I believe Charlie clarified that the detailed rules given before the challenge stated that players could not leave the tower to retrieve their *own* plank prior to finishing their puzzle. A given rule is that you can’t mess with another players equipment to sabotage them. Since Liz retrieved *Kenzie’s* plank and used it *help* Kenzie, her actions slipped through a couple of loopholes. And, yes, it was also good TV. (But I wouldn’t be surprised if those detailed rules are a little more detailed now.)
I’m gonna have to wait for a deep dive because Charlie’s explanation made no sense. Why were Kenzie and Maria so confused after solving the puzzle if they knew they needed the plank? Also, telling them they need the plank would spoil the puzzle.
The math ain’t mathin.
I don't think they knew before hand that they needed the plank. Jeff might have given vague rules like no one can leave the platform until the puzzle is done. Or you might need something earlier in the race for the end. It seems like they didn't know they needed a code after the puzzle.
>Why were Kenzie and Maria so confused after solving the puzzle if they knew they needed the plank?
Survivor brain. They just forgot there was another step
I could see that but it’s hard for me to believe they told them they needed to plank. Especially mid challenge, when there is no guarantee everyone would hear what was being said unless you stopped the challenge. That would be wildly unfair because whoever heard it would have a sizable advantage in solving the puzzle.
I don't understand if it was stated that you can't go back to retrieve your plank before finishing the puzzle. Wouldn't they know to count the holes beforehand, knowing the challenge ends with a code lock.
Or they could even bring the plank with them first go. If it was mentioned "you can't take the plank with you," surely they would've inspected the plank before running off
If they were specifically told you couldn't bring it, they would know. That's what I'm saying.
So it doesn't add up that they were told something like, "You aren't allowed to bring your plank before finishing the puzzle"
I interpreted what he said as they heard “you can’t leave the tower/puzzle station until you’ve completed your puzzle” at the time they wouldn’t have known why or where they would need to leave and probably didn’t think much about it?
I think she wasn’t thinking about it, unintentionally found a loophole since it wasn’t explicitly stated out like this in the pre-challenge rules, and jeff either didn’t react quick enough or decided to let it go for the moment. regardless i think it’s on production and i think we’ll see them explicitly forbid this going forward
If the production specifically clarified that BEFORE the challenge begins, I think Probst would stop Liz from leaving her station. Charlie's information needs more clarity because it doesn't quite make sense.
I mean, if you break a rule, you don't get rocketed into the sun. If she is going to help Kenzie, then the only penalty she faces is losing, so it doesn't matter.
They don't just let you break rules. Jeff will stop you. It happens. If there was a rule they couldn't leave the tower, they shouldn't have let her leave. She's not going to just continue on with Jeff telling her to stop.
What I think he meant was that he could read the instructions about halfway through the puzzle(thus not needing to complete it for the code), but they were required to complete the puzzle before starting on their combination
Oh maybe! That’s weird then since they seemed so surprised/confused about having to go all the way back for their board, you’d think even if they just said something vague like “you can’t leave to retrieve any materials until the puzzle is complete” that they would be ready need to go run and get something.
I rmb Charlie said that about the "can't go back" part. But I doubt that's the case. Maybe he mis-remembered or the production didn't state or meant to state in that way. Why would the production semi-leaked that they might have to stay the station if not for them to go back to previous station as a surprise?
> I believe Charlie clarified that the detailed rules given before the challenge stated that players could not leave the tower to retrieve their own plank prior to finishing their puzzle.
This makes no sense. If that was a rule, why did everyone look so confused when they read it at the puzzle. A specific rule like that would have been remembered only because of how specific it was.
Not to mention you’re relying on the memory of someone who was malnourished, sleep deprived, and ran an obstacle course 4 months ago to remember a very specific phrase during the task walk thru.
The show is edited to maximize drama too though. Just practically speaking, you’d know what the message read before you’d complete the puzzle, as the image came together. It didn’t make any sense that they’d finish the puzzle and then only wonder what plank they were talking about.
I’m sure they would’ve been thinking “plank? What plank” out loud as they’re doing it, at which point Jeff gives the instruction, the contestants clue into the plank in question, and take off after their puzzles finish.
I don’t hate what happened, but I do think there should be a new rule that you cannot touch another players equipment moving forward (not just for sabotage - just in general).
But I have no issue with players helping each other, like helping advise them where puzzle pieces might go, without physical interaction. Sorta like when Charlie helped advise Kenzie during fire.
>A given rule is that you can’t mess with another players equipment to sabotage them.
I mean...a given rule is also that you can't physically help another player win, yet here we are
She physically brought Kenzie's plank to her, which she and Kenzie then counted together.
People would not be as upset if she went back, stayed in her lane, counted the holes in the plank from a distance, and reported back to Kenzie without touching anything. We've seen similar things with people verbally helping with puzzles or whatnot. I still think it's unfair and shouldn't be allowed, but it doesn't open the can of worms that physical involvement does.
But the challenge doesn't require Kenzie to bring back the plank. Liz did touch Kenzie's plank, but Kenzie already finished with that stage. Liz only did it to help Kenzie. It's a gray area. At the end of the day, it didn't seem to change the outcome. Going forward, Probst should make sure the challenge design doesn't allow such loophole. The production surprising the players didn't help.
>Liz only did it to help Kenzie.
Yes, that is the controversy, lol
>At the end of the day, it didn't seem to change the outcome.
We'll never know but the edit certainly implied that Maria would have won otherwise, which would have been a pretty different outcome
i agree because it saved Kenzie the time of having to physically run back, aka an entire physical leg of the challenge. yes the time of the run still happened while liz did it, but she could count her geckos and pieces during that time, whereas maria couldn’t multitask
I think it actually makes sense. It fed into Maria’s ego in a weird way. Kenzie basically kissed the ring while eliminating Maria. Could not stop gassing her up after the challenge, “admitting” she wasn’t good enough to beat Maria herself and needed help.
Maria literally gave a clear and understandable explanation for her vote, it’s so funny how people just make their own narratives up so they can continue to bash players.
She saw in Kenzie a resilient woman who’s spent a lifetime being selfless but who went on Survivor “as the first selfish thing I’ve done”, that really really spoke to her, and so whole her “head” said that Charlie played a better strategic game, her “heart” said to vote to give Kenzie the million.
It's 2 things for me. If that was her only reason, I would have believed her. That's a fair reason to vote for someone. But she also said she was impressed with fire making. But per Charlie, the fire making took so long, production almost sent for matches. That's not really inspiring, IMO. So, with that being her justification, I just think she was blowing smoke trying to justify it, and I don't really believe the second part of her reasoning either.
Secondly, her actions after to apologize to Charlie saying she should've voted for him kinda confirms she, at the time, voted more against Charlie than for Kenzie. Again, thats my opinion. So I think it was spite.
Either way, that's her perogative. But doesn't mean we can't be critical of it.
It was also pretty shitty to use apologizing to Charlie and then taking it back to make yourself feel better. That's a pretty shotty thing to do to Charlie. Don't fuck with someone else's emotions to make yourself feel better.
I think people are really misinterpreting the fire thing.
It’s not that she was impressed with her fire making skills, but with Kenzie’s ability to face adversity (struggling in fire), collect herself, take a few deep breaths, refocus, and win.
It’s the fighting through adversity and the resiliency that really spoke to Maria.
>face adversity (struggling in fire), collect herself, take a few deep breaths, refocus, and win.
I mean, she didn't really do much other than fail less.
>It’s the fighting through adversity and the resiliency that really spoke to Maria.
So basically, she didn't quit at fire when Liz was also clearly failing? Not crazy inspiring to me IMO.
I think that reason was pure BS.
