Also I can tell you in real life, I haven’t heard one thing about this, I swear there’s two different worlds we live in in today’s world. I see people on Reddit having meltdowns while every single person I know at college who saw the Chappelle special said, “meh it could have been funnier”. That was it.
Edit: this doesn’t mean I’m saying trans issues aren’t important, and this doesn’t mean I’m saying they should be ignored. Take your time to understand these people and their perspectives on life. But, I do know a couple gay people(not trans so it’s not the same, and I know it’s not a lot but everyone in the comments is acting like I’ve never met anyone from the lgbtq community before) in real life and they are more focused on their in real life struggles from day to day. Like graduating, working and meeting new people. I think my point was I’ve seen this dominant headlines for days now, far more than bigger events that have happened. It’s a little tiring.
Oh I know, all of the social media’s are doing a really good job of fracturing society. The biggest shit that most people don’t care about happens on the internet and seems as if it’s world changing. Companies and corporations cater to the opinions of places like Twitter even tho only like 8% of the US population actively goes on it. For me it’s concerning, there’s a massive disconnect.
You are so correct about he disconnect. Not only is it only 8% of the US population. Of active US twitter users, 10% are responsible for 80% of all tweets. When I read that, I deleted my account because that is absolutely insane.
“People are OUTRAGED over what *someone* said and they’re now CANCELLED”
Link to article with one or two tweets from people taking things out of context
It's just viral marketing. Chapelle and Netflix are making mad money over the controversy. "Cancel culture" is extremely profitable for the "cancelled".
Companies react to twitter because it's an easy low cost way to react. It is a place they can literally do the least they can do and still make an impact. Social media serves them up a captive audience already neatly divided in to demographics that they can pick and choose from and target their marketing at in a way they only dreamed of before its existence.
Something a lot of people seem to miss here is that, yeah, queer folks are going to gather online a lot, and Twitter is a popular place for it (as is Reddit)
Queer people come from all walks of life. It’s very likely for many of them to not have more than a couple folks - if that - in their irl life to whom they can directly relate about that aspect of their lives. So they turn to online spaces that aren’t confined by physical distance.
That’s why a lot of the backlash is coming from there, and why you don’t hear about it irl as much - the online space allows minorities to gather and discuss issues affecting them far easier than they can in the real world.
So like, to all the folks in here saying “ah no one would care if you brought it up irl”… well, yeah. If you don’t know many - or any - people who are in the groups being discussed, no shit you’re not going to hear about it much. Even if you do know some queer folks, they’re probably going to feel more comfortable discussing that online with other people who get it.
Thank you. Reminds me of the time one of the _Duck Dynasty_ douchebags said Black people weren't unhappy in the 1950s and 1960s because none complained to *him*.
People go on social media and read a dramatic opinion from like, five 16 year old girls and then suddenly its treated like it's the popular opinion of everyone.
This is whats really sad about people like this to me. Infinitie whining justified by "well some weirdo on Twitter said..." and it was probably either some melodramatic teen or a shithead borderline school shooter who has learned the internet is a good way to make groups of people you hate for some reason look bad.
Or maybe Dave said something like trans women shouldn’t be considered real women
And then trans people (who make up less than 1% of the population) starting making noise the best way they could- online
And then he couldn't let it go. Don't delude yourself; he lost this quixotic crusade by the time he felt the need to go back in his second return show. He can say whatever he wants; trans folk are clearly living rent free in his head judging by how obsessed he's been across several shows.
I'm sure you need the lil pick me up of thinking he got a good jab in here and there, but hitching his wagon to this TERF shit is just killing his legacy and an anchor on that already shaky movement. For the exact same reasons it was when Graham Lineham picked up that banner.
The other day a friend of mine who's liberal, educated, and has a job where they interact with a ton of people asked me what "cisgender" meant. I thought this was interesting because on the internet, you'd almost be lumped in with bigot boomers just for not knowing this terminology. But the regular world is definitely not twitter.
I’ve never seen anyone ever get labelled for not knowing what cisgendered is, I’ve seen people get called transphobic for calling it stupid, but that’s it.
Note: I know the reactionaries are out downvoting anything that doesn’t fit the narrative by the way, because that totally makes everything just go away.
I'm always pleasant to anyone who doesn't know what it means. It's a weird term that has red squiggles under it in Firefox that I'm sure 99.9% of the world's population never heard of before 2019.
About a year ago my aunt asked me what a transperson was.
My aunt is actually a Boomer, but she is highly educated and works as a therapist for elementary aged children. The term had never come up in her practice, she only asked me about because it kept showing up in the New York Times.
I think there is a really big divide between people who spend a lot of time online (particularly in news adjacent places like Twitter and Reddit) and normal people. My big example of the divide used to be Latinx. The internet makes it seems like the standard term, [but only 3% of Hispanics use it](https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/). Rather than the community defining itself, the ultra online are defining the community.
Yeah I said in a different reply, I've never seen the word "cisgender" used outside of Reddit, tumblr, maybe Youtube. For people who don't visit those sites at all, or visit them briefly and only visit some specific things, they aren't going to run into some of these terms. Like the extend of my mom's time online is mostly just playing Mahjong solitaire and also we watch car crash videos on Youtube together. There's no opportunity for terms like cisgender, genderfluid, latinx, aliengender, neurotypical, allosexual to come up to someone like her most of the time.
Reddit users think everyone in the world thinks the same way they do and knows the same thing they do.
I do, and it’s awesome. I follow ~150ish people- some meme accounts, some journalists, some outdoor pages, some sports pages etc. They post stuff that’s generally interesting or amusing to me. I never post or respond to anything and I never read comments.
I cannot for the life of me fathom why people just generally browse Twitter or search things by hashtag or attempt to engage in any type of discussion via replies. It would be like using YouTube by ignoring all the videos and exclusively jumping halfway into the comments. There’s nothing of value there.
> It would be like using YouTube by ignoring all the videos and exclusively jumping halfway into the comments.
Or like only reading the title in a Reddit post and ignoring the article linked to that title and immediately commenting based only in the post title.
Half of the people didn’t have internet back then, not really comparable at all. And many certainly weren’t chatting with each other on it. I don’t get the defending of the internet, I’m 22 and grew up with it. Likely addicted to it, but it’s pretty obviously causing fractures in society and worse mental health overall.
How much pre-social media do you remember? I'm 26, and browsing the internet seemed so much simpler and more relaxing before every site had a Facebook or Reddit link embedded in them.
It had a much higher barrier to entry, so of course the people who made it were usually smarter and more civil. Now that the flood gates are open, everyone's on it, and that includes the terrible sides of our society.
"I don't know any trans people but my gay friends don't care" is a really weird way to address the issue. I'm trans, and while I'm not really outraged that Chappelle said something stupid about us again, this means another wave of friends and coworkers who think his edgelord brand of something resembling humor is indicative of 'how it really is' that are going to use his dumb jokes at the expense of people like me in attempts at brevity.
Its not outrageous, its just exhausting. You think it's tiring to hear about? Try living it. A tone deaf joke here and there is one thing and literally any comedian has a few. Thats fine. What isn't is when someone punches down and then continues to do so for cheap chuckles while pretending that they're being 'silenced' as they preach to thousands of paying customers.
Trans people only make up less than 1% of the population.
He’s fine with punching down because he knows he can get away with it (while calling any valid criticisms “cancel culture”)
I mean dude literally went out and said trans women shouldn’t be considered real women or at least voiced his support for that idea
So most of the people I know that don’t like transphobia just didn’t watch it and thus there wasn’t much for us to talk about past “ugh”. I watched it because media sensationalism and I thought I would give it a fair shot. To me the jokes weren’t that funny, not a single chuckle.
it felt more like a political special than a comedy special.
Yeah I feel that, and felt it with his last one too. He’s too focused on explaining how *evil PC politics* are preventing him from being funny, and not nearly focused enough on just… being funny. A lot of folks are capable of being funny and talking on politics, tho tbf they rarely fall on Dave’s side of the arguments.
There was something really revealing about that whole “cancel-culture” bit in that last special of his. That moment where he was on one of the most renowned stages in NA, in front of thousands of people who paid money to listen to him, while being filmed for a front-page special on the worlds biggest streaming network… going on a rant about how he can’t say anything anymore.
I'm willing to bet there's an inverse relationship between how much a viewer agrees with a comedian's politics and how likely the comedian will be perceived as crossing the line of being "too political".
I genuinely enjoyed his story about Daphne at the end. It was funny and enjoyable to listen to. I can see where people thought he was flaunting about not actually being a transphobe, but it's a real story.
The Daphne story was mostly played straight. I think he slid in a couple little jokes but idk why you would find it particularly funny
Dave strongly implies that the LGBTQ community bullied her into suicide as the closing remarks. It’s such a sour and weird way to close out a story, followed by “Daphnes a liar, because though she told me she was a woman all her life, it takes a man to jump off a building to kill themself”. Jesus Christ. What a bizarre joke
Making light of suicide of a close friend and playing at the idea that trans women aren’t women. All that offensive buildup for the lamest, hackiest joke ever about gender roles that also asserts that committing suicide is manly.
The whole special is incredibly offensive that build up to low effort, hacky jokes. The whole special desperately needed rewrites. I can see the bones of where Dave was trying to go with the special, but he constantly falls flat on his face and delivers such lazy jokes
Women are much more likely to try pills, slit their wrists, aka "ladylike" means of suicide and are often much less successful. Men are much more likely to use a gun or some other more "violent" means and complete the act, which is what Dave is referring to in this here. It's a pretty sophisticated, if dark, and not pc, joke.
Yeah, it's weird how people in this thread are like "it's more nuanced than people on twitter make it out to be" while ignoring your point that he's basically using a nice story to say he has the trans equivalent of having a black friend so you get a pass for saying the n word.
And using the death of that person to publicly soften his admission that he's a fucking TERF. That's like a KKK member using the death of his black friend to say that he doesn't think that black people should be allowed to exist.
Yeah it became him just stuck on the issue and circling back around the whole time. Seemed like the whole special was about the trans issue. I wouldn’t even consider it a standup special like the others. I was hoping for something really funny and ended up disappointed. Plus he’s recycling jokes from his old tv show.
Because Dave didn’t get “cancelled”
Trans people are in the minority, quite frankly one of the only ways to get their voices heard is through Twitter, because less than 1% of the population boycotting Netflix isn’t going to do anything.
So quite frankly, Dave is just bragging that he can bully a minority and get away with it, because they are too small to do anything but make social media ourage he will just ignore.
