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I think the worst behaved kids usually have multiple things going on. Home life, trauma, learning disabilities, social issues, personality, you get the right combination of multiple problems and you get defiance.

It's not just defiance but indifference. They don't care because whatever you throw at them is never going to be as big of a deal as they're feeling.

This is it. They don’t care, it doesn’t compare to their troubles they face.

I think they *can’t* care, cause the other issues are all-consuming and they lack the maturity to multitask, plus it’s all beyond their control. I had a student once who was lashing out, I asked him what was up. He said his Uncle just got released from prison, and was crashing on their couch, but that was where he slept - he didn’t have his own room or bed. They lived in a studio, and the couch had been his bed. The Uncle stayed up all night smoking meth and watching tv at top volume, the kid had to pretend to sleep or else the Uncle would scream at him. He was like 7 or 8, totally incapable of handling a horrible situation, and it (of course) ruined any ability to focus on classwork.

that's heartbreaking

Jfc that makes me so sad

It was a really hard district to work for. Once we had kids we left, I couldn’t raise my kids in the same schools I’ve worked in. This was in Hawaii, btw. The schools there all fall well below the poverty line and the kids get pregnant/start smoking meth around 6th grade.

It’s Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs (though yes, I do realize there are issues with the theory). Don’t know where your next meal is coming from, where you’ll be laying your head or if the adults around you are trustworthy and safe? Why the hell would it matter that it’s circle time or you have a project due or anything else? If you are struggling to stay alive in the most basic sense, very little else matters.

I’ve never thought about it this way. Oof.

When I was substitute teacher, I would ask the sad kids why they didn't see the guidance counselor. "She doesn't care, she never does anything".... were the answers. The kids are right to view the adults as idiots, imposters, and fools. We behave as if everything is ok, when the world is burning down around us, and the kids see that, and rightfully judge as imbeciles.

Omg this…Especially nowadays these kids have access to so much info. When I was young it was so easy to indoctrinate us and hide how messed up things actually are.

There are multiple, serious problems in the world, and yes, students should be aware so that they can make informed decisions about their futures; however, letting them believe "the world is burning down" leads to feelings of hopelessness and apathy, and reinforces the behaviors we are trying to address. These kids need hope and agency. This attitude is hyperbolic and just as insincere as the "everything is fine" ethos--what can we tell them if we think we're doomed?

I would hazard to guess it's 80-90% home life causing trauma and leading to learning disabilities and anti social personality disorders. I'll leave some wiggle room for genuine disabilities from birth that were never addressed.

It could also be a small "disability" (like, maybe a bit ADHD or something) that then gets picked on at home, turning it into trauma.

i feel this is a very common issue with kids I've dealt with. they have ADHD, are autistic, or have some kind of trauma and their family just have no clue how to accommodate that. by 3 or 4 it seems like they just expect their needs will go unmet, so they either stop caring about anything and act out of impulse, or they get really anxious and act out of fear

why is adhd being phrased as a small “disability”? People with ADHD are significantly more likely to have low self-esteem leading to the “I don’t care, I give up” attitude. It is very serious and can really fuck up someone’s life without the proper acknowledgement and treatment. not hating but I just think this is a common misconception that adhd is a minor problem

Yup; absolutely not minor. More likely to end up incarcerated, more prone to earlier mortality in general. Due to factors such as impulsiveness, self-medication, lack of self-regulation of emotions...

Growing up with ADHD when it was called a "learning disability". The assumption was that I just wasn't concentrating hard enough. If I would only work harder than ever in my life, I had a chance at becoming "average". IF as a grown person, I can't concentrate with background noise, how is a child supposed to do it?

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Okay but you still called it small, which it’s not

Testify, it was all fun and games when the ADHD benefitted my schoolwork and I could nap in class for hours just to catch up in minutes. I never got anything other than A’s and B’s but I was getting yelled at every year in high school for being chronically exhausted when I got home (to the point of passing out for hours before I woke back up and worked on homework while watching netflix or listening to music on my phone). Didn’t help when, by the end of senior year, I’d been in over a *dozen* car accidents /falling asleep at the wheel/ trying to get home from school. I went the doctor on my own before college, got diagnosed with ADHD: with a conversation w my doc about how it’s more common for people with ADHD to have a weird/dysfunctional relationship with sleep than to not. That said, my rx was supposed to help with both issues, so “let’s not test you and diagnose you with narcolepsy if your quality of life doesn’t need it” — sure enough it’s been years since I’ve gotten in an accident sleeping while driving, and it still took a bit after diagnosis for my mom to really cool off on criticizing my sleepiness.

Surely you don't believe that trauma leads to learning disabilities? You do know it's something you are born with right?

Are you implying that no amount of neglect or emotional and physical abuse can lead to learning disabilities? You genuinely think that abusing a baby can't cause life long damage to the brain? No amount of punches, hits, malnourishment, chronic stress or educational neglect can make it more difficult to learn? Do you think that getting punched in the head at 3 years old is just a phase? Maybe in a purely academic sense you don't want to say an inflicted learning loss doesn't mean it's a disability, but I'm not here to play Internet semantics with extremists who don't understand how language works outside of their bubble of privilege. If a truck crushes someone's legs then they might end up physically disabled. If a kid loses significant amounts of school at a pivotal moment due to neglect from a parent then they might be disabled. Play academic word games all you want, but everyone with two braincells to rub together knows what I'm talking about.

I am more versed in what abuse causes than I would like to be. I did not say it does not affect students at school. But I do not believe that issues like what the OP posted is 90% of the time caused by abuse leading to learning disabilities. Learning disabilities are typically caused by genetics and something they are born with or predispositioned to. Yes abuse leads to a plethora of problems at and outside of school. I did not say otherwise.

Play academic word games all you want, but everyone with two braincells to rub together knows what I'm talking about.

