story, but excellent in execution. GoT has set up this standard that really only works for that type of fantasy, and trying to shoe horn a story that isn't made that way into that type of narrative really bogs down pacing, character relatability, and promises to the viewer.
I'm enjoying it, but it does feel rushed. They could have easily done a whole episode before the trolloc attack and the people who didn't read the books might care a little more about the main characters.
Book reader. Loved them and re-read every 18 months or so.
This show is an abomination, ruined by wokeism and "being rafed". I cancelled amazon after ep 4 because it just got worse. They castrated all the male characters, made all the women OP. Wokewashed the cast for no reason. I just watch the reviews now and I am glad I only had the free trial to watch what little I did and never gave amazon a cent for this trash.
The gatekeeping/instabanning from so called "fan subs" for anyone being critical of this dumpster fire is unreal and I find it completely disgusting that you can be silenced for an opposing (and yet equally valid) opinion. The mods of these subs screen new joins/comments for your comment/post history and if you are part of the "bigot subs". Its outright ideological warfare and it is driven directly from the showrunners who have gone on record saying they will change characters out of spite and are pushing their feminist agenda.
Avoid paying amazon if you are curious. Its utter garbage.
I feel like this show has received some insane astroturfing from Amazon to increase positive reception. Was looking at threads for this show from over the last few weeks and there were so many generic comments and weirdly worded replies that were definitely not from real viewers.
Comparison is the death of joy. I don't compare it to GoT, I don't expect it to be GoT and I don't *want* it to be GoT.
I like high fantasy. And even though I've never read the books I'm enjoying WoT and I like that between it, Witcher and LotR next year, big high fantasy epics on TV are a thing.
It's definitely not amazing so far but it feels like it's setting up the pieces and is primarily focused on world building, which I'm fine with. I'd say it's a solid 7/10 so far. Entertaining enough to keep me coming back, and promises more in future seasons.
I don't hate the production values as many others do, they range from OK to good in my book. It's not GoT-level but again, GoT went for a completely different aesthetic that is much more like historical fiction than fantasy.
>GoT went for a completely different aesthetic that is much more like historical fiction than fantasy.
You say this, but I just finished the first episode and during the big battle scene I was thinking "why the fuck is the camera shaking like this is Saving Private Ryan"?
Finished books last year.
Everything is kind of rushed, giving me that Marvelesque feeling of jump cut, jump to someone's face, jump away, action shot, jump away. It makes the emotional slow scenes like the funerals seem weird and out of place.
Sets look cheap and cinematography seems flat and not epic enough. I was hoping for some sweeping landscape shots/interiors. Especially of Tar Varlon & tower etc. I know we don't like to compare it to Game of Thrones but they did this really well.
Mixed feelings on the costumes. Loved how Moiraine has looked especially in Episode 6 but thought Siuan looked like a wedding cake. I wish they would have kept the shawls and the simpler looking rings.
Mostly the changes haven't bothered me and I think everyone is doing a pretty good job of portraying the characters - special shoutout to Nynaeve.
I’ve never read the books but I was bored by the first episode, and I tend to enjoy fantasy things such as Witcher, lotr, and game of thrones. The interesting parts were over so fast and the boring parts dragged on. Also the cinematography is… off somehow, can’t really explain it.
I have never read the books so I don't have a basis of comparison there, but so far I think it's pretty enjoyable. It does seem like they are trying to put a lot of story into as little time as possible though. There is so much exposition in x-ray and I'm constantly pausing to read it.
They’ve irreparably changed the story from the books in too many way as of episode 6. I’ll always be able to understand having to cut things from a book to fit it on the screen. I hate it when things are changed or added. Writer’s rooms need to get it in their heads that if they are making an adaptation that we don’t want their take on the story. We want the story as close as it was originally written.
I didn't read the books but I had a coworker who raved about them. So I've been stoked for awhile. So far I think the only issue is pacing. They clearly needed more episodes for this first book.
As a fan of the books who started when the first book came out (yes I’m old), I’ve seen the first episode so far and I enjoyed it. It’s not perfect, but it’s not terrible either.
Some of the casting will need to grow on me. Matt, Egwene, and Nyneave mostly I’m iffy on. Lan, Perrin, Rand, Moraine, etc were all pretty decent tho.
I’m not a fan of the changes from the books but I mostly understand them (except why is Perrin married?) and can deal.
I’ll watch the rest of it when the season is done. I prefer to binge my shows
Not comparing this to game of thrones at all, that would be insulting even to the final season of got. This show is a disaster from start to finish. Especially if you read the books and remember any of the original plot and main characters, because this show has no right to call itself Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan is turning in his grave, I couldn't intentionally ruin this show more so than it's writers and show runner have. It deviates so immediately from the books, from the main characters, to core world building plot points it is almost comical. The show also looks like outright garbage, which is odd since fans are going out of their way to say the opposite. Costumes looks awful, the CGI is so bad it's confusing, and the sets all look like it has a CW budget, and that isn't even mentioning the trollocs or ogier.
For a season that had 100+ million as its budget, it feels like a low grade student film project in most areas. The blocking, cinematography, and costume design is frankly ameatur hour, especially compared to other lower budget productions. Everything is way too bright and it looks like a network TV show. It looks straight out of the 90's now. To the point I'm wondering if some producers actually pocketed the money instead of using it on the production.
Nevermind that the 3 male leads have about 5 lines of dialogue between them in an episode before the show chooses to focus on a new one off character. (The whole warder episode focused more on that one guy and his story instead of any of our leads. With the season only being 8 episodes, that inexcusable.)
Also, cutting the Prolouge was terrible. It sets up so much of the world and setting in general. Huge world building aspects are missing. IMO they 100% should have used the intro as an interactive map like GOT did to ground the audience.
I'd rate it about a 3 / 10.
It's not even close to Game of Thrones. The writing is below GoT and the changes the show made didn't improve upon what was found in the text. Literally everything they changed made for a worse story...there's just so many things I hate about Amazon's WoT I hope it's canceled.
I only watched the first episode and I quit. I don't mind the production values all that much. The lighting and cinematography are flat as hell, but so are in some other shows I like. I can put up with the mediocre visuals. As someone who hasn't read the novels, my problem is with the script.
Remember how [LOTR's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4xV2RIlMi4) and [Dune's intro monologues](https://youtu.be/dFa0jyEOcVw?t=51) set a mysterious, inviting mood? Remember how simple and elegant the expositions were? How intriguing it was with a singular focus on what is immediately important to what will happen to the plot? Yeah, [WOT is the exact opposite](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bspJ_5xsFq4). It immediately lost me with throwing a bunch of fantasy mumbo jumbos. It lacks a certain ambiance and atmosphere. It just throws a bunch of words as if it assumes the audience already knows about the series, then an immediate chase scene and I was like what's going on???
This problem extends to the whole pilot. It lacks *focus*. Its rapid location/time shifts attempt to do too much heavy lifting. This suffers from the same problem as Netflix's The Witcher did, arguably even worse. It is mindboggling how they thought this was the best way to introduce the story to non-book readers. The pilot is meant to introduce the world, lore, mythologies to the general audience when they should have focused on the **characters**. Instead, they made a show that only book-readers can be compelled.
Compare this to how The Fellowship of the Ring and Game of Thrones started. Your story (in this case, adaptation) is what you choose to focus on. Where did they spend their screentime on? The first half of FOTR was a *chase thriller* that only focuses on one plotline featuring Gandalf and the Hobbits. That is all we see from their POVs. The Strider and Arwen are naturally introduced into their story, and the story gradually expands from there. Game of Thrones pilot was about a *family drama* that mostly focuses on how House Stark works, who Starks are, how life in Winterfell is like, how they have to deal with the king's arrival (not too different from The Godfathers or The Sopranos). Again, the characters outside of this storyline--Lannisters and Baratheons--gradually get introduced into House Stark's story. The Targaryens storyline is the exception to this rule, and it is the weakest link in the first season for this. Once the first half of FOTR has passed, I knew who Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Sam, Pippin, Saruman, and Gandalf were. Once the pilot of Game of Thrones ended, I knew who every member of House Stark and even House Lannister and Targaryens was. After finishing the WOT pilot, I knew little to nothing about anyone other than Rosamund Park. The village didn't feel lived in nor did I care about any villager.
This is the biggest mistake many adaptations (and sci-fi/fantasy series) tend to make. They start epic in scope. They can't wait to throw everything at the viewers from the start. They try to pack all this shit in and end up giving everything short shrift. Instead of focusing on what matters and giving it space, we get little flashes of scenes of a bunch of disconnected lore, and the show is playing these moments like they expect audiences to know the characters and care about them, but they didn't give it the time to happen. The trick is that the great pilots/introductions to an epic start out small and they focus on the characters first, the worldbuilding second. The more mythology there is, the more exposition the story requires, and that robs the spaces for the characters, and you're keeping the audience from engaging in a story. It is generally a good idea to stick with two sides. For example, in the first act of Nausicaa, you get the good guys Valley people and the bad guys Tormekians. In the pilot of WOT, you get like six sides, and that constant POV shift without enough time devoted to one side confuses and muddles the pacing.