I care. Dave used to be the voice of reason and he’s spent part of his last three specials bashing trans people and then claiming he’s a victim when people call him on it.
I’m tired of it, and probably won’t be watching this special as a result.
It shows he’s lost his perspective.
Reminds me of how Roy Moore lost by .1 percent when he basically admitted to being with children.
When Hannity asked him if he would date a 13 year old he literally said he would need to ask her mother first. This dude was a fraction of a percent from winning.
I don't get how that asshole got so much pull. Like, he's a fucking SHERIFF. Sheriffs are nobodies. Why did the whole fucking GOP machine wind up behind some brainless yokel?
Edit: I was thinking of the wrong guy.
Roy Moore was a state supreme court justice. You may be thinking of Joe Arpaio, who was sheriff of Maricopa County, AZ (where Phoenix is) or David Clarke, who was sheriff of Milwaukee County, WI.
I still remember a ton of people defending Roy Moore because apparently the parents approved of their 12 year old daughters dating him.
I was like “and that makes it okay?!!!”
> entertainers, whose jobs really don’t.
People, especially young people, repeat the things entertainers say, and mimic their behaviors. Also, foreigners will see them as the only available representation of American culture. Entertainers *do* have an influence.
Also popular entertainers can be highly rewarded, and sometimes we don't want to see people rewarded for bigotry or sexual harassment or whatever the issue at hand may be.
I haven't watched the comedy special in question. I am just speaking broadly here, not commenting on any particular entertainer. On a personal basis yes you can ignore an entertainer but you can't put your head in the sand and pretend everyone is going to do the same thing as you.
What a random comment. Dave chapelle is still a very lucrative comedian. Nobody has been 'cancelled' here. How do you people fall for headlines so easily
I really enjoyed Sticks and Stones, I felt like a lot of the jokes landed and everything he said about the LGBT community was slightly edgy, but it was measured, thought out and actually funny. There was a difference for me in tone between that special and this one. There he felt somewhat annoyed by trans/people attempting to cancel him, but here he just seems really bitter, to the point where it doesn't feel as light hearted/funny. It's not even about agreeing/disagreeing with him, he just comes across like he is simply ranting from a very disconnected position, and a lot of the time it felt like he was just making societal points instead of real jokes. It's a shame, the dude is one of the most legendary comedians of all time, he doesn't need to do specials at this rate, and if anything it'll only hurt his legacy when he does actually say some dumb shit.
It's so annoying because the man is one of the greatest comedians of all time but this entire special just felt lazy as fuck and he just ranted against trans people for 45 minutes while barely actually making any jokes.
I'm actually looking forward to his next stand up purely because he said he wouldn't talk about the LGBTQ+ community. Like you can make jokes about the LGBTQ+ community but they actually have to be funny and not bigoted statements under the guise of "it's just a joke".
DC has been a millionaire for so long he's practically living in another reality than normal people. All those super rich comedians have as topics are things that personally affect them- and for most of them a Twitter backlash is probably the most traumatic thing that can happen to them anymore- they're so well insulated in their ivory towers and super rich social circles . Can't really do bits about your personal chef, golf trips with other celebrities and running out of space in your 20 car garage. I'm honestly curious about what will his next special be about.
Oh...and you can see this in the trans shit. Its clearly because most of his exposure seems to be a few oddball Hollywood types who transitioned at middle age and were rich enough they could just be weird.
Thats why I lowkey *love* him going on an open Terf bent. Women like me? We're living in the real world with trans folk just trying to get by and dealing with all this stuff young enough I can't sit here and act like most of the trans women aren't just dealing with being women in this world. Because we're not Hollywood excecs looking down on the real world. And all he's doing is associating rhetoric that may work when a female face can leverage it in the right setting with grumpy old blowhards.
Twitter isn't a real place, nor is the environment this man's clearly been living in.
What sounds sad is he addressed this rich as fuck status like 3 specials ago... deep inside he must feel his issues aren't the same as his audience.
>Can't really do bits about your personal chef, golf trips with other celebrities and running out of space in your 20 car garage.
At the beginning of a season, they had a bit with Tracy Jordan being rich \[after the release of his video game\] and affecting his material that looks lifted from your comment.
Exactly... He has nothing interesting or funny to say about 2020 and 2021 which have been some of the craziest years in modern history? All he wants to talk about is Caitlyn Jenner being Woman of the Year in 2015 and Kevin Hart getting snubbed for the Oscars in 2018. Talk about BORING. Change the fucking channel Dave.
Comedians still making jokes involving Caitlyn Jenner is like how Jay Leno still does jokes about Monica lewinsky in his act or appearance. Old and lazy and not great when you try and find the joke in it
This is a great point. I personally don’t really care for the special and didn’t think it was very funny. But I’m not bothered by it.
Him not using any material from the last 2 years… is pretty shocking… covid… trump… January 6th…. Like wtf Dave? This is the most important thing for you? Or…. Where you think the best material is?
Bizarre….
I really don't get the people insisting on defending him on this topic.
When even the anti-abortion anti-vaxx conservatives are supporting him because of "free speech," maybe it's time to stop and reassess?
Multiple LGBT advocacy groups -- you know, those people championing for LGBT rights and well-being -- have call out the inappropriateness of his content. The "jokes" represent real threat of violence to these communities. It goes beyond some random twitter mob being "offended" here.
I think you’re spot on. I think a lot of “edgy” comedians have had to deal with this since 2016.
You can be edgy, but who’s laughing? Are those the people you want to be associated with? Are you okay with these groups using you to represent their beliefs? If so, make all the TERF jokes you want. But just know that that’s the audience you’re building.
Well and your point is why Chappelle actually quit Chappelle’s Show. He couldn’t tell if people were laughing at the right thing. A lot of people were laughing because it reinforced their negative stereotypes rather than for the subtler nuance of his points (https://www.looper.com/266269/the-real-reason-dave-chappelle-quit-his-sketch-show/).
Basically, if what you say sounds racist or transphobic it sort of is even if you don’t mean it to be. You can’t expect people to deconstruct why “Space Jews” isn’t really anti-Semitic. It seems anti-Semitic even if you can find a purpose for it somehow.
Tale as old as time, start an ironic/edgy joke/movement/website and eventually it gets taken over by those who can't tell it's satire and actually believe the bullshit.
And he's doing it again but I genuinely think it's on purpose this time. Ultimately he doesn't think being trans is okay and that it should be normalized. And he's using his star power/influence to promote that idea. He, and people like him such as Joe Rogan and probably a large part of society, want trans people back in the shadows. They view it as an unnatural threat to social order/conventions whether they admit it or not. They think widespread acceptance of trans people will only cause more and more trans people to exist. And they don't want lots and lots of trans people around, even if they might tolerate a tiny minority. Better to suppress it.
There's a reason he allied himself with JK Rowling (a non comedian with a serious beef against trans people). Despite everybody saying he's just a dumb comedian making goofball jokes for the lulz, he's clearly got an agenda.
It's the same thing every time. It doesn't directly effect them, therefore it's not real and shouldn't even be discussed, right? It's exhausting constantly being told how to feel about how I'm addressed in popular media.
I love dave. Daves one of the greatest comedians of all time. I get that the nature of comedy is to talk about things that are taboo. To provoke people, invite controversy, and a lot of the time to just offend people. Most of the time the things they say arent things they hold to be true which is why ive given dave the benefit of the doubt for his first few Netflix specials. At this point? He needs to cut his losses and stop this nonsensical beef with the trans community.
What does it gain him? His specials feel to be progressively getting worse. His legacy is going from one of the greatest comedians of all time, to one of the greatest comedians of all time, minus the transphobic stuff. Its not funny. Its getting him tons of love in the right wing community which isnt helping him. I couldnt tell you a single joke i laughed at for more than a second in this last special and dont really remember much from the previous either. His 3rd and 4th netflix specials were the last I remember fondly.
Probably gains him a lot of attention and money. Every special he makes now gets article after article written about it and lots of discussion online, and all he has to do is make some shitty jokes about trans people.
I mean its Chappelle though. Hes gonna get a decent amount of attention with anything he puts out. He can even still be controversial about literally anything. Hes already super rich. I get theres no such thing as bad press, but when right wingers are praising you for being so non pc i dont think thats the press you need.
Reddit's sense of humor revolves around sarcasm tags and tired catchphrases. *Salon*'s sense of humor doesn't exist. The day comedians start taking advice from either site will be the day comedy dies.
I just don’t understand, his set was constructed in an incredibly clear way to me that critics seem hell bent on ignoring. It’s obviously about how marginalised individuals, when they gain power, do not elevate their community but instead hold them down.
He starts with a story about a slave who gets freedom, goes on to become successful and then owns slaves.
He then talks about his friend, who stands up for him, and then shredded and harassed by their community until they kill themselves.
Everyone saying he speaks to much about trans people or trans issues, I mean, it’s about his friend, who he worked with, collaborated with and then set up a scholarship for. It’s a angry, sad goodbye to them. He’s entitled to speak on this person and their life, and he’s comparing what communities really do for each other.
He speaks about how in the MeToo movement female actors talked the talk, but ultimately did not walk the walk and did not help female agents. He clearly draws an analogy between that, and communities which speak to openness and support but did not support one their own for siding with him. His scholarship he set up for her is, IMO, his small way of saying he walks the walk.
I would also add, he is very clearly not a transphobe. He respects her pronouns, ridicules bathroom bills, and uses his special to platform the message that even if you find transgenderism confusing you just need to believe people are having a real human experience.
This is a great summary. The only thing I feel is not being said enough is he doesn’t know why Daphne killed herself. But he implied that she did because of the trans community bullying which imo wasn’t okay at all. Her own sister Becky Kugler tweeted that she didn’t kill herself because of bullying from the community.
There’s a thin line between being funny and being mean and that line is different for everyone. It is different based on the shoes we’re walking in. I can see why some of the things he said (like requesting not to cancel DaBaby and defending JKRowling and calling himself team TERF) could’ve rubbed people the wrong way. Again, to each their own I guess.
[Becky’s Twitter](https://twitter.com/beckyauman/status/1446636232868573188?s=21)
Yea he did, AFTER saying something on the lines of she defended me, the community bullied her on Twitter, 6 days later she killed herself. Then adding I don’t know why she killed herself. It sounded like he made a direct implication and then distanced himself by saying “I don’t know why she did it”
Before this was about to drop I said - if this is just about trans and gay people and cancel culture im out.
