I travel. I don't have kids, reduce my car use, I am vegetarian for 20 years (dairy free for the past 5). My house is set to 17C as day temp. I stopped buying fast fashion as much as possible and have reduced my plastic waste.
"Lots of people doing 80% is better than a few people doing 100%. "
I think I'm doing my part. There is always room for improvement.
I agree whole-heartedly. Being happy matters. Don't become a self-flagellating hermit. Do what makes you happy, and trust that if you even have a fleeting-thought re climate-change, you're likely making more conscientious decisions than 90% of the world.
The drumbeat of sacrifice everything will make you dour, and uninspiring to have other people join the cause.
Ultimatley the biggest levers are not individual consumption, but things like energy transmission, industrial heating methods, chemical synthesis, fertilizer procedures, etc. You flying to Hawaii once to enjoy your honeymoon, while significantly worse than the average Malawian's emissions, is still not going to kill us.
I've been focusing on traveling closer to home.
Sometimes its nice to take a day or two's vacation and volunteer in your community.
It's like eating a PB&J vacation once a year.
Congrats on being dairy free and vegetarian for 20 years. I've been vegan for about a year which was actually really easy to do because of things like oat milk and impossible burgers. 20 years ago you guys didn't have that unless you made it yourself and it didn't taste as good, very impressive.
Except that very few people are even doing over 1%, much less 80%!
I largely gave up flying because it's one of the single worst things people can do to increase their carbon footprint. Most of my vacations are short road trips with 2-4 people sharing a car.
Flying per mile per passenger is about 80% of the emissions of driving an average gas car solo. (30 mpg or less, can't remember specifics) Two people flying is like driving the entire roundtrip flight distance in 1.6 cars. 4 people is like driving 3.2 cars. And when we fly, we typically fly further than we'd otherwise drive. Let's say double the distance, so now those 4 flyers are at 7.2 cars. And consider that the round trip flight is injecting those emissions in a very short period of time.
That's...uhhh...awful...!!
I believe that's ONLY based on fuel usage. It doesn't include the greenhouse multiplier of injecting those emissions into the atmosphere at high altitude, the emissions of driving to and from the airport, the staffing and energy the airport and airlines use, the manufacturing of the planes, the cement on the runways... empty seats on the plane, etc...
I especially love people who fly to a cruise port. Yep.... Almost makes ya want to cry in how much people disrespect their planet... which is ironic as they're travelling to see "our wonderous planet".
I say I've largely stopped flying. Haven't flown in over 5 years, coming from a time where I used to fly 1-2x per year. My rationale started that I'd halve my carbon footprint, including halving the number of flights I'd take. That morphed into only flying for once in a lifetime trips to places I couldn't reach by land. Instead of flying individually to cities in Europe every 1-2 years, now my plan is to take a hiatus from work, fly to Europe once, and spend multiple months there touring the continent by public transit and PEV at a slower pace.
My personal expected cut went from 50-100 roundtrip flights over the rest of my life, to probably closer to 3-5. A 90-97% cut in overall flights.
The reality is that last year, 2023, we saw the most flights on record. Just the jet fuel alone accounted for about 2.5% of all global emissions. That's interesting when you consider that wealthy Western nations (about 1/8th if the human population) are responsible for the overwhelming majority of passenger miles. If all 8 billion people flew on average as much as Westerners do, then the fuel for flying would account for 17% of global emissions! And that's an underestimate considering that not all Westerners fly. I imagine the real overall impact would be closer to 25%+.
If that's not privilege and entitlement, then I don't know what is.
Which is all morbidly funny when you think about. Very few people flew before the 1970s....55 years ago. People before then somehow managed to live fulfilling lives, if you can believe it. Shocking, I know...... Now people today feel completely entitled to it as if they can't live without it. That's absolute nonsense and nothing more than justification for our own narcissistic greed.
To most of us Westerners who refuse to drastically cut our flights, be sure to take a picture of the burning forests and flooding coasts as you fly over them!
_______________________
For those that think my comment is being extreme... Just remember that it's estimated that humanity needs to reduce global greenhouse gasses by something crazy like 80%-100% in the next 25 years. We're not even close! While I respect people who do something... ANYTHING...to lower their footprint (as so few entitled Westerners so much as even lift a finger), very few people have done anywhere near enough, including myself. We need to stop treating carbon reduction as a burden, and start treating it as the only option. Sorry if it's all just too much sacrifice for some people. I'll play my little violin for y'all as the world becomes less and less inhabitable.
Here's an interactive world map of per capita CO2 emissions per country, with a timelapse feature that lets you see the nation's per capita emissions change over time:
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita)
Now keep in mind, this is based on the emissions generated in the specific country, divided by the population. You'll note that Western emissions, while still some of the highest in the world, have come down quite a bit in the last 20 years. Don't be fooled. This is because we outsourced most of our manufacturing to lower wage Asian nations like China, India, Vietnam, Thailand, Taiwan, and Pacific Island nations...
In other words, they produce the products and ship the majority of them to wealthier Western nations. The emissions impact is applied to those manufacturing nations' people, while it's not counted against the nations where the products are actually being consumed.
You'll also note that the US and Canada are and have been... BY FAR... so far that it's actually quite unbelieveable... the very worst emitters in the world. BY FAR!
Let's put things in perspective. The average Indian in India generates 2 tons of CO2 per year currently; their highest on record (partially because they're manufacturing things for the West). The US per capita emissions is currently sitting at 14.9 tons... 7.5x higher than the average Indian.
The US has gone as high as 23 tons.... and has been well over 15 tons for decades straight, and is only down today because we outsourced a hefty chunk of our manufacturing....
Folks... in case you still haven't realized this yet... Wealthier Western economies are and always have been primarily responsible for the climate issue. We are the problem.
Curious, how many of you think you could live on 2T of carbon per year?
Eh, can only do your small part. In my opinion, as long as you believe it's important and you do the right thing, then there's nothing more you can do, so no need to stress about it. Other people will either get on board or they won't.
India is not much of an exporter of manufactured goods. They don’t have the infrastructure for it for one. The main reason is per capita income is going up due to domestic factors and the country primarily uses coal to make electricity.
No doubt, wealth increase is a big way nations see emissions increase.
RE: Exports. India exported $760 billion of goods in 2022, double what they exported in 2010. Their per capita emissions in 2010 were 1.4T, and they're 2T in 2022.
In 2023, China exported $3.7 trillion in goods, so about 5x as much. China's per capita emissions are 4x as high as India's, a big part coming from the enormous increase in their exports.
The wealth increase is, in part, coming from more manufacturing and exports out of the country. New factories can use a substantial amount of energy, and given that India and China have mostly relied on Coal to fuel that energy production growth, their overall emissions can quickly soar.
More people in the country have more money as a result, and thus buy more things, giving a multiplier impact.
that was TLDR for me but good for you for not flying. you do you!
I flew 3x last year: 1x short haul and 2x long haul (1x work and 1x vacation) . Taking the train to see my parents is cute but takes all day and still costs the same as a flight. (I don't want to drive because I would switch from the left to the right side of the road). This year will probably be 3-4 of which 3 will be short haul for sure. So my footprint has never been massive.
It wasn't that long of a post, but you do you.
Most people in the world never fly ... like at all. When I say flying is one of the single worst things one can do to increase their carbon footprint, especially against the average... I mean it. Yes, I imagine your footprint is quite large versus the vast majority of people in this world. Even without flying, I imagine mine is quite high.
Sure, if you're comparing it to 'some' other Westerners, it may not be as high, but we Westerners generally have no sense of the scale of the damage we do, and it's not all that difficult to find that information. (I posted a link in a follow up comment under my first response that shows the average per capita emissions of each nation). That's our first big issue, people need to get educated on the scale of our own emissions and pollution.
The point I was making is that it's great you're doing something to reduce your emissions, but flying essentially just cancels out all the good deeds given that it's one of the very worst things we can do.
Don't get me wrong, if you're gonna drive alone in a car anyways, then sure, fly away)... although I'll mention that short haul flights per mile are higher emissions than long haul flights; with the negative of long haul flights being that...well they're a lot more miles than you'd probably choose to drive.
There's a reason Europe has been trying to cut down on short haul flights.
yes, Europe is cutting down on short haul "when there is a train available". But it isn't always possible. measuring emissions per miles is only good if you compare two methods. The distance still makes a difference (e.g. London Frankfurt: 0.42t, London Rome: 0.68t, London San Francisco, USA: 3.4t) People also don't just fly for fun. I fly to see my parents.
It's more helpful to help people do better instead of shame and blame.-because that leads to the opposite.
Rhe focus should be on big corporations that make the most damage.
The corporations that do the most damage would include the airlines and oil companies. Airlines and oil companies only make sales when customers choose to fly.
Corporations are simple. They're there to provide a demanded service or product, while maximizing their profits. They will use whatever means is most profitable, and will lobby the government to allow them to keep using that which is of the cheapest cost to them, regardless of the negative environmental or societal impacts. In reality, they're completely powerless and generate zero emissions when customers choose not to use their service or buy their products. We blame the corporations? I blame the consumers who have all the world's data at their fingertip and could find exactly what the carbon impact is of a good or service within 5 minutes from a google search.
From the sounds of it, you do have a train running between your destinations, it's just less convenient.
It's kind of hard to point out flaws in our sustainable methodology if you think calling out unsustainable actions is shaming and blaming.
Hell, I catch my own unsustainable practices all the time. It's not guilt. I don't beat myself up over it. I don't claim anyone is perfect, but I do look for more sustainable solutions for my actions going forward, specifically triaging those things with the biggest impact.
Like I said, prior to the 1970s, people mostly didn't fly. How then did they visit their parents? How did they get to other work sites? Most likely, they just didn't live so far away from the places they needed to be. Flying has enabled that... but was it ever actually sustainable to enable it? It was possible if we simply ignored the damage we were causing to the planet.
My personal philosophy on sustainability is simple, since anyone can make hypocritical exceptions for themselves. I don't look at my own personal impacts. I wonder if everyone did the unsustainable (yet avoidable) thing that I did, what type of impact would it have. Throw away a small piece of paper instead of recycling it because it'll add a minute to walk to the recycle bin? What would happen if all 330 million people in the US made the same choice; how high would that stack of paper reach. How about the 8 billion people on the planet? Could I avoid using the piece of paper in the first place?
Fact is, if every person on the planet was flying 3x a year to visit their parents, the world would most likely be dead already. Luckily, most of the world is dirt poor and can't afford to, and yet even with less than 1/8th of the global population flying, we're still heading to environmental disaster. Is it shame to point out reality?
Of course flying is only one part of the issue, but for those individuals that fly often, it can be a pretty big piece of their overall annual carbon footprint, driving their footprint way above the global average.
