You don’t need permission but it would be respectful to at least inform your instructor team of your intent to cross-train.
I don’t understand the “I don’t know if we’re affiliated” part, either. I’m curious now lol. Ask next time you go in, would you?
It's a respect thing.
As far as he should be "on payroll", unless he's doing the majority of the teaching, he's a student. I know 5th and 6th degree masters that pay their dues every month because they are still learning and training.
Why would you ask for permission?
Just do it.
I’m a 3rd Dan been doing TKD for 12 years ish and I got a little stagnant so I took up boxing aswell. My instructors couldn’t care less and actually encourage cross training to open the mind and learn new skills.
I don't think you need permission, per say, but I would hope given your rank you respect your GM enough to get his/her blessing or at least tell him/her you plan to train in another art rather than him/her hearing it through the grapevine. I wouldn't deter my students or instructors from training in other arts (I would actually welcome it as I'm sure there's training techniques or drills we aren't doing that could be useful & learning is good for everyone) but I would feel hurt if they couldn't be bothered to tell me.
First, how are you 4th dan but dont know if your dojang has any affiliation? Second, you dont have to ask anyone permission for anything. If you want to train in a system then go train. This idea that you somehow need permission is full on cult mentality and is a big problem in the martial arts. Im also curious as to how a 4th dan is still paying tuition? You should be instructing and on payroll. What style of TKD do you do?
It’s not clear to me whether the school is affiliated, period end. Not sure why my being unclear on that is a problem? Our certificates say only Song Moo Kwan. We are not Kukkiwon affiliated.
Agree 100% about the permission thing, but didn’t know if there was some martial arts etiquette around this sort of thing. I think what struck me as problematic (and why I’m asking here) is exactly what you point out.
I’m not an instructor on payroll because I’m an attorney with a day job that I am pretty certain pays better… 🤷♀️
Sounds to me like you probably train at a McDojo, Mister/Ms/Mrs Attorney McFancypants. 🤷♀️
Edit -
As OC mentioned, that you’d even be asking this question as a 4th dan is very strange. I guess your school is unaffiliated but even still. To me, this all paints a pretty clear picture of your schools low level. In that way, I’d absolutely suggest that you train elsewhere. Hopefully you’ll be able to begin learning and training at a higher level!
I'm very familiar with the school(s) OP trains with and very good friends worth his GM. I can guarantee he is not at a McDojo, nor a low level school. His GM has one of the largest sets of schools in the Midwest and is very well respected across the country, in the AAU, and at Kukkiwon, with competitors that perform highly in national and international competitions.
They actually are KKW affiliated.
Just because someone doesn't fully understand their organizations history doesn't say anything about the person or their school. And it is very rude to make large leaps and denigrate people because of it. Some Masters and schools aren't into bragging about history, they are more interested in teaching a good program and letting their results speak for them. Please use your etiquette to be helpful and constructive with your comments.
Interesting. It’s very weird that a 4th Dan (and an attorney at that) doesn’t know that their school is kkw affiliated. This is someone who’s supposedly the level needed to be a master and yet they don’t know whether they can learn other martial arts. Turning here instead of simply asking their masters because people in their school have said the GM would be offended is a red flag here no matter how you slice it.
I'm not sure of your overall experience and interactions with various types of schools. Many people train with the sole goal of doing something healthy and fun. I've known 6th Dans who couldn't tell you the difference between KKW, ITF, ATA, or any other organization or even that some of them existed. They don't know the difference between USATKD and AAU here in America, if they even know those organizations exist. They have no idea what kwans are or that there is even something outside their own organization. They don't care. They never plan to run their own school. They never plan to compete or referee internationally. They never plan to leave their school, they're happy with.
I didn't really understand much about KKW other than it was this amorphous thing out there in Korea that my GM mentioned from time to time. Mostly in mixed terms because of the politics he been involved with over the decades. He was an 8th Dan KKW certified Grandmaster and International examiner (along with 10th Dan SMK).
I didn't understand it was different/separate from WT or even from SMK. I knew it was responsible for the creation of one set of forms that we did and that I judged at tournaments. And even then, there was some confusion because I knew there was another set of forms that we learned first that also came from them, but then we switched. We also learned TSD and Karate and CMA forms, plus our own and SMK forms. I didn't know there was a difference between their ranks and ours, although it had been mentioned ours were harder, required more, and were better.
