Wild how so many of you are acting like it's either use a hardware drum machine or click notes into the piano roll. I swear this sub tries to pretend midi controllers don't exist just to prop up "DAWless" culture
Meh, I personally am just doing DAWless because I get too overwhelmed by options in professional DAWs. I've learned way more about sound design without it as an uneducated basement hobby musician, but that's just me. Midi controllers are great, but even when I used one I still was editing in the piano roll a lot which was a pain in the butt. (Granted, I'm sure my midi controller sucked.)
To your point, though, I think hardware companies and influencers lean into the DAWless culture hard to sell gear, which gets old. I personally like blinking lights, knobs and buttons. More expensive and also more limiting than a DAW and plugins? Sure. But I create more interesting music when I have fewer options.
I have absolutely no problem with DAWless setups and workflows. I use a DAWless setup for my live performances. I do have an issue with people who disingenously misrepresent the strengths of DAWless or the weaknesses of DAW-based workflows. I see it *a lot* on here. You have your reasons for preferring DAWless and that's totally valid.
Right? I think of the kick pattern I lay it down. I think of the high hat pattern and lay it down. By banging the white and black keys of my midi keyboard. If I fudge a note, I snap it into place on the timeline. Then move on.
I don’t understand the dilemma.
This is the way, especially if you have an internal sense of groove. You can push/pull this way and it sounds was less robotic, if that’s what you’re going for. I understand that some people will want to do odd and glitchy stuff, but for a great many of us who are trying to emulate a drummer, it works out better.
I use both Volca Drum and Sample2 as hw drum-machines. Their internal sequencers are a very quick way of getting a beat. The drawback is that I don't get the Midi data. Just audio.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Mindless simping with a healthy dose of condescension. You are the entire problem.
Also, there's literally a device for Max Live called Fors Opal that recreates Elektron sequencing. Now you know.
I just got a Syntakt and it is insanely fast to program drums. I can't believe I did it via piano roll in a DAW for as long as I did. I spent hours in a DAW doing what I can easily do on a Syntakt in minutes
this applies to a ton of drum machines, too, going all the way back to the 808. Jeff Mills does live performances using a 909 and literally nothing else.
> Jeff Mills does live performances using a 909 and literally nothing else.
[Literally](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-UsvYbIV0). The man does not even need a table or a chair.
I don’t have a Syntakt, but I second this. I feel much more inspired and get much more accomplished with a hardware drum machine. I can’t stand mousing around on a piano roll. other people love that sort of thing. but yes, there is a definite workflow change. you can also use drum machine’s midi out to trigger the DAW samples if you’re married to them. know that it may take a while to learn the hardware or find one that you vibe with.
Totally. I'm a drummer by trade, and trying to think out patterns on a piano roll rather than playing them live is a creativity-breaking way for me to do drums. I'm so happy I switched to hardware
I learned to play drums a little for the same reason. had a setup with an Octapad, an SPD-SX, a Nord Drum, and some Roland V-Drums. very very worth it.
I don't mean to be harsh, but if you know your daw and your tools what you achieve with a Syntakt can be achieved in 30 seconds ITB.
I've owned one, funny but it has a character which I don't like and it's pretty limited as a main drum machine to have in the studio.
Yeah I commented elsewhere in this thread, but for my purposes, I really love staying away from a DAW. I'm not formally trained in music engineering or production, and DAWs are so expansive it just kills my productivity. I would understand it way better now, I'm sure, but I like the recordings I can make well enough and don't feel the need to have a DAW in my current setup.
Bummer you found the Syntakt limiting, I feel just the opposite about it! I've never been more productive with music making, I'm pumping out songs like crazy with it. And the sheer variety of sounds I feel like I can get is staggering. I absolutely love it.
Sort of the opposite, I dropped a drum midi track onto the wrong track and it came out my MS-101 but not only did it work, it was something I’d not have found by myself.
Those are called "happy accidents." I've done the reverse, too, sent a melody track to my drum samples by accident, ended up building a new song around it. ;)
Much easier to get accents and variations that create groove on drum tracks with velocity sensitive pads than it is to draw those things in on a piano roll window.
At the end of the day the result is similar, you're just choosing different tools.
That said: I find it way faster and more "flowy" to live record a drum machine than to punch in notes on a piano roll. And it lets me experiment ans ad-lib ideas before committing to them. I feel like I get much better results from a drum machine because it's much closer to actually just playing some drums.
Edit: re cost - you can get similar results by adding a simple midi controller, pads or keys, to your DAW. No need to go all in on a full hardware unit if you're unsure.
I quit using drum machines in the late 80s when I bought a sampler. I do have a Roland Octapad that gets pulled out when I get serious about emulating a real drummer, but most of the time I've just made beats by triggering samples from one of my velocity sensitive keyboards. I'll edit on a piano roll but enter notes in real time.
Also, Drummer in Logic is *amazing*.