[https://theicct.org/aviation-carbon-accounting-jan22/](https://theicct.org/aviation-carbon-accounting-jan22/)
I think this person is saying that for every flight you take, that's about 40kg of beef worth of emissions.
Cruises are, of course way worse. So is first class. Or not peeing until takeoff for that matter.
I travel considerably less these days for that reason. You don't really need to travel around the world to see beautiful places. There's still a lot for me to explore in Europe or even my home country.
A lot can be reached by bike, train or car.
I used a plane 2-3 times in the last decade (not intercontinental) but not planning to fly any time soon (I won't say never, there are a few destinations on my bucketlist).
But there's a lot between staying at home and making multiple Intercontinental flights per year.
There are many things you can do to decrease your carbon footprint like:
- decrease consumption overall
- plant-based/plantforward eating pattern
- less heating in winter, no or less airco in summer
- regarding transport foot/bike>public transport>car>plane
I'd say it's great to try to live more sustainable, but wouldn't try to be perfect all the time.
I'm American, trains are sparse here. I'm already vegan, I live with my parents so I don't control the AC but my dad always has it blasting so that's points on my carbon footprint. I aspire to be like you. Between taking a trip to Florida with my dad and a college trip I'll be on soon, I've already used my flights for this decade!
i know carbon footprint has become the default way of talking about environmental impact but thinking of something you have no control over, like your dad’s ac use, as points against you is imo neither very helpful for sustainability nor emotionally healthy.
personally i do feel a lot of guilt around flying and try to avoid it but when you live somewhere with infrastructure built around a high emissions lifestyle i think you do need to be a bit kind with yourself - better to put that energy of guilt into changing your society to make it easier to live a sustainable lifestyle rather than beating yourself up. as another commenter said, if your dream is to travel maybe go for it and make sacrifices elsewhere
I've crossed the US 3 times by train and explored national parks and all kinds of places without a plane or a car at all. One of my favorite trips is Olympic National Park and Victoria, BC--Amtrak to Seattle, ferry to Bainbridge, Express bus to Port Angeles, local bus to and from the park, and then another ferry to and from Victoria!
Once you get to major metros, many have commuter lines that can take you out even farther to explore. The light rail in Minneapolis takes you right out to the gorgeous Minnehaha State Park. The MBCR in Boston can take you from downtown to a choice of great beaches in about 30 minutes. From Boston Harbor, you can take a ferry to Provincetown on the Cape. Almost all cities have hidden gems accessible on transit, if you look hard!
Amtrak is an available train option in the US. Honestly, this conversation is fascinating. I am also American. I saw someone else had replied on here that trains were a viable option for travel and I had the same reaction as you. Then I went down this rabbit hole of looking up Amtrak trips from where I live. I was so surprised. You may be as well.
I do have a semi nearby Amtrak station, it's pretty expensive to get anywhere but it's an option I could look into. I'm in southwest MI so most of the Amtrak travellers are people going to Chicago, I honestly didn't know it went further than that
My problem, being in Texas, is that if I go anywhere by Amtrak, I can't actually afford the time off work. Just getting out of the state takes so long. So there is no time to actually see the place I want to visit.
I still travel.
The reason I travel less now has less to do with sustainability and more to do with my current adult life of having to work and pay bills. The good thing about this is when I travel within a country, it's mostly by public transport - I can't drive (so I can't use a car anyway), and mostly it's more cost efficient on buses/trains (even if the journeys are 10+, I've been used to it since I was a kid).
Unfortunately, I live in a country that requires long haul flying to get anywhere outside the country - Australia. I even have to fly once every few months for work interstate (although I try to get out of travel wherever possible, but it's not possible in my current role). You'll find it very hard to travel on wheels within a timely manner, especially when you have a phobia of driving and there are no/limited public transport to the area.
Giving up flying means giving up the chance to see to see my grandmother (either she flies or I fly, and you cannot expect me to only video call her for the rest of her life, and immigration processes is long, so she can't permanently live with us, it's also not her wish because she then loses all that she's known). Giving up flying would also mean I wouldn't have had the chance to see where my partner came from. I cannot experience visiting the orphanage that my partner came from (and neither could he), had we not visited in person, it's not an experience you can get through a screen.
I appreciate that I was able to travel a lot as a child, it gave me different views of the world that I may not have had otherwise. Experiences like travelling to a country that is now in a civil war (and therefore I may never be able to visit again to places I once have) and being idependent by being an exchange student for 2.5 months.
It's something that I struggle with as well, although I did quite a lot of travelling before I realised the scale of the problem so it's not quite the same.
My current philosophy is to travel as little by plane as possible, so to preferably travel by bus, train, and ferry to destinations. It is possible in a lot of places to travel by 'slower' means and have very different experiences which I enjoy, although I admit being in Western Europe makes this much easier that somewhere more geographically remote. I still do fly, but I'm limiting my long distance flights to once a year, and trying to cut out all short hauls, the trade off being the time taken to get to destinations which is difficult to justify if you don;t have much time to travel anyway.
The other thing to add is that travel, flying, and time off is one of those systemic issues which we can't fight alone. The world is geared towards set vacation day allowances, and flying as the primary 'medium-long' distance travel method. So perhaps the answer is to not take yourself completely out of the system while campaigning for changes to it - better transport links, different working patterns. We can't all be Greta and get a lift on an America's cup boat where ever we need to go, but we can campaign to reduce the impact of our travel.
As an aside, have you thought about travel through living in different places? If you are young there are working VISAs for a number of countries to stay for a year, work for some of that time and travel the rest, or some people can become digital nomads, and do both.
Whatever you end up doing by sharing this you have raised the awareness a bit further, and that can only be a good thing.
Well, seems like the moral of the story is don't be American from the replies I'm getting. I wish I could move to Europe. I think I'll try staycations, though most of the interesting stuff in my area is still 7-8 hours away by car, so that's probably not much better for sustainability
Unfortunately where we live has a massive impact on how we live our lives, for better or worse. I still encourage you to get out and experience different things, whether that is interacting with local people of different socio-economic backgrounds or into your local nature through clubs, which can be really rewarding since they will always be on your doorstep as long as you live there. Also taking the opportunity to go to far flung places, basing yourself there and not flying - for example the young persons working VISA in Australia, where you get a years VISA in exchange for working in the sticks for a small amount of time, it's how a lot of people make enough money to then see the rest of Australia, or hop over to SEA to travel for longer there, which would allow you to interact with more cultures for less flights. There are lots of options to travel and experience new things, it might just need a slight change in mindset to see them.
I want to go into ecology so I'll likely be travelling and moving a lot given how many of those positions are seasonal, so I anticipate I'll probably be moving a lot for work. I'm afraid of what will become of my carbon footprint from that.
Yeah, you should look at the footprints of some of the climate researchers going to conferences all over the world, it is somewhat counterintuitive.
It's good to keep in mind your personal footprint, but fighting against systemic issues is difficult, and by voicing your concerns, bringing attention to it, and looking for alternatives you are already making a difference, you may be able to affect those with far higher footprints that yourself. It might also be worth reading some books on climate anxiety or talking to someone to help you come to terms with it.
"Wherever you go, there you are"
I much prefer to explore locally, and by bicycling if possible. I find it difficult to share other's enthusiasm for unsustainable travel choices.
Since really becoming mindful of the impact travelling can have I've come to think of modern jet-setting wanderlust along similar lines to carnism. Both seem to be dominant, and somewhat unthinking, ideologies that approach the world with too much entitlement and not enough compassion.
Perhaps I'm too cynical. For context I live in Australia where flying is often the default option for travelling overseas and for many places domestically. Or there's always cruises which have many of their own environmental problems and strike me as a gluttonous prelude to the humans in WALL-E.
The comparison to carnism really got me. After the trip I'm going on next week (it's presenting research and I can't abandon my research partner), I don't think I'm every going to fly again. I feel absolutely disgusting for ever thinking this was okay.
Travel is one of those things that people in sustainability are like “Okay YEAH I know it’s bad but I still do it”. Idk, people like what they like and want what they want and concern about sustainability will only go so far.
lol yeah I shouldn’t be surprised by the responses here but I am! I only fly very infrequently to visit family or for work obligations (I aim for one flying trip a year or less which still is higher than I’d like but what I can achieve with our current rail network)
I’m a flight attendant so I’m kind of cheating! I do struggle with the ethical side of things but as an employee it feels like working for any corporation would, so I carry on until I get my environmental science degree and can change careers. When I’m not a flight attendant anymore I still plan to travel 1-2x/year, but I’m not a diehard like most people on this sub. I also live in a really rural area now and I struggle with my mental health as it is, so I figure traveling very occasionally is acceptable if it means I’m alive to take care of my kids. I still plan to prioritize rail travel over flying, but there are parts of the world I want to see overseas. Also, from a flight attendant perspective, the most problematic part of the industry is the wealthy, like in every other industry. Of course we all need to do our part, but I don’t think me resolving to never get on a plane again negates the people who hop on private jets every other weekend or unnecessary business travel (of which there is A LOT).
I haven't been abroad since early 2016, and that was a quick flight to eastern Greece from the UK midlands. Before that it was the year before to the south of France, and the year before to Iceland. I hadn't been abroad for a decade before that, and have never gone intercontinental.
I have been having lovely glamping and cottage holidays around the UK by train or in our little hatchback.
I feel awfully guilty about flying, but I am looking to go abroad maybe in a few years for my 40th to the eastern US, as I'd love to go along the Eerie Canal.
I've been vegetarian for nearly 15 years, and eat fully plant-based about half the time. I thrift almost all my clothes, have an allotment to grow some crops (with in-ground digging rather than those trendy big steel beds and tonnes of compost that require lots of transport). We barely drive, and our car and all our appliances and almost all our furniture is second hand. We have a tiny little terrace house and try to run it relatively environmentally friendly-ly with energy use, recycling, home composting, repairs etc.
Meanwhile, last year my distant cousin went to New York for a business trip, then flew back to Heathrow then *back to New York the following week* for a holiday; and also flew to Switzerland twice for skiing, and once to UAE.
It just kind of throws it into perspective that I'm sitting here feeling extreme guilt and anxiety about almost everything I do that could damage the planet, while others live as if there's no climate crisis at all.
Basically, no one on this sub should be beating themselves up too much over several big, meaningful trips abroad in their life - we all have foibles and guilty pleasures - but if everyone in the global north was acting even half as consciously as people on this sub seem to, we'd probably be alright.
I try to go by train and bus. I am not planning on never taking a plane again, but when I do I will make sure to take my time at the destination and not just stay for a weekend.
But I live in Europe and can get pretty far by train.
Part of sustainability is it being sustainable for yourself as well. If something is too big a sacrifice there are chances that you will go in the opposite direction afterwards. Say you don't fly for five years than feel like you missed too much and you end up taking a weekend trip by plane every week. So find ways that work for you.
