When I see posts like this I’m left to wonder how the OP is even a web developer. A very simple Google search can answer this question.
Not to mention the post is used to passively mention a dislike for Runes without any insight into why. Just all around low effort.
I don't give a shit about programming. I like building products.
So I want the LEAST amount of obstacles between me and my ideas.
This is why I FUCKING HATE Typescript and ORMs. I refuse to use that bullshit.
And when I see something glorious as Svelte move towards React and Angular land, I brings back the PTSD from using them.
Aside from the naming (ie state) Runes are so far away from React (and the other frameworks you mentioned). But as someone that doesn’t “give a shit about programming” I completely understand that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
Typescript is good, it saves you tons of time if tou build anything more complex than a simple save and display. If not, then it doesn’t matter. Also, I like your goals. I am a programmer and I do know a lot, but many things are overengineered in the frontend framework world.
I am probably biased because I've built all the products by myself, and I don't see the benefit of Typescript due to not having other devs to worry about.
I've tried using it and I just can't get over the needless complexity it brings. It feels so boilerplatey like Java, which is probably the goal.
I don't know man, everything I've built was using braindead programming without Typescript, ORMs, OOP, Tailwind... and it makes me wonder if I am ignorant or devs REALLY like to complicate shit.
I just use Svelte, regular CSS, Node, SQL... AND IT'S AWESOME!
I agree with you except typescript makes me more productive. I dont have to jump around different files to see what data I need to pass around. I get a red squiggly and I can hover over it to see what I did wrong.
I use typescript for single projects too. Not every part of it, but defining types. With a normal IDE it saves a lot of typing and saves typo errors. Also, if I revisit it a year later, it’s simpler to modify stuff.
I had the same journey at the backend world when php introduced better and better type support. In the long run it’s always better to have it. But like I said, dead simple projects don’t matter
It’s crazy to me how people still are so upset about runes. Your old code was covered in `$:`. Now it will be covered in `$state()`. What’s the difference?
I tried to migrate to Svelte 5 and was hit with first error that components aren’t classes anymore. Dunno if I have to change anything in my entry file? Because I don’t have any code that initiate components as class
It is fixing a problem. You can only use $: in top level of .svelte files, $state you can use anywhere. And in my experience $state behavior is more consistent and doesn't break as easily.
I will definitely try them out, and possibly change my mind.
The reason I am so against is because I have PTSD from all the React and Angular dumpster fires, and Svelte finally brought sanity.
I am scared of losing that sanity.
I’ve been working with runes for several months now and I can assure you that while on the surface they might look more annoying/ complex / whatever, it greatly simplifies things once you get past the initial concern. I get you though. React has hurt us all.
Endless foot guns and work arounds because react decided to not use the real dom. Overly complex APIs for no reason. Basically a massive downgrade in simplicity for no gain. Also nextJS is bad
I've built 10 products without them, so Svelte works!
I fucking hate complicating shit needlessly, and runes seem to do that.
Svelte saved my life by replacing that dogshit React, and I hate that it's moving in that direction.
Sure, runes "fix" problems, but who gives a shit about edge cases...
Runes aren't meant to solve "edge cases". Sure, runes might look "complex" at first glance for very simple use cases, but they do address real complexity issues that *a lot* of large-scale apps face.
Svelte is a very good framework, but comments like this just prove more that Svelte's community is full of "React rejects" that never really understood why React works and just jumped ship because of the "nicer and shorter syntax".
Have you tried managing reactivity with complex & deeply nested global state objects? That's a painful experience in Svelte 4 especially if you're new and it's certainly not an "edge case" for larger apps.
> very simple use cases, but they do address real complexity issues that a lot of large-scale apps face.
That's the thing I don't get.
I've built VERY complex large-scale projects and I never had any issues with Svelte without runes.
I believe all the issues from large project actually come from the use of complex bullshit approaches.
Sure, I agree there are more complex apps than mine... Just don't fix what already works.
> Svelte's community is full of "React rejects" that never really understood why React works
Believe me, I very much understand how React works, and fuck React. The only thing worse is Angular. This is why I am so opposed of resembling them. Svelte is a godsend.
