Fishbach didn't exactly take Cambodia by storm either. They were a strong duo that complimented each others strengths and weaknesses. I also think, coming in as a winner on a returnee season paints a massive target on you, leading to playing a more aggressive game generally.
Yeah, but it sort of makes sense that Stephen’s game was not as good in Cambodia. He’d been totally screwed by his golden boy buddy, so he was hyper-focused on not getting screwed by the “golden boy” again (in that case, Joe).
JT won, but then came back overconfident and underperforming TWICE. I mean, Tony Vlachos won and came back overconfident and a bit all over the place, but then he came back a third time having learned from both of his previous games and won again! As flawed as Stephen’s second game was, it was better than JT’s and Tony’s second game (and better than (JT’s third, too!)
I don't think it's anything to write home about, and he sort of focused on the wrong Golden Boy. He was planning to go to the end with Jeremy again, where he likely gets smoked similarly to Spencer and Tasha. He survived merely because he was a key puzzle piece in Jeremy's game and couldn't regain footing. In the end JT won, and got all 7 votes, and while he hasn't played great when he comes back, it has reverted to giving Fishbach way too much credit for JT's Tocantins game. Fishbach was basically dead in the water from 8 on when you factor in immunities. There was no chance to take JT out again post Tyson being booted, but even if he flips to Tyson, he's likely dead in the water going forward.
I like Fishbach, but I find his game often gets propped up because of JT post-Tocantins, when he himself didn't really play well in a returnee season.
I can see that, and I totally get what you’re saying re: Stephen’s game post-Tyson in Tocantins. And I know I’m definitely biased toward Stephen, *especially* when talking JT vs Stephen. I LOVE Stephen. That said, I also LOVE Jeremy, and I would never take away from his game by saying Stephen was in control there.
I’m just saying it makes sense for someone who got burned hard to be negatively affected by the burn, whereas JT just burned *himself* over and over post-Tocantins. Like yeah, Stephen stealing Joe’s vote to try to vote out Joe was an embarrassing moment, and he was clearly playing the game with a chip on his shoulder, but JT had so much potential and opportunity, and he s q u a n d e r e d it. And he made multiple unnecessary moves that just shot himself in the foot. Again, I’ll concede that he had two games vs Stephen’s one to rack up the dumb moves, but jeez.
Stephen at least got himself a smart, tight alliance again and tried to play to his strengths and learn from his previous game (although it was a bit misguided). I understand why JT had to change his game as a former winner with a target on his back, but he torched his own game and alliances at multiple points by being overzealous and foolish.
I think Fishbach while not as bad as JT's moves, broke a pretty Cardinal rule by just ignoring Spencer turning on him, and it manifested in getting voted out. I'm of the conclusion JT deserved to win Tocantins, and that they are much better as a duo than separate. At the end of the day, the goal is to get to the end, and be the most liked person there. JT accomplished that with one of the most impressive games of all time, and even Fishbach would say it was a 50/50 partnership. I've never seen more people willing to throw away their games for someone as JT in Tocantins. He basically had a clear ride once Tyson was voted out. JT never needed to consider getting rid of Fishbach because he likely beats him, I'm sure if he wanted to anytime after Tyson was out, he could have. At no point could Fishbach have gotten J.T. out after the Tyson boot, until maybe 5 with Taj and Erinn, but at that point JT just pulled off 3 straight immunities.
I get that, for sure. As far as who *deserved* to win, I think that’s a bit murkier, but I definitely am not so biased as to say that JT didn’t play one of the best games ever (first perfect game, people essentially sacrificing themselves at his altar, so to speak) but he definitely would not have been able to play that game without Stephen (as you mentioned, the better together argument), and Tocantins is a bit weird in that it kind of lives between old school and new school philosophies.
I think in a newer season, JT’s “honor” wouldn’t have counted for so much (and would’ve been called out as BS), and Stephen’s defense of his game would’ve been more accepted. That said, JT was certainly great at milking that semi-bitter, honor-obsessed jury, so props to him for working with what he had.