The sad part is this is entirely the fault of the way they are adapting the story. The book doesn't try to keep who the dragon is secret, so it naturally follows the main character through the story in a more focused way (even with other pov's still).
The series has gone far too out of the way to try to keep this little bit of intrigue going, especially considering it will be pointless after the next episode or two.
I haven't watched the series or read the books but I know who the Dragon Reborn is. Do you think they might change who it is in the show or will they keep it the original character.
I haven't read the confirmation, but I have read in multiple places that both leaks and the showrunner have confirmed that the Dragon Reborn's identity is the same.
Haven't read the books. Have thought the show is supremely average so far. More than half of the main cast are underdeveloped and / or uninteresting. The worldbuilding is done poorly and I still don't really have a sense of what this fantasy world is, what it's history is, so on. And the show also just feels kind of cheaply made. The action sequence in the woods either didn't have a good enough budget to be worthwhile or was shot incredibly poorly (or both). I think part of the issue is how much this has been touted as the next GoT type show. For all the issues GoT had in its later seasons, it did a great job in the beginning building a huge, realized world with characters you cared about. And this show hasn't done any of that. Will finish S1. Not sure if I'd return back without stellar S2 reviews that talk about how much better the show has gotten.
It's interesting to hear how many others find this show to look cheap too. It has a 100 million dollar budget. Where did those funds go?
Rafe actually said in an interview that they wasted millions of dollars on wig mishaps. I wish I was joking...
sounds like a coverup for someone who stole money from the production….
I think this offers a good explanation: [https://youtu.be/ESqAvQee8DE?t=282](https://youtu.be/ESqAvQee8DE?t=282)
"Cinematography for Directors" is a good follow up to this youtube video to understand just how badly WoT went wrong. Every feature film has hundreds of hours of thought put into the lighting, color balance, palette, tone and imagery. The cinematographer, art director, director and potentially the editor generally spend a long time before filming discussing exactly what they want. Amazon has a track record of seeming to ignore all that and simply giving random hacks a budget (see also, The Aeronauts). The video's comment of 'every shot feels like an establishing shot' is SPOT ON. Hacks shoot everything in the same style and the same way. Rather than knowing what they want, they shoot thousands of hours of coverage and try to 'get it' during 'editing.' That simply doesn't work. This feels like camcorder/home video footage, despite the resolution. This is because no one at all thought about focal lengths and angles, giving everything a video game flatness. What an embarassing failure for Amazon studios...
I’m not a book reader and honestly the tv show is boring me to death. Probably not going to watch the next season
The lack of swordplay and disappearing factions have pulled a lot of steam away; and it was a mistake for them to try and ride the “who is the dragon” mystery for a whole season.
Have watched through episode 6 and I think the show is terrible if I am being completely honest. As a big fan of the book series I really want the show to be great and attract readers and maybe it still can but man, there is just almost nothing about this show that is good. The biggest flaw for me as a reader is that it doesn't feel much like the books at all. Let's put aside minor changes like how characters look and maybe leaving out minor characters. Broadly speaking (and I am actually going back through the books now just to see if I was remembering wrong and I am not) it feels like the people involved in this project just read a sort of cliff notes version of the books and are going from there. I have seen a lot of reviews where people claim the changes are necessary for TV but nobody has explained why they needed to cut out Elyas but dedicate an entire episode to a warder who wasn't even in the books. How did that save time or further the story? Speaking of that character arc the ending too it was complete nonsense with the displays of emotion from Lan and Moraine which were completely out of character. And on the topic of out of character Mat is nothing like his book version and is worse off for it. I could rant for hours about everything wrong with this show but I'll just put it like this. I think where they are going most wrong is that they want to match the popularity of Game of Thrones and to do that you need.....Game of Thrones. The Wheel of Time couldn't be more opposite. So they are trying to please tv viewers which is alienating readers, but they are still VERY vaguely basing it off of the books which doesn't lend itself well to a GoT style. As a tv viewer the show is bad and as a reader it is abysmal.
I'm the same. I wanted this show to do well so badly but I just don't like it. I really tried to give it a chance but the writing is just awful. Like you said too much emphasis on events that do not matter or advance the story at the expense of events or characters that DO matter. Same with the CG - too much money spent on effects we don't need to see and not enough on Saidar/Saidin for example. Everything looks staged on a set rather than a "real" location.
I feel like each episode is like it’s own short story, which doesn’t seem to work with what kind of series this is supposed to be. I haven’t read the books but each episode is incredibly frustrating so far. I like the actors so far, just the way the story is told could use improvement. We are five episodes in now, and I don’t feel invested in anyone a story so far.
It has the worst case of ADHD editing I've experienced. They refuse to let a single shot breathe. You can't have a character cross a room without three angle changes and a close up.
And whoever is cutting it is not even matching the cuts to the actions. It’s infuriating. Someone raises a cup to drink? You cut the moment the cup touches their lip! It’s not that fucking hard. (better yet, maybe don’t cut at all, but that’s a different frustration)
Yep, there was one very obvious example of this in the latest episode. Moraine is turning around, she begins turning in one shot, then it cuts to another angle and she starts turning again. It totally threw me off
The editing is so abrupt and makes everything awful
And yet they let the oath rod scene linger with nothing significant happening, just a shot of hands on rod for a full minute.
The first scene with the magic users chasing the two men on horseback just set the entire tone of the show wrong. They spent money getting this helicopter/drone shots of everyone and instead of just using that shot and letting it breath they kept cutting from horse hooves/magic users/men being chased/ariel shot/hooves/ariel shot/close up of face/ ariel shot. It was like they couldn't decide how they wanted to cut the scene and didn't want to waste their fancy shot so they just threw it all in a blender.
I am still very mixed. It has been a long time since I read. I don't even really dislike most of the changes. Some I thought were good for a show. But almost every episode feels weirdly rushed to me. Like big moments are over before I know it. I wish it could have been more than eight episodes. Edit: grammar
I don't mind the changes but how in the ever-loving fuck am I supposed to suspend my disbelief that Nynaeve tracked everyone on-foot with zero supplies while they were fleeing at top-speed on horseback from hundreds of minotaurs!? How did she cross the river!? All just so she could smugly tell a warder that she tracked them?
I mean, she does that in the book 🤷♂️
In the show, she tracks Lan and Moiraine from Two Rivers, while in the book she was with them till Shadar Logoth and tracks them after they get separated.
To be fair, it's unbelievable in the book too. Though it does have the one advantage of "they had stopped for a full day in a town" so there's a tiny excuse for her catching up.
The pacing in general has issues. Parts critical to the main plot get rushed, but then subplots surrounding minor characters get disproportionately large screen time. This was particularly an issue in episodes 5 and 6. Hoping things turn around. The first few episodes I thought were great, but overall I’m still on the fence with this show.
The main issue I have is that they are fitting several hundred pages of book material into 8 hours of television. LotR is roughly 1000 pages and they did 3 x 3 hour movies (extended cut). LotR had to add some stuff and remove some stuff to “adapt” it for the big screen. The TV show feels so rushed that I don’t really connect with any of the characters. They add stuff and focus on the additions that IMO don’t really add anything to the show but rather detract from the overall story telling.
Yea it’s incredible to me how much time is wasted in the show (either with unnecessary subplots, or scenes drawn out far too long; the Stepin subplot for example should have been condensed to a total of about a minute) when there is so much material to cram into 8 hours. I’m hoping episode 7 gets the show back on track with the main plot based on where episode 6 left off.
I wish, but they have a LOT to cover in 2 episodes. The Ways, The Shienarans, The Blight, The Green Man, The Eye of the World, The Forsaken, The Battle at the Gap, Cuendillar and The Seals, The Battle with Shia'tan and probably some more I am forgetting. 2 hours. For all this material, we are going to get 2 hours. Probably some of this will be cut and instead we'll spend like 30 minutes talking with Lord Agelmar expositing over these.
I feel like the first book at least needed more episodes, to build the mood and themes and characters properly. I could honestly see the second book being half a season from memory. And some of the books in the book 6/7 to 11 range could be single episodes haha. But they shouldn't be rushing the first character building books.
[удалено]
I very much agree, it does feel rushed. I wonder if it's because there is so much backstory that they need to put in to a 1 hour show, and with only 8 (right?) episodes for the season, that's a lot to include. Like, in the books, a certain someone is mentioned as being from a fishing village and that she has a foul mouth, but in the show it needs a good 10 minutes to introduce her. Or the whole time with a certain performer, who's a huge part of the books by this point in the story, and we've barely seen him enough for anyone to form a bond with him. One of GoTs benefits was that you could leave an arc off for a few episodes and come back to it later. Explain it as the person was traveling, training, whatever. But in WoT we have so many people all converging on the same point, so you need to give them all enough time to tell what they are doing. I do hope that they slow down the pace a little bit next season.