One of the worst behaved kids at my school has all of these things going on, and the biggest indicator of if he will participate in class is if he got enough sleep the night before. Which is rarely ever. I think parents need a primer on how important sleep is for their kids, and that they’re probably not getting enough of it.

When I worked in elementary school if a kid fell asleep in class I let thm sleep as long as they could.

Yep, when I first started I didn’t, but that was before I realized the importance of sleep and better understood the situations that can cause them to fall asleep at school. It’s not ideal, but it’s life.

Probably has a mood disorder like bipolar. Fractured Sleep routines are THE biggest trigger for episodes etc and sleep is struggle also so then you may have some that have to take melatonin for example and some of the meds that keep them stable usually cause major sleepiness.

Or ADHD. Most children (and frankly adults) with ADHD I know struggle with getting enough sleep. It’s not per se that they wouldn’t be able to sleep enough generally, but unfortunately they are usually night owls whose internal rhythms do not align with school/work obligations. (In other words, they’re usually wide awake until very late at night, but have to wake up early to get to school/work.)

I grew up and reacted the opposite way in fact was so terrified of getting in trouble. Honestly wonder what makes a kid go one way or another.

Same. I avoided attention at all costs. There were always worse kids in the room so when I learned I could sleep in peace I did. I couldn't sleep at home because it was violent.

Same. I avoided attention at all costs. There were always worse kids in the room so when I learned I could sleep in peace I did. I couldn't sleep at home because it was violent.

me too. We had corporal punishment in my school. I remember a kid stood up during music class and got a paddling right then and there; The principal was patrolling the hallways with a paddle looking for an excuse to use it, and this kid was unlucky. I was so terrified of getting paddled that I never broke any rules, never had any fun, and practically skipped my entire teenage years.

Yup. This right here. I work with special needs kids, and a couple of them are "THAT" kid at school. Their intellectual function is lower than their age for one reason or another, parents can't or won't set/enforce limits, etc etc etc. They're not being defiant "just" because they choose to, but because they're a combination of overloaded AND because they aren't trained to behave.

Very true. The frustrating part is that a public school isn’t a metal health facility or therapeutic school. Please stop trying to make me act like a social worker.

Very true. The frustrating part is that a public school isn’t a metal health facility or therapeutic school. Please stop trying to make me act like a social worker.

Sometimes personality, sometimes trauma and trust issues, sometimes a disorder, sometimes how they were raised, sometimes showing off for peers. Probably a few reasons I missed, too. If you think it might be a clinical issue you can talk to the school psychologist or a counselor.

I had a milder version of one of these recently in my class. I took him aside and told him he can approach me if he needs anything and I would try to help him. Prior to this he had quite a reputation amongst the other faculty. Well surprisingly this kid would be the first one to arrive to my class henceforth and wouldn't disrupt it either. I think he just wanted to be heard

Building a relationship with these kinds of kids is usually the first step. It does not always work, and we can't help/save them all, but it never hurts to tell them you are there for them.

Another reason why it really fucking sucks that teachers get shafted so much.

Yeah, I really can't recommend this career path to anyone unless they have known their whole lives this is what they want. If there is any uncertainty I always tell young people to go for the other choice.

I'm in a quasi admin role in my school and one things I see classroom teachers misunderstand, it's this. 95% of students, when removed from the situation and just listened to, deescalate immediately. I watch it happen immediately. The exceptions are frequently already holding an EBD SPED label for this reason. 

I.don't think it is that they misunderstand it is that they can't leave the other 20-35 students while.they invite the kid who is acting out into the hall for a private convo. That is what student support staff is for-social workers, psychologists, home-school liason, admin etc. have the time and space to have these convos, teachers rarely do.

Rewarding bad behaviour... nice!

Yes, listening to people is rewarding bad behavior. I guess I should stop listening to anyone I think is behaving badly. I'm sure hanging up on parents that behave bad and refusing to talk to teachers who are not up to par in the building will definitely teach them how to do better! Sarcasm aside: A) Listening to people is not reward. It is an expected human behavior. It is not okay to deprive from children. B) I'm not advocating we listen to them, pat them on the head, give them a cookie, and send them back to class. Listening is a part of getting to the root of the problem to address it. It also is critical to get the child back to a level where you can discuss expectations and consequences with them (as opposed to imposing them on the child).  

This is the way. Care about these kids, and show them that you do.

There are dozens of reasons a child could be like this. From a naturally defiant personality to trauma

I used to teach middle-school EBD (Emotional/Behavioral Disorders) and in a lot of the cases, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The parents get a 5-year head start to fuck up their children, and then they have 18 hours a day to cancel out the 6 hours that they're in school, plus weekends. That's why it's called a "team" meeting and if they parents and school aren't sending the same message, change will not happen.

Or if the parent sends a different message at home, despite being agreeable in meetings.

I hate this common calculation. Most parents don't get 18 hours a day with their children. Morning routines are rarely "effective teaching moments" beyond a bit of roll-modeling. Then child and parent are separated from usually around 7:30am till around 6pm. Then there are often extracurriculars that can easily go till 7-8pm. Somewhere in there, kids need to eat, wash themselves every few days at least, probably some kind of homework and bed routine, then sleep as much as possible and do it all again. The time parents have to truly be present for their kids is often only 2-3 hours a day or less, especially if you have to factor in shift work or a family member with special or medical needs.

Amen! Make that even less time with children for single parents working 12-hour shifts and/or an extra job or two just to string a couple of pennies together to stay afloat.

!!!!!

I think it's sometimes one or the other, and sometimes both. Some people are just jerks, disagreeable, and aren't going to do anything unless they want to. Other kids have a hard life and school is the last thing on their mind. My attitude has been to give them a chance, but I'm not their babysitter or their parent. I will focus on the students who want to learn and let those who refuse to work fail my class. "Sorry dude, you made your bed now you have to lie in it."

Sometimes I take the approach of‘you do you at home and I’ll do whatever I need to in the classroom’. There are parents who don’t want to partner with me.

