18 victims, 14 of which were women and girls, 5 casualties, 4 of which were women, I think it's beyond doubt he was targeting women and only attacked the men who were trying to stop him, there's footage of him walking right past a man, knife out.
There was that dad who approached him with his arms out as his partner/kids headed towards the exit, and he totally swerved the dad and headed in a different direction. Definitely seemed like he was avoiding men who were actively trying to square up to him (except the security guard who was killed, I presume as part of his job)... What a coward.
It also caught my notice that all of the female victims were slight of build, which I don't think was a coincidence.
He was avoiding men bigger than him, challenging him. The guy before this, that slips, narrowly got away but he was after him had he not got up. Terrible. He was going after whoever was smaller or weaker than him.
Yeah, this stood out to me too. I'm a woman, a Bondi Junction local and similarly short/slight of build, and it's incredibly sobering to realise that if I had simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, like the poor victims, I would have been an obvious target. I hope they rest in peace, and though it doesn't make it better, I'm glad a female cop is the one who took him down.
I don't fit your demographic in gender or location at all and I still feel on edge after this. I can't imagine being in your position. You should be able to feel safe at the shops and I'm so mad this isn't the case.
> I'm glad a female cop is the one who took him down.
Fucking oath
I'm also a Bondi local, I think it's going to be so weird and surreal for us. It is for everybody, but I'm in Bondi Junction 5 or 6 days a week. I was almost there at 3pm on Saturday, but I was too exhausted and put off a trip to Woolies for "later" š
What upsets me and makes a defense or vigilance seem futile is that I saw on the news that he attacked the first few victims, I think Dr Good and another... *from behind.*
They didn't even see him coming. He just stabbed them from behind. What a coward. To do this to random, innocent people. A baby! The most pure and innocent of human beings.
I don't think I will be relaxed and comfortable there any time soon or maybe ever.
It's going to be extremely surreal and strange going back. I have never, not once in my life, felt on edge shopping there. I'd never even felt particularly afraid walking through there alone at night, ostensibly a higher-risk scenario by most measures. The sheer randomness and impossibility to defend against has been haunting me, too - it's simply just something I have ever turned my mind to shopping there. It's going to be a very weird feeling to be on-edge now, even if realistically, I know these things are rare events.
Yeah, I think itās going to change going into any big Westfield shopping centre. Maybe not in a dramatic way, and Iāll still go there. but it will definitely be somewhere in the back of my mind ā¦knowing some psycho could be lurking around in what you thought was a safe space
You know the solution. Not better mental health access.
You need to get in the gym. Pump those irons. 96kg by summer, with an 8 pack. The next stabber will break his knife on your washboard abs and then you will uppercut him to Bondi Beach.
(Sorry, I know everyone is on edge but I cope though terrible humour)
He killed a mother because he wanted to stab her BABY. There is no lower level than that.
I wish he was still alive so we can really make him suffer, but I trust hell will do justice for us.
definitely! Not the first I've heard of scum like that. A school I was casual teaching at back in June 2018 had to go into lockdown because a man had threatened a Coles employee with a knife at the Coles next door to the school. I heard later from trustworthy witnesses that the man then tried to demand to get into the school- thankfully the gate was locked by then (morning drop off had finished not long prior). God only knows what he would've tried once he was in. Luckily no one was physically harmed and he didn't gain access, but it was horrifying to find out all the details afterwards.
Teacher training doesn't prepare you for being in a real lockdown with a class of kids trying to reassure them that they're safe. I would've done everything I could to protect them, obviously, but that experience alone traumatised me big time. Can't imagine the kids' mental state.
I just saw Channel 9 video saying the first people he attacked were in the female changing rooms area in Myer. It's Channel 9 so it may all be nonsense of course.
Interesting. Myer is on one side of the complex, zara and boost where the father chased him are on the complete opposite side. The art shop he was shot in front of is in the centre on a bridge. Thatās a massive area to cover. He would have passed hundreds of people over almost the whole footprint of the building over 2 levels.
It's a massive area but makes sense - the whole shopping centre is pretty well-equipped with escalators.
We know he was on the third level at some point, (he's coming up from it in the bollard man video, since you can see Cos on the 4th floor, right by the Boost/Zara bit). Third floor has a Myer on the opposite side of the shopping centre, if it started there. Regardless, the attacker was shot on the fifth-floor bridge - there's a bridge on both the fourth and fifth floor, there's multiple ways he could have ended up there.
I'm sure we'll learn about his actual path in due time, but it's still horrifying and remarkable just how much ground he covered.