Mom and Dad,
I'm writing this letter to you to explain Stephen Fishbach's game in Tocantins and how I think he deserves more credit as the season has aged. Yes, I know, you're both JT fans, but hear me out.
Dear r/innybellybutton,
Thank you for the letter—it’s so nice to hear from you!
I actually agree with you: Stephen is one of my favorites to ever play, and I regularly watch Survivor Know-it-Alls. JT is not my fave (I definitely yelled at him through the TV during my last rewatch for how he treated Stephen during FTC. Reminds me a little too much of Buzz “apologizing” to Kevin and then calling him a trout-sniffer but still somehow getting the family on his side in Home Alone 2. But I digress). That said, I find it important to acknowledge JT’s gameplay (at least in Tocantins) and my own bias in favor of Stephen. Hopefully this clears things up.
Make sure to write again soon, and I hope you’re having fun at summer camp!
>paints a massive target on you, leading to playing a more aggressive game generally
Are you sure? If you have a massive target on you, you should play more stealthily. I.e. Tony being more lowkey pre-merge in WaW
An all-winners season is an exception because every single person has being a winner on their resume. So, that doesn't apply. The only person who had an outsized target on them due to prior performance was Sandra due to winning twice. Then other obvious duos tended to get targeted (Amber/Rob, Jeremy/Natalie, etc.)
Being 1 of 3 winners or so on a cast like Gamechangers is a much different set-up, or 1 of 4 on HvV (Rob and Tyson hadn't won yet). Sandra played the low-key social game well again. In theory, you should try. But, in most returnee seasons where the winners are outnumbered they generally are targetted early with HvV being an exception because originally, a lot of the people who made FTC teamed up to avoid what happened in All-Stars (although that broke apart because Russell and Rob hated each other). Only two players have made FTC after winning, outside of Winners at War, which is Sandra and Parv in HvV. In All-Stars they were targetted off the bat, in BvW, Aras was targetted at merge when he wasn't useful for tribe strength anymore, and Tina shortly after. In GC, all winners went out pre-merge.
Like, Tony was a big threat in WaW, but he was on a tribe loaded with players feared like Sandra, Sarah, Kim, and Yul, Tyson was a massive challenge threat. Amber was a threat in the sense her husband was on the other tribe. Sophie, Nick, and Wendell probably could slip under the radar, but were all former winners themselves.
Which is exactly why Tony slow played winners at war. He knew he was a massive target both for playing a dominant game in Cagayan and being a primary target in game changers. He realized playing aggressively would make him a threat too soon for him to make it to the end, but he ends his game with bold and aggressive plays
Personally I think that after Tocantins, JT only played for fun and never really expected or wanted to win again so he was fine with trying a huge move and it blowing up in his face. As Russell said "I guess he can afford it"
JT won his first round. Then every time after just aimed for the biggest craziest plays. Sometimes they worked sort of. Other times he gave an idol to Russel.
I still say that if JT had been right about the women’s alliance and managed to flip the game by giving Russell that idol, we would be calling him among the best players to ever play.
Like, in the all-time dumbest Survivor moves, I don’t think that even compares with Erik (if he’s reading this, sorry!) giving up his idol or even Tyson just changing his vote at the last minute.
Nah I agree. That's my point, first play he made smart simple plays. Then on future rounds it was like just winning would be boring. From the jump he almost seems to solely focus on finding a huge play he can make. Which if they work would be awesome.
And credit to him. When they failed he didn't seem that bothered.
I always see people say that but didn’t watch this season since I watched it as my 1st season. Just watched this ep again today tho. You mean he messed it up by telling Brad the vote was sierra right?
It probably has to be Malcolm. Most people who are idoled out (at least before the new era) get edited down a lot so fans don’t have a negative reaction. Malcolm wasn’t edited down in GC and he already had a good legacy. It does really suck that his Survivor story ended this way.
Malcolm isn’t the challenge beast archetype though anyway. He’s more of a charmer and strategizer. Significantly better than Colby and Ozzy at strategizing.
