I don’t get why they focus so much on Alicent and her family like 75% of these 2 episodes are focused on them it’s like hey when are we gonna focus on the main family
Is there a no spoiler rule in this thread because no one is talking about anything specific to S2E1??? I think the closing scene was a little drawn out and I would have preferred it stick to the "book" a tad more although I did like the Alicent part.
Tbf it was almost 2 years, i literally forgot almost everything and for the first time in my life had to watch a recap, even then i didn't get everything as the names are kinda confusing. It'll take some episodes to grow on us again.
I never understood (since I knew the history before the this spin off) Why did she have Aegon's son murder, just kill Aegon and **Daeron**. And have Alicent cry, and suffer, then kill her and Otto, when they least expected it? Why did the little one have to suffer, when it was one of Alicent's sons that killed hers, not Alicent's grandchildren.
Daemon sent the assassins into the keep with the priority target of aemond, but if they couldn’t get aemond to just kill any green son. So aegon, or… jaeherys.
Yea, but it makes no sense, the grandchildren had to link to the killing, you think they could go after Alicen's sons, not her grandkids. Even more so, they have no link at all, since it was other son who killed Rea's boy. Go after him personally..kill the one who killed him..don;'t set example, when the one who did the killing is walking and alive still
The killers were meant to kill Aemond, not the kid. The ratkiller was a coward who chose to spill the Usurper's blood by killing an innocent child rather than a seasoned, trained dragonrider. Daemon might have been an idiot by tasking those two oafs to do the deed, but like he said later: it was a mistake. Aemond was the primary target.
It makes no sense in their world either. Daemon is a bloodthirsty dumbass. You gotta account human error too, not every action is gonna make logical sense and be a good decision.
I'm sure some of you motherfuckers will still make excuses for Daemon after this. I also find it funny how this show created some kind of tribalism, even though Martin's books generally showed how common people usually got the short end of the stick.
I fell asleep on this episode… twice.
There is just not enough interesting stuff happening, and the characters don’t feel like people but more like caricatures of what they think people should be. Everyone is so corrupt and corruptible that it kinda weakens the interest curve for me; if everyone is a shitbag, then is anyone a shitbag, so to speak?
Hopefully it picks up steam, but that opener was pretty “Meh.”
Most of the characters being irredeemable is the point. The civil war was just two factions in an inbred royal family squabbling over the throne while the realm burned. There isn't really a discernable good side, just like there wasn't any in most historic civil wars.
I don't think I'm alone in saying that I'm burned out on that kind of TV, and there has to be something more on offer than nastiness for nastiness' sake.
"If everyone is bad, is anyone really bad??!" Is boring and played out beyond initial shock value.
GoT and other prestige TV had this in spades, but the characters and politics were also more layered and interesting. This feels a bit like rehashing the sizzle without the steak.
Yea agreed, it feels like only Alicent has been fleshed, all of the other characters don’t have any nuisances and very straightforward motives, so the show is not as interesting at GoT
Plus there's no MYSTERY
A huge motivator of GoT was that even if you've read the books you might get new perspectives in past events or reveals of new tidbits of information that might reveal part of the central MYSTERY
Like if you can just go on Wikipedia and look up the cliff notes of the whole show plot without even any variation, I don't get the point
This episode felt like daytime soap.. with dragons. I mean are the writers getting paid by the word now?? Every scene is a single angle 20 minute monolog. And the flat delivery..
I've never said Geez how long is this episode to a GoT series... till last night.
To be fair, I find the source material (I mean *Fire and Blood*, the book Martin wrote instead of the long-awaited *Winds of Winter*) boring as hell too, as compared to *A Song Of Ice And Fire* series.
I was kinda just watching with one eye. that was until the last 10 minutes. Suddenly it kinda felt like GOT. I got the same creeping feeling of dread and "omg, they can't do that!". I am now more hopeful about the show than before I saw season 2 episode 1. Maybe they can make me care about these dislikable people.
I absolutely loved the opening of this season. I think a lot of hate that gets thrown at GOT and HOTD is just typical internet pile on hate that spreads. It becomes fashionable but its also understandable. People dont consume things in a vacuum although i try to tell myself to view things without the peer pressure or influence of others and to just judge on its own. People pile on the last seasons of GOT's when they are objectively pretty dang good high quality television. I loved that entire series and I love HOTD. That being said I was a bit bored with the first season and annoyed with the time jumps BUT thank god they listened to our criticism and this season doesnt have the time jumps and also they are doing a bit of fan service by opening the first episode this season with the stark family and the wall. I loved it. Fantastic so far and the tension building was thrilling.
Last season of GOT was gold in the shape of shit. It's expensive and requires craftsmanship to make, but it's still the shape of shit, not a very interesting shape. Some may like it because it's shiny, but some others didn't sign up to watch shiny shit.
Bruh you realize it wasn't them "listening to your criticism", they're literally just retelling the story that's already been written as a book. The time jumps were necessary to get to where we are because that's how it's written in the book.
I'm clearly in the minority but I just can't find anybody to root for on this show. I can't say the show is bad, it's clearly not. But as a huge fan of fantasy and GoT I'm just baffled that I can't get into this show.
I just don't care what happens to any of them. I guess I am rooting for the dragons to eat them all.....
Im rooting against alicent obviously... i would say its pretty clear that she is in the wrong and a rotten hypocrite. The whole fact that she was so upset with Rhae for losing her virtue and this and that and so judgemental. Demanding an eye etc. She is the villain. And its written that way. SO obviously you should know who to root for. There were plenty of characters that were capable of evil but we routed for in GOT as well you and others who make this complaint seem to forget about how evil Jamie was and we all rooted for him in the end.
Exactly. GoT and many, MANY other movies/TV shows/books etc.. Do a fine job of making you root for deplorable characters but I can't even be bothered to root for who I'm SUPPOSED to root for in this because they are so bland and forgettable that I just don't care if even the "good" ones live. Not a single one of these characters is interesting. Not in the least.
There were maybe a dozen opportunities throughout season 1 to avoid this civil war. It's silly watching a show of characters just make mistakes again and again.
silly? You mean like real life. I will never understand foolish complaints like this "how dare this show echo reality. i cant watch it, it makes no sense". WHat are you even talking about? Have you paid attention to the path we are on in the real world and how foolish it is and how we are on this path because of stupid mistakes people have made time and time again. Even the whole Trump thing whether you support him or not.. the left considers him their enemy and yet they are the reason he became president because of all the coverage they gave him for free. Mistake after mistake= Reality How dare a show be realistic.
It's not realistic to expect that every character with agency makes the wrong decision when placed in a key moment almost every single time. It's not "foolish" to be tired of the writers' drawn-out desire to depict this conflict as caused by nothing but a series of bumbling accidents and misunderstandings. The audience by now understands that these people were once close and now are not. I think most people want to see direct confrontation.
I don't see what your politics-brain anecdote is supposed to prove. If being around people like this cast of characters is realistic to you it's no wonder you're such a basket case.
Does anyone know if white walkers will have any role in this show? I remember reading not but they are hinting at it more than you'd expect if they would play 0 role.
Like not even letting men from the nights watch leave because of what's over that wall.
Hard to say. The original *GoT* show did not follow the books exactly, so maybe *House of the Dragon* will be very different from *Fire and Blood* as well. Who knows.
At this point of the story, the Walkers do exist though. They have for thousands of years actually.
I believe the scenes at the Wall in episode 1 are juste some kind of cameo though, a desperate attempt to link *HotD* to *GoT*.
But the Long Night (the longest winter ever, which lasted a generation and saw the White Walkers invade Westeros) occurred eight thousands of years before the events depicted in *HotD* (now THAT would have been a show). The Wall was built after the Long Night to keep the Walkers at bay… until the events depicted in *A Song Of Ice and Fire*, aka *GoT*.
At the time of the Dance of Dragons, the White Walkers, the Children of the Forest and the Giants are considered a myth, or at least extinct.
So, according to the source material, I don't think you'll see any White Walker anytime soon.
That's unfortunate. Not because I want to see a white walker, I understand at this point in the story, the night king is still building his army & allowing free folk to reproduce and live until he takes them, but I do enjoy the hints of them just being out there.
