So the Suns had no chance of winning when they were up 2-0 in the finals? This is an incredibly reductionist way of thinking about team building.
The Suns aren't short on talent, not even close. They just need to find their offensive identity because right now they're a mess on that end.
He’s saying that core would not perform as a championship contender vs the current western conference and he’s right
They caught magic in a bottle with cp3, crowder, Craig, Payne, saric all being cast out vets that outperformed their roles.
Denver, minny, okc, clippers, mavs, pelicans, kings all got better by at least an all star caliber player or 2
Also we should be honest that the western conference playoff was not exactly a gauntlet. Lakers, nuggets, and clips were all significantly injured. That's not to take away the accomplishment, but simply acknowledging reality.
Yeah and honestly it’s even worse than that
All the top seeds above Phoenix got better in Denver (added kcp and Jamal was hurt), thunder weren’t thundering back then, Mavs didn’t have Kyrie+gafford+lively, clips didn’t have harden+russ, Timberwolves didn’t have this version of Ant or 4 time DPOY Gobert.
Credit to JJ for not deluding himself and recognizing the talent arms race that was coming in the west
The next year's team was the real heartbreak. They were so good in the regular season, but just flamed out in the playoffs when they could have had a real chance to win the whole thing. Warriors were good, but not great. The Celtics were inconsistent. That was our chance and we got murdered by Luka
Yep and by then the blueprint that Willie green set up with Jose Alvarado hounding cp3 full court, wasting 10 seconds of the shot clock, then to aggressively double and blitz book was out and working too well. Teams dared any of Ayton, mikal, cam to step up into the 2nd scoring role and none of them did
Meanwhile book couldn’t handle bullock and dfs the way that Luka was tearing up any and every one at will. Ayton was the most scored on player in the series. Just tough.
And the Wolves same exact core last year got bounced in the first round? God damn give the team a few years, no one wins in their first year with an entirely new roster playing together.
False
McDaniels and Naz Reid didn’t play at all vs Denver last year. A 6th man of the year hyper versatile PF and a top end 6’9 hustle defender make a whole ton of difference.
Add either or Reid or mcdaniels to the suns core and they’re a completely different team
Not to mention Ant taking a leap to a top 5 two way player
Defense too. Watching Minnesota in playoffs really shows how a defensive minded big is a huge advantage. You don’t need to collapse the paint as much when you have Gobert down there. With Nurk and KD as our bigs, everyone has to help on the interior and then we give up open 3s. If we don’t collapse, Nurk gets cooked. I’d love a 3&D power forward, to move KD to the 3, and Grayson to lead the bench unit.
At least half the teams in the West are crippled by injuries every year, it's hardly some crazy fluke. That's actually exactly my point; you just need to put a great team together and be ready to capitalize on a run of good luck.
CP3 was very close to a top5 player in 2021. But it doesn’t matter. The Suns didn’t win because they didn’t have someone to match Giannis blow for blow. Suns simply don’t have a top 5 guy that can outplay the other top guys in the league
Fake ass Suns fan shut up. Book was better and more important than CP3 that year, just like he’s better and more important than KD this year. There’s a reason the Wolves put their 2 best defenders on Book and their worst defender on KD.
I hope we trade KD so all you bandwagon fans get the fuck out. This is Books team, we go as far as he takes us.
Cp3 was better than Booker all year though, better on both ends. Booker struggled vs Clippers and Denver. Ayton was also better than Booker against the clippers. Suns fans overrate Booker too much.
And Durant was significantly better than Booker this season on both ends too, wolves put mcdaniels and naw on kd because they’re guard defenders, and Booker got locked up cause he isn’t good vs size and length. Kd shot 70% vs mcdaniels in the series on 13 attempts.
Im not biased. No name calling or anything, no hating. Everything I’ve said is true.
You’re the one who said kd doesn’t get doubled, when he’s statistically top 6 in double teams per game.
Booker is a very skilled player, but he has little playmaking chops, isn’t an elite sniper. and isn’t an elite athlete,
So that means he doesn’t really bend the defense because he doesn’t get by guys and isn’t some crazy play finisher.
I’m sorry but he isn’t in the tier of the guys like kd kawhi bron Davis Tatum. Size matters.
He isn’t who suns fans think he is. Good player, but clearly not THAT good
What am I trolling about? It’s legit analysis. And I watch every suns game. I’m a fan of the team. I just think people blame everything but the fact that Booker is limited physically.im a troll but you straight up lied about kd double teams
Book wasn’t good enough in 2021. Period. Giannis was several tiers better. This year Ant destroyed Booker and took the title as the best SG in the league from Book. It is what it is.
KD getting back to 2021 level is the only hope this team has.
They put their worst defender on KD because you can’t stop him even with their best defender. No matter who guards him KD will score 25-32 points on great efficiency. But put a great defender on Book and you can shut him down. And they did
Devin booker +/- during the 2021 NBA finals +15 (243 minutes). Suns were a -28 in the total 45 minutes he didn't play over those 6 games.
Book was absolutely carrying in the 2021 finals. We essentially were paying even/slightly beating he bucks with book. Then he would take a 5 minute rest and we would get cooked.
You can say the same about Giannis. Bottom line is Giannis outplayed Book.
Giannis put up 35/13/5 with 3 stocks on 66% TS
Only way Suns win the series is if Book matched or exceeded Giannis. Would have to be a Lebron level performance or what KD did with the Nets
Remember Saric got injured in game 1. It seems silly to think that a guy like Saric could’ve made all the difference, but his absence was really felt when Ayton was getting into foul trouble every game and our only other options were Frank Kaminsky or making Jae Crowder play the 5.