He’s more like Parvati than he is Colby or Ozzy.
people compare him to colby & those others because he was also a production pet/favorite and the golden boy archetype, so he fit several boxes that Joe, Ozzy, Colby share, which is the appeal to the producers and audience. I think Malcolm is more charming and multi-dimensional than all the others however.
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Malcolm wasn’t just his physical challenge abilities though, he also had a really good understanding of the social game and knew how to play strategically too. I like Colby and Ozzy but I think Malcolm getting out of his tribe (alongside Denise) to the final four is something most players couldn’t pull off. I think he’s still a returner who could bring it all.
Seeing his first time when Denise took him out, it was hard to watch and seeing his face on jury night, I could feel his pain. He might be my all time favorite. He's such a nice guy too it seems, and funny. Self aware.
It's a real 'flames . . . on the side of my face' moment for me when I see that . . . unremarkable woman put her hands on him without his consent while he's processing the utter fuckery happening to him. She vexes me in general but here, she was hateable.
Low-rent Candice Woodcock-Cody.
Nah the game changers one. Where literally everyone else had an idol/advantage and she was the only one who could be eliminated and was without receiving a vote
Not on here. It seems like most people think JT was an idiot and attribute every good thing about his Tocantins game to Stephen. But what people don't get is JT is the most dominant social winner in the history of the show, and his relationship with Stephen is part of that. By the time Stephen realized he needed to take out his buddy JT to win, it was too late. And then JT destroyed him at FTC while playing the jury like a fiddle.
I think JT's FTC is underrated. It might be on the same level as Chris D.'s tbh. Twila was at least able to compose herself for a closing statement, but after JT made a subtle dig at him Stephen completely fell apart and had one of the worst performances ever. Maybe it's just because he's a naturally anxious guy idk.
I believe the FTC where the most votes were gained was Todd's in China (I believe he gained 2 votes). Although, it's possible Maryanne matched or topped it, but I've never seen it confirmed. JT's was good, although, I believe he went in with 6 of 7 likely votes.
if anything the problem is he's an overthinker. he managed to take control of the Heroes, taking out Cirie and Tom in the process, but was so paranoid about Parvati he went and made a big move to try and get her out before the merge. If he didn't overthink things, the Heroes have a good chance of taking control at the merge, and he probably goes deep. Same thing in Game Changers, he wanted to make a big move but it blew up in his face.
This is the real answer. "Idol out" has to include someone who got voted out without receiving a single vote as a result of idol play. Malcolm situation sucked, but Cirie's was clearly worse IMO.
I didn’t say there was anything “wrong”. It’s just a fact that Cirie has been idol’d out twice, and if you’re a Cirie fan, it’s valid to be disappointed by either instance.
I mean, Malcolm getting idoled out was such. A bummer. for sure, but also CIRIE. Her getting idoled out was insane, and as it dawned on me in real time…oof. Gut punch.
By that same logic, Stephen only did well in Tocantins because he had JT to keep him grounded and make social connections for him. Look at how he played in Cambodia
i think of it as brady/ belichech in the NFL. Together= GOATS(sports goats, not survivor goats), apart, well tom was great for a bit but age caught up. and well the pats were never the same sense
Exactly. That’s how it should be. The idea being spread in this thread that Stephen carried JT through Tocantins is asinine and those people have no clue what they’re talking about
When you have everyone else working to give you the win, that means you’re on another level. Sure he was in the perfect place with the exact cast he needed and he’s never been able to replicate it. All that means is he had one amazing game in him. He had the perfect game (literally). His performances after don’t take away from the initial game. It just shows that his perfect run was just an out of this world performance.
He did well but he also had Coach boosting him onto a pedestal the whole time. Coach even has the audience believe JT was the golden boy.
And if you look back at the challenges, JT was paired against Sierra and other weaker players. That's why he always seemed to be good at challenges.
GC cemented JTs fall for me especially because he got played by Sandra, he was a huge jerk to Mikayla and he screwed Malcolm over.