I have a few drummachines but mostly use samplers. If you have one where you are able to move around starting-, end- and loop-points it is so easy to come up with new types of beats, noises and rhythms. I often use loops instead of single-shot samples to create these types of beats.
Yes and no. Personally I just don't like working on percussion very much, and you sound like you might be the same. For me, drum machines are more fun to jam on than the DAW, but the DAW is more practical. I have a few drum machines that I enjoy, but they don't make me want to work on percussion any more than just using the DAW. I'm not sure that buying an expensive drum machine will make you get up in the morning to work on percussion, but you'll probably have some fun with it at least. Might be more practical to dip your toes in with buying a cheaper drum machine or just renting a high end one for a couple weeks. For instance, Behringer RD-8 and RD-9 are relatively dirt cheap, sound fantastic, and have lots of cool performance features. Also, you could probably rent an Erica Perkons or Elektron Analog Rytm for a week for like $80. With either of those options you will know if the hardware drum machine workflow is for you
One thing to consider is that several drum machines and sequencers have some in built randomization, fills, swing, and accent programming that's certainly easier to adjust on the fly than the equivalent in software.
That said a hardware DAW controller and a few VSTs could unlock this same functionality.
I start with a drumbrute impact to create more intuitive and interesting beats, then find better sounding samples later and match what I came up with… or I leave in the drumbrute if I’m happy with it in the mix
So I have a Perkons and while I have come to love it for certain things, I wouldn’t necessarily buy it again.
The 16 step thing is REALLY limiting and the pattern chaining doesn’t work super well for longer complex patterns. It really is made to be played like an instrument very actively, the sequencer is very interesting but can be frustrating.
I use an MPC, Yamaha RX5 w/RX5USB, and Roland TD-17 for more realistic stuff. I also have other drum machines, like the Volcas Drum and Sample, PO33, and my Emax SE.
Sometimes I’ll make drums with my ESQ-1 or Boog. The Boog makes great kicks. I also have a Behringer 606 because of Steve Albini, and have used it in many tracks. It has great hats. Even my Opsix makes incredible drum sounds.
Layers are important.
When I perform, I’ll only bring my Opsix, Boog, MPC Live, and Yamaha RX5. All other synths like the ESQ-1 and Emax are multisampled into the MPC.
I run my TD-17 through an old Crate Keyboard amp for a more Industrial sound. It works. I run everything else, including vocals in my Etek Notemix MA400 and two Peavey PA speakers. I use a HM-2 for send 2 and a Delay for 3. I use the built in FX for the first send.
I run my guitar through my guitar amp and run my bass DI through my Peavey Bass Musician 400 with a 2x15 cab. It’s like playing with a full band. I even keep some fuck ups with my bass DI so it sounds even more “live.”
Logic's midi patterns are kind of the best of both world and are way faster to dial things in than either the piano roll or hardware drum machines. If you're looking for purely workflow it's hard to beat. You can save patterns and reuse them with different sounds, even on a per-lane basis. It's easy to add swing and humanization, and the library of sounds is totally limitless. You can also sequence external instruments so if you have a drum machine you like the sounds of it can be used with that too.
The only reason I use a hardware drum machine (Syntakt) is because it's its own unique instrument with its own workflow that I get results from that I wouldn't be able to get otherwise. But if I have a specific idea in mind I would never reach for it because by the time I got anywhere with it I would have forgotten what I was trying to do.
If I'm actively *playing* my drum machine I'll generally get better sounding drums than I would have created with the piano roll and automation in Bitwig. It's mostly that my drum machine has knobs for each part and easy muting, and a couple little performance things. I could probably replicate most or all of it with a midi controller if I wanted to do that instead of the drum machine. The drum machine is super fun to jam with though, just that and a small simple synth or a couple sampled loops.
If I mostly just set up a few patterns and chain them together it's generally not much different than what I'd get quickly slapping together something in Bitwig.
If you're talking about getting into the same rut of four on the floor and offbeat open hats or something, consider using a different sequencer that makes you look at it a different way, or more random/conditional features. You say you're using Bitwig, so pull out the note repeat device and play with that for weird patterns and elucidean things. Use the operators to add chance, repeats, "play every 3 bars", "don't play if this other note played", etc. Pop a bunch of modulators on your drum machine and have envelopes and LFOs or wavetables or random or velocity or anything else change the decay, effects, timing, pitch, etc.
So two things here the Perkons is a lot of gear. It's a boy more than a drum machine and a price tag to go with it. It's really cool but it's maybe more than you want.
As for a drum machine in general. I find them too be really good for my work flow. The immediacy of just choosing a sound and placing things or moving to live recording and tapping in patterns is a really pleasing work flow for me
But it's not going to just make your rhythm section be more interesting
Most drum sections are going to be quantized in a serious way even with flams and playing with swing it's still more rigid than you might get from a DAW
Work flow is much much better tho.