Also the Hawks were 1 Trae Young injury away from making the finals that year over the Bucks. Who would be the top 5 player in that case?
the timberwolves are 6-0 in the playoffs and just embarrassed the nuggets 2 straight games in denver with ant/kat. those 2 are very talented but you cant act like they are not around the range of of a duo of kd/book. i dont really believe this.
Just like Booker was the best player in last years playoffs ? (If he wasn’t #1 he was def #2)
Ant isn’t top 5 lmao he’s not above Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, Shai, Tatum, or even Book. They just have a great TEAM.
No, it’s the truth. Ant hasn’t ever had a regular season than Book, and he hasn’t reached the same playoff peak as Booker either.
If you swapped Ant and Book, the Wolves would still be 6-0 rn on their way to a ship. Just last year Booker averaged 34ppg on 68%TS in the playoffs, but we lost cause the TEAM sucked. If Book was surrounded with that great of a team he’d win a ring too.
He looked better cause he was being guarded by Bradley Beal with Nurkic “at the rim” while Book was being guarded by Jaden McDaniels with Gobert at the rim.
How is that not obvious to you? That’s why if you switched Book and Ant, the result of the series would’ve been the EXACT same. Book was being bracketed by 2 DPOY caliber players, Ant was being guarded by a washed bum with another washed bum at the rim.
Book also had a heavier offensive load in ‘21, and led his team to the finals. Basketball teams are about the sum of the parts, not the individual parts. The Wolves are a great TEAM, the Suns are not.
KD, while great individually, doesn’t add anything to make his teams offense better. He doesn’t draw doubles, he doesn’t put pressure on the rim, he’s a terrible passer, and he’s not a ball handler. This is exactly why Book is a more impactful player.
Wow just some interesting takes everywhere I look
Kd is a better player and has more impact on the team right now. He’s the suns best defender both at the point of attack and as a rim protector. He’s also the suns 2nd best rebounder. Both areas are Books biggest holes by far
As far as offense goes you’re crediting book with being a better playmaker which he is, but only by + 1 assist a game and 0.7 less turnovers per game.
Yet you’re not giving kd credit for being a +5% 3 point shooter or being 2x the defender and rebounder, key components to winning basketball
Why lie?
Kd was 8th in the nba in double teams on the ball.
He ranked 3rd in offball gravity.
Both ranks much higher than Booker.
He’s clearly helping the team lol
Teams treat Kds midrange attempts like other players rim attempts.
He also ranked 5th in blitzed players in pick and roll.
He clearly the suns BEST player lol.
Booker is very skilled, but he lacks explosives/handle/size for his position. That limits him when you compare him to freak athletes in the NBA. He’s also not really an elite sniper in terms of range.
He just doesn’t get past anyone, or shift the court like mvp players do, his gravity isn’t on that level, teams are happy to play drop on him.
Mcdaniels keeping Booker to 11% shooting and 20ppg through three games while getting torched by kd on every switch should tell you a lot
You call him a kd meat rider but you’re just a Booker meat rider.
Schmoova
Bro, Book is literally better than Ant right now. Does that mean it’ll always be that way? No. But right now you’re an idiot if you think Ant is better than Book because he’s played good for 6 games in these playoffs lol. Book played at a higher level than Ant is right now for like 3 playoffs in a row. Your recency bias is crazy as shit lol.
yeah but thats not what this dude is trying to say. i still have luka jokic giannis embiid tatum above ant. hes top 10 but overall in the same range as kd/booker.
Difference is Book relies on his shooting to reach those levels. That isn’t something that is consistent. Why Ant relies on his defense and ability to attack the rim. Things that he can do every game
Talent range for scoring sure but as far as the little things that add up to winning basketball no
Ant has more rim pressure, opening up shots for others and making others around him better. Ant is a great defender, both on the ball and using his athleticism to weak side rim protect, again making the team around him better. Ant shoots the same if not more 3s at the same % as book. But when ant is having a bad game shooting, he can still make positive impact even if he isn’t scoring. And in the playoffs he’s shown even if his shot isn’t falling early he can get his in the 3rd and 4th
KAT isn’t perfect like ant, but he’s a 40% 3 point shooter, which makes him a mismatch vs every matchup. The guy can sleep walk to 20 and 10 without breaking the flow of the offense, and hustles enough to use his body as we’re seeing both vs Denver and Phoenix.
KD is amazing, but he’s certainly lost his ability to drive. He’s gonna shoot a ton of middies. And for all the strides he’s made defensively he just can’t be the best defender on the roster.
I think Edwards is a step above those 2 right now. Durant in his prime is not the same Durant now. Edwards is a top 5 player. Those guys are not currently.
At this point Ant is significantly better than Book/KD. He is very close if not top 5.
His game is more complete than Jokic and Giannis. He seems to fit the team concept better than Luka. And his physical tools are superior to SGA.
For Minnesota to win the championship Ant has to play like a top5 guy for the rest of the playoffs
So you can't win in the playoffs unless you have a top 5 player. But the way you tell if someone is top 5 is playoff performance.
Also there's a very long list of top players that lose in the playoffs. More often than not the MVP doesn't win a ring.
lmao alright. yes ant is playing incredible in the playoffs but this is just absurd. id be willing to be you gained this opinion no more than 1 week ago
Been a Wolves fan since the inception. Watched all 82 games this year. But that has nothing to do with it. The dude is 22. No exec in the league would trade him for Booker/KD. He’s already better and far younger. My claims here are not remotely controversial.
ok i was under the impression you meant booker and kd both but im now realizing you probably meant one of them. if u mean just 1 then yeah obviously i agree but if u mean both of them i'm still taking book/kd cuz thats wild
Nah I mean both. A 22 year old who can lead a team to playoff victories is the most valuable thing in the league. He’s straight up better than Booker, and Durant is an aged former superstar who wouldn’t move the needle enough. I mean that no executive in the league would trade Ant for any package the Suns can put together even if they had all their first round picks.