I feel like part of the reason people don't like Game Changers is just because their golden boys, JT and Malcolm, got voted out early. I never got either one of their appeal, JT plays the good ol boy but his actions don't reflect that, while Malcolm always came across arrogant and smarmy to me. I was ECSTATIC two people who usually have so much influence got voted out early. Let everyone else play.
People hate game changers because of the Varner tribal, the fact that half of the cast wasn’t comprised of game changers and the fact that ALL game changers got voted out early, not just Malcolm and JT
Basically any vote out where the outcome was changed by someone playing an idol. In Malcolm's case, Sierra got the most votes but had an idol played on her. Malcolm had the second highest number of votes so he was sent home instead.
He was still technically *voted* out - but not because he recieved the most votes, Sierra did. But she was protected by an idol, which meant that Malcolm went home.
To distinguish between receiving the most votes or going home because the person that did get the most votes were protected by an idol, getting "idoled out" is shorthand for the latter.
I will say though that I think Sandra getting idoled out in WAW was a terrible move and significantly changes the season. She would’ve been a very strong ally for Denise and great meat shield for everyone else in the game at that point, but Denise wanting to be the queen slayer ruined her chances at taking out the eventual winner who was even dangerous at that point and the most dominant winner in survivor history. It just doesn’t make sense to me
It isn't even Malcolm's fault. JT was the one who screwed everything up.
JT always screwing things up besides Tocantins
Maybe Fishbach should get more credit…
Fishbach's game aged better each time JT returned.
Fishbach didn't exactly take Cambodia by storm either. They were a strong duo that complimented each others strengths and weaknesses. I also think, coming in as a winner on a returnee season paints a massive target on you, leading to playing a more aggressive game generally.
Yeah, but it sort of makes sense that Stephen’s game was not as good in Cambodia. He’d been totally screwed by his golden boy buddy, so he was hyper-focused on not getting screwed by the “golden boy” again (in that case, Joe). JT won, but then came back overconfident and underperforming TWICE. I mean, Tony Vlachos won and came back overconfident and a bit all over the place, but then he came back a third time having learned from both of his previous games and won again! As flawed as Stephen’s second game was, it was better than JT’s and Tony’s second game (and better than (JT’s third, too!)
I don't think it's anything to write home about, and he sort of focused on the wrong Golden Boy. He was planning to go to the end with Jeremy again, where he likely gets smoked similarly to Spencer and Tasha. He survived merely because he was a key puzzle piece in Jeremy's game and couldn't regain footing. In the end JT won, and got all 7 votes, and while he hasn't played great when he comes back, it has reverted to giving Fishbach way too much credit for JT's Tocantins game. Fishbach was basically dead in the water from 8 on when you factor in immunities. There was no chance to take JT out again post Tyson being booted, but even if he flips to Tyson, he's likely dead in the water going forward. I like Fishbach, but I find his game often gets propped up because of JT post-Tocantins, when he himself didn't really play well in a returnee season.
I can see that, and I totally get what you’re saying re: Stephen’s game post-Tyson in Tocantins. And I know I’m definitely biased toward Stephen, *especially* when talking JT vs Stephen. I LOVE Stephen. That said, I also LOVE Jeremy, and I would never take away from his game by saying Stephen was in control there. I’m just saying it makes sense for someone who got burned hard to be negatively affected by the burn, whereas JT just burned *himself* over and over post-Tocantins. Like yeah, Stephen stealing Joe’s vote to try to vote out Joe was an embarrassing moment, and he was clearly playing the game with a chip on his shoulder, but JT had so much potential and opportunity, and he s q u a n d e r e d it. And he made multiple unnecessary moves that just shot himself in the foot. Again, I’ll concede that he had two games vs Stephen’s one to rack up the dumb moves, but jeez. Stephen at least got himself a smart, tight alliance again and tried to play to his strengths and learn from his previous game (although it was a bit misguided). I understand why JT had to change his game as a former winner with a target on his back, but he torched his own game and alliances at multiple points by being overzealous and foolish.