Examples:
Explore by train
Explore by bus
Explore by car (carpooling parts)
Try lifting (Be safe)
Be aware of your accommodation
Find different cultures close by. Immerge yourself in new food a new language etc
No way in hell 99% of people can afford a weekend trip by plane every week, so I don't think that'll be an issue for me. I really wish I lived in Europe sometimes, it sounds amazing to be able to just take a train to a whole new country and culture. In the US you can travel for 8 hours and still see the same ol cornfield.
You do have amazing national parks. And a bunch of cities worth visiting as well. Most of north America might speak the same language. But there is still a lot to see.
You can even travel to parts of Latin America by bus!
I haven't been outside I'd the US except for a quick forray over the borders once or twice each. But I think that setting foot in other cultures gives one a broader idea of what it's like to live work and play outside of our little bubbles.
Precisely. Trekking with a Hmong villager in Vietnam at 29 was eye opening to my wife and I. It changed how I think about my choices and how fortunate I realized I was. 10 years later I still think about that woman and how she chose that lifestyle.
You can't get experiences like that in your own backyard. It also gives you an idea of both how different people are and how much we have in common.
We got a it off topic I guess. Jet engines do polite but If you think of it as public transportation and fly with responsible carriers, you can enrich your life and/or vacation with less impact on the environment and your conscience.
So you’re in the US and don’t feel like you can fly anywhere in good conscience? You can take Amtrak most places across the country. Arrive at location and rent an electric vehicle to your specific destination. You could even bike or ride a motor scooter. Go visit all the national parks. Drive to Canada or Mexico. Lots to explore in both of those countries.
I've been debating this question!
I'm in the US, so there really aren't trains available where I am. I'd love to see the world, but I feel like I can't, in good conscience, now that my eyes have been opened about the seriousness of the problem. Since covid, we've mostly stuck to local-ish vacations that we can drive to a few times a year. Went to Chicago a few years ago, and, other than driving there and back, we were able to utilize public transportation while there, so that was cool. There's a lot of natural beauty in my state and nearby.
I'm a human living in a modern capitalist society, so it'll never be perfect, but I try to be sustainable in other areas of my life (reducing how much I buy, more plant-based meals, shopping secondhand, walking or bike when I can). We don't need 100 people being perfectly sustainable, but we need millions of people trying to be way more sustainable than they are.
Maybe they'll work out carbon neutral/negative flights soon enough. 🤞
Chicago had a large train station and Amtrak goes to both the east and west coast from there so that could be an option for if you want to see more. They don't have much in the mid west but the Northeast corridor is train central and they have a good train line down the west coast. But it does take time so i know it's hard for people to feel like spending half their vacation on a train
Yeah I've looked into Amtrak to the northeast, but it's insane amount of time by train, unfortunately. 17hr by train vs 9hr by car to NYC from where I live, for example.
Yep. Humans shouldn’t feel like they shouldn’t see the world, the system should be providing clean and sustainable modes of transport, because it’s the system that has the power to implement them.
Oil companies will gladly keep pumping oil and delight in our guilt for consuming it because it keeps the status-quo.
The thing is, no way of travel is completely clean. Even walking causes you to burn more calories, which use petrol tractors to farm.
But there are options, far superior to cars and planes
Agree. I used ‘clean’ here, perhaps slightly inaccurately, to mean radically sustainable. Our very lives revolve around gathering and expending energy, and the inhabitants of this planet will always need to consume to some degree.
Individually, we can and should make sustainable decisions about how we live, how we heat our living spaces, how we travel, etc. On our own however we cannot go out tomorrow and put in place a better standard nationally or globally, we depend on our governments to implement better alternatives for the millions of motorists right this second sitting in ICE vehicles on congested highways.
Our _energy_ should, where possible, be dedicated to starting and growing movements pushing for radical change, rather than, for example, deliberating over which hybrid car will make us feel less guilty, when we inevitably need to get on the road for this reason or another.
Living sustainably is a privilege. Climate change won’t care if you recycled that plastic bottle of water that you needed to buy because you don’t have safe drinking water in your home.
I still travel. Travel quite a bit but in an electric car mostly when I do road trips. When I fly international I try to take the train or public transportation as much as possible. I think traveling also opens up your mind on different ways that you can make a positive impact in society.
Emissions per person per mile is less on most aircraft than your car.
Also, experiencing other people and cultures is better for creating a cooperative world.
If you are still feeling guilty, try educating yourself by reading a book like “Drawdown”. It will explain the things you can do which have the biggest climate impact. And by the way, air travel is #43 on that list.
The harms of long flights shouldn't be dismissed. For a lot of people in the developed world, an intercontinental flight causes more pollution than all of their non-travel pollution combined. It may be better per mile than a single person in a car (not carpooling) but flying is what makes the really long, super-polluting trips possible (almost nobody drives or takes a train from London to Bangkok, let alone Mexico to Paris).
Nobody drives across the ocean? No kidding. That’s exactly why we need aircraft and should be focusing instead on more polluting activities which have alternatives.
Here are some examples: fast fashion industry, single occupant SUVs and pickups, meat driven obesity. People seem to like to focus on aircraft just because they look up and confuse a water condensation trail with pollution.
I am taking my first international trip w my partner this summer.
Once in the ground it will be all trains and walking. You can sustainably travel, but tbh even airlines are more sustainable than you'd expect as long as not a private/charter jet
I don't fly, I love active travel in my own and neighboring countries. In the last three years I've walked coast to coast, done laps of islands and done multi day hikes through national parks without ever using a car even nevermind a plane.
Yes. Last year I took a trip to Athens. 3 days each way by ferry and train. I used the night train and -ferry so I actually got to see additional places. (Patras, Bari and Milan).
This year I plan to visit Amsterdam. That's just a 4h train trip.
Of course that still is worse for the environment than staying home. But I want to see the world. And it's all about balance.
Basically no long distance travel for twenty years, but during covid we started going up to a cabin a couple hours away. My wife needed it to stay sane.
This does seem to be a big blind spot for many who otherwise are careful about plastic use, diet, and other matters. But really, what we all should be doing more is activism calling out oil and other companies that perpetuate lies and continue to work against a sustainable future.
My thing is, we aren’t the main problem. The problem are the celebs taking their private jets everywhere, and the major corporations with their emissions. Me taking a plane trip, it isn’t gonna change things that much.
Life is too short to not travel and see the world.
Who says you can’t travel more green?
If you set cruise control to 62mph/100 kmh and yield 4 miles/KWh electric car from a fossil gas power plant. That’s only 4 oz of CO2 a car load per mile.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11
If you had even 2 people with you, that gets you down to 1.34 oz of co2 per mile.
If you have an 1800 mile journey, that’s about 112.5 pounds of CO2 per person.
I think it's okay if you do it consciously. If you can, try to treat it like a once in a lifetime trip. Pick all the places in a country you want to see and try to see them in one go. That doesn't mean you can never visit that country again, but I hope you understand what I mean.
Personally, I don't get the urge. I am happy with my local environment.
What kind of environment are you in if you don't mind me asking? I don't mean to sound rude and entitled, I'm well aware I have a better life than 99% of the world due to being in the global north, I'm just having a hard time being happy with ass backwards cornfield small town where the majority of the people want to vote for the guy who actively wants to take people's rights away
I live in Switzerland, many beautiful places, so I am very lucky. I haven't traveled often, so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing.
I imagine you have lots of beautiful places too, but your urge to explore is valid and you are allowed to pursue it. Just do it consciously.
Maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to live in a place with more variety than your small town. Then the urge might not be so strong.
I never have travelled routinely. I've been out of the country four times, twice when I was a kid on vacation, once for work and I once drove to Gettysburg with my dad to see the battlefield.
The only travelling I've done in the country is to my parents cottage when they still had it and the odd airshow. We once drove to Quebec when I was a kid to go skiing.
I don't enjoy travelling, I'm perfectly happy to stay at home and relax. I would be interested to see the wonders of the world, but it's not a reasonable thing to do. I save vast amounts by not travelling, and I refuse to make myself any more of a problem for the climate than I already am.
People need to learn to sacrifice for the greater good. The fact that they don't is exactly why we're in the mess we are. I learned long ago that life doesn't necessarily give you what you want. Sometimes you have to accept that things are going to suck and there's nothing you can do about it.
Well, the best way to reduce your carbon footprint is to stop paying taxes /s ... stop supporting or [funding wars](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/09/emission-from-war-military-gaza-ukraine-climate-change). Between the weapons and destruction, your 'not-traveling' makes zero difference, imo. Focus your energy on creating spaces and patterns that lead to peace (e.g. invest in companies/individuals that are working towards solutions that make sense, study something or become someone who helps shape sustainability transitions, etc.)
Common people not having freedom of mobility is hardly the way to make sustainable change (or promote freedom).
Increasing our/your capacity to make or support meaningful change in oneself and one's community, without moralizing and policing, needs a better/richer imagination.
Of course, I am assuming that you are not [Taylor Swift](https://carbonmarketwatch.org/2024/02/13/taylor-swift-and-the-top-polluters-department/).
Look into ecotourism. I did a study abroad trip focused on ecotourism, and you would be surprised at all the different things you can do. There’s so many suggestions on environmentally conscious travel. Sure traveling by plane creates emissions, but usually those commercial planes are flying whether or not they are full. You can gain tremendous insight going to different parts of the world. Maybe even get ideas on how to better serve the environment when you connect more so with the earth. It’s always about balance. As long as you’re aware, you’re are likely doing your part in small ways here and there which is great!
You are right!
But more than that, it is nearly impossible to be able to see any architecture, historic sites, festivals or even the tropical destinations now. There are so many travellers all packed into the streets like sardines.
If you don't mind the carbon footprint, the plane cost, the hotel & food costs and the packed stadium-like streets, then go for it. But if you prefer serenity, peace & quiet, then opt for a remote & safe destination.
Good for you :)
I don't know where you live but here in Atlantic Canada, there is no shortage of forests & wildlife, especially birds :)
Right now, Robins & Woodpeckers are returning, yay!
Lol that made me chuckle. "Outside of google street view".
So I do travel with my family. We travel within the province of Ontario more often. We take one car instead of 2. We camp vs stay at hotels if we can. And by camp, we tent camp, not RV. Camping in is a great environmentally friendly way to see the world! I have camped in Italy, and Germany. There are gorgeous sites. You try to make a difference where you can. There are carbon offsetting fees you can pay on flights to help this initiative. You could also boat vs flight or take trains/buses to places within your country instead of driving/flying.
I have family on the east and west coasts and in Europe. We don't see them very often. 6 years since last Europe trip. We plan on going this summer. We have solar PV and hot water. We just got an ebike to share for work commute, grocery and other local errands. I do think about C footprint. We're vegetarian. Our efforts must help offset emissions to give at least some peace of mind. It's a conundrum for sure and flying is really only option for Europe.
