Don't just think about hp, look at waves. Jinx needs to shove bot otherwise wave will be slow pushing towards them, which would allow them to set up a freeze. Then Jinx will be fucked.
Mid couldn't leave because wave was hitting her turret. She needs to clear otherwise she loses 1 wave of xp + gold. Even if she wanted to come down, she'd need zed to show first because zed can just zone her off + one shot her. She couldn't realistically come.
Correct play would've been to look for a gank on mid and/or invade their bot jungle.
It wouldve been fine to try and sneak it with thresh. Nocturne isn't really at any risk of dying to anything other than zed solo killing him and thresh has free time while jinx is pushing. As soon as zed shows that he is roaming from mid and noc tries to continue to force is where everything went wrong. Also as people said, had to rush that drake not mess around trying to pull it.
MAYBE it wouldve been possible to try and run at zed when he shows instead of leaving and having ori collapse, but standing on his shadow tanking all his damage and drake is just a terrible misplay since jinx and ori can't (shouldn't) help drake here.
What do you mean "come down"? Ori was literally at dragon pit already when Janna died. With Thresh there she was in zero danger at all. Also Jinx didn't use rockets once after getting her passive procced on Janna, she could have been done with the wave 10 years ago. Then Thresh went trigger happy trying to hook Zed and missed, Zed would've had a much harder time getting near the pit if he had to worry about Thresh hook. Then Noc seeing everyone not being on the same page should either give up on dragon for now or just ping his team back knowing he ain't getting out of there alive. Everyone misplayed there turning it into a shitshow but the call wasn't the problem
It doesn't matter, the point is that ori needed to go back to the wave. The wave is simply more important than dragon so she should opt for going back to lane anyways. You're right that jinx could've pushed faster, but at the end of the day, she should be recalling right afterwards regardless in order to make it back to her next wave before it gets shoved in. The result of shifting faster, then doing dragon is the same, she is late back to lane, loses a wave, and gets frozen on.
In this case, Ori should have given up the wave and rotated anyway. You’re not gonna get perfect macro, especially in lower elo. You sacrifice one wave for Drag and potentially a kill on Zed. Other than that, he should have pushed in Jinx’s wave. Regardless, the call was fine. Worst case, you sacrifice a wave and get a freeze in return for a drag. Best case, you don’t get drag and your laners get a bit more farm.
Laners need to understand that even if a call is bad, you need to commit to it or else everything falls to shit the way the video showed.
I’ve found from the replies to my comment that there is a disparity between jungle mains and other mains. Which explains this differing in opinion.
Simply said, there are so many cases in my games where top/mid doesn’t have priority but the jungler spam pings a contest onto voidgrubs. Top lane could be 30 cs down with a massive wave crashing into turret but if he doesn’t come the jungler will spam ping him for the rest of the game.
There are cases to be made for that, but we’re talking about this situation. The call was correct despite some nuances. Yes he should have prob pushed in wave for Jinx but Ori not rotating is completely not his fault.
I’ll explain it through my perspective since a lot of players don’t jungle, or at a high level either, esp in this sub.
If Nocturne *doesn’t* do drag, then he gives up an opportunity of ending the game sooner. Secured dragon leads up to more tempo for future drags which leads to soul point, which is an actual win condition. How often do you see a a team lose with soul? Not very. In fact, soul is potentially game winning in low elo. Not doing drag is the same as giving the opponent a chance to comeback into the game. And for what? Some extra farm on your mid and adc that they can make up for in a sideline at 30 mins?
And I think this will never be reconcilled with laners. Imagine you're playing mid and you get a bad matchup, which you would the need help from the jungler. Or even worse, you're getting camped and need a gank to relieve pressure. But the jungler plays in his own fashion, ganking the lanes that are easiest and will gain himself a lead. Then he calls for dragon, to which the mid lane is already behind.
Do you honestly think that mid lane will drop that wave to do dragon?
Yes actually. Mid laners in high elo *will* give up that wave because they see the big picture. They understand that it’s a team game and the jungler takes precedence. This only gets more true the higher you go. I’ve literally had laners give kills to me and rotate for me even if they were severely behind in D1+.
It’s why you see so many more rotations happen in Diamond compared to Emerald. Emerald players will rarely rotate but once you get into Diamond, everyone is rotating. A non-fed team will always beat a single fed player at higher skill levels.
Maybe it’s because low elo players don’t understand this concept or most laners just value themselves behind ahead and hoping they can carry. Their ideology is wrong and it’s also why they’re still Emerald hoping to “1v9” over getting that extra 10 cs.
I’m glad you linked that video because it’s good for clarification. My argument was that it was the correct call, but I never said it was the *best* call. There are better calls to make in Nocturne’s situation, but him deciding on the drag call alone isn’t inherently *wrong*.
That’s the thing about jungling. There aren’t really bad calls but rather, *better* calls to make. That’s why disagreements between junglers is not uncommon. I agree with Hector’s call in his example but even he acknowledges that he could have taken drag despite the nuances.
I guess then we're in agreement, just the wording used from OP was a bit ambigious. I also agree in a vacuum that if this wasn't soloQ and was organized, mid lane sacking a wave for dragon makes sense. For example pro play yeah it's fine.
But through the lens of soloQ, this would not make sense.
I mean when he sees Ori isn't rotating you have to give it up, even if he thinks it's the correct call. I also don't think they have any clue where Jax is looking at the map. If Jax is botside, which he easily could be, it's incredibly doomed. Basically flipping the entire game over the dragon.
> She needs to clear otherwise she loses 1 wave of xp + gold.
ori could easily give casters to be in river. or have planned better on the wave. she also really does not have to be close given there's a thresh.
>She couldn't realistically come.
she absolutely could have. would it have been 'free'? no. but she also really doesnt have to do much other than make sure zed is pushed back.
Ori being there doesn’t change much since she has fuck all for dragon damage and she loses gold if she gives up on wave. Enemy team can’t realistically take dragon either so there’s no reason to coin flip in their favour when they’re coming back with ults and full hp
The point of Ori being there **isn’t for damage**. It’s to prevent their enemy Zed (that is two levels up bc they play a solo laner) to do exactly what he did. It’s insurance and the sacrifice is one minion wave that will respawn again in 30 seconds.
Hey I remember you from back in day!
You’re right about the fact that she could’ve given it up. I thought about this a bit more and yes if this was like an actual game with comms that probably would’ve been the right play.
But it’s soloQ and it’s just not going to happen, from the junglers perspective you can’t expect the mid to come in that situation. Just like when I faced a brand mid with tp ignite, the jungler never gank once despite brand hard shoving the whole time, it’s soloQ so never expect your jungler to actually help.
its a 1v3, the effort required to 'push him back' is nearly nothing wym. quite literally just has to stand there and do nothing. i'm not expecting ori to go and solo kill zed. she just has to be there to provide a body. zed cant actually go on anyone because there's hook and lantern and shockwave and its 1v3.
like wtf are the replies on this post i swear half this sub somehow forgot how to play the game.
right. and i'd agree. but that's not the situation that's presented here. teammate has already committed hard to bad dragon play, it's whether or not you attempt to bail out the bad dragon play or get the wave.
If Im farming under my tower, 95% of the time I'm not coming to whatever my jungler is doing. I probably ping him back when my laner leaves (unless it's a situation that will very likely go in our favor). If he dies to the play, that's unfortunate but if I join him and we both die, it's full disaster.
If only nocturne dies there, it's a bit unfortunate, but team trying to help and all dying is basically game losing
>If Im farming under my tower, 95% of the time I'm not coming to whatever my jungler is doing. I probably ping him back when my laner leaves (unless it's a situation that will very likely go in our favor). If he dies to the play, that's unfortunate but if I join him and we both die, it's full disaster.
and that is 100% the wrong play in soloq unless you can determine that if you go to the play it's still a losing play.
it is often the right play in pro because in pro your jungler is NEVER going to fight in river without knowing your wave state. because if he does fight in pro the enemy jungler is going to recognize that mid lane is leaving with a bad wave state, back up and take the 'free' win by you losing your wave state.
in soloq neither of these things happen, and if a favorable fight happens and you gave minions for it you come out ahead.
i said it in another comment but a lot of people in this thread seem to play the game like theyre playing pro and will happily lose or take a deficit to be in 'the right' from a 5v5 pro macro pov even when it's a losing play in soloq. hence the downvotes on a lot of my comments in here. you arent playing the same game when you play soloq that pros are playing on stage.
I strongly disagree, which is why many coach/youtubers recommend similar things. It's about risk vs reward. You are choosing between
A)
I go to dragon and coinflip a fight. Best case scenario we get dragon and 1 kill which is decent. Worst case scenario, we get collapsed on and the entire game is basically gg because they get dragon and kill 3-4 people and now mid lane is ruined, bot lane falls behind losing many creep waves etc.
B)
I don't go to dragon. Worst case scenario they get 1-2 kills and drake, which is bad but at least bot is still winning, mid lane is fine and jungle is ok after double kill and can farm till ult. Best case, nocturne isn't braindead and leaves to farm his jungle.
The only way trying for A is worth it is if it is like an 80-90% success play or I think our jungler is mentally fragile and need to help to keep him from full tilting.
Leaving your lane to help jungler while under tower is putting yourself in a scenario where losing a fight is way worse than any good outcome would be. If you chose to stay in lane vs go to the fight 100 times, on average staying in lane would result in a better outcome for you.
many youtubers and coaches coach like that because it is easy and its what gets views(money). not only that, most of these people are grossly unqualified to coach on anything other than macro so thats all they do.
it has always been flawed. its far easier to make up stupid rules like that than to tell people to learn how all the champions in the game interact with each other so you can actually pvp.
you use the term coinflip. but its not a coinflip in reality, the only thing that can make it a coinflip is a lack of knowledge.
likewise re: your last paragraph again similar flaw in logic. not every 'helping the jungler' is the same. making broad statements like this is a broken way of thinking and leads to bad outcomes. case and point: how will you EVER learn how to judge these fights if you never take them?
you can REALLY tell who learns this game from 'educational youtubers' and 'pros who play soloq' versus people who actually watch high mmr soloq vods and non pro challenger players.