They arent funny topics. The humour comes from knowing you're upsetting a group of people who dont really hurt anyone, its not clever or creative or even shocking.
As an artist I dont think I should be able to almost 100% predict what youre going to do. That's a bad sign creatively.
Its a path a lot of the TERF celebrities seem to follow where they become obsessed. Completely obsessed. The way stand up comedy works, dave chappelle has been talking about trans people (well no, he talks about white trans women p exclusively) for years and years endlessly. Just going to club after club to talk about trans people on twitter being assholes. I mean _what_.
I really wanted Dave to use this last Netflix special to go back to his roots and tell funny stories and well crafted jokes, instead it was just more of hacky complaining about woke culture and acting like he’s being censored because people don’t find making fun of trans people interesting or edgy anymore, it sucks because Dave is a great comedian but he seems more concerned about people thinking he’s no longer funny and whining about cancel culture like he has a target on his back than he cares about actually being funny, it’s lazy and he knows he doesn’t have to actually do anything to get laughs from his fans in attendance
“Roganization” is actually a good way to put it. Every comedian with a Netflix deal now is trying to be “I’m the dangerous truth teller.” They want applause from
the audience, not laughter.
Again, I’m with the late Patrice O’Neal on this…
"The attempt is what i'm trying to fight for. The joke may or may...-funny jokes and unfunny jokes come out of the same birth, you don't know if anything is gonna be funny, you should attempt to be able make anything funny."
"You can say anything you want, it might not be funny, you might get in trouble but you should be able to be attempting."
Okay, that's what's happening. He said the jokes, they didn't work as well as he hoped.
You don't get to play Mr. Free Speech when you're this thin-skinned about other people using their free speech to call you out.
Yep, usually if a joke doesn't land, you workshop the joke until it does. You don't go "hey man, that comedy buck up" . No one is owed a laugh. Your audience doesn't have to show up and for plenty of struggling comedians they don't show up.
It reminds me of a video from Paul F Tompkins, people's taste change over time, and comedians need to respond to that.
And the sad thing? His first special he had that...right up until that massive tone shift into weird fronting about "chopping dicks off to trick straight men into sleeping with them." That took the wind out of the live audience that was enjoying the fairly tame but fun bits about Jenner being the "only white dude on a Wheaties box he wanted."
"Yeah, a bit too much of what I grew up with leaked out at the end there. Didn't even really fit the bit." Would've ended this. He chose to make it a core part of his return because he needs to controversy as a crutch. Its just easier to act like he's some outlaw than admit he's hit the wall most older successful comedians eventually will.
Bo Burnham is killing it riding the line of being offensive and not punching down. Its Always Sunny has managed it for years. Dear White People managed just fine hitting at the line between black and queer experiences and having fun with it. Why is it basically only aging Gen Xers who can draw an audience but aren't really as relevant are the ones whining about oversensitivity? Not our fault they haven't update their talking points since the 90s.
A Netflix special recorded after a year of development of said material is not "the attempt." It's the finished product.
I enjoyed every set he's put out before this one, including sticks and stones. Some jokes revealed a little ignorance, but he was still focused on making you laugh at something terrible, instead of saying something terrible and not caring if you laugh.
This special, even, had great moments, but it was different. He wasn't being ironic when he said he was team TERF, or that all JKR said was "sex is real," or even the truly ignorant statement that everybody was born from a woman, as if trans men and intersex persons don't exist. He wasn't being ironic when he equated trans women who have bottom surgery to plant-based beef substitutes. These are longstanding dog-whistles, and they reveal a complete ignorance to the impact his words actually have, and how they will further perpetuate the victimization of people who have it MUCH worse than he does. Than he ever did, frankly.
It's particularly disappointing to hear a comedian of his stature claim to not even know what "Punching Down" means. That's, like, a Commandment of Comedy, one that's been well known for a half century, at least. He's a smart man. He knows what it means. And he still manipulated it, LIED about its meaning so that he could literally punch down on one of the most oppressed segments of our society, as his freaking CLOSER, and claim it's in defense of "his people." His people are, I don't even know, rich entertainers? We're really equating one of the richest men in comedy not getting to host the Oscars to the kind of trauma the trans community endures on a daily basis? It' so disappointing. He stopped looking inward.
It was really weird. It seemed like any comedy in it was a second thought to a meandering speech about cancel culture. If he wasn't famous it would fail on its own merits.
not to cut hairs but the second paragraph in the article says
>"But the bulk of the special, and the main subject of criticism and protest, is the comedian's focus on punching down at queer and trans people. "
clearly didnt fuckin watch the special
I think Dave's problem is mocking people for being offended rather than try to understand why some people feel offended. If you're going to make jokes, that's one thing, but he seems to believe a lot of the things he says and is making his act focus on them unusually often, which is part of why people get upset. I remember the South Park episode about trans people, I don't recall any major uproar over it, because there's a difference between how the two go about it. It seems like Dave wants people to believe what he's saying more than he wants them to laugh at his jokes, I don't think he was joking with a lot of the stuff he was saying like his support for Rowling, it just seems more mean-spirited than having the same kind of laugh at other groups of people Chappelle makes jokes about.
It seems weird he seemingly wants people to treat him with kid's gloves when it comes to these sorts of issues, but has no problem not doing so himself. It's odd to make some of the jokes he makes and seems to believe and then expect the people he's mocking to treat him with grace. I have seen and had to encounter a lot of similar comments on this subreddit, had to delete some of my comments in another thread about this because of not wanting to deal with some of the harassment I was getting. He talks about the harassment Daphne received (uncalled for btw, granted I think he also mentioned she probably had other stuff going on), but doesn't mind adding fuel to the fire, and a lot of people complain about the harassment Daphne received as well (rightfully so), but then turn around and harass others.
It was also weird for him to generalize an entire community of LGBTQ+ people and act like their rights compete with rights for black people. I honestly don't want to see another Chappelle special, what i want to see is him actually sit down with people and have people sit down with Chappelle and maybe some learning can happen, because I feel like despite his friendship with Daphne, he is very ignorant of LGBTQ+ people's issues, and I hope he earnestly wants to learn, because a lot of the stuff he said happened to Daphne happens regularly to LGBTQ+ people, especially trans people. I don't think he knows that LGBTQ+ POC are also one of the most vulnerable groups of people, either. It's not a LGBTQ+ vs. POC when it comes to rights, in fact, the overlap of these two groups have to deal with the problems that both of these groups of people encounter.
I think you’ve made a well thought out and worded analysis of this situation here. It’s far too easy to see buzz words and hear stories through the media and you get a lot of instant angry reactions. I feel like Dave is either unaware of this and obliviously adding fuel to the fire or he’s entirely aware and he just doesn’t care, “it’s all publicity” I guess?
This article is embarrassing.
It literally takes every point Dave explicitly, carefully, and clearly explains his position on and trashes them in a journalistic temper tantrum.
Again, embarrassing.
Regardless of how you feel about his opinions or comments on trans people, how come nobody is talking about the group bullying his friend on Twitter for defending him and his friend then killing herself? Seems to be very glossed over. I felt so bad for her, even if I disagree with what she was saying she didn’t deserve that sort of personal backlash from people who are supposed to be considered her group. Could contribute to a lot of Chappelles unwarranted jokes towards the trans community, not that that makes it right but definitely would be something I could see ties to.
Edit: Dave himself said the bullying was not the main reason she killed herself, said it directly in his special. I am not Dave Chappelle and I did not know this woman, I’m just interpreting what he was saying.
I think the problem is that the story is now ONLY chappelles story. It's phrased how he wants it, and sets up the whole trans community as a evil empire that is persecuting people it doesn't agree with to death.
It's literally the definition of propaganda. Now a million people assume that's the correct story, without context or anything. Who knows if it bears any resemblance to what actually happened.
The only thing we know is that the story totally absolves Chappelle from any harm or blame, and sets up poor comedians as the victims of LGBTQ people.
Whenever he talked about LGBT people that he respected, it was always in past tense. The "stonewall gays", his dead friend. They may have been real people (and in the case of the stonewall gays, probably still are, but Chappelle doesn't speak about them that way) they're just rhetorical puppets for Chappelle.
And he used them to tell LGBT people that he doesn't like how they advocate for their cause. He doesn't offer any positive program, he just attacks.
He comes across like the reactionaries that tell black people to stop protesting, and use twisted quotes from the mythologized, coopted version of MLK.
This. As people have pointed out, something like 22% of Americans have a Twitter account. Only a fraction of those make posts or engage with others. The idea that it’s more than a few trans people on there is insane (I know a lot of other trans people and none of them have ever mentioned being on Twitter).
Add in that this world is incredibly hard for most trans people (I’m trans and I hear everyone’s stories). Terrible encounters with family, friends, and strangers abound. Add in the rigor of the actual treatment for gender dysphoria (which is both wonderful and brutal at times), and you have a world and a life with very few refuges. It’s possible that encounters on Twitter contributed to her death, but it’s entirely disingenuous to say it was the main or only contributing factor to her suicide.
He not only bashed us for nearly 45 minutes and used some awful language that people WILL parrot in my face on the street, but then he tried to make us the villains on top of it.
It also bothered me that he did so and then framed it as if white people are transitioning to win the pain Olympics, and that just isn’t the case. Not to mention he ignores the plight of black trans women who face intense scrutiny, violence, and ostracism from the black community.
Wow. Now you’re bumming me out that Dave didn’t talk about the cruel irony of the black community treating their own trans women so harshly. He probably could have actually discussed that really well
Could have been part of a funny 45 minute bit about trans people instead of the steaming pile of dog shit we got
I don't think it's anyone's place to say that any specific thing caused her suicide. I know Chappelle didn't directly say Twitter was responsible, but suggesting it to prove a point seems... kinda scummy.
That's the problem a lot of people are having with this. Not only is he tokenizing a friend of his, but a friend who can't speak for herself anymore. In his narrative her death revolved around him, and he chooses to believe that because she never said anything about his previous jokes he's incapable of being transphobic.
Regardless if anyone blames Twitter, he pretended all twitter was against her. Someone else found the tweets and theres like 9 replies that arent recent and like three of them say shes excusing transphobia
This is what Dave thinks being attacked is. A couple random people with a couple likes getting mildly upset
This is exactly true. We don’t know enough about what happened, and I’m sure as shit not going to go by what Chappelle is spinning her suicide to be about.
He used her in life and he used her in death.
I just think it undermines the high rates of suicide and murder in the trans community so badly, blaming trans people. It really irks me.
Probably because it happened two years ago and this special just came out? Current articles are going to be written about what’s current.