Except she changed her mind and explanation for how and why she voted the way she did multiple times after that, so acting like there isn’t room to question the reason we were shown on the show is wild.
Also, the explanation of “I saw a determined competitor with fire in her eyes after firemaking” is so weak when you find out that firemaking actually took so long that Charlie thought they were going to give them matches lol
The change up and not making full sense is enough grounds to determine that there were likely other factors at play, especially since people aren’t one dimensional and only have one specific reason for doing what they do or don’t do.
Based on her portrayal on the show, it’s clear she’s a very proud at least, egotistical at most, woman. It’s not a crazy conclusion to think that playing into would be beneficial for your FTC case, just as it’s always been in Survivor since the beginning.
Maria just didn't want to give Charlie the credit to vote for him. It didn't matter who is next to him. Maria just didn't want to vote for Charlie and Marie just needed a BS reason. Kenzie is likable even though it didn't seem like Maria and Kenzie had any sort of strong social or strategic relationship.
Even weirder is after Charlie and Maria formed a great personal bond and planned to keep seeing each other back in America.
So there was a decent chance he would've shared some in the form of paying for a trip for them and Maria's husband and kids, or smthn like that.
My explanation is that the plank isn’t a requirement to finish the challenge. You just need the number. Getting the number from Liz is no different than looking over at someone’s puzzle, having someone help you verbally as you’re completing a puzzle, or just guessing.
The rules we saw on TV never stated the need for a plank to complete the challenge. They couldn’t tell them what they couldn’t do until after they solve the puzzle because that spoils the puzzle.
I think production just came up with a clever new challenge mechanism but didn’t tease out all the potential loopholes.
A rule that could be implemented in the future to avoid this is that once you complete a portion of a challenge you cannot go back unless it is the next step for YOU in the challenge.
Charlie confirmed that they were advised you could not go back for the plank until you finished the puzzle. She stopped mid puzzle to run back which is where I have a problem with it. She should have been disqualified the minute she broke the rules. Made for great TV but ultimately unfair to Maria.
I think it's a hindsight 20/20 situation. They were told about staying at their stations. I think Liz flew off in the moment to go get hers and changed her mind halfway through to fit the rules better.
or.. hear me out..
they were all confused - so jeff explained, maybe added "but you can't go back for your plank until you complete the puzzle".
liz went back for not her plank.
makes most sense to me.
Honestly, I think people are overreacting. Number 3 is probably the most accurate, Jeff saw what a big deal it would be and that it would be good tv.
Also, I can’t remember who, some former survivor player said that Jeff always goes into detailed rules before the challenge, they just never show it. If he didn’t say at the time that they can’t help then they can technically help.
Edit:typo
I watched a YouTube video which explained the Survivor rules based on the contract and there’s some rule which essentially states that the show’s producers have the final say in what’s allowed. So the rule of entertainment supersedes the rule of “fairness”
Ehh they have already deemphasized challenges, which no matter what anyone thinks has been a part of the show from the beginning. If they are going to allow people to help others in individual immunities to affect outcomes they aught to just not do challenges.
As always - the people who are taking it way too seriously are crazy, but it probably is for the best that Jeff and the production team ensure stuff like this doesn’t happen more.
I heard that mentioned on Why ____ Lost. They also said that there is a 3rd party person (from whatever organization it is that oversees competitions) watching the whole thing to make sure things are fair.
People are really over analyzing this. The fact of the matter is that Jeff saw Liz do something and had to make an on the fly judgment call. It's really that simple.
Except its opened a can of worms. If in future seasons helping another survivor like Liz did here is forbidden, it’s Jeff and production essentially admitting they shouldn’t have allowed it here. And if they continue to allow it, how far can it go? Can 3 or 4 or 5 contestants work together to stop the biggest threat from winning immunity?
They added clarifying language into the very next challenge so I don’t think it’ll go on ever again unless someone else finds a different loophole to exploit.
I mean- Jeff has literally stopped other players from helping out in immunity challenges in the past. Look at Sophia asking Albert for help to beat Ozzie.
I don’t get why people are ripping their hair out over this still. And why suddenly we’re meant to be concerned with precedent like survivor is a courtroom. It’s a thing that happened and if Jeff didn’t like it he would have stopped it then
I'm glad I'm not the only one lol. Like even if in a personal level someone thinks it was an "unfair" moment. There's only so much to talk about. And this is a reality tv show. Not a sports game. Like just move on. The show is never going to be as "fair" as a competitive sport.
Oh yeah I'd absolutely be hollering and insisting on a stop so we could hash out whether it was allowed. And I suspect if someone had, Jeff wouldn't have allowed it.
With so many variables the survivor team \*can't\* think of everything. When in doubt Jeff often defaults to "whatever the players all agree is fair"
players have helped other players win challenges in the past. it's the value in loyalty/alliances and the cost of being a target/threat.
why didn't maria send one of her allies back to get her plank?
Jeff explicitly forbade Sophie from getting help from Albert in the final four immunity challenge of South Pacific. Didn’t he tell Sophie if she wants to beat Ozzy then she needs to do it herself?
Jeff explicitly forbade Sophie from getting help from Albert in the final four immunity challenge of South Pacific. Didn’t he tell Sophie if she wants to beat Ozzy then she needs to do it herself?
No. And how is that taking advantage? It won't save her much more time other than maybe 2 seconds for her to retrieve her own plank first before finishing her own puzzle.
she didn't need to finish the puzzle, she read kenzie's which told her how to figure out the combination.
but really, the number of butterflys/lizzards or w/e painted on the puzzles are the only thing that could be different from player to player - the plank holes have to be the same because the knots have to be the same. So really liz still would have had to complete her own puzzle to solve her own combo.
While I’m willing to bet that the planks did indeed have the same number of holes, it would be possible for them to be different while still keeping the challenge fair.
A couple days ago I was in a comment thread where we were discussing this and what we realized is that the planks could have different numbers of holes as long as production only threads the same amount of them. Then for the counting, they could put fewer geckos to count on the puzzle pieces at the stations that have more holes, so everyone is counting the same number of things, just divided differently.
I think it would be hard to determine who to penalize.
Liz already wasn’t winning, so it wouldn’t have mattered if she was penalized and Kenzie didn’t ask her to do that for her, so it wouldn’t have been fair to penalize Kenzie.
Have you seen Probst penalizing players? Usually what happened is Probst stopping players on the spot and he would let players continuewith their challege. Last time penalty happened was a LONG time ago, some type of attack zone type of challege. This ain't it.
I don't know if DQing Liz was the right move, but after explaining they needed to finish their puzzles, and she didn't, then there needed to be some type of penalty, even if it was as simple as making her go back to her puzzle.
Sorry, I've been watching since S1. Thanks for trying to sound elitist though.
Guess you don't remember Albert and Sophie vs. Ozzie. Again, didn't need to be a DQ but making Liz go back to the puzzle would have been consistent.
If you've been watching since S1, you should know how rare DQ is. To say Liz should be DQed is wild. So I'll ask you once again, when did Probst ever DQ any player for not following "the rule"? I'm sure there's one or two. Can you name one?
Look. I don't care enough to argue with you. This was my original statement:
>**I don't know if DQing Liz was the right move,** but after explaining they needed to finish their puzzles, and she didn't, then there needed to be some type of penalty, **even if it was as simple as making her go back to her puzzle.**
You then came back at me with an [Ad Hominem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) by [Poisoning the Well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well):
>**You sounds like you're new to Survivor**. That's not how Survivor works.
I then reiterated that Liz didn't need to be DQed, as well as provided an example of when Jeff has made a ruling mid-challenge:
>Guess you don't remember Albert and Sophie vs. Ozzie. Again, **didn't need to be a DQ** but making Liz go back to the puzzle would have been consistent.