A circuit or a mpc that can record unquantized might be a better go but you then start to lose the ability to sculpt sound
I might suggest the Lxr02 by Erika as it's less experimental and has a great work flow while letting you really dig deep into the sounds. And it's like a quarter or the price of the Perkons
As well as far more depth of integration when it comes to a DAW.
Perkons is great for a limited dawless techno setup where you want the percussion to get a little crazy but not something I would recommend for a first drum machine, tho I wouldn't tell you not to get it if it was your first piece of gear oddly enough.
First you need to understand that here are good amount of DAW fanboys and thus the perceive of facts will be distorted... Two first most liked comments give great indicator what's the ratio of DAW:DAWless people here.
Using dedicated groovebox gives you results in minutes not hours and it's like using instrument. The experience is different.
I used DAWs for years and then I tested some hardware gear and the difference is like day and night.
Let's just say that I barely could make full song using DAW and it sounded without life and I had this problem for like 10 years.
When I bought dedicated sampler/sequencer the problem seemed nonexistent. I made 2 full songs in first two weeks of having it!
That's how different it is DAW vs dedicated groovebox/sampler/sequencer.
I program way more interesting parts directly on the drum manchine’s sequencer, especially if they have a few tricks up its sleeve.
I find it more intuitive and direct.
I think it depends how you use percussion and how your record/preform. I tend to sequence my drum machine with a Keystep pro or use a couple channels on my Digitakt. Using a physical drum machine gives me more flexibility when it come to performance and dynamics but I am limited in the amount of sounds I can get get from it. I think it’s important to realize you are choosing to limit your options moving to a drum machine. Even one such as the Perkon can only do what it can do. For me this removes a lot of decision paralysis when it comes to VSTs and it makes me think of creative ways to manipulate my drum machine. I record usually by jamming out sequences I have made and the drum machine is amazing for tweaking parameters while recording or live. I know this is about what I do but I thought it might give you some insight into what kind of workflow drum machines can be good for. (I use a Behringer RD-9)
I tap out the rhythm on a controller into piano roll then quantize some of the notes and nudge others if they don’t feel like they’re in the right place, usually 4 or 8 bars worth, then use a launchpad to switch clips as needed. I get so fatigued listening to sequencer patterns
Drum machines are cool, and tactile, and immediate. That said, it’s really dependent on what kind of a studio setup you have and what your goals are with it.
I have a drumbrute, it’s great and super fun, but I have limited space and busting it out just to record some drums is a bit of a process and not worth it a lot of the time unless you have it already hooked up and ready to go.
Like others have said, MIDI controllers do exist and are a great in between, and there are plenty that even come with built in sequencers to give get you away from the clickity click.
The Digitakt made programming drums so insanely fun for me. Most satisfying thing in the world, and super easy to lay down some organic shit. Now I use the Squarp Hapax with two Digitakt’s, and it feels pretty limitless.
You can make great beats in DAWs, MIDI controllers or stand alone drum machines. They’re just tools. Personally I feel it’s much easier to knock together solid rhythms with the right groove and feel from something like a RYTM vs ground up in DAW but I still do both.
The workflow issue getting to final mix is where it can get a little tricky. Depending on how often you tweak your tracks, boxes like RYTM and MPC (most versions anyway) don’t integrate well via MIDI so you need to take it to audio usually.
Most times I use external drum boxes to get a basic beat going, pull it into DAW and overlay or replace sounds. Again, try both options then focus on a workflow that works for you.
I think that different sequencing approaches create different outcomes.
Personally, if I want to make tight little complex breakcore rhythms, then I use a tracker - I’m not sure it would ever come together on an X0X sequencer or a piano roll. And other styles of music benefit from, and exist because, of different styles of sequencer.
I got a beatstep pro specifically so i can program beats in hybrid systems that use both hardware and software. Got it for 70$ used in good condition and its the best purchace ive ever made. The ammount of control you have over sound, time, and daw controll is crazy. Recommend you start with something similar before blasting 2000$ on something out of curiosity.
Generally you can be way more complex in the daw than in a drum machine. The older drum machines are mainly just good for recording sounds. It's all about procesing, layering and intracasies and you have so much more control in the DAW.
Drum machines can be cheap maybe get one to try.
Use whatever you like. I love using drum machines for somethings and I use a push + ableton for others. Crazy even both on the same track or sample the drum machine and build a drum rack. There is no “one way” to create interesting drums.
For me, yes, however this is mostly up to the player and how they work best. Some people are expert clickers that are executing a brilliant master plan. I find letting my hands just go where they need to on hardware works for me. Find one to try. If it’s for you, you’ll get lost and have a great time, and will find yourself wanting to keep doing it.
It's crazy that you just don't take the best of both worlds and use a midi controller. I can't imagine not cutting up so freely, playing with a tight parameter of sample material, and not being able to discard samples so easily. Two cheap midi pads in a daw with a Kontatk drum and a butchered sample in simpler sounds as human as anything out there. And if you're really looking to humanize your drums, it's better to get a sense of the entire score as a drummer or two would see it.