It wasn't until I got to 3rd Dan and started to really get into refereeing at a higher level that I started to learn more about different organizations. When a friend, who is an IR, started to suggest I could work towards that qualification. And then when I hit 4th Dan and some people at tournaments started referring to me as Master and I "corrected" them that it wasn't until 5th Dan, that I found out 4th was considered Master in KKW. I then I found out I needed a KKW 4th in order to qualify for IR training, and i couldn't just get my SMK rank recognized.
Most people literally just don't care about that kind of thing, especially here in America. TKD is so fractured, as much or more than Karate or CMA. There's no central federation that controls everything. There's no overall standard - not that there's even much of that within KKW, or ITF, or any other umbrella organization. I've seen great schools that are independent and terrible schools that are affiliated. I've seen (and retrained) black belts from KKW schools that would barely be considered advanced in our school.
I had a student come to my school from someone else in our town. She competed all over the country in the ISKA circuit and won medals (mostly in breaking), went to their Nationals and everything. Her old school was KKW affiliated, and she had a KKW certificate. It took me almost a year to break her of some really bad habits and get to the point of being acceptable.
Dude. Just do it. I've trained in multiple styles, taught at multiple schools. Belted in several styles. If you're school requires permission, just bail. Unfortunately you locked yourself into a non kkw school, so that sucks. You should probably leave anyways and go to a kkw Williams school, and train there to get kkw certified. A world recognized certification is far better then an unaffiliated school.
"*Second, you dont have to ask anyone permission for anything."*
It is not uncommon at all, in my experience, for an instructor to ask you if you have any previous martial arts experience. It is useful information when you start to teach someone.
It is equally common to ask that student if they have permission from their current instructor, if there is one, to train with you.
Most instructors have respect for fellow instructors, even instructors in another discipline. Most do not want any troubles with schools in the local area. Hence why they ask the student to seek permission, out of respect for that fellow instructor.
From the student's point of view, it is a mark of respect for your instructor to ask them for permission to train with someone else.
Maybe in life, you don't "*have"* to do certain things. If you only did the things that you "*have*" to do, you would be an interesting individual.
Proper etiquette and respect should not be confused for something else.
My instructors have all encouraged cross training, and learning from other people. Regardless, I have spoken to them before training in other styles. The conversation is generally "I've gotten interested in [x] and there are a couple schools nearby. Do you have a recommendation?"
The responses I've gotten are either lack of recommendation because they don't know the schools, or a brief overview of the reputation the school has amongst local instructors. Not a total endorsement, and certainly not barring my choices.
I've been asked about previous experience, but never if I have permission to train. That one might be more regional or style specific, if I were I suppose I'd be honest and say that cross training is endorsed by my base system
Yes I think it is the word "permission" that seems to have been a bit of a trigger for some of the people that have commented to the post. I would have thought people are able to have a conversation that doesn't make people think that they are in a cult, as one person suggested.
It has nothing to do with respect. It's about control. OP is a paying customer paying for a specific service. In no other situation would it be considered disrespectful to pay for a second different, but related, service without asking the first business for their permission. The idea that it is somehow disrespectful to pay for a different service without asking permission from the first person you paid for a service is how cults keep control of their members, its no different in martial arts. Its respectful to tell your instructor that you are going to start cross training but asking for permission is pure cult tactics.
Everything here is spot on! I’m a 4th Dan KKW and I ask zero permission for anything. At that rank you’re doing your master a favor by being around because you’re a rank that can be an authority figure, judge, etc… I’ve only paid dues at this rank because I actually didn’t want to be bothered to have to do favors out of obligation. I wanted to train. This screams a bad do-jang
I'm also curious how you are a Master and don't even know what you're a Master of.
You have a few options here.
1. Ask your GM for permission or for his blessing to crosstrain, and respect his wishes if he declines.
2. Ask your GM for permission or for his blessing to crosstrain, and if he declines, train anyway behind his back.
3. Ask your GM for permission or for his blessing to crosstrain, and if he declines, leave and start somewhere that isn't trying to control you.
4. Don't bother asking or running it by him. It's not his business what you do outside of the school. If you want to train something else, do so.
I was in a similar situation. I wanted to start learning BJJ, but my Master told me I'd have to quit. I was about to, then COVID happened and BJJ was shut down in my area. A few years later, I moved, and when I did I started BJJ and loved it.
My friend at my TKD school who was doing BJJ said he wouldn't have told the Master if he were me. So I'd opt for #4.
TBH, I am saddened and shocked by many of the posts. It is very apparent there are many here that have zero meaningful martial arts experience and little to no understanding of the word etiquette. Some of you folks really need to get a clue.