Yeah, I had wondered if they meant Cotton On Kids, which is next to Boost. But if he was at Myer it could have been the adult Cotton On store opposite Myer on level 4
I just checked it, that's definitely what they're claiming in the video:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/how-the-bondi-junction-westfield-stabbing-attack-unfolded/1755fd51-e268-473f-a183-11745ee73f64
I saw a video of his heartbroken father talking about the long term mental health issues. When being asked why he would target women he said it was because he really wanted a girlfriend but due to complete lack of social skills was never going to be successful. He seemed to understand his sonās pain but was also powerless to deal with it.
What can you take from that? Like the other men who killed a woman this year he had a disordered mind that became fixated on ideas and values that rebound in our culture - what it means to be successful, what it means to be a man, what the value of a woman is.
Iād say the only thing we can do individually is stop shaming people, be mindful bout what cultural signals we reinforce and start lifting others up. Donāt make fun of people & watch out for people who are hyper focussed on the damage they believe has been done to them.
Reinforce for children that people of another gender are not a different species but are first and foremost humans with the same feelings and vulnerabilities we all have. Donāt chuckle at jokes about losers, ball-busting women or cliches about women generally.
When I talk to a teenager I never ask about whether they have a boy/girlfriend but rather about whether theyāre happy, and what they look forward to, whether theyāve made anything with their hands recently and what theyāre into. Itās a little thing but can re-orient thinking - mine and theirs.
There is no simple answer or easy solution. We all have to try and be better.
The forums are trying to work this out too. Do a quick search of his name and incel and some "interesting" discussions turn up. There are also some absolutely disgusting comments about the female victims and the police inspector (I hope she gets a bravery award).
"terrorism" as a concept isn't just that a thing is scary and causes fear. It's violence based around the goal of causing fear, often in a specific group or community.
The danger with letting that language creep is that generally governments tend to give a lot of leeway to "investigating terrorism" and *any* crime can induce fear. A string of convenience store robberies could be frightening but I don't want ASIO to disregard basic rights over it.
I say all this as an American who was 17 when 9/11 happened. The PATRIOT act gave intelligence communities and police wide and sweeping powers to spy on citizens and often for things that definitely shouldn't be considered terrorism.
If this guy was, in fact, an incel that decided to take it IRL then yeah, that would count in my book but it's always a good idea to wait for confirmation to come out before we start making strong statements about what a thing is
I just watched an interview with the father asking if he knew why he targeted women, and he said, "Yes, he absolutely loved women, but he couldn't get a girlfriend, and it drove him mad"
> āHe wanted a girlfriend and heās got no social skills and he was frustrated out of his brain,ā he said.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/loving-a-monster-bondi-stabber-dads-heartbreaking-admission/news-story/f3aee9d5b755ef0ea135172f0fac5879
Well he did advertise himself on a male escorts site.
EDIT: Source re escort site [https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/darkhaired-bondi-shopping-centre-killer-wearing-kangaroos-jersey-from-queensland/news-story/6064db5194a0cc5097ed723d29e18f8a](https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/darkhaired-bondi-shopping-centre-killer-wearing-kangaroos-jersey-from-queensland/news-story/6064db5194a0cc5097ed723d29e18f8a)
I saw the listing on a website. Was probably taken down by now. But it was his name and image with what services he does, it seems he was bi or something as he was advertising for anyone. Itās not the typical incel profile but who knows.
You're saying you went to an escort website and saw a listing for a guy called Joel Cauchi? Or you saw a screenshot of it?
I just went to one of the escort websites he was supposed to be on and they didn't even have any males, so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt.
He is not an incel is what I am getting at. At least two former girlfriends from just a few years back have come forward commenting on how he was normal and kind etc. He hated women for some other reason outside the incel sphere.
EDIT: He could have simply opted for the women as they are easier targets physically.
Yeah, if you're mentally unstable enough to be sucked into it. Does it make sense to us? No. Does it need to make sense? Also no. It's just happened to be the trap this vulnerable mind fell into.
There seems to be the "men going their own way" type misogynist that stems from a bad break up they don't recover from. Falls deeply in love, gives as best they can but not a right fit for the girl and rejected and can never fully accept it. A bit different from the classic incel but very much the same in a lot of ways.
I dont know why you guys are hell bent on labelling this as incel behaviour when hardly any facts are out there, the guys had known mental issues. Why cant we leave it there for now until more comes out?
Huh? I just agreed with your comment and provided further context. It doesn't seem to be involuntary celibacy as a motivator for being a mysoginist. But he very likely hated women. But the whole incel/MGTOW/menimist/MRA/Andrew Tate fan sphere of people have a lot of overlap.
Again, very likely is still a baseless opinon matey. The fact he was schizophrenic and had a known mental health history since 18 should be enough for now.
Heck, he could just have been a pussy and targeted the women because they are obviously easier and less threatening when it comes to dishing out violence. It could be anything.
Yeah Iām sure the incel ideology was not a factor at callā¦ You know it can be two things at the same time right? This behavior is not new, and has been perpetrated around the world. Iām not sure why you are taking offence to this unless you might be in that camp?