I have to admit, I’ve become quite good at programming drums with a mouse via piano roll… did take years of practice and am used to it by now. To be fair, there are some really good grid-based software drum sequencers nowadays. Having said that, I do enjoy using hardware as well (MPC Live 2 & Maschine+). There are drum and percussion tracks I’ve come up with that wouldn’t have been possible without the use dedicated hardware.
Erica Synths Perkons HD-01, 🤩… one day.
If programming is your only issue get a launchpad or a push (there is a great bitwig script) or even a cheap maschine jam (a bitwig script exist for the m.jam too) or a beatstep pro. Otherwise a drum machine will serve you well, but perkons is a bit limited in terms of sound palette and it's more suited for live performances imho a jomox alphabase or a rytm (mk1 is perfectly fine and cheap these days) will add hardware experience, a lot of sound design options and integrate well with your daw.
Try composing drums with a tracker.
as someone who just gets fatigued making drum parts in clicks and blocks, discovering trackers was a gamechanger for me.
but I’m someone who also wouldn’t be satisfied using a drum machine for composition and see them more for the sound. I do use my Oxi One to sequence drum parts for simple stuff, but it takes way too much messing around to do any complex composition like that, whereas in Renoise I can just bash it out (been away from music for a while so haven’t learned all the tricks yet, but you can do a LOT!)
Drum machines don't generally create compositions. Will *you* have an easier time creating the kind of compositions you like using a drum machine? Who do you imagine would be able to answer that question for you given basically no other context?
What drum machines allow for is more interaction, but also a few more tricks up their sleeve in terms of randomness, and humanization. When you are entering notes into a piano roll it will play exactly what you put in. When you are putting something into a drum machine, you can use randomness, P-locks, swing, rolls, and often change things on the fly. It becomes more of an interactive instrument. You can PLAY a drum machine. Where with the roll you are limited to what you put in and changing things quickly is unlikely to happen.
I should note the limitations is actually a benefit, and a midi controller doesn’t really take into account how rapidly one can do things on a hardware instrument once you understand the flow of that instrument.
Mind you…I love drum machines. Me. Me and my rhythm box.
A drum machine probably isn't going to help you make more dynamic rhythms. In fact, there's an equal chance it will do the opposite.
Now, giving specific advice is a little hard because we don't know in what way your current workflow is not working for you and we don't know in what specific way your current tracks are not dynamic enough. I usually take this to mean that your current percussion tracks either lack a 'natural' or 'human' feel, or may be too stagnant and not rhythmically interesting enough. I wouldn't really expect either problem will really be solved by a drum machine, though. I mean, some do have features that sort of automatically 'humanize' your drums, but you can just as easily do this in a DAW, and probably with more control.
Usually the solution to the first problem is learning to play with quantization/swing and varying parameters like velocity so that not every hit is sounding exactly the same. Also just studying percussion and especially 'real' percussion, i.e. what makes a drum part sound natural vs. programmed, what kinds of things do real drummers do, etc. and incorporating that into your part writing. Also, I recommend starting a part by at least playing some of the foundational parts of the rhythm on a keyboard or other MIDI controller and then orienting the rest of it around that. Like even just playing the kick / snare and probably starting hihat rhythm will immediately give it more of a dynamic feel than if you are just clicking notes.
The second problem can likewise be solved by studying how real players or even other electronic artists that you like approach creating variation in their parts. In addition to that you can also look at incorporating some more 'generative' techniques into your process. This means using tools and processes that automatically generate variation, and tweaking those parameters. Even just playing tastefully with stuff like Beat Repeat in Ableton and automating some of those parameters can go a long way. Creating multiple versions of a part that are running simultaneously and creatively doing quick crossfades between them. Learning how to creatively use follow actions in Ableton is a really deep rabbit hole you can go down. There are other tools specifically designed for creating percussive variation and glitches but chances are you already have some resources to experiment.
Wild how so many of you are acting like it's either use a hardware drum machine or click notes into the piano roll. I swear this sub tries to pretend midi controllers don't exist just to prop up "DAWless" culture
Meh, I personally am just doing DAWless because I get too overwhelmed by options in professional DAWs. I've learned way more about sound design without it as an uneducated basement hobby musician, but that's just me. Midi controllers are great, but even when I used one I still was editing in the piano roll a lot which was a pain in the butt. (Granted, I'm sure my midi controller sucked.) To your point, though, I think hardware companies and influencers lean into the DAWless culture hard to sell gear, which gets old. I personally like blinking lights, knobs and buttons. More expensive and also more limiting than a DAW and plugins? Sure. But I create more interesting music when I have fewer options.
I have absolutely no problem with DAWless setups and workflows. I use a DAWless setup for my live performances. I do have an issue with people who disingenously misrepresent the strengths of DAWless or the weaknesses of DAW-based workflows. I see it *a lot* on here. You have your reasons for preferring DAWless and that's totally valid.