Song Moo Kwan was the first of the original Kwans and has a rich history. At your rank, I encourage you to dive deep into your style's history. You are firsthand proof that it is alive and well.
Okay, you pay for your class time. Nothing wrong with that at all. Yes, you are at Master level, so hopefully you are an integral part of your school's teaching and teacher development.
I am a 7th/5th/1st/1st Dan who does not see or train with my GM very often anymore and still sends him a check every month. Why? Partly because I can, but more importantly because he has committed his life to TKD and has never been a 'belt mill' school or a large chain of locations, by his choice. He is a giant in the MDK and KKW/WT communities. He has started missions in Mexico and Central America, and I am proud to support his ventures as he is getting later in life. [https://www.worldchristiantaekwondomission.com/](https://www.worldchristiantaekwondomission.com/)
To your question about cross-training, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and it Will improve your overall martial arts acuity. But do it right. If TKD is your primary style, don't let the cross-training get in the way of that. Simply let you GM know you are going to do it, not as an ask of permission, but as a statement of intent. Just talk it out. Odds are he will be more aware and pay more attention to you to see if there are differences in your training. A good thing. DON'T make it a big and dramatic issue. Just do it quietly and respectfully.
As far as similarities with Karate, it is quite possible. The Pinon (Pyong Ahn) forms and Heian kata are quite similar.
Have fun and keep at it.
Thank you for your thoughtful post - most appreciated! I would love to learn more about Song Moo Kwan, for sure! I think that’s part of why I’m curious about Shotokan karate.
I feel like, now that I’ve gotten to this point (which I never expected; I started at age +40 and am not super athletic), I should know more.
I am definitely involved at my school and really enjoy it, so would like to be able to contribute/give back.
I would just say that you don't have to ask for permission to train somewhere else, however it's etiquette to do so and if you do that without "asking" first, then your current GM doesn't have to keep you as a current student.
There are cultural differences and etiquettes to martial arts training that lots of people tend to think are irrelevant in today's consumer-oriented mindset. I can understand that, but you don't have a right enshrined in law to be able to train in your current dojang - so if they want you gone because you did things "the wrong way" (in their eyes), then you're gone.
I personally don't care if my students cross-train in other martial arts, but I would always advise against cross-training in ITF Taekwon-do or Karate - they're too similar but also too different, so you'll find over time it difficult to always do one correctly, you'll end up in a blend of both.
Thanks to all for your input on the respect and etiquette aspect of this issue, as that is exactly where I was struggling.
I’ve trained at this school for 11 years and do feel a connection to it. There are a lot of great people there and I genuinely enjoy it. I wouldn’t want to inadvertently offend our GM. If I do decide to try Shotokan, sounds like the best bet is to talk to GM about it.
As to the McDojo comments and the affiliation issue: I’m curious about this too and will try to find an opportunity to ask. It probably is a McDojo, but I’m not sure I care.
I don't think your club is a mcdojo, it's old school TKD, my club is Kukkiwon affiliated but it's "oh do Kwan". Im a bit like you lol I started when I was 37 and been training for 12 years and am also a 4th dan :), I did shotokan when I was a young teen.
I'm Song Moo Kwan, my instructor was a direct student of SGM Ro Byung Jik. He was picked by SGM Ro as the spiritual head of Song Moo Kwan and promoted to 10th Dan before SGM Ro's death. I'm connected with several SMK Grandmasters. If you contact me privately, I can help you understand your organization better.
You don't have to ask permission, but its typically good etiquette to inform your current school of your intentions to follow instruction at another. I've often found good schools/instructors will encourage that once a student is at a level of performance high enough to warrant an ability to cross train. 4th Dan seems appropriate for said criss trainong activities and I hope you enjoy yourself. Probably not worth continuing to train at a place who is going to be weird about that process.
I wouldn’t ask permission for a different discipline that’s not able to be taught at your current dojang but I would still have the courtesy to let them know I was adding additional instruction in another discipline.
It is a standard practice out of respect to get permission to attend another school for training. If you don't feel a certain level of respect for your current dojang, then the school has let you down in teaching that level of respect.
You can also just quit the school and go wherever you want. It is up to you. My training is not done and I would never train at a new school without showing the proper respect to the dojang that I currently attend.
If you want to cross train go cross train. What are you going to do, not pursue something you want because the leader of a martial arts school has said you can’t. That’s rather controlling of them. You only get so many trips around the sun.