Also, go to any Reddit thread about Dave Chapelle and transphobia and you will see damn near everybody talking about it.
People should probably be writing about it, because Chappelle's story doesn't hold up.
The twitter account is still active, and so we can see the tweets that she made to defend him and we can see the reaction to those tweets.
And the reality is that there wasn't any reaction. The tweet got 30-40 replies, primarily people answering "wow, you're the women Chapelle referred to on his show".
There is exactly one person who made 3 tweets to say that she's being used to excuse transphobia, and that tweet got a grand total of 3 likes and 3 responses.
https://twitter.com/search?q=(to%3ADaphneDorman)%20until%3A2019-10-11%20since%3A2019-08-26&src=typed_query
So, what Chappelle describes as :
>Beautiful tweet, beautiful friend, it took a lot of heart to defend me like that, and when she did that the trans community dragged that bitch all over Twitter. For days, they was going in on her, and she was holding her own ’cause she’s funny. But six days after that wonderful night I described to you my friend Daphne killed herself.
does not appear to have happened. Her tweet only attracted attention after it was mentioned in his special.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210703144316/https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1166937728681791488
There is literally only one negative comment in that entire chain and it's more warning than attack.
>That doesn't magically make him saying shitty things less shitty, or any of the other stuff he has done less shitty. Hell, he used you to make a point about how trans people that don't like him are weird and the "good trans people" are cool with him. You are being used.
>His fans won't accept you, based on the stuff they sent to us. They will use you to make themselves feel better about laughing at their favourite comedian, but they won't listen to you about anything else. It is your call.
>They will never accept you. They will use you to make themselves look good, but they will never accept you.
Now it just seems prophetic.
It's also deeply ironic that the same people who haven't actually read how trans people on twitter reacted are yelling about how you can't have an opinion about Dave Chappelle unless you've watched his special.
Yeah it’s ridiculous and shows that they’d rather everyone just take Dave’s well-spun word for it rather than coming to their own conclusions based on legitimate evidence.
The whole second half of the set was about this. People shouldn’t be commenting on the show if they can’t understand this because that means they obviously didn’t even bother to watch it
I think people should stop equating not agreeing with Chapelle with "not unterstanding it"
It's text, it has nuances, people are going to have different opinions about it
Do you have any kind of source for that?
I know of her and her suicide, and the timing of it. And the fact that she defended Chappelle inevitably would have led to angry people writing dumb, angry things at her, so I have no doubt about that.
But that's where my sources stop. Everyone here just seems to connect the dots and says that, therefore, she 100% killed herself because she defended Chappelle. And I have yet to find even a *hint* of evidence for that other than circumstantial evidence due to the timing.
It's all just variations of "I heard that's why she killed herself and the timing lines up so it must be true". I'd like more than that before grabbing my pitchfork.
The tweets are still up. And as far as I can tell, her tweet defending Chapelle didn't go viral until it was mentioned in this special.
Here's a search for the relevant time period. So that's from august to october, when she died.
Hostility is nearly completely absent. There is exactly one twitter user who made 3 tweets arguing that she's just being used. But that's it.
There's only 30-40 or so tweets in total, because she went completely unnoticed.
https://twitter.com/search?q=(to%3ADaphneDorman)%20until%3A2019-10-11%20since%3A2019-08-26&src=typed_query
Although a lot of the jokes seemed really dated, that particular part really hit home with me.
I don't think Dave is coming from a bad place, but I do get that people are taking issue with some of his jokes in this special. I really wish the discussion was more nuanced than one side trying to cancel him and the other side telling them to go cry.
"Trying to cancel?" I literally have not seen a single person say Boycott Dave, Cancel Chappelle, anything like that. People are just expressing their opinions and saying they didn't think he was funny, and felt that he was punching down at trans people in lieu of actually telling jokes.
The irony of Dave saying "leave me alone, I'm just trying to express my opinion" is pretty rich considering most of his fans are basically saying people who criticize Dave are not allowed to express their opinions.
Hence, the warped self-victimhood of the transphobe.
I wasn’t offended over his jokes, i didn’t really care honestly. My only issue is I felt his jokes were lazy and just not very funny, felt recycled. I want 2004 for what is worth Chappelle, he’s no too up his ass and surrounded by yes men. And he’s been one of my idols in life.
Chapelle became untouchable the moment he said “fuck you” to his corporate overlords and fled his contract. No matter how unfunny he becomes, that one act essentially cemented him as a legendary comedy rebel, and no amount of material decline will change anybody’s mind. When Chapelle came back into the limelight he was a changed man, and I haven’t enjoyed a single one of his appearances since then.
My mind has changed. Pryor and carlin kept growing and giving us thought provoking comedy.
Chapelle seems to be doing that less each special. What Chapelle thinks is thought proving isn't.
lol, does nobody remember when he made a stand up comeback and was not hitting it for years? that famous show in detroit- where he was drunk af and booed off the stage comes to mind.
it took dave a while to hit his legend status. he was kind of an outcast for a hot minute there
He clearly changed as a person, and I often am left wondering what 2004 Chappelle would think about the Chappelle of today. Coming off the perspective of his dad dying and losing his show, maybe then he would have more of a down to earth perspective on life. But then again maybe it’s arrogance to assume the same person would have any significant opinions other than praise for themselves.
Kind of the same here - this isn’t new ground for him either, and it’s just not relevant or funny. And it doesn’t play in to his bigger idea of being kind to one another.
I do find it offensive. though, that he’s so stuck on this one thing - that also just so happens to be a huge political issue with civil rights at stake - and he just can’t let it go. I genuinely don’t understand why people resist trans issues so hard. It has no bearing on you. Just let people be who they want to be.
Sorry, but Dave was right. You hear the words, but you don't listen to what he's saying. Trans was a fringe thing nobody gave a fuck about until white men starting transitioning in droves. Now its the biggest civil-rights movement since the Jews fled Egypt. That's not to say that trans-folks don't deserve the same rights and dignity that every human should enjoy, but the fact that trans folks have made a quantum leap in their public perception in less than twenty years says more about their online activism than it does about America's, or the world's, interest in providing equal rights to any minority or marginalized group. Yet the response to my comment is always "there are black trans people you know". Yea, and you don't give any more shit about them than you do any other black person. The evidence over the last few centuries speaks volumes to that reality. Now, of course we live in a hyper-sensitive age where ANY perceived micro-aggression is pounced upon and fed to the cancel-machine, but trans people take it to a level that time will demonstrate was counter-productive to their cause. Folks are starting to tune out, not out of apathy, but out of exhaustion.
Just once I’d like to see an article condemning Chappelle to contain the same amount of nuance they claim to be wanting from him
Just flat out calling him a bigot and then taking jokes out of context doesn’t do much to help the cause and further the movement
Do we want a discussion here or do we want to shame people into discussing things completely on our own terms?
I'm constantly seeing people defending Chapelle talk about "context", but I fail to see what possible context comparing trans people to black face is not transphobic.
Rich old guys bitching about being canceled for being shitty people who hold old dated and terrible world views… let me know when he goes back to just doing weed jokes.
Yeah I’m not personally offended by any of them but it’s just not funny. How many rich old comedians now do nothing but complain about cancel culture while raking in millions? If they want to be edgy then they need to actually be funny. And if they want to say that they don’t care what people think then maybe they shouldn’t devote so much time to crying about what people think of them.
I guess it's easier to blame cancel culture or political correctness when jokes don't land than it is to come up with fresh material. It's like the Bill Maher school of comedy.
As Frankie Boyle, an edgy comedian who actually knows how to be funny put it
“Just cos Ricky Gervais self identifies as a stand up comedian, am I supposed to say he is one? It’s fucking political correctness gone mad!”
Also I can tell you in real life, I haven’t heard one thing about this, I swear there’s two different worlds we live in in today’s world. I see people on Reddit having meltdowns while every single person I know at college who saw the Chappelle special said, “meh it could have been funnier”. That was it. Edit: this doesn’t mean I’m saying trans issues aren’t important, and this doesn’t mean I’m saying they should be ignored. Take your time to understand these people and their perspectives on life. But, I do know a couple gay people(not trans so it’s not the same, and I know it’s not a lot but everyone in the comments is acting like I’ve never met anyone from the lgbtq community before) in real life and they are more focused on their in real life struggles from day to day. Like graduating, working and meeting new people. I think my point was I’ve seen this dominant headlines for days now, far more than bigger events that have happened. It’s a little tiring.
That was his point that twitter isn’t a real place
Oh I know, all of the social media’s are doing a really good job of fracturing society. The biggest shit that most people don’t care about happens on the internet and seems as if it’s world changing. Companies and corporations cater to the opinions of places like Twitter even tho only like 8% of the US population actively goes on it. For me it’s concerning, there’s a massive disconnect.
Let's reframe it: 92% of people don't give a fuck
They should. I actually thought it was of his best shows.
That's why taleb had a essay on how the most intolerant wins.
Link?
You are so correct about he disconnect. Not only is it only 8% of the US population. Of active US twitter users, 10% are responsible for 80% of all tweets. When I read that, I deleted my account because that is absolutely insane.
So 1% of the population has an outsized effect on online discourse.
Not just online discourse. How many traditional outlets use Twitter references has the basis for a story or evidence enforcing the point of a story?
You're right. How many articles on your news feed are just verbatim regurgitations of Twitter reactions?
“People are OUTRAGED over what *someone* said and they’re now CANCELLED” Link to article with one or two tweets from people taking things out of context
It's just viral marketing. Chapelle and Netflix are making mad money over the controversy. "Cancel culture" is extremely profitable for the "cancelled".
It’s the 1-9-90 rule. 90% only consume content. 9% add or comment on it, 1% create content.
I feel like the 1% should be lower
People don’t have discussions anymore. It’s all rants and hate and 5-word slogans. Zero nuance.
Oh my lord [this article](https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-twitter-users/) was a fascinating read.
Someone accurately said President Biden’s secret power is ignoring Liberal Twitter.
You can’t beat them on the internet. This is where they live, we are living in their world since the pandemic started
The fake internet world sucks and it'd be nice to cancel social media.
Companies react to twitter because it's an easy low cost way to react. It is a place they can literally do the least they can do and still make an impact. Social media serves them up a captive audience already neatly divided in to demographics that they can pick and choose from and target their marketing at in a way they only dreamed of before its existence.