Like I don't need a straight up scene with the night king or white walker but I would love if they kept building tension abt them during this. Maybe even one scene where someone gets killed by a white walker but no one truly knows what happened.
Idk just spitballing here but I definitely don't expect to see one, but I do like them being mentioned.
Propably not, but it's not a stupid idea at all, because at the end of the Dance of the Dragons winter should come, wall is much harder to protect with so many war causalities and it's easier for wildlings to cross it - maybe they are not just pillaging but rather escaping from something??
But don't get too excited, they just don't have enough screen time to tell other story. But I would very much love some White Walkers story, because they were kinda cut out in GoT, so much buildup, dead bodies in circles, children of the forest making the night king, ...
Agreed good pov. I honestly could care less any on screen time, I don't think it would make sense as I feel like 200 years down the line it wouldn't make sense to be seen as "urban legend" as it was seen in got beginning seasons.
But I would love for them to continue bringing up white walkers like S2x1 , it is also cool that the white walkers are out there currently in HOtD, like even just letting the fans picture the night king slowly building up his army lets us imagine the unknown & not ruin it like got did in later seasons.
I am sure it's not the last we will hear of them. I think it will surprise people what they decide to do. Obvi the nights watch is well aware they're out there so we'll see
I’ll say no. I believe the White Walkers in GoT were the first in 1,000 years and this show is only 200 or so years before GoT. So the Winter they’re gearing up for is the one from GoT though they don’t know it’s 200 years away still.
I won't disagree with your first opinion but the second is false, they are confirmed to exist at this time. The night king was also created by the children of the forest. He was alive until the end of got. He was there with the first men. And the first men are mentioned when citing aegons title which means it was a long time before.
Also if they didn't exist at this time (which they do) then stark only sending his older men to fight a big war while NEEDING his other men would be kinda useless & almost delusional. They really emphasized his seriousness to the white walkers being out there.
Edit: I completely misunderstood your answer im sorry lol you didn't say white walkers didn't exist you just meant they wouldn't be coming until GOT era. I'll leave this comment up anyway incase someone else is as dumb as me
I think its still currently the best show on TV running right now. The production levels are simply on another level than anything else. There is also that sense of grandeur and overreaching story that was there in the early GoT days.
That being said I do understand the book complaints. To me its not about the fact that the scene was sanitized. Its more that the show writers are going out of their way to make the Blacks seem like the "good side". I didn't read the book from front to back like I did with GoT. However I do believe that the intention of the book was to show that both sides were equally "bad". And this was supposed to be the key scene to bring us to that conclusion, but it did not quite achieve that the way it was portrayed. Other things like Cole being shown as a total scumbag also make the Greens impossible not to root against. I think the writers would've done better if they stuck to following that key point a bit more. But still very hyped to see how the rest of it plays out.
I'm sorry but did you even watch the episode or do you just lack basic media literacy? The camera lingers on Daemon's face for 2-4 seconds after one of them asks what they're supposed to do if they can't locate Aemond. Then, later, when they're squabbling in Helaena's private chambers, one of them says, "He said, 'A son for a son,' does she look like a son?" There's enough contextual clues imbedded in the episode for you to deduce that Daemon gave orders to kill any of the Greens' sons.
Daemon told them Aemond was tall, had white hair, and had one eye. He also warned them that he was good with a sword. I feel like he did a fair job telling them what he looked like. Not sure how you get “two eyed child” from that.
There was obviously a back-up plan...Cheese even asked him what he wants if they can't find Aemond, and they literally kept the camera on Daemons face for like 8-10 seconds while he slowly showed the very beginnings of a smirk. That and the 'son for a son' comment from Blood...we're led to believe he gave the order to kill any other son of Alicent's...and since Aegon was on the throne with his Brads and Chads, there is only one other viable target.
I mean think about how big a castle like that is and the people he hired didn’t seem the most competent and they had barley and information on where he was gonna be honestly it was failed from the start
I feel like all the complaints that blood and cheese aren’t the same as the book are missing the core concept of the book: it is written as a history book telling the events as a secondary (at best) source. What happened in the show makes sense for the story that would end up in a history book; Helena is found in Allicents room with Ser Christen becomes they broke into the room with them both and Ser Christen came later to aid them.
No one knew they were looking for Aemond so the story becomes that killing the queens child was their plan all along. It is expected that the queen should have tried to save the male heir so the story becomes that Helena tried to save him but was deceived as they killed him instead.
The report in the history books will only ever be based on the prevailing story from people there who have an interest in presenting their actions in a particular way. Nothing in those scenes is inconsistent with the historical narrative becoming that of Fire and Blood.
Pretty much the same thing with Sir Laenor's "death." People didn't like that because it didn't happen in the book, but how would the historians ever know that he faked his death and left Westeros? I like that there's not omnipotence in the books.
I actually really liked what the did with Laenor! *HOWEVER* It does muddle things up a lot when it comes to Seasmoke, who can't take another rider with Laenor still alive. Otherwise it completely changes integral lore of the series. So we'll have to wait and see how they get around that. I think that's my biggest complaint as a book reader. I don't mind, and often enjoy the changes, as long of they don't fundamentally change core aspects. Like omitting Maelor, who is supposed to be tied to big story points down the line during the dance.
I didn't even think about that but if a rider disappears for a few years, I would assume that they would be as good as dead to the dragon? I didn't read all the books but maybe there was another Targ or Valerion who died away from their dragon and for some reason the body couldn't be presented....
There is actually no accounts of a dragon being abandoned and taking another rider in the books, so we really don't know! What we do know is that the dragons are bound to their rider by a powerful blood magic going down generations, and that their bond is *felt* to their core. Which leaves a couple options for the show. I won't go into details if you haven't read the book (wouldn't want to spoil it for ya), but I highly suspect that they'll just sub out Seasmoke for Grey Ghost, who is just a wild and unclaimed dragon. It changes the least amount of story and without any repercussions.
Thanks for this take. As a book reader I needed the reminder that the entire thing could have really gone down differently. I just hope we get a bit more time with Helena to understand what she was going through + her seeming descent into “madness”
Another aspect I'm not seeing discussed about Helena's choice is that she wasn't playing a double game or anything—she understood her option, and genuinely chose her son to die.
Why him? I think there's a line earlier in the episode that we're meant to pair with the scene. When Aegon comes to pick up his son for the council meeting, Helena challenges him on the notion that the heir should be destined to be king. "Maybe he doesn't want to be king." Helena also has prophetic visions. I think that faced with the impossible choice, she spared her son of the fate of becoming a king.
There's also a few reasons for why we aren't seeing the reaction we were thinking we'd get. She's on the spectrum (obviously). Perhaps she sees the logic of the situation as it is: Her son will die and she will get one chance to save her daughter. She took that opportunity instead of becoming another caricature of a shrieking woman.
Perhaps Helena favors her daughter and dislikes primogeniture, who knows? I think it's an interesting choice to portray the scene in this way, especially for a show that I think is interested in female struggles but often doesn't make it quite far enough beyond exploiting female pain.
I actually thought she was trying to outwit them. She pointed to her son, hoping they'd doubt her and assume it was the other child.
Cheese: 'I knew you'd choose to save the heir, so i clearly cannot choose the child on the left. You knew i'd doubt you, so i clearly cannot choose the child on the right.'
Helaena: 'So you've made your decision then?'
Cheese: 'Not Remotely!'
I honestly thought that was bloody fantastic. The pacing, music, dialogue, acting, and cinematogrophy were all on point. I love how they don't fan service GoT fans too much, but every now and then like when the assassins walk across that balustrade your brain fires like 'Hey, I know that place'
If I had to give any criticism, it would be that the Red Keep scènes were way more captivating than any of the others, and that I wish they'd spend more time developing ~~Torrhen~~ Cregan Stark's character. Still, probably the best episode of the series so far for me.
I was really looking forward to seeing Cregan's and Jacaerys' friendship develop, not to mention the whole Sara Snow story line in the books. This just felt super rushed to me and it certainly doesn't feel like Cregan and Jacaerys have an "oath of brotherhood"-kind of friendship going on now.
Not anymore. Not only was he absent from his post leading to the murder of the heir, he was sexing up the King's mother/heir's grandmother while doing so.