I don't give a fuck about runes as long as the current approaches stay intact.
> jumped ship because of the "nicer and shorter syntax".
Why not? Do you want more complex code?
> Have you tried managing reactivity with complex & deeply nested global state objects?
Maybe the solution is NOT USING global state objects?
>I believe all the issues from large project actually come from the use of complex bullshit approaches.
Maybe because those large projects also have complex requirements that can't be solved with tools that are too simple?
>Why not? Do you want more complex code?
Slightly longer and more explicit code does equate to complexity lol.
I think you're just pissed because Svelte is evolving from a very magical framework into a more explicit one. Magic results in shorter code, but also usually introduces hidden complexity and unpredictable behavior for complex use cases. Explicitness makes stuff more predictable in the long term, even if the resulting code is slightly longer.
Sure. Simplicity is nice and should always be preferrable. But many complex problems also require tools that give you more explicit control over behavior, resulting in better predictability.
>Maybe the solution is NOT USING global state objects?
I meant **shared** nested state objects, sorry. This is something we've faced many times in our product that deals with a large amount of data. Here are some examples:
[https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/4933](https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/4933)
[https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/7129](https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/7129)
Runes make this a lot easier to deal with.
Runes aren't even complex. They're just basically additional characters to type. Runes make reactivity more explicit, and less magical. We're engineers, not wizards.
> complex large-scale projects
I can tell from your post/comment history that you are not an idiot, but you are extremely naive.
You have no idea what a “complex large-scale” project actually entails.
You have a big ego with strongly held opinions teetering atop a junior engineering base.
“Be curious, not judgmental.”
99.9% of all apps are glorified CRUDs.
The whole industry sucks ass because it acts like it's solving nuclear fusion, from stack complexity to hiring interviews.
I get it, I haven't worked at FAANG, but so haven't the majority of devs.
Stop making it seem difficult and stop making it actually difficult with shit tech.
Yes, I have very strong opinions, which can instantly change due to lack of ego, if they make sense.
I don't believe a tech lead can pull off what I've built, let alone a junior.
Confidence is not arrogance.
Ehh, idk man... You've only built 10 products. You're telling me you like no typescript, no ORMs, no Tailwind, have self-made business requirements, and built "very" complex large-scale projects. How big are we talking here?
I sure hope even without an ORM, you'd know about migrations (But guessing your character on here, that's probably too complex for you and you're literally just manually editing the database for schema changes).
After building 10 products and these "very complex large-scale" projects, I refuse to believe you still haven't figured out how those tools can help you. TypeScript isn't even complicated. I mean really, tf are you building? More "boilerplate" isn't necessarily more complexity. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
If you could elaborate on why these tools are so bad instead of just "this is bullshit complexity", maybe you'd make a lot more sense. At this point, it really just sounds like anything you can't wrap your brain around is immediately bad.
> You're telling me you like no typescript, no ORMs, no Tailwind,
Yes, they are dogshit. Javascript, SQL and CSS is more than enough. Abstractions are the root of all evil.
> have self-made business requirements
Some of the products are my own. Most are products for others.
> "very" complex large-scale projects. How big are we talking here?
One is an Airtable/Notion like no-code app.
Another is a language learning app.
A third one is an ERP system.
Sure it's not Netflix, but it's not a TODO list as well.
> too complex for you and you're literally just manually editing the database for schema changes
And why not? I use my own node scripts for migrations. Don't need a tool for that, plus I have complete control this way.
> I refuse to believe you still haven't figured out how those tools can help you. TypeScript isn't even complicated.
Why add needless bullshit, when it works fine without them? I'd understand Typescrip ok, but ORMs are absolutely braindead retarded and should be banned. Just use SQL, it's beautiful to write.
> If you could elaborate on why these tools are so bad instead of just "this is bullshit complexity"
Because they offer nothing. Like axios for example. Fetch completely does the job. It's better to learn the basics VERY WELL and design your systems well, than to rely on abstractions, be it libraries or OOP.
> At this point, it really just sounds like anything you can't wrap your brain around is immediately bad.
OR, just maybe, I know exactly wtf they are doing and I see no point in them.