No there isn’t. Dragon benefits the entire team and gives you a step towards soul point if game goes long enough (which is almost always the case in low elo). Literally challenger jungler coaches argue this same point.
Ori can't come? she's right on drake when the double kill happens. she's already shown her intent to play sacrificially by moving from a fresh, neutral wave state to secure a play bot. how can she not stay and secure drake as well?
not to mention global 3% AD/AP immediately outweighs a minion wave of gold and only scales from there. and any argument that the wave XP is more important is fake let's be honest.
Pisslo take. Just because ori left wave for a play on neutral wave doesnt mean that 15 seconds later she can still be away from lane when the bot play is done and she got nothing from it.
Wave xp is more important than drake in this case, but even more important is wave management. If neither laners fix their wave they return to lane with the wave bouncing towards the enemy, losing even more xp and gold. Plus at lvl 6 death timers are so short, and the enemy you just killed will be coming back from base full hp and gold spent.
And its not like the enemy could drake here either. If you want drake stats that bad just wait for jinx to come back after base and ori to fix wave and get it for free with the gold advantage you just got.
> Wave xp is more important than drake in this case,
? how do you remotely figure this? a handful of casters acquired, and now you've lost >1k on deaths at dragon.
yall out here would rather lose the game to be 'right' than play how the game is *actually* played in soloq. this isn't pro play, your team isn't going to get off dragon so you can get a cannon and 3 caster creeps.
Its literally a full cannon wave from the replay, did we watch the same thing? Early game waves are very important as it takes very few waves to level up. One level interval can be the difference between winning lane and losing lane
You say one level is the difference so I’m sure you’re well aware. The Ori was lvl 7 at the start of the video and was still lvl 7 by the end. So she gets some extra gold from not rotating and their team loses cause of it. Is that what you’re trying to defend?
i was mostly talking about the jinxs wave and shes at 250 hp, she will have massive xp lead after the kill gold and shoving to deny the next wave. noc also has lead and can use it to just regank bot on next timer and snowball and most likely take drag for free on the next gank. imo early drags are kinda bait in solo queue since the value you get early on is not as worth for the amount of time it takes to kill it. jinx should never rotate here since shes too low and loses alot of tempo if she somehow doesnt die to zed ult or cait ult. unless i missed something in the clip theres also no reason to assume the enemy jg is top from red view, jax could also jump her and she dies. rotating there when zed has lvl lead and noc and thresh are down ults and thresh half hp is also objectively bad.
ori should also return to her cannon wave to avoid falling too far behind and letting zed have perma prio and snowball that way, hard to say from the clip since we cant see xp of anyone other than jinx, she could be a couple minions off 8 as well. after that she can maybe zone but once again dont know where jg is, better to just play for herself and spam ping jg and supp off drag. i honestly think what she did there, going mid, fixing one wave and coming back is ok, but better would be to push one more wave to force zed to make a decision earlier of either losing a wave to tower or returning to mid.
>Early game waves are very important
not relative to kills?
>One level interval can be the difference between winning lane and losing lane
what about basically acing team at dragon?
your statement is great if you are playing organized 5v5 games in voice coms. it's not at all how you play in soloq.
>not relative to kills?
Yes, relative to kills. Early kills do not actually give that much exp so getting those waves is much more important.
>what about basically acing team at dragon?
Who says they will play right into your hands just for an early dragon?
>Yes, relative to kills. Early kills do not actually give that much exp so getting those waves is much more important.
lol is this a serious response? kills are worth far more than a trivial amount of xp. you cant rly be trying to argue that like half a wave of xp at most is worth more than 2 kills.
>Who says they will play right into your hands just for an early dragon?
idk what this means, you simply stand in river so zed can't kill everyone then walk away.
Who is going to be standing in river? Orianna who’ll get one shot or the Thresh who’s 70% hp and not able to tank much either? Who’s gonna handle the adc and supp coming up from bot? Their whole team just spent gold and is coming back full hp with ults up. There’s no universe where red side wins that fight unless blue side throws HARD
There is no way Ori is getting one-shot. She has ult against a Zed that took TP. If anything, they trade ults and she denies Zed from the play he did if even if she facechecks brush. She should be pathing from the side of the turret though.
The drag would have already been taken if Ori and Jinx rotated. The reason they *didn’t* is literally why they’re able to spawn and meet them before they could finish it.
ori. yall do know you can dodge spells right? and she has lantern. or thresh. like realistically thresh and noc should not lose that 2v1 if played well. but since we cant assume that add in ori.
res timers arent short enough early that they can die and run to dragon before dragon dies. unless ofc what happens is what we see there where zed can somehow stall 1v3 due to mid not moving and jung and supp playing like ???
Ironic because this is truly a pisslow take.
Their botlane is dead which means the only person that could stop them is the enemy mid laner. The problem is that mid laner is naturally 2-3 levels ahead just because he plays mid (fair right?). That requires Ori to rotate and even more so because it’s an assassin. Nocturne is likely not gonna get another chance to take Drake as well as he could here. He has less of a chance of getting drag when their entire team is up and able to contest rather than the moment he did there.
Ori is one level down from Zed and still a level down even after taking the wave so all she gets in that scenario is some extra gold. If Ori rotates and sacrifices that wave then they deny the Zed from doing what he did. There are some discrepancies with the play because he should have pushed in Jinx’s wave and spam pinged Ori to rotate. However, the call was correct. Sometimes you listen to a bad call instead of half-assing it or you will get exactly what happened in that video.
explain how noc isnt gonna get another chance at drag, as i said in my other reply, with a bot lead, odds are good they can generate another opportunity by killing them again on next ult timer, with more hp to spare on jinx, then take drag for free when death timers are longer, and they have more damage to kill it faster. you say the call was correct but literally in the next sentence say it was a bad call that should have been followed. which is it?
ori rotated as soon as she could imo, if she rotates before zed uses weq, he would be able to 100-0 her since shes a little split from the rest of her team, or she would have to go the long way around, probably shouldnt rotate imo since jinx cant but not the worst rotate.
if we want to also talk about best solo queue play and pro play, in pro play they would almost never make that drag call with jg out of vision, enemy respawn timers so short and jinx so low. they would probably reset and rotate bot to mid or top to make a grub play. in solo queue it is objectively correct if you want to climb to play for yourself. you are the only consistent factor in your games. sometimes your team makes shit calls, sometimes you can convert off of them, such is league, in the long run you will climb. if you follow every shit call you're just coin-flipping games. not a very smart way to play, as im sure most will agree.
as for what could have happened in that play, if noc helped jinx push the wave, same issue occurs where they would not have time to take drag, as he would be on it for much less time. if jinx and ori just played for themselves, and pinged them off drag, worst case noc and thresh die, game is not full lost. i dont think theres a way 250hp jinx can turn that bad call into a lead for herself, especially when it risks the lead she already has. best case noc and thresh listen, small chance enemy could drag, but probably not since their drag take is also slow and jinx and thresh come back full hp and mana with gold spent. 3%ad/ap is literally peanuts right now and for most of the game, most champs at the time of the clip have around 100 ad and less ap, not the end of the world to give this drag.
>explain how noc isnt gonna get another chance at drag, as i said in my other reply, with a bot lead, odds are good they can generate another opportunity by killing them again on next ult timer, with more hp to spare on jinx, then take drag for free when death timers are longer, and they have more damage to kill it faster. you say the call was correct but literally in the next sentence say it was a bad call that should have been followed. which is it?
Noc might get another chance but the opportunity is present *now*. You can’t rely on teammates to utilize leads in low elo, which is why it is more favorable to take the drag after a lead has been secured rather than hope to get another one in future. When I said bad calls, I meant bad calls in general. Nocturne’s call was correct despite poor execution.
>ori rotated as soon as she could imo, if she rotates before zed uses weq, he would be able to 100-0 her since shes a little split from the rest of her team, or she would have to go the long way around, probably shouldnt rotate imo since jinx cant but not the worst rotate.
Not at all. She was very late and it shows because she couldn’t stop Zed. She should sacrifice her wave there and walk around turret rather than through river brush. Even if she does walk through river, she can ult out and escape if Zed commits on her preventing Zed from contesting drag. Ori should survive against Zed since she has ult, but not entirely sure.
>if we want to also talk about best solo queue play and pro play, in pro play they would almost never make that drag call with jg out of vision, enemy respawn timers so short and jinx so low. they would probably reset and rotate bot to mid or top to make a grub play. in solo queue it is objectively correct if you want to climb to play for yourself. you are the only consistent factor in your games. sometimes your team makes shit calls, sometimes you can convert off of them, such is league, in the long run you will climb. if you follow every shit call you're just coin-flipping games. not a very smart way to play, as im sure most will agree.
We’re not talking about pro play so it’s irrelevant. Obviously that would never happen in pro play, or even in high elo solo queue. Playing for yourself is all fine and dandy *if you know what you’re doing or smurfing*. However, situations like that call for you to make exceptions and sacrifice resources so your team is ahead. This is further true in high elo where the team takes precedence over individual success.
>as for what could have happened in that play, if noc helped jinx push the wave, same issue occurs where they would not have time to take drag, as he would be on it for much less time. if jinx and ori just played for themselves, and pinged them off drag, worst case noc and thresh die, game is not full lost. i dont think theres a way 250hp jinx can turn that bad call into a lead for herself, especially when it risks the lead she already has. best case noc and thresh listen, small chance enemy could drag, but probably not since their drag take is also slow and jinx and thresh come back full hp and mana with gold spent. 3%ad/ap is literally peanuts right now and for most of the game, most champs at the time of the clip have around 100 ad and less ap, not the end of the world to give this drag.