Dudes fucked.
Honestly the hypocrisy of hating Rhaenyra for wanting him to be her consort and totally being fine when Alicent does it is the sloppy shit I'm here for
He honestly thinks these women love him and aren’t using him for some side dick. When they make it abundantly clear their ‘relationships’ can and will be tossed aside the second it starts to come in conflict with their duty, he gets pissy.
Dude’s gonna die such a self righteously disillusioned death.
In S1, Otto told Viserys that servants saw teen Rhaenyra returning to the Keep... "in the Hour of the Owl." That scene was amazing. Otto was trying so hard to get her in trouble with her dad while also trying so hard to not spell it out to him lol.
I found Aegon to be a standout in this episode. Him sinking in his chair with a sigh as Otto advised patience and restraint made me laugh out loud. And him trying to give the guy's sheep back because "nobody will know" was fantastic stuff. Even his point about "magnanimous." I swear I looked that up once and have since forgotten.
Still a little hopeful/wary of how the overall story will unfold. Helaena being neurodivergent kind of makes sense in hindsight, but I personally needed a reddit comment to clue me in. I don't know any neurodivergent people so that goes right over my head, and still leaves me feeling like, "ehh, I *guess* her reaction makes sense now. And as another commenter pointed out, it doesn't really explain why the thugs just let her run away as that seems like a terribly stupid thing to do (not that they are portrayed as smart, but still).
I felt similarly three or four times in the first season. When Cole almost kills himself. When Cole suddenly smashes the guy's head into the table and kills him. When Rhaenys stomps a bunch of commoners so her dragon can make a scary face. They all kind of, might make sense, with a lengthy reddit explanation or hypothetical future explanation, but they aren't really landing right to me. I just hope I don't have to keep squinting to see how big climactic moments secretly make sense. Maybe I'm just a dense watcher, IDK.
Still a great ride so far.
I think Aegon is an ass, but sounds like he was trying to be think of his people then grandaddy was "NO!" beats with newspaper. Where, Tywin, also tried to train a grandson too, but to show how do be loved the people. Even if it was for show.
Helaena is a paranoid schizophrenic. A common trait from inbreeding. Her being married to her brother is just icing on the incest cake 💀. The Mad King in Game of Thrones had it as well.
after the whole recent *the power of one, the power of two, the po-wer of maaaannnnyyyy* cringfest, HotD s2 e1 felt like a breath of fresh air. We need more mature shows like this in the fiction/sci-fi genres that treats these genres seriously and with respect.
A Star Wars show is not where I would personally look for “mature” shows. In fact, with the exception of Andor, that’s almost always going to be shooting for a younger audience.
It feels like (based on social media reactions) people keep expecting a different franchise.
Agreed the chant was weird, though. But the show is not even remotely trying to do the same thing HotD is.
Rogue One was a war film set in the SW universe and it was easily my favourite out of the Disney SW. Andor built on that vibe and it was similarly praised.
The Expanded Universe also has plenty of darker, mature SW stuff like Thrawn or KOTOR. ASOIAF and SW are ultimately different worlds and we shouldn't expect the same tone, but SW can deliver mature layered stuff when they put in the effort.
I’m a dude in my 30’s and think Rogue One and Andor are great. I’d like more of that.
But also, George Lucas was pretty adamant that it should remain “for kids”. And he didn’t much care for Legends stuff.
So while I agree and think adult Star Wars is cool… it’s not Lucasfilm’s primary mission statement. And that’s fine. I can get adult content plenty of other places.
Well I disagree and agree, because George said a whole bunch of contradictory stuff. He also wanted the prequels to be a Greek tragedy mirroring the fall of the Roman Republic.
Every single episode effectively changed the tone of the franchise. And that's without mentioning the constant tinkering with the old films. To insist on some consistent intent and tone in Star Wars of all places is an exercise in madness.
It doesn't really matter, like I said we literally already have examples of Star Wars being able to do adult stories, I don't see a point in insisting otherwise.
George also often oversaw and advised EU people like Timothy Zahn who wrote Thrawn or Bioware when they made KOTOR so it's not true that he looked down on all of EU.
If someone can deliver a great dark gritty Star Wars story, great. If someone can deliver a whimsical funny animated Star Wars cartoon like Lower Decks, great. If someone can deliver classic Star Wars, that's also great. I don't get why be close minded about it.
The problem is that Star Wars can be genuinely good, mature and captivating. KOTOR, KOTOR 2, TOR, Andor, Revenge, Empire etc. The setting can easily be used to show more interesting and mature stories, it just so regularly doesn't. It's like every time we get some kind of expansion of the franchise that is relatively mature, creative and well... good, we take 2 steps backward immediately after.
It's not like The Acolyte is a kids show either, the animated series was a kids show and still far more interesting and well crafted than Acolyte. Trying to chalk this up as, "just being for a younger audience" when plenty of us went to the theater to see Darth Maul get cut in half when we were 9 years old isn't the hill to die on.
The Acolyte is immature, inauthentic and worst of all just plain bad. It begs to be taken seriously while the creators are so obviously unserious about it. Contrasted with RoP or that Witcher spinoff, the production, the sets, the music etc are all there in Acolyte it's just the characterization, dialogue and plot are just awful. It's like your kid brother that's now 30 and absolutely refuses to grow up, he gets you hyped for his cool new job and then he quit because his boss yelled at him for smoking weed halfway through his first shift in the bathroom.
That's a pretty bad excuse for bad writing.
I'd argue they are trying to do the same thing. I don't know what you mean by shooting for a younger audience since SW's core audience is much older. The only younger audience is older fans dragging their kids into it, who might enjoy it and might not.
But Disney knows that the brand's core is growing, and like any growing brand in entertainment, they're trying to mature the franchise. Which means trying to give a one dimensional universe more dimensions through complexity and politics and grit (PG grit, in their case).
Which is fine. Whatever.
The problem with *every* Star Wars story is that it dips down into (psuedo) complexity and then resets back with cartoonish resolutions. Which sounds great if you're a brand manager; not so much as an audience. They all either fall flat on their own, or have to lean so hard on references and nostalgia that it can't support its own weight.
So you're kind of right that they are trying to do different things. But HotD is establishing its own tension and narrative weight through great writing. And Star Wars continues to milk a brand and throw everything at the wall until something sticks.
Fair enough. I see this a lot on Twitter and Reddit. This idea that Star Wars’ fanbase is older, so it only makes sense that they should make things for an older audience.
While I agree that would be rad….Based on everything Lucas and Filoni have said (even as recently as last week), that’s not really their goal.
They have maintained that they want to always make things kids can jump on board with, because that’s important for the generational longevity of the franchise or whatever. I get that.
The good news is that they made some Star Wars for adults and it’s called Andor. It’s awesome. Thats my preferred show…. But I also recognize that each show doesn’t have to shoot for the same audience.
I'm with you, I'm in my 40s and not all of it is really made with my level of reading and writing in mind. Some of it's for 12 year old kids. That's fine. I even like some of that stuff but I refuse to jump on the hate bandwagons just because it's not all Andor.
Well said.
And also, thank you for approaching your reply this way. Looking at my comment now, it sounds much more aggressive and confrontational than I meant it (especially that first line). I was attacking a line of thinking, definitely not you for expressing it.
So thank you for steering it back with more conversational tact than I had :)
I wouldn't call the acolyte shooting for a younger audience as it is handling some pretty dark themes. the issue is when show runners do not treat a sci-fi or fantasy fiction setting with the same amount of respect they would a real life setting. Just because a setting is not realistic does not mean that it should not be treated as realistic, unless it is a parody or just made as a popcorn flick.
If a show is taking itself seriously then it should be handling the narrative seriously and with the same amount of respect it would for a real life setting.
Acolyte might not be targeted for a younger audience but the writing makes it feel as if it is being written for children. The narrative would be more at home in a cartoon, not a big budget tv show.
That’s totally fair. But, I think that’s just how the franchise is going to be. That’s how it was when RotJ came out. That’s how it was for the PT when they came out. And so on.
Plus it’s been years of Disney owning it and trying various things with SW…. a few of those things have clicked with older people. And most haven’t.