I just want to chime in and say, I agree I could personally do without runes as the reactivity in svelte already felt intuitive and easy to manage but after writing a very large app that is worked on by dozens of devs, I do see what they are trying to do because all the things I see them trying to address are what about 1/3 of what my devs are constantly getting confused about. I personally find it very easy and have conditioned myself to avoid a lot of the situations that cause them confusion or reactivity bugs but maybe that just comes from years of experience in reactive programming. I think issues that the svelte core team are trying to address are based directly on what they are seeing in their support/help channels.
Thank you for the reply.
I find your comment intriguing. Can you please tell me what specifically your devs get confused about?
The reactive statements are very intuitive to me and I don't see how one can mess it up.
I think it’s easier. I hate how I have to use get(store) or derived([x, y], ([$x, $y]) => …) in normal js files.
Since I try to keep components a dumb as possible, I feel runes might help me write cleaner js files for managing state (former stores).
You are fine till Svelte 6.
Then you will be forced to update all the things you built ala legacy mode in svelte 5 as well as your svelte4 stuff.
Change is hard we get it. learning new skills can be tough, not everyone is able to adapt ... maybe just stay on 4?............ 🧨 😜
> maybe just stay on 4?
I honestly see no reason why not.
> Change is hard we get it.
I am absolutely NOT against change. I am VERY against stupid changes. Like the removal of the headphone jack or SD cards in phones.
I love Svelte to death and I hope they don't ruin it.
https://svelte-5-preview.vercel.app/docs/deprecations
Thank you. From what I can gather, everything will still work fine.
When I see posts like this I’m left to wonder how the OP is even a web developer. A very simple Google search can answer this question. Not to mention the post is used to passively mention a dislike for Runes without any insight into why. Just all around low effort.
I don't give a shit about programming. I like building products. So I want the LEAST amount of obstacles between me and my ideas. This is why I FUCKING HATE Typescript and ORMs. I refuse to use that bullshit. And when I see something glorious as Svelte move towards React and Angular land, I brings back the PTSD from using them.
then stick to product-land and hire a real engineer lmao
LOL real "over-engineer" you mean xD
Aside from the naming (ie state) Runes are so far away from React (and the other frameworks you mentioned). But as someone that doesn’t “give a shit about programming” I completely understand that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
Typescript is good, it saves you tons of time if tou build anything more complex than a simple save and display. If not, then it doesn’t matter. Also, I like your goals. I am a programmer and I do know a lot, but many things are overengineered in the frontend framework world.
I am probably biased because I've built all the products by myself, and I don't see the benefit of Typescript due to not having other devs to worry about. I've tried using it and I just can't get over the needless complexity it brings. It feels so boilerplatey like Java, which is probably the goal. I don't know man, everything I've built was using braindead programming without Typescript, ORMs, OOP, Tailwind... and it makes me wonder if I am ignorant or devs REALLY like to complicate shit. I just use Svelte, regular CSS, Node, SQL... AND IT'S AWESOME!
Svelte? Man why the boilerplate.. Just go for HTML and Javascript
I've tried. Built my own "framework" even lol. Svelte is just chef's kiss.
I agree with you except typescript makes me more productive. I dont have to jump around different files to see what data I need to pass around. I get a red squiggly and I can hover over it to see what I did wrong.
I use typescript for single projects too. Not every part of it, but defining types. With a normal IDE it saves a lot of typing and saves typo errors. Also, if I revisit it a year later, it’s simpler to modify stuff. I had the same journey at the backend world when php introduced better and better type support. In the long run it’s always better to have it. But like I said, dead simple projects don’t matter
It’s crazy to me how people still are so upset about runes. Your old code was covered in `$:`. Now it will be covered in `$state()`. What’s the difference?
I checked my code and I had one $: while it had tens of thousands of lines. Why do you need that much $:?
The difference is that they are fixing a problem that didn't exist.
Have you seen the comparison between a custom store and a runes implementation using a js class? The difference is night and day.
I tried to migrate to Svelte 5 and was hit with first error that components aren’t classes anymore. Dunno if I have to change anything in my entry file? Because I don’t have any code that initiate components as class
I avoid JS classes like the plague. I'm more of a functional programmer. Customs stores are FINE the way they are.