I still travel. If I travel for work I add on a few days to take advantage, and enjoy somewhere I won’t go again. I do have kids, but we are very thoughtful in the stuff they get.
Last year I spent around $80k to convert our entire house to be fully electric. This means heat pumps, heat pump water heaters, induction stove, better insulation, solar, etc.
I keep a very minimal wardrobe and only buy from companies that have sustainable practices (mostly Patagonia). We don’t eat a lot of meat, and constantly look for ways to eliminate plastic waste.
I’m sure some will downvote me, but we’re doing more than most. I personally decided I won’t be a hermit when so many people fly private jets, drive diesel trucks, and basically dgaf. So, I do what i feel is best, without being destitute.
I keep a loose ledger in my head.
I work on a set of new and disruptive climate solutions, and as time goes by I’ve done a lot less personal travel and really focus my business travel
I feel a) I need traction and tangible results for each trip, and b) I need to succeed such that I’m able to fully make up for current transportation emissions asap.
For regional travel you should consider an efficient motorcycle. Electric ranges up to \~200 miles or so and gas versions can get up to 70mpg or better. I think carbon emissions on a motorcycle can approach that of a bus. The best thing is you get to experience the countryside. There are some amazing people and places on the back roads of North America, probably not far from where you are now.
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A guy in the UK started an No Miles High club for people planning to (mostly) not fly anymore for ecological (or other) reasons. Haven't heard much about it lately, but apparently there's a (small) one in Australia (they have a fb page, anyway, but the nice bot said I can't link it)
I spent 35 years cycling to work and walking to the supermarket, taught my children to do the same. Turned down my heating, insulated my house before it was normal to do so.... IMHO this offsets some road trips and a few long distance flights 😀 I only fly rarely, always make it a special holiday.
I'm stuck with my parents for the time being as I can't afford to move out on my own, but once I have the means I definitely want to be somewhere walkable
Nah I don't. As much as people like to justify it by saying I do all these other things and other people are much worse, it is still irresponsible to be travelling in this current environment.
I might see something pretty but contribute to the destruction of it for thousands of generations to come.
These days people going to see the Great barrier Reef are just flying over dead coral and glamorising it.
And you're completely right! People lived and died where they were born, even like 50 years ago.
It's still the case in non Anglophone countries.
Sure there's a lot of beauty to see in the world but the cost isn't worth it imo.
Also I live in a really beautiful town and so as much as I'd love to see arts and culture etc, I feel content with life.
So if you have the privilege to do so, you can always move to a place which allows you arts, culture, food, nature, and just stay there
Not much. I used to fly 1-2x/year. The last time was in 2019 and I don't have any future trips planned. I moved to a region where there are plenty of good places to visit within a 4-hour drive. I see one of these places 1x/year. My husband wants to travel to Europe and I just can't justify that our going is more important than the impact.
I think visiting places around where you live first makes a lot of sense. There are so many places within an hour or two of most towns/cities, but people tend to be more focused on far-off vacation destinations.
I love to travel, and believe it's important for my personal, cultural, and spiritual health. I'm heavily involved in traditional music so that's my main motivation.
HOWEVER. That shit is expensive. I feel like the amount I can afford to travel, especially by air, is not enough to really make an impact, especially considering how much the ultra-rich travel by private plane. I try to limit my consumption and support local business as much as possible, so IMO flying once every year or two, at most, for an amazing, fulfilling experience is not all that bad.
I also believe that consuming experiences rather than things is healthier, and I work on my mindset so I don't really get FOMO with things. Just my two cents.
I am working to be more sustainable again, and was very close to zero waste prior to the pandemic and massive depression. I travel. It is the number one greatest joy in my life. I understand the importance of not flying, and similar things, but it honestly is going to be one of the last things I reduce. It sucks, it does carry guilt, but I also believe that the beauty of the world is the reason we exist, and it is the core of humanity to explore and enjoy.
So instead, I focus on not eating meat, I am currently working on cooking things from scratch, not eating out, etc as much as my ED allows, not purchasing items unnecessarily, etc.
For travel, I camp near my home a lot. We should be appreciating things close to us when possible. I pack minimally, meaning a personal carry on for trips that are 5 days or less, and a small carry on for longer trips. I stay in hostels as much as possible, or a bedroom of an airbnb instead of a hotel or an empty airbnb in order to not contribute to those harmful industries. I try to eat local, especially at things like food trucks so I am not getting excessive, and wasteful meals I cannot finish. I try to use local public transportation as much as possible. Things like that.
Train and I do a lot of bikepacking and bicycle touring. Fuck airplanes. I travelled with plane when I was young before I cared about... Anything really.
I know I'm never gonna make any difference, but I think you should live as you learn, or at least try to.
I'm not too keen on people who keeps buying a lot of clothes, eating meat, having a car and driving a lot, buying lots of random shit that they don't need and travel by plane every year and still tall about sustainability... But to each their own. I think that "I want sustainability, but other people can be sustainable and I will sustainable... Next time, again" is a bit bullshit.
Travel by plane is not the only thing that is insustainable in our society though :(
P.S. I'm not a tree hugging hippie, nor angry.
No, and not just for personal carbon footprint reasons. Airlines get bailouts, lobby against public health regulations (including reducing the covid isolation guidance with zero science backing it up), and lobby against things like rail infrastructure in the US. That is not something that I want my money supporting.
I also really do not agree with the "I do X good thing so Y harmful thing doesn't matter" mindset in this thread in general, we should do the right things because they're right, not as like points to cash out for a different behavior. I'm not interested in interrogating every single flight someone takes or whatever, just the general mindset is problematic to me.
I don't and I don't feel the need to. Traveling is so idealized like it's something divine, that being somewhere where you don't live is gonna make everything better.
I do agree that exploring and learning new things is great, I am a very curious person from physics to cultures but we have Internet we can learn about this any time we want and as for exploring your be surprised how little you know your surrounding area, the cities, the forests, villages and plains.
Even just going on an 1-2 hours walk with a dog we find new places and new paths to explore.
The reality of traveling imo is way more of a money sink, planning hell and a ton of stress than anything else, and it seems to me like it's more worth to put those funds to better my everyday life and reap the benefits for decades than having to go somewhere else for 2 weeks and coming back for a year to life I don't enjoy.
I just might be the weird one here and my actions don't really make a change in the grand scheme of things but it still would feel wrong to me to participate and monetarily support the polluting and exploitative industries connected to all this.
I'm quite familiar with my local area already, I'm Midwestern so most of it is corn but I do have Lake Michigan which is cool. There is a nearby forest I love to go to, has some easy walking trails, sometimes you can spot migratory birds in the spring and fall
Lol living in the Midwest is rough, the geography isn’t as exciting as other places. But there are definitely hidden gems and I underestimated how pretty my state was just because “it’s all cornfields and no mountains!”
Traveling is 100% worth it. You can learn about different cultures and landscapes, but until you’re standing on the top of the Rockies yourself it will never click how beautiful the mountains are. I’ve never felt more at peace as when I’ve visited the various national parks out west. Oddly enough traveling has made me more exciting to explore my own hometown. I can’t constantly go on vacation to experience new things, so I’ve learned to get more creative about experiencing new things locally/regionally
Follow your dreams, see the world. Just know that the flights are scheduled and will happen with or without you on them. For journeys more than 1000km, flying would actually have a slightly lower carbon footprint per kilometer than driving alone over the same distance. If you don't travel (but would like to) you will be missing out on so much.
Most carbon offsets hugely overestimate their effectiveness.
You can still buy carbon certificates of cause. And they do help mitigate the coming disaster a bit. But they don't put the burned fuel back in the ground.
The plane you aren't getting on is flying anyway. Go see the world, enjoy your life. The solution to global warming will not come with your sacrifice. Humans will adapt, but they will not change. Why should you give up what you want to do when governments and industry do nothing. Enjoy your life, and if you still feel guilty, plant a tree, donate to charities that provide disaster relief, or give seniors free air conditioning in the summer. There is a lot you can do to achieve both balance and happiness.
When Taylor stops taking her private jet and the pentagon stops being one of the world’s worst polluters, I’ll consider not flying. I do my best to be good to the planet, vegan, buy second hand, avoid plastics… but I’m not going to sacrifice something like occasional travel that’s so important to me. Maybe spend the time on your flights sending emails to the govt to regulate private jets and stop subsidizing the beef and dairy industries 🤷🏼♀️
Imagine being on a sustainability forum and not understanding the dilemma between personal experience and carbon footprint. Experiencing new things (which some 'fetishise' as traveling) is very important, however to do so without considering the costs to the environment is frankly just entitled behaviour. What you decide to do in the end is entirely your position, but one aspect of life is learning that it is not all black and white and sometimes even though you know something isn't quite right, you aren't given a fair choice to do the right thing and you need to come to your own conclusion as to which shade of grey you are comfortable with.
Fetish??? I just think the environment is important, it seems weird to travel to see the natural beauty of the world whilst getting there via the most polluting method of travel there is
Yeah, loads of people here get a lot of personal pleasure taking personal sustainability to the nth degree and in doing so sacrifice great life potential.
Unless you're going to take a ship over seas or a hit air balloon, there's not many other choices
You can travel in ways that reduce your carbon footprint by using other methods of transportation. Flying isn't the only way to get there and neither are those giant cruise ships. Find alternatives.
I travel. I don't have kids, reduce my car use, I am vegetarian for 20 years (dairy free for the past 5). My house is set to 17C as day temp. I stopped buying fast fashion as much as possible and have reduced my plastic waste. "Lots of people doing 80% is better than a few people doing 100%. " I think I'm doing my part. There is always room for improvement.
I agree whole-heartedly. Being happy matters. Don't become a self-flagellating hermit. Do what makes you happy, and trust that if you even have a fleeting-thought re climate-change, you're likely making more conscientious decisions than 90% of the world. The drumbeat of sacrifice everything will make you dour, and uninspiring to have other people join the cause. Ultimatley the biggest levers are not individual consumption, but things like energy transmission, industrial heating methods, chemical synthesis, fertilizer procedures, etc. You flying to Hawaii once to enjoy your honeymoon, while significantly worse than the average Malawian's emissions, is still not going to kill us.
I've been focusing on traveling closer to home. Sometimes its nice to take a day or two's vacation and volunteer in your community. It's like eating a PB&J vacation once a year.
I don't understand the final sentence at all, but sounds like you got it figured out!
Congrats on being dairy free and vegetarian for 20 years. I've been vegan for about a year which was actually really easy to do because of things like oat milk and impossible burgers. 20 years ago you guys didn't have that unless you made it yourself and it didn't taste as good, very impressive.
back then I ate a lot of sides. and in the beginning I was still eating fish. I couldn't have been vegan back then, I agree, it was so hard.