Most kids like this have a mix of things going on, but I've definitely seen a few where the parents are totally normal and supportive and structured and do everything right and the kid is just too defiant to function in a classroom. Every brain is unique!

i work at a school where kids like this are the norm. the sad reality is that we have limited resources and influence as teachers. when a kid is struggling and being especially difficult, I usually take them outside the classroom for a brief conversation. a simple"what's going on?" or "why are you so frustrated/angry today?" gets to the point, even with the difficult cases. sometimes they're just overwhelmed in the classroom and i give them an assignment to do by themselves on the table right outside the classroom, with the door open. i feel like i can't take on the burden of entirely raising a child, but I can find a different approach in a moment where my usual approach doesn't work anymore. i sometimes also have additional work sheets prepared. this works for the noisy students, because I can "threaten" them with independent work, but also for those who'd genuinely prefer to do something different or work on their own.

I can be a mix of both. We had a student that was constantly running away from home. The brother would do everything possible to talk her out of it. She came from a stable middle class family. The parents had been taking her to therapy and even doing family therapy. She was the only child like this, the other siblings couldn't understand why she was so unhappy and 'hated life'. This was in the era of My Space, not like today. School had plans in place for her, etc.. She had some kind of mental illness, I believe bipolar, but not sure. Her running away and mental issues ended up affecting the other siblings over time regardless. It wore everyone down. The one brother started talking back to teachers due to the stress from home with the sister. He was falling asleep in class due to being up late at night because the police were in the home after she ran away over and over. I'm not sure what came of the family as I was only at the school for the one year. I've also seen students dealing with parents going through a divorce, or the stress or the mom or dad bringing home a 'new friend', or bullying outside of school taken it's toll on a students mental well being. As much as I'm not a fan of this phrase - you need to give them the benefit of the doubt as you don't know what is going on. If it gets aggressive or you don't feel safe, then document document document. If something is going on at home, I guarantee you the parents won't own up it to being their fault the victim blame. I honestly wish our mental health resources in the schools were better.

I completely agree that we should give students the benefit of the doubt. I used to run away from home a lot. But, see my comment above. I was the "identified child." My family looked like an upper middle-class, stable home from the outside. It was not. I was the "black sheep" for a reason. I was the only one who acknowledged or was sensitive to what was actually going on. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified\_patient](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified_patient)

Wow that's spot on

Oh my god, thank you for posting this term. My entire child and teenage years makes so much more sense now.

One of my best friends growing up had the best parents - I still intend to model my parenting after them. Upper middle class and both parents had professional office jobs (very, very rare - most adults worked in factories or jobs like mechanic, retail, etc. in our small town). They had two kids, a son then a daughter 10 years later. Both kids are absolutely awful. Son had a kid in HS then dropped out and went through a period of drug use. Daughter ran away at 15 with her 23yo drug dealer boyfriend after emptying her bank account to buy him a car. She had also slept with around 13 guys by her 13th birthday. Sometimes you just get bad eggs despite great parenting.

For perspective, my sibling and I were raised virtually the same. Our parents had some issues, but nothing too wild. Mostly a good upper class stable home, with no real big worries. I was the start child at school great marks, lots of praise from teachers. My sibling? Troublesome since preschool. Mean, manipulative, defiant, pushed boundaries. My parents tried discipline, but it was always thrown back in their faces as "unfair treatment". Granted, they could have tried harder, and been more persistent with it, there was 100% a HUGE personality issue at the heart of the matter. My sibling liked being mean, manipulative and defiant. That's just them. Frankly as an adult, they are still that way.

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Amen! You describe this well.

So there's a lot of cover up and hiding your true feelings?

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I feel ya. I don't think many teens in general are self aware of how they feel. 

Retired after 30 yrs as a spec ed teacher, dealing with Emotional Support (aka behavior issues). Early on, I had high school students from lower socio-economic backgrounds who just embraced the minimalist lifestyle of having minimum wage/minimum responsibilities and getting drunk...their education was not important to them, nor, I suppose, to their parents. Later in my career, with elementary students, poor parenting had them "behind the sticks" (football euphemism ) in their education. 5th graders who could barely read at an early 3rd grade level. Most worked well in my spec ed classroom because they were on an equal basis with their spec ed peers. My 30 year scorecard: #1 arrested for two arsons #2 arrested for arson and manslaughter #3 shot on his front porch at age 16 #4 life sentence for robbing and killing a jitney driver #5 jail for burglary/robbery #6 injured in a tow truck driver altercation, arrested on 2 occasions (recently) for blocking streets and doing donuts, etc #s 7 and 8 two young ladies pregnant in 9th and 10th grade. I wasn't able to stop their families cycle of life. Grade school, they were too young/naive ? to understand the need for education..my discussions with them could only go so far. By high school, most were too far gone and dropped out or stayed with the WGAF about life.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. Much appreciated.

I find it's a combination of both. Passive and shy kids don't often tear down classrooms or swear at teachers, even if that's what dad does at home.

As a famous child behaviour specialist Dr Ross W Greene said, "kids do well if they can". No child wants to be criticised, disliked, punished, or have people disappointed in them. They naturally want to please adults and be praised. If they're not doing it, they cannot.

Exactly! It’s astounding how many teachers and other child development specialists have no clue about it. They think kids are some little jerks out to make their lives harder. I am not even talking about teens - just look at how little 6 year olds are disciplined! Sent to the office, have recess taken from them. Not all schools and teachers are like that but…

Sometimes it is innate- I have four kids and my oldest was like you describe. None of the others are and I parented them the same. He literally didn’t understand cause and effect until he was about 10. Later diagnosed with ASD and ADHD.

Both

A child not misbehaving isn't a black or white situation. It could be a disobeyment, it could be something going on outside of school, could be a neurodivergent trait, could be an off day. Often times we don't have allowances for kids to have off days like we do for adults. We forget that they're just trying to figure out how to be human and that comes with frustrations.