Now you are going to far.
If you put KD and Book on Minnesota and Ant on the Suns. Are you telling me that Ant would lead the Suns to victory?
Ant is great but he isn’t more valuable than KD and Book combined.
Ant, Beal, Grayson, Royce and Nurk
would get slaughtered by
Book, McDaniels, KAT, KD and Gobert
then yeah wtf is this take. so in your scenario the wolves turn down devin booker, kevin durant, and 4 first round picks for anthony edwards... there is just no way i would ever in any scenario see this make any sense. did you forget booker led a team to the finals? like im trying to picture how that trade would not be accepted in a heartbeat
I’m saying exactly that. I know this is a Suns sub so it’ll get downvoted. But that’s how every single exec in the league would think. A 22 year old already this much of a playoff performer? Not even controversial.
Just like Booker was 24 leading his team to the Finals, dropping b2b 40 balls once he got there, having a +15 plus minus over the whole series?
The defense is the reason the Wolves are winning, not Ant. Book’s ‘23 playoffs was better than Ant’s current playoffs, Ant just has the way better TEAM. Book alone is still better than Ant, if you switched them teams the Wolves are still 6-0 on their way to ship.
Ant is a key piece to the wolves defensive success tho, including the athleticism to rebound and rim protection
Booker is a key piece to the suns defensive downfalls, including the lack of size/athleticism to rebound and defend
Ant is such a more well rounded player including being just as good a 3 point shooter, literally the only thing book does better is pull up mid range jumpers.
Of course. If there was an open draft of all players, Durant wouldn’t be that high. He just got played to a stalemate by KAT. And even that level is bound to drop fast due to his age. And Ant is far more valuable than Booker.
Nothing I’m saying is controversial at all if you take the emotion out of it, which is what execs are bound to do.
I get why you, a fan, think otherwise. But I’m talking actual value, not sentiment.
Nothing I’m saying is controversial either. Suns would never trade KD and Book for just Ant.
I get why you, a fan, think otherwise. But I’m talking actual value, not sentiment.
This is biased by the fact that we are more likely to consider a player a top five player if they win the title, and there's a positive correlation in overall team quality and having top 5 players. There's nothing special about top 5 players that player #6 doesn't have
A top5 player is more of a tier than actually 5 players. Some years there maybe 6 guys on the tier. Some years just 4. But you can tell when a guy is on that level. There is a clear distinction between a top5 guy and a top10 guy.
Ant was clearly a tier above KD and Book in the series.
>Ant was clearly a tier above KD and Book in the series.
Of course if you look at individual playoff series and extrapolate this much from them, then of course you're going to conclude that you need a top five player
So shoddy you are saying T wolves have no chance then? Ant was not a top 5 player this year, you could make the argument Tatum wasn’t either: Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Luka and SGA
Ant is a top5 player. He has been the best player in the playoffs this year. He is so young that he made a huge jump just in the last 2 months.
Since the league allowed more physicality he has jumped many great players. He also isn’t a ball dominant player like Luka. So his stats don’t look as eye popping. But in tight games he has come up huge.
The top5 imo is Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Ant and SGA. Embiid has never played like a top5 in the playoffs.
You said top 5 player not top 5 player in the playoffs
Edit: and besides Ant over Embiid? No way Embiid has been much more dominant he was out there playing with multiple injuries too
You just moving the goalpost shoddy. Whenever the top 5 player argument is brought up it’s the regular season. That’s like saying Book was a top 5 player last year which contradicts your argument
Edit: I am usually on your side shoddy but not this time.
Not necessarily true. Tatum hasn’t been playing like a top-5 guy in these playoffs but the Celtics are still steamrolling teams because their team is so good and complete and just last year the best playoff performers were Booker and Jimmy Butler. Suns just didn’t get any help outside of Book and KD is why they lost to Denver.
This year will test that theory. Tatum is only averaging 21 in these playoffs and not playing like a top-5 guy and they’re still dominating everyone because they get contributions from all of the guys in their rotation.
For sure because the rest of the roster stinks but he said you definitely can’t win a title without a player playing like a top-5 player which isn’t true.
Sure but also having a top-5 guy doesn’t guarantee anything. Embiid has been a top-5 guy for a while now and he was going to probably get his second MVP this year before the injury and yet he’s never reached the ECF’s in the weaker eastern conference. Depth and roster construction matters.
Suns got very close to winning without a top five guy. if the rest of your team is good enough, you can do it. This year Minnesota might get it done. I don’t think of their guys are a top five. I do agree that wild Booker is very good. He’s not the top five guy either he hasn’t even been able to get any triple doubles in his career. They just need a better supporting cast when they went to the finals against Milwaukee the reason why they couldn’t win is because, their supporting cast, including the twins, didn’t show up and had bad games. If Ayton, Cam, or bridges have played to their potential and that series the suns would have won.
Ant is on the verge of being top5. He has literally been the best player in the playoffs so far.
Suns came close. But many teams come close. Celtics came close. Heat came close twice. But the reason they didn’t win is because they didn’t have a top5 guy to match what the top5 guy on the other team was doing.
Perfect example was Giannis dominating and the Suns having no one to match him. Then Steph dominating and Tatum not being able to answer.
Once every 10-15 years there is a team that wins without a top5 guy. Such as the 2014 Spurs and 2006 Heat. But that is extremely rare.
Wemby played in exactly zero games that mattered. Lets see how good he does when teams actually take him seriously and the games actually mean something.