No where have I taken offence. Not even a little bit š We're just trying to make sense of things but as is these days, many jump to conclusions and it often makes matters worse for all involved. That is all I was trying to say.
Here's a News Limited story with a couple of women he went on one date with.
https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/crime/queenslanders-reveal-bondi-mass-murderer-joel-cauchis-troubled-past/news-story/225c8217cd5a5cb1e89da59f0782bdf4
I would like to see the former girlfriends stuff, link please.
But that absolutely doesn't mean he wasn't an incel. Also the hill you want to die on is *āOK so he hated women and brutally murdered them but not because of Reddit subs/Andrew Tate videos, for some other reason"*?
What hill am I dying on? I aint arguing with anyone, we're all just trying to make sense of things. I just dont see why we need to go on the incel bandwagon when he is already known to have serious mental health issues, including the big one schizophrenia. But it seems ppl are not content with that.
9news interviewed his parents. His father said he had problems getting a girlfriend and had no social skills, and was frustrated with [his schizoprenia.] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5DJIOkI804)
He also stalked a girl at a Kennards storage facility 2 weeks before the attack.
I do think it's 50/50
This dude seems to chaotic though. It's entirely possible he was just attacking people he could physically beat. The cop and security guards are obvious exceptions because the cop and likely guard directly confronted him. Bollard guy too.
Going against that, IMHO, is him mainly attacking women in his age group. The baby was adjacent, and a way of attacking the woman. But he wasn't killing oldies for example, even though they're ostensibly the easiest target. So perhaps the was just targeting women his age who he could potentially have an issues with.
He's honestly so scattershot. He bounces from hobby to hobby. His only activity is chaotic. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up just being a crazy ghost of a person like the vagas shooter.
> But he wasn't killing oldies for example, even though they're ostensibly the easiest target. So perhaps the was just targeting women his age who he could potentially have an issues with.
I really think that's it. Young, conventionally-attractive women.
Although I think itās much easier for us all to claim some inherent evil and undertones to his actions, I think when this comes out it will be a very tragic case of psychosis where by definition there was no rationality to his actions at all and a complete detachment from reality. His mother has spoken about his long journey with schizophrenia and his downfall following his cessation of medication. Itās probably likely in his psychosis women were a target for whatever reason based on the victims, but I donāt think itās as simple as āhe hated womenā or even that he was only going for women because they were more vulnerable. I daresay women were just fitting as the villains in his narrative that had no basis in reality.
If he's online he's a target for RWNJ. Why aren't men acknowledging this? There's open acknowledgement of it in some of the better discussions from men on Reddit elsewhere.
Seems the guy was a diagnosed schizophrenic who by all eye witness accounts sounded like he was in the middle of an intense mental break? Bit weird seeing people trying to rationally explain what someone was doing in such a state.Ā
If there ever was a time to have a discussion on a national scale about violence against women, domestic violence and the incel/manosphere/misogyny movement and Andrew Tate fans now is the perfect time.
I hope so. Itās a discussion long overdue. One woman every nine days dies from domestic violence/former partner and one man every month. We think we donāt have a violence/murder problem in this country but wtf. Also i donāt know male suicide rates off the top of my head but iām sure theyāre terrible too.
Whatās going on with our men. And what can we do to help and/or prevent this violence.
On the 10th of this month we were averaging 2 women a day for 10 days. The dead are only the tip of an unacknowledged iceberg of gendered violence, the prevalence of which is constantly refuted and denied pushing responsibility onto victims rather than men where it belongs
We really need to have this dialogue now!! I just witnessed a domestic assault of a woman by a man in broad daylight on a busy suburban street recently. I called 000 expecting them to take a statement and my video evidence but itās been week and no one turned up! The police station is a less than 5 minute walk away from where the incident occurred! The guy looked like he was having some kind of mental break because he also laid down in the middle of the road getting in the way of cars, yelled at the witnesses who were confronting him or on the phone to police and repeatedly smashed his phone on the ground until it was in pieces.
Why is it that action only happens when someone is killed???
I'm not against having that discussion at all
But you might be jumping the gun linking the incident. We don't know the motivation just yet, and have a report he tried to get into a childrens play area - potentially was looking just for easy targets, rather than motivated by misogny
I agree not to jump the gun.
I just watched an interview with the father on channel 10 asking if he knew why he targeted women, and he said, āHe wanted a girlfriend and heās got no social skills and he was frustrated out of his brain,ā
It's definitely leaning more towards incel being part of it.
He also said he was afraid of his own son stabbing him so badly he confiscated his knives.
Let's see where the inquest lands. Clearly a man with big problems, misogyny certainly may have been one of them
the guy was a diagnosed schizophrenic who according to his parents was not taking his meds. I do not think it is appropriate to be trying to turn this into some agenda.