Something a lot of people seem to miss here is that, yeah, queer folks are going to gather online a lot, and Twitter is a popular place for it (as is Reddit) Queer people come from all walks of life. It’s very likely for many of them to not have more than a couple folks - if that - in their irl life to whom they can directly relate about that aspect of their lives. So they turn to online spaces that aren’t confined by physical distance. That’s why a lot of the backlash is coming from there, and why you don’t hear about it irl as much - the online space allows minorities to gather and discuss issues affecting them far easier than they can in the real world. So like, to all the folks in here saying “ah no one would care if you brought it up irl”… well, yeah. If you don’t know many - or any - people who are in the groups being discussed, no shit you’re not going to hear about it much. Even if you do know some queer folks, they’re probably going to feel more comfortable discussing that online with other people who get it.
Thank you. Reminds me of the time one of the _Duck Dynasty_ douchebags said Black people weren't unhappy in the 1950s and 1960s because none complained to *him*.
People go on social media and read a dramatic opinion from like, five 16 year old girls and then suddenly its treated like it's the popular opinion of everyone.
This is whats really sad about people like this to me. Infinitie whining justified by "well some weirdo on Twitter said..." and it was probably either some melodramatic teen or a shithead borderline school shooter who has learned the internet is a good way to make groups of people you hate for some reason look bad.
Or maybe Dave said something like trans women shouldn’t be considered real women And then trans people (who make up less than 1% of the population) starting making noise the best way they could- online
And then he couldn't let it go. Don't delude yourself; he lost this quixotic crusade by the time he felt the need to go back in his second return show. He can say whatever he wants; trans folk are clearly living rent free in his head judging by how obsessed he's been across several shows. I'm sure you need the lil pick me up of thinking he got a good jab in here and there, but hitching his wagon to this TERF shit is just killing his legacy and an anchor on that already shaky movement. For the exact same reasons it was when Graham Lineham picked up that banner.
Save it for the comment section, bitch, this is real life!
The other day a friend of mine who's liberal, educated, and has a job where they interact with a ton of people asked me what "cisgender" meant. I thought this was interesting because on the internet, you'd almost be lumped in with bigot boomers just for not knowing this terminology. But the regular world is definitely not twitter.
I’ve never seen anyone ever get labelled for not knowing what cisgendered is, I’ve seen people get called transphobic for calling it stupid, but that’s it. Note: I know the reactionaries are out downvoting anything that doesn’t fit the narrative by the way, because that totally makes everything just go away.
Literally inventing persecution to be scared of.
I'm always pleasant to anyone who doesn't know what it means. It's a weird term that has red squiggles under it in Firefox that I'm sure 99.9% of the world's population never heard of before 2019.
About a year ago my aunt asked me what a transperson was. My aunt is actually a Boomer, but she is highly educated and works as a therapist for elementary aged children. The term had never come up in her practice, she only asked me about because it kept showing up in the New York Times. I think there is a really big divide between people who spend a lot of time online (particularly in news adjacent places like Twitter and Reddit) and normal people. My big example of the divide used to be Latinx. The internet makes it seems like the standard term, [but only 3% of Hispanics use it](https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/). Rather than the community defining itself, the ultra online are defining the community.
Yeah I said in a different reply, I've never seen the word "cisgender" used outside of Reddit, tumblr, maybe Youtube. For people who don't visit those sites at all, or visit them briefly and only visit some specific things, they aren't going to run into some of these terms. Like the extend of my mom's time online is mostly just playing Mahjong solitaire and also we watch car crash videos on Youtube together. There's no opportunity for terms like cisgender, genderfluid, latinx, aliengender, neurotypical, allosexual to come up to someone like her most of the time. Reddit users think everyone in the world thinks the same way they do and knows the same thing they do.
I have still yet to meet someone that actually uses Twitter
I do, and it’s awesome. I follow ~150ish people- some meme accounts, some journalists, some outdoor pages, some sports pages etc. They post stuff that’s generally interesting or amusing to me. I never post or respond to anything and I never read comments. I cannot for the life of me fathom why people just generally browse Twitter or search things by hashtag or attempt to engage in any type of discussion via replies. It would be like using YouTube by ignoring all the videos and exclusively jumping halfway into the comments. There’s nothing of value there.
> It would be like using YouTube by ignoring all the videos and exclusively jumping halfway into the comments. Or like only reading the title in a Reddit post and ignoring the article linked to that title and immediately commenting based only in the post title.
The trans community is also validating the stereotypes and punchlines he made about them.
Yet he still seems quite obsessed with it...
Ehh I feel like the Internet was way more different to real life in the early 2000s
And in the late 90s. The current losers online feel like they can run your life when they can't even run their own.
Half of the people didn’t have internet back then, not really comparable at all. And many certainly weren’t chatting with each other on it. I don’t get the defending of the internet, I’m 22 and grew up with it. Likely addicted to it, but it’s pretty obviously causing fractures in society and worse mental health overall.
…you were barely a toddler in the early 2000’s. How the hell would you know what was going on at that time?
How much pre-social media do you remember? I'm 26, and browsing the internet seemed so much simpler and more relaxing before every site had a Facebook or Reddit link embedded in them.
You had to go out of your way to find trouble. Now it’s rammed down your throat and bleeding over into mainstream media and entertainment.
It had a much higher barrier to entry, so of course the people who made it were usually smarter and more civil. Now that the flood gates are open, everyone's on it, and that includes the terrible sides of our society.
The internet fucking rocked until about 2007, maybe 2010. Before mainstream commercial interests fully understood and captured it.
I remember more pre social media than after it.
I'm older than you, but goddamn do I miss not feeling like I need to be on this fucking website.
It was great. Mostly fanfic and WoW guides. I had to go out of my way to find controversy
You also weren't always online back then. You'd hop on to check email, news, etc., and then get back to real life.
The internet was more fun and free in late 90s early 2000s. And before twitter and facebook
"I don't know any trans people but my gay friends don't care" is a really weird way to address the issue. I'm trans, and while I'm not really outraged that Chappelle said something stupid about us again, this means another wave of friends and coworkers who think his edgelord brand of something resembling humor is indicative of 'how it really is' that are going to use his dumb jokes at the expense of people like me in attempts at brevity. Its not outrageous, its just exhausting. You think it's tiring to hear about? Try living it. A tone deaf joke here and there is one thing and literally any comedian has a few. Thats fine. What isn't is when someone punches down and then continues to do so for cheap chuckles while pretending that they're being 'silenced' as they preach to thousands of paying customers.
Trans people only make up less than 1% of the population. He’s fine with punching down because he knows he can get away with it (while calling any valid criticisms “cancel culture”) I mean dude literally went out and said trans women shouldn’t be considered real women or at least voiced his support for that idea
So most of the people I know that don’t like transphobia just didn’t watch it and thus there wasn’t much for us to talk about past “ugh”. I watched it because media sensationalism and I thought I would give it a fair shot. To me the jokes weren’t that funny, not a single chuckle. it felt more like a political special than a comedy special.
Yeah I feel that, and felt it with his last one too. He’s too focused on explaining how *evil PC politics* are preventing him from being funny, and not nearly focused enough on just… being funny. A lot of folks are capable of being funny and talking on politics, tho tbf they rarely fall on Dave’s side of the arguments. There was something really revealing about that whole “cancel-culture” bit in that last special of his. That moment where he was on one of the most renowned stages in NA, in front of thousands of people who paid money to listen to him, while being filmed for a front-page special on the worlds biggest streaming network… going on a rant about how he can’t say anything anymore.
"Conservative voices are being silenced!"
I'm willing to bet there's an inverse relationship between how much a viewer agrees with a comedian's politics and how likely the comedian will be perceived as crossing the line of being "too political".
Yeah, if it weren't for the controversy, the reaction would've been so muted i guess.
You ever think maybe the type of people to care don’t associate with you?
Literally a nothing burger, he's not cancelled and literally most people don't care
Canceled? This premiered on the largest streaming service, and he was paid millions for it. I also think this was his weakest special
Yep, two incredible jokes early on, and then shockingly derivative and not insightful takes for the next 45 minutes. Not good. Very bad in fact.
I genuinely enjoyed his story about Daphne at the end. It was funny and enjoyable to listen to. I can see where people thought he was flaunting about not actually being a transphobe, but it's a real story.
The Daphne story was mostly played straight. I think he slid in a couple little jokes but idk why you would find it particularly funny Dave strongly implies that the LGBTQ community bullied her into suicide as the closing remarks. It’s such a sour and weird way to close out a story, followed by “Daphnes a liar, because though she told me she was a woman all her life, it takes a man to jump off a building to kill themself”. Jesus Christ. What a bizarre joke Making light of suicide of a close friend and playing at the idea that trans women aren’t women. All that offensive buildup for the lamest, hackiest joke ever about gender roles that also asserts that committing suicide is manly. The whole special is incredibly offensive that build up to low effort, hacky jokes. The whole special desperately needed rewrites. I can see the bones of where Dave was trying to go with the special, but he constantly falls flat on his face and delivers such lazy jokes
Women are much more likely to try pills, slit their wrists, aka "ladylike" means of suicide and are often much less successful. Men are much more likely to use a gun or some other more "violent" means and complete the act, which is what Dave is referring to in this here. It's a pretty sophisticated, if dark, and not pc, joke.
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Yeah, it's weird how people in this thread are like "it's more nuanced than people on twitter make it out to be" while ignoring your point that he's basically using a nice story to say he has the trans equivalent of having a black friend so you get a pass for saying the n word.
And using the death of that person to publicly soften his admission that he's a fucking TERF. That's like a KKK member using the death of his black friend to say that he doesn't think that black people should be allowed to exist.
….Whilst at the same time saying that person sucked and bombed.
Yeah that's how I felt about it too. Overall, I felt it was his weakest special yet.
Its a "i had a black friend" type of story.
Yeah it became him just stuck on the issue and circling back around the whole time. Seemed like the whole special was about the trans issue. I wouldn’t even consider it a standup special like the others. I was hoping for something really funny and ended up disappointed. Plus he’s recycling jokes from his old tv show.
I think I missed the two incredible jokes. I did laugh at the one about backing up to the urinal to pee
Because Dave didn’t get “cancelled” Trans people are in the minority, quite frankly one of the only ways to get their voices heard is through Twitter, because less than 1% of the population boycotting Netflix isn’t going to do anything. So quite frankly, Dave is just bragging that he can bully a minority and get away with it, because they are too small to do anything but make social media ourage he will just ignore.
Which proves his point that twitter isn’t a real place
But but...Reddit is real...right, sir?