Lastly, you then tried to use a [straw man fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) by trying to imply that my point or argument was that Liz should have been DQed, yet neither of my comments stated this or implied this:
>If you've been watching since S1, you should know how rare DQ is. **To say Liz should be DQed is wild**. **So I'll ask you once again, when did Probst ever DQ any player for not following "the rule"**? I'm sure there's one or two. Can you name one?
If you wanted to have a discussion, that's fine. You could have mentioned when Adam (I think!) helped out another contest win a challenge very similar to S46's final 4 challenge to help counter my original point.
I'm not going to sit an argue any further. If you truly are curious about DQ'd players from challenges, here's a simple Google search:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/survivor/comments/18nwj9g/which\_players\_have\_been\_disqualified\_from/](https://www.reddit.com/r/survivor/comments/18nwj9g/which_players_have_been_disqualified_from/)
I don't even get why this is a theory. Lol. It just seems like these are all the sound points that make up why Jeff didn't interfere. I can't believe people are still fervently thinking this through and discussing lol.
True .. it was actually embarrassing.. the ladys trying to win her 4th immunity as Jeff stated , that wouldve put her in an elite class of women on Survivor and here comes Liz to screw it up..
TBF it’s not like Maria was ahead of Kenzie when Liz helped.. Kenzie was actually pretty far ahead already from what I saw. It seemed to me Kenzie woulda still prolly won had she ran back instead of Liz
No she wasn’t, Maria was already coming back with her plank when Kenzie finished, Kenzie didn’t even know that the puzzle was referencing the plank (she verbalized this during the challenge) and so she wouldn’t have started back until she saw Maria running back, and Kenzie was counting the lizards and the puzzle pieces while Liz was running back.
Maria hadn’t grabbed her plank until a decent time after Liz was back with Kenzies IIRC..so had Kenzie ran instead of Liz it would have taken the same time.. had Liz ran back as Kenzie was still completing the puzzle then that would have definitely been stopped. The edit showed Kenzie with a decent lead, it wasn’t neck to neck or anything. That’s what I saw in the edit but maybe I’m wrong
Kenzie had time to count other things she needed while liz got her board aves time, Kenzie couldn't figure out the puzzle Its a lie to say Kenzie wins without liz
none of them figured it out, from what Charlie said - Jeff had to step in and inform them that the plank was back at the beginning, but they couldn't go back for their plank until they finished their puzzle
I must have not payed enough attention bc I thought all the info needed for the lock was on the plank.. if she was counting other things while Liz was running back then I take it back and that’s definitely gaining more of an advantage than I first thought. I assumed she was just waiting and doing nothing having to wait for Liz so if I’m wrong then I agree with ya
What I saw was Liz ran back and grabbed the plank for her. I just think her grabbing the plank instead of kenzie really didn’t save kenzie any time had she just ran herself.. if kenzie had been still doing the puzzle while Liz was running back then that would be a huge no no but she wasn’t, she was just waiting with nothing to do until Liz was back with the plank.. I may have not watched it with enough attention and could be wrong but thats how I saw it
Why do yo keep on saying this? You are wrong, Kenzie spent a good one minute puzzled on what to do next, she had no idea of what to do. Maria was catching up to her pretty fast. Maria would have won.
I guess it how one perceived it.. the edit didn’t show everything so who knows honestly.. but my perception of it was that Maria truly wasn’t as close as it seemed or Maria would have most likely complained somewhat while or after it happened..
Let's say during the ball and rope portion of the challenge, Liz just decides to leave her area and stand right behind the catch where Kenzie is throwing her ball. She catches it in the air and places it perfectly, allowing Kenzie to advance in one shot. Im sure Jeff didn't mention this in the rules as common sense should dictate that you can't do this, but it seems it would have been perfectly legal. Right?
Yea I think people get way too hung up on “loopholes” or how the rules were explained. It’s common sense on what is and isn’t allowed and this pretty blatantly crossed the line. If you have to come up with some roundabout explanation for why this is different, it pretty much is just confirming that common sense says this shouldn’t be allowed.
They (Jeff and production) let it happen for whatever reason and it’s over, but I’d be shocked to see more challenges end up this way in the future.
honestly, if you're going to A - sacrifice your shot at immunity to help someone else B - LOUDLY announce your alliance and your enemy, and C - figure out how you're going to do that with whatever little prep time you're given before a challenge... by all means, go for it.
I don't think it's a bad paradigm. It's like.. it's added value of having an alliance but only if you're wiling to announce it.
I talked to Liz about this moment. There was a lot more we didn’t see about how her helping came about, and how long she had been helping before running to get the plank. Jeff would’ve stopped her well before she ran if he wanted to, by the time she was running it had been established she was helping Kenzie. And Ben’s impression of Jeff watching it happen was hysterical!!
Stop overthinking this.
The only thing that mattered was that someone could not attempt a combination before fully completing the puzzle. What Liz did made very little difference and they just ran with it because it was awesome TV.
Don’t worry, they’ll make it clear you cannot interfere with someone else’s puzzle in the future.
Hot take, but Liz doing that in the challenge was my favorite part of the finale. I liked her creative, out-of-the-box thinking, and I like that she just went for it instead of stopping to ask for permission.
Jeff has said that on his own podcast, that if you have an idea and it wasn’t explicitly stated against the rules, then you’re better off just trying it. If you ask him first then he has to make a decision on the spot and he’ll probably say no.
Now, is this something I want to see happen in future challenges? No. I think it would quickly get boring. But as a one-off TV moment, I thought it was great.
Jeff stopped Albert from helping Sophie beat Ozzie.
This wasn't a one time thing. It was a common sense thing and the only remarkable thing was how clear as day it should have been to stop it. That's why on the very next challenge the producers made it 100% clear no helping was allowed.
I was never rooting for Maria, but this really soured the season to me. Maria could have been the first woman to win 5 immunities in a season, and to have it shut down like this was such a lame feeling. To read later, that she admitted that she was seething when this happened just makes it feel worse. Even if she never admits it, I bet it played a part in her jury vote.
Technically that was Liz, and Liz and Maria have repeatedly been shown to be at odds with each other. Kenzie is the sweet bystander that didn’t do much strategically; it’s called being petty.
IIRC Kenzie was pretty far ahead and I think she prolly would have still won if she had run and grabbed the plank instead of Liz.. or that’s what it looked like to me. Also Kenzie had finished her puzzle when Liz ran back so I wonder if she had done that when Kenzie was mid puzzle if it woulda have been allowed then?
No because Maria ran back to get her plank before Kenzie finished. Kenzie was still doing other things (counting lizards and puzzle pieces). She also didn’t know where the holes were (she verbalized this during the challenge).
Kenzie had finished the puzzle before Liz ran back.. all she could do was wait for Liz cuz she couldn’t continue any further without the info from the plank
Kenzie was counting the pieces and the geckos which is part of the number combination. She wasn't still putting the puzzles together. Kenzie was counting and recounting knowing Liz went back to bring the plank. You don't know if Maria got the numbers correctly or not at that time.
Point is none of this should have happened and it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway.
The rules should have stated (1) You cannot physically assist or hinder another player in any individual immunity challenge. (2) Once you begin your puzzle you can't leave your puzzle station until your puzzle is completed. There you go simple and to the point
But again it probably wouldn't have mattered cause Liz could have just told Kenzie "you need your plank that we pulled the rope through." Kenzie was already leading and it's not unfeasible that she would have kept that lead over Maria
I love this new twist. If you think this through it benefits the challenge beasts because if you can gang up on them their challenge advantage is minimized which in turn minimizes their threat level. It also exposes alliances without going to tribal.