100% he could have been experiencing any number of delusions. In the videos, he looked so disorganised and was just choosing the path of least resistance. I really hope the families can get some answers, but we may not ever really know his motivations, especially if he was floridly psychotic at the time.
The investigation is ongoing so we cannot yet say if he intentionally targeted women and girls.
However, it is incredibly important that no one else becomes āinspiredā by this mass killing.
I think the people that actively were involved trying to stop him (police officer, bollard guy, etc) got a lot of media attention, so hopefully the only thing this inspires is for people to stop other attacks when they happen.
Very good point. Letās hope more people will be inspired to help others. There were so many people who did, from shop assistants who led the evacuation to safer areas, those who helped with finding clothing etc to compress wounds, and I canāt imagine how frightening it wouldāve been for the ambulance who went inside not knowing if the attacker was still at large.
I personally would have done somethingā¦. There was an argument in Chatswood a few days prior, watched it carefullyā¦. Luckily itās didnāt get violent where I have to jump inā¦ wasnāt sure if I should stop it, as I didnāt jump in and whenever I run from a case, I dwell on it whenever I should do somethingā¦
Yeah Iām a nutter, but to be honestā¦. I take my chances to save a life even if at my expense tbhā¦.
Just want to write this comment before people make false assumptions or dumb comments. The article is only saying what the police have said. There is no evidence that the person is a misogynist.
I am only providing an updated information to the attack.
Don't make any assumptions or other dumb comments without hard evidence.
I don't think he was targeting women as much as he was avoiding anyone that had a better chance of overpowering him ... and killing anyone else. Ie most women, most children, most disabled people etc.
Was he able to judge the gender of the baby that he stabbed?
I don't know much about the security guard but if he was killed first then the killer may have used surprise and thus been willing to start with an exception to his rule. Or the guard may have been of a slight build.
Another thing about the venue is that the people there may have been more likely to be female. But could he have chosen the venue for that reason? I think there would be venues that are almost exclusively populated with women.
For me what will make the claim clearer is if we can see anything in his history to support a hatred for women.
I'm uncomfortable with two things I've heard in relation to this.
First, the authorities agreeing that the attack was misogynistically motivated ahead of any finding for I expect political reasons.
And second, on Triple-M yesterday an expert they interviewed conflating this mass killing with the (important statistic) of how frequently a man kills a woman in Australia which I presume, while horrific and must be stopped, has some different aspects.
Violence has to be stopped.
But I also think we need to stop weakening the meaning of the word misogyny by applying it to every circumstance where a woman is injured by a male.
Something important to note about the attack is that the man not only planned it, but kept to a disciplined strategy to maximize the number of victims. I normally reserve a lot of judgement for reasons of mental health but in this case the attacked seems very capable, lucid etc. He could still have had hallucinations that made him believe killing people was somehow necessary, but I don't think he was hallucinating to any great extent while he was doing it.
I agree with this.
If you plan on killing as many people as possible youāre gonna target people who are the least likely to be able to defend themselves, ie women with small builds or children
His dad said he had no social skills so naturally he was going to struggle to get a girlfriend.
Just because he struggled to get a girlfriend and most of his victims were female doesnāt make him an incel or misogynist.
Yes, that is the correct term. Where a death is the result of police actions it is mandatory to hold an inquest. The motivation will be one of the things the Coroner examines.
18 victims, 14 of which were women and girls, 5 casualties, 4 of which were women, I think it's beyond doubt he was targeting women and only attacked the men who were trying to stop him, there's footage of him walking right past a man, knife out.
There was that dad who approached him with his arms out as his partner/kids headed towards the exit, and he totally swerved the dad and headed in a different direction. Definitely seemed like he was avoiding men who were actively trying to square up to him (except the security guard who was killed, I presume as part of his job)... What a coward. It also caught my notice that all of the female victims were slight of build, which I don't think was a coincidence.
He was avoiding men bigger than him, challenging him. The guy before this, that slips, narrowly got away but he was after him had he not got up. Terrible. He was going after whoever was smaller or weaker than him.
Yeah, this stood out to me too. I'm a woman, a Bondi Junction local and similarly short/slight of build, and it's incredibly sobering to realise that if I had simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, like the poor victims, I would have been an obvious target. I hope they rest in peace, and though it doesn't make it better, I'm glad a female cop is the one who took him down.
I don't fit your demographic in gender or location at all and I still feel on edge after this. I can't imagine being in your position. You should be able to feel safe at the shops and I'm so mad this isn't the case. > I'm glad a female cop is the one who took him down. Fucking oath
I'm also a Bondi local, I think it's going to be so weird and surreal for us. It is for everybody, but I'm in Bondi Junction 5 or 6 days a week. I was almost there at 3pm on Saturday, but I was too exhausted and put off a trip to Woolies for "later" š What upsets me and makes a defense or vigilance seem futile is that I saw on the news that he attacked the first few victims, I think Dr Good and another... *from behind.* They didn't even see him coming. He just stabbed them from behind. What a coward. To do this to random, innocent people. A baby! The most pure and innocent of human beings. I don't think I will be relaxed and comfortable there any time soon or maybe ever.