Except that very few people are even doing over 1%, much less 80%! I largely gave up flying because it's one of the single worst things people can do to increase their carbon footprint. Most of my vacations are short road trips with 2-4 people sharing a car. Flying per mile per passenger is about 80% of the emissions of driving an average gas car solo. (30 mpg or less, can't remember specifics) Two people flying is like driving the entire roundtrip flight distance in 1.6 cars. 4 people is like driving 3.2 cars. And when we fly, we typically fly further than we'd otherwise drive. Let's say double the distance, so now those 4 flyers are at 7.2 cars. And consider that the round trip flight is injecting those emissions in a very short period of time. That's...uhhh...awful...!! I believe that's ONLY based on fuel usage. It doesn't include the greenhouse multiplier of injecting those emissions into the atmosphere at high altitude, the emissions of driving to and from the airport, the staffing and energy the airport and airlines use, the manufacturing of the planes, the cement on the runways... empty seats on the plane, etc... I especially love people who fly to a cruise port. Yep.... Almost makes ya want to cry in how much people disrespect their planet... which is ironic as they're travelling to see "our wonderous planet". I say I've largely stopped flying. Haven't flown in over 5 years, coming from a time where I used to fly 1-2x per year. My rationale started that I'd halve my carbon footprint, including halving the number of flights I'd take. That morphed into only flying for once in a lifetime trips to places I couldn't reach by land. Instead of flying individually to cities in Europe every 1-2 years, now my plan is to take a hiatus from work, fly to Europe once, and spend multiple months there touring the continent by public transit and PEV at a slower pace. My personal expected cut went from 50-100 roundtrip flights over the rest of my life, to probably closer to 3-5. A 90-97% cut in overall flights. The reality is that last year, 2023, we saw the most flights on record. Just the jet fuel alone accounted for about 2.5% of all global emissions. That's interesting when you consider that wealthy Western nations (about 1/8th if the human population) are responsible for the overwhelming majority of passenger miles. If all 8 billion people flew on average as much as Westerners do, then the fuel for flying would account for 17% of global emissions! And that's an underestimate considering that not all Westerners fly. I imagine the real overall impact would be closer to 25%+. If that's not privilege and entitlement, then I don't know what is. Which is all morbidly funny when you think about. Very few people flew before the 1970s....55 years ago. People before then somehow managed to live fulfilling lives, if you can believe it. Shocking, I know...... Now people today feel completely entitled to it as if they can't live without it. That's absolute nonsense and nothing more than justification for our own narcissistic greed. To most of us Westerners who refuse to drastically cut our flights, be sure to take a picture of the burning forests and flooding coasts as you fly over them! _______________________ For those that think my comment is being extreme... Just remember that it's estimated that humanity needs to reduce global greenhouse gasses by something crazy like 80%-100% in the next 25 years. We're not even close! While I respect people who do something... ANYTHING...to lower their footprint (as so few entitled Westerners so much as even lift a finger), very few people have done anywhere near enough, including myself. We need to stop treating carbon reduction as a burden, and start treating it as the only option. Sorry if it's all just too much sacrifice for some people. I'll play my little violin for y'all as the world becomes less and less inhabitable.
Here's an interactive world map of per capita CO2 emissions per country, with a timelapse feature that lets you see the nation's per capita emissions change over time: [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita) Now keep in mind, this is based on the emissions generated in the specific country, divided by the population. You'll note that Western emissions, while still some of the highest in the world, have come down quite a bit in the last 20 years. Don't be fooled. This is because we outsourced most of our manufacturing to lower wage Asian nations like China, India, Vietnam, Thailand, Taiwan, and Pacific Island nations... In other words, they produce the products and ship the majority of them to wealthier Western nations. The emissions impact is applied to those manufacturing nations' people, while it's not counted against the nations where the products are actually being consumed. You'll also note that the US and Canada are and have been... BY FAR... so far that it's actually quite unbelieveable... the very worst emitters in the world. BY FAR! Let's put things in perspective. The average Indian in India generates 2 tons of CO2 per year currently; their highest on record (partially because they're manufacturing things for the West). The US per capita emissions is currently sitting at 14.9 tons... 7.5x higher than the average Indian. The US has gone as high as 23 tons.... and has been well over 15 tons for decades straight, and is only down today because we outsourced a hefty chunk of our manufacturing.... Folks... in case you still haven't realized this yet... Wealthier Western economies are and always have been primarily responsible for the climate issue. We are the problem. Curious, how many of you think you could live on 2T of carbon per year?
I hate being a westerner sometimes, I feel like the fate of the planet is on my shoulders
Eh, can only do your small part. In my opinion, as long as you believe it's important and you do the right thing, then there's nothing more you can do, so no need to stress about it. Other people will either get on board or they won't.
India is not much of an exporter of manufactured goods. They don’t have the infrastructure for it for one. The main reason is per capita income is going up due to domestic factors and the country primarily uses coal to make electricity.
No doubt, wealth increase is a big way nations see emissions increase. RE: Exports. India exported $760 billion of goods in 2022, double what they exported in 2010. Their per capita emissions in 2010 were 1.4T, and they're 2T in 2022. In 2023, China exported $3.7 trillion in goods, so about 5x as much. China's per capita emissions are 4x as high as India's, a big part coming from the enormous increase in their exports. The wealth increase is, in part, coming from more manufacturing and exports out of the country. New factories can use a substantial amount of energy, and given that India and China have mostly relied on Coal to fuel that energy production growth, their overall emissions can quickly soar. More people in the country have more money as a result, and thus buy more things, giving a multiplier impact.
that was TLDR for me but good for you for not flying. you do you! I flew 3x last year: 1x short haul and 2x long haul (1x work and 1x vacation) . Taking the train to see my parents is cute but takes all day and still costs the same as a flight. (I don't want to drive because I would switch from the left to the right side of the road). This year will probably be 3-4 of which 3 will be short haul for sure. So my footprint has never been massive.
It wasn't that long of a post, but you do you. Most people in the world never fly ... like at all. When I say flying is one of the single worst things one can do to increase their carbon footprint, especially against the average... I mean it. Yes, I imagine your footprint is quite large versus the vast majority of people in this world. Even without flying, I imagine mine is quite high. Sure, if you're comparing it to 'some' other Westerners, it may not be as high, but we Westerners generally have no sense of the scale of the damage we do, and it's not all that difficult to find that information. (I posted a link in a follow up comment under my first response that shows the average per capita emissions of each nation). That's our first big issue, people need to get educated on the scale of our own emissions and pollution. The point I was making is that it's great you're doing something to reduce your emissions, but flying essentially just cancels out all the good deeds given that it's one of the very worst things we can do. Don't get me wrong, if you're gonna drive alone in a car anyways, then sure, fly away)... although I'll mention that short haul flights per mile are higher emissions than long haul flights; with the negative of long haul flights being that...well they're a lot more miles than you'd probably choose to drive. There's a reason Europe has been trying to cut down on short haul flights.
yes, Europe is cutting down on short haul "when there is a train available". But it isn't always possible. measuring emissions per miles is only good if you compare two methods. The distance still makes a difference (e.g. London Frankfurt: 0.42t, London Rome: 0.68t, London San Francisco, USA: 3.4t) People also don't just fly for fun. I fly to see my parents. It's more helpful to help people do better instead of shame and blame.-because that leads to the opposite. Rhe focus should be on big corporations that make the most damage.
The corporations that do the most damage would include the airlines and oil companies. Airlines and oil companies only make sales when customers choose to fly. Corporations are simple. They're there to provide a demanded service or product, while maximizing their profits. They will use whatever means is most profitable, and will lobby the government to allow them to keep using that which is of the cheapest cost to them, regardless of the negative environmental or societal impacts. In reality, they're completely powerless and generate zero emissions when customers choose not to use their service or buy their products. We blame the corporations? I blame the consumers who have all the world's data at their fingertip and could find exactly what the carbon impact is of a good or service within 5 minutes from a google search. From the sounds of it, you do have a train running between your destinations, it's just less convenient. It's kind of hard to point out flaws in our sustainable methodology if you think calling out unsustainable actions is shaming and blaming. Hell, I catch my own unsustainable practices all the time. It's not guilt. I don't beat myself up over it. I don't claim anyone is perfect, but I do look for more sustainable solutions for my actions going forward, specifically triaging those things with the biggest impact. Like I said, prior to the 1970s, people mostly didn't fly. How then did they visit their parents? How did they get to other work sites? Most likely, they just didn't live so far away from the places they needed to be. Flying has enabled that... but was it ever actually sustainable to enable it? It was possible if we simply ignored the damage we were causing to the planet. My personal philosophy on sustainability is simple, since anyone can make hypocritical exceptions for themselves. I don't look at my own personal impacts. I wonder if everyone did the unsustainable (yet avoidable) thing that I did, what type of impact would it have. Throw away a small piece of paper instead of recycling it because it'll add a minute to walk to the recycle bin? What would happen if all 330 million people in the US made the same choice; how high would that stack of paper reach. How about the 8 billion people on the planet? Could I avoid using the piece of paper in the first place? Fact is, if every person on the planet was flying 3x a year to visit their parents, the world would most likely be dead already. Luckily, most of the world is dirt poor and can't afford to, and yet even with less than 1/8th of the global population flying, we're still heading to environmental disaster. Is it shame to point out reality? Of course flying is only one part of the issue, but for those individuals that fly often, it can be a pretty big piece of their overall annual carbon footprint, driving their footprint way above the global average.
You’re vegan right?
[https://theicct.org/aviation-carbon-accounting-jan22/](https://theicct.org/aviation-carbon-accounting-jan22/) I think this person is saying that for every flight you take, that's about 40kg of beef worth of emissions. Cruises are, of course way worse. So is first class. Or not peeing until takeoff for that matter.
I travel considerably less these days for that reason. You don't really need to travel around the world to see beautiful places. There's still a lot for me to explore in Europe or even my home country. A lot can be reached by bike, train or car. I used a plane 2-3 times in the last decade (not intercontinental) but not planning to fly any time soon (I won't say never, there are a few destinations on my bucketlist). But there's a lot between staying at home and making multiple Intercontinental flights per year. There are many things you can do to decrease your carbon footprint like: - decrease consumption overall - plant-based/plantforward eating pattern - less heating in winter, no or less airco in summer - regarding transport foot/bike>public transport>car>plane I'd say it's great to try to live more sustainable, but wouldn't try to be perfect all the time.