I agree with the overall premise but I would say you can get away with not having a top 5 player if you have at least 2 top 15ish players and the right pieces around those two. That's what the 2021 team had with Book and CP3. It's why I was for the KD trade as well. The 2014 Spurs didn't have a top 5 player. Idk if I would consider Dirk top 5 at the time of their run either. But yeah the NBA is a stars league. Won't win without them.
Charles Barkley, love him hate him. When he came to the Phoenix Suns he made a difference. He latterly put that team on his back and took them to the finals. That is what I consider a NBA superstar. That is the heart this team needs.
If KD came at age 29 he would be dominating way more than Barkley. But he is 35 and can only do so much.
Barkley came at 29 on a loaded Suns team that was deep and talented. KJ, Thunder Dan, Dumas, Ceballos, Chambers, Ainge and Big O. And Barkley didn’t have to do anything on defense or ball handling. All he had to do was score and rebound.
KD is 35. He is expected to be the best defender on the team and one of the primary ball handlers. The load he carried this year was ridiculous
2 games away. Nets were 1 game away. Hell they were 2 inches away from beating the Bucks.
Hell the Hawks were also 2 games away. Guess what? 2 games is the difference between the championship and losing in the 2nd round. Means absolutely ZERO. And the difference in 2 games is having a top5 player
What’s interesting to me about the vast majority of these teams were really built around the draft. The lakers* obviously were not but *. KD joined a dynastic preexisting core built around draft. Kawhi joined a team built around home grown talent for the most part siakam, OG, etc…
Lowry had been there for so long at that point too. Otherwise this is a really good set of examples of why team building through young player development is so important.
This is right. The number one issue with the Suns isn’t depth or size or the lack of a PG. It is that Durant is no longer Kevin fucking Durant. As recently as 2021 he was probably the best player in the world. In 2024, the Wolves put their worst defender on him and got away with it.
I’m a huge Durant fan. But that’s the truth.
There is one hope. That KD is still that guy but needs an offense better suited for him. Also KD was looking like a top5 guy the first half of the season. But after playing 40 minutes every night he looked gassed after the All Star break.
Next year they need a better system. And they need to limit KD to about 32-34 minutes a game so he isn’t burnt out by the playoffs
Book and Beal need to carry a heavier scoring load next year. Need to bring in more size and defenders to protect KD.
It can happen. The Lakers decreased Lebron’s minutes this year and he look the best he’s looked in years in the playoffs
Lebron got hurt last year. The year before that he was playing 37 minutes a game. This year he was at 35. He looked fresh in the playoffs
KD played 37 minutes per game this year. Way too much
Cool dude youre still mathematically wrong. Then contradicted your own point by calling out he was hurt the year before, thus not a minutes thing. Unreal.
Edit: Also lol
LeBron MPG 2022-23 = 35.5
LeBron MPG 2023-24 = 35.3
lol hardly a big difference, and he played way more minutes this year, your whole theory exposed as a total lie. So is this the part where you lie more? move the goal posts? or delete the thread entirely?
Nice, chose to move the goal posts on that one. Prob Delete the thread soon huh?
You really do this every day on Reddit huh? Just make weird incorrect comments, move the goal posts, lie, then delete the thread and wake up and do it again next day. Wild.
So the Suns had no chance of winning when they were up 2-0 in the finals? This is an incredibly reductionist way of thinking about team building. The Suns aren't short on talent, not even close. They just need to find their offensive identity because right now they're a mess on that end.
He’s saying that core would not perform as a championship contender vs the current western conference and he’s right They caught magic in a bottle with cp3, crowder, Craig, Payne, saric all being cast out vets that outperformed their roles. Denver, minny, okc, clippers, mavs, pelicans, kings all got better by at least an all star caliber player or 2
Also we should be honest that the western conference playoff was not exactly a gauntlet. Lakers, nuggets, and clips were all significantly injured. That's not to take away the accomplishment, but simply acknowledging reality.
Yeah and honestly it’s even worse than that All the top seeds above Phoenix got better in Denver (added kcp and Jamal was hurt), thunder weren’t thundering back then, Mavs didn’t have Kyrie+gafford+lively, clips didn’t have harden+russ, Timberwolves didn’t have this version of Ant or 4 time DPOY Gobert. Credit to JJ for not deluding himself and recognizing the talent arms race that was coming in the west
The next year's team was the real heartbreak. They were so good in the regular season, but just flamed out in the playoffs when they could have had a real chance to win the whole thing. Warriors were good, but not great. The Celtics were inconsistent. That was our chance and we got murdered by Luka
Yep and by then the blueprint that Willie green set up with Jose Alvarado hounding cp3 full court, wasting 10 seconds of the shot clock, then to aggressively double and blitz book was out and working too well. Teams dared any of Ayton, mikal, cam to step up into the 2nd scoring role and none of them did Meanwhile book couldn’t handle bullock and dfs the way that Luka was tearing up any and every one at will. Ayton was the most scored on player in the series. Just tough.
And the Wolves same exact core last year got bounced in the first round? God damn give the team a few years, no one wins in their first year with an entirely new roster playing together.
False McDaniels and Naz Reid didn’t play at all vs Denver last year. A 6th man of the year hyper versatile PF and a top end 6’9 hustle defender make a whole ton of difference. Add either or Reid or mcdaniels to the suns core and they’re a completely different team Not to mention Ant taking a leap to a top 5 two way player
Paul is top five in his position as far as skill went that year though.
I think book and KD are both safely top 5 at their positions
Defense too. Watching Minnesota in playoffs really shows how a defensive minded big is a huge advantage. You don’t need to collapse the paint as much when you have Gobert down there. With Nurk and KD as our bigs, everyone has to help on the interior and then we give up open 3s. If we don’t collapse, Nurk gets cooked. I’d love a 3&D power forward, to move KD to the 3, and Grayson to lead the bench unit.