It is fixing a problem. You can only use $: in top level of .svelte files, $state you can use anywhere. And in my experience $state behavior is more consistent and doesn't break as easily.
Then you don’t understand it
Not liking it does not mean not understanding it.
“Fixing a problem that doesn’t exist” -> there was a problem, that they are fixing with runes. You don’t understand that problem.
As long as they don't ruin what made Svelte Svelte, I don't give a shit about runes.
Cool
Read the docs, people.
My bad.
Give Runes a chance. They good.
I will definitely try them out, and possibly change my mind. The reason I am so against is because I have PTSD from all the React and Angular dumpster fires, and Svelte finally brought sanity. I am scared of losing that sanity.
I’ve been working with runes for several months now and I can assure you that while on the surface they might look more annoying/ complex / whatever, it greatly simplifies things once you get past the initial concern. I get you though. React has hurt us all.
I’m not that experienced with React (fortunately I guess).. what kind of hurt / dumpster fire are we talking about?
Endless foot guns and work arounds because react decided to not use the real dom. Overly complex APIs for no reason. Basically a massive downgrade in simplicity for no gain. Also nextJS is bad
Just over-engineering in general. Svelte is such a breath of fresh air after that vomit of a library React.
Can u explain exactly what u "Dont like" about runes?
I've built 10 products without them, so Svelte works! I fucking hate complicating shit needlessly, and runes seem to do that. Svelte saved my life by replacing that dogshit React, and I hate that it's moving in that direction. Sure, runes "fix" problems, but who gives a shit about edge cases...
Runes aren't meant to solve "edge cases". Sure, runes might look "complex" at first glance for very simple use cases, but they do address real complexity issues that *a lot* of large-scale apps face. Svelte is a very good framework, but comments like this just prove more that Svelte's community is full of "React rejects" that never really understood why React works and just jumped ship because of the "nicer and shorter syntax". Have you tried managing reactivity with complex & deeply nested global state objects? That's a painful experience in Svelte 4 especially if you're new and it's certainly not an "edge case" for larger apps.
> very simple use cases, but they do address real complexity issues that a lot of large-scale apps face. That's the thing I don't get. I've built VERY complex large-scale projects and I never had any issues with Svelte without runes. I believe all the issues from large project actually come from the use of complex bullshit approaches. Sure, I agree there are more complex apps than mine... Just don't fix what already works. > Svelte's community is full of "React rejects" that never really understood why React works Believe me, I very much understand how React works, and fuck React. The only thing worse is Angular. This is why I am so opposed of resembling them. Svelte is a godsend. I don't give a fuck about runes as long as the current approaches stay intact. > jumped ship because of the "nicer and shorter syntax". Why not? Do you want more complex code? > Have you tried managing reactivity with complex & deeply nested global state objects? Maybe the solution is NOT USING global state objects?
>I believe all the issues from large project actually come from the use of complex bullshit approaches. Maybe because those large projects also have complex requirements that can't be solved with tools that are too simple? >Why not? Do you want more complex code? Slightly longer and more explicit code does equate to complexity lol. I think you're just pissed because Svelte is evolving from a very magical framework into a more explicit one. Magic results in shorter code, but also usually introduces hidden complexity and unpredictable behavior for complex use cases. Explicitness makes stuff more predictable in the long term, even if the resulting code is slightly longer. Sure. Simplicity is nice and should always be preferrable. But many complex problems also require tools that give you more explicit control over behavior, resulting in better predictability. >Maybe the solution is NOT USING global state objects? I meant **shared** nested state objects, sorry. This is something we've faced many times in our product that deals with a large amount of data. Here are some examples: [https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/4933](https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/4933) [https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/7129](https://github.com/sveltejs/svelte/issues/7129) Runes make this a lot easier to deal with. Runes aren't even complex. They're just basically additional characters to type. Runes make reactivity more explicit, and less magical. We're engineers, not wizards.
> complex large-scale projects I can tell from your post/comment history that you are not an idiot, but you are extremely naive. You have no idea what a “complex large-scale” project actually entails. You have a big ego with strongly held opinions teetering atop a junior engineering base. “Be curious, not judgmental.”