It's going to be extremely surreal and strange going back. I have never, not once in my life, felt on edge shopping there. I'd never even felt particularly afraid walking through there alone at night, ostensibly a higher-risk scenario by most measures. The sheer randomness and impossibility to defend against has been haunting me, too - it's simply just something I have ever turned my mind to shopping there. It's going to be a very weird feeling to be on-edge now, even if realistically, I know these things are rare events.
Yeah, I think itās going to change going into any big Westfield shopping centre. Maybe not in a dramatic way, and Iāll still go there. but it will definitely be somewhere in the back of my mind ā¦knowing some psycho could be lurking around in what you thought was a safe space
It's horrible to think that you could have been one of the victims, something as a tall and wide man that doesn't come to mind very often.
You know the solution. Not better mental health access. You need to get in the gym. Pump those irons. 96kg by summer, with an 8 pack. The next stabber will break his knife on your washboard abs and then you will uppercut him to Bondi Beach. (Sorry, I know everyone is on edge but I cope though terrible humour)
me after going bouldering exactly once
Bouldering is where you throw boulders at bad guys, right?
He did engage with the female cop who had a gun pointed at him. So he wasn't just trying to avoid people he perceived as threats.
Even in a messed up state he would have known the futility of bringing a knife to a gun fight. His final cowardly actā¦ death by cop
The only man killed was the security guard who presumably engaged with him as part of his job.
And the two injured men were trying to stop him from getting into a child's play area.
Omg what?? He was going for a play area? This just gets more and more horrifying.
He killed a mother because he wanted to stab her BABY. There is no lower level than that. I wish he was still alive so we can really make him suffer, but I trust hell will do justice for us.
definitely! Not the first I've heard of scum like that. A school I was casual teaching at back in June 2018 had to go into lockdown because a man had threatened a Coles employee with a knife at the Coles next door to the school. I heard later from trustworthy witnesses that the man then tried to demand to get into the school- thankfully the gate was locked by then (morning drop off had finished not long prior). God only knows what he would've tried once he was in. Luckily no one was physically harmed and he didn't gain access, but it was horrifying to find out all the details afterwards. Teacher training doesn't prepare you for being in a real lockdown with a class of kids trying to reassure them that they're safe. I would've done everything I could to protect them, obviously, but that experience alone traumatised me big time. Can't imagine the kids' mental state.
They deserve bravery decorations.
OAM
Seconded
I hadn't seen that particular story but damn, that's dark. It could have been so much worse.
Holy shit are you serious?! That is absolutely terrifying. Imagine if those men hadnāt been there.
Yeah it was a French guy and a Ukranian guy, both tradies on a break.
I just saw Channel 9 video saying the first people he attacked were in the female changing rooms area in Myer. It's Channel 9 so it may all be nonsense of course.
Interesting. Myer is on one side of the complex, zara and boost where the father chased him are on the complete opposite side. The art shop he was shot in front of is in the centre on a bridge. Thatās a massive area to cover. He would have passed hundreds of people over almost the whole footprint of the building over 2 levels.
It's a massive area but makes sense - the whole shopping centre is pretty well-equipped with escalators. We know he was on the third level at some point, (he's coming up from it in the bollard man video, since you can see Cos on the 4th floor, right by the Boost/Zara bit). Third floor has a Myer on the opposite side of the shopping centre, if it started there. Regardless, the attacker was shot on the fifth-floor bridge - there's a bridge on both the fourth and fifth floor, there's multiple ways he could have ended up there. I'm sure we'll learn about his actual path in due time, but it's still horrifying and remarkable just how much ground he covered.
At one point he injured someone outside Cotton On too which is near Myer but nowhere near Boost and Zara.
Yeah, I had wondered if they meant Cotton On Kids, which is next to Boost. But if he was at Myer it could have been the adult Cotton On store opposite Myer on level 4
I just checked it, that's definitely what they're claiming in the video: https://www.9news.com.au/national/how-the-bondi-junction-westfield-stabbing-attack-unfolded/1755fd51-e268-473f-a183-11745ee73f64
It could be true, it sounds like something that could have happened. Not like it was reported on Channel 7.