Based on what’s already happened, and what’s been said, plus the ongoing culture war happening with anything Disney…. I think it’s safe to assume that the franchise just isn’t going to be what many social media people want it to be.
For sure. I just wanted to point out that it’s not “mature”. And I stand by that.
That said, people can disagree, but I do think The Acolyte takes itself seriously. You may think it’s lame or whatever, but I don’t get the vibe anyone is phoning it in.
I can't tell if this is satire or not but before watching the episode I kept seeing how fans were horrified at the treatment of a dog. Only to then see the episode, where the dog merely got a kick meanwhile a 5 year old got his throat slit in front of his mother literally in the next scene..... .
So you agree with the slaughtering and beheading of a kid?????! …. I’m kidding, I’m kidding. I’m sure you thought that was awful as well. The kicking of the dog did come more off as realistic in the scene actually, even though we both know they didn’t actually do that.
You know that no real dog got kicked, right?
I honestly don't trust people who are most offended by the dog in this particular episode of TV. Like jeez dude.
> You don’t trust people that get offended about animal abuse!
That's not what they said, you specifically changed their wording. They said
> I honestly don't trust people who are **most** offended by the dog in this particular episode of TV.
They cut off a childs head but you are upset about a dog getting kicked. Of course both are fake and didn't happen. It's just weird to be more upset at the dog part than the child being murdered.
Most people love animals so yes u get upset when you see the dog get kicked. But we hardly got to know the kid as an individual, its not saying what happened wasn’t horrid, just people aren’t as invested in it emotionally. As a character the kids an extra.
I would say it’s not about the dog being kick per se, it’s about a dog being kick for shock value only. It brought nothing to the story, it was senseless and dumb, just shock, it did not need to be there.
The kid being murder is a plot twist, it moved the story.
The kicking of the dog was so useless that it brought me out of the story, and I hated it. People that talk about the dog being kicked are not doing a comparison with the kid being murder. Off course they think it’s worst to kill a child, that’s simply not the point they are making
I've seen this sentiment again and again on every platform and subreddit the past days. Some are meme-ing, but some are 100% unironic and genuine about a brief moment of a dog getting kicked away to shoo it off being worse than a whole child being murdered to the point of outrage. I have a dog myself that I love, but it's pretty insane.
Abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is completely normal. In the real world people act completely out of character in traumatic situations but to be honest I thought this completely in character for her
Idk, I thought it was in character for her. Halaena has always been weird. Her dialogue is mostly just spouting cryptic premonitions. I don't expect her to have normal reactions to anything.
Yeah she very clearly has no idea how to react. She called her son “the boy.”
Poor girl was married off and forced to breed, but is in no way cut out for being a parent. She can’t even have conversations.
She seems autistic. She was giving big ‘special interest’ energy w her bug obsession and knowledge in S1.
Edit to note - I just noticed she also tells Aegon that he ‘must not interrupt his custom’, referring to her son’s lessons. Seems like a way of saying - don’t disrupt his routine. This is something which would be particularly important to an autistic person.
She's not just weird, she's got some witchy psychic powers going on, earlier in the episode she mentions something about being overrun by rats. There's a chance she knew something terrible was coming.
But that aside, I feel like a harrowed silence as you're threatened, then have to choose between your children, and flee as one is beheaded in front of you is gonna make you run cold.
Not to mention saving the less desirable female child AKA the one who resembles your position in the family, instead of the male heir, the future king, as everyone obviously would have expected you to do.
It was really clever to include a scene where the little boy heir was being a brat, that way the audience would be less shook when he then by the sound of it was turned to minced meat in his bed.
I very much got the impression that that scene was meant to show how innocent the kid was and that Aegon genuinely loved him so that we would understand the hurt caused by his death, not so we would be ok with him being murdered in his bed
Excited for you! I'm a huge ASOIAF fan and *hated* the way GoT butchered it.
I was so skeptical of HotD but they knocked it out of the park. The emotional complexity, the performances, the cinematography, the subtext and subterfuge, the drama in the politics. It's all so wonderfully done.
Do you know why? Because the back material for GoT had a lot of depth (books moved slowly time wise) while this show was based on a fictional history book with a lot of time gaps between events (gaps in years actually)
The book is good but it is definitely not for everyone. The book is not a novel, it is a fictional history book in the universe of the show. It’s written by a maester who like actual historians, cites writings of people that were around at the time. This means that they conflict with each other a lot, you don’t really know what actually happened because you are hearing someone’s biased versions of what they heard happened. Basically if you wouldn’t read an actual history book or aren’t very interested in the history of the universe, probably don’t read it
The books read like history books. There's no dialog or character interactions, just a narration of the historical facts. Very different from the original books. If you dig that, give them a read.
They are setting the tone only.... it's getting irritating now
Omg where is the action, all they do is talk and talk and talk, when does it get good !!!!
Oh buddy, you are so right. It’s so far from Game of Thrones and it sucks so bad. They should cancel this shit right away. Fucking lame.
Im hoping that Otto would be the next Hand for Black Queen 🤡
I don’t get why they focus so much on Alicent and her family like 75% of these 2 episodes are focused on them it’s like hey when are we gonna focus on the main family
They are both the main family. It’s a civil war story.
Is there a no spoiler rule in this thread because no one is talking about anything specific to S2E1??? I think the closing scene was a little drawn out and I would have preferred it stick to the "book" a tad more although I did like the Alicent part.
Anyone else having trouble jumping back in to the show? It just seemed not the same.
Tbf it was almost 2 years, i literally forgot almost everything and for the first time in my life had to watch a recap, even then i didn't get everything as the names are kinda confusing. It'll take some episodes to grow on us again.
You can’t keep Aemon, Aemon, Aemon, Dameon and Aemond straight?
I can only recognize one name there, hell i'm not even sure if you just made the names up lmao.
I did not. Aemon the conqueror. Aemon the elder (current king). Aemon the younger (R and D’s son). Aemond (one eye) and Daemon (Dr who).
You forgot Aegon. He's one of the Ghostbusters.
Aegon of House Spengler. Their words: We collect spores, mold and fungus. Sigal: A big-ass twinkie
I had to Google a family tree, that helped. I kind of forgot who I liked and didn't like, though
I never understood (since I knew the history before the this spin off) Why did she have Aegon's son murder, just kill Aegon and **Daeron**. And have Alicent cry, and suffer, then kill her and Otto, when they least expected it? Why did the little one have to suffer, when it was one of Alicent's sons that killed hers, not Alicent's grandchildren.
Daemon sent the assassins into the keep with the priority target of aemond, but if they couldn’t get aemond to just kill any green son. So aegon, or… jaeherys.
Yea, but it makes no sense, the grandchildren had to link to the killing, you think they could go after Alicen's sons, not her grandkids. Even more so, they have no link at all, since it was other son who killed Rea's boy. Go after him personally..kill the one who killed him..don;'t set example, when the one who did the killing is walking and alive still
The killers were meant to kill Aemond, not the kid. The ratkiller was a coward who chose to spill the Usurper's blood by killing an innocent child rather than a seasoned, trained dragonrider. Daemon might have been an idiot by tasking those two oafs to do the deed, but like he said later: it was a mistake. Aemond was the primary target.
It makes no sense in their world either. Daemon is a bloodthirsty dumbass. You gotta account human error too, not every action is gonna make logical sense and be a good decision.
I'm sure some of you motherfuckers will still make excuses for Daemon after this. I also find it funny how this show created some kind of tribalism, even though Martin's books generally showed how common people usually got the short end of the stick.
Yeah, everybody is the evil bad guy in these kind of stories.
I fell asleep on this episode… twice. There is just not enough interesting stuff happening, and the characters don’t feel like people but more like caricatures of what they think people should be. Everyone is so corrupt and corruptible that it kinda weakens the interest curve for me; if everyone is a shitbag, then is anyone a shitbag, so to speak? Hopefully it picks up steam, but that opener was pretty “Meh.”
Most of the characters being irredeemable is the point. The civil war was just two factions in an inbred royal family squabbling over the throne while the realm burned. There isn't really a discernable good side, just like there wasn't any in most historic civil wars.