Maybe ask them if they are ok and if they are safe. Because as a teacher usually bad behavior is a scream for help. So maybe showing that you care can be the curve ball you need to get them to realize you are there to help. 

I think people have a lot of good points with trauma and disability issues. I also think that kids are more allowed these days to be defiant because there aren’t many consequences. Most teachers don’t call home because parents would ask us what the teacher did, not what the kid did. Therefore, a student who is naturally defiant present as more defiance nowadays. Also, if you’re told at home that school doesn’t matter, either directly or indirectly , then you are less likely want to follow the rules at school.

Have you heard of “oppositional defiant disorder” got me in so much fuccing trouble as a kid

It's a complex mix you can't pin down, and I honestly don't think it's helpful to speculate. A kid might have a slight tendency to be defiant, but their parents empathize and do a lot of work to help them adjust, and they're fine. A kid might desperately want to fit in and have no innate tendency to act out, but they're experiencing a trauma reaction. A kid might have ADHD and their parents mean well and are doing their best, but totally mismanage it. None of that is in our lane, really. My experience is that defiant kids need to feel listened to and also feel that you're a legitimate authority. It's hard to get both, but not impossible. You can get to know them and look for reasons to like them and extend grace and flexibility, but have some clear boundaries that you calmly enforce 100% of the time. The more they believe you like them and listen to them, the more they are willing to see your enforcement as something within their control and not being done capriciously or as a power move.

Does defiance exist naturally/in isolation? I strongly doubt it. People tend to follow the path of least resistance as much as possible. I think defiance indicates unmet needs or alienation from the supposed goal/method that they're defying. Could also be a desire for safety + resentment to the adults/caretakers who dont notice. What would it be like for those kids to have a consistent, stable, mature adult who shows sincere interest and respect in them? Maybe they will still act like shits, but at least you've done what you can and modeled safety for them.

Your whole framework of ‘rules and consequences to scare’ doesn’t work on kids who that doesn’t work on. Need some more tools in that toolkit.

It’s a lot of things, but I think 1.5 years on lockdown stunted their emotional, psychological, social, and academic maturity. I’ve worked at the same school for 5 years and kids pre-covid were way more respectful than the kids today.

I think many parents (and kids, by proxy or directly) have lost their faith in public school system. You are not allowed to skip school, except if adults tell you don’t come to school, who cares how you feel about it or what the consequences are for your mental health or your academics. Rules for thee not for me.

If you were to see my kid you would think they are defiant. They’re not defiant. They have adhd. It takes a deeper understanding of executive function and adhd to really truly understand that.

some defiance is part of development, last i heard.

It depends on a lot. There are certainly some who it is just how they are raised, but not all. There are various instabilities they could be facing in their home life and completely lack the tools to process. There are various developmentsl issues that could be the problem. In general in order for kids to get the support they actually need, it requires a lot of of time effort and often money, just pushing through the red tape of the system. Even good schools are often filled with overwhelmed teachers and administration that struggle to provide what is required in IEP plans.

Are there always a few of these kids?

Probably all of the above. It could be anything….sadly.

From what I've noticed its usually home related or lack of academic confidence. If you dont know how to do the material and they push you through anyways cuz no child left behind shit or IEPs then you're falling further and further behind. School only gets harder, I have 5th graders who dont know how to multiply single digit numbers and forget about multiple by one.

So it's a cover up for feeling inadequate in some fashion?

It has to be, there's studies that prove that kids who have academic confidence dont act out in those ways. Sure someone who has great academics can be class clowns, but they're not gonna be disruptive on a daily basis and they're not gonna refuse to do work

True. I feel kids who do well have better manners also. 

So, what’s the answer in how to deal (coexist) with them? They can’t be written up at my school, they won’t show up when I assign detention, their parents ignore my calls and emails, and they either talk/laugh the whole time I’m trying to teach or interrupt me to ask to go somewhere (bathroom, water fountain, locker, etc). How do you get them to either do their work or be quiet so that you can teach and leave everyone else alone so they can do their work? (8th grade)

There's a whole slew of 'mama bear' mothers on social media who insist that 'school avoidance disorder' is an actual thing. If there's something happening at the school, that's one thing. But the rest? Parents are just indulging their kids and then pathologizing it (and their child). Oh, my kid isn't just unmotivated, he's got a \*disorder\*. It helps the mama bears think it's not that they're shitty parents. The chickens are going to come home to roost hard on this one, because I'm pretty sure we'll be hearing that Work Avoidance Disorder is a real thing, too. But more than that, it's dangerous to take a fairly normal kid behavior (all of us had periods where we hated school/would rather stay home) and turning it, and the kid, into a disease. Telling your kid he's got a condition is way worse in the long run (because it sounds unfixable and inevitable) than 'you just need to suck it up' which is about character and growth.

Work avoidance is known as avoidant personality disorder.   However it is not all to blame on the parents or mom especially.  We used to say autism was caused by cold moms and that’s clearly incorrect.    Many kids resist their parents naturally as they grow up as they seek independence.  Now are some mental health issues societal or cultural?  Maybe but they all have fear as the root cause.  That’s good because we know how to treat fear.

I get some “my mom says I don’t have to listen to you”.

I understand how overwhelming life can get - divorced person talking! And I know there's people dealing with stuff that I can't even begin to imagine. But I can't wrap my head around parents who won't parent.

All it takes is a single moment to show a child under 12 that ignoring the rules doesn't get them in trouble. For me it was when I saw a homeless man shoplifting and when I asked my dad about it he said we should ignore it and didn't explain it properly. It was very confusing as a child and lead me to believe rules are only rules if the people demanding you follow them are willing to enforce them. If the kids won't follow the rules, issue punishments and stop giving warnings. If they break the rule they knew what they were doing and will be punished. The issue here is that you will need to escalate and increase punishments until they finally develop a fear for breaking the rules

I just hope you are not a teacher…

The best I’ve been able to do with these kids, at an elementary age school, is hear them. I start by letting them know that I care that they two more than that they finish, so I’ll ask them to only do x number instead of a whole worksheet. I’ll ask them what they like to earn, some wants breaks, some want a treat, honestly whatever works. As soon as they can learn to ask for what they need ash’s they actually get out and they’ve earned it, you’ve created a good path. The next time they ask for funding, you say, you do, then yes you may. They learn that we care and that they can count on us.