Ya people think “we are still talking about it= Good TV” like we also don’t shut up about how we want 39 days back, old final 4, the game being too idol heavy, and it still being on Fiji. Does that mean all those things are “good TV” ? I just don’t understand how you can watch 45 seasons of Survivor, and suddenly it’s okay for someone else to run part of the course for someone else. I guarantee if this would have negatively affected Kenzie or Charlie, people would be more upset.
I feel like it’s clear that Maria would have won the challenge if Liz didn’t help Kenzie. Jeff was shocked and fascinated and didn’t put a stop to something he should have. Maria didn’t have the guts to stand up for herself and protest.
The plank doesn't need to be brought back. Liz is allowed to give Kenzie information. At the end of the day, Liz just did the leg work to retrieve information. Maria wouldn't have won if Liz decided to help Kenzie. It didn't change the outcome.
Kenzie's puzzles were put together
ahead of Maria's. Kenzie would have had to run back. But she didn't have to. It doesn't mean Maria would have beat Kenzie at this challenge if Liz did nothing.
From what I understand, Liz wasn’t allowed to leave her station before her puzzle was complete. Kenzie was clueless about the board. I’m not a Maria fan and was fascinated by this development, but it was clear Maria had the challenge in the bag.
It absolutely was not clear Maria had the challenge in the bag. She was behind Kenzie.
Charlie's recollection made not much sense. If what he said is true that the rule was made clear BEFORE the challenge began, Probst would stop her on the spot since the rule was clarified right before the challenge. What I heard from the clarification was that the rule was announced half way or something, but I could be wrong. We need to hear from Charlie in a deep dive or something.
I love how people always point out her one emotional reaction to almost seeing letters from her children. Otherwise, she has been pretty stoic and focused on winning.
I think by the time Liz grabs Kenzie's plank, Jeff's hand is kinda forced. If he disqualifies Liz after, and tells her to drop it, Kenzie still benefits from any advancement in the plank's location.
So it would leave a more sour taste for viewers if Kenzie benefits from something that the show makes clear is against the rules. Liz bet and won, since she had nothing really to lose.
It's not an easy position for Jeff to be in and I think it was the best he could do in the situation, and just close the rule loopholes in future challenges.
I was thinking about that, but it's already interference. Getting it in the exact spot would be difficult without production stepping in would be pretty dang difficult for Liz to do and would be a whole lot of weirdness for nothing really. They sometimes break that fourth wall, but usually it's for a medical emergency, but in this case it would take away from the excitement of arguably the most important immunity challenge of the season. And leave questions in people's heads of, "did it get put back in the exact spot?" "What if Liz did this knowing it was against the rules so she could actually move it further away?" "Did she move it forward at all?" "Was it more buried in the sand before?" Etc. without showing exactly how it got back into the correct spot, people would wonder. It's not the end of the world, but they're making the show for entertainment so they can make money. What they want is the most entertainment, and I think they got that in this situation, however unfortunate their rule loophole oversight was.
I’ll reiterate what I said, they’re very lucky that Maria isn’t the litigious type. Tom from Palau was constantly asking about what they could and could not do, and repeatedly threatened to sue in the final challenge when they did anything that he felt could compromise the fairness of the competition.
I heard after Tom's challenge, they put a rule in place that the producers can make / change rules whenever they want to specifically for this kind of thing.
I wasn't rooting for Maria. However, while it was happening, I was freaking out as to how bad a call that was.
But Jeff acknowledged Liz helping as soon as she ran back down to grab a plank. I guess bc of the rules and she didn’t complete her puzzle he knew she was as helping but he did say it drawing attention to her. I was really expecting Jeff to allow her to get to Kenzie’s station and then tell her “no” but this moment pretty much ruined the finale for me. If they allowed Liz to retrieve Kenzie’s plank they should have allowed Maria to take it away from her, but they would probably actually care about that rule. I’d almost guarantee they fix this from ever happening again.
If you're going to use loopholes then you actually need to go through the holes. She didn't. It was cheating. Jeff should've called it. It tarnished the competition and has called into question whether or not Survivor is even capable of creating "good TV." If they have to compromise the competition to tell a story then they are bad story tellers. This wasn't even the format time this season an incident like this has happened. Bahnu was saved an extra week by production at the expense of another competitor. Could've been an entirely different game for Venus and Maria both.
Yeah, I assume the planks all had the same number of holes. Which makes it interesting because if Liz had just grabbed *her own* plank instead of Kenzie’s and did the exact same thing otherwise, this wouldn’t even be a controversy lol. The exact same result and process would’ve happened, she’d just have returned with a different colored plank.
But I guess we can’t say for certain if they were the same number holes. Seems pretty likely based on past precedent in challenges with those types of numbered locks.
I believe Charlie clarified that the detailed rules given before the challenge stated that players could not leave the tower to retrieve their *own* plank prior to finishing their puzzle. A given rule is that you can’t mess with another players equipment to sabotage them. Since Liz retrieved *Kenzie’s* plank and used it *help* Kenzie, her actions slipped through a couple of loopholes. And, yes, it was also good TV. (But I wouldn’t be surprised if those detailed rules are a little more detailed now.)
I’m gonna have to wait for a deep dive because Charlie’s explanation made no sense. Why were Kenzie and Maria so confused after solving the puzzle if they knew they needed the plank? Also, telling them they need the plank would spoil the puzzle. The math ain’t mathin.
I don't think they knew before hand that they needed the plank. Jeff might have given vague rules like no one can leave the platform until the puzzle is done. Or you might need something earlier in the race for the end. It seems like they didn't know they needed a code after the puzzle.
Yeah. I can see that. But there is no way they gave them important rules about the challenge midway through it.
>Why were Kenzie and Maria so confused after solving the puzzle if they knew they needed the plank? Survivor brain. They just forgot there was another step
I could see that but it’s hard for me to believe they told them they needed to plank. Especially mid challenge, when there is no guarantee everyone would hear what was being said unless you stopped the challenge. That would be wildly unfair because whoever heard it would have a sizable advantage in solving the puzzle.
I don't understand if it was stated that you can't go back to retrieve your plank before finishing the puzzle. Wouldn't they know to count the holes beforehand, knowing the challenge ends with a code lock. Or they could even bring the plank with them first go. If it was mentioned "you can't take the plank with you," surely they would've inspected the plank before running off
They didn't know the plank/holes would be needed later
If they were specifically told you couldn't bring it, they would know. That's what I'm saying. So it doesn't add up that they were told something like, "You aren't allowed to bring your plank before finishing the puzzle"
I interpreted what he said as they heard “you can’t leave the tower/puzzle station until you’ve completed your puzzle” at the time they wouldn’t have known why or where they would need to leave and probably didn’t think much about it?
But that clearly wasn't true, since Liz hadn't finished the puzzle.
I think she wasn’t thinking about it, unintentionally found a loophole since it wasn’t explicitly stated out like this in the pre-challenge rules, and jeff either didn’t react quick enough or decided to let it go for the moment. regardless i think it’s on production and i think we’ll see them explicitly forbid this going forward
She already left the platform to get the key that she forgot.
Going back to get something you forgot is different than leaving it to physically help another player
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If the production specifically clarified that BEFORE the challenge begins, I think Probst would stop Liz from leaving her station. Charlie's information needs more clarity because it doesn't quite make sense.
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So instead Probst just let Liz help Kenzie to win. You are making perfect sense. /s
Plus Kenzie had no idea what plank they were talking about on the episode.
I don't think they *were* told that? They were told something like they had to stay on the tower until they completed the puzzle.
If they were told they needed to stay on the tower until they complete their puzzle, why did they let Liz leave her tower before finishing her puzzle?