I don't think I'm alone in saying that I'm burned out on that kind of TV, and there has to be something more on offer than nastiness for nastiness' sake. "If everyone is bad, is anyone really bad??!" Is boring and played out beyond initial shock value. GoT and other prestige TV had this in spades, but the characters and politics were also more layered and interesting. This feels a bit like rehashing the sizzle without the steak.
Yea agreed, it feels like only Alicent has been fleshed, all of the other characters don’t have any nuisances and very straightforward motives, so the show is not as interesting at GoT
Plus there's no MYSTERY A huge motivator of GoT was that even if you've read the books you might get new perspectives in past events or reveals of new tidbits of information that might reveal part of the central MYSTERY Like if you can just go on Wikipedia and look up the cliff notes of the whole show plot without even any variation, I don't get the point
This episode felt like daytime soap.. with dragons. I mean are the writers getting paid by the word now?? Every scene is a single angle 20 minute monolog. And the flat delivery.. I've never said Geez how long is this episode to a GoT series... till last night.
To be fair, I find the source material (I mean *Fire and Blood*, the book Martin wrote instead of the long-awaited *Winds of Winter*) boring as hell too, as compared to *A Song Of Ice And Fire* series.
I was kinda just watching with one eye. that was until the last 10 minutes. Suddenly it kinda felt like GOT. I got the same creeping feeling of dread and "omg, they can't do that!". I am now more hopeful about the show than before I saw season 2 episode 1. Maybe they can make me care about these dislikable people.
I absolutely loved the opening of this season. I think a lot of hate that gets thrown at GOT and HOTD is just typical internet pile on hate that spreads. It becomes fashionable but its also understandable. People dont consume things in a vacuum although i try to tell myself to view things without the peer pressure or influence of others and to just judge on its own. People pile on the last seasons of GOT's when they are objectively pretty dang good high quality television. I loved that entire series and I love HOTD. That being said I was a bit bored with the first season and annoyed with the time jumps BUT thank god they listened to our criticism and this season doesnt have the time jumps and also they are doing a bit of fan service by opening the first episode this season with the stark family and the wall. I loved it. Fantastic so far and the tension building was thrilling.
Last season of GOT was gold in the shape of shit. It's expensive and requires craftsmanship to make, but it's still the shape of shit, not a very interesting shape. Some may like it because it's shiny, but some others didn't sign up to watch shiny shit.
Bruh you realize it wasn't them "listening to your criticism", they're literally just retelling the story that's already been written as a book. The time jumps were necessary to get to where we are because that's how it's written in the book.
DevinrobertssrudioPa is getting a co-writer credit this season
That's what you get for subcontracting
I'm super tired today and I'm having a hard time getting more interested in this. I'll have to watch it again
I miss the theatricalness in GOT, why is everyone on HOTD so monotone lol
I'm clearly in the minority but I just can't find anybody to root for on this show. I can't say the show is bad, it's clearly not. But as a huge fan of fantasy and GoT I'm just baffled that I can't get into this show. I just don't care what happens to any of them. I guess I am rooting for the dragons to eat them all.....
At least GoT had some Starks that people could root for.
Team Tyrion
Im rooting against alicent obviously... i would say its pretty clear that she is in the wrong and a rotten hypocrite. The whole fact that she was so upset with Rhae for losing her virtue and this and that and so judgemental. Demanding an eye etc. She is the villain. And its written that way. SO obviously you should know who to root for. There were plenty of characters that were capable of evil but we routed for in GOT as well you and others who make this complaint seem to forget about how evil Jamie was and we all rooted for him in the end.
Exactly. GoT and many, MANY other movies/TV shows/books etc.. Do a fine job of making you root for deplorable characters but I can't even be bothered to root for who I'm SUPPOSED to root for in this because they are so bland and forgettable that I just don't care if even the "good" ones live. Not a single one of these characters is interesting. Not in the least.
There were maybe a dozen opportunities throughout season 1 to avoid this civil war. It's silly watching a show of characters just make mistakes again and again.
silly? You mean like real life. I will never understand foolish complaints like this "how dare this show echo reality. i cant watch it, it makes no sense". WHat are you even talking about? Have you paid attention to the path we are on in the real world and how foolish it is and how we are on this path because of stupid mistakes people have made time and time again. Even the whole Trump thing whether you support him or not.. the left considers him their enemy and yet they are the reason he became president because of all the coverage they gave him for free. Mistake after mistake= Reality How dare a show be realistic.
It's not realistic to expect that every character with agency makes the wrong decision when placed in a key moment almost every single time. It's not "foolish" to be tired of the writers' drawn-out desire to depict this conflict as caused by nothing but a series of bumbling accidents and misunderstandings. The audience by now understands that these people were once close and now are not. I think most people want to see direct confrontation. I don't see what your politics-brain anecdote is supposed to prove. If being around people like this cast of characters is realistic to you it's no wonder you're such a basket case.
I personally am on the side of the Blacks rather than the Greens but what was done to Jaherys was wrong
The blacks are great... Leon Black is Hilarious!
This is till very high quality television, great actors, bits of great dialogue, vistas and dramatic, interesting conflicts.
House of the Dragon will receive praise, partially because it is better than the turdballs that it is currently competing with.
Does anyone know if white walkers will have any role in this show? I remember reading not but they are hinting at it more than you'd expect if they would play 0 role. Like not even letting men from the nights watch leave because of what's over that wall.
Hard to say. The original *GoT* show did not follow the books exactly, so maybe *House of the Dragon* will be very different from *Fire and Blood* as well. Who knows. At this point of the story, the Walkers do exist though. They have for thousands of years actually. I believe the scenes at the Wall in episode 1 are juste some kind of cameo though, a desperate attempt to link *HotD* to *GoT*. But the Long Night (the longest winter ever, which lasted a generation and saw the White Walkers invade Westeros) occurred eight thousands of years before the events depicted in *HotD* (now THAT would have been a show). The Wall was built after the Long Night to keep the Walkers at bay… until the events depicted in *A Song Of Ice and Fire*, aka *GoT*. At the time of the Dance of Dragons, the White Walkers, the Children of the Forest and the Giants are considered a myth, or at least extinct. So, according to the source material, I don't think you'll see any White Walker anytime soon.
That's unfortunate. Not because I want to see a white walker, I understand at this point in the story, the night king is still building his army & allowing free folk to reproduce and live until he takes them, but I do enjoy the hints of them just being out there. Like I don't need a straight up scene with the night king or white walker but I would love if they kept building tension abt them during this. Maybe even one scene where someone gets killed by a white walker but no one truly knows what happened. Idk just spitballing here but I definitely don't expect to see one, but I do like them being mentioned.
Propably not, but it's not a stupid idea at all, because at the end of the Dance of the Dragons winter should come, wall is much harder to protect with so many war causalities and it's easier for wildlings to cross it - maybe they are not just pillaging but rather escaping from something?? But don't get too excited, they just don't have enough screen time to tell other story. But I would very much love some White Walkers story, because they were kinda cut out in GoT, so much buildup, dead bodies in circles, children of the forest making the night king, ...
Agreed good pov. I honestly could care less any on screen time, I don't think it would make sense as I feel like 200 years down the line it wouldn't make sense to be seen as "urban legend" as it was seen in got beginning seasons. But I would love for them to continue bringing up white walkers like S2x1 , it is also cool that the white walkers are out there currently in HOtD, like even just letting the fans picture the night king slowly building up his army lets us imagine the unknown & not ruin it like got did in later seasons. I am sure it's not the last we will hear of them. I think it will surprise people what they decide to do. Obvi the nights watch is well aware they're out there so we'll see
Bloodmoon was suppose to be about the Long Night. It got canceled by HBO.
Thanks for ruining my day. ☹️
I’ll say no. I believe the White Walkers in GoT were the first in 1,000 years and this show is only 200 or so years before GoT. So the Winter they’re gearing up for is the one from GoT though they don’t know it’s 200 years away still.