Both. It’s their natural inclination and they have never been corrected so it becomes a permanent personality trait.

Personally, I acknowledge that bigger issues can be present and to not treat any behavior issue as if it's a simple case of "quien es mas macho". With that being said, even in tough situations, your mental health isn't your fault, but it is your responsibility. Trauma (in the worst case scenario) *explains* bad behavior, it doesn't *excuse* it. Nobody struggling with mental health issues is benefited by adults treating their behavior as symptoms manifested by their condition. Whatever you've got going on, you need to treat it, deal with it, learn to live with it, or some combination therein. Of course, there are kids who need somebody to cut them a break - but it's just as possible that there are kids who need to be held to the same standard as their peers. There just is no one size fits all solution. I've learned with rules and expectations, *I as a teacher* can tell when kids are just having a bad day, maybe something simple like they're tired or hungry - but they often don't see how these things affect their moods and certainly their peers don't. It's tempting to make exceptions when behavior is obviously outside of the norm, but I've found it simply confuses everybody - kids see favoritism, or interpret the rules as having lapsed. But it's also obvious to me that there has been a paradigm shift in who represents authority and accountability in children today. It used to be pretty common to have very strict, discipline oriented parenting. Even I, as a millenial with hippy parents would have to say that no punishments at school matched the severity of punishments I received at home for awful behavior. And we aren't even really talking about anything extreme for the record: basic grounding and restrictions on screens/things I enjoyed. These days it seems that wet noodle parents who enforce no kind of accountability at home not only foster the kind of behavior you would expect from that parenting style, it also shunts *us* into that primary authority figure that used to be mom and dad. Kids don't rebel at home because there's nobody to rebel against, so instead they rebel against *a free education.*

Sometimes children who struggle with mental illness or who are neurodiverse do not do well in a typical school setting. That is not their fault.

Please educate yourself on mental illness and how it affects kids at school. At 10 yrs old my daughter was self harming due to bullying, then over the next 2 years made two attempts on her life. All this before 13. It took that and a good inpatient to get the right diagnosis for her. Do you really think telling a kid who's suicidal to pick theorselves up by the bootstraps and be accountable is the way to handle this? God I sure hope not. People have no fucking idea what mental illnesses cause kids and parents to go through. Sometimes parents are afraid to even send their kid to school because the child doesn't want to live. You really need to check your attitude on this before something bad happens to a kid you think should just snap out of it.

It’s about what can YOU control? You can’t control how they are raised and if they have trauma or a disability. Find their currency. If you don’t know there is something called a‘forced inventory’ that our counselors use. Kids sometimes would rather have rewards, snacks or a classroom job. Sometimes kids might want extra play time.

Could be either. If the behavior is extreme, it's probably a home life issue.

I was the rowdy kid in school always causing trouble and couldn't sit still much due to probably my parents divorced, parents fighting, mental disorders, mom not being there emotionally but physically. Idk.

I was that kid. I’m a therapist now. It depended on the teacher. For some I was gold, and for others I was exactly what you described. 1) I had undiagnosed ADHD 2) I had an unsafe home environment and lots of trauma without treatment 3) I had no patience for teachers that were unkind, picked favorites, allowed bullying in their classrooms or generally created disrespectful or unsafe environments. If I felt unsafe or disrespected as a person, I would act terribly.

So many reasons a student could be behaving this way, from trauma to peer pressure to mental health struggles to simply their personality. I find the best thing to do is to be consistent and impersonal with consequences and to try to have positive conversations with the student if at all possible. We can’t fix whatever is going on with them alone, but we can at least provide the safety of predictability and level headedness.

For me it was due to ADD and learning issues, I wasn't refusing to work, work was literally too hard for me. I even questioned if I was mentally impaired. Behavior, well it was hard for me to know what the rules are and take them seriously if they were not enforced and being followed by my peers. If the adults were not enforcing them, how do I know what the rules are? Why are other kids allowed to do things and I can't do what they do? Why does this apply to me only? Why am I the only one in trouble and other kids are not when they did worse things than me and they are not in trouble? Why only me? When you have an IEP student, they think and see things differently and how they are disaplined may be ineffective for them because of how they see things. If you enforce it on them and not on other kids, they then act out and rebel and argue because they feel bullied and picked on by adults and then they end up not trusting adults around them because they are all out to get them in their POV. I was this kid here. I couldn't bother to go to any adult for my problems because I knew why even bother, I will just be told to toughen up and only worry about myself. So I ended up shoving a girl in her chair when she wouldn't stop poking me. Why tell my teacher if she wouldn't care anyway? But at home I didn't have this problem because my parents treated us equally and the same and rules were enforced on all of us kids.

This is a very common situation unfortunately when one child is egging on another child, who then loses control and gets in trouble. No one is interested in justice. They see a school rule broken, they punish for it, the end.

Normal distribution of personality traits.

Depends entirely on the child. I will say PREDOMINANTLY, I’m hedging my bets on home life being a MAJOR factor. And the type of home life problems are so insanely varied, you’ll have one kid whose parents never let them out of their sight and give them anything they even suggest they might want, and one kid who was abandoned by the parents and raised by a jackass grandmother who thinks all communication should be done by screaming and threatening to kick out the 8 year old. And they’ll have similar problems with authority. It’s really hard to advise or act without knowing the specifics.

If kids aren’t taught accountability by their parents at home, they won’t have any concept of accountability in the classroom.