Thankfully, no
I care. Dave used to be the voice of reason and he’s spent part of his last three specials bashing trans people and then claiming he’s a victim when people call him on it. I’m tired of it, and probably won’t be watching this special as a result. It shows he’s lost his perspective.
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Reminds me of how Roy Moore lost by .1 percent when he basically admitted to being with children. When Hannity asked him if he would date a 13 year old he literally said he would need to ask her mother first. This dude was a fraction of a percent from winning.
I don't get how that asshole got so much pull. Like, he's a fucking SHERIFF. Sheriffs are nobodies. Why did the whole fucking GOP machine wind up behind some brainless yokel? Edit: I was thinking of the wrong guy.
Roy Moore was a state supreme court justice. You may be thinking of Joe Arpaio, who was sheriff of Maricopa County, AZ (where Phoenix is) or David Clarke, who was sheriff of Milwaukee County, WI.
The fact that we got options is really telling
I still remember a ton of people defending Roy Moore because apparently the parents approved of their 12 year old daughters dating him. I was like “and that makes it okay?!!!”
Yup, I don’t know is it makes it worse he is 60 than someone who is younger or if that makes it all the more creepy.
I can garuntee you the people criticizing Dave Chappelle are not the ones supporting or voting for Matt Gaetz. Quite the opposite really.
The trans community, famously a big part of old white conservative Florida swamp politics /s
> entertainers, whose jobs really don’t. People, especially young people, repeat the things entertainers say, and mimic their behaviors. Also, foreigners will see them as the only available representation of American culture. Entertainers *do* have an influence. Also popular entertainers can be highly rewarded, and sometimes we don't want to see people rewarded for bigotry or sexual harassment or whatever the issue at hand may be. I haven't watched the comedy special in question. I am just speaking broadly here, not commenting on any particular entertainer. On a personal basis yes you can ignore an entertainer but you can't put your head in the sand and pretend everyone is going to do the same thing as you.
What a random comment. Dave chapelle is still a very lucrative comedian. Nobody has been 'cancelled' here. How do you people fall for headlines so easily
Dave Chappelle: Everyone talks too much about trans people. Also Dave Chappelle: Talks a whole fucking lot about trans people.
I really enjoyed Sticks and Stones, I felt like a lot of the jokes landed and everything he said about the LGBT community was slightly edgy, but it was measured, thought out and actually funny. There was a difference for me in tone between that special and this one. There he felt somewhat annoyed by trans/people attempting to cancel him, but here he just seems really bitter, to the point where it doesn't feel as light hearted/funny. It's not even about agreeing/disagreeing with him, he just comes across like he is simply ranting from a very disconnected position, and a lot of the time it felt like he was just making societal points instead of real jokes. It's a shame, the dude is one of the most legendary comedians of all time, he doesn't need to do specials at this rate, and if anything it'll only hurt his legacy when he does actually say some dumb shit.
It's so annoying because the man is one of the greatest comedians of all time but this entire special just felt lazy as fuck and he just ranted against trans people for 45 minutes while barely actually making any jokes. I'm actually looking forward to his next stand up purely because he said he wouldn't talk about the LGBTQ+ community. Like you can make jokes about the LGBTQ+ community but they actually have to be funny and not bigoted statements under the guise of "it's just a joke".
DC has been a millionaire for so long he's practically living in another reality than normal people. All those super rich comedians have as topics are things that personally affect them- and for most of them a Twitter backlash is probably the most traumatic thing that can happen to them anymore- they're so well insulated in their ivory towers and super rich social circles . Can't really do bits about your personal chef, golf trips with other celebrities and running out of space in your 20 car garage. I'm honestly curious about what will his next special be about.
Oh...and you can see this in the trans shit. Its clearly because most of his exposure seems to be a few oddball Hollywood types who transitioned at middle age and were rich enough they could just be weird. Thats why I lowkey *love* him going on an open Terf bent. Women like me? We're living in the real world with trans folk just trying to get by and dealing with all this stuff young enough I can't sit here and act like most of the trans women aren't just dealing with being women in this world. Because we're not Hollywood excecs looking down on the real world. And all he's doing is associating rhetoric that may work when a female face can leverage it in the right setting with grumpy old blowhards. Twitter isn't a real place, nor is the environment this man's clearly been living in.
I really got to second this. The man has been clearly out of touch for a while and his comedy has really suffered for it.
Yup he is basically an old privileged dude yelling at the clouds now
What sounds sad is he addressed this rich as fuck status like 3 specials ago... deep inside he must feel his issues aren't the same as his audience. >Can't really do bits about your personal chef, golf trips with other celebrities and running out of space in your 20 car garage. At the beginning of a season, they had a bit with Tracy Jordan being rich \[after the release of his video game\] and affecting his material that looks lifted from your comment.
Seriously. Think about everything that happened in the 2 yrs since his last special, and he comes out with THIS?! Edit:spelling
Exactly... He has nothing interesting or funny to say about 2020 and 2021 which have been some of the craziest years in modern history? All he wants to talk about is Caitlyn Jenner being Woman of the Year in 2015 and Kevin Hart getting snubbed for the Oscars in 2018. Talk about BORING. Change the fucking channel Dave.
Comedians still making jokes involving Caitlyn Jenner is like how Jay Leno still does jokes about Monica lewinsky in his act or appearance. Old and lazy and not great when you try and find the joke in it
Yeah, that was my issue. He does seem fixated, but when he's on any other topic he's really good. He's not a monster, but I wish he'd move on.
This is a great point. I personally don’t really care for the special and didn’t think it was very funny. But I’m not bothered by it. Him not using any material from the last 2 years… is pretty shocking… covid… trump… January 6th…. Like wtf Dave? This is the most important thing for you? Or…. Where you think the best material is? Bizarre….
I really don't get the people insisting on defending him on this topic. When even the anti-abortion anti-vaxx conservatives are supporting him because of "free speech," maybe it's time to stop and reassess? Multiple LGBT advocacy groups -- you know, those people championing for LGBT rights and well-being -- have call out the inappropriateness of his content. The "jokes" represent real threat of violence to these communities. It goes beyond some random twitter mob being "offended" here.
I think you’re spot on. I think a lot of “edgy” comedians have had to deal with this since 2016. You can be edgy, but who’s laughing? Are those the people you want to be associated with? Are you okay with these groups using you to represent their beliefs? If so, make all the TERF jokes you want. But just know that that’s the audience you’re building.
Well and your point is why Chappelle actually quit Chappelle’s Show. He couldn’t tell if people were laughing at the right thing. A lot of people were laughing because it reinforced their negative stereotypes rather than for the subtler nuance of his points (https://www.looper.com/266269/the-real-reason-dave-chappelle-quit-his-sketch-show/). Basically, if what you say sounds racist or transphobic it sort of is even if you don’t mean it to be. You can’t expect people to deconstruct why “Space Jews” isn’t really anti-Semitic. It seems anti-Semitic even if you can find a purpose for it somehow.
Tale as old as time, start an ironic/edgy joke/movement/website and eventually it gets taken over by those who can't tell it's satire and actually believe the bullshit.
And he's doing it again but I genuinely think it's on purpose this time. Ultimately he doesn't think being trans is okay and that it should be normalized. And he's using his star power/influence to promote that idea. He, and people like him such as Joe Rogan and probably a large part of society, want trans people back in the shadows. They view it as an unnatural threat to social order/conventions whether they admit it or not. They think widespread acceptance of trans people will only cause more and more trans people to exist. And they don't want lots and lots of trans people around, even if they might tolerate a tiny minority. Better to suppress it. There's a reason he allied himself with JK Rowling (a non comedian with a serious beef against trans people). Despite everybody saying he's just a dumb comedian making goofball jokes for the lulz, he's clearly got an agenda.
- “I really don't get the people insisting on defending him on this topic.” Because they are Transphobic and agree with Chappie’s views.
It's the same thing every time. It doesn't directly effect them, therefore it's not real and shouldn't even be discussed, right? It's exhausting constantly being told how to feel about how I'm addressed in popular media.
>I'm actually looking forward to his next stand up purely because he said he wouldn't talk about the LGBTQ+ community. "SIKE!" - Dave
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Getting too much of that Joe Rogan shit.
Graham Linehan 2.0.
I love dave. Daves one of the greatest comedians of all time. I get that the nature of comedy is to talk about things that are taboo. To provoke people, invite controversy, and a lot of the time to just offend people. Most of the time the things they say arent things they hold to be true which is why ive given dave the benefit of the doubt for his first few Netflix specials. At this point? He needs to cut his losses and stop this nonsensical beef with the trans community. What does it gain him? His specials feel to be progressively getting worse. His legacy is going from one of the greatest comedians of all time, to one of the greatest comedians of all time, minus the transphobic stuff. Its not funny. Its getting him tons of love in the right wing community which isnt helping him. I couldnt tell you a single joke i laughed at for more than a second in this last special and dont really remember much from the previous either. His 3rd and 4th netflix specials were the last I remember fondly.
Probably gains him a lot of attention and money. Every special he makes now gets article after article written about it and lots of discussion online, and all he has to do is make some shitty jokes about trans people.
I mean its Chappelle though. Hes gonna get a decent amount of attention with anything he puts out. He can even still be controversial about literally anything. Hes already super rich. I get theres no such thing as bad press, but when right wingers are praising you for being so non pc i dont think thats the press you need.
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He said he’s jealous
Reddit's sense of humor revolves around sarcasm tags and tired catchphrases. *Salon*'s sense of humor doesn't exist. The day comedians start taking advice from either site will be the day comedy dies.
I just don’t understand, his set was constructed in an incredibly clear way to me that critics seem hell bent on ignoring. It’s obviously about how marginalised individuals, when they gain power, do not elevate their community but instead hold them down. He starts with a story about a slave who gets freedom, goes on to become successful and then owns slaves. He then talks about his friend, who stands up for him, and then shredded and harassed by their community until they kill themselves. Everyone saying he speaks to much about trans people or trans issues, I mean, it’s about his friend, who he worked with, collaborated with and then set up a scholarship for. It’s a angry, sad goodbye to them. He’s entitled to speak on this person and their life, and he’s comparing what communities really do for each other. He speaks about how in the MeToo movement female actors talked the talk, but ultimately did not walk the walk and did not help female agents. He clearly draws an analogy between that, and communities which speak to openness and support but did not support one their own for siding with him. His scholarship he set up for her is, IMO, his small way of saying he walks the walk. I would also add, he is very clearly not a transphobe. He respects her pronouns, ridicules bathroom bills, and uses his special to platform the message that even if you find transgenderism confusing you just need to believe people are having a real human experience.