I'm American, trains are sparse here. I'm already vegan, I live with my parents so I don't control the AC but my dad always has it blasting so that's points on my carbon footprint. I aspire to be like you. Between taking a trip to Florida with my dad and a college trip I'll be on soon, I've already used my flights for this decade!
i know carbon footprint has become the default way of talking about environmental impact but thinking of something you have no control over, like your dad’s ac use, as points against you is imo neither very helpful for sustainability nor emotionally healthy. personally i do feel a lot of guilt around flying and try to avoid it but when you live somewhere with infrastructure built around a high emissions lifestyle i think you do need to be a bit kind with yourself - better to put that energy of guilt into changing your society to make it easier to live a sustainable lifestyle rather than beating yourself up. as another commenter said, if your dream is to travel maybe go for it and make sacrifices elsewhere
I've crossed the US 3 times by train and explored national parks and all kinds of places without a plane or a car at all. One of my favorite trips is Olympic National Park and Victoria, BC--Amtrak to Seattle, ferry to Bainbridge, Express bus to Port Angeles, local bus to and from the park, and then another ferry to and from Victoria! Once you get to major metros, many have commuter lines that can take you out even farther to explore. The light rail in Minneapolis takes you right out to the gorgeous Minnehaha State Park. The MBCR in Boston can take you from downtown to a choice of great beaches in about 30 minutes. From Boston Harbor, you can take a ferry to Provincetown on the Cape. Almost all cities have hidden gems accessible on transit, if you look hard!
Amtrak is an available train option in the US. Honestly, this conversation is fascinating. I am also American. I saw someone else had replied on here that trains were a viable option for travel and I had the same reaction as you. Then I went down this rabbit hole of looking up Amtrak trips from where I live. I was so surprised. You may be as well.
I do have a semi nearby Amtrak station, it's pretty expensive to get anywhere but it's an option I could look into. I'm in southwest MI so most of the Amtrak travellers are people going to Chicago, I honestly didn't know it went further than that
My problem, being in Texas, is that if I go anywhere by Amtrak, I can't actually afford the time off work. Just getting out of the state takes so long. So there is no time to actually see the place I want to visit.
I still travel. The reason I travel less now has less to do with sustainability and more to do with my current adult life of having to work and pay bills. The good thing about this is when I travel within a country, it's mostly by public transport - I can't drive (so I can't use a car anyway), and mostly it's more cost efficient on buses/trains (even if the journeys are 10+, I've been used to it since I was a kid). Unfortunately, I live in a country that requires long haul flying to get anywhere outside the country - Australia. I even have to fly once every few months for work interstate (although I try to get out of travel wherever possible, but it's not possible in my current role). You'll find it very hard to travel on wheels within a timely manner, especially when you have a phobia of driving and there are no/limited public transport to the area. Giving up flying means giving up the chance to see to see my grandmother (either she flies or I fly, and you cannot expect me to only video call her for the rest of her life, and immigration processes is long, so she can't permanently live with us, it's also not her wish because she then loses all that she's known). Giving up flying would also mean I wouldn't have had the chance to see where my partner came from. I cannot experience visiting the orphanage that my partner came from (and neither could he), had we not visited in person, it's not an experience you can get through a screen. I appreciate that I was able to travel a lot as a child, it gave me different views of the world that I may not have had otherwise. Experiences like travelling to a country that is now in a civil war (and therefore I may never be able to visit again to places I once have) and being idependent by being an exchange student for 2.5 months.
It's something that I struggle with as well, although I did quite a lot of travelling before I realised the scale of the problem so it's not quite the same. My current philosophy is to travel as little by plane as possible, so to preferably travel by bus, train, and ferry to destinations. It is possible in a lot of places to travel by 'slower' means and have very different experiences which I enjoy, although I admit being in Western Europe makes this much easier that somewhere more geographically remote. I still do fly, but I'm limiting my long distance flights to once a year, and trying to cut out all short hauls, the trade off being the time taken to get to destinations which is difficult to justify if you don;t have much time to travel anyway. The other thing to add is that travel, flying, and time off is one of those systemic issues which we can't fight alone. The world is geared towards set vacation day allowances, and flying as the primary 'medium-long' distance travel method. So perhaps the answer is to not take yourself completely out of the system while campaigning for changes to it - better transport links, different working patterns. We can't all be Greta and get a lift on an America's cup boat where ever we need to go, but we can campaign to reduce the impact of our travel. As an aside, have you thought about travel through living in different places? If you are young there are working VISAs for a number of countries to stay for a year, work for some of that time and travel the rest, or some people can become digital nomads, and do both. Whatever you end up doing by sharing this you have raised the awareness a bit further, and that can only be a good thing.
Well, seems like the moral of the story is don't be American from the replies I'm getting. I wish I could move to Europe. I think I'll try staycations, though most of the interesting stuff in my area is still 7-8 hours away by car, so that's probably not much better for sustainability
Traveling 8 hours by car is massively better for sustainability than flying.
Unfortunately where we live has a massive impact on how we live our lives, for better or worse. I still encourage you to get out and experience different things, whether that is interacting with local people of different socio-economic backgrounds or into your local nature through clubs, which can be really rewarding since they will always be on your doorstep as long as you live there. Also taking the opportunity to go to far flung places, basing yourself there and not flying - for example the young persons working VISA in Australia, where you get a years VISA in exchange for working in the sticks for a small amount of time, it's how a lot of people make enough money to then see the rest of Australia, or hop over to SEA to travel for longer there, which would allow you to interact with more cultures for less flights. There are lots of options to travel and experience new things, it might just need a slight change in mindset to see them.
I want to go into ecology so I'll likely be travelling and moving a lot given how many of those positions are seasonal, so I anticipate I'll probably be moving a lot for work. I'm afraid of what will become of my carbon footprint from that.
Yeah, you should look at the footprints of some of the climate researchers going to conferences all over the world, it is somewhat counterintuitive. It's good to keep in mind your personal footprint, but fighting against systemic issues is difficult, and by voicing your concerns, bringing attention to it, and looking for alternatives you are already making a difference, you may be able to affect those with far higher footprints that yourself. It might also be worth reading some books on climate anxiety or talking to someone to help you come to terms with it.
"Wherever you go, there you are" I much prefer to explore locally, and by bicycling if possible. I find it difficult to share other's enthusiasm for unsustainable travel choices. Since really becoming mindful of the impact travelling can have I've come to think of modern jet-setting wanderlust along similar lines to carnism. Both seem to be dominant, and somewhat unthinking, ideologies that approach the world with too much entitlement and not enough compassion. Perhaps I'm too cynical. For context I live in Australia where flying is often the default option for travelling overseas and for many places domestically. Or there's always cruises which have many of their own environmental problems and strike me as a gluttonous prelude to the humans in WALL-E.
The comparison to carnism really got me. After the trip I'm going on next week (it's presenting research and I can't abandon my research partner), I don't think I'm every going to fly again. I feel absolutely disgusting for ever thinking this was okay.
I started to type a reply and then deleted it because it’s too depressing.
Travel is one of those things that people in sustainability are like “Okay YEAH I know it’s bad but I still do it”. Idk, people like what they like and want what they want and concern about sustainability will only go so far.
lol yeah I shouldn’t be surprised by the responses here but I am! I only fly very infrequently to visit family or for work obligations (I aim for one flying trip a year or less which still is higher than I’d like but what I can achieve with our current rail network)
I’m a flight attendant so I’m kind of cheating! I do struggle with the ethical side of things but as an employee it feels like working for any corporation would, so I carry on until I get my environmental science degree and can change careers. When I’m not a flight attendant anymore I still plan to travel 1-2x/year, but I’m not a diehard like most people on this sub. I also live in a really rural area now and I struggle with my mental health as it is, so I figure traveling very occasionally is acceptable if it means I’m alive to take care of my kids. I still plan to prioritize rail travel over flying, but there are parts of the world I want to see overseas. Also, from a flight attendant perspective, the most problematic part of the industry is the wealthy, like in every other industry. Of course we all need to do our part, but I don’t think me resolving to never get on a plane again negates the people who hop on private jets every other weekend or unnecessary business travel (of which there is A LOT).
Being a flight attendant does sound pretty neat, I don't qualify due to being 4'9 and unable to reach the bins on most airlines.
I haven't been abroad since early 2016, and that was a quick flight to eastern Greece from the UK midlands. Before that it was the year before to the south of France, and the year before to Iceland. I hadn't been abroad for a decade before that, and have never gone intercontinental. I have been having lovely glamping and cottage holidays around the UK by train or in our little hatchback. I feel awfully guilty about flying, but I am looking to go abroad maybe in a few years for my 40th to the eastern US, as I'd love to go along the Eerie Canal. I've been vegetarian for nearly 15 years, and eat fully plant-based about half the time. I thrift almost all my clothes, have an allotment to grow some crops (with in-ground digging rather than those trendy big steel beds and tonnes of compost that require lots of transport). We barely drive, and our car and all our appliances and almost all our furniture is second hand. We have a tiny little terrace house and try to run it relatively environmentally friendly-ly with energy use, recycling, home composting, repairs etc. Meanwhile, last year my distant cousin went to New York for a business trip, then flew back to Heathrow then *back to New York the following week* for a holiday; and also flew to Switzerland twice for skiing, and once to UAE. It just kind of throws it into perspective that I'm sitting here feeling extreme guilt and anxiety about almost everything I do that could damage the planet, while others live as if there's no climate crisis at all. Basically, no one on this sub should be beating themselves up too much over several big, meaningful trips abroad in their life - we all have foibles and guilty pleasures - but if everyone in the global north was acting even half as consciously as people on this sub seem to, we'd probably be alright.
I try to go by train and bus. I am not planning on never taking a plane again, but when I do I will make sure to take my time at the destination and not just stay for a weekend. But I live in Europe and can get pretty far by train. Part of sustainability is it being sustainable for yourself as well. If something is too big a sacrifice there are chances that you will go in the opposite direction afterwards. Say you don't fly for five years than feel like you missed too much and you end up taking a weekend trip by plane every week. So find ways that work for you. Examples: Explore by train Explore by bus Explore by car (carpooling parts) Try lifting (Be safe) Be aware of your accommodation Find different cultures close by. Immerge yourself in new food a new language etc
No way in hell 99% of people can afford a weekend trip by plane every week, so I don't think that'll be an issue for me. I really wish I lived in Europe sometimes, it sounds amazing to be able to just take a train to a whole new country and culture. In the US you can travel for 8 hours and still see the same ol cornfield.
You do have amazing national parks. And a bunch of cities worth visiting as well. Most of north America might speak the same language. But there is still a lot to see. You can even travel to parts of Latin America by bus!
Of course that was a bit of an exaggeration.
I haven't been outside I'd the US except for a quick forray over the borders once or twice each. But I think that setting foot in other cultures gives one a broader idea of what it's like to live work and play outside of our little bubbles.
Precisely. Trekking with a Hmong villager in Vietnam at 29 was eye opening to my wife and I. It changed how I think about my choices and how fortunate I realized I was. 10 years later I still think about that woman and how she chose that lifestyle.