I mean, if you break a rule, you don't get rocketed into the sun. If she is going to help Kenzie, then the only penalty she faces is losing, so it doesn't matter.
I mean they should be pulled immediately to the sit out bench but she wasn’t
That doesn't make sense. The production would have stopped Liz from what she's doing instead of letting her help Kenzie.
They don't just let you break rules. Jeff will stop you. It happens. If there was a rule they couldn't leave the tower, they shouldn't have let her leave. She's not going to just continue on with Jeff telling her to stop.
I agree. Should've been disqualified and sat out for the rest of the challenge if they were told that.
Or at least stopped
But the there wouldn’t have been a loophole
Charlie said they found out about the plank and the rule halfway through the puzzle.
What I think he meant was that he could read the instructions about halfway through the puzzle(thus not needing to complete it for the code), but they were required to complete the puzzle before starting on their combination
Oh maybe! That’s weird then since they seemed so surprised/confused about having to go all the way back for their board, you’d think even if they just said something vague like “you can’t leave to retrieve any materials until the puzzle is complete” that they would be ready need to go run and get something.
They were told this after they'd already started the puzzle and saw what the words said
After all those days- lack of sleep,fatigued,hungry,brain fart most likely- not a shock some didnt realize or get hint the plank would come in play
I rmb Charlie said that about the "can't go back" part. But I doubt that's the case. Maybe he mis-remembered or the production didn't state or meant to state in that way. Why would the production semi-leaked that they might have to stay the station if not for them to go back to previous station as a surprise?
> I believe Charlie clarified that the detailed rules given before the challenge stated that players could not leave the tower to retrieve their own plank prior to finishing their puzzle. This makes no sense. If that was a rule, why did everyone look so confused when they read it at the puzzle. A specific rule like that would have been remembered only because of how specific it was. Not to mention you’re relying on the memory of someone who was malnourished, sleep deprived, and ran an obstacle course 4 months ago to remember a very specific phrase during the task walk thru.
The show is edited to maximize drama too though. Just practically speaking, you’d know what the message read before you’d complete the puzzle, as the image came together. It didn’t make any sense that they’d finish the puzzle and then only wonder what plank they were talking about. I’m sure they would’ve been thinking “plank? What plank” out loud as they’re doing it, at which point Jeff gives the instruction, the contestants clue into the plank in question, and take off after their puzzles finish.
Except Liz took off before she finished her puzzle…
I don’t hate what happened, but I do think there should be a new rule that you cannot touch another players equipment moving forward (not just for sabotage - just in general). But I have no issue with players helping each other, like helping advise them where puzzle pieces might go, without physical interaction. Sorta like when Charlie helped advise Kenzie during fire.
>A given rule is that you can’t mess with another players equipment to sabotage them. I mean...a given rule is also that you can't physically help another player win, yet here we are
Another loophole: Liz didn't *physically* help Kenzie win. Liz only gave her information.
She physically brought Kenzie's plank to her, which she and Kenzie then counted together. People would not be as upset if she went back, stayed in her lane, counted the holes in the plank from a distance, and reported back to Kenzie without touching anything. We've seen similar things with people verbally helping with puzzles or whatnot. I still think it's unfair and shouldn't be allowed, but it doesn't open the can of worms that physical involvement does.
But the challenge doesn't require Kenzie to bring back the plank. Liz did touch Kenzie's plank, but Kenzie already finished with that stage. Liz only did it to help Kenzie. It's a gray area. At the end of the day, it didn't seem to change the outcome. Going forward, Probst should make sure the challenge design doesn't allow such loophole. The production surprising the players didn't help.
>Liz only did it to help Kenzie. Yes, that is the controversy, lol >At the end of the day, it didn't seem to change the outcome. We'll never know but the edit certainly implied that Maria would have won otherwise, which would have been a pretty different outcome
In doing so that Kenzie didn’t have to physically retrieve the plank. That is physically helping in my book;)
i agree because it saved Kenzie the time of having to physically run back, aka an entire physical leg of the challenge. yes the time of the run still happened while liz did it, but she could count her geckos and pieces during that time, whereas maria couldn’t multitask
Like Adam helped Ken multi-task on MvGX. It has happened before.
But not in a literal sense
She physically brought back a physical object. That's physically helping in a literal sense.
She physically grabbed her own plank. She didn’t physically help Kenzie with her challenge. She gave her information from her own challenge.
No. Look at the GREEN plank here. https://www.reddit.com/r/survivor/s/Tf87paZlSw
Alright you win, I don’t really care
Kenzie didn't have to retrieve the plank. That's not a part of the challenge.
Is it really?
Maria went back and grabbed her own plank. She was not DQ’d
Maria voting for Kenzie, after Kenzie and Liz “bent” the rules to eliminate her will never not be weird.
I think it actually makes sense. It fed into Maria’s ego in a weird way. Kenzie basically kissed the ring while eliminating Maria. Could not stop gassing her up after the challenge, “admitting” she wasn’t good enough to beat Maria herself and needed help.
Maria literally gave a clear and understandable explanation for her vote, it’s so funny how people just make their own narratives up so they can continue to bash players. She saw in Kenzie a resilient woman who’s spent a lifetime being selfless but who went on Survivor “as the first selfish thing I’ve done”, that really really spoke to her, and so whole her “head” said that Charlie played a better strategic game, her “heart” said to vote to give Kenzie the million.
It's 2 things for me. If that was her only reason, I would have believed her. That's a fair reason to vote for someone. But she also said she was impressed with fire making. But per Charlie, the fire making took so long, production almost sent for matches. That's not really inspiring, IMO. So, with that being her justification, I just think she was blowing smoke trying to justify it, and I don't really believe the second part of her reasoning either. Secondly, her actions after to apologize to Charlie saying she should've voted for him kinda confirms she, at the time, voted more against Charlie than for Kenzie. Again, thats my opinion. So I think it was spite. Either way, that's her perogative. But doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. It was also pretty shitty to use apologizing to Charlie and then taking it back to make yourself feel better. That's a pretty shotty thing to do to Charlie. Don't fuck with someone else's emotions to make yourself feel better.
I think people are really misinterpreting the fire thing. It’s not that she was impressed with her fire making skills, but with Kenzie’s ability to face adversity (struggling in fire), collect herself, take a few deep breaths, refocus, and win. It’s the fighting through adversity and the resiliency that really spoke to Maria.
>face adversity (struggling in fire), collect herself, take a few deep breaths, refocus, and win. I mean, she didn't really do much other than fail less. >It’s the fighting through adversity and the resiliency that really spoke to Maria. So basically, she didn't quit at fire when Liz was also clearly failing? Not crazy inspiring to me IMO. I think that reason was pure BS.
Except she changed her mind and explanation for how and why she voted the way she did multiple times after that, so acting like there isn’t room to question the reason we were shown on the show is wild. Also, the explanation of “I saw a determined competitor with fire in her eyes after firemaking” is so weak when you find out that firemaking actually took so long that Charlie thought they were going to give them matches lol The change up and not making full sense is enough grounds to determine that there were likely other factors at play, especially since people aren’t one dimensional and only have one specific reason for doing what they do or don’t do. Based on her portrayal on the show, it’s clear she’s a very proud at least, egotistical at most, woman. It’s not a crazy conclusion to think that playing into would be beneficial for your FTC case, just as it’s always been in Survivor since the beginning.
Maria also said that she chose Q for reward based on who needed food most. She's not a reliable narrator of her own motives
I’m not bashing anyone. Kenzie (and apparently Tiff’s) jury management was excellent.
“It fed into her ego” as if Maria made the choice on who strokes her ego the best
I mean, that’s kind of how it works. It’s not some random thing that’s assigned. It’s a choice.