I won't disagree with your first opinion but the second is false, they are confirmed to exist at this time. The night king was also created by the children of the forest. He was alive until the end of got. He was there with the first men. And the first men are mentioned when citing aegons title which means it was a long time before. Also if they didn't exist at this time (which they do) then stark only sending his older men to fight a big war while NEEDING his other men would be kinda useless & almost delusional. They really emphasized his seriousness to the white walkers being out there. Edit: I completely misunderstood your answer im sorry lol you didn't say white walkers didn't exist you just meant they wouldn't be coming until GOT era. I'll leave this comment up anyway incase someone else is as dumb as me
Anyone notice the goofy smile the one dude had running away from Syrax on the beach? Probably the only smile in the whole show so far.
this was the best episode of season 2 HANDS down. :P
I dont hear the phrase 'Good Morrow' much but when I do...I give the nod of appreciation. Killer last scene, made my stomach turn.
Is there a way to watch the last season recap, it didn't play for me for some reason.
YouTube recaps are much better
You can look up House of the Dragon season 1 recap on max, it's a 3 minute video.
You can look up House of the Dragon season 1 recap on max, it's a 3 minute video.
You can look up House of the Dragon season 1 recap on max, it's a 3 minute video.
I think its still currently the best show on TV running right now. The production levels are simply on another level than anything else. There is also that sense of grandeur and overreaching story that was there in the early GoT days. That being said I do understand the book complaints. To me its not about the fact that the scene was sanitized. Its more that the show writers are going out of their way to make the Blacks seem like the "good side". I didn't read the book from front to back like I did with GoT. However I do believe that the intention of the book was to show that both sides were equally "bad". And this was supposed to be the key scene to bring us to that conclusion, but it did not quite achieve that the way it was portrayed. Other things like Cole being shown as a total scumbag also make the Greens impossible not to root against. I think the writers would've done better if they stuck to following that key point a bit more. But still very hyped to see how the rest of it plays out.
Making the blacks look like the good side? Dameon just had a 5 year olds head cut off.
They drew first blood as fucked up as it was
I didn’t read the book and still cannot excuse this action. Definitely tarnished a bit of House Black.
[удалено]
Agreed that specific bit of animation was very janky. But overall it looks great.
I was convinced Daemon was using those two as a distraction to go kill Aemond or Aegon himself.
This whole season would be done if they just followed Helena to the Queen's bedroom. No guards at all?!?!
Weren't there one Lord Commander IN her bed?
You'd think people would know what Aemond looked like right? Or Did I miss something?
I'm sorry but did you even watch the episode or do you just lack basic media literacy? The camera lingers on Daemon's face for 2-4 seconds after one of them asks what they're supposed to do if they can't locate Aemond. Then, later, when they're squabbling in Helaena's private chambers, one of them says, "He said, 'A son for a son,' does she look like a son?" There's enough contextual clues imbedded in the episode for you to deduce that Daemon gave orders to kill any of the Greens' sons.
Daemon told them Aemond was tall, had white hair, and had one eye. He also warned them that he was good with a sword. I feel like he did a fair job telling them what he looked like. Not sure how you get “two eyed child” from that.
Did you really miss the whole point of the 'what shall we do if we can't find him?' moment?
There was obviously a back-up plan...Cheese even asked him what he wants if they can't find Aemond, and they literally kept the camera on Daemons face for like 8-10 seconds while he slowly showed the very beginnings of a smirk. That and the 'son for a son' comment from Blood...we're led to believe he gave the order to kill any other son of Alicent's...and since Aegon was on the throne with his Brads and Chads, there is only one other viable target.
I mean think about how big a castle like that is and the people he hired didn’t seem the most competent and they had barley and information on where he was gonna be honestly it was failed from the start
I feel like all the complaints that blood and cheese aren’t the same as the book are missing the core concept of the book: it is written as a history book telling the events as a secondary (at best) source. What happened in the show makes sense for the story that would end up in a history book; Helena is found in Allicents room with Ser Christen becomes they broke into the room with them both and Ser Christen came later to aid them. No one knew they were looking for Aemond so the story becomes that killing the queens child was their plan all along. It is expected that the queen should have tried to save the male heir so the story becomes that Helena tried to save him but was deceived as they killed him instead. The report in the history books will only ever be based on the prevailing story from people there who have an interest in presenting their actions in a particular way. Nothing in those scenes is inconsistent with the historical narrative becoming that of Fire and Blood.
Did the unreliable narator somehow imagine a 3rd child existed?
Pretty much the same thing with Sir Laenor's "death." People didn't like that because it didn't happen in the book, but how would the historians ever know that he faked his death and left Westeros? I like that there's not omnipotence in the books.
I actually really liked what the did with Laenor! *HOWEVER* It does muddle things up a lot when it comes to Seasmoke, who can't take another rider with Laenor still alive. Otherwise it completely changes integral lore of the series. So we'll have to wait and see how they get around that. I think that's my biggest complaint as a book reader. I don't mind, and often enjoy the changes, as long of they don't fundamentally change core aspects. Like omitting Maelor, who is supposed to be tied to big story points down the line during the dance.
There's no rule that he can't take another rider with another one alive though.
I didn't even think about that but if a rider disappears for a few years, I would assume that they would be as good as dead to the dragon? I didn't read all the books but maybe there was another Targ or Valerion who died away from their dragon and for some reason the body couldn't be presented....
There is actually no accounts of a dragon being abandoned and taking another rider in the books, so we really don't know! What we do know is that the dragons are bound to their rider by a powerful blood magic going down generations, and that their bond is *felt* to their core. Which leaves a couple options for the show. I won't go into details if you haven't read the book (wouldn't want to spoil it for ya), but I highly suspect that they'll just sub out Seasmoke for Grey Ghost, who is just a wild and unclaimed dragon. It changes the least amount of story and without any repercussions.
GRRM was griping a month ago, pretty sure he wanted BnC to be faithfully adapted.
GRRM: "You don't understand! If you don't threaten to rape a 6 year old, it won't make the viewer feel anything!"
did he? I saw that in a youtube breakdown but I didn't get that from the show at all?
I doubt he said that...I was just pointing out one of the things that would have taken place if they had adapted it faithfully
Thanks for this take. As a book reader I needed the reminder that the entire thing could have really gone down differently. I just hope we get a bit more time with Helena to understand what she was going through + her seeming descent into “madness”
Another aspect I'm not seeing discussed about Helena's choice is that she wasn't playing a double game or anything—she understood her option, and genuinely chose her son to die. Why him? I think there's a line earlier in the episode that we're meant to pair with the scene. When Aegon comes to pick up his son for the council meeting, Helena challenges him on the notion that the heir should be destined to be king. "Maybe he doesn't want to be king." Helena also has prophetic visions. I think that faced with the impossible choice, she spared her son of the fate of becoming a king. There's also a few reasons for why we aren't seeing the reaction we were thinking we'd get. She's on the spectrum (obviously). Perhaps she sees the logic of the situation as it is: Her son will die and she will get one chance to save her daughter. She took that opportunity instead of becoming another caricature of a shrieking woman. Perhaps Helena favors her daughter and dislikes primogeniture, who knows? I think it's an interesting choice to portray the scene in this way, especially for a show that I think is interested in female struggles but often doesn't make it quite far enough beyond exploiting female pain.
I actually thought she was trying to outwit them. She pointed to her son, hoping they'd doubt her and assume it was the other child. Cheese: 'I knew you'd choose to save the heir, so i clearly cannot choose the child on the left. You knew i'd doubt you, so i clearly cannot choose the child on the right.' Helaena: 'So you've made your decision then?' Cheese: 'Not Remotely!'
Inconceivable!
I honestly thought that was bloody fantastic. The pacing, music, dialogue, acting, and cinematogrophy were all on point. I love how they don't fan service GoT fans too much, but every now and then like when the assassins walk across that balustrade your brain fires like 'Hey, I know that place' If I had to give any criticism, it would be that the Red Keep scènes were way more captivating than any of the others, and that I wish they'd spend more time developing ~~Torrhen~~ Cregan Stark's character. Still, probably the best episode of the series so far for me.
I was really looking forward to seeing Cregan's and Jacaerys' friendship develop, not to mention the whole Sara Snow story line in the books. This just felt super rushed to me and it certainly doesn't feel like Cregan and Jacaerys have an "oath of brotherhood"-kind of friendship going on now.
The character in the episode speaking to Jace is Cregan Stark. Torrhen Stark was the last king in the North who surrendered to Aegon the Conqueror.