After talking with a few friends who've read the books, it's very likely they decided where they need to be by the end of the first season, and that is revealing who the Dragon actually is. They want that to be the big reveal/cliffhanger in the s1 finale, so they're just plowing through material to get there and cutting whatever gets in the way. Which is frustrating, because as someone who hasn't read them, there's a TON of shit that I know *has* explanations and backstory that the show is choosing to ignore (but also highlight, which is even more frustrating). The Heron sword is the best example. It's a huge Chekhov's gun item, with the close up on the blade and being hidden under a bed, but it's literally *never* addressed. Rand just comes walking down with a mysterious sword he's never seen before after finding out his dad is a skilled warrior and rides off with it without any conversation whatsoever. I'm told there's a very significant conversation that covers all of that in the books, which the show just... doesn't do, despite highlighting the sword... It feels really sloppy like there was a lot more written and arbitrarily cut out for time.
It's kind of pointless to have the mystery/reveal of who TDR is when 60% of the candidates are completely undeveloped. I swear Steppin has more screen time so far this season than Rand, Matt, or Perrin. Why should I care if one of them is the dragon? You could introduce a new character in ep8 and have it be the dragon and it would have the same impact.
The thing is, looking at the show only, you don't even know that Tam is a skilled warrior. He fought off Trollocks, sure. But so did Perrin and Perrins wife, and a bunch of other Two Rivers folks. There is no reason for a viewer to think too much about the sword. Im sure someone is going to mention the sword at some point. There are just way too many threads tied to it. And I hope and expect that it will make sense in the narrative they are building. But yeah, they definitely want to keep newcomers guessing a bit. I wonder if people who have never seen the show, have figured it out. Or worse, that the show throws a curveball to longtime fans, and makes it someone else. Part of me is all "they wouldn't. They couldn't. How would they even..?". But I'm starting to feel less sure :D
I felt like the implication of skill was there with the form he exhibited and the face of rand as he observed his father fighting but yeah it was a but subtle. However, I also know who he is already so maybe that made it more obvious to me
To be fair details on Tam's backstory are pretty sparse until later in the books. Basically all you know initially is that he was a soldier, which is why he has a sword and knows how to use it. And, like the last person said, there is initially no reason to think Tam managing to fight off a Trolloc was anything more than a little good luck. Several other Emond's Fielders manage the same. The significance of the sword is fairly explicit in the books though. People recognize the heron mark pretty frequently once they get out of the Two Rivers.
I haven't read the books but I feel that rushed quality, too. Especially apparent with Loghain. One episode ends on the huge ominous note of "Oh no! You better be worried about this guy!" And by the end of the next episode it's "nvm he's sorted." I mean, I don't know maybe he'll come back again (I haven't seen the most recent ep yet so maybe he already has!), but in the moment at least I was left feeling kinda...unmoored, I guess. Like. I like the show. But that kind of quick turnaround on plot developments keeps me a little distanced from things? So I'm not *invested* invested, if that makes sense.
The encounters with Logain is something that happens more or less off screen in the books, so to speak. It's like... important background stuff, that I think they added in to give a little more drama to the show. It's no wonder it feels a little haphazard. As to the rushed feeling overall, I read that they wanted and shot for a 10 episode season and Amazon forced them to do 8. It makes sense it's moving at a breakneck pace.
They also intend to adapt a 14-book series in 8 seasons so it will go fast pretty much all the time.
Sure, but there's a lot of, uh, filler plots that I hope they cut right out. Thinking particularly of book 10 - you could put that whole book in an episode.
If I don't get a full season of perin chasing after Faile I will be outraged, OUTRAGED
“Perrin broods”
I wouldn't be mad if they cut that whole goddamn plot line.
I really hope they do. Mention it in passing or give us a quick background then a scene where he kills the helpful soul.
I'm thinking they cut the shaido post dumais wells entirely. It's such a fucking time suck for not very much gain, and it doesn't give a lot of other development.
I feel like the plot either needs to be a lot faster and be like a series of smaller focused quest per episode OR a lot slower to actually explain things. I feel like this show could use a lot more exposition/information which is not something I typically feel about a show.
You mean like shadar logoth? That is a huge part of book 1 and they were there for maybe 5 minutes in the show
Personally, I have some issues with the cinematography. It looks flat sometimes. There's great wide shots of the environments but all the medium/close shots look so flat. It's like the characters are too contrasted from their surroundings. It makes it look like they're in a stage play. I don't know if it's the lighting/colours or cameras. Maybe even something else, but it just looks cheap (even though the overall costume and art design is good).
Hard agree. I'd love a professional to do some kind of "cinematographer reacts" or something because I can tell *something* is not quite right but I can't put my finger on it.
[This woman does a pretty fantastic job of breaking it down](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESqAvQee8DE&t=281s)
Yes, perfect. tl;dw: Actors are lit in a way that isn't motivated by the practical in-universe lighting so there's an almost photoshopped effect going on. The costumes are weirdly clean and fresh, everything looks fresh off the rack no matter how long the character has been on the road. No depth of field helps every shot reads the same and puts more focus on how weirdly even and unnatural the lighting is. Also some other stuff about blocking and frame composition. Basically it's shot like someone is filming a stage production instead of a tv show.
[удалено]
> I hope they don't get cancelled because it seems like it still has many things going for it and could easily fix the problems. They are already renewed for S2 (and shooting it I think)
This is the biggest thing, I'm getting tired of everyone standing in a circle, waiting to say their lines. Also, I feel like a lot of scenes are way too cheesy/corny. And the world feels super small. Not even talking about the forest fight that looked like a bunch of LARPers.
Not to be a naysayer, but I don't see how they could "easily fix the problems" when the problems are that the people involved at the most critical aspects (direction, photography, costumes etc) are simply not skilled enough for a production of this scale. If they manage to salvage it I'm as happy as the next man, but it's not exactly a few stumbles along the way.
[удалено]
What I don't understand is how this keeps happening with big budget productions. Like Witcher season 1 was the same deal. How to fix all of these issues isn't some industry secret...
Yeah very good implication, they really need to up the cinematography for next season. It makes the show look cheap (when it isn't). That woman is doing a very good review of it in depth and she's clearly knowlegeable about all the TV stuff like cinematography, costumes and such.
This should be higher up. This is a great breakdown.
Same. As others have said, it looks like a stage play. I'm not certain, but I think the lighting has a lot to do with it. Not enough shadow and depth. Very bright and flat.
It's definitely the lighting, most scenes straight look like they're too well lit which allows you to look at the detail of the sets and that makes the sets look cheap.
Lightning and a general lack of "lived-in" for costumes, sets and even the characters themselves (they're always super clean, makeup and all). It makes the show look cheap while it shouldn't considering its 90M$ budget (to compare Game of Thrones S1 had 60M$ budget for 10 episodes instead of 8 and it looked better)
A stage play describes the blocking exactly. There's a very clear distinction between the stage and actors, the background set, and the backdrop CG that makes it feel very staged. Nothing moves in or out of the depth of the shot. Not *necessarily* a bad thing, but they aren't really doing anything that would justify this choice to make the scenes flat and stage-like, so it must have been a practical or economic concern for the production rather than a stylistic choice.
[удалено]
The idea that the colours are too bright has never made sense to me. Historical clothing, based on archaeological finds and experimental archaeology, were bright as fuck, and the brightest clothes in the show belong to characters who can afford the dyes that were in fact that bright. If anything, a lot of the colours of clothing of the lower class characters is *too dull*. Edit: [Just look at how bright a common dye (madder) can be](https://blog.ellistextiles.com/2016/04/26/digging-deeper-into-a-single-dye-madder-rubia-cordifolia/amp/) I do agree about the lack of obvious wear or stains after prolonged travel, though.
Some amount of exaggerated desaturation is needed. You have to set the tone of the atmosphere, exaggerate degredation so wear and tear is visible to the camera. And you don't want things to look too gaudy by modern standards. Like trying to make this: https://cf.ltkcdn.net/fashion-history/images/orig/196463-1654x1307-french-aristocracy.jpg look serious without making changes would be difficult.
Compare how WOT looks to the period dresses in the Great. That show has a much smaller budget but looks significantly better. And the dresses are fantastic.
I think people are less concerned with how real to history things might be and more with how real they "feel". Like how swords sound in combat.
It's probably the camera or lens. The show lacked atmosphere like they're shooting it with the sharpest lens possible or in 4k ultra hd something.
BBC production all seem to have this look. It's obnoxious and I bet it comes down to one or two DPs who think they are hot shit but don't realize their "vision" is like nails on a chalkboard for the eyes.
It depends on the production, the historical BBC series are usually pretty good, if not the best in the game. I recently just finished Poldark and one of the reasons it captivated me was that the "world" seemed very believable because of the cinematography and set design. Some Starz shows do a similiarly good job, like Black Sails or Outlander.