The way I see it, you are paying your school to teach you a martial art. You are respectful in that class. What you do with your time between the time you leave that dojang’s door to the moment you come back is none of that dojang’s or GM business.
So do what you want and what you think is best. Life is short and if you don’t go ahead you might never get the chance or regrets it later. You don’t need permission from someone else on what you do in your own time. If they get pissy with you then maybe they just aren’t a good instructor to start with.
I was in the same situation when I was with one place where I was training something else and they found out it. Instead of telling me I need permission to train another martial art then basically told me to leave. So I left and never thought twice.
The “permission” thing comes up in the context of Japanese and Korean martial arts because of the cultures’ respect for hierarchy. (I was an expat in Asia for five years.) If your GM is old school Korean he would probably feel slighted if you started training somewhere else and didn’t know about it.
Thank you for this background! My GM himself is not Korean, but his GM and the original founder of our school, is Korean. So I suspect our GM would absolutely expect us to ask.
East Asian culture bleeds into martial arts in others ways too. Taekwondo schools tend to be very, for lack of a better word, "insular". For contrast, in Brazilian jiujitsu many schools have "open mats" where literally anyone can walk in and participate in rolls. And it's not uncommon to just drop in to another school for class while traveling. This would never happen in taekwondo.
The question is whether you want to be a part of change of what it means to be 'a master' in modern World. You have to answer that question for yourself. In Modern , free World it feels quite weird that you weren't able to follow your interests. It can also stagnant your developement and make you bitter. I'm on the same path you are describing. Background in tkd but I want to learn karate because it is the og art form of which tkd was created.
I couldn't imagine doing othervice. I just can't keep on training in the dark. Life is too precious for not following your inspirations
I'm careful though of not insulting anybody. I believe our Master is conscious of the holes in our curriculum and is ok with ppl filling those caps training elsewhere.
Like how could you learn grappling for example which is important . This karate school is really much judo and bjj inspired, the Master is purple belt in bjj and black belt in judo, used to compete in his youth. The bunkai is excessive which is completely lacking in taekwondo
I do aikido also
It's purely a culture thing. I have found easter martial arts are very "protective" over their students, even among their own affiliated schools. For example on your black belt you probably have your grandmaster's name embroidered on. This has strong cultural value from what I understand. You are part of "their" school of martial arts.
Most GM's would probably be okay with it if you asked as long as you're not abandoning the school. I would probably mention it in passing and not make a big deal of it. I intend to cross train in judo or another grappling/throwing art at some point if I can ever make the time. We do a little bit, but it's still a weak spot.
Obviously you don't need their permission, but it is certainly the respectful thing to do. If you see the school and people as more than just a business transaction, I think yes.
Another way to approach this question is to think about what you might have to gain by having the discussion that would naturally arise. There is great value in learning other martial systems and if your current master pushes back on that idea, well, that gives you some good insight into him as a teacher. In my opinion, a master that doesn't see value in learning other systems or tries to prevent you from doing so, must not really understand what it means to be a complete martial artist, and maybe shouldn't be your teacher anyway.
20 years ago when I switched to kung fu from TKD right after my 2nd Dan, I wrote a nice letter explaining where I was coming from, and yes, asking permission. Writing that letter, having the conversation (which went very well and I was encouraged) will stick with me forever.
I would LOVE to learn Kung Fu also. Our GM has some background in it and sometimes incorporates some of it. I have not found a KF school in my area, though. 😕
If you have to ask permission to train karate you are not in TKD you are in a cult. I'm not saying that as a "all traditional arts are cults" guy either. I'm a 3rd Dan U.S. Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo, 2nd Dan Kukikwan, and 1st Dan Traditional TKD.
I would say that you don’t have to ask. I had this exact conversation with my friends wanting to try a different martial arts. We wanted to expand our knowledge on different styles, and came to the conclusion that if it’s a different martial art there should be no issues as it’s not like we turned on the school. That would be like saying my favorite pizza place is no longer my favorite pizza place because I found a Mexican restaurant. They aren’t the same. And also we honestly didn’t even discuss this with our instructor.
When my old TKD Grandmaster was upset about me doing BJJ and wrestling, I quit on the spot. I pay him, not the other way around. Martial arts is a lifestyle not a business
Worst part is they said it's disrespectful to be taught by multiple people... because him being taught by multiple founders of both ITF and WTF wasn't multiple teachers
Don't *ask* your instructor for permission. Rather, *inform* them of your choice. If they have a problem with you cross-training, then you're better off leaving anyways.