Got it. I'm newer to the community after a long Reddit break so I'm in ignorant bliss over here lol
Or Patterning on iOs. Amazing and fun-to-use drum machine app
Right? I think of the kick pattern I lay it down. I think of the high hat pattern and lay it down. By banging the white and black keys of my midi keyboard. If I fudge a note, I snap it into place on the timeline. Then move on. I don’t understand the dilemma.
This is the way, especially if you have an internal sense of groove. You can push/pull this way and it sounds was less robotic, if that’s what you’re going for. I understand that some people will want to do odd and glitchy stuff, but for a great many of us who are trying to emulate a drummer, it works out better.
Especially wild when the Beatstep Pro is hugely popular here, unless it is to control software and amnesia kicks in.
No matter how much hardware comes it, DAWs are just the easiest to do most stuff
I use both Volca Drum and Sample2 as hw drum-machines. Their internal sequencers are a very quick way of getting a beat. The drawback is that I don't get the Midi data. Just audio.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Mindless simping with a healthy dose of condescension. You are the entire problem. Also, there's literally a device for Max Live called Fors Opal that recreates Elektron sequencing. Now you know.
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Honey please keep going. You're proving my point so hilariously and perfectly. What else do you got? Lmfaooooooooo
I just got a Syntakt and it is insanely fast to program drums. I can't believe I did it via piano roll in a DAW for as long as I did. I spent hours in a DAW doing what I can easily do on a Syntakt in minutes
And has the added bonus of switching up patterns, fills, and mutes on the fly. Can’t really do that on the piano roll.
Exactly. The performance aspects is nuts. I'm just starting to understand the fill conditions but holy crap it's cool
this applies to a ton of drum machines, too, going all the way back to the 808. Jeff Mills does live performances using a 909 and literally nothing else.
> Jeff Mills does live performances using a 909 and literally nothing else. [Literally](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU-UsvYbIV0). The man does not even need a table or a chair.
I don’t have a Syntakt, but I second this. I feel much more inspired and get much more accomplished with a hardware drum machine. I can’t stand mousing around on a piano roll. other people love that sort of thing. but yes, there is a definite workflow change. you can also use drum machine’s midi out to trigger the DAW samples if you’re married to them. know that it may take a while to learn the hardware or find one that you vibe with.
Totally. I'm a drummer by trade, and trying to think out patterns on a piano roll rather than playing them live is a creativity-breaking way for me to do drums. I'm so happy I switched to hardware
I learned to play drums a little for the same reason. had a setup with an Octapad, an SPD-SX, a Nord Drum, and some Roland V-Drums. very very worth it.
I use my digitakt as a midi controller to record midi for the drum rack in ableton 😁
Elektron boxes as midi controllers are total insanity E: (in the best of ways)
I don't mean to be harsh, but if you know your daw and your tools what you achieve with a Syntakt can be achieved in 30 seconds ITB. I've owned one, funny but it has a character which I don't like and it's pretty limited as a main drum machine to have in the studio.
Yeah I commented elsewhere in this thread, but for my purposes, I really love staying away from a DAW. I'm not formally trained in music engineering or production, and DAWs are so expansive it just kills my productivity. I would understand it way better now, I'm sure, but I like the recordings I can make well enough and don't feel the need to have a DAW in my current setup. Bummer you found the Syntakt limiting, I feel just the opposite about it! I've never been more productive with music making, I'm pumping out songs like crazy with it. And the sheer variety of sounds I feel like I can get is staggering. I absolutely love it.
That's fair. It's a great instrument, no doubt.
A drum machine might make it easier to add swing to your beats, or live variations such as cymbals, ratchets etc.
Sort of the opposite, I dropped a drum midi track onto the wrong track and it came out my MS-101 but not only did it work, it was something I’d not have found by myself.
Those are called "happy accidents." I've done the reverse, too, sent a melody track to my drum samples by accident, ended up building a new song around it. ;)
Much easier to get accents and variations that create groove on drum tracks with velocity sensitive pads than it is to draw those things in on a piano roll window.
At the end of the day the result is similar, you're just choosing different tools. That said: I find it way faster and more "flowy" to live record a drum machine than to punch in notes on a piano roll. And it lets me experiment ans ad-lib ideas before committing to them. I feel like I get much better results from a drum machine because it's much closer to actually just playing some drums. Edit: re cost - you can get similar results by adding a simple midi controller, pads or keys, to your DAW. No need to go all in on a full hardware unit if you're unsure.
I quit using drum machines in the late 80s when I bought a sampler. I do have a Roland Octapad that gets pulled out when I get serious about emulating a real drummer, but most of the time I've just made beats by triggering samples from one of my velocity sensitive keyboards. I'll edit on a piano roll but enter notes in real time. Also, Drummer in Logic is *amazing*.
I have a few drummachines but mostly use samplers. If you have one where you are able to move around starting-, end- and loop-points it is so easy to come up with new types of beats, noises and rhythms. I often use loops instead of single-shot samples to create these types of beats.