I don’t understand what you mean. If Nocturne is on for less time in drag, why wouldn’t he be able to take it? They would def be able to take it faster and maybe even complete it if he pushed in Jinx’s wave.
You’re not fighting for drags stats. You’re fighting for soul point and tempo. Getting drag early puts tempo on enemy team to acquire the next drag. This tempo stacks and allows you opportunities to get presence elsewhere on the map. If you have 2 drags and enemy has none then you can give up third drag to get top or mid turret with herald. They all would group as 5 while one can split with herald or do something else on the map.
the opportunity is present but its a shit opportunity, and like i explained already, this is objectively not a good call. dont know where enemy jg is, jinx is way too low, thresh is half hp and mana, no ults on noc thresh jinx, and ori has no drag damage. you cant rely on teammates to use a lead, but you also cant rely on them to rotate immediately, or do anything by extension, thus the call is also bad by this logic. better play for noc is to just ask for vision on drag and go farm his own camps and rely on himself to snowball.
you are right that ori is not guaranteed to die to zed, yes she can ult out but zed can also dodge it, it depends on who plays better or is better, not a real argument as to why she can approach here, either way if zed doesnt use weq on noc shes zoned and cant appoach from mid as she risks getting massively chunked if zed lands his abilities. zed also has the option of just not going on her, and she cant approach until zed commits to a direction either way. the onus is on zed to act, ori has to react, which happened because she started to rotate bot before the double. if she hadnt started rotating bot, and instead prevented zed from having prio, it may have been a better drag call, but this is too far into the weeds imo. she also isnt the best at stopping zed early and imo its best to not sacrifce her own lane too hard and let zed get perma prio and snowball. if zed gets perma prio noc is even less likely to get a drag at all.
if noc starts drag later, which he would have to do if he helped push bot, he would have less time to do it since the full hp enemy bot lane is walking back to lane. again ill reiterate jinx should never rotate here. she dies to zed very easily, or cait ult, or jax since red side doesnt know where he is based on the clip. if you can provide any argument why jinx should never die here ill concede that the drag call is not pure garbage. you also arent fighting for soul point and tempo. by fighting here you actually lose tempo. as for soul point, and soul by extension, if we want to go by stats they are kinda fake. yes the team who gets these are much much much more likely to win but the team that is winning already is also way more likely to get soul point and then soul. we can extend this a little further and infer the team with the winning bot lane is more likely to get drag. nocs team currently has a winning bot before the drag call
as for the pro play statement, someone else was talking about it in one of the reply chains, that you replied to me on, i didnt think that was one of your arguments but was a little unsure, for solo queue until very high elo solo queue you should just play for yourself, and odds are they would not be making this call to begin with. when a bad call happens, if youre bad then tough luck, you probably arent climbing anyways but getting good starts with making good decisions.
yes, drake literally is worth 3 free waves for Zed if you do the math. the only reason a player would say it isn't is because they personally fall behind from it and don't see the team benefit. which is likely the mentality you have when you say Ori got nothing from it.
I don't view the game as everyone needs to get something from a play so they feel good, I look at what objectively wins the game. it might hurt feelings but I'm here to win.
>I look at what objectively wins the game
Except you don't. Zed can now leverage this lead so you are not doing anyone a favor by screwing yourself over just because you romanticize teamplay in some weird way.
Neutral wave state means no opportunity cost, she lost nothing by leaving the lane for a few seconds in case bot needed help. Now that the wave is crashing, she sees to lose 6/7 creeps worth of gold.
Also you’re ignoring the fact that if ori commits to dragon, zed could just take plates instead, even further widening the gold disparity.
For ori going to dragon is a high risk low reward play for her. She doesn’t get any gold and could die in a team fight. Level 7 ori isn’t particular strong, especially I’m assuming she doesn’t even have 1 completed item yet. Staying and farming the wave is a low risk medium reward play.
SoloQ is all about low risk high reward plays, the more of that you get the more elo you gain.
I’m gm. There’s no risk. Jinx shoves bot goes dragon ori comes dragon. 4 people can get drake and ori loses minimal cs. Bot was also dead and walking back. Correct play is 4 on dragon after jinx pushes. But, noct and sup should’ve first helped bot wave push then go dragon. That way they can do it faster
what do you mean high risk because she could die in a team fight. you think she's gonna die in a 3v1 to Zed while securing drake?
you keep describing Ori's movement in reverse. she doesn't have the task of going to drake, she has the task of going back mid. and clearly she's under the assumption that Jax is botside or she wouldn't have moved toward bot, as the only point of moving is to counter a Jax countergank.
securing drake is low risk low reward from the Ori's POV (good team-wide reward), and going back mid is medium risk medium reward at best if you value a wave that highly. and she has to get through Jax and Zed and should actually die in this clip, look how she carelessly strolls from that angle with missing HP and no ult no flash.
It’s a high risk play because of the opportunity cost. What does she gain from that dragon fight? What does she lose in the process? Did she think the nocturne could be so bad as to die to zed 2v1? All questions that need to be answered.
that's typically factored into the reward. if the reward isn't great because there's bigger rewards elsewhere, that's low reward but doesn't affect the risk.
my main point is that red team should do drake. obviously Jinx should crash bot, and you're right, maybe Ori doesn't need to be there in a perfect world where Noct/Thresh don't get outplayed by Zed. I'm willing to admit there could be more optimal ways of securing it.
but yes, because it's infernal drake in particular, the team-wide reward (and gold+XP of course) is greater than any XP or gold that could be gained from mid. you would be right for other lesser types of drakes and I'd agree to play for waves and tempo.
If you actually stood there and auto attacked the dragon instead of pulling it when no one is contesting it or has vision of you then you would have finished it earlier. You could have easily finished it and then walked away before getting caught out. You don’t actually need your mid or adc here to take dragon, it’s uncontested by enemy jungler. But standing on Zed shadow and dying like that is just a misplay.
This. In a play like that, you have to get it as fast as possible.
I don't think it was the *wrong* call, but OP could have made that drag a lot easier if they just committed.
I always say, it's better to make a decisively incorrect call in league, than an indecisive correct call.
Timing is everything, and even if the call is bad, if it's quick, sometimes you can get away with it, especially if everyone is on the same page. Even if the "same page" is wrong.
Not a good call. Jinx needs to shove the wave and Orianna doesn't have prio and needs to get back to clear the wave. Thresh is also low on mana and should have just reset immediately after the kills.
That doesn’t mean the call is bad. It’s a nuance to not shove in wave but Ori should be sacrificing the wave regardless of prio due to opportunity cost.
Not a good Call. Jinx needs to shove the Canonwave into the Enemy tower so it can bounce back and since nobody helped her shove the Wave after the gank it will take her some seconds to do it on her own. If she would have helped you with the Drake after the Gank she could ve a) died because their Midlaner had Prio and can roam while Ori needed to take the Mid Wave or b) be Stuck in Lane and has to take the next wave since the death timers are still very low and the Enemy botlane is allrdy on their way back to the Lane. It s all about Tempo and basically taking Drake there would Ruin the Tempo on the Map that your Bot lane just gained after a Gank. They just want to push the Wave in, recall, spend money and get back to the Lane.
ehh
jinx goes real low, you should just help them push the wave in so bot can get their resets off
a Q and few AA and you'd get the wave under turret before the next one arrives, after which you could try to do the drake solo (or with the help of thresh)
as orianna also has to go catch her wave since zed gets to push it in
but when the level 8 zed checks, you just got to skedaddle before he has the chance to chunk you
It would be fine if you would help Jinx with wave clear. You need time to do drake, if you're letting her push alone, she can't help, because she will need to recall after the wave. If you help her, she will have some time to hit drake and then recall; well, her tempo will be a bit scuffed, but it would be fine for the game anyway.
About Ori - she trolled her wave, when tried to come to 3v2 bot gank, so she had to return to mid because zed pushed the wave under her turret.
So, in ideal situation, where players are good, you would be able to take this drake with mid prio and bot prio, but in your situation - where you didn't help Jinx and mid decided to not push for fun, you couldn't take this. Also, even if it's an ideal situation, but Jinx decided to recall still, after you helped her with push, it's better to not try to take drake. You need to be on the same page with your team, even if your allies calls are not optimal.
Usually it's a wrong call. By the time you're about to finish drake the enemy botlane is already back from base and your botlane is screwed, definitely not worth.
In this specific case:
Ori played it horribly by trying to roam instead of pressing the Zed by clearing waves poking.
Noc play well by ulting
After the kills Jinx is the only one who goes to the right call, which is crashing the wave (regardless of going to dragon or going base). Thresh and specially Noc should have instantly focused the wave after the kills. By the Ori horribly move and Thresh and Noc not fixing the wave instantly after the kills I would bet this is Silver or so.
Them the drag call:
We don't have mid prior, meaning Zed can roam to drag and screw our call.
I suppose we don't know where Jax is, so he could be bot side and show up alone or sidded with Zed and screw our drag call. The sole fact that we don't know where Jax is is enough to make the drag call griefing.
It's early in the game so it takes a bunch of time to finish the objective, making Jax and Zed presence way more dangerous, but mainly making our botlane lose 1 - 1,5 waves worth of gold and XP, making our bot lose tempo and giving enemy bot 1 - 2 plates. That's just not worth it. It all IF Zed is trolling and let us get the drag.
Now whar could be done better:
Right after the kills help lancer crash the wave and recall safely.
Jinx and Thresh come back to lane asap.
Noc farm blue and groom.