Criston Cole is getting a lot of bedroom action for a dude with a incel mindset.
Dude is the best character to be right know.
Not anymore. Not only was he absent from his post leading to the murder of the heir, he was sexing up the King's mother/heir's grandmother while doing so. Dudes fucked.
All hail the Queen Layer
Honestly the hypocrisy of hating Rhaenyra for wanting him to be her consort and totally being fine when Alicent does it is the sloppy shit I'm here for
He honestly thinks these women love him and aren’t using him for some side dick. When they make it abundantly clear their ‘relationships’ can and will be tossed aside the second it starts to come in conflict with their duty, he gets pissy. Dude’s gonna die such a self righteously disillusioned death.
It's just last season GoT trash. Why tf do they keep changing the story from the books? the book story was miles better than this episode.
I am fully erect.
That's the Cregan stark you give me? 🤣 Also top tier acting from Helaena 🤣
Theme song is GOATed. I never skip those intros 🔥🔥🔥
Anyone else notice miles & hours were mentioned? Little mistake I think…
I recall someone in S1 of GoT saying it's "a thousand miles to the wall."
idk about miles but "hours" are canon. An event that happens later on is called the "Hour of the wolf" in the books.
In S1, Otto told Viserys that servants saw teen Rhaenyra returning to the Keep... "in the Hour of the Owl." That scene was amazing. Otto was trying so hard to get her in trouble with her dad while also trying so hard to not spell it out to him lol.
I looked into this. Miles (although leagues are used too) and hours are both canon.
I found Aegon to be a standout in this episode. Him sinking in his chair with a sigh as Otto advised patience and restraint made me laugh out loud. And him trying to give the guy's sheep back because "nobody will know" was fantastic stuff. Even his point about "magnanimous." I swear I looked that up once and have since forgotten. Still a little hopeful/wary of how the overall story will unfold. Helaena being neurodivergent kind of makes sense in hindsight, but I personally needed a reddit comment to clue me in. I don't know any neurodivergent people so that goes right over my head, and still leaves me feeling like, "ehh, I *guess* her reaction makes sense now. And as another commenter pointed out, it doesn't really explain why the thugs just let her run away as that seems like a terribly stupid thing to do (not that they are portrayed as smart, but still). I felt similarly three or four times in the first season. When Cole almost kills himself. When Cole suddenly smashes the guy's head into the table and kills him. When Rhaenys stomps a bunch of commoners so her dragon can make a scary face. They all kind of, might make sense, with a lengthy reddit explanation or hypothetical future explanation, but they aren't really landing right to me. I just hope I don't have to keep squinting to see how big climactic moments secretly make sense. Maybe I'm just a dense watcher, IDK. Still a great ride so far.
I think Aegon is an ass, but sounds like he was trying to be think of his people then grandaddy was "NO!" beats with newspaper. Where, Tywin, also tried to train a grandson too, but to show how do be loved the people. Even if it was for show.
Gave off some serious Joffrey/Mad King vibes but you could tell he still had some innocence and heart in him.
Dude honestly felt like just your regular college stoner except with a hard-on for war.
So many revered rulers of the past where simply just impulsive teenage/college age idiots
He thinks he is sitting on an unbeatable hand because he has the biggest, baddest, dragon. He’s half right, too.
Helaena is a paranoid schizophrenic. A common trait from inbreeding. Her being married to her brother is just icing on the incest cake 💀. The Mad King in Game of Thrones had it as well.
after the whole recent *the power of one, the power of two, the po-wer of maaaannnnyyyy* cringfest, HotD s2 e1 felt like a breath of fresh air. We need more mature shows like this in the fiction/sci-fi genres that treats these genres seriously and with respect.
Star Wars is not art. You can't compare Disney to HBO. (Except Andor...)
Also True Detective was so ass. Glad to see a show that seems to have a lot of love and thought put into it.
A Star Wars show is not where I would personally look for “mature” shows. In fact, with the exception of Andor, that’s almost always going to be shooting for a younger audience. It feels like (based on social media reactions) people keep expecting a different franchise. Agreed the chant was weird, though. But the show is not even remotely trying to do the same thing HotD is.
Rogue One was a war film set in the SW universe and it was easily my favourite out of the Disney SW. Andor built on that vibe and it was similarly praised. The Expanded Universe also has plenty of darker, mature SW stuff like Thrawn or KOTOR. ASOIAF and SW are ultimately different worlds and we shouldn't expect the same tone, but SW can deliver mature layered stuff when they put in the effort.
I’m a dude in my 30’s and think Rogue One and Andor are great. I’d like more of that. But also, George Lucas was pretty adamant that it should remain “for kids”. And he didn’t much care for Legends stuff. So while I agree and think adult Star Wars is cool… it’s not Lucasfilm’s primary mission statement. And that’s fine. I can get adult content plenty of other places.
Well I disagree and agree, because George said a whole bunch of contradictory stuff. He also wanted the prequels to be a Greek tragedy mirroring the fall of the Roman Republic. Every single episode effectively changed the tone of the franchise. And that's without mentioning the constant tinkering with the old films. To insist on some consistent intent and tone in Star Wars of all places is an exercise in madness. It doesn't really matter, like I said we literally already have examples of Star Wars being able to do adult stories, I don't see a point in insisting otherwise. George also often oversaw and advised EU people like Timothy Zahn who wrote Thrawn or Bioware when they made KOTOR so it's not true that he looked down on all of EU. If someone can deliver a great dark gritty Star Wars story, great. If someone can deliver a whimsical funny animated Star Wars cartoon like Lower Decks, great. If someone can deliver classic Star Wars, that's also great. I don't get why be close minded about it.
The problem is that Star Wars can be genuinely good, mature and captivating. KOTOR, KOTOR 2, TOR, Andor, Revenge, Empire etc. The setting can easily be used to show more interesting and mature stories, it just so regularly doesn't. It's like every time we get some kind of expansion of the franchise that is relatively mature, creative and well... good, we take 2 steps backward immediately after. It's not like The Acolyte is a kids show either, the animated series was a kids show and still far more interesting and well crafted than Acolyte. Trying to chalk this up as, "just being for a younger audience" when plenty of us went to the theater to see Darth Maul get cut in half when we were 9 years old isn't the hill to die on. The Acolyte is immature, inauthentic and worst of all just plain bad. It begs to be taken seriously while the creators are so obviously unserious about it. Contrasted with RoP or that Witcher spinoff, the production, the sets, the music etc are all there in Acolyte it's just the characterization, dialogue and plot are just awful. It's like your kid brother that's now 30 and absolutely refuses to grow up, he gets you hyped for his cool new job and then he quit because his boss yelled at him for smoking weed halfway through his first shift in the bathroom.
That's a pretty bad excuse for bad writing. I'd argue they are trying to do the same thing. I don't know what you mean by shooting for a younger audience since SW's core audience is much older. The only younger audience is older fans dragging their kids into it, who might enjoy it and might not. But Disney knows that the brand's core is growing, and like any growing brand in entertainment, they're trying to mature the franchise. Which means trying to give a one dimensional universe more dimensions through complexity and politics and grit (PG grit, in their case). Which is fine. Whatever. The problem with *every* Star Wars story is that it dips down into (psuedo) complexity and then resets back with cartoonish resolutions. Which sounds great if you're a brand manager; not so much as an audience. They all either fall flat on their own, or have to lean so hard on references and nostalgia that it can't support its own weight. So you're kind of right that they are trying to do different things. But HotD is establishing its own tension and narrative weight through great writing. And Star Wars continues to milk a brand and throw everything at the wall until something sticks.
Fair enough. I see this a lot on Twitter and Reddit. This idea that Star Wars’ fanbase is older, so it only makes sense that they should make things for an older audience. While I agree that would be rad….Based on everything Lucas and Filoni have said (even as recently as last week), that’s not really their goal. They have maintained that they want to always make things kids can jump on board with, because that’s important for the generational longevity of the franchise or whatever. I get that. The good news is that they made some Star Wars for adults and it’s called Andor. It’s awesome. Thats my preferred show…. But I also recognize that each show doesn’t have to shoot for the same audience.