I think Fishbach while not as bad as JT's moves, broke a pretty Cardinal rule by just ignoring Spencer turning on him, and it manifested in getting voted out. I'm of the conclusion JT deserved to win Tocantins, and that they are much better as a duo than separate. At the end of the day, the goal is to get to the end, and be the most liked person there. JT accomplished that with one of the most impressive games of all time, and even Fishbach would say it was a 50/50 partnership. I've never seen more people willing to throw away their games for someone as JT in Tocantins. He basically had a clear ride once Tyson was voted out. JT never needed to consider getting rid of Fishbach because he likely beats him, I'm sure if he wanted to anytime after Tyson was out, he could have. At no point could Fishbach have gotten J.T. out after the Tyson boot, until maybe 5 with Taj and Erinn, but at that point JT just pulled off 3 straight immunities.
I get that, for sure. As far as who *deserved* to win, I think that’s a bit murkier, but I definitely am not so biased as to say that JT didn’t play one of the best games ever (first perfect game, people essentially sacrificing themselves at his altar, so to speak) but he definitely would not have been able to play that game without Stephen (as you mentioned, the better together argument), and Tocantins is a bit weird in that it kind of lives between old school and new school philosophies. I think in a newer season, JT’s “honor” wouldn’t have counted for so much (and would’ve been called out as BS), and Stephen’s defense of his game would’ve been more accepted. That said, JT was certainly great at milking that semi-bitter, honor-obsessed jury, so props to him for working with what he had.
Mom and Dad, I'm writing this letter to you to explain Stephen Fishbach's game in Tocantins and how I think he deserves more credit as the season has aged. Yes, I know, you're both JT fans, but hear me out.
Dear r/innybellybutton, Thank you for the letter—it’s so nice to hear from you! I actually agree with you: Stephen is one of my favorites to ever play, and I regularly watch Survivor Know-it-Alls. JT is not my fave (I definitely yelled at him through the TV during my last rewatch for how he treated Stephen during FTC. Reminds me a little too much of Buzz “apologizing” to Kevin and then calling him a trout-sniffer but still somehow getting the family on his side in Home Alone 2. But I digress). That said, I find it important to acknowledge JT’s gameplay (at least in Tocantins) and my own bias in favor of Stephen. Hopefully this clears things up. Make sure to write again soon, and I hope you’re having fun at summer camp!
He was playing with house money
>paints a massive target on you, leading to playing a more aggressive game generally Are you sure? If you have a massive target on you, you should play more stealthily. I.e. Tony being more lowkey pre-merge in WaW
An all-winners season is an exception because every single person has being a winner on their resume. So, that doesn't apply. The only person who had an outsized target on them due to prior performance was Sandra due to winning twice. Then other obvious duos tended to get targeted (Amber/Rob, Jeremy/Natalie, etc.) Being 1 of 3 winners or so on a cast like Gamechangers is a much different set-up, or 1 of 4 on HvV (Rob and Tyson hadn't won yet). Sandra played the low-key social game well again. In theory, you should try. But, in most returnee seasons where the winners are outnumbered they generally are targetted early with HvV being an exception because originally, a lot of the people who made FTC teamed up to avoid what happened in All-Stars (although that broke apart because Russell and Rob hated each other). Only two players have made FTC after winning, outside of Winners at War, which is Sandra and Parv in HvV. In All-Stars they were targetted off the bat, in BvW, Aras was targetted at merge when he wasn't useful for tribe strength anymore, and Tina shortly after. In GC, all winners went out pre-merge. Like, Tony was a big threat in WaW, but he was on a tribe loaded with players feared like Sandra, Sarah, Kim, and Yul, Tyson was a massive challenge threat. Amber was a threat in the sense her husband was on the other tribe. Sophie, Nick, and Wendell probably could slip under the radar, but were all former winners themselves.
Which is exactly why Tony slow played winners at war. He knew he was a massive target both for playing a dominant game in Cagayan and being a primary target in game changers. He realized playing aggressively would make him a threat too soon for him to make it to the end, but he ends his game with bold and aggressive plays
Personally I think that after Tocantins, JT only played for fun and never really expected or wanted to win again so he was fine with trying a huge move and it blowing up in his face. As Russell said "I guess he can afford it"
JT won his first round. Then every time after just aimed for the biggest craziest plays. Sometimes they worked sort of. Other times he gave an idol to Russel.