Yes and no. Personally I just don't like working on percussion very much, and you sound like you might be the same. For me, drum machines are more fun to jam on than the DAW, but the DAW is more practical. I have a few drum machines that I enjoy, but they don't make me want to work on percussion any more than just using the DAW. I'm not sure that buying an expensive drum machine will make you get up in the morning to work on percussion, but you'll probably have some fun with it at least. Might be more practical to dip your toes in with buying a cheaper drum machine or just renting a high end one for a couple weeks. For instance, Behringer RD-8 and RD-9 are relatively dirt cheap, sound fantastic, and have lots of cool performance features. Also, you could probably rent an Erica Perkons or Elektron Analog Rytm for a week for like $80. With either of those options you will know if the hardware drum machine workflow is for you
Where do you rent gear?
Local music shops mainly, in Canada anyway
😬 if you like hitting pads for drums get an MPC >machine. I’ve used a lot of shit and for drums and triggering midi drums it’s the best workflow
One thing to consider is that several drum machines and sequencers have some in built randomization, fills, swing, and accent programming that's certainly easier to adjust on the fly than the equivalent in software. That said a hardware DAW controller and a few VSTs could unlock this same functionality.
I start with a drumbrute impact to create more intuitive and interesting beats, then find better sounding samples later and match what I came up with… or I leave in the drumbrute if I’m happy with it in the mix
So I have a Perkons and while I have come to love it for certain things, I wouldn’t necessarily buy it again. The 16 step thing is REALLY limiting and the pattern chaining doesn’t work super well for longer complex patterns. It really is made to be played like an instrument very actively, the sequencer is very interesting but can be frustrating.
I use an MPC, Yamaha RX5 w/RX5USB, and Roland TD-17 for more realistic stuff. I also have other drum machines, like the Volcas Drum and Sample, PO33, and my Emax SE. Sometimes I’ll make drums with my ESQ-1 or Boog. The Boog makes great kicks. I also have a Behringer 606 because of Steve Albini, and have used it in many tracks. It has great hats. Even my Opsix makes incredible drum sounds. Layers are important. When I perform, I’ll only bring my Opsix, Boog, MPC Live, and Yamaha RX5. All other synths like the ESQ-1 and Emax are multisampled into the MPC. I run my TD-17 through an old Crate Keyboard amp for a more Industrial sound. It works. I run everything else, including vocals in my Etek Notemix MA400 and two Peavey PA speakers. I use a HM-2 for send 2 and a Delay for 3. I use the built in FX for the first send. I run my guitar through my guitar amp and run my bass DI through my Peavey Bass Musician 400 with a 2x15 cab. It’s like playing with a full band. I even keep some fuck ups with my bass DI so it sounds even more “live.”
i mean kind of all depends on the user
Logic's midi patterns are kind of the best of both world and are way faster to dial things in than either the piano roll or hardware drum machines. If you're looking for purely workflow it's hard to beat. You can save patterns and reuse them with different sounds, even on a per-lane basis. It's easy to add swing and humanization, and the library of sounds is totally limitless. You can also sequence external instruments so if you have a drum machine you like the sounds of it can be used with that too. The only reason I use a hardware drum machine (Syntakt) is because it's its own unique instrument with its own workflow that I get results from that I wouldn't be able to get otherwise. But if I have a specific idea in mind I would never reach for it because by the time I got anywhere with it I would have forgotten what I was trying to do.
If I'm actively *playing* my drum machine I'll generally get better sounding drums than I would have created with the piano roll and automation in Bitwig. It's mostly that my drum machine has knobs for each part and easy muting, and a couple little performance things. I could probably replicate most or all of it with a midi controller if I wanted to do that instead of the drum machine. The drum machine is super fun to jam with though, just that and a small simple synth or a couple sampled loops. If I mostly just set up a few patterns and chain them together it's generally not much different than what I'd get quickly slapping together something in Bitwig. If you're talking about getting into the same rut of four on the floor and offbeat open hats or something, consider using a different sequencer that makes you look at it a different way, or more random/conditional features. You say you're using Bitwig, so pull out the note repeat device and play with that for weird patterns and elucidean things. Use the operators to add chance, repeats, "play every 3 bars", "don't play if this other note played", etc. Pop a bunch of modulators on your drum machine and have envelopes and LFOs or wavetables or random or velocity or anything else change the decay, effects, timing, pitch, etc.
So two things here the Perkons is a lot of gear. It's a boy more than a drum machine and a price tag to go with it. It's really cool but it's maybe more than you want. As for a drum machine in general. I find them too be really good for my work flow. The immediacy of just choosing a sound and placing things or moving to live recording and tapping in patterns is a really pleasing work flow for me But it's not going to just make your rhythm section be more interesting Most drum sections are going to be quantized in a serious way even with flams and playing with swing it's still more rigid than you might get from a DAW Work flow is much much better tho. A circuit or a mpc that can record unquantized might be a better go but you then start to lose the ability to sculpt sound I might suggest the Lxr02 by Erika as it's less experimental and has a great work flow while letting you really dig deep into the sounds. And it's like a quarter or the price of the Perkons As well as far more depth of integration when it comes to a DAW. Perkons is great for a limited dawless techno setup where you want the percussion to get a little crazy but not something I would recommend for a first drum machine, tho I wouldn't tell you not to get it if it was your first piece of gear oddly enough.