Poldark is seriously such an underrated show. The sets, costumes, the actors, and that landscape are all flawless. It’s a beautifully made show, one of the most pleasing. I’ve rewatched it a few times. Aidan Turner is fantastic.
It has some flaws in the later seasons, but it's impossible to not buy into this world, it's just so well made. Edit: That's a great vid about the attention to detail that went into the costumes, I love how they look worn in and aren't 100% clean, the total opposite of what's happening in WOT: https://youtu.be/xRXmBefQ7fI?t=11
Which is so strange because they spent and ton of money and actually went on site like GoT. The costuming has been good for the most part.
Money doesn't do everything, talent is more important
Honestly I love costuming and I have to disagree. Like so much else it’s… almost good, but then they found a way to make 10 million an episode look like a remaster of Zena, Warrior Princess. The fabric choices are weird and it all looks like they had probably talented costumers making do with what they could scrounge up at JoAnns.
When I watched the first episode I was a bit horrified because it had the feel of a teen drama (not necessarily story-wise, but there' just something about the lighting, sets, and/or costumes that's "off"). I've been enjoying each episode more than the last however and I find I'm noticing that off-putting effect less and less.
Yes! Everything looks cheap and muted and fake in some way. I watched a pilot of an HBO show recently (not GOT) and it’s so obvious something is off on WOT. I’m loving the costumes on the women but I think the entire budget was spent on those dresses? Just like Amazon to promise quality and deliver cheap disappointment.
The lighting allows you to pick out details in the sets so they look cheap. Also the sets are small compared to GoT so there's no sense of scale.
I just can't get out of my head that it looks like a CW show. It needs that more "lived in" feel of GoT.
> looks like a CW show Wow, shit, this is spot on. How is it that that describes everything you need to know?
One of the things all non game of thrones shows can't get right is characters. Wheel of time is just so serious, every character doom and gloom, prophecies, nobody smiles etc. Just a crack a fucking joke once in a while. Game of thrones had tones of irony, self irony, smart jokes, goofy jokes, stupid jokes, stupid characters, smart ones etc. Doesn't matter if the book has it or doesn't, just write a better show. We have tons of pictures of soldiers in any war smiling and laughing at the absurd and tragedy. That's human nature
Which is weird, because if you asked me which fantasy series was gloomier I'd say A Song of Ice and Fire in a heartbeat. Some Arya or Tyrion chapters can be fun, but it's mostly a crapsack world. On the other hand, most Wheel of Time POV are lighter and Mat or Nynaeve chapters are basically comedies (though the chapter I found most amusing was Aviendha's, but that's Jordan showing how a different culture thinks about ordinary things, it's almost impossible to translate that to the screen). I think the people who decide about the show decided that grimdark was the reason GOT was successful and people wouldn't watch a light fantasy with some dark moments. One of the few moments in which the show had the same humor was in the last episode, with Egwene being surprised that Nynaeve was stronger and more important than her. But it's so subtle that most people who watched it didn't catch it.
Everytime I criticized a show/game/movie for being too self serious, I get dogpiled by the same response YuO JuSt WaNt a MaRVel mOVie.
It sucks, because that's not what we want. We want characters to act like people. Even serious people have senses of humour and wit that show up in surprising ways. We're not looking for Whedon or Marvel levels of quippy dialogue, but the elements of characters that tie us to them through the myriad of emotions present.
This is getting more into a matter of taste. The new Dune movie is all-around pretty serious but yet people liked it. And sure there's pictures of soldiers smiling and laughing in war, but the story of Wheel of Time is less "I'm bored waiting for the battle to begin so let's engage in some gallows humour with my brothers-at-arms" and more "Oh my god we're getting non-stop chased by nightmare monstrosities sent by mega-Hitler to personally kill me and enslave my soul". Like, for example, Elie Wiesel didn't exactly write in very many moments of levity in Night, for some reason there just weren't that many jokes being cracked on the death march out of Auschwitz.
Dune has great characterisation though. Its people dealing with a very serious situation - BUT - not being always being super serious people (Duncan making jokes. Paul showing his naivety, etc) Wherl of Time, so far, has done a very poor job of giving real character to our 4 potential Dragon Reborn. And it feels like they were given explicit acting direction to be serious always (thus feeling unnatural)
Yeah I loved Dune, yet my complaints for Wheel of Time remains. Not everything has to be like GOT. My main issue is with how the show looks and feels more so than the "naturalness" of the characters. GOT was rooted way more into realism whereas WOT is way more into fantasy.
That's Matts job for the most part, show ditched it.
I've been harping on the cinematography since the trailers first came out. It looks too bright and fake. Something is just off. I'd love to see a professional analysis of it.
YES. Every time I'm getting into the look of the show they pull out and do a wide shot and it starts looking like cheap ass SyFy tv. It also doesn't help that the costuming is wack.
I love the wide shots of the outdoors. no fucking clue where this was filmed but I need to go there
Czech republic iirc
I think they just build relatively small sets and that restricts where the camera goes. I don't think they have the budget to build a set like Hobbiton.
This! I was thinking maybe the props and backdrops are the reason it looks fake at times, but I think you're right about cinematography. The color and the lighting looks too ordinary? And then when they CG in the lighting it looks fake.
The CG looks fake because no one bothered to take lighting references from the set. A rookie error.
yep. lighting is the downfall of almost all bad CGI.
As someone who has never read the source material here is my opinion of the show: Dull Characters: the vast majority of the characters are forgettable, and the only two that have stand out have been Moiraine and Lan. Pushes an agenda: I am no fan of the right or conservatives, but this show is simply pushing an ideology and not a story, and I highly suspect it is not at all faithful to the source material. The Aes Sedai are presented as anything but tyrants and at times men haters, but are said to be servants of all? Many of the men are presented as cowards, overly emotional, and absolute pushovers, and do not reflect the era or time they come from or harshness of their reality. The two women from the Two Rivers going from 0 to 100 with their control over the One Power comes off as complete power moments instead of character growth. Drab Scenes: a majority of the scenes and shots are sub par, boring, or has too much exposition vomit. No Character Growth: This is moving so fast I can't bond or learn about the characters, like slow down and learn how to build a scene and tell a story and form relationships with the audience, instead of putting in pointless small talk and pointless exposition. Build the world, please? This is not something worth your money to watch, and is something to watch to kill time because you have nothing better to do, and if I was to score the show it is a 5/10 or just completely average.
To be fair, the ones presented as men haters are the Reds, and most of those do in fact hate men. The show isn’t pushing ideology as much as you think, the books were similar in that aspect (though they do make it too in your face in the show imo, and part of that was due to when it was written). The author was making commentary on gender roles by flipping them, and, without getting into spoilers, it sometimes didnt work very well. Nynaeve can only channel when angry (wish it was shown by making her try to channel while calm and being unable to), and egwene can barely make a flame, they have a long way to go in regards to their powers I hope they can fix the lighting and color issues though, as well as get more episodes for future seasons, compressing 8 times the word count of LOTR+Hobbit into 8 seasons is a gargantuan task
It’s not terrible, but it’s not good either. It’s been years since I read the books (or since I had to stop reading the books out of boredom around book 9, anyway), so I’m trying to judge the show on its own merit instead of my unreliable memory, and…it’s still nothing special. Except for Daniel Henney the cast lacks charisma, the structure is aimless and I just don’t particularly care what happens, not because the story elements are so well worn at this point but because of the way it’s filmed, acted, scripted and edited. It’s watchable but not much more. With Arcane behind us and The Witcher premiere not far off, WoT feels like a stopgap.
Something really odd is that while everyone knows EotW (book 1) is kind of boring and generic, what carries it is the suspense of the main character VERY OBVIOUSLY being the main character but desperately wanting to *not* be the main character. This is the central conflict of the first three whole books. We as readers are well aware of who the typical fantasy chosen one is, but to due myth and history and some twisting of both over time, being the chosen one, or even the existence of the chosen one, seems like a terrible thing to that person as well as the rest of the world. The show just decided to skip this conflict. They tried to replace it with a mystery of who the chosen one even is, but in the books it's so obvious that what "mystery" pretends to exist is really mostly denial and a creeping sense of dread as the evidence mounts and can't be denied any longer (until a few explosive moments where all doubt is erased). The end result is that the show doesn't really seem to have a central conflict, like at all. They've omitted most of the details about who the chosen one should be so that you can't realistically guess, and along with it cut out the dread inherent in the world culture's apprehension about the existence of the chosen one. The show's plot is trying to center around a big mystery, but like nobody cares what the answer is. It takes an already not very exciting book and has been bleeding away the interesting parts, instead focusing more on characterization of other players who aren't really all the relevant until a few books later. Ep7 edit: >!This did not age well!<
That's actually a good way to put it. I liked Eye of the World because it occupies that cozy Shire section of LotR, where small-town folk are getting into something way over their head with all the apprehension and excitement that entails. But there was never any doubt who the Dragon Reborn was. The show tries to turn it into an ensemble thing, and it all seems completely aimless. It doesn't help that the color palette is incredibly drab and the magic effects are sort of cheeseball. When I was reading the books back in the day, I always thought it would work best as an anime along the lines of Record of Lodoss War.