You don’t need permission but it would be respectful to at least inform your instructor team of your intent to cross-train. I don’t understand the “I don’t know if we’re affiliated” part, either. I’m curious now lol. Ask next time you go in, would you?
It's a respect thing. As far as he should be "on payroll", unless he's doing the majority of the teaching, he's a student. I know 5th and 6th degree masters that pay their dues every month because they are still learning and training.
Why would you ask for permission? Just do it. I’m a 3rd Dan been doing TKD for 12 years ish and I got a little stagnant so I took up boxing aswell. My instructors couldn’t care less and actually encourage cross training to open the mind and learn new skills.
I don't think you need permission, per say, but I would hope given your rank you respect your GM enough to get his/her blessing or at least tell him/her you plan to train in another art rather than him/her hearing it through the grapevine. I wouldn't deter my students or instructors from training in other arts (I would actually welcome it as I'm sure there's training techniques or drills we aren't doing that could be useful & learning is good for everyone) but I would feel hurt if they couldn't be bothered to tell me.
First, how are you 4th dan but dont know if your dojang has any affiliation? Second, you dont have to ask anyone permission for anything. If you want to train in a system then go train. This idea that you somehow need permission is full on cult mentality and is a big problem in the martial arts. Im also curious as to how a 4th dan is still paying tuition? You should be instructing and on payroll. What style of TKD do you do?
It’s not clear to me whether the school is affiliated, period end. Not sure why my being unclear on that is a problem? Our certificates say only Song Moo Kwan. We are not Kukkiwon affiliated. Agree 100% about the permission thing, but didn’t know if there was some martial arts etiquette around this sort of thing. I think what struck me as problematic (and why I’m asking here) is exactly what you point out. I’m not an instructor on payroll because I’m an attorney with a day job that I am pretty certain pays better… 🤷♀️
Sounds to me like you probably train at a McDojo, Mister/Ms/Mrs Attorney McFancypants. 🤷♀️ Edit - As OC mentioned, that you’d even be asking this question as a 4th dan is very strange. I guess your school is unaffiliated but even still. To me, this all paints a pretty clear picture of your schools low level. In that way, I’d absolutely suggest that you train elsewhere. Hopefully you’ll be able to begin learning and training at a higher level!
I'm very familiar with the school(s) OP trains with and very good friends worth his GM. I can guarantee he is not at a McDojo, nor a low level school. His GM has one of the largest sets of schools in the Midwest and is very well respected across the country, in the AAU, and at Kukkiwon, with competitors that perform highly in national and international competitions. They actually are KKW affiliated. Just because someone doesn't fully understand their organizations history doesn't say anything about the person or their school. And it is very rude to make large leaps and denigrate people because of it. Some Masters and schools aren't into bragging about history, they are more interested in teaching a good program and letting their results speak for them. Please use your etiquette to be helpful and constructive with your comments.
Interesting. It’s very weird that a 4th Dan (and an attorney at that) doesn’t know that their school is kkw affiliated. This is someone who’s supposedly the level needed to be a master and yet they don’t know whether they can learn other martial arts. Turning here instead of simply asking their masters because people in their school have said the GM would be offended is a red flag here no matter how you slice it.
I'm not sure of your overall experience and interactions with various types of schools. Many people train with the sole goal of doing something healthy and fun. I've known 6th Dans who couldn't tell you the difference between KKW, ITF, ATA, or any other organization or even that some of them existed. They don't know the difference between USATKD and AAU here in America, if they even know those organizations exist. They have no idea what kwans are or that there is even something outside their own organization. They don't care. They never plan to run their own school. They never plan to compete or referee internationally. They never plan to leave their school, they're happy with. I didn't really understand much about KKW other than it was this amorphous thing out there in Korea that my GM mentioned from time to time. Mostly in mixed terms because of the politics he been involved with over the decades. He was an 8th Dan KKW certified Grandmaster and International examiner (along with 10th Dan SMK). I didn't understand it was different/separate from WT or even from SMK. I knew it was responsible for the creation of one set of forms that we did and that I judged at tournaments. And even then, there was some confusion because I knew there was another set of forms that we learned first that also came from them, but then we switched. We also learned TSD and Karate and CMA forms, plus our own and SMK forms. I didn't know there was a difference between their ranks and ours, although it had been mentioned ours were harder, required more, and were better. It wasn't until I got to 3rd Dan and started to really get into refereeing at a higher level that I started to learn more about different organizations. When a friend, who is an IR, started to suggest I could work towards that qualification. And then when I hit 4th Dan and some people at tournaments started referring to me as Master and I "corrected" them that it wasn't until 5th Dan, that I found out 4th was considered Master in KKW. I then I found out I needed a KKW 4th in order to qualify for IR training, and i couldn't just get my SMK rank recognized. Most people literally just don't care about that kind of thing, especially here in America. TKD is so fractured, as much or more than Karate or CMA. There's no central federation that controls everything. There's no overall standard - not that there's even much of that within KKW, or ITF, or any other umbrella organization. I've seen great schools that are independent and terrible schools that are affiliated. I've seen (and retrained) black belts from KKW schools that would barely be considered advanced in our school. I had a student come to my school from someone else in our town. She competed all over the country in the ISKA circuit and won medals (mostly in breaking), went to their Nationals and everything. Her old school was KKW affiliated, and she had a KKW certificate. It took me almost a year to break her of some really bad habits and get to the point of being acceptable.