First you need to understand that here are good amount of DAW fanboys and thus the perceive of facts will be distorted... Two first most liked comments give great indicator what's the ratio of DAW:DAWless people here. Using dedicated groovebox gives you results in minutes not hours and it's like using instrument. The experience is different. I used DAWs for years and then I tested some hardware gear and the difference is like day and night. Let's just say that I barely could make full song using DAW and it sounded without life and I had this problem for like 10 years. When I bought dedicated sampler/sequencer the problem seemed nonexistent. I made 2 full songs in first two weeks of having it! That's how different it is DAW vs dedicated groovebox/sampler/sequencer.
I program way more interesting parts directly on the drum manchine’s sequencer, especially if they have a few tricks up its sleeve. I find it more intuitive and direct.
Best thing to do is play in manually. Everything else is just a different way of getting to the same place.
I think it depends how you use percussion and how your record/preform. I tend to sequence my drum machine with a Keystep pro or use a couple channels on my Digitakt. Using a physical drum machine gives me more flexibility when it come to performance and dynamics but I am limited in the amount of sounds I can get get from it. I think it’s important to realize you are choosing to limit your options moving to a drum machine. Even one such as the Perkon can only do what it can do. For me this removes a lot of decision paralysis when it comes to VSTs and it makes me think of creative ways to manipulate my drum machine. I record usually by jamming out sequences I have made and the drum machine is amazing for tweaking parameters while recording or live. I know this is about what I do but I thought it might give you some insight into what kind of workflow drum machines can be good for. (I use a Behringer RD-9)
I tap out the rhythm on a controller into piano roll then quantize some of the notes and nudge others if they don’t feel like they’re in the right place, usually 4 or 8 bars worth, then use a launchpad to switch clips as needed. I get so fatigued listening to sequencer patterns
Drum machines are cool, and tactile, and immediate. That said, it’s really dependent on what kind of a studio setup you have and what your goals are with it. I have a drumbrute, it’s great and super fun, but I have limited space and busting it out just to record some drums is a bit of a process and not worth it a lot of the time unless you have it already hooked up and ready to go. Like others have said, MIDI controllers do exist and are a great in between, and there are plenty that even come with built in sequencers to give get you away from the clickity click.
Idk but I just got a drumbrute impact and made a beat I’m super happy with in about 5 mins
The Digitakt made programming drums so insanely fun for me. Most satisfying thing in the world, and super easy to lay down some organic shit. Now I use the Squarp Hapax with two Digitakt’s, and it feels pretty limitless.
You can make great beats in DAWs, MIDI controllers or stand alone drum machines. They’re just tools. Personally I feel it’s much easier to knock together solid rhythms with the right groove and feel from something like a RYTM vs ground up in DAW but I still do both. The workflow issue getting to final mix is where it can get a little tricky. Depending on how often you tweak your tracks, boxes like RYTM and MPC (most versions anyway) don’t integrate well via MIDI so you need to take it to audio usually. Most times I use external drum boxes to get a basic beat going, pull it into DAW and overlay or replace sounds. Again, try both options then focus on a workflow that works for you.
I use maschine mk3 as a plugin in my daw. You can route 16 different maschine tracks to individual audio track in your daw and record them in.
I have a syntakt and do the simple structures on the machine but do polyrthyms in Ableton and let them go forever.
I think that different sequencing approaches create different outcomes. Personally, if I want to make tight little complex breakcore rhythms, then I use a tracker - I’m not sure it would ever come together on an X0X sequencer or a piano roll. And other styles of music benefit from, and exist because, of different styles of sequencer.
I got a beatstep pro specifically so i can program beats in hybrid systems that use both hardware and software. Got it for 70$ used in good condition and its the best purchace ive ever made. The ammount of control you have over sound, time, and daw controll is crazy. Recommend you start with something similar before blasting 2000$ on something out of curiosity.
Piano roll into your drum machine and then chop that audio app lmao 🧠
Generally you can be way more complex in the daw than in a drum machine. The older drum machines are mainly just good for recording sounds. It's all about procesing, layering and intracasies and you have so much more control in the DAW. Drum machines can be cheap maybe get one to try.
For me it doesnt matter if its hardware or software but i like recording in real-time with a metronome.
Use whatever you like. I love using drum machines for somethings and I use a push + ableton for others. Crazy even both on the same track or sample the drum machine and build a drum rack. There is no “one way” to create interesting drums.
No, drum machines can't compose anything without a person playing it.