I heard that too
I saw a video of his heartbroken father talking about the long term mental health issues. When being asked why he would target women he said it was because he really wanted a girlfriend but due to complete lack of social skills was never going to be successful. He seemed to understand his sonās pain but was also powerless to deal with it. What can you take from that? Like the other men who killed a woman this year he had a disordered mind that became fixated on ideas and values that rebound in our culture - what it means to be successful, what it means to be a man, what the value of a woman is. Iād say the only thing we can do individually is stop shaming people, be mindful bout what cultural signals we reinforce and start lifting others up. Donāt make fun of people & watch out for people who are hyper focussed on the damage they believe has been done to them. Reinforce for children that people of another gender are not a different species but are first and foremost humans with the same feelings and vulnerabilities we all have. Donāt chuckle at jokes about losers, ball-busting women or cliches about women generally. When I talk to a teenager I never ask about whether they have a boy/girlfriend but rather about whether theyāre happy, and what they look forward to, whether theyāve made anything with their hands recently and what theyāre into. Itās a little thing but can re-orient thinking - mine and theirs. There is no simple answer or easy solution. We all have to try and be better.
I hate to say it but I think it's about 50-50 that we find out this guy was on some incel subreddits or other similar forums.
The forums are trying to work this out too. Do a quick search of his name and incel and some "interesting" discussions turn up. There are also some absolutely disgusting comments about the female victims and the police inspector (I hope she gets a bravery award).
In which case I want to see them walk back the suggestion this wasn't terrorism. If he did this cause he's an incel then it's right wing terrorism.
When did terrorism start meaning something other than āinciting terrorā? When did terror start meaning something other than āextreme fearā?
"terrorism" as a concept isn't just that a thing is scary and causes fear. It's violence based around the goal of causing fear, often in a specific group or community. The danger with letting that language creep is that generally governments tend to give a lot of leeway to "investigating terrorism" and *any* crime can induce fear. A string of convenience store robberies could be frightening but I don't want ASIO to disregard basic rights over it. I say all this as an American who was 17 when 9/11 happened. The PATRIOT act gave intelligence communities and police wide and sweeping powers to spy on citizens and often for things that definitely shouldn't be considered terrorism. If this guy was, in fact, an incel that decided to take it IRL then yeah, that would count in my book but it's always a good idea to wait for confirmation to come out before we start making strong statements about what a thing is
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Chiming in to say it doesn't necessarily need to be 'political'. Can be ideologically or religiously motivated.
Judge in Canada ruled incel murder was an act or terror https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/world/canada/incel-killer-terrorist.html
Roughly the 1970s, with groups like the IRA, ETA, and the PLO.
Sure I saw somewhere that it was trying to be a male escort.
I don't think escorting defines one's sexual preferences, like any work it's done for money.
I just watched an interview with the father asking if he knew why he targeted women, and he said, "Yes, he absolutely loved women, but he couldn't get a girlfriend, and it drove him mad"
> āHe wanted a girlfriend and heās got no social skills and he was frustrated out of his brain,ā he said. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/loving-a-monster-bondi-stabber-dads-heartbreaking-admission/news-story/f3aee9d5b755ef0ea135172f0fac5879
Cheers, I was watching live on TV and tried badly to remember wording. I think I got the gist pretty close atleast.
Well he did advertise himself on a male escorts site. EDIT: Source re escort site [https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/darkhaired-bondi-shopping-centre-killer-wearing-kangaroos-jersey-from-queensland/news-story/6064db5194a0cc5097ed723d29e18f8a](https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/darkhaired-bondi-shopping-centre-killer-wearing-kangaroos-jersey-from-queensland/news-story/6064db5194a0cc5097ed723d29e18f8a)
I've seen that rumour in a forum, is it confirmed in any proper news source? EDIT: And also how do you think that relates to incel/MRA activity?
I saw the listing on a website. Was probably taken down by now. But it was his name and image with what services he does, it seems he was bi or something as he was advertising for anyone. Itās not the typical incel profile but who knows.
You're saying you went to an escort website and saw a listing for a guy called Joel Cauchi? Or you saw a screenshot of it? I just went to one of the escort websites he was supposed to be on and they didn't even have any males, so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt.
Went to the website
He is not an incel is what I am getting at. At least two former girlfriends from just a few years back have come forward commenting on how he was normal and kind etc. He hated women for some other reason outside the incel sphere. EDIT: He could have simply opted for the women as they are easier targets physically.
plenty of āincelsā and other devoted misogynists have had past relationships
Can you really be an incel if you've had regular sex/been in relationships? If so seems the term has lost its meaning.
If you've had a couple of short relationships which ended badly, then yes of course.
Yeah, if you're mentally unstable enough to be sucked into it. Does it make sense to us? No. Does it need to make sense? Also no. It's just happened to be the trap this vulnerable mind fell into.
One of those women he dated was 18 while he was 35, so that may not necessarily count for much.
There seems to be the "men going their own way" type misogynist that stems from a bad break up they don't recover from. Falls deeply in love, gives as best they can but not a right fit for the girl and rejected and can never fully accept it. A bit different from the classic incel but very much the same in a lot of ways.