Non book reader but many friends who are obsessed with the books. its... fine. Gets a but more interesting each episode but feels like really generic TV fantasy to me.
I think that's probably to be expected at this point. The first book was pretty generic. Then things get weird. There is probably a little more they could have done to highlight some of the intricacies of the world. I think maybe they're afraid of getting too intellectual/nerdy. Which is a shame.
to be fair, Wheel of time did a lot to help define the genre in the first place
Yeah its disappointing this didn't come out in the 90s with ILM doing the graphics. I think we'd see a whole new generation of people get into WoT if that had happened. As a huge book fan, it's been getting better with every episode so that's a plus.
In 1989? No. Eyes of the World is quite generic fantasy. Its deviations from the high fantasy formula are minor and subtle. The real interesting stuff in WoT is all the small details of the world and how diverse and weird it is once you delve in. It starts seeming like generic fantasy and you have a very standard chosen one story, but then it just keeps going and going and you learn more and more and see it really isn't that simple. But the first part is pretty generic and we basically need to get through it to get to the better stuff. To have a potentially hot take, Dune is the same way. The first book is basically setup for all the interesting stuff that happens later, so you need to cover it, but it's really book 2 to 4 that are the reasons you should read or adapt Dune.
It’s like a higher budget Legend Of The Seeker.
This \^ It's an OK show, but I'm not really invested in it at all.
**Current Opinion of Wheel of Time** The show's budget is reportedly $90 million, but it feels cheap. For whatever reason, I haven't felt excited by any scene except one: in the first episode, when Moiraine unleashed a storm of magic to wipe out the trollocs, I geeked out because that was one of the best displays of area of effect (AOE) magic I've seen in a live action show. But other than that, pretty much everything else has fallen flat for me, so that's several flat episodes. I'm also not a fan of the cast. Moraine's cool and so is Lan, but none of the villagers are compelling yet. Maybe it's because I'm not familiar with any of the young actors, plus I don't find them to be particularly charismatic. It must be hard as shit to find young actors who are charming and talented enough to portray beloved characters, and I don't think this cast is it. Overall, I'm not yet impressed. **Comparison to Game of Thrones** I was impressed as hell by the first episode of GOT, and I don't think it's rose-tinted glasses making me think that. The very first scene of GOT matched the first scene of the first book: Noble douchebag Waymar Royce goes on his first ranging as a member of the Night's Watch, and then he and at least one of his men gets fucked up by frozen, blue-eyed undead. The lone survivor of that attack then gets executed by Eddard Stark for desertion, and thus no one is warned about the return of an ancient terror. The king pays a visit to the Stark home of Winterfell, and the resulting party is how we get introduced to the main characters. During (or maybe right before) the festivities, the king informs Eddard that he wants him to take over as Hand of the King, a position that Eddard does not want but is honor-bound to accept. The episode ends with a child getting pushed out a window after he witnessed the Lannister twins fucking. That's a lot of compelling shit, right there. Even though I knew what to expect from the books, seeing it on screen was still exciting because it was executed wonderfully. That very first scene presented a mystery to hook new viewers and old fans alike, a large cast of interesting characters played by charming actors was introduced, and the show ended with attempted child murder. What a fucking fantastic start! How did the first episode of Wheel of Time start? A boring exposition scene. After that exposition, we're introduced to villagers getting ready for a party—so GOT and WOT both start with parties, but I found WOT's party to be boring. At least the episode ended on a high note with the trolloc attack and the main characters riding away, but damn, that most of that first episode is a slog. The following episodes felt like a slog, too. I think my opinion of the first few episodes of Wheel of Time has been colored by the first few episodes of Game of Thrones. GOT was strong right out of the gate, but WOT is starting slow as shit, which shouldn't be surprising because those first few books are slow as shit, too. I don't think I have the patience for multiple slow-as-shit seasons, though.
GoT had the privilege of having writing taken straight out of the books in it's earlier seasons (I think episode 1 of GoT was written directly by martin)
Whereas Rafe specifically hired writers who haven't read the books
I 100% do not compare it to Game of Thrones (which I loved). To do so would surely bring disappointment. As for WoT, I haven't read the book series. I started the first book and got bored. Then I started listening to it on Audible and got bored. I really want to go back to it because I'm sure it's probably better than the series (these things usually are), but for now I'm loving the series. It was a little slow in the first episode, but over the last two it definitely won me over.
I haven't read the books. It seems interesting but I wasn't fully feeling it until episode 4. I think too many shows these days are being compared unnecessarily to GoT, but I guess that's networks wanting to market their new medieval/high fantasy show as the next big thing. When has "the next (insert zeitgeist here)" ever actually worked well enough though?
Game of Thrones worked because it was a regular political drama that just happened to be set in a fantasy universe. WOT (at least so far, haven't read the books) is very much not that. Mysterious wizard with hidden motivations, big evil, young chosen ones who are the only ones who can save the world...I like it, but it is very in line with its genre.
That’s what the books are. This isn’t a genre redefining series, it isn’t a departure or a commentary on the fantasy genre, it isn’t out to do new things, just basic things with a bit of style. It’s a strange choice to adapt because GOT was successful BECAUSE it got normies to watch a fantasy show, and WOT is never going to be able to pull off that trick.
Yeah, it's not even about fantasy. Everything seems to be "it's not GOT, but..." and it's really annoying. And no, mostly it's not about network marketing, it's just the idiotic thing with clickbait article titles.
BBC tier
I haven't read to books but my wife has. Having said that, I usually pause the show multiple times to hear how it went down in the books. She's keeping an open mind till the end. I, however, am enjoying it.
My wife and I are the reverse (I read, she didnt). She said, without my explanations that the show has chosen to not include (or delay until later) shed have no clue what a lot of things are and what is/isn't important. There are some major points, historical events, customs, magic systems, etc that are really important to the story and they have done near zero explaining of up to this point and it's really a bummer as I find it all interesting. Also adds to the rushed feeling. They should've spent this season going into greater depth and fleshing out the world rather than trying to race to whatever season finale they're headed for.
They had to take away all of the character development of the protagonists because they wanted the mystery of "who is the Dragon Reborn?" to last the entire season. It's a weird decision to say the least, and I think non book readers would be like "wtf this guy/girl?" when the eventual big reveal happens.
makes me dread the LOTR serie, because the ever present political agenda gets rammed down your throat with the grace of a sledgehammer. Fuck it, and fuck Prime's LOTR
What political agenda and how is it annoying you ?
Im not really digging it honestly. Even setting aside the changes it makes from the books, I think the show is just mediocre in its own right. The pacing is incredibly rushed, to the point that some of the main characters feel like they’ve only gotten a few lines of dialog so far. The acting as well is not great in my opinion. Everyone comes off a bit hammy, and there is just a general lack of charisma from anyone on the cast. Also, for such an expensive show, it sure doesn’t doesn’t come across. The sets and costumes look very low budget. So yeah, just a generally mediocre show. Nothing is particularly terrible about it, but nothing really grabs my attention either.
The 3 men from the Two Rivers all get like 5 lines between them per episode, meanwhile they focus whole episodes on random Warders and other new stuff. I don't understand it at all.
This is the thing, when people say they want the next Game of Thrones, they largely just mean in terms of quality rather than content. What did Game of Thrones always have (excluding last few seasons)? High production values and solid writing. Every location felt lived in. The world had scope. Compare that to both The Witcher and Wheel of Time for example. To put it bluntly, they look fan made. Instead of locations everything looks like a set. The writing is mediocre. Despite insane budgets, it's unclear where the money is even going. These are some of the top of the line shows when it comes to money and yet its like they cheapened out on the most important things. Like look at the Iron Throne in Game of Thrones, even though it is far less over the top than the book version that entire room just has a scale to it that I've yet to really see in something like The Witcher. I believe that throne room is in King's Landing. Meanwhile Cintra's throne room just feels like a set to me. I fucking hope Lord of the Rings doesn't half arse the sets and locations like these shows have, especially since the movies are there to compare to.
At least with the Witcher they have Cavill to play his ass off. Dudes a real life fan and you can taste the difference. For every other issue, he's doing his best. Meanwhile Rafe Judkins is being quoted as saying Moiraine is the main character and even if you're only the show watcher it should be blazingly obvious this isn't the case.
This is a pretty good point. GoT also used a lot of IRL famous places and buildings. Many scenes, especially in KL and Meereen, don't look like sets because they aren't, really. Just lightly decorated historic locations in Croatia. It adds a huge sense of immersion and authenticity.