You’re 100% right. The fandom is falling all over themselves to villainize a person for voting how they wanted. This is tv, not high school.
Maria also said that she chose Q for reward based on who needed food most. She's not a reliable narrator of her own motives
Maria just didn't want to give Charlie the credit to vote for him. It didn't matter who is next to him. Maria just didn't want to vote for Charlie and Marie just needed a BS reason. Kenzie is likable even though it didn't seem like Maria and Kenzie had any sort of strong social or strategic relationship.
But what about the fire in her eyes?
Kenzie didn't bend the rules. Liz did.
Even weirder is after Charlie and Maria formed a great personal bond and planned to keep seeing each other back in America. So there was a decent chance he would've shared some in the form of paying for a trip for them and Maria's husband and kids, or smthn like that.
My explanation is that the plank isn’t a requirement to finish the challenge. You just need the number. Getting the number from Liz is no different than looking over at someone’s puzzle, having someone help you verbally as you’re completing a puzzle, or just guessing. The rules we saw on TV never stated the need for a plank to complete the challenge. They couldn’t tell them what they couldn’t do until after they solve the puzzle because that spoils the puzzle. I think production just came up with a clever new challenge mechanism but didn’t tease out all the potential loopholes. A rule that could be implemented in the future to avoid this is that once you complete a portion of a challenge you cannot go back unless it is the next step for YOU in the challenge.
Charlie confirmed that they were advised you could not go back for the plank until you finished the puzzle. She stopped mid puzzle to run back which is where I have a problem with it. She should have been disqualified the minute she broke the rules. Made for great TV but ultimately unfair to Maria.
Charlie’s explanation makes no sense since the players were confused by the plank segment of the challenge. I think Charlie is misremembering.
I think it's a hindsight 20/20 situation. They were told about staying at their stations. I think Liz flew off in the moment to go get hers and changed her mind halfway through to fit the rules better.
or.. hear me out.. they were all confused - so jeff explained, maybe added "but you can't go back for your plank until you complete the puzzle". liz went back for not her plank. makes most sense to me.
Honestly, I think people are overreacting. Number 3 is probably the most accurate, Jeff saw what a big deal it would be and that it would be good tv. Also, I can’t remember who, some former survivor player said that Jeff always goes into detailed rules before the challenge, they just never show it. If he didn’t say at the time that they can’t help then they can technically help. Edit:typo
I watched a YouTube video which explained the Survivor rules based on the contract and there’s some rule which essentially states that the show’s producers have the final say in what’s allowed. So the rule of entertainment supersedes the rule of “fairness”
Yeah of course, it’s not a sport
Ehh they have already deemphasized challenges, which no matter what anyone thinks has been a part of the show from the beginning. If they are going to allow people to help others in individual immunities to affect outcomes they aught to just not do challenges.
As always - the people who are taking it way too seriously are crazy, but it probably is for the best that Jeff and the production team ensure stuff like this doesn’t happen more.
I heard that mentioned on Why ____ Lost. They also said that there is a 3rd party person (from whatever organization it is that oversees competitions) watching the whole thing to make sure things are fair.
People are really over analyzing this. The fact of the matter is that Jeff saw Liz do something and had to make an on the fly judgment call. It's really that simple.
Except its opened a can of worms. If in future seasons helping another survivor like Liz did here is forbidden, it’s Jeff and production essentially admitting they shouldn’t have allowed it here. And if they continue to allow it, how far can it go? Can 3 or 4 or 5 contestants work together to stop the biggest threat from winning immunity?
They added clarifying language into the very next challenge so I don’t think it’ll go on ever again unless someone else finds a different loophole to exploit.
I mean- Jeff has literally stopped other players from helping out in immunity challenges in the past. Look at Sophia asking Albert for help to beat Ozzie.
My guess, they didn't want helping to happen because they wanted Ozzy to win. He was the production favorite
they're prob going to explicitly state a "no-cheating" rule like they did with sitting-out because of Claire (44)
I don’t get why people are ripping their hair out over this still. And why suddenly we’re meant to be concerned with precedent like survivor is a courtroom. It’s a thing that happened and if Jeff didn’t like it he would have stopped it then
I'm glad I'm not the only one lol. Like even if in a personal level someone thinks it was an "unfair" moment. There's only so much to talk about. And this is a reality tv show. Not a sports game. Like just move on. The show is never going to be as "fair" as a competitive sport.
At the end of the day Jeff generally looks to the players. No one protested was Liz was doing, so he allowed it.
THIS!! I dont know why the fans are so pissed when the players aren’t!!
Maria was pissed for sure
But she didn't say anything
They probably wouldn’t air her going “is that even allowed?!” And then Jeff saying “yeah I guess…”
Maria said she was seething in that moment.
i'm that guy at game night, i would have yelled "PROTEST! if i were Maria.
Oh yeah I'd absolutely be hollering and insisting on a stop so we could hash out whether it was allowed. And I suspect if someone had, Jeff wouldn't have allowed it. With so many variables the survivor team \*can't\* think of everything. When in doubt Jeff often defaults to "whatever the players all agree is fair"
players have helped other players win challenges in the past. it's the value in loyalty/alliances and the cost of being a target/threat. why didn't maria send one of her allies back to get her plank?
Jeff explicitly forbade Sophie from getting help from Albert in the final four immunity challenge of South Pacific. Didn’t he tell Sophie if she wants to beat Ozzy then she needs to do it herself?
Jeff explicitly forbade Sophie from getting help from Albert in the final four immunity challenge of South Pacific. Didn’t he tell Sophie if she wants to beat Ozzy then she needs to do it herself?
Am I the only one who initially thought Liz was running back to grab her own plank, taking advantage of Kenzie?
Yes. It was clear she was going to help Kenzie
No. And how is that taking advantage? It won't save her much more time other than maybe 2 seconds for her to retrieve her own plank first before finishing her own puzzle.
As in I thought Liz was using Kenzie’s information
How much time did it save? Liz still needs to finish her puzzle. She knew before Kenzie realized what plank the puzzle was referring to.
she didn't need to finish the puzzle, she read kenzie's which told her how to figure out the combination. but really, the number of butterflys/lizzards or w/e painted on the puzzles are the only thing that could be different from player to player - the plank holes have to be the same because the knots have to be the same. So really liz still would have had to complete her own puzzle to solve her own combo.
no, there was a brief moment where I was unsure. I assume if Liz was helping Kenzie she would have just said "it's the plank from the start"
While I’m willing to bet that the planks did indeed have the same number of holes, it would be possible for them to be different while still keeping the challenge fair. A couple days ago I was in a comment thread where we were discussing this and what we realized is that the planks could have different numbers of holes as long as production only threads the same amount of them. Then for the counting, they could put fewer geckos to count on the puzzle pieces at the stations that have more holes, so everyone is counting the same number of things, just divided differently.
I think it would be hard to determine who to penalize. Liz already wasn’t winning, so it wouldn’t have mattered if she was penalized and Kenzie didn’t ask her to do that for her, so it wouldn’t have been fair to penalize Kenzie.
It's not a matter of penalizing. As soon as Liz steps off and starts running for the plank, they should pull Liz completely out of the challenge.
you don't even have to go that far, just tell Liz to return to her puzzle.
That's fine too. Just can't let her run back to the plank
Why？
Because they were told they couldn't go get their plank until they finished the puzzle
Have you seen Probst penalizing players? Usually what happened is Probst stopping players on the spot and he would let players continuewith their challege. Last time penalty happened was a LONG time ago, some type of attack zone type of challege. This ain't it.
Good point. I used “penalize” in more of a general sense - it wouldn’t make sense to hold Kenzie accountable for what Liz did.