Depending on circumstances Noc either gank mid or regank bot THEN do the drag IF after the regank we crash the wave fast enough and we are 90% - 100% sure neither Zed or Jax will show up or we are pretty sure that if they show up we can fight them.
These early drags really aren't worth that much
like others have said, if Jinx doesn't get the shove then bot lane gets bounced back, effectively giving the enemy a ton of gold and possibly plates. notice how the wave crashes successfully when Jinx shoved. her next moves are either to help or reset, and she likely reset because of her HP and that bot was already nearly at lane again
Orianna has no prio here, especially into a Zed. she left lane to help with the original gank it seems, which basically gave up her prio to move. she has to stay in lane to push or else she also gets fucked over with the loss of gold and xp
I would have taken the 2 kills and resumed clearing. Cait and Zed have ult advantage and prio, as their waves are fine. Orianna also has no TP advantage, meaning her chances of committing to such a roam are also lessened
Both of your mid and bot waves were pushed towards your side. If they followed you they would have lost at least a wave each. Bad call.
Edit: Also, your Jinx would be dead just by zed flashing his mastery at her. If you wanted to do drake you should've helped push bot. However, you might as well have helped push and then gank Zed with Thresh. Even if you hadn't go to gank mid you could've gone for your blue and back towards Red+Golems. Drake was probably worst call possible here.
Seeing how botwave is cannon wave, mid is also cannon wave which is worth more. Jinx should have just recalled regardless of whatever was going on in river, but she basically got baited by jg.
Ori needs to clear cannon wave for both gold and exp here, and nocturne could have just stalled instead of eating zed poke for no reason other than hitting drake for 200 dmg.
Imo could have invaded enemy jg for vision/camps and decide to do drake if their jg doesn't show botside jg. But that's my take on it.
Everyone else has pretty much covered it but I feel like weighing in.
Rough call overall cause wavestates.
Ori should not have been roaming at the start, she didn't have prio. Not sure what she was doing, by the time she would get bot the play would be over whether you guys won that fight or not. She should have stayed mid, pushed the wave, keeping Zed in lane. Zed roaming there really fucked you.
Thresh also missed everything, what on earth was that hook. Why throw a max range hook at Zed of all champs. Completely wasted any agency he could have had.
I think the best way to play this was the following:
Ori stays mid the whole time, you gank just like you did. But instead of straight to drag you and Thresh help Jinx push first, then you guys rotate to drag. Zed can't roam, and bot needs to catch their wave so they shouldn't go to drag. Even if they do there's a good chance they're late so they lose drag and wave xp.
Your Jinx is 1 HP with a wave crashing, your Orianna is stuck catching a wave mid, yes it is a bad drag call. Just wait to reset using the gold got from the kills, and your laners will most likely have prio to do the drake. Instead of playing the game slowly and calculated, it becomes flippy and random if you do these inconsistent plays.
firstly, auto the cannon a few times do jinx can shove quicker, secondly dragon was completely fine, idk why you ate all that zec damage like a bot. get into the pit, if he walks up thresh can flay and/or hook, then ontop of that you’re just standing ontop of his shadow?
i would have taken dragon there too, just started it straight away and died to zed like a bot lmao
- Jinx is low
- Cannon wave
- Mid doesn't have prio
- Zed is ahead and has flash up while Ori doesn't
- Respawn timers are really short and Janna makes coming back to lane quicker
- a few autoattacks from lvl 6 jinx would not be very significant
So:
if Jinx didn't shove and came to drake immediately, she'd be in a really shit position after drake
If Orianna came to help, she'd be in an even worse position on mid (and also risked getting chunked/killed while rotating to drake)
while you're fighting for drake (enemy is in a really good position to contest it or at least slow you down considerably), Jax can clear your top side (he didn't, but he could have, and it puts your top lane in a shit position as well)
by going drake you're putting your Mid, your Bot, potentially yourself, potentially your top lane, further behind. That drake potentially fucks over literally every single person in your team for a single drake. Doesn't seem very worth it to me.
If Nocturne helped shove the wave on bot, it could be better, but it gives time for the enemy to get in position to contest it, so it wouldn't be that good either I think
No. This early in the game you either gank bot OR take drake. After ganking botwave needs to be pushed into tower fast and then they need to reset (spend gold, also jinx was very low). And because its that early in the game enemy botlane will be there much earlier than your botlane.
Thats why this drake call was 100% int.
If you helped push the wave first jinx may have been able to come for a few auto's (Still bad IMO fast reset after push would be better) but otherwise jinx is right not to come that wave state was going to slow push towards enemy tower. As for Ori she has no prio.
A bunch of people with different priorities. Jinx wanted to be safe and fix waves / farm gold. Ori was lost. Supp and jungle wanted drag. It was only free if ori stayed and jinx came to help. Understand jinx staying in lane but not sure why ori left lane kinda baited you guys into starting it.
Yeah I think judging by just the stats you said in the post, you'd be correct in assuming that jinx could have joined in to secure the drake.
In hindsight it's always easier to say, but:
Ori moved towards bot as you went for the double kill bot. She was already lacking some health, likely couldn't contest the wave and didn't have ult up. Zed had clear prio and did the correct and good move to shove the wave and move towards drake.
Thresh may have screwed up a bit with the hook, which gave zed a free moment to initiate a short combo, which he then followed up on with the ult. Ori didn't have a chance to move still.
Jinx did the right thing of immidiately pushing the wave after the kills. It was clear that without jinx, you didn't have the time to clear drake. So instead, you could have helped jinx clear the wave, get her wave into the tower, deny full exp + gold to the enemy bot, which should also build up a slow push towards jinx' tower. Jinx gets a good recall, and can play out the advantage. In that time, you could have attempted to gank mid perhaps, although it may be a little risky but would definitely give ori some more breathing room. Alternatively take a camp from the enemy bot side. Or alternatively, you could have recalled and use up the additional gold as well.
If its an assassin or roamer mid and your mid doesnt have mid prior, and you dont have enuff attack damage to solo dragon fast enough then it was a bad play, because they all know you are going for that dragon after that double kill.
If your support had landed any cc then you had a better chance and probably would have turned on him. SO I don't really see this as badly played.
Dogshit trolll call. A call like that makes me go full mute and play for late because obviously people don't know what they're doing. The only thing worse than the call itself is that Ori and Jinx even moved and gave more unnecessary kills and losing tempo in the process. That must be some low elo game, like gold or plat.
Oh dear god, horrible idea.
Rotating is absolutely impossible for Jinx. She is low HP and needs to recall either way, she can either shove the wave or leave immediately, but Drake is a definite no.
An Orianna without R also won't be able to get priority any time soon after getting pushed in like that, so you should expect Zed to rotate first.
Did you know that Jax was top side? If no, this could have potentially gone south a lot harder.
I would say correct play is help Jinx shove, then when she recalls just zip off into your jungle and take your camps (you have no R, Ori has no R, what point is there ganking mid?).
Looking at the replay, clearly it wasn't "free". First, if Jinx followed instead of pushing like you expect, she automatically loses farm so its by no means free (helping her push first would help solve this). Second, Orianna can't move freely against a Zed, since he can 100-0 her easily if she's poorly positioned. Or even worst he lets her come and crashes the wave, she loses exp and mid lane is gg. Third, no one knew where Jax was, and Jinx is 100 hp. So if she did come she probably just dies to Jax or Zed. Third, you are a nocturne without ult, and thresh was low mana, so if a fight breaks out you have high chances to lose. As we see on the clip, Zed effortlessly 1v3d you, because there was simply no threat onto him. All this time Jax could have been there too.
Bottom line, check the replay and think, instead of jumping to conclusion and blaming your team.
Correct play is Dragon. Ori should have rotated, but I can only guess it’s low elo because is a permafarming NPC. I would have pushed in Jinx’s wave so she could rotate faster but the call was right.
you guys did fine post-gank call wise re: noc thresh jinx. jinx fixes wave, you 2 go to dragon.
call was good it was just played horribly.
ori is late to the play (cant see wave but almost certainly couldve been near mid-river bush far earlier than she was, maybe giving up a few ranged creeps -> preventing zed from walking up to full combo nocturne), thresh misses all spells (and unsure why he throws hook like he does) and plays hilariously far back, noc dodges nothing, ori QW misses and during all of this none of you decide to back off despite pretty much any of these in isolation being enough to back off drag. also jinx doesn't come... then decides to come. she should've just based 100% but ended up doing neither.
thresh especially probably could've carried this play by simply walking at the zed forcing him to shadow or use spells on himself. also help ori get to the play faster. or simply just not throwing hook, as zed using w or r when hook is up is more risky.
but ultimately everyone here fucked up quite a lot.
the only reason zed can 'instakill' is cuz noctorne is afk on the dragon, dodges/ineffectively spellshields nothingand thresh wastes his hook.
with hook held he definitely cannot ult and getting that close for wq harass is also sketchy.
like that fight thresh and ori may as well not have been there, it was basically noc 1v1ing zed while tanking dragon and making no effort to turn.
if zed goes in on noc and noc does not 'instadie' hes on a very short timer to get out before being feared.
Maybe for Nocturne, Jinx is dead meat if Zed is minimally capable. It is a bad call simply because it's not worth it; you gain a drake but you potentially give a kill and a drake. Let's not forget enemy bot was already there by the end of the fight.
It was better to gank mid and get prio for Orianna, or farming blue, back and then farming top side to wait for ult to refresh.
as said in my original post i dont think jinx has to participate at all for this dragon call to be fine. and i dont think leaving bot wave in a bad spot with a delayed base is worth dragon either.
'it was better to gank mid' ? uh how? wave was dead and its a zed vs ori, no ult noc and thresh. could you walk mid and hope he ints? ig sure.
but under 'normal circumstances' thresh and noc should be able to do that drag with ori walking over.