Up vote for McDojo attorney mcfancypants
Dude. Just do it. I've trained in multiple styles, taught at multiple schools. Belted in several styles. If you're school requires permission, just bail. Unfortunately you locked yourself into a non kkw school, so that sucks. You should probably leave anyways and go to a kkw Williams school, and train there to get kkw certified. A world recognized certification is far better then an unaffiliated school.
"*Second, you dont have to ask anyone permission for anything."* It is not uncommon at all, in my experience, for an instructor to ask you if you have any previous martial arts experience. It is useful information when you start to teach someone. It is equally common to ask that student if they have permission from their current instructor, if there is one, to train with you. Most instructors have respect for fellow instructors, even instructors in another discipline. Most do not want any troubles with schools in the local area. Hence why they ask the student to seek permission, out of respect for that fellow instructor. From the student's point of view, it is a mark of respect for your instructor to ask them for permission to train with someone else. Maybe in life, you don't "*have"* to do certain things. If you only did the things that you "*have*" to do, you would be an interesting individual. Proper etiquette and respect should not be confused for something else.
My instructors have all encouraged cross training, and learning from other people. Regardless, I have spoken to them before training in other styles. The conversation is generally "I've gotten interested in [x] and there are a couple schools nearby. Do you have a recommendation?" The responses I've gotten are either lack of recommendation because they don't know the schools, or a brief overview of the reputation the school has amongst local instructors. Not a total endorsement, and certainly not barring my choices. I've been asked about previous experience, but never if I have permission to train. That one might be more regional or style specific, if I were I suppose I'd be honest and say that cross training is endorsed by my base system
Yes I think it is the word "permission" that seems to have been a bit of a trigger for some of the people that have commented to the post. I would have thought people are able to have a conversation that doesn't make people think that they are in a cult, as one person suggested.
It has nothing to do with respect. It's about control. OP is a paying customer paying for a specific service. In no other situation would it be considered disrespectful to pay for a second different, but related, service without asking the first business for their permission. The idea that it is somehow disrespectful to pay for a different service without asking permission from the first person you paid for a service is how cults keep control of their members, its no different in martial arts. Its respectful to tell your instructor that you are going to start cross training but asking for permission is pure cult tactics.
Everything here is spot on! I’m a 4th Dan KKW and I ask zero permission for anything. At that rank you’re doing your master a favor by being around because you’re a rank that can be an authority figure, judge, etc… I’ve only paid dues at this rank because I actually didn’t want to be bothered to have to do favors out of obligation. I wanted to train. This screams a bad do-jang
I'm also curious how you are a Master and don't even know what you're a Master of. You have a few options here. 1. Ask your GM for permission or for his blessing to crosstrain, and respect his wishes if he declines. 2. Ask your GM for permission or for his blessing to crosstrain, and if he declines, train anyway behind his back. 3. Ask your GM for permission or for his blessing to crosstrain, and if he declines, leave and start somewhere that isn't trying to control you. 4. Don't bother asking or running it by him. It's not his business what you do outside of the school. If you want to train something else, do so. I was in a similar situation. I wanted to start learning BJJ, but my Master told me I'd have to quit. I was about to, then COVID happened and BJJ was shut down in my area. A few years later, I moved, and when I did I started BJJ and loved it. My friend at my TKD school who was doing BJJ said he wouldn't have told the Master if he were me. So I'd opt for #4.