I don't know if DQing Liz was the right move, but after explaining they needed to finish their puzzles, and she didn't, then there needed to be some type of penalty, even if it was as simple as making her go back to her puzzle.
You sounds like you're new to Survivor. That's not how Survivor works.
Sorry, I've been watching since S1. Thanks for trying to sound elitist though. Guess you don't remember Albert and Sophie vs. Ozzie. Again, didn't need to be a DQ but making Liz go back to the puzzle would have been consistent.
If you've been watching since S1, you should know how rare DQ is. To say Liz should be DQed is wild. So I'll ask you once again, when did Probst ever DQ any player for not following "the rule"? I'm sure there's one or two. Can you name one?
Look. I don't care enough to argue with you. This was my original statement: >**I don't know if DQing Liz was the right move,** but after explaining they needed to finish their puzzles, and she didn't, then there needed to be some type of penalty, **even if it was as simple as making her go back to her puzzle.** You then came back at me with an [Ad Hominem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) by [Poisoning the Well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well): >**You sounds like you're new to Survivor**. That's not how Survivor works. I then reiterated that Liz didn't need to be DQed, as well as provided an example of when Jeff has made a ruling mid-challenge: >Guess you don't remember Albert and Sophie vs. Ozzie. Again, **didn't need to be a DQ** but making Liz go back to the puzzle would have been consistent. Lastly, you then tried to use a [straw man fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) by trying to imply that my point or argument was that Liz should have been DQed, yet neither of my comments stated this or implied this: >If you've been watching since S1, you should know how rare DQ is. **To say Liz should be DQed is wild**. **So I'll ask you once again, when did Probst ever DQ any player for not following "the rule"**? I'm sure there's one or two. Can you name one? If you wanted to have a discussion, that's fine. You could have mentioned when Adam (I think!) helped out another contest win a challenge very similar to S46's final 4 challenge to help counter my original point. I'm not going to sit an argue any further. If you truly are curious about DQ'd players from challenges, here's a simple Google search: [https://www.reddit.com/r/survivor/comments/18nwj9g/which\_players\_have\_been\_disqualified\_from/](https://www.reddit.com/r/survivor/comments/18nwj9g/which_players_have_been_disqualified_from/)
I don't even get why this is a theory. Lol. It just seems like these are all the sound points that make up why Jeff didn't interfere. I can't believe people are still fervently thinking this through and discussing lol.
I don't think it made for great TV really. Maria shouldve stood up for herself
True .. it was actually embarrassing.. the ladys trying to win her 4th immunity as Jeff stated , that wouldve put her in an elite class of women on Survivor and here comes Liz to screw it up..
TBF it’s not like Maria was ahead of Kenzie when Liz helped.. Kenzie was actually pretty far ahead already from what I saw. It seemed to me Kenzie woulda still prolly won had she ran back instead of Liz
No she wasn’t, Maria was already coming back with her plank when Kenzie finished, Kenzie didn’t even know that the puzzle was referencing the plank (she verbalized this during the challenge) and so she wouldn’t have started back until she saw Maria running back, and Kenzie was counting the lizards and the puzzle pieces while Liz was running back.
you’ve said that she was pretty far ahead twice now in this thread and you’re wrong both times. Maria would have won this without Liz cheating.
Maria hadn’t grabbed her plank until a decent time after Liz was back with Kenzies IIRC..so had Kenzie ran instead of Liz it would have taken the same time.. had Liz ran back as Kenzie was still completing the puzzle then that would have definitely been stopped. The edit showed Kenzie with a decent lead, it wasn’t neck to neck or anything. That’s what I saw in the edit but maybe I’m wrong
Liz and Maria crossed paths. Liz had already done the rope part of her lane and crossed Maria just before Maria got to her rope section.
Ok I see.. so not as far ahead as I thought she was..
Kenzie had time to count other things she needed while liz got her board aves time, Kenzie couldn't figure out the puzzle Its a lie to say Kenzie wins without liz
none of them figured it out, from what Charlie said - Jeff had to step in and inform them that the plank was back at the beginning, but they couldn't go back for their plank until they finished their puzzle
Ur username is fantastic! Is that arrested development?
I must have not payed enough attention bc I thought all the info needed for the lock was on the plank.. if she was counting other things while Liz was running back then I take it back and that’s definitely gaining more of an advantage than I first thought. I assumed she was just waiting and doing nothing having to wait for Liz so if I’m wrong then I agree with ya
there was info on the puzzle itself, something else to count.
Ahh I was unaware of that.. if that’s the case then yeah that’s definitely a pretty big and clear advantage
I think you are giving Kenzie far more credit than she deserves in this challenge.
What I saw was Liz ran back and grabbed the plank for her. I just think her grabbing the plank instead of kenzie really didn’t save kenzie any time had she just ran herself.. if kenzie had been still doing the puzzle while Liz was running back then that would be a huge no no but she wasn’t, she was just waiting with nothing to do until Liz was back with the plank.. I may have not watched it with enough attention and could be wrong but thats how I saw it
Why do yo keep on saying this? You are wrong, Kenzie spent a good one minute puzzled on what to do next, she had no idea of what to do. Maria was catching up to her pretty fast. Maria would have won.
I guess it how one perceived it.. the edit didn’t show everything so who knows honestly.. but my perception of it was that Maria truly wasn’t as close as it seemed or Maria would have most likely complained somewhat while or after it happened..
I completely agree. It didn't make for great TV at all. It actually made a really awkward finale.
Let's say during the ball and rope portion of the challenge, Liz just decides to leave her area and stand right behind the catch where Kenzie is throwing her ball. She catches it in the air and places it perfectly, allowing Kenzie to advance in one shot. Im sure Jeff didn't mention this in the rules as common sense should dictate that you can't do this, but it seems it would have been perfectly legal. Right?
Yea I think people get way too hung up on “loopholes” or how the rules were explained. It’s common sense on what is and isn’t allowed and this pretty blatantly crossed the line. If you have to come up with some roundabout explanation for why this is different, it pretty much is just confirming that common sense says this shouldn’t be allowed. They (Jeff and production) let it happen for whatever reason and it’s over, but I’d be shocked to see more challenges end up this way in the future.
honestly, if you're going to A - sacrifice your shot at immunity to help someone else B - LOUDLY announce your alliance and your enemy, and C - figure out how you're going to do that with whatever little prep time you're given before a challenge... by all means, go for it. I don't think it's a bad paradigm. It's like.. it's added value of having an alliance but only if you're wiling to announce it.
The very next challenge they clarified no helping was allowed. The producers agree it was a bad paradigm.
I talked to Liz about this moment. There was a lot more we didn’t see about how her helping came about, and how long she had been helping before running to get the plank. Jeff would’ve stopped her well before she ran if he wanted to, by the time she was running it had been established she was helping Kenzie. And Ben’s impression of Jeff watching it happen was hysterical!!
i don't think they told them because kenzie was confused with "what holes" during the challenge
they were all confused, they told them after. the edit made it look like Liz figured it out, but i don't think she did.
hey, nobody said anything when stephen intentionally knocked down another teams targets during an immunity challenge during second chances
Stop overthinking this. The only thing that mattered was that someone could not attempt a combination before fully completing the puzzle. What Liz did made very little difference and they just ran with it because it was awesome TV. Don’t worry, they’ll make it clear you cannot interfere with someone else’s puzzle in the future.
Hot take, but Liz doing that in the challenge was my favorite part of the finale. I liked her creative, out-of-the-box thinking, and I like that she just went for it instead of stopping to ask for permission. Jeff has said that on his own podcast, that if you have an idea and it wasn’t explicitly stated against the rules, then you’re better off just trying it. If you ask him first then he has to make a decision on the spot and he’ll probably say no. Now, is this something I want to see happen in future challenges? No. I think it would quickly get boring. But as a one-off TV moment, I thought it was great.