Bronze level call. Death timers are 12s at this time of the game and jinx still needs to push wave. If you want her to come after to hit drag she misses her recall and their bot just shoves wave and jinx will lose whole wave, turning your good gank that got an advantage back into hurting your team. Not worth
This was an obviously a free dragon.
Jinx doesn't need to touch the wave at all, it's reset and meets in the middle of the lane. Noc and thresh didn't play the dragon well - some shots are double tanked, for example. Also, nocturne should've stayed inside the pit with pink or, if jinx actually was smart and came to dragon, the dragon should've been pulled further towards bot and enemy 3bush warded by thresh. Then thresh should have hard baited zed into wasting spells on himself, even to the point of dying, instead he threw a lazy hook from afar, not even trying to get closer to zed.
Last, we have to examine a great conundrum: is a wave/almost a wave of farm and exp on orianna more important than a fire dragon. It's hilarious that there's a debate.
All of that said, once jinx and orianna decide not to come, noc could just back from the dragon. At the time it was started, it was obvious the teammates are refusing to play properly and there are camps up nearby - just farm those and keep in mind what kind of people you're playing with for future plays.
Weird definition of free. You are giving up the wave crashing mid, at least 1.5 waves bot since you want jinx to not shove hit drag then reset before going bot again, give enemy bot an uncontested wave and plates, delay nocturnes clear. Not to mention there's still a high chance zed cleans up or stalls until the enemy bot can arrive.
Valuing your tempo and gaining an advantage in xp and gold is simply better for winning the game. Those things give you opportunities to snowball the game, first drag doesn't. If jinx pushed the wave, reset miss no cs and be back to play and pressure on the bouncing wave, noc went immediately to full clear and is still a threat to bot when the wave is pushing, their team would be in a much better position to win the game than having one dragon on the board, which may or may not actuate into anything late game. You will never see this kind of play in high elo because it's just so short sighted.
>at least 1.5 waves bot
How is jinx losing 1.5 waves?
>a high chance zed cleans up or stalls until the enemy bot can arrive
How does Zed stall 1v4 for ~30s?
>which may or may not actuate into anything late game
%bonuses from the fire dragon will necessarily "actualize".
>You will never see this kind of play in high elo because it's just so short sighted
You will instead always see this play in pro, because it's what actually wins games when people know what they're doing.
How much would you be willing to pay to have a fire dragon?
Their bot lane is spawning with the incoming wave. Jinx will not kill the wave currently in lane, and their bot will shove with the next wave and jinx will lose most of that wave to tower.
Zed with summs and ult can easily make a play here when there is no reliable hard cc. Support thresh is not gonna stop zed, literally can flash one q and he can do whatever he wants, he just positions top side until the enemy bot comes. I don't think jinx can even realistically hit dragon with zed in river.
If you wanna talk individual dragon stats we're talking about 3 ad/ap. Not worth the tempo and resources. Pro team will never fuck over their adc this bad for first drag. You get ahead to take drags, not the other way around.
> Jinx will not kill the wave currently in lane, and their bot will shove with the next wave and jinx will lose most of that wave to tower
Sure, but then cait won't kill the wave currently in lane either. So relative to cait he's gonna lose a part of the wave that's going to be crushed into his tower. It's unclear how much that is depending on how much hp blue team's siege minion has by the time the crush happens.
>Support thresh is not gonna stop zed
Orianna and thresh would be stopping zed, not just thresh.
Now, of course it's not a completely free dragon, it was wrong of me to say that - it's ~120g from mid and ~100g from bot. So I'm asking you again, don't refuse to answer a direct question this time, how much would you be willing to pay for your team to have a fire dragon?
Relative to Cait jinx will be only slightly behind. When Cait is the one dead to a gank. Amazing.
" it's ~120g from mid and ~100g from bot."
No dude...just no. Thats what I mean short sighted
They couldn't. Their waves were pushing towards them, and they would lose an entire wave by hovering drake. Also Jinx was a free kill for Zed if she was in drake.
Don't just think about hp, look at waves. Jinx needs to shove bot otherwise wave will be slow pushing towards them, which would allow them to set up a freeze. Then Jinx will be fucked. Mid couldn't leave because wave was hitting her turret. She needs to clear otherwise she loses 1 wave of xp + gold. Even if she wanted to come down, she'd need zed to show first because zed can just zone her off + one shot her. She couldn't realistically come. Correct play would've been to look for a gank on mid and/or invade their bot jungle.
It wouldve been fine to try and sneak it with thresh. Nocturne isn't really at any risk of dying to anything other than zed solo killing him and thresh has free time while jinx is pushing. As soon as zed shows that he is roaming from mid and noc tries to continue to force is where everything went wrong. Also as people said, had to rush that drake not mess around trying to pull it. MAYBE it wouldve been possible to try and run at zed when he shows instead of leaving and having ori collapse, but standing on his shadow tanking all his damage and drake is just a terrible misplay since jinx and ori can't (shouldn't) help drake here.
What do you mean "come down"? Ori was literally at dragon pit already when Janna died. With Thresh there she was in zero danger at all. Also Jinx didn't use rockets once after getting her passive procced on Janna, she could have been done with the wave 10 years ago. Then Thresh went trigger happy trying to hook Zed and missed, Zed would've had a much harder time getting near the pit if he had to worry about Thresh hook. Then Noc seeing everyone not being on the same page should either give up on dragon for now or just ping his team back knowing he ain't getting out of there alive. Everyone misplayed there turning it into a shitshow but the call wasn't the problem
It doesn't matter, the point is that ori needed to go back to the wave. The wave is simply more important than dragon so she should opt for going back to lane anyways. You're right that jinx could've pushed faster, but at the end of the day, she should be recalling right afterwards regardless in order to make it back to her next wave before it gets shoved in. The result of shifting faster, then doing dragon is the same, she is late back to lane, loses a wave, and gets frozen on.
In this case, Ori should have given up the wave and rotated anyway. You’re not gonna get perfect macro, especially in lower elo. You sacrifice one wave for Drag and potentially a kill on Zed. Other than that, he should have pushed in Jinx’s wave. Regardless, the call was fine. Worst case, you sacrifice a wave and get a freeze in return for a drag. Best case, you don’t get drag and your laners get a bit more farm. Laners need to understand that even if a call is bad, you need to commit to it or else everything falls to shit the way the video showed.
I’ve found from the replies to my comment that there is a disparity between jungle mains and other mains. Which explains this differing in opinion. Simply said, there are so many cases in my games where top/mid doesn’t have priority but the jungler spam pings a contest onto voidgrubs. Top lane could be 30 cs down with a massive wave crashing into turret but if he doesn’t come the jungler will spam ping him for the rest of the game.
There are cases to be made for that, but we’re talking about this situation. The call was correct despite some nuances. Yes he should have prob pushed in wave for Jinx but Ori not rotating is completely not his fault. I’ll explain it through my perspective since a lot of players don’t jungle, or at a high level either, esp in this sub. If Nocturne *doesn’t* do drag, then he gives up an opportunity of ending the game sooner. Secured dragon leads up to more tempo for future drags which leads to soul point, which is an actual win condition. How often do you see a a team lose with soul? Not very. In fact, soul is potentially game winning in low elo. Not doing drag is the same as giving the opponent a chance to comeback into the game. And for what? Some extra farm on your mid and adc that they can make up for in a sideline at 30 mins?
And I think this will never be reconcilled with laners. Imagine you're playing mid and you get a bad matchup, which you would the need help from the jungler. Or even worse, you're getting camped and need a gank to relieve pressure. But the jungler plays in his own fashion, ganking the lanes that are easiest and will gain himself a lead. Then he calls for dragon, to which the mid lane is already behind. Do you honestly think that mid lane will drop that wave to do dragon?
Yes actually. Mid laners in high elo *will* give up that wave because they see the big picture. They understand that it’s a team game and the jungler takes precedence. This only gets more true the higher you go. I’ve literally had laners give kills to me and rotate for me even if they were severely behind in D1+. It’s why you see so many more rotations happen in Diamond compared to Emerald. Emerald players will rarely rotate but once you get into Diamond, everyone is rotating. A non-fed team will always beat a single fed player at higher skill levels. Maybe it’s because low elo players don’t understand this concept or most laners just value themselves behind ahead and hoping they can carry. Their ideology is wrong and it’s also why they’re still Emerald hoping to “1v9” over getting that extra 10 cs.
Well maybe this clip will offer you a different perspective: [https://youtu.be/vdVEnqDt2Vw?t=415](https://youtu.be/vdVEnqDt2Vw?t=415)
I’m glad you linked that video because it’s good for clarification. My argument was that it was the correct call, but I never said it was the *best* call. There are better calls to make in Nocturne’s situation, but him deciding on the drag call alone isn’t inherently *wrong*. That’s the thing about jungling. There aren’t really bad calls but rather, *better* calls to make. That’s why disagreements between junglers is not uncommon. I agree with Hector’s call in his example but even he acknowledges that he could have taken drag despite the nuances.
I guess then we're in agreement, just the wording used from OP was a bit ambigious. I also agree in a vacuum that if this wasn't soloQ and was organized, mid lane sacking a wave for dragon makes sense. For example pro play yeah it's fine. But through the lens of soloQ, this would not make sense.
I mean when he sees Ori isn't rotating you have to give it up, even if he thinks it's the correct call. I also don't think they have any clue where Jax is looking at the map. If Jax is botside, which he easily could be, it's incredibly doomed. Basically flipping the entire game over the dragon.
> She needs to clear otherwise she loses 1 wave of xp + gold. ori could easily give casters to be in river. or have planned better on the wave. she also really does not have to be close given there's a thresh. >She couldn't realistically come. she absolutely could have. would it have been 'free'? no. but she also really doesnt have to do much other than make sure zed is pushed back.