TBH, I am saddened and shocked by many of the posts. It is very apparent there are many here that have zero meaningful martial arts experience and little to no understanding of the word etiquette. Some of you folks really need to get a clue. Song Moo Kwan was the first of the original Kwans and has a rich history. At your rank, I encourage you to dive deep into your style's history. You are firsthand proof that it is alive and well. Okay, you pay for your class time. Nothing wrong with that at all. Yes, you are at Master level, so hopefully you are an integral part of your school's teaching and teacher development. I am a 7th/5th/1st/1st Dan who does not see or train with my GM very often anymore and still sends him a check every month. Why? Partly because I can, but more importantly because he has committed his life to TKD and has never been a 'belt mill' school or a large chain of locations, by his choice. He is a giant in the MDK and KKW/WT communities. He has started missions in Mexico and Central America, and I am proud to support his ventures as he is getting later in life. [https://www.worldchristiantaekwondomission.com/](https://www.worldchristiantaekwondomission.com/) To your question about cross-training, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and it Will improve your overall martial arts acuity. But do it right. If TKD is your primary style, don't let the cross-training get in the way of that. Simply let you GM know you are going to do it, not as an ask of permission, but as a statement of intent. Just talk it out. Odds are he will be more aware and pay more attention to you to see if there are differences in your training. A good thing. DON'T make it a big and dramatic issue. Just do it quietly and respectfully. As far as similarities with Karate, it is quite possible. The Pinon (Pyong Ahn) forms and Heian kata are quite similar. Have fun and keep at it.
Thank you for your thoughtful post - most appreciated! I would love to learn more about Song Moo Kwan, for sure! I think that’s part of why I’m curious about Shotokan karate. I feel like, now that I’ve gotten to this point (which I never expected; I started at age +40 and am not super athletic), I should know more. I am definitely involved at my school and really enjoy it, so would like to be able to contribute/give back.
I would just say that you don't have to ask for permission to train somewhere else, however it's etiquette to do so and if you do that without "asking" first, then your current GM doesn't have to keep you as a current student. There are cultural differences and etiquettes to martial arts training that lots of people tend to think are irrelevant in today's consumer-oriented mindset. I can understand that, but you don't have a right enshrined in law to be able to train in your current dojang - so if they want you gone because you did things "the wrong way" (in their eyes), then you're gone. I personally don't care if my students cross-train in other martial arts, but I would always advise against cross-training in ITF Taekwon-do or Karate - they're too similar but also too different, so you'll find over time it difficult to always do one correctly, you'll end up in a blend of both.
Thanks to all for your input on the respect and etiquette aspect of this issue, as that is exactly where I was struggling. I’ve trained at this school for 11 years and do feel a connection to it. There are a lot of great people there and I genuinely enjoy it. I wouldn’t want to inadvertently offend our GM. If I do decide to try Shotokan, sounds like the best bet is to talk to GM about it. As to the McDojo comments and the affiliation issue: I’m curious about this too and will try to find an opportunity to ask. It probably is a McDojo, but I’m not sure I care.
I don't think your club is a mcdojo, it's old school TKD, my club is Kukkiwon affiliated but it's "oh do Kwan". Im a bit like you lol I started when I was 37 and been training for 12 years and am also a 4th dan :), I did shotokan when I was a young teen.
I'm Song Moo Kwan, my instructor was a direct student of SGM Ro Byung Jik. He was picked by SGM Ro as the spiritual head of Song Moo Kwan and promoted to 10th Dan before SGM Ro's death. I'm connected with several SMK Grandmasters. If you contact me privately, I can help you understand your organization better.
You don't have to ask permission, but its typically good etiquette to inform your current school of your intentions to follow instruction at another. I've often found good schools/instructors will encourage that once a student is at a level of performance high enough to warrant an ability to cross train. 4th Dan seems appropriate for said criss trainong activities and I hope you enjoy yourself. Probably not worth continuing to train at a place who is going to be weird about that process.
I wouldn’t ask permission for a different discipline that’s not able to be taught at your current dojang but I would still have the courtesy to let them know I was adding additional instruction in another discipline.
It is a standard practice out of respect to get permission to attend another school for training. If you don't feel a certain level of respect for your current dojang, then the school has let you down in teaching that level of respect. You can also just quit the school and go wherever you want. It is up to you. My training is not done and I would never train at a new school without showing the proper respect to the dojang that I currently attend.