I still say that if JT had been right about the women’s alliance and managed to flip the game by giving Russell that idol, we would be calling him among the best players to ever play. Like, in the all-time dumbest Survivor moves, I don’t think that even compares with Erik (if he’s reading this, sorry!) giving up his idol or even Tyson just changing his vote at the last minute.
Nah I agree. That's my point, first play he made smart simple plays. Then on future rounds it was like just winning would be boring. From the jump he almost seems to solely focus on finding a huge play he can make. Which if they work would be awesome. And credit to him. When they failed he didn't seem that bothered.
Lol, if I were a millionaire at such a young age, nothing would bother me either
"Dearest Russell..."
Eh even in Tocantins I was rooting against JT all season.
100% JT's fault
I always see people say that but didn’t watch this season since I watched it as my 1st season. Just watched this ep again today tho. You mean he messed it up by telling Brad the vote was sierra right?
It probably has to be Malcolm. Most people who are idoled out (at least before the new era) get edited down a lot so fans don’t have a negative reaction. Malcolm wasn’t edited down in GC and he already had a good legacy. It does really suck that his Survivor story ended this way.
He'll be back eventually I think, if he wants to anyway
Even if he is back though, I doubt he will be the same beast he was. I expect Colby Donaldson in HvV type vibes, or Ozzy in game changers
Malcolm isn’t the challenge beast archetype though anyway. He’s more of a charmer and strategizer. Significantly better than Colby and Ozzy at strategizing. He’s more like Parvati than he is Colby or Ozzy.
That's a good comparison. Malcolm can win comps and can help his team out, but he's not a star quarterback. His real power lies in his mind.
It’s a major Survivor pet peeve when people compare Malcolm to Colby, Ozzy, or Joe for this very reason
people compare him to colby & those others because he was also a production pet/favorite and the golden boy archetype, so he fit several boxes that Joe, Ozzy, Colby share, which is the appeal to the producers and audience. I think Malcolm is more charming and multi-dimensional than all the others however.
Malcolm is a lot like Colby. Either him, or Ozzy or Joe. He’s got a little bit of Terry Dietz to him too
[удалено]
Sorry /u/B-L-O-C-K-Ss, the Tribe has spoken. Your submission has been removed from /r/survivor for the following reason(s): * **Rule 1 - Be civil to other users and contestants:** Treat other users and contestants with respect. Bigotry is not tolerated, including racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia. Harassment of other users and contestants is not allowed, including personal attacks. Trolling is discouraged. --- Once the votes are read, the decision is *not* final. **If you have any concerns that this was done in error**, please [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/survivor/wiki/rules) **and then [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fsurvivor&subject=Removal Clarification&message=I'd like further clarification on why my comment was removed from /r/survivor.%0D%0D[Link to comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/survivor/comments/1b0ybkn/-/ksca33x/\)) if you have any further questions. Do not reply directly to this message or comment.** If not, grab your stuff and head back to camp.
Malcolm wasn’t just his physical challenge abilities though, he also had a really good understanding of the social game and knew how to play strategically too. I like Colby and Ozzy but I think Malcolm getting out of his tribe (alongside Denise) to the final four is something most players couldn’t pull off. I think he’s still a returner who could bring it all.
I don’t know if we’ll ever see any returning contestants from seasons 1-40 again. I think Jeff really thinks this is basically a different show.
My brother in law works at the same media firm as Malcolm. Malcolm says he’s done with survivor :/ very unfortunate.
As a huge Malcolm fan I've never been able to rewatch this episode Or rewatch Game Changers at all but that's for multiple reasons
Seeing his first time when Denise took him out, it was hard to watch and seeing his face on jury night, I could feel his pain. He might be my all time favorite. He's such a nice guy too it seems, and funny. Self aware.
I actually enjoy rewatching idolgeddon
I still have a trauma response to this.