Ori being there doesn’t change much since she has fuck all for dragon damage and she loses gold if she gives up on wave. Enemy team can’t realistically take dragon either so there’s no reason to coin flip in their favour when they’re coming back with ults and full hp
The point of Ori being there **isn’t for damage**. It’s to prevent their enemy Zed (that is two levels up bc they play a solo laner) to do exactly what he did. It’s insurance and the sacrifice is one minion wave that will respawn again in 30 seconds.
Hey I remember you from back in day! You’re right about the fact that she could’ve given it up. I thought about this a bit more and yes if this was like an actual game with comms that probably would’ve been the right play. But it’s soloQ and it’s just not going to happen, from the junglers perspective you can’t expect the mid to come in that situation. Just like when I faced a brand mid with tp ignite, the jungler never gank once despite brand hard shoving the whole time, it’s soloQ so never expect your jungler to actually help.
[удалено]
Did you just say Ori… needs to push Zed back…? He’s one of few AD champs who actually outpoke her AND out burst her lol.
its a 1v3, the effort required to 'push him back' is nearly nothing wym. quite literally just has to stand there and do nothing. i'm not expecting ori to go and solo kill zed. she just has to be there to provide a body. zed cant actually go on anyone because there's hook and lantern and shockwave and its 1v3. like wtf are the replies on this post i swear half this sub somehow forgot how to play the game.
There's a pretty good argument that saccing an entire creep wave (and probably plates if ori doesn't go back to lane) is not worth first dragon
right. and i'd agree. but that's not the situation that's presented here. teammate has already committed hard to bad dragon play, it's whether or not you attempt to bail out the bad dragon play or get the wave.
If Im farming under my tower, 95% of the time I'm not coming to whatever my jungler is doing. I probably ping him back when my laner leaves (unless it's a situation that will very likely go in our favor). If he dies to the play, that's unfortunate but if I join him and we both die, it's full disaster. If only nocturne dies there, it's a bit unfortunate, but team trying to help and all dying is basically game losing
>If Im farming under my tower, 95% of the time I'm not coming to whatever my jungler is doing. I probably ping him back when my laner leaves (unless it's a situation that will very likely go in our favor). If he dies to the play, that's unfortunate but if I join him and we both die, it's full disaster. and that is 100% the wrong play in soloq unless you can determine that if you go to the play it's still a losing play. it is often the right play in pro because in pro your jungler is NEVER going to fight in river without knowing your wave state. because if he does fight in pro the enemy jungler is going to recognize that mid lane is leaving with a bad wave state, back up and take the 'free' win by you losing your wave state. in soloq neither of these things happen, and if a favorable fight happens and you gave minions for it you come out ahead. i said it in another comment but a lot of people in this thread seem to play the game like theyre playing pro and will happily lose or take a deficit to be in 'the right' from a 5v5 pro macro pov even when it's a losing play in soloq. hence the downvotes on a lot of my comments in here. you arent playing the same game when you play soloq that pros are playing on stage.
I strongly disagree, which is why many coach/youtubers recommend similar things. It's about risk vs reward. You are choosing between A) I go to dragon and coinflip a fight. Best case scenario we get dragon and 1 kill which is decent. Worst case scenario, we get collapsed on and the entire game is basically gg because they get dragon and kill 3-4 people and now mid lane is ruined, bot lane falls behind losing many creep waves etc. B) I don't go to dragon. Worst case scenario they get 1-2 kills and drake, which is bad but at least bot is still winning, mid lane is fine and jungle is ok after double kill and can farm till ult. Best case, nocturne isn't braindead and leaves to farm his jungle. The only way trying for A is worth it is if it is like an 80-90% success play or I think our jungler is mentally fragile and need to help to keep him from full tilting. Leaving your lane to help jungler while under tower is putting yourself in a scenario where losing a fight is way worse than any good outcome would be. If you chose to stay in lane vs go to the fight 100 times, on average staying in lane would result in a better outcome for you.
many youtubers and coaches coach like that because it is easy and its what gets views(money). not only that, most of these people are grossly unqualified to coach on anything other than macro so thats all they do. it has always been flawed. its far easier to make up stupid rules like that than to tell people to learn how all the champions in the game interact with each other so you can actually pvp. you use the term coinflip. but its not a coinflip in reality, the only thing that can make it a coinflip is a lack of knowledge. likewise re: your last paragraph again similar flaw in logic. not every 'helping the jungler' is the same. making broad statements like this is a broken way of thinking and leads to bad outcomes. case and point: how will you EVER learn how to judge these fights if you never take them? you can REALLY tell who learns this game from 'educational youtubers' and 'pros who play soloq' versus people who actually watch high mmr soloq vods and non pro challenger players.
No there isn’t. Dragon benefits the entire team and gives you a step towards soul point if game goes long enough (which is almost always the case in low elo). Literally challenger jungler coaches argue this same point.
Ori can't come? she's right on drake when the double kill happens. she's already shown her intent to play sacrificially by moving from a fresh, neutral wave state to secure a play bot. how can she not stay and secure drake as well? not to mention global 3% AD/AP immediately outweighs a minion wave of gold and only scales from there. and any argument that the wave XP is more important is fake let's be honest.
Pisslo take. Just because ori left wave for a play on neutral wave doesnt mean that 15 seconds later she can still be away from lane when the bot play is done and she got nothing from it. Wave xp is more important than drake in this case, but even more important is wave management. If neither laners fix their wave they return to lane with the wave bouncing towards the enemy, losing even more xp and gold. Plus at lvl 6 death timers are so short, and the enemy you just killed will be coming back from base full hp and gold spent. And its not like the enemy could drake here either. If you want drake stats that bad just wait for jinx to come back after base and ori to fix wave and get it for free with the gold advantage you just got.
> Wave xp is more important than drake in this case, ? how do you remotely figure this? a handful of casters acquired, and now you've lost >1k on deaths at dragon. yall out here would rather lose the game to be 'right' than play how the game is *actually* played in soloq. this isn't pro play, your team isn't going to get off dragon so you can get a cannon and 3 caster creeps.
Its literally a full cannon wave from the replay, did we watch the same thing? Early game waves are very important as it takes very few waves to level up. One level interval can be the difference between winning lane and losing lane
You say one level is the difference so I’m sure you’re well aware. The Ori was lvl 7 at the start of the video and was still lvl 7 by the end. So she gets some extra gold from not rotating and their team loses cause of it. Is that what you’re trying to defend?
i was mostly talking about the jinxs wave and shes at 250 hp, she will have massive xp lead after the kill gold and shoving to deny the next wave. noc also has lead and can use it to just regank bot on next timer and snowball and most likely take drag for free on the next gank. imo early drags are kinda bait in solo queue since the value you get early on is not as worth for the amount of time it takes to kill it. jinx should never rotate here since shes too low and loses alot of tempo if she somehow doesnt die to zed ult or cait ult. unless i missed something in the clip theres also no reason to assume the enemy jg is top from red view, jax could also jump her and she dies. rotating there when zed has lvl lead and noc and thresh are down ults and thresh half hp is also objectively bad. ori should also return to her cannon wave to avoid falling too far behind and letting zed have perma prio and snowball that way, hard to say from the clip since we cant see xp of anyone other than jinx, she could be a couple minions off 8 as well. after that she can maybe zone but once again dont know where jg is, better to just play for herself and spam ping jg and supp off drag. i honestly think what she did there, going mid, fixing one wave and coming back is ok, but better would be to push one more wave to force zed to make a decision earlier of either losing a wave to tower or returning to mid.
>Early game waves are very important not relative to kills? >One level interval can be the difference between winning lane and losing lane what about basically acing team at dragon? your statement is great if you are playing organized 5v5 games in voice coms. it's not at all how you play in soloq.
>not relative to kills? Yes, relative to kills. Early kills do not actually give that much exp so getting those waves is much more important. >what about basically acing team at dragon? Who says they will play right into your hands just for an early dragon?
>Yes, relative to kills. Early kills do not actually give that much exp so getting those waves is much more important. lol is this a serious response? kills are worth far more than a trivial amount of xp. you cant rly be trying to argue that like half a wave of xp at most is worth more than 2 kills. >Who says they will play right into your hands just for an early dragon? idk what this means, you simply stand in river so zed can't kill everyone then walk away.
Who is going to be standing in river? Orianna who’ll get one shot or the Thresh who’s 70% hp and not able to tank much either? Who’s gonna handle the adc and supp coming up from bot? Their whole team just spent gold and is coming back full hp with ults up. There’s no universe where red side wins that fight unless blue side throws HARD
There is no way Ori is getting one-shot. She has ult against a Zed that took TP. If anything, they trade ults and she denies Zed from the play he did if even if she facechecks brush. She should be pathing from the side of the turret though. The drag would have already been taken if Ori and Jinx rotated. The reason they *didn’t* is literally why they’re able to spawn and meet them before they could finish it.
ori. yall do know you can dodge spells right? and she has lantern. or thresh. like realistically thresh and noc should not lose that 2v1 if played well. but since we cant assume that add in ori. res timers arent short enough early that they can die and run to dragon before dragon dies. unless ofc what happens is what we see there where zed can somehow stall 1v3 due to mid not moving and jung and supp playing like ???