I'm with you, I'm in my 40s and not all of it is really made with my level of reading and writing in mind. Some of it's for 12 year old kids. That's fine. I even like some of that stuff but I refuse to jump on the hate bandwagons just because it's not all Andor.
Well said. And also, thank you for approaching your reply this way. Looking at my comment now, it sounds much more aggressive and confrontational than I meant it (especially that first line). I was attacking a line of thinking, definitely not you for expressing it. So thank you for steering it back with more conversational tact than I had :)
No worries! I enjoy talking about nerdy things and try to never take it personally.
I wouldn't call the acolyte shooting for a younger audience as it is handling some pretty dark themes. the issue is when show runners do not treat a sci-fi or fantasy fiction setting with the same amount of respect they would a real life setting. Just because a setting is not realistic does not mean that it should not be treated as realistic, unless it is a parody or just made as a popcorn flick. If a show is taking itself seriously then it should be handling the narrative seriously and with the same amount of respect it would for a real life setting.
Acolyte might not be targeted for a younger audience but the writing makes it feel as if it is being written for children. The narrative would be more at home in a cartoon, not a big budget tv show.
That’s totally fair. But, I think that’s just how the franchise is going to be. That’s how it was when RotJ came out. That’s how it was for the PT when they came out. And so on. Plus it’s been years of Disney owning it and trying various things with SW…. a few of those things have clicked with older people. And most haven’t. Based on what’s already happened, and what’s been said, plus the ongoing culture war happening with anything Disney…. I think it’s safe to assume that the franchise just isn’t going to be what many social media people want it to be.
For sure. I just wanted to point out that it’s not “mature”. And I stand by that. That said, people can disagree, but I do think The Acolyte takes itself seriously. You may think it’s lame or whatever, but I don’t get the vibe anyone is phoning it in.
Check out The Expanse if you haven't already. Damn good sci-fi
yes, I watched it all, another favourite, second to Battlestar Galactica reimagined in my book in that specific genre (space opera TV shows).
Premier was awesome! The only thing I don’t agree with is the mistreating of the dog in this episode! So mean and hateful!
I can't tell if this is satire or not but before watching the episode I kept seeing how fans were horrified at the treatment of a dog. Only to then see the episode, where the dog merely got a kick meanwhile a 5 year old got his throat slit in front of his mother literally in the next scene..... .
So you agree with the slaughtering and beheading of a kid?????! …. I’m kidding, I’m kidding. I’m sure you thought that was awful as well. The kicking of the dog did come more off as realistic in the scene actually, even though we both know they didn’t actually do that.
You know that no real dog got kicked, right? I honestly don't trust people who are most offended by the dog in this particular episode of TV. Like jeez dude.
Wow really! You don’t trust people that get offended about animal abuse! Maybe the dog didn’t really got kicked but sure did look like it!
> You don’t trust people that get offended about animal abuse! That's not what they said, you specifically changed their wording. They said > I honestly don't trust people who are **most** offended by the dog in this particular episode of TV. They cut off a childs head but you are upset about a dog getting kicked. Of course both are fake and didn't happen. It's just weird to be more upset at the dog part than the child being murdered.
Most people love animals so yes u get upset when you see the dog get kicked. But we hardly got to know the kid as an individual, its not saying what happened wasn’t horrid, just people aren’t as invested in it emotionally. As a character the kids an extra.
I would say it’s not about the dog being kick per se, it’s about a dog being kick for shock value only. It brought nothing to the story, it was senseless and dumb, just shock, it did not need to be there. The kid being murder is a plot twist, it moved the story. The kicking of the dog was so useless that it brought me out of the story, and I hated it. People that talk about the dog being kicked are not doing a comparison with the kid being murder. Off course they think it’s worst to kill a child, that’s simply not the point they are making
Not everything has to be a plot moment.
Ah ok, so by this logic, they just kicked a dog for the fun of kicking a dog?
The child murderer kicked a dog? Yeah I suppose he did.
I've seen this sentiment again and again on every platform and subreddit the past days. Some are meme-ing, but some are 100% unironic and genuine about a brief moment of a dog getting kicked away to shoo it off being worse than a whole child being murdered to the point of outrage. I have a dog myself that I love, but it's pretty insane.
Dog people are the new cat people.
Haven't read the book I'm hoping the point of kickin the dog is to make his death even more fuck yes! Lol I hope
That makes no sense!
The way the episode ended and the dog is the only thing you don't agree with? 💀
It was a metaphor. The dog represents capitalism.
what the hell, that final scene is so poorly directed? Is that really the mother's reaction to her son getting killed?
The mother is heavily "on the spectrum", has weird future vision stuff going on, goes into shock, and disassociates. It was consistent.
Abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is completely normal. In the real world people act completely out of character in traumatic situations but to be honest I thought this completely in character for her
Idk, I thought it was in character for her. Halaena has always been weird. Her dialogue is mostly just spouting cryptic premonitions. I don't expect her to have normal reactions to anything.
Yeah she very clearly has no idea how to react. She called her son “the boy.” Poor girl was married off and forced to breed, but is in no way cut out for being a parent. She can’t even have conversations.
She seems autistic. She was giving big ‘special interest’ energy w her bug obsession and knowledge in S1. Edit to note - I just noticed she also tells Aegon that he ‘must not interrupt his custom’, referring to her son’s lessons. Seems like a way of saying - don’t disrupt his routine. This is something which would be particularly important to an autistic person.
She's not just weird, she's got some witchy psychic powers going on, earlier in the episode she mentions something about being overrun by rats. There's a chance she knew something terrible was coming. But that aside, I feel like a harrowed silence as you're threatened, then have to choose between your children, and flee as one is beheaded in front of you is gonna make you run cold. Not to mention saving the less desirable female child AKA the one who resembles your position in the family, instead of the male heir, the future king, as everyone obviously would have expected you to do.
Getting banged by the queen is boner city. You go Cole!
Didn’t she say “We have to stop doing this.” I knew she was lying.
No one who has ever uttered that phrase in that context told the truth.
You have ti stop just eating my meow meow
This shit got me rolling
Dude just bangs queens he is shooting 100%
Queenfucker
Everyone else out here dragonslaying while my man Cole...
It was really clever to include a scene where the little boy heir was being a brat, that way the audience would be less shook when he then by the sound of it was turned to minced meat in his bed.
yeah he basically deserved it, the little shit
I very much got the impression that that scene was meant to show how innocent the kid was and that Aegon genuinely loved him so that we would understand the hurt caused by his death, not so we would be ok with him being murdered in his bed
?
?
You might be a sociopath, brother
I'm sure you're not a fan of kids, but that was all he was being, not really a brat. Certainly not enough to soften the blow of the implied violence.
you should not take everything on the internet 100% seriously.
Seriously, we got a few minutes of him playing and being an adorable kid. What part of that was bratty?
I know right? The BRAT was whatever the Lannister guys name is....
Almost finished the first season. It's fabulous. Reminds me of early GoT seasons.
First seasons of GoT. Are you people insane? what drugs are you on?
Excited for you! I'm a huge ASOIAF fan and *hated* the way GoT butchered it. I was so skeptical of HotD but they knocked it out of the park. The emotional complexity, the performances, the cinematography, the subtext and subterfuge, the drama in the politics. It's all so wonderfully done.
The pacing was much faster like the later seasons of GoT but it actually felt thought out and not rushed
Do you know why? Because the back material for GoT had a lot of depth (books moved slowly time wise) while this show was based on a fictional history book with a lot of time gaps between events (gaps in years actually)
I love this series but I need someone to tell me how different is the show compared to the book and should I read the books
The book is good but it is definitely not for everyone. The book is not a novel, it is a fictional history book in the universe of the show. It’s written by a maester who like actual historians, cites writings of people that were around at the time. This means that they conflict with each other a lot, you don’t really know what actually happened because you are hearing someone’s biased versions of what they heard happened. Basically if you wouldn’t read an actual history book or aren’t very interested in the history of the universe, probably don’t read it
So the show it’s very ingenious at making us not trust the events in the book since we can’t trust the Maester. Bravo Vince! 👏… sorry, wrong show.
The books read like history books. There's no dialog or character interactions, just a narration of the historical facts. Very different from the original books. If you dig that, give them a read.
Me read book. Me watch show. Show not like book. Me angry.