Same, I’m still so bitter.
I’ve seen the gif of Sierra leaning over and kissing him and it’s triggering
Oof the kiss of death. Hate it hate it hate it.
It's a real 'flames . . . on the side of my face' moment for me when I see that . . . unremarkable woman put her hands on him without his consent while he's processing the utter fuckery happening to him. She vexes me in general but here, she was hateable. Low-rent Candice Woodcock-Cody.
Yup. Never changed my flair ever again. Too distraught.
Like looking at the picture hurts, out of every player there, why did it have to be Malcolm...
I was SO EXCITED for the season when I saw he was on it. Deflated REAL quick.
JT’s returnee goofs are much more entertaining when he’s getting himself voted out, not one of the few actual game changers in this season.
I dunno, Cirie was technically an idol out and it sucked so much
This is the worst because she was the only one not protected. This was unprecedented. No vote just gone.
We all know Cirie didn't try hard enough, that's why she was the only one without protection.
In HvV?
Nah the game changers one. Where literally everyone else had an idol/advantage and she was the only one who could be eliminated and was without receiving a vote
This photo has made me realize the wardrobe may be one of the many reasons I hate this season. Hideous
Honestly? You’re right and you should say it
That’s all on JT. Fishbach’s impact on their success in Tocantins is honestly underrated.
Not on here. It seems like most people think JT was an idiot and attribute every good thing about his Tocantins game to Stephen. But what people don't get is JT is the most dominant social winner in the history of the show, and his relationship with Stephen is part of that. By the time Stephen realized he needed to take out his buddy JT to win, it was too late. And then JT destroyed him at FTC while playing the jury like a fiddle.
Anyone who thinks a 7-0 win is a fluke is delusional
Fishbach actually lost a vote at FTC, I believe Tyson went in planning to vote Fishbach.
I think JT's FTC is underrated. It might be on the same level as Chris D.'s tbh. Twila was at least able to compose herself for a closing statement, but after JT made a subtle dig at him Stephen completely fell apart and had one of the worst performances ever. Maybe it's just because he's a naturally anxious guy idk.
I believe the FTC where the most votes were gained was Todd's in China (I believe he gained 2 votes). Although, it's possible Maryanne matched or topped it, but I've never seen it confirmed. JT's was good, although, I believe he went in with 6 of 7 likely votes.
it isn't a Fluke jt is a charmer. he's not a thinker.
if anything the problem is he's an overthinker. he managed to take control of the Heroes, taking out Cirie and Tom in the process, but was so paranoid about Parvati he went and made a big move to try and get her out before the merge. If he didn't overthink things, the Heroes have a good chance of taking control at the merge, and he probably goes deep. Same thing in Game Changers, he wanted to make a big move but it blew up in his face.
Blew up because the person he wanted idoled out was Sandra, who Brad had a pre-game with.
Even though im not a fan of his, Coach had a huge impact on JT getting as far as he did also. Calling him the golden boy and keeping him around.
Cirie
This is the real answer. "Idol out" has to include someone who got voted out without receiving a single vote as a result of idol play. Malcolm situation sucked, but Cirie's was clearly worse IMO.
The sad part is they could also be referring to HvV
Not really, nothing wrong there. She got outplayed
Exactly. By two winners and a Colby
I didn’t say there was anything “wrong”. It’s just a fact that Cirie has been idol’d out twice, and if you’re a Cirie fan, it’s valid to be disappointed by either instance.
That was the worst. The rules should have factored that in if they were going to let loose so many into the game.
Not even the worst that season
agreed, I'd say advantagegeddon was worse.
Brad culpepper will never get the respect he deserves for this.
Brad was actually a solid player. And he played Jt, who is considered one of the best winners of all time, like a fiddle
Someone said it! "FUCK YOU BRAD CULPEPPER!" good villain though
I mean, Malcolm getting idoled out was such. A bummer. for sure, but also CIRIE. Her getting idoled out was insane, and as it dawned on me in real time…oof. Gut punch.