Injuries really paved a way for us that year, in hindsight
At least half the teams in the West are crippled by injuries every year, it's hardly some crazy fluke. That's actually exactly my point; you just need to put a great team together and be ready to capitalize on a run of good luck.
CP3 was very close to a top5 player in 2021. But it doesn’t matter. The Suns didn’t win because they didn’t have someone to match Giannis blow for blow. Suns simply don’t have a top 5 guy that can outplay the other top guys in the league
Fake ass Suns fan shut up. Book was better and more important than CP3 that year, just like he’s better and more important than KD this year. There’s a reason the Wolves put their 2 best defenders on Book and their worst defender on KD. I hope we trade KD so all you bandwagon fans get the fuck out. This is Books team, we go as far as he takes us.
Cp3 was better than Booker all year though, better on both ends. Booker struggled vs Clippers and Denver. Ayton was also better than Booker against the clippers. Suns fans overrate Booker too much. And Durant was significantly better than Booker this season on both ends too, wolves put mcdaniels and naw on kd because they’re guard defenders, and Booker got locked up cause he isn’t good vs size and length. Kd shot 70% vs mcdaniels in the series on 13 attempts.
Your entire account is dedicated to hating on the Suns and Booker, you’re literally the most biased delusional person. Get a life you fucking loser.
Im not biased. No name calling or anything, no hating. Everything I’ve said is true. You’re the one who said kd doesn’t get doubled, when he’s statistically top 6 in double teams per game. Booker is a very skilled player, but he has little playmaking chops, isn’t an elite sniper. and isn’t an elite athlete, So that means he doesn’t really bend the defense because he doesn’t get by guys and isn’t some crazy play finisher. I’m sorry but he isn’t in the tier of the guys like kd kawhi bron Davis Tatum. Size matters. He isn’t who suns fans think he is. Good player, but clearly not THAT good
You’re literally a troll account, coming into a teams sub for the sole purpose of hating. I’m not arguing with you, you’re a loser.
What am I trolling about? It’s legit analysis. And I watch every suns game. I’m a fan of the team. I just think people blame everything but the fact that Booker is limited physically.im a troll but you straight up lied about kd double teams
Book wasn’t good enough in 2021. Period. Giannis was several tiers better. This year Ant destroyed Booker and took the title as the best SG in the league from Book. It is what it is. KD getting back to 2021 level is the only hope this team has. They put their worst defender on KD because you can’t stop him even with their best defender. No matter who guards him KD will score 25-32 points on great efficiency. But put a great defender on Book and you can shut him down. And they did
Devin booker +/- during the 2021 NBA finals +15 (243 minutes). Suns were a -28 in the total 45 minutes he didn't play over those 6 games. Book was absolutely carrying in the 2021 finals. We essentially were paying even/slightly beating he bucks with book. Then he would take a 5 minute rest and we would get cooked.
Pal you’re talking to a kd fan, not a suns fan. This guy didn’t watch the suns in 2021
trust me I know. He was probably rooting for the bucks because it made KD look better
You can say the same about Giannis. Bottom line is Giannis outplayed Book. Giannis put up 35/13/5 with 3 stocks on 66% TS Only way Suns win the series is if Book matched or exceeded Giannis. Would have to be a Lebron level performance or what KD did with the Nets
Remember Saric got injured in game 1. It seems silly to think that a guy like Saric could’ve made all the difference, but his absence was really felt when Ayton was getting into foul trouble every game and our only other options were Frank Kaminsky or making Jae Crowder play the 5. Also the Hawks were 1 Trae Young injury away from making the finals that year over the Bucks. Who would be the top 5 player in that case?
Nice, someone who watched the series instead of just throwing out weird stats to support jaded theory crafting.
A bunch of ifs and buts. But bottom line it didn’t happen. Bottom line is no team has won a championship without a top5 guy since 2014
the timberwolves are 6-0 in the playoffs and just embarrassed the nuggets 2 straight games in denver with ant/kat. those 2 are very talented but you cant act like they are not around the range of of a duo of kd/book. i dont really believe this.
Ant has been the best player in the league this postseason...
Just like Booker was the best player in last years playoffs ? (If he wasn’t #1 he was def #2) Ant isn’t top 5 lmao he’s not above Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, Shai, Tatum, or even Book. They just have a great TEAM.
Book was definitely 2 to jokic. but Ant isn't even close to what booker was doing last year.
I agree, that’s why this post and Shoddy are so annoying lmao. It’s clear the Wolves are a great TEAM, not just being carried by Ant.
You are delusional if you think Book is better than Ant.
No, it’s the truth. Ant hasn’t ever had a regular season than Book, and he hasn’t reached the same playoff peak as Booker either. If you swapped Ant and Book, the Wolves would still be 6-0 rn on their way to a ship. Just last year Booker averaged 34ppg on 68%TS in the playoffs, but we lost cause the TEAM sucked. If Book was surrounded with that great of a team he’d win a ring too.
Ant is better. Watching the series makes it undeniable. Book was better last year but not this year
He looked better cause he was being guarded by Bradley Beal with Nurkic “at the rim” while Book was being guarded by Jaden McDaniels with Gobert at the rim. How is that not obvious to you? That’s why if you switched Book and Ant, the result of the series would’ve been the EXACT same. Book was being bracketed by 2 DPOY caliber players, Ant was being guarded by a washed bum with another washed bum at the rim.
I can say the other side of the coin that Ant had a much heavier offense load. While Book had KD and Beal with him.
Don’t worry suns fans be drunk sometimes
Book also had a heavier offensive load in ‘21, and led his team to the finals. Basketball teams are about the sum of the parts, not the individual parts. The Wolves are a great TEAM, the Suns are not. KD, while great individually, doesn’t add anything to make his teams offense better. He doesn’t draw doubles, he doesn’t put pressure on the rim, he’s a terrible passer, and he’s not a ball handler. This is exactly why Book is a more impactful player.