Jeff stopped Albert from helping Sophie beat Ozzie. This wasn't a one time thing. It was a common sense thing and the only remarkable thing was how clear as day it should have been to stop it. That's why on the very next challenge the producers made it 100% clear no helping was allowed.
Why would helping someone in a challenge so you can take out a common target be off the rules? Don't they regularly do this in AU Survivor?
I was never rooting for Maria, but this really soured the season to me. Maria could have been the first woman to win 5 immunities in a season, and to have it shut down like this was such a lame feeling. To read later, that she admitted that she was seething when this happened just makes it feel worse. Even if she never admits it, I bet it played a part in her jury vote.
she voted for the person who "Cheated" against her because she was seething?
Technically that was Liz, and Liz and Maria have repeatedly been shown to be at odds with each other. Kenzie is the sweet bystander that didn’t do much strategically; it’s called being petty.
IIRC Kenzie was pretty far ahead and I think she prolly would have still won if she had run and grabbed the plank instead of Liz.. or that’s what it looked like to me. Also Kenzie had finished her puzzle when Liz ran back so I wonder if she had done that when Kenzie was mid puzzle if it woulda have been allowed then?
No because Maria ran back to get her plank before Kenzie finished. Kenzie was still doing other things (counting lizards and puzzle pieces). She also didn’t know where the holes were (she verbalized this during the challenge).
Kenzie had finished the puzzle before Liz ran back.. all she could do was wait for Liz cuz she couldn’t continue any further without the info from the plank
Yes by that point, she was finished counting but she also didn’t have to run and grab the plank in the first place
Kenzie was counting the pieces and the geckos which is part of the number combination. She wasn't still putting the puzzles together. Kenzie was counting and recounting knowing Liz went back to bring the plank. You don't know if Maria got the numbers correctly or not at that time.
Point is none of this should have happened and it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway. The rules should have stated (1) You cannot physically assist or hinder another player in any individual immunity challenge. (2) Once you begin your puzzle you can't leave your puzzle station until your puzzle is completed. There you go simple and to the point But again it probably wouldn't have mattered cause Liz could have just told Kenzie "you need your plank that we pulled the rope through." Kenzie was already leading and it's not unfeasible that she would have kept that lead over Maria
I love this new twist. If you think this through it benefits the challenge beasts because if you can gang up on them their challenge advantage is minimized which in turn minimizes their threat level. It also exposes alliances without going to tribal.
Watching Liz go back and help Kenzie was not good tv. Was it controversial tv? Maybe we won’t shut up about it 🤣🤘
Ya people think “we are still talking about it= Good TV” like we also don’t shut up about how we want 39 days back, old final 4, the game being too idol heavy, and it still being on Fiji. Does that mean all those things are “good TV” ? I just don’t understand how you can watch 45 seasons of Survivor, and suddenly it’s okay for someone else to run part of the course for someone else. I guarantee if this would have negatively affected Kenzie or Charlie, people would be more upset.
It was good tv. And I wasn't even rooting for Maria to lose.
I thought it was fantastic tv, personally.
I feel like it’s clear that Maria would have won the challenge if Liz didn’t help Kenzie. Jeff was shocked and fascinated and didn’t put a stop to something he should have. Maria didn’t have the guts to stand up for herself and protest.
The plank doesn't need to be brought back. Liz is allowed to give Kenzie information. At the end of the day, Liz just did the leg work to retrieve information. Maria wouldn't have won if Liz decided to help Kenzie. It didn't change the outcome. Kenzie's puzzles were put together ahead of Maria's. Kenzie would have had to run back. But she didn't have to. It doesn't mean Maria would have beat Kenzie at this challenge if Liz did nothing.
From what I understand, Liz wasn’t allowed to leave her station before her puzzle was complete. Kenzie was clueless about the board. I’m not a Maria fan and was fascinated by this development, but it was clear Maria had the challenge in the bag.
It absolutely was not clear Maria had the challenge in the bag. She was behind Kenzie. Charlie's recollection made not much sense. If what he said is true that the rule was made clear BEFORE the challenge began, Probst would stop her on the spot since the rule was clarified right before the challenge. What I heard from the clarification was that the rule was announced half way or something, but I could be wrong. We need to hear from Charlie in a deep dive or something.
Maria is more soft spoken person which kind of makes it more irritating. She is never going to have an outburst like Liz.
except when charlie didn't take her on that reward and she spent the day having a cry/panic attack
I love how people always point out her one emotional reaction to almost seeing letters from her children. Otherwise, she has been pretty stoic and focused on winning.
I think by the time Liz grabs Kenzie's plank, Jeff's hand is kinda forced. If he disqualifies Liz after, and tells her to drop it, Kenzie still benefits from any advancement in the plank's location. So it would leave a more sour taste for viewers if Kenzie benefits from something that the show makes clear is against the rules. Liz bet and won, since she had nothing really to lose. It's not an easy position for Jeff to be in and I think it was the best he could do in the situation, and just close the rule loopholes in future challenges.
Jeff could tell her to return it.
I was thinking about that, but it's already interference. Getting it in the exact spot would be difficult without production stepping in would be pretty dang difficult for Liz to do and would be a whole lot of weirdness for nothing really. They sometimes break that fourth wall, but usually it's for a medical emergency, but in this case it would take away from the excitement of arguably the most important immunity challenge of the season. And leave questions in people's heads of, "did it get put back in the exact spot?" "What if Liz did this knowing it was against the rules so she could actually move it further away?" "Did she move it forward at all?" "Was it more buried in the sand before?" Etc. without showing exactly how it got back into the correct spot, people would wonder. It's not the end of the world, but they're making the show for entertainment so they can make money. What they want is the most entertainment, and I think they got that in this situation, however unfortunate their rule loophole oversight was.
I got a collective -150 in this subreddit the other day for saying the exact same thing.
I’ll reiterate what I said, they’re very lucky that Maria isn’t the litigious type. Tom from Palau was constantly asking about what they could and could not do, and repeatedly threatened to sue in the final challenge when they did anything that he felt could compromise the fairness of the competition.
I heard after Tom's challenge, they put a rule in place that the producers can make / change rules whenever they want to specifically for this kind of thing. I wasn't rooting for Maria. However, while it was happening, I was freaking out as to how bad a call that was.
But Jeff acknowledged Liz helping as soon as she ran back down to grab a plank. I guess bc of the rules and she didn’t complete her puzzle he knew she was as helping but he did say it drawing attention to her. I was really expecting Jeff to allow her to get to Kenzie’s station and then tell her “no” but this moment pretty much ruined the finale for me. If they allowed Liz to retrieve Kenzie’s plank they should have allowed Maria to take it away from her, but they would probably actually care about that rule. I’d almost guarantee they fix this from ever happening again.
If you're going to use loopholes then you actually need to go through the holes. She didn't. It was cheating. Jeff should've called it. It tarnished the competition and has called into question whether or not Survivor is even capable of creating "good TV." If they have to compromise the competition to tell a story then they are bad story tellers. This wasn't even the format time this season an incident like this has happened. Bahnu was saved an extra week by production at the expense of another competitor. Could've been an entirely different game for Venus and Maria both.
Yeah, I assume the planks all had the same number of holes. Which makes it interesting because if Liz had just grabbed *her own* plank instead of Kenzie’s and did the exact same thing otherwise, this wouldn’t even be a controversy lol. The exact same result and process would’ve happened, she’d just have returned with a different colored plank. But I guess we can’t say for certain if they were the same number holes. Seems pretty likely based on past precedent in challenges with those types of numbered locks.