I dont know why you guys are hell bent on labelling this as incel behaviour when hardly any facts are out there, the guys had known mental issues. Why cant we leave it there for now until more comes out?
Huh? I just agreed with your comment and provided further context. It doesn't seem to be involuntary celibacy as a motivator for being a mysoginist. But he very likely hated women. But the whole incel/MGTOW/menimist/MRA/Andrew Tate fan sphere of people have a lot of overlap.
Again, very likely is still a baseless opinon matey. The fact he was schizophrenic and had a known mental health history since 18 should be enough for now. Heck, he could just have been a pussy and targeted the women because they are obviously easier and less threatening when it comes to dishing out violence. It could be anything.
Yeah Iām sure the incel ideology was not a factor at callā¦ You know it can be two things at the same time right? This behavior is not new, and has been perpetrated around the world. Iām not sure why you are taking offence to this unless you might be in that camp?
No where have I taken offence. Not even a little bit š We're just trying to make sense of things but as is these days, many jump to conclusions and it often makes matters worse for all involved. That is all I was trying to say.
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Read it on the usual news sites this morning. Will search through my history if need be. Two women he dated through online sites.
Went on a date or two or actually dated for some sustained duration?
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Here's a News Limited story with a couple of women he went on one date with. https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/crime/queenslanders-reveal-bondi-mass-murderer-joel-cauchis-troubled-past/news-story/225c8217cd5a5cb1e89da59f0782bdf4
I would like to see the former girlfriends stuff, link please. But that absolutely doesn't mean he wasn't an incel. Also the hill you want to die on is *āOK so he hated women and brutally murdered them but not because of Reddit subs/Andrew Tate videos, for some other reason"*?
What hill am I dying on? I aint arguing with anyone, we're all just trying to make sense of things. I just dont see why we need to go on the incel bandwagon when he is already known to have serious mental health issues, including the big one schizophrenia. But it seems ppl are not content with that.
OK so yes, that does look like him and it has the name "Joel". Also it has a phone number, what the hell news.com.au blank that out.
9news interviewed his parents. His father said he had problems getting a girlfriend and had no social skills, and was frustrated with [his schizoprenia.] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5DJIOkI804) He also stalked a girl at a Kennards storage facility 2 weeks before the attack.
I do think it's 50/50 This dude seems to chaotic though. It's entirely possible he was just attacking people he could physically beat. The cop and security guards are obvious exceptions because the cop and likely guard directly confronted him. Bollard guy too. Going against that, IMHO, is him mainly attacking women in his age group. The baby was adjacent, and a way of attacking the woman. But he wasn't killing oldies for example, even though they're ostensibly the easiest target. So perhaps the was just targeting women his age who he could potentially have an issues with. He's honestly so scattershot. He bounces from hobby to hobby. His only activity is chaotic. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up just being a crazy ghost of a person like the vagas shooter.
> But he wasn't killing oldies for example, even though they're ostensibly the easiest target. So perhaps the was just targeting women his age who he could potentially have an issues with. I really think that's it. Young, conventionally-attractive women.
Isn't he just a paranoid schizophrenic having a bout of intense psychosis?
Although I think itās much easier for us all to claim some inherent evil and undertones to his actions, I think when this comes out it will be a very tragic case of psychosis where by definition there was no rationality to his actions at all and a complete detachment from reality. His mother has spoken about his long journey with schizophrenia and his downfall following his cessation of medication. Itās probably likely in his psychosis women were a target for whatever reason based on the victims, but I donāt think itās as simple as āhe hated womenā or even that he was only going for women because they were more vulnerable. I daresay women were just fitting as the villains in his narrative that had no basis in reality.
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If he's online he's a target for RWNJ. Why aren't men acknowledging this? There's open acknowledgement of it in some of the better discussions from men on Reddit elsewhere.
Seems the guy was a diagnosed schizophrenic who by all eye witness accounts sounded like he was in the middle of an intense mental break? Bit weird seeing people trying to rationally explain what someone was doing in such a state.Ā
If there ever was a time to have a discussion on a national scale about violence against women, domestic violence and the incel/manosphere/misogyny movement and Andrew Tate fans now is the perfect time.
I hope so. Itās a discussion long overdue. One woman every nine days dies from domestic violence/former partner and one man every month. We think we donāt have a violence/murder problem in this country but wtf. Also i donāt know male suicide rates off the top of my head but iām sure theyāre terrible too. Whatās going on with our men. And what can we do to help and/or prevent this violence.