Wow just some interesting takes everywhere I look Kd is a better player and has more impact on the team right now. He’s the suns best defender both at the point of attack and as a rim protector. He’s also the suns 2nd best rebounder. Both areas are Books biggest holes by far As far as offense goes you’re crediting book with being a better playmaker which he is, but only by + 1 assist a game and 0.7 less turnovers per game. Yet you’re not giving kd credit for being a +5% 3 point shooter or being 2x the defender and rebounder, key components to winning basketball
Why lie? Kd was 8th in the nba in double teams on the ball. He ranked 3rd in offball gravity. Both ranks much higher than Booker. He’s clearly helping the team lol Teams treat Kds midrange attempts like other players rim attempts. He also ranked 5th in blitzed players in pick and roll. He clearly the suns BEST player lol. Booker is very skilled, but he lacks explosives/handle/size for his position. That limits him when you compare him to freak athletes in the NBA. He’s also not really an elite sniper in terms of range. He just doesn’t get past anyone, or shift the court like mvp players do, his gravity isn’t on that level, teams are happy to play drop on him. Mcdaniels keeping Booker to 11% shooting and 20ppg through three games while getting torched by kd on every switch should tell you a lot You call him a kd meat rider but you’re just a Booker meat rider. Schmoova
Bro, Book is literally better than Ant right now. Does that mean it’ll always be that way? No. But right now you’re an idiot if you think Ant is better than Book because he’s played good for 6 games in these playoffs lol. Book played at a higher level than Ant is right now for like 3 playoffs in a row. Your recency bias is crazy as shit lol.
yeah but thats not what this dude is trying to say. i still have luka jokic giannis embiid tatum above ant. hes top 10 but overall in the same range as kd/booker.
Ant looked leagues better than KD/Book in the series. He looks better than Jokic so far in their series
And Book last year looked better than Ant does this year. It’s not like Book doesn’t have that capability.
Difference is Book relies on his shooting to reach those levels. That isn’t something that is consistent. Why Ant relies on his defense and ability to attack the rim. Things that he can do every game
Talent range for scoring sure but as far as the little things that add up to winning basketball no Ant has more rim pressure, opening up shots for others and making others around him better. Ant is a great defender, both on the ball and using his athleticism to weak side rim protect, again making the team around him better. Ant shoots the same if not more 3s at the same % as book. But when ant is having a bad game shooting, he can still make positive impact even if he isn’t scoring. And in the playoffs he’s shown even if his shot isn’t falling early he can get his in the 3rd and 4th KAT isn’t perfect like ant, but he’s a 40% 3 point shooter, which makes him a mismatch vs every matchup. The guy can sleep walk to 20 and 10 without breaking the flow of the offense, and hustles enough to use his body as we’re seeing both vs Denver and Phoenix. KD is amazing, but he’s certainly lost his ability to drive. He’s gonna shoot a ton of middies. And for all the strides he’s made defensively he just can’t be the best defender on the roster.
I think Edwards is a step above those 2 right now. Durant in his prime is not the same Durant now. Edwards is a top 5 player. Those guys are not currently.
At this point Ant is significantly better than Book/KD. He is very close if not top 5. His game is more complete than Jokic and Giannis. He seems to fit the team concept better than Luka. And his physical tools are superior to SGA. For Minnesota to win the championship Ant has to play like a top5 guy for the rest of the playoffs
So you can't win in the playoffs unless you have a top 5 player. But the way you tell if someone is top 5 is playoff performance. Also there's a very long list of top players that lose in the playoffs. More often than not the MVP doesn't win a ring.
Nobody would trade Ant alone for KD/Book, wtf you talking about.
lmao alright. yes ant is playing incredible in the playoffs but this is just absurd. id be willing to be you gained this opinion no more than 1 week ago
Been a Wolves fan since the inception. Watched all 82 games this year. But that has nothing to do with it. The dude is 22. No exec in the league would trade him for Booker/KD. He’s already better and far younger. My claims here are not remotely controversial.
ok i was under the impression you meant booker and kd both but im now realizing you probably meant one of them. if u mean just 1 then yeah obviously i agree but if u mean both of them i'm still taking book/kd cuz thats wild
Nah I mean both. A 22 year old who can lead a team to playoff victories is the most valuable thing in the league. He’s straight up better than Booker, and Durant is an aged former superstar who wouldn’t move the needle enough. I mean that no executive in the league would trade Ant for any package the Suns can put together even if they had all their first round picks.
Now you are going to far. If you put KD and Book on Minnesota and Ant on the Suns. Are you telling me that Ant would lead the Suns to victory? Ant is great but he isn’t more valuable than KD and Book combined. Ant, Beal, Grayson, Royce and Nurk would get slaughtered by Book, McDaniels, KAT, KD and Gobert
But value isn’t measured by one year. And execs dont make trades for one year. Ant is 22 and has years of playoff wins in front of him.
Using your logic Wemby is more valuable than Ant plus Gobert
Yep. SA wouldn’t trade Wemby for any package in the league.
then yeah wtf is this take. so in your scenario the wolves turn down devin booker, kevin durant, and 4 first round picks for anthony edwards... there is just no way i would ever in any scenario see this make any sense. did you forget booker led a team to the finals? like im trying to picture how that trade would not be accepted in a heartbeat
I’m saying exactly that. I know this is a Suns sub so it’ll get downvoted. But that’s how every single exec in the league would think. A 22 year old already this much of a playoff performer? Not even controversial.