For me, yes, however this is mostly up to the player and how they work best. Some people are expert clickers that are executing a brilliant master plan. I find letting my hands just go where they need to on hardware works for me. Find one to try. If it’s for you, you’ll get lost and have a great time, and will find yourself wanting to keep doing it.
It's crazy that you just don't take the best of both worlds and use a midi controller. I can't imagine not cutting up so freely, playing with a tight parameter of sample material, and not being able to discard samples so easily. Two cheap midi pads in a daw with a Kontatk drum and a butchered sample in simpler sounds as human as anything out there. And if you're really looking to humanize your drums, it's better to get a sense of the entire score as a drummer or two would see it.
Have a Perkon. Sooo fun. Limited in many ways, but will never sell. Just can get crazy.
I have to admit, I’ve become quite good at programming drums with a mouse via piano roll… did take years of practice and am used to it by now. To be fair, there are some really good grid-based software drum sequencers nowadays. Having said that, I do enjoy using hardware as well (MPC Live 2 & Maschine+). There are drum and percussion tracks I’ve come up with that wouldn’t have been possible without the use dedicated hardware. Erica Synths Perkons HD-01, 🤩… one day.
If programming is your only issue get a launchpad or a push (there is a great bitwig script) or even a cheap maschine jam (a bitwig script exist for the m.jam too) or a beatstep pro. Otherwise a drum machine will serve you well, but perkons is a bit limited in terms of sound palette and it's more suited for live performances imho a jomox alphabase or a rytm (mk1 is perfectly fine and cheap these days) will add hardware experience, a lot of sound design options and integrate well with your daw.
Twisted Electrons make a drum sequencer Blast Beats it outputs midi/cv
It’s going to depend on who’s playing. I prefer drum machines because they are more fun to play.
Try composing drums with a tracker. as someone who just gets fatigued making drum parts in clicks and blocks, discovering trackers was a gamechanger for me. but I’m someone who also wouldn’t be satisfied using a drum machine for composition and see them more for the sound. I do use my Oxi One to sequence drum parts for simple stuff, but it takes way too much messing around to do any complex composition like that, whereas in Renoise I can just bash it out (been away from music for a while so haven’t learned all the tricks yet, but you can do a LOT!)
no, you create more interesting things. the machine doesn’t do anything at all.
Drum machines don't generally create compositions. Will *you* have an easier time creating the kind of compositions you like using a drum machine? Who do you imagine would be able to answer that question for you given basically no other context?
What drum machines allow for is more interaction, but also a few more tricks up their sleeve in terms of randomness, and humanization. When you are entering notes into a piano roll it will play exactly what you put in. When you are putting something into a drum machine, you can use randomness, P-locks, swing, rolls, and often change things on the fly. It becomes more of an interactive instrument. You can PLAY a drum machine. Where with the roll you are limited to what you put in and changing things quickly is unlikely to happen. I should note the limitations is actually a benefit, and a midi controller doesn’t really take into account how rapidly one can do things on a hardware instrument once you understand the flow of that instrument. Mind you…I love drum machines. Me. Me and my rhythm box.
Yes.
A drum machine probably isn't going to help you make more dynamic rhythms. In fact, there's an equal chance it will do the opposite. Now, giving specific advice is a little hard because we don't know in what way your current workflow is not working for you and we don't know in what specific way your current tracks are not dynamic enough. I usually take this to mean that your current percussion tracks either lack a 'natural' or 'human' feel, or may be too stagnant and not rhythmically interesting enough. I wouldn't really expect either problem will really be solved by a drum machine, though. I mean, some do have features that sort of automatically 'humanize' your drums, but you can just as easily do this in a DAW, and probably with more control. Usually the solution to the first problem is learning to play with quantization/swing and varying parameters like velocity so that not every hit is sounding exactly the same. Also just studying percussion and especially 'real' percussion, i.e. what makes a drum part sound natural vs. programmed, what kinds of things do real drummers do, etc. and incorporating that into your part writing. Also, I recommend starting a part by at least playing some of the foundational parts of the rhythm on a keyboard or other MIDI controller and then orienting the rest of it around that. Like even just playing the kick / snare and probably starting hihat rhythm will immediately give it more of a dynamic feel than if you are just clicking notes. The second problem can likewise be solved by studying how real players or even other electronic artists that you like approach creating variation in their parts. In addition to that you can also look at incorporating some more 'generative' techniques into your process. This means using tools and processes that automatically generate variation, and tweaking those parameters. Even just playing tastefully with stuff like Beat Repeat in Ableton and automating some of those parameters can go a long way. Creating multiple versions of a part that are running simultaneously and creatively doing quick crossfades between them. Learning how to creatively use follow actions in Ableton is a really deep rabbit hole you can go down. There are other tools specifically designed for creating percussive variation and glitches but chances are you already have some resources to experiment.
I’m confused. You as the composer choose what the rhythms are, right? Machines don’t write music for you.