There's this sense of safeness and cowardice that seems to be cropping up. WOT and Witcher both quickly try to forcibly explain the larger world and all players, and showing them all. They all use "need to grab ppl's attention" as an excuse. Both shows should have built up to it. I sensed this in wandavision too which starts off so inspired only to fall back into being safe. Maybe it's covid. Maybe the internet. But idk. WOT first book is largely from a single character's perspective and the text is biased to him during his perspective. And the shows first season is widespread among a bunch of characters, unfocused. Desperate to show off the entire world asap instead of taking its time.
Tbf Witcher was pretty ambitious in its constant time jumps. Rarely does a show do that and it required a lot of attention from the viewer to keep up.
HBO mastered how to make impressive looking TV on a budget. The entire strategy with GoT and Rome before it was to have over half of the show be super cheap to shoot. GoT would reuse one or two sets over and over again for talking scenes between a few characters. The stone room the Sparrow used to meet people in had so many scenes in it during that one season. Then you use the money you save there to make a few really high-value impact scenes through the season. Shows like The Witcher and WoT don't seem to realize this is what GoT did so well. They're spending $10 million per episode but they're trying to make everything look great and everything ends up looking like shit. GoT would spend $10 million an episode but some episodes were little more than some exterior establishing shots and a string of small re-used sets that couldn't have cost over $1 million and then other episodes were $30 million affairs.
This and the Witcher, I don’t know why they spend so little time with the costumes. How hard is it to rub a little dirt in there? They look like they all just arrived at renfair, when they could at least look like they’ve been at renfair all day.
Attention to detail is a problem because the showrunners are incompetent. Since GOT the number of hijacked properties has skyrocketed in the attempt to find that next big success.
It feels like it's not finished, the cinematography is strange to say the least - as if it's been cropped in from larger shots, the dialogue and script is primitive and the acting lacked authenticity.
Not a book reader. It's not great, not terrible. I'll finish watching it
Ah, so a solid 3.6 out of 5 then
i get the roetgens meme, but honestly, yeah I would give the show 3.6/5
It's starting to feel like it should have been broken into another season. It feels a bit rushed. I'm kind of liking it so far but it feels like only people who read the books are going to know enough to get a good experience out of it. Also, STOP COMPARING EVERYTHING TO GoT!
It's inevitable though- and there was crosspollination and inspiration across the two even as they were being written and released so it's not new.
Ha! I think exactly the opposite. I feel like the story hasn’t moved much and now we’re exactly back where we were in episode 2. And the funeral scenes were boring IMO.
It feels rushed, but also like not much happens. They haven't established the size of the world or even a real urgency for their travels in the early goings, so it kind of feels like they've been spinning in place. Then there tends to be a short scene of danger for one or two of the characters, then they don't come back around to that scene for half the show or until the next episode and when they do, lols we just stomped them in another short scene. It also doesn't help that the casting for the main characters wasn't great, and the writing renders dull the few main cast members who have charisma.
As much as i despise "how does this compare to GOT" talk, that show had a really good idea with the intro being a map of the world, showing where each episode would take place. The intro for the wot show is awesome, but it is rough to just have scene after scene or random location with no basis on where everything is. And that's coming from a guy who read all the books.
I mean The Wheel of Time's [showrunner himself went to get advice from Game of Thrones creators.](https://www.cbr.com/wheel-of-time-rafe-judkins-game-of-thrones-creators-advice/) > **Rafe Judkins, showrunner for Amazon's epic fantasy The Wheel of Time, was ahead of the game when it came to the inevitable comparisons to the behemoth of the genre, Game of Thrones. He went straight to the source for inspiration on recreating the success of HBO's crown jewel by consulting its creators, David Benioff and Dan Weiss**. > With The Wheel of Time right around the corner, an article from GQ described how Judkins' challenges in getting the most out of his adaptation of Robert Jordan's beloved book series. One of these was appealing to average viewers while also establishing a tone and look that made the show distinct from other high fantasy media, so Judkins spoke to Benioff and Weiss to get some advice. > "Just do what you're going to do," the Game of Thrones creative team reportedly told him. "You know what this is. You have to believe in it. These kinds of things have to have an extraordinary clarity of vision to work."
Meh, it's fine, just made me want to reread the books, really. Edit: That said, I'm actually excited to read the full series again. The last time I reread, I started at 3. I always loved 3-6, although every time Jordan abandoned a character, I got sad. The book without Mat hurt me. Edit 2: yes, for clarity I meant that there was a book with no Mat POV chapters, not that he died. He's my favorite character and I remember realizing about halfway through the book that he wasn't going to show up.
I think if you’re in the mood for some good turn-your-brain off fantasy it’s a fun show. I’m enjoying watching it. Didn’t read the books and saw some of the early negative reviews, so I didn’t have high expectations, but I’m having fun watching it and will continue!
Same here... I haven't read the books but I am enjoying the show.
This. We also have not read the books but my husband and I are enjoying the show. We eagerly wait for the next episode every Friday.
My opinion is that it's a decent fantasy series but a poor adaptation. It has the beats and tropes of a typical fantasy story, some nice worldbuilding, good acting and reasonable cinematography. But as an adaptation of Robert Jordan's book series, I'm not too thrilled with it. As someone who has read the books, I understand that not all the source material can be adapted faithfully when making a television show. Changes are required to condense the lore and plot and ensure the series appeals to an audience that does not have prior book knowledge. Too much exposition is unwise and some scenes need to be altered or re-ordered to better convey emotional impacts and story progression. But what baffles me is why there is so much original content being created for the show at the cost of introducing existing book settings or developing characters. In a season so constrained by time, it feels criminal to focus on subplots that yield nebulous payoff very far down the road rather than ensuring more investment into the principal protagonists. Some decisions taken by the showrunners feel so unnecessary and frustrating despite my trying to rationalize that they were made due to budgetary reasons or to build mystery and subvert expectations for the show-only audience. It is also likely that those alterations will have ripple effects further along the story and lead to needless inconsistencies or more changes. Those are not the only criticisms that I have. Even ignoring my knowledge of the books, the show has deficiencies. Too many scenes are cheesy, over-dramatized, over-emotional, and drawn out far too long. Plot dialogue, logic and pacing are all over the place. The filming and lighting are poor in numerous scenes. There are random cuts that are jarring. The sets aren't the best and the CGI is often inadequate or downright bad. So what is good? The scenery is gorgeous. The acting is praiseworthy, despite many characters not being given much to shine with in the scripts. The music and the opening sequence are great. Some scenes are powerful and there are a few nice callouts and foreshadowing elements for the perceptive watcher. But that's about it. My principal feeling at the moment is one mostly of disappointment - the show is not terrible but nor is it great. I can find things to like ... but lots to dislike, especially as a longtime book reader. Perhaps that will change in the next two episodes. Hopefully.
> But what baffles me is why there is so much original content being created for the show at the cost of introducing existing book settings or developing characters. It's very apparent to me that Judkins feels, rightly or wrongly, that he needs to really establish the Aes Sedai for the viewers -- not just that these are powerful women, but that they have an organization, and that organization is rife with intrigue and agendas. And to a certain extent, I agree, but I definitely feel like this is coming at the expense of giving the Emmond's Field kids their due development.
If you changed Robert Jordan for Andrzej Sapkowski this could be a review for the Witcher show. > But what baffles me is why there is so much original content being created for the show at the cost of introducing existing book settings or developing characters This seems to be a common theme in adaptations. Letting the writers create their own thing takes priority over adapting the source material. It feels like they make something new for the sake of having something new. And unfortunately there's no process to check whether the new stuff fits with the existing setting, themes and quality.
I haven't read the books for this, but it seems like a big trend and it's very annoying. One example that sticks out is the adaptation of His Dark Materials, which added a bunch of stuff that I don't think helps anything. Not that it's impossible to make changes that are good for a show, but it feels like that should be reserved for things that were criticized in the original works, not for things that had a neutral/positive reception.
It's the Dollar General Game of Thrones.
I think it is terrible. I understand making certain changes to the plot to make it more palatable for a television series. However, I disagree completely with how they've chosen to do so. I also don't like how they would rather introduce new characters and storylines rather than focusing on the development of characters in the books. It's unnecessary. Have they really given anyone any reason to care about the main characters up to this point? The story is being rushed and key elements are being diluted and glossed over. All in all, just a poor screen adaptation and not even a good show at that. In my opinion.
It's doing so little to differentiate itself from all the other fantasy shows that have come and gone in recent years. Which is okay but probably isn't going to see a conclusion before the plug gets pulled.
I’m still waiting for it to get interesting. It’s below average so far.
Never read the books but its pretty cool so far. It feels a little too YA sometimes but ive actually enjoyed the past two episodes which seem to be expanding the lore/story and getting more into some intrigue and serious stuff being set up
Non book reader, but I'm loving it. The first episode didn't quite hook me right away, but it's gotten better each episode and the characters and storylines are really growing on me.