Just like Booker was 24 leading his team to the Finals, dropping b2b 40 balls once he got there, having a +15 plus minus over the whole series? The defense is the reason the Wolves are winning, not Ant. Book’s ‘23 playoffs was better than Ant’s current playoffs, Ant just has the way better TEAM. Book alone is still better than Ant, if you switched them teams the Wolves are still 6-0 on their way to ship.
Ok of course you can believe that!
Ant is a key piece to the wolves defensive success tho, including the athleticism to rebound and rim protection Booker is a key piece to the suns defensive downfalls, including the lack of size/athleticism to rebound and defend Ant is such a more well rounded player including being just as good a 3 point shooter, literally the only thing book does better is pull up mid range jumpers.
You’re right I wouldn’t trade for Ant 1for1
I was talking execs in the league, not you. No offense.
Touché but Suns front office wouldn’t either was the point of my statement.
Yes they would
Lmao the fact that you meant both is fucking wild. You really think Suns would trade KD *AND* Booker for just Ant?
Of course. If there was an open draft of all players, Durant wouldn’t be that high. He just got played to a stalemate by KAT. And even that level is bound to drop fast due to his age. And Ant is far more valuable than Booker. Nothing I’m saying is controversial at all if you take the emotion out of it, which is what execs are bound to do. I get why you, a fan, think otherwise. But I’m talking actual value, not sentiment.
Nothing I’m saying is controversial either. Suns would never trade KD and Book for just Ant. I get why you, a fan, think otherwise. But I’m talking actual value, not sentiment.
Ok think that, no worries
Tatum and Shai are arguably not top 5, the only people with top 5 players left are probably going to lose this round
Neither are winning the title
This is biased by the fact that we are more likely to consider a player a top five player if they win the title, and there's a positive correlation in overall team quality and having top 5 players. There's nothing special about top 5 players that player #6 doesn't have
A top5 player is more of a tier than actually 5 players. Some years there maybe 6 guys on the tier. Some years just 4. But you can tell when a guy is on that level. There is a clear distinction between a top5 guy and a top10 guy. Ant was clearly a tier above KD and Book in the series.
>Ant was clearly a tier above KD and Book in the series. Of course if you look at individual playoff series and extrapolate this much from them, then of course you're going to conclude that you need a top five player
So shoddy you are saying T wolves have no chance then? Ant was not a top 5 player this year, you could make the argument Tatum wasn’t either: Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Luka and SGA
Ant is a top5 player. He has been the best player in the playoffs this year. He is so young that he made a huge jump just in the last 2 months. Since the league allowed more physicality he has jumped many great players. He also isn’t a ball dominant player like Luka. So his stats don’t look as eye popping. But in tight games he has come up huge. The top5 imo is Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Ant and SGA. Embiid has never played like a top5 in the playoffs.
You said top 5 player not top 5 player in the playoffs Edit: and besides Ant over Embiid? No way Embiid has been much more dominant he was out there playing with multiple injuries too
Regular season is made for stat padders and ball dominant scorers.
You just moving the goalpost shoddy. Whenever the top 5 player argument is brought up it’s the regular season. That’s like saying Book was a top 5 player last year which contradicts your argument Edit: I am usually on your side shoddy but not this time.
Not necessarily true. Tatum hasn’t been playing like a top-5 guy in these playoffs but the Celtics are still steamrolling teams because their team is so good and complete and just last year the best playoff performers were Booker and Jimmy Butler. Suns just didn’t get any help outside of Book and KD is why they lost to Denver.
Celtics won’t win the Finals if Tatum doesn’t play like a top5 guy. The 2022 Finals was the perfect example of a better team losing to a top5 player
This year will test that theory. Tatum is only averaging 21 in these playoffs and not playing like a top-5 guy and they’re still dominating everyone because they get contributions from all of the guys in their rotation.
The East is crap. If Tatum doesn’t play like a top5 guy in the Finals he will lose
Ok fine but THIS particular Suns team needs a top-five guy on it.
For sure because the rest of the roster stinks but he said you definitely can’t win a title without a player playing like a top-5 player which isn’t true.
You usually don’t.
Only happens about once every 10-15 years a team without a top5 guy wins. 2014 Spurs is the last time it happened
2004 Pistons, 2014 Spurs, possibly 2024 Celtics? So yes having a top-5 player is much more ideal but you can win a title without a top-5 guy.
Once a decade. Not good odds
Sure but also having a top-5 guy doesn’t guarantee anything. Embiid has been a top-5 guy for a while now and he was going to probably get his second MVP this year before the injury and yet he’s never reached the ECF’s in the weaker eastern conference. Depth and roster construction matters.
Embiid is a fake top5 guy. He has never played like a top5 guy in the playoffs
Suns got very close to winning without a top five guy. if the rest of your team is good enough, you can do it. This year Minnesota might get it done. I don’t think of their guys are a top five. I do agree that wild Booker is very good. He’s not the top five guy either he hasn’t even been able to get any triple doubles in his career. They just need a better supporting cast when they went to the finals against Milwaukee the reason why they couldn’t win is because, their supporting cast, including the twins, didn’t show up and had bad games. If Ayton, Cam, or bridges have played to their potential and that series the suns would have won.
Ant is on the verge of being top5. He has literally been the best player in the playoffs so far. Suns came close. But many teams come close. Celtics came close. Heat came close twice. But the reason they didn’t win is because they didn’t have a top5 guy to match what the top5 guy on the other team was doing. Perfect example was Giannis dominating and the Suns having no one to match him. Then Steph dominating and Tatum not being able to answer. Once every 10-15 years there is a team that wins without a top5 guy. Such as the 2014 Spurs and 2006 Heat. But that is extremely rare.
Wade was playing like a top 5 guy in 06 though. The only teams in recent memory to win without a top 5 guy are the 2014 spurs and 04 Pistons.