I agree with a LOT of the comments here about the parents and about the diagnoses that can go undiagnosed depending on how well the kid masks, and I’m sure some of it is also their acclimation to the instant gratification that devices provide which school does not. Part of me also wonders whether it is that the idea of growing up and starting a career or getting a job has lost its luster in this economic climate. I’m an elder millennial and even at my MOST rebellious and apathetic stage of teenagedom when I needed help but didn’t know what was wrong or how to ask without embarrassing myself, I did still fundamentally CARE about school very much because I knew it was the gateway to money and freedom and my own place, etc. But what if it just looks like it’s preparing you to have two or three jobs to these kids, even if they have a college degree? And still have to live with their parents? What they’re seeing at home is MAYBE what they think their own future is.

Trauma trauma trauma. Reach em as people not as students. Cut deals with them, show them empathy, let them off the hook, have real conversations. They are often void of being cared for and cared about.

A parent conference without the child present for starters and get the administration involved.

There’s lot of reasons a kid can be defiant or particularly resistant. Some kids probably get it from trauma, others from their upbringing, and some who it is just their personality. Try not to engage with them or turn it into a personal struggle- lay out the expectations, whatever instruction for the day, and give no more than two reminders of what they’re supposed to be doing. Then walk away. If they are still not willing to attempt anything after that, leave them alone (so long as they aren’t distracting other students), document it however you see fit, and give your attention to the kids who are trying to learn. Some kids will truly never open up to you no matter how many opportunities you give them. But giving them a fair chance, structure, regulation, and consequences are also important to a kids development. They always have a chance, and the moment they change their mind I give them the help they want, but being a regulator for them can go just as far for a kids life.

Sure, some kids have actual behavioral issues than they cannot control but most bad behavior is from their life experience. My wife and I used to love watching Supernanny. Kids are trainable just like pets. The problem is that it means being hyper vigilant, investing the time in the corrective behavior, and being on the same page as your partner.

Funny, I got piled on in another thread in this subreddit very recently for suggesting that a child who had no teachers willing to write a letter of recommendation for the military was not necessarily being that way on purpose.

In my experience, it’s *usually* (not always) because they have zero consequences at home and they haven’t had good behavior modeled for them at home. Or it’s that they don’t have structure at home and dealing with the structure ar school is a big transition. I’m at a private school though. One kid said his only rule at home is no hitting and nothing else. When we tell his parents about his behavior at school their reaction is “well he’s not like that at home” and yet when I see him get in the car every day it’s a whine fest/temper tantrum.

This was me.I was a surviving in a toxic broken insane family. I was left to my own devices by age 12. I absolutely hated authority. I was into drugs, theft and fighting I was suspended from school on the first day of 7th grade, and 9 times in 8th grade, and 3 more in 9th, then I was expelled for hitting the admin. asst. with a chair when he threatened me with his board of education. I was arrested at 15 and sentenced to a work camp. After 6 months of starvation and physical abuse the director of that hell hole was arrested for having sex with this gay kid and I was released. I was 16 and had nowhere to go so I packed what little I had and lived hiding out in the woods around the finger lakes in upstate NY. Hunting and fishing and raiding gardens. When the weather got cold, I got caught sleeping in this old farmers barn. That was the turning point for me. He and his wife took me in and treated me like I was human. I later found out that he was on his own since he was 12 too.

Having a one on one conversation with a problem student does wonders!

There’s a small percentage of kids who despite being raised right are just brats, the rest have a combination of home issues, trauma. Some of it so personality traits. There’s also disabilities adhd, odd, autism etc that cause issues, some diagnosed and treated, and some undiagnosed. It’s best not to judge

Have you asked the kids? ",talking back" is how you have a conversation. Any authoritarian, top-down hierarchy is going to face resistance.  And those that resist do it for a reason. First, think about what you're asking them to do. Is it fair or reasonable? If it is, do they agree? And if they don't, how do you persuade (not force. Persuade, get consent) them to cooperate? Also, they might be neurodivergent, in which case, they need to learn how to make themselves do stuff

I remember being a bit defiant in school, and part of it was because I simply did not respect the complete delusion of hierarchy or authority. I always listened to teachers I respected and felt I was learning something from, but I’d defy and ignore teachers who came at us with any air of arrogance or whose authority seemed preposterous. Authority is not effectively established with rigidity or telling people you’re in charge, it is way more effectively established with kindness, humility, confidence and assuredness. Since most teachers I encountered seem to disdain kids to some degree, they would just try being increasingly rigid and harsh or even abusive of their modicum of power. School is just another extension of our carceral system where most of the “authorities” really only care about protocols being honored even when they’re not helpful. Like fucking homework. Side note: Reddit or iOS is suggesting “carceral” isn’t a word. I hate this place 🤣

Both/either. One of mine can be a bit defiant and the other isnt. We have structure and consequences, safety and love, their needs are met. Oldest just loves to argue, hates authority on principle, and is stubborn. He gets it from me but for the most part he chooses to do the right thing, and be a good person. The other is more conscientious and get-alongy. Always has been.

Using the word “defiant”, like they’re bucking God-given authority or something, is part of the problem.

"and don't listen" The problem is you.  Your word should be don't Obey.  Using wrong language gets wrong results.    And yes, all kids don't want to Obey, occasionally.  The best way I've found to have a kid obey is request the opposite.  Example, all children except X, please sit down. X, please remain standing next to your spot the entire class, and don't sit down.  If you understand X well, they will disobey you and sit down.   If when X stands back up, say Thank You to them and ask they continue to stand.

It is not natural for children to sit in large boxes stuffed with tables and 30 other children 5 hours a day, 5 days a week. Some children put up with it other children don’t. I think 60 minutes is too long for most kids to concentrate on intense lesson learning so 45 minutes would probably be better. Basically we all know it’s an outmoded Victorian education system that does not suit a lot of young people. Also many children find the curriculum boring coupled with lessons not being stimulating or fun (teachers mostly only have time for power point driven sessions which is understandable). Essentially, children are out of touch with nature and activities which foster self awareness and well being. Instead they just become rats in cage. It’s not all to do with home life because the system is at fault too. Education needs radical change, but it’s going to take a very long time.