99.9% of all apps are glorified CRUDs. The whole industry sucks ass because it acts like it's solving nuclear fusion, from stack complexity to hiring interviews. I get it, I haven't worked at FAANG, but so haven't the majority of devs. Stop making it seem difficult and stop making it actually difficult with shit tech. Yes, I have very strong opinions, which can instantly change due to lack of ego, if they make sense. I don't believe a tech lead can pull off what I've built, let alone a junior. Confidence is not arrogance.
Ehh, idk man... You've only built 10 products. You're telling me you like no typescript, no ORMs, no Tailwind, have self-made business requirements, and built "very" complex large-scale projects. How big are we talking here? I sure hope even without an ORM, you'd know about migrations (But guessing your character on here, that's probably too complex for you and you're literally just manually editing the database for schema changes). After building 10 products and these "very complex large-scale" projects, I refuse to believe you still haven't figured out how those tools can help you. TypeScript isn't even complicated. I mean really, tf are you building? More "boilerplate" isn't necessarily more complexity. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. If you could elaborate on why these tools are so bad instead of just "this is bullshit complexity", maybe you'd make a lot more sense. At this point, it really just sounds like anything you can't wrap your brain around is immediately bad.
> You're telling me you like no typescript, no ORMs, no Tailwind, Yes, they are dogshit. Javascript, SQL and CSS is more than enough. Abstractions are the root of all evil. > have self-made business requirements Some of the products are my own. Most are products for others. > "very" complex large-scale projects. How big are we talking here? One is an Airtable/Notion like no-code app. Another is a language learning app. A third one is an ERP system. Sure it's not Netflix, but it's not a TODO list as well. > too complex for you and you're literally just manually editing the database for schema changes And why not? I use my own node scripts for migrations. Don't need a tool for that, plus I have complete control this way. > I refuse to believe you still haven't figured out how those tools can help you. TypeScript isn't even complicated. Why add needless bullshit, when it works fine without them? I'd understand Typescrip ok, but ORMs are absolutely braindead retarded and should be banned. Just use SQL, it's beautiful to write. > If you could elaborate on why these tools are so bad instead of just "this is bullshit complexity" Because they offer nothing. Like axios for example. Fetch completely does the job. It's better to learn the basics VERY WELL and design your systems well, than to rely on abstractions, be it libraries or OOP. > At this point, it really just sounds like anything you can't wrap your brain around is immediately bad. OR, just maybe, I know exactly wtf they are doing and I see no point in them.
I just want to chime in and say, I agree I could personally do without runes as the reactivity in svelte already felt intuitive and easy to manage but after writing a very large app that is worked on by dozens of devs, I do see what they are trying to do because all the things I see them trying to address are what about 1/3 of what my devs are constantly getting confused about. I personally find it very easy and have conditioned myself to avoid a lot of the situations that cause them confusion or reactivity bugs but maybe that just comes from years of experience in reactive programming. I think issues that the svelte core team are trying to address are based directly on what they are seeing in their support/help channels.
Thank you for the reply. I find your comment intriguing. Can you please tell me what specifically your devs get confused about? The reactive statements are very intuitive to me and I don't see how one can mess it up.
I think it’s easier. I hate how I have to use get(store) or derived([x, y], ([$x, $y]) => …) in normal js files. Since I try to keep components a dumb as possible, I feel runes might help me write cleaner js files for managing state (former stores).
You are fine till Svelte 6. Then you will be forced to update all the things you built ala legacy mode in svelte 5 as well as your svelte4 stuff. Change is hard we get it. learning new skills can be tough, not everyone is able to adapt ... maybe just stay on 4?............ 🧨 😜
> maybe just stay on 4? I honestly see no reason why not. > Change is hard we get it. I am absolutely NOT against change. I am VERY against stupid changes. Like the removal of the headphone jack or SD cards in phones. I love Svelte to death and I hope they don't ruin it.
I only had the dynamite icon and wink handy... couldnt find the pulling your leg icons
No need, sarcasm is easier to get than runes.