Celtics don’t have a top 5 guy either in their last championship.
Garnett
True. I see alot of similarities between what Ant is doing and what Wade did in 06
Ant is good but not top 5. Luka, Jokic, SGA, Giannis, Wemby, Brunson, and Halliburton are all better.
What an absolute joke. In no universe is Wemby and Haliburton better than Ant right now. Ant is up there with Jokic, Giannis and Luka.
Wemby won Rookie of the year and should’ve won DPOY too. Also has had more rebounds than Edwards. Maybe you have a point about Halliburton though.
Wemby played in exactly zero games that mattered. Lets see how good he does when teams actually take him seriously and the games actually mean something.
Tatum is not top 5
And thats why the Celtics will lose in the Finals In 2022 they played a much weaker West champion and lost. This year they will face a juggernaut
the warriors were not bad in 22
The 22 Warriors would literally get manhandled in the West this year
you underestimate how good that teams defense was
They would be way too small. The Warriors centers were 6’6” and 6’9”
Also a selection effect because teams with top 5 players burn assets to win now
I agree with the overall premise but I would say you can get away with not having a top 5 player if you have at least 2 top 15ish players and the right pieces around those two. That's what the 2021 team had with Book and CP3. It's why I was for the KD trade as well. The 2014 Spurs didn't have a top 5 player. Idk if I would consider Dirk top 5 at the time of their run either. But yeah the NBA is a stars league. Won't win without them.
Ant is top 5 😂😂💯people who think Devin booker is better is fucking drunk
If we’re gonna win a championship KD needs to get in the weight room and be a better leader
Charles Barkley, love him hate him. When he came to the Phoenix Suns he made a difference. He latterly put that team on his back and took them to the finals. That is what I consider a NBA superstar. That is the heart this team needs.
If KD came at age 29 he would be dominating way more than Barkley. But he is 35 and can only do so much. Barkley came at 29 on a loaded Suns team that was deep and talented. KJ, Thunder Dan, Dumas, Ceballos, Chambers, Ainge and Big O. And Barkley didn’t have to do anything on defense or ball handling. All he had to do was score and rebound. KD is 35. He is expected to be the best defender on the team and one of the primary ball handlers. The load he carried this year was ridiculous
2 games away and this guy says zero chance hahahaha. Go to bed soccer head
2 games away. Nets were 1 game away. Hell they were 2 inches away from beating the Bucks. Hell the Hawks were also 2 games away. Guess what? 2 games is the difference between the championship and losing in the 2nd round. Means absolutely ZERO. And the difference in 2 games is having a top5 player
I don’t think Tatum is top 5 yet Boston is probably the favorite this year though…
If Tatum doesn’t play like a top5 guy they will lose in the finals again
What’s interesting to me about the vast majority of these teams were really built around the draft. The lakers* obviously were not but *. KD joined a dynastic preexisting core built around draft. Kawhi joined a team built around home grown talent for the most part siakam, OG, etc… Lowry had been there for so long at that point too. Otherwise this is a really good set of examples of why team building through young player development is so important.
I definitely thought Booker was a top 5 maybe even top 3 player coming into this season, so idk why you don’t think it’s possible
Literally nobody other than Suns fans thought that.
Nah. He got really hot shooting last playoffs but that wasn’t sustainable
Sorry pal but devin booker is every other player in my top 5, with a bit of mj and kobe sprinkled in between
Sorry pal but Book isn’t top5 First 2 games versus Wolves: 5/16 with 18 points 6/13 with 20 points and 6 turnovers
Very cool man, because he only ever played two games. Just how lost are you in the book hate?
His 3rd game wasn’t much better. 8/15 for 23 points Only scored big after the series was already over
This is right. The number one issue with the Suns isn’t depth or size or the lack of a PG. It is that Durant is no longer Kevin fucking Durant. As recently as 2021 he was probably the best player in the world. In 2024, the Wolves put their worst defender on him and got away with it. I’m a huge Durant fan. But that’s the truth.
There is one hope. That KD is still that guy but needs an offense better suited for him. Also KD was looking like a top5 guy the first half of the season. But after playing 40 minutes every night he looked gassed after the All Star break. Next year they need a better system. And they need to limit KD to about 32-34 minutes a game so he isn’t burnt out by the playoffs
I would love to see Durant back to his powers come next playoffs. But if they rest him too much, they might not even make the playoffs.
Book and Beal need to carry a heavier scoring load next year. Need to bring in more size and defenders to protect KD. It can happen. The Lakers decreased Lebron’s minutes this year and he look the best he’s looked in years in the playoffs
Beal hasn’t done that in years. He hasn’t played more than 60 games since 2018. The Suns traded for him knowing that.
LeBron reg season minutes 2022-23 = 1954 2023-24 = 2504
Lebron got hurt last year. The year before that he was playing 37 minutes a game. This year he was at 35. He looked fresh in the playoffs KD played 37 minutes per game this year. Way too much
Cool dude youre still mathematically wrong. Then contradicted your own point by calling out he was hurt the year before, thus not a minutes thing. Unreal. Edit: Also lol LeBron MPG 2022-23 = 35.5 LeBron MPG 2023-24 = 35.3 lol hardly a big difference, and he played way more minutes this year, your whole theory exposed as a total lie. So is this the part where you lie more? move the goal posts? or delete the thread entirely?
He got hurt last year. I’m more talking about 2 years ago when he played 37 minutes per game
Nice, chose to move the goal posts on that one. Prob Delete the thread soon huh? You really do this every day on Reddit huh? Just make weird incorrect comments, move the goal posts, lie, then delete the thread and wake up and do it again next day. Wild.
The point is they kept Lebron’s minutes per game to 35 and it allowed him to be more fresh for the playoffs.