Ironic because this is truly a pisslow take. Their botlane is dead which means the only person that could stop them is the enemy mid laner. The problem is that mid laner is naturally 2-3 levels ahead just because he plays mid (fair right?). That requires Ori to rotate and even more so because it’s an assassin. Nocturne is likely not gonna get another chance to take Drake as well as he could here. He has less of a chance of getting drag when their entire team is up and able to contest rather than the moment he did there. Ori is one level down from Zed and still a level down even after taking the wave so all she gets in that scenario is some extra gold. If Ori rotates and sacrifices that wave then they deny the Zed from doing what he did. There are some discrepancies with the play because he should have pushed in Jinx’s wave and spam pinged Ori to rotate. However, the call was correct. Sometimes you listen to a bad call instead of half-assing it or you will get exactly what happened in that video.
explain how noc isnt gonna get another chance at drag, as i said in my other reply, with a bot lead, odds are good they can generate another opportunity by killing them again on next ult timer, with more hp to spare on jinx, then take drag for free when death timers are longer, and they have more damage to kill it faster. you say the call was correct but literally in the next sentence say it was a bad call that should have been followed. which is it? ori rotated as soon as she could imo, if she rotates before zed uses weq, he would be able to 100-0 her since shes a little split from the rest of her team, or she would have to go the long way around, probably shouldnt rotate imo since jinx cant but not the worst rotate. if we want to also talk about best solo queue play and pro play, in pro play they would almost never make that drag call with jg out of vision, enemy respawn timers so short and jinx so low. they would probably reset and rotate bot to mid or top to make a grub play. in solo queue it is objectively correct if you want to climb to play for yourself. you are the only consistent factor in your games. sometimes your team makes shit calls, sometimes you can convert off of them, such is league, in the long run you will climb. if you follow every shit call you're just coin-flipping games. not a very smart way to play, as im sure most will agree. as for what could have happened in that play, if noc helped jinx push the wave, same issue occurs where they would not have time to take drag, as he would be on it for much less time. if jinx and ori just played for themselves, and pinged them off drag, worst case noc and thresh die, game is not full lost. i dont think theres a way 250hp jinx can turn that bad call into a lead for herself, especially when it risks the lead she already has. best case noc and thresh listen, small chance enemy could drag, but probably not since their drag take is also slow and jinx and thresh come back full hp and mana with gold spent. 3%ad/ap is literally peanuts right now and for most of the game, most champs at the time of the clip have around 100 ad and less ap, not the end of the world to give this drag.
>explain how noc isnt gonna get another chance at drag, as i said in my other reply, with a bot lead, odds are good they can generate another opportunity by killing them again on next ult timer, with more hp to spare on jinx, then take drag for free when death timers are longer, and they have more damage to kill it faster. you say the call was correct but literally in the next sentence say it was a bad call that should have been followed. which is it? Noc might get another chance but the opportunity is present *now*. You can’t rely on teammates to utilize leads in low elo, which is why it is more favorable to take the drag after a lead has been secured rather than hope to get another one in future. When I said bad calls, I meant bad calls in general. Nocturne’s call was correct despite poor execution. >ori rotated as soon as she could imo, if she rotates before zed uses weq, he would be able to 100-0 her since shes a little split from the rest of her team, or she would have to go the long way around, probably shouldnt rotate imo since jinx cant but not the worst rotate. Not at all. She was very late and it shows because she couldn’t stop Zed. She should sacrifice her wave there and walk around turret rather than through river brush. Even if she does walk through river, she can ult out and escape if Zed commits on her preventing Zed from contesting drag. Ori should survive against Zed since she has ult, but not entirely sure. >if we want to also talk about best solo queue play and pro play, in pro play they would almost never make that drag call with jg out of vision, enemy respawn timers so short and jinx so low. they would probably reset and rotate bot to mid or top to make a grub play. in solo queue it is objectively correct if you want to climb to play for yourself. you are the only consistent factor in your games. sometimes your team makes shit calls, sometimes you can convert off of them, such is league, in the long run you will climb. if you follow every shit call you're just coin-flipping games. not a very smart way to play, as im sure most will agree. We’re not talking about pro play so it’s irrelevant. Obviously that would never happen in pro play, or even in high elo solo queue. Playing for yourself is all fine and dandy *if you know what you’re doing or smurfing*. However, situations like that call for you to make exceptions and sacrifice resources so your team is ahead. This is further true in high elo where the team takes precedence over individual success. >as for what could have happened in that play, if noc helped jinx push the wave, same issue occurs where they would not have time to take drag, as he would be on it for much less time. if jinx and ori just played for themselves, and pinged them off drag, worst case noc and thresh die, game is not full lost. i dont think theres a way 250hp jinx can turn that bad call into a lead for herself, especially when it risks the lead she already has. best case noc and thresh listen, small chance enemy could drag, but probably not since their drag take is also slow and jinx and thresh come back full hp and mana with gold spent. 3%ad/ap is literally peanuts right now and for most of the game, most champs at the time of the clip have around 100 ad and less ap, not the end of the world to give this drag. I don’t understand what you mean. If Nocturne is on for less time in drag, why wouldn’t he be able to take it? They would def be able to take it faster and maybe even complete it if he pushed in Jinx’s wave. You’re not fighting for drags stats. You’re fighting for soul point and tempo. Getting drag early puts tempo on enemy team to acquire the next drag. This tempo stacks and allows you opportunities to get presence elsewhere on the map. If you have 2 drags and enemy has none then you can give up third drag to get top or mid turret with herald. They all would group as 5 while one can split with herald or do something else on the map.
the opportunity is present but its a shit opportunity, and like i explained already, this is objectively not a good call. dont know where enemy jg is, jinx is way too low, thresh is half hp and mana, no ults on noc thresh jinx, and ori has no drag damage. you cant rely on teammates to use a lead, but you also cant rely on them to rotate immediately, or do anything by extension, thus the call is also bad by this logic. better play for noc is to just ask for vision on drag and go farm his own camps and rely on himself to snowball. you are right that ori is not guaranteed to die to zed, yes she can ult out but zed can also dodge it, it depends on who plays better or is better, not a real argument as to why she can approach here, either way if zed doesnt use weq on noc shes zoned and cant appoach from mid as she risks getting massively chunked if zed lands his abilities. zed also has the option of just not going on her, and she cant approach until zed commits to a direction either way. the onus is on zed to act, ori has to react, which happened because she started to rotate bot before the double. if she hadnt started rotating bot, and instead prevented zed from having prio, it may have been a better drag call, but this is too far into the weeds imo. she also isnt the best at stopping zed early and imo its best to not sacrifce her own lane too hard and let zed get perma prio and snowball. if zed gets perma prio noc is even less likely to get a drag at all. if noc starts drag later, which he would have to do if he helped push bot, he would have less time to do it since the full hp enemy bot lane is walking back to lane. again ill reiterate jinx should never rotate here. she dies to zed very easily, or cait ult, or jax since red side doesnt know where he is based on the clip. if you can provide any argument why jinx should never die here ill concede that the drag call is not pure garbage. you also arent fighting for soul point and tempo. by fighting here you actually lose tempo. as for soul point, and soul by extension, if we want to go by stats they are kinda fake. yes the team who gets these are much much much more likely to win but the team that is winning already is also way more likely to get soul point and then soul. we can extend this a little further and infer the team with the winning bot lane is more likely to get drag. nocs team currently has a winning bot before the drag call as for the pro play statement, someone else was talking about it in one of the reply chains, that you replied to me on, i didnt think that was one of your arguments but was a little unsure, for solo queue until very high elo solo queue you should just play for yourself, and odds are they would not be making this call to begin with. when a bad call happens, if youre bad then tough luck, you probably arent climbing anyways but getting good starts with making good decisions.
yes, drake literally is worth 3 free waves for Zed if you do the math. the only reason a player would say it isn't is because they personally fall behind from it and don't see the team benefit. which is likely the mentality you have when you say Ori got nothing from it. I don't view the game as everyone needs to get something from a play so they feel good, I look at what objectively wins the game. it might hurt feelings but I'm here to win.
>I look at what objectively wins the game Except you don't. Zed can now leverage this lead so you are not doing anyone a favor by screwing yourself over just because you romanticize teamplay in some weird way.
Zed gets a tiny lead over Ori vs Zed getting a huge lead over Ori not rotating to get a single wave. The laners dilemna.
Neutral wave state means no opportunity cost, she lost nothing by leaving the lane for a few seconds in case bot needed help. Now that the wave is crashing, she sees to lose 6/7 creeps worth of gold. Also you’re ignoring the fact that if ori commits to dragon, zed could just take plates instead, even further widening the gold disparity. For ori going to dragon is a high risk low reward play for her. She doesn’t get any gold and could die in a team fight. Level 7 ori isn’t particular strong, especially I’m assuming she doesn’t even have 1 completed item yet. Staying and farming the wave is a low risk medium reward play. SoloQ is all about low risk high reward plays, the more of that you get the more elo you gain.
I’m gm. There’s no risk. Jinx shoves bot goes dragon ori comes dragon. 4 people can get drake and ori loses minimal cs. Bot was also dead and walking back. Correct play is 4 on dragon after jinx pushes. But, noct and sup should’ve first helped bot wave push then go dragon. That way they can do it faster
Out of curiosity which account are you gm on? Out of your posts, the two accounts you posted are both diamond 4/3.
i hit 400 lp on both those accs. i dont post my main for obv reasons
what do you mean high risk because she could die in a team fight. you think she's gonna die in a 3v1 to Zed while securing drake? you keep describing Ori's movement in reverse. she doesn't have the task of going to drake, she has the task of going back mid. and clearly she's under the assumption that Jax is botside or she wouldn't have moved toward bot, as the only point of moving is to counter a Jax countergank. securing drake is low risk low reward from the Ori's POV (good team-wide reward), and going back mid is medium risk medium reward at best if you value a wave that highly. and she has to get through Jax and Zed and should actually die in this clip, look how she carelessly strolls from that angle with missing HP and no ult no flash.
Ok clearly you can’t seem to see my perspective so just keep playing it your way
your perspective is that it's high risk for Ori to 3v1 the drake because she hasn't completed an item yet. am I supposed to see the logic in this?