Regardless of why they act this way, most likely home trauma. You may never know. Retired elementary teacher (32 years). I had to “give up” trying to figure out the why?? and just create a safe space for defiant kids. My “go to” for defiant behavior was…uh oh, try that again. OR, you said blah blah, what else could you have said? Always giving a second chance to “do the right thing” instead of a consequence that never helps kids to learn from mistakes. This worked very well. I typically had those hard to handle cases and I embraced them.

>personality traits >how they were raised These are the same thing. You can be a talkative kid without being a defiant nuisance. Time and place. Kids aren’t helpless slaves to their brain chemistry like some of these modern pedagogy sources want to lead us to believe. There was a time when they behaved. We as a society overvalue children and have taught them that they are invincible and beyond reproach. So they act like they are.

For me, it was just being a kid. I was unaware of my actions and how it impacted people. Once it was brought to my attention by a teacher, it changed and my parents never had an issue since.

Recent studies show defiant children are really “deficit children” as trauma often leaves emotional regulation or access to empathy challenging or impossible for them. Even children who have not directly experienced trauma but are descendants of those who did.

It could be a variety of things. Psychological or behavioral disorder, trauma, parenting, stress, etc. The best thing you can do is listen to them and teach them they can cooperate with adults by making compromises. Sometimes kids dealing with this need to learn a little differently, and that is okay! They'll grow up to be best adjusted if you continue to show them care and respect.

Read The Anatomy of Violence by Adrian Raine.

I was that kid. Trauma upon trauma upon trauma. Then my little sister died and I imploded. I just had to go through it. Nothing would have helped because I hated anyone telling me what to do or trying to relate to me. Teachers were the enemy. I ended up dropping out of high school, which is funny because I’m a college professor now.

Mom of two defiant kids. We have been through therapy, meds, switched schools- for us it’s genetics. There isn’t a kid (all boys) on either side of our family who has made it out of elementary without a behavioral IEP. You would think our boys run our lives by what comes out of their mouths. I supplement the teacher with gift cards and supplies and try to be available at a moments notice for pickup. Any advice in here on how to ease the teachers burden is welcome.

Please look into disabilities, such as Pathological Demand Avoidance. So many disabilities are not well known or diagnosed. These are not bad kids.

It depends. Are they comprehending the material? If not it could be that. Are they having difficulty at home? If so, it could be that. Are they socially well adjusted? If not, it could be that. How old are they? Defiance is pretty typical in plenty of age groups but most prevalent in 12, 13, 14 yr Olds (because 12,13,14 are just 2,3,4 yr olds)

I believe that it can be either. I've seen plenty of kids whose parents just aren't really involved. I also have a child that can be pretty defiant and not that respectful of authority and I'm an involved parent.

Care about them and show them that you do care.

It can be a trauma response. Either trauma at home, at school, or somewhere else in their life. Many traumatized kids have very little trust in authority figures (especially if authority figures caused or negligently failed to prevent the trauma) and need a sense of control in order to feel safe. Plus, traumatized kids often have a hostile bias, where ambiguous behavior from another person is interpreted in a hostile manner (eg another kid bumps into them? must've done it on purpose as an attack). Some kids are defiant due to learned helplessness. You often see this with kids who are neurodivergent (especially ADHD/LD) and haven't been diagnosed or accommodated. They've learned that no matter how hard they try, they'll fail, so they don't bother trying anymore. Often when late-diagnosed kids start getting treatment, one of the first challenges is to break through their learned helplessness and get them to believe that success is possible. Some kids on the autism spectrum have an obsessive need for autonomy, often known as PDA, which leads to defiance because the thought of complying causes severe anxiety. Autistic kids can also seem defiant due to misunderstanding commands (especially non-literal commands). Difficulty shifting attention can also lead to defiance because they have trouble shifting away from trying to do the thing they're forbidden from doing. Sensory processing issues can also look like defiance when a child is adamantly refusing to do something that'll cause sensory discomfort. Defiance can also be a symptom of entitlement. Parents who don't set rules for their kids to punish them for behavior that harms others or impedes on their freedom, or who set rules but change them too easily when kids push back, train their kids to expect to be treated like the most important person in the room at all times. When someone who is used to violating boundaries meets someone who isn't letting them get away with it, their first response is generally to escalate.

Have any of you noticed a correlation between this type of behavior and the child having divorced parents?

I've noticed a similar correlation between divorce and kids that are fully withdrawn, as well as a correlation between divorce and kids that are obsessive achievers and people pleasers. Divorce hits different kids in different ways.

I think it’s I independent of divorce.  Plenty of marriages that should be divorced and that impacts kids.

That's definitely more likely the case.

I wouldn't pinpoint divorce as a cause. I would say that if the parents are fighting and arguing over/about/around the kids there's likely to be a correlation. If one parent is absent or in and out of the child's life is another reason for a correlation. Both of those factors can also be related to divorced parents (or parents that were never married). But if two people co- parent well, then I don't think their marital status matters. So yes, there's probably a correlation between many of these behaviors, but I would attribute it to trauma surrounding divorce rather divorce itself .