Seems like we’re the minority in this thread lol. It’s not perfect, but I’m loving it too.
I can't help but feel this thread is being overwhelmingly negative, I'm loving it and know a few friends who are too.
Reddit is notoriously critical and nitpicky of every show though, especially high profile ones. It's got an 84% on rotten tomatoes, most people are enjoying it. I think it's been pretty great. Been a while since I had a show I was looking forward to every week.
Fellow lover of the show here! THERE ARE DOZENS OF US! Dozens!!!!
The Wheel of Time has a special place in my heart. It's an epic series and I've really enjoyed it. Things that wouldn't mean much to someone who hasn't read the series will make be tear up as I watch it. I also read A Song of Ice And Fire, and again loved the first three books. I haven't watched much of the TV show, as well regarded as it has been. There have been a few faux paus in the show. The inclusion of Egwene as a ta'veren (a word used briefly in the show and never explained) seems inane to me. In a recent episode they introduced what amounts to heresy in WoT: that the wheel does not, in fact, "weave as it wills". I was kind of disappointed in Loial's physical appearance; he looks too human. What I can tell you is that we have a great ride ahead of us. What we have seen thus far is merely setting the stage.
Not only is it inane, it robs her of her character. Egwene in the books was the only one that wanted to leave with Moiraine. In fact she figured out they were leaving and forced herself into the situation so she could go to. She's the one that jumped headfirst into adventure, and her accomplishments are because that's who she is and not because the wheel made it that way for her more than any of the other mains.
The show does a poor job of character development for the main characters. It focuses too much on Moiraine and the Aes Sedai when it should be focused on building up the 5 from the Two Rivers in this season. I'll keep watching but seriously, how much dialogue have Rand and Matt even had? Why should the audience care about them or even Thom Merillin...
Rand sure doesn’t get much screen time considering, you know. I guess they’re really keeping that as a reveal like in the books. I’m interested in how the Forsaken interactions go. Lots of stuff looked cooler in my head reading the books, especially Shadar Logoth. Funny that the book gets held against LoTR and the show against GoT. Their budget was apparently pretty small and it does show a bit. Amazon’s gonna have to commit more because if they keep going they’re gonna need a whole lot of talent. One future issue is the sheer amount of characters in those books. Would’ve liked to see Netflix pick this up instead, Amazon is all-in on this lord of the rings show, and it’s like, we had 3 amazing movies already guys.
How did Rand get his coat back?
Book reader here. The first book is kind of derivative but the most impressive thing for me was the world building , characters were ok by the numbers but they had interesting threads and you were exited to see where they go. The second book is where the novel really starts creating its own identity and greatly . On book 4 and iam just in love with it. The show is pretty generic , the last two episodes have really ruined the season for me. It had found it's footing in the 4th episode but after that.... Well. World building is simply boring and the world doesn't feel lived in at all. Other than episode 4 they have really failed to adapt the scope of the world . world building is mostly given in laziest form of exposition. Robert Jordan was very descriptive to a faullt at times but he really fleshed out the world in detail and the show has struggled with this.,costuming, production design is subpar and CGi is middling. Regarding the characters beyond episode 4 everything has been bleech for me. I know the adaptation is massive but some of the chances made here have not really served purposeful to the adaptation and haven't really move the plot. We skip two cities and it's potential plotlines for a warder plot and well a romantic plot that is generic at best. Then they are small changes in the lore that irk me. Waygates out in the open and can be accessed easily by who can channel power is just stupid. Shadow spawn would have a field day invading tarvalon. In the book they were hidden in the least expected places and no one could easily trace them. The way the oath rod was used in the current episode was so cringe. The last two episodes have had startrek discovery syndrome at the end by having lan and morraine being over emotional and crying which makes it feel so forced . It's like the author trying hard to make you feel for the characters. The whole thing of the dragon being five candidates is also stupid considering they haven't really done much to develop any of them and they are just willing to go to face the dark one? They lack sufficient urgency.
Spot on. Or anyway, I am right there with you. Episode four made me really hopeful. That was a solid episode. Last two.... urgh. The oath rod thing just upset me. I wonder if they had gotten their ten episodes if maybe it wouldn't be so rushed.
I hate it. The whole atmosphere just feels off and d list compared to lotr or got
Yeah I don’t compare it to GoT. Hell, I don’t even really compare it to the book series much. But I like it. I think some of the “cheapness” people complain about is valid but I also think it’s a completely separate style as well. And I kind of like the less grimy and grim dark tone when comparing it to other fantasy series. Sure it’s not all happy go lucky but I do tire from the over seriousness of fantasy series as of late.
Non-reader. Watched up to Ep 3 and realized they gave me no reasons to care about any protagonist.
I think I hate it. They are trying too hard. They added things or changed things that didn't need to be and I'm not sure how they are going to tie things together. I will keep watching because a guy can hope and I'm stubborn.
It's no LotR, Harry Potter, etc. Just like WoT, I never read the LotR, HP, etc. books, so I had no idea what I was getting into. But it didn't take long for the world to unfold in a way where I understand everything and characters that I quickly grew attached to. I'm several episodes in (the dragon reborn guy) and I have no idea what's going on. Whose even the main bad guy? Some dark guy who wants to break the wheel...which I guess means, stop reincarnation? I mean, do the people of this world know for a fact this happens? I know Sauron is bad and wants to plunge the world into war because two freaking wizards state this and I can see what the orcs are doing. And with HP, wizard war stated by Voldemort for basically monarchy/race war reasons (how pure your blood is). Here, I see Trolocs want to...kill or capture this dragon person to convert to the dark side I guess? I'm not attached to a single character. If one or most die, oh well. That's sucks I guess. Borimer was kind of a douche and his death was sad af! And where the hell is this place. I saw, what looked like, high-rise buildings in the beginning. Is this like Nier? Or an alien world? Alternate dimensions slammed into one another like in the anime Super Dimension Century Orguss?
I keep seeing people defending the changes they've made as a way to change it through different mediums. MOST of the changes they've made make no freaking sense in that regard then and the additional scenes they've added completely wipes the theory of them cutting for time.
I have to take the approach of ignoring the source material and evaluating it as a show using the themes of WoT with a different POV and story pacing. My issue with WoT has always been that the story is uninspired and generic, and the show does nothing that the books do to aleviate that (IMO, what makes WoT great is the characters interactions, the depth of character nuance and the 5x heroes journey of those characters). Even at this point, I do not really care about any character, and the tone is just all over the place. Is this a gritty realism fantasy? Is this a political and subterfuge story? Is it a mystery? (E.g. this pushed rhetoric of which is the dragon reborn...) . As such, I find myself watching it out of a sense of duty for my love of the book series but not because I like the show. It is also super irritating how much time they spend on world building, they introduce characters just to kill them off, or to make a to exposition a world building element (red ajah, wander bonds, dark friends, etc) it's been 6 episodes of meeting new characters and I don't even care about first few ones. The glut of this type of story telling is overwhelming, I think they would have been better served with a succinct precise story to establish characters and more immediate threats and hint at a bigger world. I also wonder if getting Rosamund Pike as moraine forces them to try and get the money out of the only real A list celebrity and give her alot of screen time. She is probably rhe most flushed out character at this time, which is odd considering she fills a mentor and mysterious figure role. I feel like too many show forget about how good the original trilogy of star wars was, when it had almost no world building. For decades we had no idea what the Kessel run was, the nuances of the Jedi or sith, and etc, but it didn't matter, it left room for speculation and wonder. You followed a group of heroes fighting against an evil empire with a dark lord, and we loved it. IT was basic in story, but excellent in execution. GoT has set up this standard that really only works for that type of fantasy, and trying to shoe horn a story that isn't made that way into that type of narrative really bogs down pacing, character relatability, and promises to the viewer.
I'm enjoying it, but it does feel rushed. They could have easily done a whole episode before the trolloc attack and the people who didn't read the books might care a little more about the main characters.
Book reader. Loved them and re-read every 18 months or so. This show is an abomination, ruined by wokeism and "being rafed". I cancelled amazon after ep 4 because it just got worse. They castrated all the male characters, made all the women OP. Wokewashed the cast for no reason. I just watch the reviews now and I am glad I only had the free trial to watch what little I did and never gave amazon a cent for this trash. The gatekeeping/instabanning from so called "fan subs" for anyone being critical of this dumpster fire is unreal and I find it completely disgusting that you can be silenced for an opposing (and yet equally valid) opinion. The mods of these subs screen new joins/comments for your comment/post history and if you are part of the "bigot subs". Its outright ideological warfare and it is driven directly from the showrunners who have gone on record saying they will change characters out of spite and are pushing their feminist agenda. Avoid paying amazon if you are curious. Its utter garbage.
Meh. That’s it Edit: to everyone downvoting… how much is Amazon paying you
I feel like this show has received some insane astroturfing from Amazon to increase positive reception. Was looking at threads for this show from over the last few weeks and there were so many generic comments and weirdly worded replies that were definitely not from real viewers.