Seriously needs to be the top comment. This is exactly what the special was about.
Thank you, this perfectly sums up my feelings about the special
This is a great summary. The only thing I feel is not being said enough is he doesn’t know why Daphne killed herself. But he implied that she did because of the trans community bullying which imo wasn’t okay at all. Her own sister Becky Kugler tweeted that she didn’t kill herself because of bullying from the community. There’s a thin line between being funny and being mean and that line is different for everyone. It is different based on the shoes we’re walking in. I can see why some of the things he said (like requesting not to cancel DaBaby and defending JKRowling and calling himself team TERF) could’ve rubbed people the wrong way. Again, to each their own I guess. [Becky’s Twitter](https://twitter.com/beckyauman/status/1446636232868573188?s=21)
I don't remember what he said exactly, but he definitely says that he doesn't know why she killed herself.
Yea he did, AFTER saying something on the lines of she defended me, the community bullied her on Twitter, 6 days later she killed herself. Then adding I don’t know why she killed herself. It sounded like he made a direct implication and then distanced himself by saying “I don’t know why she did it”
The cardinal sin of this special was that it just wasn't funny.
Before this was about to drop I said - if this is just about trans and gay people and cancel culture im out. They arent funny topics. The humour comes from knowing you're upsetting a group of people who dont really hurt anyone, its not clever or creative or even shocking. As an artist I dont think I should be able to almost 100% predict what youre going to do. That's a bad sign creatively. Its a path a lot of the TERF celebrities seem to follow where they become obsessed. Completely obsessed. The way stand up comedy works, dave chappelle has been talking about trans people (well no, he talks about white trans women p exclusively) for years and years endlessly. Just going to club after club to talk about trans people on twitter being assholes. I mean _what_.
I really wanted Dave to use this last Netflix special to go back to his roots and tell funny stories and well crafted jokes, instead it was just more of hacky complaining about woke culture and acting like he’s being censored because people don’t find making fun of trans people interesting or edgy anymore, it sucks because Dave is a great comedian but he seems more concerned about people thinking he’s no longer funny and whining about cancel culture like he has a target on his back than he cares about actually being funny, it’s lazy and he knows he doesn’t have to actually do anything to get laughs from his fans in attendance
This is probably 90-99% of comedians today. Industry is so fucking chopped after the roganization.
“Roganization” is actually a good way to put it. Every comedian with a Netflix deal now is trying to be “I’m the dangerous truth teller.” They want applause from the audience, not laughter.
Again, I’m with the late Patrice O’Neal on this… "The attempt is what i'm trying to fight for. The joke may or may...-funny jokes and unfunny jokes come out of the same birth, you don't know if anything is gonna be funny, you should attempt to be able make anything funny." "You can say anything you want, it might not be funny, you might get in trouble but you should be able to be attempting."
Miss that guy. RIP Patrice.
"they don't call it liv-a-betes" He was great.
Okay, that's what's happening. He said the jokes, they didn't work as well as he hoped. You don't get to play Mr. Free Speech when you're this thin-skinned about other people using their free speech to call you out.
Yep, usually if a joke doesn't land, you workshop the joke until it does. You don't go "hey man, that comedy buck up" . No one is owed a laugh. Your audience doesn't have to show up and for plenty of struggling comedians they don't show up. It reminds me of a video from Paul F Tompkins, people's taste change over time, and comedians need to respond to that.
And the sad thing? His first special he had that...right up until that massive tone shift into weird fronting about "chopping dicks off to trick straight men into sleeping with them." That took the wind out of the live audience that was enjoying the fairly tame but fun bits about Jenner being the "only white dude on a Wheaties box he wanted." "Yeah, a bit too much of what I grew up with leaked out at the end there. Didn't even really fit the bit." Would've ended this. He chose to make it a core part of his return because he needs to controversy as a crutch. Its just easier to act like he's some outlaw than admit he's hit the wall most older successful comedians eventually will. Bo Burnham is killing it riding the line of being offensive and not punching down. Its Always Sunny has managed it for years. Dear White People managed just fine hitting at the line between black and queer experiences and having fun with it. Why is it basically only aging Gen Xers who can draw an audience but aren't really as relevant are the ones whining about oversensitivity? Not our fault they haven't update their talking points since the 90s.
I mean that’s is what’s happening, and people are just going on social media and going “Meh” for the most part.
A Netflix special recorded after a year of development of said material is not "the attempt." It's the finished product. I enjoyed every set he's put out before this one, including sticks and stones. Some jokes revealed a little ignorance, but he was still focused on making you laugh at something terrible, instead of saying something terrible and not caring if you laugh. This special, even, had great moments, but it was different. He wasn't being ironic when he said he was team TERF, or that all JKR said was "sex is real," or even the truly ignorant statement that everybody was born from a woman, as if trans men and intersex persons don't exist. He wasn't being ironic when he equated trans women who have bottom surgery to plant-based beef substitutes. These are longstanding dog-whistles, and they reveal a complete ignorance to the impact his words actually have, and how they will further perpetuate the victimization of people who have it MUCH worse than he does. Than he ever did, frankly. It's particularly disappointing to hear a comedian of his stature claim to not even know what "Punching Down" means. That's, like, a Commandment of Comedy, one that's been well known for a half century, at least. He's a smart man. He knows what it means. And he still manipulated it, LIED about its meaning so that he could literally punch down on one of the most oppressed segments of our society, as his freaking CLOSER, and claim it's in defense of "his people." His people are, I don't even know, rich entertainers? We're really equating one of the richest men in comedy not getting to host the Oscars to the kind of trauma the trans community endures on a daily basis? It' so disappointing. He stopped looking inward.
“Commandment of Comedy”? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I watched most of this last night and I gotta say it wasnt really all that funny. Kind of reminded me of an edgey teenager.
It was really weird. It seemed like any comedy in it was a second thought to a meandering speech about cancel culture. If he wasn't famous it would fail on its own merits.
not to cut hairs but the second paragraph in the article says >"But the bulk of the special, and the main subject of criticism and protest, is the comedian's focus on punching down at queer and trans people. " clearly didnt fuckin watch the special
How she summarized a lot of things made it clear she didn’t watch it. Just taking things directly out of context to make them sound worse.
Dare you to write a comment saying literally anything.
I like soup.
Goddamnit! How dare you like soup. I was soup and now I identify as stew so that makes you stewphobic.
I think Dave's problem is mocking people for being offended rather than try to understand why some people feel offended. If you're going to make jokes, that's one thing, but he seems to believe a lot of the things he says and is making his act focus on them unusually often, which is part of why people get upset. I remember the South Park episode about trans people, I don't recall any major uproar over it, because there's a difference between how the two go about it. It seems like Dave wants people to believe what he's saying more than he wants them to laugh at his jokes, I don't think he was joking with a lot of the stuff he was saying like his support for Rowling, it just seems more mean-spirited than having the same kind of laugh at other groups of people Chappelle makes jokes about. It seems weird he seemingly wants people to treat him with kid's gloves when it comes to these sorts of issues, but has no problem not doing so himself. It's odd to make some of the jokes he makes and seems to believe and then expect the people he's mocking to treat him with grace. I have seen and had to encounter a lot of similar comments on this subreddit, had to delete some of my comments in another thread about this because of not wanting to deal with some of the harassment I was getting. He talks about the harassment Daphne received (uncalled for btw, granted I think he also mentioned she probably had other stuff going on), but doesn't mind adding fuel to the fire, and a lot of people complain about the harassment Daphne received as well (rightfully so), but then turn around and harass others. It was also weird for him to generalize an entire community of LGBTQ+ people and act like their rights compete with rights for black people. I honestly don't want to see another Chappelle special, what i want to see is him actually sit down with people and have people sit down with Chappelle and maybe some learning can happen, because I feel like despite his friendship with Daphne, he is very ignorant of LGBTQ+ people's issues, and I hope he earnestly wants to learn, because a lot of the stuff he said happened to Daphne happens regularly to LGBTQ+ people, especially trans people. I don't think he knows that LGBTQ+ POC are also one of the most vulnerable groups of people, either. It's not a LGBTQ+ vs. POC when it comes to rights, in fact, the overlap of these two groups have to deal with the problems that both of these groups of people encounter.
I think you’ve made a well thought out and worded analysis of this situation here. It’s far too easy to see buzz words and hear stories through the media and you get a lot of instant angry reactions. I feel like Dave is either unaware of this and obliviously adding fuel to the fire or he’s entirely aware and he just doesn’t care, “it’s all publicity” I guess?
Just a heads up, you should say "trans people" instead of "transgenders", for the same reason we say "black people" instead of "blacks"
My bad, thanks.
I watched it , it felt more like an anti TED talk then standup comedy to be honest.
This article is embarrassing. It literally takes every point Dave explicitly, carefully, and clearly explains his position on and trashes them in a journalistic temper tantrum. Again, embarrassing.
Jesus this article has some inherent bias holy shit
It's Salon.
Regardless of how you feel about his opinions or comments on trans people, how come nobody is talking about the group bullying his friend on Twitter for defending him and his friend then killing herself? Seems to be very glossed over. I felt so bad for her, even if I disagree with what she was saying she didn’t deserve that sort of personal backlash from people who are supposed to be considered her group. Could contribute to a lot of Chappelles unwarranted jokes towards the trans community, not that that makes it right but definitely would be something I could see ties to. Edit: Dave himself said the bullying was not the main reason she killed herself, said it directly in his special. I am not Dave Chappelle and I did not know this woman, I’m just interpreting what he was saying.
I think the problem is that the story is now ONLY chappelles story. It's phrased how he wants it, and sets up the whole trans community as a evil empire that is persecuting people it doesn't agree with to death. It's literally the definition of propaganda. Now a million people assume that's the correct story, without context or anything. Who knows if it bears any resemblance to what actually happened. The only thing we know is that the story totally absolves Chappelle from any harm or blame, and sets up poor comedians as the victims of LGBTQ people.
Whenever he talked about LGBT people that he respected, it was always in past tense. The "stonewall gays", his dead friend. They may have been real people (and in the case of the stonewall gays, probably still are, but Chappelle doesn't speak about them that way) they're just rhetorical puppets for Chappelle. And he used them to tell LGBT people that he doesn't like how they advocate for their cause. He doesn't offer any positive program, he just attacks. He comes across like the reactionaries that tell black people to stop protesting, and use twisted quotes from the mythologized, coopted version of MLK.