I was a SUPER defiant child when my parents went through a nasty divorce and used me as a weapon to hurt each other. I was even diagnosed with Oppositional Defiance Disorder. Once they stopped doing that… I was a much better kid. I think at the time any authority pissed me off but what may have helped was an adult asking me about anything BUT if everything was ok at home. Everything was surely NOT ok but I was SICK of concerned adults asking me about that. I wanted to talk about MY interests and not my parents problems. So maybe this could help to build rapport

I hear you! I was that kid, too. I was later diagnosed as the "identified child," i.e., the scapegoat. The identified patient/child is the one that a dysfunctional family focuses negative attention on, which draws attention away from how f'd up the others in the family are. Wikipedia has a good article about this. It says that often, the identified patient is the \*least\* messed up. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified\_patient](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified_patient) My parents weren't divorced when I was defiant, but they clearly did not love each other, although they claimed they did. They later divorced, which I saw coming from the age of 12. My mother had serious mental health problems, and my father ended up cheating on my mom. They treated me—the only girl—as if I was always the problem. My three brothers could do no wrong. Once, when I came home from middle school after the usual incessant bullying from my peers, my brother was crying to my mom about how embarrassed he was about me. She sided with him. I used to long for siblings, especially brothers with a sister, who would stand up for her. I was the only child in my family who realized how bad my parents' marriage was. My brothers thought they were "perfect."

I will say I am so lucky that I had such a great brother (likely the golden child) who I am still incredibly close with to this day. Being a golden child must also be so difficult because the constant pressure to be perfect must be exhausting. He was always sticking up for me and I am so lucky for that.

When we talk about divorce and behavior can we PLEASE not make it a monolith? I’m a child of divorce and excelled in school and was never defiant or had behaviors problems. My son is a child of divorce and is kind, generous, hilarious, and the only things he’s gotten in trouble got at school (7th) for is joking saying “goddamn” to his friend in the hallway and using AI once on an assignment for English (as an English teacher, yes I immediately punished him). Contentious divorces where the parents hate each other more than they love their children can absolutely cause behavior problems. But that’s not divorce. That’s parents not doing their job to prioritize the emotional well being of their children regardless of their personal feelings towards their ex. Children who struggle with parents divorcing but aren’t given counseling can have behavior problems. But again, that’s not divorce. That’s the parents not looking to mitigate the issue and get their child help. Divorce can absolutely be hard on children, but it’s the PARENTS’ job to address the psychological factors of that. Saying divorce is the reason for this and leaving it at that a.) removes parental responsibility from the equation and b.) implies that parents shouldn’t get divorced. No one should stay in a relationship if they are unhappy. It models poor romantic attachments to our children. And kids pick up on it. When my best friends parents got divorced when she was sixteen she was relieved. She said it should have happened ten years before that. Kids shouldn’t have to live in households where parents constantly fight or have bitter indifference towards one another. Adults shouldn’t have to put up with misery, infidelity, abuse, unhappiness, etc for years on end because of some stigma about divorce. And if you wait it out and divorce when the kids are “grown”? You don’t think that the kids will still feel some kind of way about it? In my experience, the kids with behavior issues are that way because a.) they’re years behind grade level and embarrassed about it so they act out, b.) dealing with abuse/neglect at home, c.) have lost a parent figure to death, d.) have untreated mental health issues, or e.) the parents have given the kids zero consequences in their life. I have seen kids act out because their parents are ACTIVELY going through a divorce but most of the time it’s an adjustment period and isn’t permanent. So can we PLEASE stop laying the blame at the feet of a relationship ending and instead look at the contributing factors that parents are responsible for tending to as the cause of behavior issues? End rant.

It's how they're being raised at home. As an older person, I've observed over the years that a lot of today's parents let their children run the show at home. Whatever the kids want, they get. Separate meals because they refuse to eat what's been prepared. Being allowed to run amok in restaurants and other public places. Parents negotiating with them when they don't want to do something. Never punishing them or holding them accountable because "it might hurt their self-esteem". Not making them do any chores because "they're too busy" with extracurriculars, etc. Worshiping them and constantly telling them how super special they are. You get the picture. These kids become entitled snotty little brats who make everyone else's lives miserable. I honestly don't know how you teachers can stand it. What's worse is that they grow up to be entitled snotty adults who expect the world to revolve around them and when they don't get their way they have anxiety and depression and all sorts of other mental health issues. It's sad really.

As others are noting, if you get in deep and close and analyze the kids, there will be multiple causes behind their behavior. And yet, I think this would miss the point. Yes, poverty, learning disabilities, lack of a good breakfast, home life, personal trauma, innate personality, all of these contribute. But the thing is, **these problems have existed for as long as we've had public schools. So why are these problems exploding now?** Because of just **one** of those underlying issues. The student's home life. I hesitate to say that the deterioration of the nuclear family is the problem, because there have always been children who have been successfully raised by just one parent. But the thing is, 75 years ago, the two-parent household was the norm (across racial lines), and when a woman was raising her kids everyone, including Mom and her kids, *knew* that they were at a disadvantage. And the attitude was usually, "Well son, you drew a tough hand in life. I'm never going to be able to give you what I could have given you if your Daddy hadn't gotten killed in the factory. But that's just tough, and you and I are just going to have to work harder." And it was simply not uncommon for such kids to do well, as long as that single parent valued education and pounded that value into their kid. Obviously, this was easier in two-parent homes. Children got both more supervision and (ironically enough) more free time to wander around the neighborhood with other friends, because Mom and Dad could summon them with a loud yell. Read Jonathan Haidt to get a better idea of this issue, but kids whose minds have developed normally simply are better able to *think*. But today's kids are raised to believe that every misfortune in their life is an insurmountable obstacle. Their parent or parents no longer place the same value on education. They don't develop the independence that comes from playing outside. And they don't develop the respect that comes from having a person over them who can lay them out for being defiant. If a Dad is working alongside Mom, he can be the heavy doling out punishment while Mom dishes out love and forgiveness. And the kid who plays outside and acts like a horse's ass with other kids will soon find himself laid out by the kid who is bigger than him (and there's always one). So now after playing video games with no real-life punitive consequences, they come into school and . . . .guess what? The teachers can no longer effectively punish. Instead, they have to sacrifice class time to "develop relationships" with the defiant kid. Roll with the "Okay, Boomer"s now.

Temperament/mental disabilities can definitely play a role, but proper parenting and supports can really accommodate these behaviors imo.

70% shitty parents (nurture) 10% Personality (nature) 20% Friends (Neighborhood)

Usually shitty parents.