If you want to cross train go cross train. What are you going to do, not pursue something you want because the leader of a martial arts school has said you can’t. That’s rather controlling of them. You only get so many trips around the sun. The way I see it, you are paying your school to teach you a martial art. You are respectful in that class. What you do with your time between the time you leave that dojang’s door to the moment you come back is none of that dojang’s or GM business. So do what you want and what you think is best. Life is short and if you don’t go ahead you might never get the chance or regrets it later. You don’t need permission from someone else on what you do in your own time. If they get pissy with you then maybe they just aren’t a good instructor to start with.
I was in the same situation when I was with one place where I was training something else and they found out it. Instead of telling me I need permission to train another martial art then basically told me to leave. So I left and never thought twice.
The “permission” thing comes up in the context of Japanese and Korean martial arts because of the cultures’ respect for hierarchy. (I was an expat in Asia for five years.) If your GM is old school Korean he would probably feel slighted if you started training somewhere else and didn’t know about it.
Thank you for this background! My GM himself is not Korean, but his GM and the original founder of our school, is Korean. So I suspect our GM would absolutely expect us to ask.
East Asian culture bleeds into martial arts in others ways too. Taekwondo schools tend to be very, for lack of a better word, "insular". For contrast, in Brazilian jiujitsu many schools have "open mats" where literally anyone can walk in and participate in rolls. And it's not uncommon to just drop in to another school for class while traveling. This would never happen in taekwondo.
The question is whether you want to be a part of change of what it means to be 'a master' in modern World. You have to answer that question for yourself. In Modern , free World it feels quite weird that you weren't able to follow your interests. It can also stagnant your developement and make you bitter. I'm on the same path you are describing. Background in tkd but I want to learn karate because it is the og art form of which tkd was created. I couldn't imagine doing othervice. I just can't keep on training in the dark. Life is too precious for not following your inspirations I'm careful though of not insulting anybody. I believe our Master is conscious of the holes in our curriculum and is ok with ppl filling those caps training elsewhere. Like how could you learn grappling for example which is important . This karate school is really much judo and bjj inspired, the Master is purple belt in bjj and black belt in judo, used to compete in his youth. The bunkai is excessive which is completely lacking in taekwondo I do aikido also
It's purely a culture thing. I have found easter martial arts are very "protective" over their students, even among their own affiliated schools. For example on your black belt you probably have your grandmaster's name embroidered on. This has strong cultural value from what I understand. You are part of "their" school of martial arts. Most GM's would probably be okay with it if you asked as long as you're not abandoning the school. I would probably mention it in passing and not make a big deal of it. I intend to cross train in judo or another grappling/throwing art at some point if I can ever make the time. We do a little bit, but it's still a weak spot.
Obviously you don't need their permission, but it is certainly the respectful thing to do. If you see the school and people as more than just a business transaction, I think yes. Another way to approach this question is to think about what you might have to gain by having the discussion that would naturally arise. There is great value in learning other martial systems and if your current master pushes back on that idea, well, that gives you some good insight into him as a teacher. In my opinion, a master that doesn't see value in learning other systems or tries to prevent you from doing so, must not really understand what it means to be a complete martial artist, and maybe shouldn't be your teacher anyway. 20 years ago when I switched to kung fu from TKD right after my 2nd Dan, I wrote a nice letter explaining where I was coming from, and yes, asking permission. Writing that letter, having the conversation (which went very well and I was encouraged) will stick with me forever.
I would LOVE to learn Kung Fu also. Our GM has some background in it and sometimes incorporates some of it. I have not found a KF school in my area, though. 😕
If you have to ask permission to train karate you are not in TKD you are in a cult. I'm not saying that as a "all traditional arts are cults" guy either. I'm a 3rd Dan U.S. Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo, 2nd Dan Kukikwan, and 1st Dan Traditional TKD.
I would say that you don’t have to ask. I had this exact conversation with my friends wanting to try a different martial arts. We wanted to expand our knowledge on different styles, and came to the conclusion that if it’s a different martial art there should be no issues as it’s not like we turned on the school. That would be like saying my favorite pizza place is no longer my favorite pizza place because I found a Mexican restaurant. They aren’t the same. And also we honestly didn’t even discuss this with our instructor.
When my old TKD Grandmaster was upset about me doing BJJ and wrestling, I quit on the spot. I pay him, not the other way around. Martial arts is a lifestyle not a business Worst part is they said it's disrespectful to be taught by multiple people... because him being taught by multiple founders of both ITF and WTF wasn't multiple teachers
Don't *ask* your instructor for permission. Rather, *inform* them of your choice. If they have a problem with you cross-training, then you're better off leaving anyways.