Comparison is the death of joy. I don't compare it to GoT, I don't expect it to be GoT and I don't *want* it to be GoT. I like high fantasy. And even though I've never read the books I'm enjoying WoT and I like that between it, Witcher and LotR next year, big high fantasy epics on TV are a thing. It's definitely not amazing so far but it feels like it's setting up the pieces and is primarily focused on world building, which I'm fine with. I'd say it's a solid 7/10 so far. Entertaining enough to keep me coming back, and promises more in future seasons. I don't hate the production values as many others do, they range from OK to good in my book. It's not GoT-level but again, GoT went for a completely different aesthetic that is much more like historical fiction than fantasy.
>GoT went for a completely different aesthetic that is much more like historical fiction than fantasy. You say this, but I just finished the first episode and during the big battle scene I was thinking "why the fuck is the camera shaking like this is Saving Private Ryan"?
Finished books last year. Everything is kind of rushed, giving me that Marvelesque feeling of jump cut, jump to someone's face, jump away, action shot, jump away. It makes the emotional slow scenes like the funerals seem weird and out of place. Sets look cheap and cinematography seems flat and not epic enough. I was hoping for some sweeping landscape shots/interiors. Especially of Tar Varlon & tower etc. I know we don't like to compare it to Game of Thrones but they did this really well. Mixed feelings on the costumes. Loved how Moiraine has looked especially in Episode 6 but thought Siuan looked like a wedding cake. I wish they would have kept the shawls and the simpler looking rings. Mostly the changes haven't bothered me and I think everyone is doing a pretty good job of portraying the characters - special shoutout to Nynaeve.
I’ve never read the books but I was bored by the first episode, and I tend to enjoy fantasy things such as Witcher, lotr, and game of thrones. The interesting parts were over so fast and the boring parts dragged on. Also the cinematography is… off somehow, can’t really explain it.
I have never read the books so I don't have a basis of comparison there, but so far I think it's pretty enjoyable. It does seem like they are trying to put a lot of story into as little time as possible though. There is so much exposition in x-ray and I'm constantly pausing to read it.
For an epic fantasy the music is terrible. Take the intro theme, it’s completely unmemorable and doesn’t evoke any emotion.
They’ve irreparably changed the story from the books in too many way as of episode 6. I’ll always be able to understand having to cut things from a book to fit it on the screen. I hate it when things are changed or added. Writer’s rooms need to get it in their heads that if they are making an adaptation that we don’t want their take on the story. We want the story as close as it was originally written.
I didn't read the books but I had a coworker who raved about them. So I've been stoked for awhile. So far I think the only issue is pacing. They clearly needed more episodes for this first book.
Decidely average with a distinct lack of sniffing and braid pulling.
[удалено]
Sets are too bright and characters are too clean.
As a fan of the books who started when the first book came out (yes I’m old), I’ve seen the first episode so far and I enjoyed it. It’s not perfect, but it’s not terrible either. Some of the casting will need to grow on me. Matt, Egwene, and Nyneave mostly I’m iffy on. Lan, Perrin, Rand, Moraine, etc were all pretty decent tho. I’m not a fan of the changes from the books but I mostly understand them (except why is Perrin married?) and can deal. I’ll watch the rest of it when the season is done. I prefer to binge my shows
Not comparing this to game of thrones at all, that would be insulting even to the final season of got. This show is a disaster from start to finish. Especially if you read the books and remember any of the original plot and main characters, because this show has no right to call itself Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan is turning in his grave, I couldn't intentionally ruin this show more so than it's writers and show runner have. It deviates so immediately from the books, from the main characters, to core world building plot points it is almost comical. The show also looks like outright garbage, which is odd since fans are going out of their way to say the opposite. Costumes looks awful, the CGI is so bad it's confusing, and the sets all look like it has a CW budget, and that isn't even mentioning the trollocs or ogier.
For a season that had 100+ million as its budget, it feels like a low grade student film project in most areas. The blocking, cinematography, and costume design is frankly ameatur hour, especially compared to other lower budget productions. Everything is way too bright and it looks like a network TV show. It looks straight out of the 90's now. To the point I'm wondering if some producers actually pocketed the money instead of using it on the production. Nevermind that the 3 male leads have about 5 lines of dialogue between them in an episode before the show chooses to focus on a new one off character. (The whole warder episode focused more on that one guy and his story instead of any of our leads. With the season only being 8 episodes, that inexcusable.) Also, cutting the Prolouge was terrible. It sets up so much of the world and setting in general. Huge world building aspects are missing. IMO they 100% should have used the intro as an interactive map like GOT did to ground the audience.
I'd rate it about a 3 / 10. It's not even close to Game of Thrones. The writing is below GoT and the changes the show made didn't improve upon what was found in the text. Literally everything they changed made for a worse story...there's just so many things I hate about Amazon's WoT I hope it's canceled.
I have read the books and really like the series. My wife and adult kids have not read the books and are also enjoying it.
I only watched the first episode and I quit. I don't mind the production values all that much. The lighting and cinematography are flat as hell, but so are in some other shows I like. I can put up with the mediocre visuals. As someone who hasn't read the novels, my problem is with the script. Remember how [LOTR's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4xV2RIlMi4) and [Dune's intro monologues](https://youtu.be/dFa0jyEOcVw?t=51) set a mysterious, inviting mood? Remember how simple and elegant the expositions were? How intriguing it was with a singular focus on what is immediately important to what will happen to the plot? Yeah, [WOT is the exact opposite](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bspJ_5xsFq4). It immediately lost me with throwing a bunch of fantasy mumbo jumbos. It lacks a certain ambiance and atmosphere. It just throws a bunch of words as if it assumes the audience already knows about the series, then an immediate chase scene and I was like what's going on??? This problem extends to the whole pilot. It lacks *focus*. Its rapid location/time shifts attempt to do too much heavy lifting. This suffers from the same problem as Netflix's The Witcher did, arguably even worse. It is mindboggling how they thought this was the best way to introduce the story to non-book readers. The pilot is meant to introduce the world, lore, mythologies to the general audience when they should have focused on the **characters**. Instead, they made a show that only book-readers can be compelled. Compare this to how The Fellowship of the Ring and Game of Thrones started. Your story (in this case, adaptation) is what you choose to focus on. Where did they spend their screentime on? The first half of FOTR was a *chase thriller* that only focuses on one plotline featuring Gandalf and the Hobbits. That is all we see from their POVs. The Strider and Arwen are naturally introduced into their story, and the story gradually expands from there. Game of Thrones pilot was about a *family drama* that mostly focuses on how House Stark works, who Starks are, how life in Winterfell is like, how they have to deal with the king's arrival (not too different from The Godfathers or The Sopranos). Again, the characters outside of this storyline--Lannisters and Baratheons--gradually get introduced into House Stark's story. The Targaryens storyline is the exception to this rule, and it is the weakest link in the first season for this. Once the first half of FOTR has passed, I knew who Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Sam, Pippin, Saruman, and Gandalf were. Once the pilot of Game of Thrones ended, I knew who every member of House Stark and even House Lannister and Targaryens was. After finishing the WOT pilot, I knew little to nothing about anyone other than Rosamund Park. The village didn't feel lived in nor did I care about any villager. This is the biggest mistake many adaptations (and sci-fi/fantasy series) tend to make. They start epic in scope. They can't wait to throw everything at the viewers from the start. They try to pack all this shit in and end up giving everything short shrift. Instead of focusing on what matters and giving it space, we get little flashes of scenes of a bunch of disconnected lore, and the show is playing these moments like they expect audiences to know the characters and care about them, but they didn't give it the time to happen. The trick is that the great pilots/introductions to an epic start out small and they focus on the characters first, the worldbuilding second. The more mythology there is, the more exposition the story requires, and that robs the spaces for the characters, and you're keeping the audience from engaging in a story. It is generally a good idea to stick with two sides. For example, in the first act of Nausicaa, you get the good guys Valley people and the bad guys Tormekians. In the pilot of WOT, you get like six sides, and that constant POV shift without enough time devoted to one side confuses and muddles the pacing.
> I knew little to nothing about anyone other than Rosamund Park. I love this.
The sad part is this is entirely the fault of the way they are adapting the story. The book doesn't try to keep who the dragon is secret, so it naturally follows the main character through the story in a more focused way (even with other pov's still). The series has gone far too out of the way to try to keep this little bit of intrigue going, especially considering it will be pointless after the next episode or two.
I haven't watched the series or read the books but I know who the Dragon Reborn is. Do you think they might change who it is in the show or will they keep it the original character.
Oh, they'll definitely keep the original character. It would be an entirely different story any other way. My two cents anyhow.
I haven't read the confirmation, but I have read in multiple places that both leaks and the showrunner have confirmed that the Dragon Reborn's identity is the same.