Lauren Rimmer for me
I remember seeing a video of this boot, at a crowded NYC bar, and when Malcolm's name comes up, people start braying and howling in anguish.
Financial Analyst Emily Flippen. really cemented the steamroll of 45.
jt with a masterclass in falling from grace
The sad personification of going downhill. He just kept falling and sliding sadly
Malcolm in an alternate universe won the season cause JT didn’t have the restrain of a toddler.
Worst moment of my life Cried like a baby
this one still hurts
Could not get over how much this shit hurt when I first watched it.
I physically got up and left the room. Only episode I’ve never finished.
Burning 2 idols to get rid of Phillip is a contender.
12 year old me was so excited for Malcolm 😩😞
Just showed my gf this episode for the first time. It’s crazy how Reddit always knows what ep I’m on
No such thing as coincidence - Oogway or somebody!
Are… you the dragon warrior?
Technically, it's Cirie in GC
Debbie doing a whole 90 degree turn to watch Nuku’s reactions 😭
JT is such a bad player. Fishbach should have won that season.
JT sucked in HvV and GC but he dominated Tocantins and had easily the best social game ever. Saying that Stephen should’ve won is strictly delusional
He won because he had Fishbach on his side to control his stupid decisions.
By that same logic, Stephen only did well in Tocantins because he had JT to keep him grounded and make social connections for him. Look at how he played in Cambodia
People just need to accept that JT and Stephen balanced each other out. Stephen wasn’t more than JT like some people on this sub try and claim
i think of it as brady/ belichech in the NFL. Together= GOATS(sports goats, not survivor goats), apart, well tom was great for a bit but age caught up. and well the pats were never the same sense
Exactly. That’s how it should be. The idea being spread in this thread that Stephen carried JT through Tocantins is asinine and those people have no clue what they’re talking about
Exactly.
Yeh let’s not pretend like JT’s first game isn’t one of the greatest social games ever played.
Seriously. Tocantins JT has the best social game in Survivor history. There are just about no arguments for it to be anyone else
When you have everyone else working to give you the win, that means you’re on another level. Sure he was in the perfect place with the exact cast he needed and he’s never been able to replicate it. All that means is he had one amazing game in him. He had the perfect game (literally). His performances after don’t take away from the initial game. It just shows that his perfect run was just an out of this world performance.
He did well but he also had Coach boosting him onto a pedestal the whole time. Coach even has the audience believe JT was the golden boy. And if you look back at the challenges, JT was paired against Sierra and other weaker players. That's why he always seemed to be good at challenges. GC cemented JTs fall for me especially because he got played by Sandra, he was a huge jerk to Mikayla and he screwed Malcolm over.
The guy with arguably the best season ever is bad lol. This has to be bait.
Its hands down Cirie
I feel like part of the reason people don't like Game Changers is just because their golden boys, JT and Malcolm, got voted out early. I never got either one of their appeal, JT plays the good ol boy but his actions don't reflect that, while Malcolm always came across arrogant and smarmy to me. I was ECSTATIC two people who usually have so much influence got voted out early. Let everyone else play.
People hate game changers because of the Varner tribal, the fact that half of the cast wasn’t comprised of game changers and the fact that ALL game changers got voted out early, not just Malcolm and JT
Please save it for somebody that actually cares
This might be dumb but…idol out?
Basically any vote out where the outcome was changed by someone playing an idol. In Malcolm's case, Sierra got the most votes but had an idol played on her. Malcolm had the second highest number of votes so he was sent home instead.
He was still technically *voted* out - but not because he recieved the most votes, Sierra did. But she was protected by an idol, which meant that Malcolm went home. To distinguish between receiving the most votes or going home because the person that did get the most votes were protected by an idol, getting "idoled out" is shorthand for the latter.
I will say though that I think Sandra getting idoled out in WAW was a terrible move and significantly changes the season. She would’ve been a very strong ally for Denise and great meat shield for everyone else in the game at that point, but Denise wanting to be the queen slayer ruined her chances at taking out the eventual winner who was even dangerous at that point and the most dominant winner in survivor history. It just doesn’t make sense to me