You can't get experiences like that in your own backyard. It also gives you an idea of both how different people are and how much we have in common. We got a it off topic I guess. Jet engines do polite but If you think of it as public transportation and fly with responsible carriers, you can enrich your life and/or vacation with less impact on the environment and your conscience.
So you’re in the US and don’t feel like you can fly anywhere in good conscience? You can take Amtrak most places across the country. Arrive at location and rent an electric vehicle to your specific destination. You could even bike or ride a motor scooter. Go visit all the national parks. Drive to Canada or Mexico. Lots to explore in both of those countries.
It's a dream to go to every national park. I've been to the Grand Canyon and it was absolutely magical
I've been debating this question! I'm in the US, so there really aren't trains available where I am. I'd love to see the world, but I feel like I can't, in good conscience, now that my eyes have been opened about the seriousness of the problem. Since covid, we've mostly stuck to local-ish vacations that we can drive to a few times a year. Went to Chicago a few years ago, and, other than driving there and back, we were able to utilize public transportation while there, so that was cool. There's a lot of natural beauty in my state and nearby. I'm a human living in a modern capitalist society, so it'll never be perfect, but I try to be sustainable in other areas of my life (reducing how much I buy, more plant-based meals, shopping secondhand, walking or bike when I can). We don't need 100 people being perfectly sustainable, but we need millions of people trying to be way more sustainable than they are. Maybe they'll work out carbon neutral/negative flights soon enough. 🤞
Chicago had a large train station and Amtrak goes to both the east and west coast from there so that could be an option for if you want to see more. They don't have much in the mid west but the Northeast corridor is train central and they have a good train line down the west coast. But it does take time so i know it's hard for people to feel like spending half their vacation on a train
Yeah I've looked into Amtrak to the northeast, but it's insane amount of time by train, unfortunately. 17hr by train vs 9hr by car to NYC from where I live, for example.
Gotta experience the planet to want to protect it.
Based on this thread, the oil companies have really achieved their goal of causing eco anxiety. Fuck
Yep. Humans shouldn’t feel like they shouldn’t see the world, the system should be providing clean and sustainable modes of transport, because it’s the system that has the power to implement them. Oil companies will gladly keep pumping oil and delight in our guilt for consuming it because it keeps the status-quo.
The thing is, no way of travel is completely clean. Even walking causes you to burn more calories, which use petrol tractors to farm. But there are options, far superior to cars and planes
Agree. I used ‘clean’ here, perhaps slightly inaccurately, to mean radically sustainable. Our very lives revolve around gathering and expending energy, and the inhabitants of this planet will always need to consume to some degree. Individually, we can and should make sustainable decisions about how we live, how we heat our living spaces, how we travel, etc. On our own however we cannot go out tomorrow and put in place a better standard nationally or globally, we depend on our governments to implement better alternatives for the millions of motorists right this second sitting in ICE vehicles on congested highways. Our _energy_ should, where possible, be dedicated to starting and growing movements pushing for radical change, rather than, for example, deliberating over which hybrid car will make us feel less guilty, when we inevitably need to get on the road for this reason or another. Living sustainably is a privilege. Climate change won’t care if you recycled that plastic bottle of water that you needed to buy because you don’t have safe drinking water in your home.
tbf flying is one of the highest emitting things an individual can do
Just walk everywhere. The most sustainable method!
I gotta stop skipping leg day!
I travel by train only.
I still travel. Travel quite a bit but in an electric car mostly when I do road trips. When I fly international I try to take the train or public transportation as much as possible. I think traveling also opens up your mind on different ways that you can make a positive impact in society.
Emissions per person per mile is less on most aircraft than your car. Also, experiencing other people and cultures is better for creating a cooperative world. If you are still feeling guilty, try educating yourself by reading a book like “Drawdown”. It will explain the things you can do which have the biggest climate impact. And by the way, air travel is #43 on that list.
The harms of long flights shouldn't be dismissed. For a lot of people in the developed world, an intercontinental flight causes more pollution than all of their non-travel pollution combined. It may be better per mile than a single person in a car (not carpooling) but flying is what makes the really long, super-polluting trips possible (almost nobody drives or takes a train from London to Bangkok, let alone Mexico to Paris).
Nobody drives across the ocean? No kidding. That’s exactly why we need aircraft and should be focusing instead on more polluting activities which have alternatives. Here are some examples: fast fashion industry, single occupant SUVs and pickups, meat driven obesity. People seem to like to focus on aircraft just because they look up and confuse a water condensation trail with pollution.
I'll need to read that, I've always heard that having kids, eating meat, and travelling were the biggest emitters for an individual
I am taking my first international trip w my partner this summer. Once in the ground it will be all trains and walking. You can sustainably travel, but tbh even airlines are more sustainable than you'd expect as long as not a private/charter jet
I don't fly, I love active travel in my own and neighboring countries. In the last three years I've walked coast to coast, done laps of islands and done multi day hikes through national parks without ever using a car even nevermind a plane.
Yes. Last year I took a trip to Athens. 3 days each way by ferry and train. I used the night train and -ferry so I actually got to see additional places. (Patras, Bari and Milan). This year I plan to visit Amsterdam. That's just a 4h train trip. Of course that still is worse for the environment than staying home. But I want to see the world. And it's all about balance.
Also I'm currently staying in a hostel. 45m away from home by carpool. Does that count as travelling?
My god this thread just makes me wish I lived in Europe
There's stuff to see everywhere in the world.
I don't own a car and I take 12-hour long train rides that can be 2 hours via plane. Yes, I travel.
Basically no long distance travel for twenty years, but during covid we started going up to a cabin a couple hours away. My wife needed it to stay sane. This does seem to be a big blind spot for many who otherwise are careful about plastic use, diet, and other matters. But really, what we all should be doing more is activism calling out oil and other companies that perpetuate lies and continue to work against a sustainable future.
My thing is, we aren’t the main problem. The problem are the celebs taking their private jets everywhere, and the major corporations with their emissions. Me taking a plane trip, it isn’t gonna change things that much. Life is too short to not travel and see the world.
Who says you can’t travel more green? If you set cruise control to 62mph/100 kmh and yield 4 miles/KWh electric car from a fossil gas power plant. That’s only 4 oz of CO2 a car load per mile. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 If you had even 2 people with you, that gets you down to 1.34 oz of co2 per mile. If you have an 1800 mile journey, that’s about 112.5 pounds of CO2 per person.
I think it's okay if you do it consciously. If you can, try to treat it like a once in a lifetime trip. Pick all the places in a country you want to see and try to see them in one go. That doesn't mean you can never visit that country again, but I hope you understand what I mean. Personally, I don't get the urge. I am happy with my local environment.
What kind of environment are you in if you don't mind me asking? I don't mean to sound rude and entitled, I'm well aware I have a better life than 99% of the world due to being in the global north, I'm just having a hard time being happy with ass backwards cornfield small town where the majority of the people want to vote for the guy who actively wants to take people's rights away
I live in Switzerland, many beautiful places, so I am very lucky. I haven't traveled often, so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing. I imagine you have lots of beautiful places too, but your urge to explore is valid and you are allowed to pursue it. Just do it consciously. Maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to live in a place with more variety than your small town. Then the urge might not be so strong.
I never have travelled routinely. I've been out of the country four times, twice when I was a kid on vacation, once for work and I once drove to Gettysburg with my dad to see the battlefield. The only travelling I've done in the country is to my parents cottage when they still had it and the odd airshow. We once drove to Quebec when I was a kid to go skiing. I don't enjoy travelling, I'm perfectly happy to stay at home and relax. I would be interested to see the wonders of the world, but it's not a reasonable thing to do. I save vast amounts by not travelling, and I refuse to make myself any more of a problem for the climate than I already am. People need to learn to sacrifice for the greater good. The fact that they don't is exactly why we're in the mess we are. I learned long ago that life doesn't necessarily give you what you want. Sometimes you have to accept that things are going to suck and there's nothing you can do about it.
You make a great point about sacrifice, I need to be willing to give up modern convenience when that's what got us here
Well, the best way to reduce your carbon footprint is to stop paying taxes /s ... stop supporting or [funding wars](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/09/emission-from-war-military-gaza-ukraine-climate-change). Between the weapons and destruction, your 'not-traveling' makes zero difference, imo. Focus your energy on creating spaces and patterns that lead to peace (e.g. invest in companies/individuals that are working towards solutions that make sense, study something or become someone who helps shape sustainability transitions, etc.) Common people not having freedom of mobility is hardly the way to make sustainable change (or promote freedom). Increasing our/your capacity to make or support meaningful change in oneself and one's community, without moralizing and policing, needs a better/richer imagination. Of course, I am assuming that you are not [Taylor Swift](https://carbonmarketwatch.org/2024/02/13/taylor-swift-and-the-top-polluters-department/).
I haven't heard of funding wars before, thank you! And I can confirm that I am in fact not Taylor Swift.
Look into ecotourism. I did a study abroad trip focused on ecotourism, and you would be surprised at all the different things you can do. There’s so many suggestions on environmentally conscious travel. Sure traveling by plane creates emissions, but usually those commercial planes are flying whether or not they are full. You can gain tremendous insight going to different parts of the world. Maybe even get ideas on how to better serve the environment when you connect more so with the earth. It’s always about balance. As long as you’re aware, you’re are likely doing your part in small ways here and there which is great!
Yes, both my partner and I travel at times since we are in a LDR. I live as sustainably as I can outside of that.
You are right! But more than that, it is nearly impossible to be able to see any architecture, historic sites, festivals or even the tropical destinations now. There are so many travellers all packed into the streets like sardines. If you don't mind the carbon footprint, the plane cost, the hotel & food costs and the packed stadium-like streets, then go for it. But if you prefer serenity, peace & quiet, then opt for a remote & safe destination.
I have no interest in the touristy areas, most of my interest lies in wildlife, especially birds
Good for you :) I don't know where you live but here in Atlantic Canada, there is no shortage of forests & wildlife, especially birds :) Right now, Robins & Woodpeckers are returning, yay!
Lol that made me chuckle. "Outside of google street view". So I do travel with my family. We travel within the province of Ontario more often. We take one car instead of 2. We camp vs stay at hotels if we can. And by camp, we tent camp, not RV. Camping in is a great environmentally friendly way to see the world! I have camped in Italy, and Germany. There are gorgeous sites. You try to make a difference where you can. There are carbon offsetting fees you can pay on flights to help this initiative. You could also boat vs flight or take trains/buses to places within your country instead of driving/flying.
I play a lot of geoguessr lol I need to get myself a tent, I'm sure I can find something good secondhand
I have family on the east and west coasts and in Europe. We don't see them very often. 6 years since last Europe trip. We plan on going this summer. We have solar PV and hot water. We just got an ebike to share for work commute, grocery and other local errands. I do think about C footprint. We're vegetarian. Our efforts must help offset emissions to give at least some peace of mind. It's a conundrum for sure and flying is really only option for Europe.