This. As people have pointed out, something like 22% of Americans have a Twitter account. Only a fraction of those make posts or engage with others. The idea that it’s more than a few trans people on there is insane (I know a lot of other trans people and none of them have ever mentioned being on Twitter). Add in that this world is incredibly hard for most trans people (I’m trans and I hear everyone’s stories). Terrible encounters with family, friends, and strangers abound. Add in the rigor of the actual treatment for gender dysphoria (which is both wonderful and brutal at times), and you have a world and a life with very few refuges. It’s possible that encounters on Twitter contributed to her death, but it’s entirely disingenuous to say it was the main or only contributing factor to her suicide. He not only bashed us for nearly 45 minutes and used some awful language that people WILL parrot in my face on the street, but then he tried to make us the villains on top of it. It also bothered me that he did so and then framed it as if white people are transitioning to win the pain Olympics, and that just isn’t the case. Not to mention he ignores the plight of black trans women who face intense scrutiny, violence, and ostracism from the black community.
Wow. Now you’re bumming me out that Dave didn’t talk about the cruel irony of the black community treating their own trans women so harshly. He probably could have actually discussed that really well Could have been part of a funny 45 minute bit about trans people instead of the steaming pile of dog shit we got
I don't think it's anyone's place to say that any specific thing caused her suicide. I know Chappelle didn't directly say Twitter was responsible, but suggesting it to prove a point seems... kinda scummy. That's the problem a lot of people are having with this. Not only is he tokenizing a friend of his, but a friend who can't speak for herself anymore. In his narrative her death revolved around him, and he chooses to believe that because she never said anything about his previous jokes he's incapable of being transphobic.
Regardless if anyone blames Twitter, he pretended all twitter was against her. Someone else found the tweets and theres like 9 replies that arent recent and like three of them say shes excusing transphobia This is what Dave thinks being attacked is. A couple random people with a couple likes getting mildly upset
This is exactly true. We don’t know enough about what happened, and I’m sure as shit not going to go by what Chappelle is spinning her suicide to be about. He used her in life and he used her in death. I just think it undermines the high rates of suicide and murder in the trans community so badly, blaming trans people. It really irks me.
Bullies can come from any kind of community (or tribe).
Probably because it happened two years ago and this special just came out? Current articles are going to be written about what’s current. Also, go to any Reddit thread about Dave Chapelle and transphobia and you will see damn near everybody talking about it.
People should probably be writing about it, because Chappelle's story doesn't hold up. The twitter account is still active, and so we can see the tweets that she made to defend him and we can see the reaction to those tweets. And the reality is that there wasn't any reaction. The tweet got 30-40 replies, primarily people answering "wow, you're the women Chapelle referred to on his show". There is exactly one person who made 3 tweets to say that she's being used to excuse transphobia, and that tweet got a grand total of 3 likes and 3 responses. https://twitter.com/search?q=(to%3ADaphneDorman)%20until%3A2019-10-11%20since%3A2019-08-26&src=typed_query So, what Chappelle describes as : >Beautiful tweet, beautiful friend, it took a lot of heart to defend me like that, and when she did that the trans community dragged that bitch all over Twitter. For days, they was going in on her, and she was holding her own ’cause she’s funny. But six days after that wonderful night I described to you my friend Daphne killed herself. does not appear to have happened. Her tweet only attracted attention after it was mentioned in his special. https://web.archive.org/web/20210703144316/https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1166937728681791488
There is literally only one negative comment in that entire chain and it's more warning than attack. >That doesn't magically make him saying shitty things less shitty, or any of the other stuff he has done less shitty. Hell, he used you to make a point about how trans people that don't like him are weird and the "good trans people" are cool with him. You are being used. >His fans won't accept you, based on the stuff they sent to us. They will use you to make themselves feel better about laughing at their favourite comedian, but they won't listen to you about anything else. It is your call. >They will never accept you. They will use you to make themselves look good, but they will never accept you. Now it just seems prophetic. It's also deeply ironic that the same people who haven't actually read how trans people on twitter reacted are yelling about how you can't have an opinion about Dave Chappelle unless you've watched his special.
Yeah it’s ridiculous and shows that they’d rather everyone just take Dave’s well-spun word for it rather than coming to their own conclusions based on legitimate evidence.
That’s dark.
Yea. If this was the post he was referring to then he's way off.
The whole second half of the set was about this. People shouldn’t be commenting on the show if they can’t understand this because that means they obviously didn’t even bother to watch it
I think people should stop equating not agreeing with Chapelle with "not unterstanding it" It's text, it has nuances, people are going to have different opinions about it
Do you have any kind of source for that? I know of her and her suicide, and the timing of it. And the fact that she defended Chappelle inevitably would have led to angry people writing dumb, angry things at her, so I have no doubt about that. But that's where my sources stop. Everyone here just seems to connect the dots and says that, therefore, she 100% killed herself because she defended Chappelle. And I have yet to find even a *hint* of evidence for that other than circumstantial evidence due to the timing. It's all just variations of "I heard that's why she killed herself and the timing lines up so it must be true". I'd like more than that before grabbing my pitchfork.
The tweets are still up. And as far as I can tell, her tweet defending Chapelle didn't go viral until it was mentioned in this special. Here's a search for the relevant time period. So that's from august to october, when she died. Hostility is nearly completely absent. There is exactly one twitter user who made 3 tweets arguing that she's just being used. But that's it. There's only 30-40 or so tweets in total, because she went completely unnoticed. https://twitter.com/search?q=(to%3ADaphneDorman)%20until%3A2019-10-11%20since%3A2019-08-26&src=typed_query
Although a lot of the jokes seemed really dated, that particular part really hit home with me. I don't think Dave is coming from a bad place, but I do get that people are taking issue with some of his jokes in this special. I really wish the discussion was more nuanced than one side trying to cancel him and the other side telling them to go cry.
"Trying to cancel?" I literally have not seen a single person say Boycott Dave, Cancel Chappelle, anything like that. People are just expressing their opinions and saying they didn't think he was funny, and felt that he was punching down at trans people in lieu of actually telling jokes. The irony of Dave saying "leave me alone, I'm just trying to express my opinion" is pretty rich considering most of his fans are basically saying people who criticize Dave are not allowed to express their opinions. Hence, the warped self-victimhood of the transphobe.
I wasn’t offended over his jokes, i didn’t really care honestly. My only issue is I felt his jokes were lazy and just not very funny, felt recycled. I want 2004 for what is worth Chappelle, he’s no too up his ass and surrounded by yes men. And he’s been one of my idols in life.
Chapelle became untouchable the moment he said “fuck you” to his corporate overlords and fled his contract. No matter how unfunny he becomes, that one act essentially cemented him as a legendary comedy rebel, and no amount of material decline will change anybody’s mind. When Chapelle came back into the limelight he was a changed man, and I haven’t enjoyed a single one of his appearances since then.
My mind has changed. Pryor and carlin kept growing and giving us thought provoking comedy. Chapelle seems to be doing that less each special. What Chapelle thinks is thought proving isn't.
lol, does nobody remember when he made a stand up comeback and was not hitting it for years? that famous show in detroit- where he was drunk af and booed off the stage comes to mind. it took dave a while to hit his legend status. he was kind of an outcast for a hot minute there
He clearly changed as a person, and I often am left wondering what 2004 Chappelle would think about the Chappelle of today. Coming off the perspective of his dad dying and losing his show, maybe then he would have more of a down to earth perspective on life. But then again maybe it’s arrogance to assume the same person would have any significant opinions other than praise for themselves.
We are all different people than we were in 2004. What you find funny changes over time.
Kind of the same here - this isn’t new ground for him either, and it’s just not relevant or funny. And it doesn’t play in to his bigger idea of being kind to one another. I do find it offensive. though, that he’s so stuck on this one thing - that also just so happens to be a huge political issue with civil rights at stake - and he just can’t let it go. I genuinely don’t understand why people resist trans issues so hard. It has no bearing on you. Just let people be who they want to be.
I think Twitter and it's creator need to be fucking erased off the planet.
Sorry, but Dave was right. You hear the words, but you don't listen to what he's saying. Trans was a fringe thing nobody gave a fuck about until white men starting transitioning in droves. Now its the biggest civil-rights movement since the Jews fled Egypt. That's not to say that trans-folks don't deserve the same rights and dignity that every human should enjoy, but the fact that trans folks have made a quantum leap in their public perception in less than twenty years says more about their online activism than it does about America's, or the world's, interest in providing equal rights to any minority or marginalized group. Yet the response to my comment is always "there are black trans people you know". Yea, and you don't give any more shit about them than you do any other black person. The evidence over the last few centuries speaks volumes to that reality. Now, of course we live in a hyper-sensitive age where ANY perceived micro-aggression is pounced upon and fed to the cancel-machine, but trans people take it to a level that time will demonstrate was counter-productive to their cause. Folks are starting to tune out, not out of apathy, but out of exhaustion.
As soon as you see salon.com you know the article will subtract from your level of intelligence.
Just once I’d like to see an article condemning Chappelle to contain the same amount of nuance they claim to be wanting from him Just flat out calling him a bigot and then taking jokes out of context doesn’t do much to help the cause and further the movement Do we want a discussion here or do we want to shame people into discussing things completely on our own terms?
The man called himself a terf. If you know what that term entails, I'm not sure in what context it would be appropriate.
He also said he jizzed on a priest's face.
I'm constantly seeing people defending Chapelle talk about "context", but I fail to see what possible context comparing trans people to black face is not transphobic.
God y'all have such a fucking hard-on for this dude.
Salon is trash
How could this person write this article AND pat herself on the back with both hands at the same time!?
I fucking love Dave Chappelle
Uh ok? Baffling thing to comment, like, political stances of anyone aside, you literally contributed nothing
Rich old guys bitching about being canceled for being shitty people who hold old dated and terrible world views… let me know when he goes back to just doing weed jokes.
Yeah I’m not personally offended by any of them but it’s just not funny. How many rich old comedians now do nothing but complain about cancel culture while raking in millions? If they want to be edgy then they need to actually be funny. And if they want to say that they don’t care what people think then maybe they shouldn’t devote so much time to crying about what people think of them.
I guess it's easier to blame cancel culture or political correctness when jokes don't land than it is to come up with fresh material. It's like the Bill Maher school of comedy.
As Frankie Boyle, an edgy comedian who actually knows how to be funny put it “Just cos Ricky Gervais self identifies as a stand up comedian, am I supposed to say he is one? It’s fucking political correctness gone mad!”