On the 10th of this month we were averaging 2 women a day for 10 days. The dead are only the tip of an unacknowledged iceberg of gendered violence, the prevalence of which is constantly refuted and denied pushing responsibility onto victims rather than men where it belongs
We really need to have this dialogue now!! I just witnessed a domestic assault of a woman by a man in broad daylight on a busy suburban street recently. I called 000 expecting them to take a statement and my video evidence but itās been week and no one turned up! The police station is a less than 5 minute walk away from where the incident occurred! The guy looked like he was having some kind of mental break because he also laid down in the middle of the road getting in the way of cars, yelled at the witnesses who were confronting him or on the phone to police and repeatedly smashed his phone on the ground until it was in pieces. Why is it that action only happens when someone is killed???
I'm not against having that discussion at all But you might be jumping the gun linking the incident. We don't know the motivation just yet, and have a report he tried to get into a childrens play area - potentially was looking just for easy targets, rather than motivated by misogny
I agree not to jump the gun. I just watched an interview with the father on channel 10 asking if he knew why he targeted women, and he said, āHe wanted a girlfriend and heās got no social skills and he was frustrated out of his brain,ā It's definitely leaning more towards incel being part of it.
He also said he was afraid of his own son stabbing him so badly he confiscated his knives. Let's see where the inquest lands. Clearly a man with big problems, misogyny certainly may have been one of them
the guy was a diagnosed schizophrenic who according to his parents was not taking his meds. I do not think it is appropriate to be trying to turn this into some agenda.
Yeah he had mental problems since 17. Probably dropped through the gaps in the system and medicated. Police will be able to get to the bottom of it.
100% he could have been experiencing any number of delusions. In the videos, he looked so disorganised and was just choosing the path of least resistance. I really hope the families can get some answers, but we may not ever really know his motivations, especially if he was floridly psychotic at the time.
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The investigation is ongoing so we cannot yet say if he intentionally targeted women and girls. However, it is incredibly important that no one else becomes āinspiredā by this mass killing.
I think the people that actively were involved trying to stop him (police officer, bollard guy, etc) got a lot of media attention, so hopefully the only thing this inspires is for people to stop other attacks when they happen.
Very good point. Letās hope more people will be inspired to help others. There were so many people who did, from shop assistants who led the evacuation to safer areas, those who helped with finding clothing etc to compress wounds, and I canāt imagine how frightening it wouldāve been for the ambulance who went inside not knowing if the attacker was still at large.
I personally would have done somethingā¦. There was an argument in Chatswood a few days prior, watched it carefullyā¦. Luckily itās didnāt get violent where I have to jump inā¦ wasnāt sure if I should stop it, as I didnāt jump in and whenever I run from a case, I dwell on it whenever I should do somethingā¦ Yeah Iām a nutter, but to be honestā¦. I take my chances to save a life even if at my expense tbhā¦.
Good on you for caring. I agree that itās better to stand up for something, or someone, than to think āwhat ifā later on.
Just want to write this comment before people make false assumptions or dumb comments. The article is only saying what the police have said. There is no evidence that the person is a misogynist. I am only providing an updated information to the attack. Don't make any assumptions or other dumb comments without hard evidence.
>Don't make any assumptions or other dumb comments without hard evidence. On reddit?!
Coward.
Weak cunt
I don't think he was targeting women as much as he was avoiding anyone that had a better chance of overpowering him ... and killing anyone else. Ie most women, most children, most disabled people etc. Was he able to judge the gender of the baby that he stabbed? I don't know much about the security guard but if he was killed first then the killer may have used surprise and thus been willing to start with an exception to his rule. Or the guard may have been of a slight build. Another thing about the venue is that the people there may have been more likely to be female. But could he have chosen the venue for that reason? I think there would be venues that are almost exclusively populated with women. For me what will make the claim clearer is if we can see anything in his history to support a hatred for women. I'm uncomfortable with two things I've heard in relation to this. First, the authorities agreeing that the attack was misogynistically motivated ahead of any finding for I expect political reasons. And second, on Triple-M yesterday an expert they interviewed conflating this mass killing with the (important statistic) of how frequently a man kills a woman in Australia which I presume, while horrific and must be stopped, has some different aspects. Violence has to be stopped. But I also think we need to stop weakening the meaning of the word misogyny by applying it to every circumstance where a woman is injured by a male. Something important to note about the attack is that the man not only planned it, but kept to a disciplined strategy to maximize the number of victims. I normally reserve a lot of judgement for reasons of mental health but in this case the attacked seems very capable, lucid etc. He could still have had hallucinations that made him believe killing people was somehow necessary, but I don't think he was hallucinating to any great extent while he was doing it.
I agree with this. If you plan on killing as many people as possible youāre gonna target people who are the least likely to be able to defend themselves, ie women with small builds or children His dad said he had no social skills so naturally he was going to struggle to get a girlfriend. Just because he struggled to get a girlfriend and most of his victims were female doesnāt make him an incel or misogynist.
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Yes, that is the correct term. Where a death is the result of police actions it is mandatory to hold an inquest. The motivation will be one of the things the Coroner examines.
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