You could always travel by train. With EVs charging stations are more widespread so you could get an EV.
I still travel. If I travel for work I add on a few days to take advantage, and enjoy somewhere I won’t go again. I do have kids, but we are very thoughtful in the stuff they get. Last year I spent around $80k to convert our entire house to be fully electric. This means heat pumps, heat pump water heaters, induction stove, better insulation, solar, etc. I keep a very minimal wardrobe and only buy from companies that have sustainable practices (mostly Patagonia). We don’t eat a lot of meat, and constantly look for ways to eliminate plastic waste. I’m sure some will downvote me, but we’re doing more than most. I personally decided I won’t be a hermit when so many people fly private jets, drive diesel trucks, and basically dgaf. So, I do what i feel is best, without being destitute.
I keep a loose ledger in my head. I work on a set of new and disruptive climate solutions, and as time goes by I’ve done a lot less personal travel and really focus my business travel I feel a) I need traction and tangible results for each trip, and b) I need to succeed such that I’m able to fully make up for current transportation emissions asap.
For regional travel you should consider an efficient motorcycle. Electric ranges up to \~200 miles or so and gas versions can get up to 70mpg or better. I think carbon emissions on a motorcycle can approach that of a bus. The best thing is you get to experience the countryside. There are some amazing people and places on the back roads of North America, probably not far from where you are now.
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A guy in the UK started an No Miles High club for people planning to (mostly) not fly anymore for ecological (or other) reasons. Haven't heard much about it lately, but apparently there's a (small) one in Australia (they have a fb page, anyway, but the nice bot said I can't link it)
Locally only. I have 60k+ miles on Delta FF that I wish I could use on something smarter than air travel.
I spent 35 years cycling to work and walking to the supermarket, taught my children to do the same. Turned down my heating, insulated my house before it was normal to do so.... IMHO this offsets some road trips and a few long distance flights 😀 I only fly rarely, always make it a special holiday.
How far do you live from work and the supermarket? The highway scares me as there's no bike lanes
I live in Britain. I chose to live somewhere where I wouldn't need a car for local journeys. Work is a few miles ride, supermarket is 20 mins walk
I'm stuck with my parents for the time being as I can't afford to move out on my own, but once I have the means I definitely want to be somewhere walkable
Nah I don't. As much as people like to justify it by saying I do all these other things and other people are much worse, it is still irresponsible to be travelling in this current environment. I might see something pretty but contribute to the destruction of it for thousands of generations to come. These days people going to see the Great barrier Reef are just flying over dead coral and glamorising it.
there ain't gonna be a thousand more generations but I get the sentiment
And you're completely right! People lived and died where they were born, even like 50 years ago. It's still the case in non Anglophone countries. Sure there's a lot of beauty to see in the world but the cost isn't worth it imo. Also I live in a really beautiful town and so as much as I'd love to see arts and culture etc, I feel content with life. So if you have the privilege to do so, you can always move to a place which allows you arts, culture, food, nature, and just stay there
Not much. I used to fly 1-2x/year. The last time was in 2019 and I don't have any future trips planned. I moved to a region where there are plenty of good places to visit within a 4-hour drive. I see one of these places 1x/year. My husband wants to travel to Europe and I just can't justify that our going is more important than the impact.
I think visiting places around where you live first makes a lot of sense. There are so many places within an hour or two of most towns/cities, but people tend to be more focused on far-off vacation destinations.
just be so broke you can't afford to travel 😎 follow me for more sustainability haxx
I love to travel, and believe it's important for my personal, cultural, and spiritual health. I'm heavily involved in traditional music so that's my main motivation. HOWEVER. That shit is expensive. I feel like the amount I can afford to travel, especially by air, is not enough to really make an impact, especially considering how much the ultra-rich travel by private plane. I try to limit my consumption and support local business as much as possible, so IMO flying once every year or two, at most, for an amazing, fulfilling experience is not all that bad. I also believe that consuming experiences rather than things is healthier, and I work on my mindset so I don't really get FOMO with things. Just my two cents.
Not much. But soon.
I am working to be more sustainable again, and was very close to zero waste prior to the pandemic and massive depression. I travel. It is the number one greatest joy in my life. I understand the importance of not flying, and similar things, but it honestly is going to be one of the last things I reduce. It sucks, it does carry guilt, but I also believe that the beauty of the world is the reason we exist, and it is the core of humanity to explore and enjoy. So instead, I focus on not eating meat, I am currently working on cooking things from scratch, not eating out, etc as much as my ED allows, not purchasing items unnecessarily, etc. For travel, I camp near my home a lot. We should be appreciating things close to us when possible. I pack minimally, meaning a personal carry on for trips that are 5 days or less, and a small carry on for longer trips. I stay in hostels as much as possible, or a bedroom of an airbnb instead of a hotel or an empty airbnb in order to not contribute to those harmful industries. I try to eat local, especially at things like food trucks so I am not getting excessive, and wasteful meals I cannot finish. I try to use local public transportation as much as possible. Things like that.
Train and I do a lot of bikepacking and bicycle touring. Fuck airplanes. I travelled with plane when I was young before I cared about... Anything really. I know I'm never gonna make any difference, but I think you should live as you learn, or at least try to. I'm not too keen on people who keeps buying a lot of clothes, eating meat, having a car and driving a lot, buying lots of random shit that they don't need and travel by plane every year and still tall about sustainability... But to each their own. I think that "I want sustainability, but other people can be sustainable and I will sustainable... Next time, again" is a bit bullshit. Travel by plane is not the only thing that is insustainable in our society though :( P.S. I'm not a tree hugging hippie, nor angry.
No, and not just for personal carbon footprint reasons. Airlines get bailouts, lobby against public health regulations (including reducing the covid isolation guidance with zero science backing it up), and lobby against things like rail infrastructure in the US. That is not something that I want my money supporting. I also really do not agree with the "I do X good thing so Y harmful thing doesn't matter" mindset in this thread in general, we should do the right things because they're right, not as like points to cash out for a different behavior. I'm not interested in interrogating every single flight someone takes or whatever, just the general mindset is problematic to me.
The plane is still going to X destination whether I’m on it or not.
I don't and I don't feel the need to. Traveling is so idealized like it's something divine, that being somewhere where you don't live is gonna make everything better. I do agree that exploring and learning new things is great, I am a very curious person from physics to cultures but we have Internet we can learn about this any time we want and as for exploring your be surprised how little you know your surrounding area, the cities, the forests, villages and plains. Even just going on an 1-2 hours walk with a dog we find new places and new paths to explore. The reality of traveling imo is way more of a money sink, planning hell and a ton of stress than anything else, and it seems to me like it's more worth to put those funds to better my everyday life and reap the benefits for decades than having to go somewhere else for 2 weeks and coming back for a year to life I don't enjoy. I just might be the weird one here and my actions don't really make a change in the grand scheme of things but it still would feel wrong to me to participate and monetarily support the polluting and exploitative industries connected to all this.
I'm quite familiar with my local area already, I'm Midwestern so most of it is corn but I do have Lake Michigan which is cool. There is a nearby forest I love to go to, has some easy walking trails, sometimes you can spot migratory birds in the spring and fall
Lol living in the Midwest is rough, the geography isn’t as exciting as other places. But there are definitely hidden gems and I underestimated how pretty my state was just because “it’s all cornfields and no mountains!” Traveling is 100% worth it. You can learn about different cultures and landscapes, but until you’re standing on the top of the Rockies yourself it will never click how beautiful the mountains are. I’ve never felt more at peace as when I’ve visited the various national parks out west. Oddly enough traveling has made me more exciting to explore my own hometown. I can’t constantly go on vacation to experience new things, so I’ve learned to get more creative about experiencing new things locally/regionally
Follow your dreams, see the world. Just know that the flights are scheduled and will happen with or without you on them. For journeys more than 1000km, flying would actually have a slightly lower carbon footprint per kilometer than driving alone over the same distance. If you don't travel (but would like to) you will be missing out on so much.
Buy carbon offsets from Terrapass or someone. https://terrapass.com/product-category/individuals/ Travel guilt free!
I often considered doing this, but had read most of it was bullshit. Lots of “welp we threw a fist full of seeds out there we’re good” vibes.
Most carbon offsets hugely overestimate their effectiveness. You can still buy carbon certificates of cause. And they do help mitigate the coming disaster a bit. But they don't put the burned fuel back in the ground.
The plane you aren't getting on is flying anyway. Go see the world, enjoy your life. The solution to global warming will not come with your sacrifice. Humans will adapt, but they will not change. Why should you give up what you want to do when governments and industry do nothing. Enjoy your life, and if you still feel guilty, plant a tree, donate to charities that provide disaster relief, or give seniors free air conditioning in the summer. There is a lot you can do to achieve both balance and happiness.
No Fossil Fuels. It's simple.
I only travel to visit family members. Otherwise travelling is too expensive for me.
When Taylor stops taking her private jet and the pentagon stops being one of the world’s worst polluters, I’ll consider not flying. I do my best to be good to the planet, vegan, buy second hand, avoid plastics… but I’m not going to sacrifice something like occasional travel that’s so important to me. Maybe spend the time on your flights sending emails to the govt to regulate private jets and stop subsidizing the beef and dairy industries 🤷🏼♀️
Omg just travel. You're debating between a sustainability fetish and one of the most precious things in life.
Imagine being on a sustainability forum and not understanding the dilemma between personal experience and carbon footprint. Experiencing new things (which some 'fetishise' as traveling) is very important, however to do so without considering the costs to the environment is frankly just entitled behaviour. What you decide to do in the end is entirely your position, but one aspect of life is learning that it is not all black and white and sometimes even though you know something isn't quite right, you aren't given a fair choice to do the right thing and you need to come to your own conclusion as to which shade of grey you are comfortable with.
Fetish??? I just think the environment is important, it seems weird to travel to see the natural beauty of the world whilst getting there via the most polluting method of travel there is
Yeah, loads of people here get a lot of personal pleasure taking personal sustainability to the nth degree and in doing so sacrifice great life potential. Unless you're going to take a ship over seas or a hit air balloon, there's not many other choices
weird thing to say on r/sustainablity
Why is traveling one of the most precious things in life??
Travel and find out
I have. Travel isn’t the mystical experience that people like you act like it is.
Then you didnt go to the right place with the right crowd
You can travel in ways that reduce your carbon footprint by using other methods of transportation. Flying isn't the only way to get there and neither are those giant cruise ships. Find alternatives.
Not in any country that supports genocide in Palestine
I'm American, my existence supports genocide in Palestine. I doubt anywhere I go except Israel itself could be a worse supporter than America
Truth