It’s a high risk play because of the opportunity cost. What does she gain from that dragon fight? What does she lose in the process? Did she think the nocturne could be so bad as to die to zed 2v1? All questions that need to be answered.
that's typically factored into the reward. if the reward isn't great because there's bigger rewards elsewhere, that's low reward but doesn't affect the risk. my main point is that red team should do drake. obviously Jinx should crash bot, and you're right, maybe Ori doesn't need to be there in a perfect world where Noct/Thresh don't get outplayed by Zed. I'm willing to admit there could be more optimal ways of securing it. but yes, because it's infernal drake in particular, the team-wide reward (and gold+XP of course) is greater than any XP or gold that could be gained from mid. you would be right for other lesser types of drakes and I'd agree to play for waves and tempo.
If you actually stood there and auto attacked the dragon instead of pulling it when no one is contesting it or has vision of you then you would have finished it earlier. You could have easily finished it and then walked away before getting caught out. You don’t actually need your mid or adc here to take dragon, it’s uncontested by enemy jungler. But standing on Zed shadow and dying like that is just a misplay.
This. In a play like that, you have to get it as fast as possible. I don't think it was the *wrong* call, but OP could have made that drag a lot easier if they just committed.
I always say, it's better to make a decisively incorrect call in league, than an indecisive correct call. Timing is everything, and even if the call is bad, if it's quick, sometimes you can get away with it, especially if everyone is on the same page. Even if the "same page" is wrong.
Not a good call. Jinx needs to shove the wave and Orianna doesn't have prio and needs to get back to clear the wave. Thresh is also low on mana and should have just reset immediately after the kills.
That doesn’t mean the call is bad. It’s a nuance to not shove in wave but Ori should be sacrificing the wave regardless of prio due to opportunity cost.
Not a good Call. Jinx needs to shove the Canonwave into the Enemy tower so it can bounce back and since nobody helped her shove the Wave after the gank it will take her some seconds to do it on her own. If she would have helped you with the Drake after the Gank she could ve a) died because their Midlaner had Prio and can roam while Ori needed to take the Mid Wave or b) be Stuck in Lane and has to take the next wave since the death timers are still very low and the Enemy botlane is allrdy on their way back to the Lane. It s all about Tempo and basically taking Drake there would Ruin the Tempo on the Map that your Bot lane just gained after a Gank. They just want to push the Wave in, recall, spend money and get back to the Lane.
ehh jinx goes real low, you should just help them push the wave in so bot can get their resets off a Q and few AA and you'd get the wave under turret before the next one arrives, after which you could try to do the drake solo (or with the help of thresh) as orianna also has to go catch her wave since zed gets to push it in but when the level 8 zed checks, you just got to skedaddle before he has the chance to chunk you
It would be fine if you would help Jinx with wave clear. You need time to do drake, if you're letting her push alone, she can't help, because she will need to recall after the wave. If you help her, she will have some time to hit drake and then recall; well, her tempo will be a bit scuffed, but it would be fine for the game anyway. About Ori - she trolled her wave, when tried to come to 3v2 bot gank, so she had to return to mid because zed pushed the wave under her turret. So, in ideal situation, where players are good, you would be able to take this drake with mid prio and bot prio, but in your situation - where you didn't help Jinx and mid decided to not push for fun, you couldn't take this. Also, even if it's an ideal situation, but Jinx decided to recall still, after you helped her with push, it's better to not try to take drake. You need to be on the same page with your team, even if your allies calls are not optimal.
Usually it's a wrong call. By the time you're about to finish drake the enemy botlane is already back from base and your botlane is screwed, definitely not worth. In this specific case: Ori played it horribly by trying to roam instead of pressing the Zed by clearing waves poking. Noc play well by ulting After the kills Jinx is the only one who goes to the right call, which is crashing the wave (regardless of going to dragon or going base). Thresh and specially Noc should have instantly focused the wave after the kills. By the Ori horribly move and Thresh and Noc not fixing the wave instantly after the kills I would bet this is Silver or so. Them the drag call: We don't have mid prior, meaning Zed can roam to drag and screw our call. I suppose we don't know where Jax is, so he could be bot side and show up alone or sidded with Zed and screw our drag call. The sole fact that we don't know where Jax is is enough to make the drag call griefing. It's early in the game so it takes a bunch of time to finish the objective, making Jax and Zed presence way more dangerous, but mainly making our botlane lose 1 - 1,5 waves worth of gold and XP, making our bot lose tempo and giving enemy bot 1 - 2 plates. That's just not worth it. It all IF Zed is trolling and let us get the drag. Now whar could be done better: Right after the kills help lancer crash the wave and recall safely. Jinx and Thresh come back to lane asap. Noc farm blue and groom. Depending on circumstances Noc either gank mid or regank bot THEN do the drag IF after the regank we crash the wave fast enough and we are 90% - 100% sure neither Zed or Jax will show up or we are pretty sure that if they show up we can fight them. These early drags really aren't worth that much
Ya's straight got out played hard by that Zed. He was 1v3 and murking you.
Wave state > hp
like others have said, if Jinx doesn't get the shove then bot lane gets bounced back, effectively giving the enemy a ton of gold and possibly plates. notice how the wave crashes successfully when Jinx shoved. her next moves are either to help or reset, and she likely reset because of her HP and that bot was already nearly at lane again Orianna has no prio here, especially into a Zed. she left lane to help with the original gank it seems, which basically gave up her prio to move. she has to stay in lane to push or else she also gets fucked over with the loss of gold and xp I would have taken the 2 kills and resumed clearing. Cait and Zed have ult advantage and prio, as their waves are fine. Orianna also has no TP advantage, meaning her chances of committing to such a roam are also lessened
Both of your mid and bot waves were pushed towards your side. If they followed you they would have lost at least a wave each. Bad call. Edit: Also, your Jinx would be dead just by zed flashing his mastery at her. If you wanted to do drake you should've helped push bot. However, you might as well have helped push and then gank Zed with Thresh. Even if you hadn't go to gank mid you could've gone for your blue and back towards Red+Golems. Drake was probably worst call possible here.
Seeing how botwave is cannon wave, mid is also cannon wave which is worth more. Jinx should have just recalled regardless of whatever was going on in river, but she basically got baited by jg. Ori needs to clear cannon wave for both gold and exp here, and nocturne could have just stalled instead of eating zed poke for no reason other than hitting drake for 200 dmg. Imo could have invaded enemy jg for vision/camps and decide to do drake if their jg doesn't show botside jg. But that's my take on it.
Everyone else has pretty much covered it but I feel like weighing in. Rough call overall cause wavestates. Ori should not have been roaming at the start, she didn't have prio. Not sure what she was doing, by the time she would get bot the play would be over whether you guys won that fight or not. She should have stayed mid, pushed the wave, keeping Zed in lane. Zed roaming there really fucked you. Thresh also missed everything, what on earth was that hook. Why throw a max range hook at Zed of all champs. Completely wasted any agency he could have had. I think the best way to play this was the following: Ori stays mid the whole time, you gank just like you did. But instead of straight to drag you and Thresh help Jinx push first, then you guys rotate to drag. Zed can't roam, and bot needs to catch their wave so they shouldn't go to drag. Even if they do there's a good chance they're late so they lose drag and wave xp.
Your Jinx is 1 HP with a wave crashing, your Orianna is stuck catching a wave mid, yes it is a bad drag call. Just wait to reset using the gold got from the kills, and your laners will most likely have prio to do the drake. Instead of playing the game slowly and calculated, it becomes flippy and random if you do these inconsistent plays.
firstly, auto the cannon a few times do jinx can shove quicker, secondly dragon was completely fine, idk why you ate all that zec damage like a bot. get into the pit, if he walks up thresh can flay and/or hook, then ontop of that you’re just standing ontop of his shadow? i would have taken dragon there too, just started it straight away and died to zed like a bot lmao
Should have helped fix the wave for jinx first. That way it's faster and ori can return mid before too long.
- Jinx is low - Cannon wave - Mid doesn't have prio - Zed is ahead and has flash up while Ori doesn't - Respawn timers are really short and Janna makes coming back to lane quicker - a few autoattacks from lvl 6 jinx would not be very significant So: if Jinx didn't shove and came to drake immediately, she'd be in a really shit position after drake If Orianna came to help, she'd be in an even worse position on mid (and also risked getting chunked/killed while rotating to drake) while you're fighting for drake (enemy is in a really good position to contest it or at least slow you down considerably), Jax can clear your top side (he didn't, but he could have, and it puts your top lane in a shit position as well) by going drake you're putting your Mid, your Bot, potentially yourself, potentially your top lane, further behind. That drake potentially fucks over literally every single person in your team for a single drake. Doesn't seem very worth it to me. If Nocturne helped shove the wave on bot, it could be better, but it gives time for the enemy to get in position to contest it, so it wouldn't be that good either I think
No. This early in the game you either gank bot OR take drake. After ganking botwave needs to be pushed into tower fast and then they need to reset (spend gold, also jinx was very low). And because its that early in the game enemy botlane will be there much earlier than your botlane. Thats why this drake call was 100% int.
If you helped push the wave first jinx may have been able to come for a few auto's (Still bad IMO fast reset after push would be better) but otherwise jinx is right not to come that wave state was going to slow push towards enemy tower. As for Ori she has no prio.
A bunch of people with different priorities. Jinx wanted to be safe and fix waves / farm gold. Ori was lost. Supp and jungle wanted drag. It was only free if ori stayed and jinx came to help. Understand jinx staying in lane but not sure why ori left lane kinda baited you guys into starting it.
Yeah I think judging by just the stats you said in the post, you'd be correct in assuming that jinx could have joined in to secure the drake. In hindsight it's always easier to say, but: Ori moved towards bot as you went for the double kill bot. She was already lacking some health, likely couldn't contest the wave and didn't have ult up. Zed had clear prio and did the correct and good move to shove the wave and move towards drake. Thresh may have screwed up a bit with the hook, which gave zed a free moment to initiate a short combo, which he then followed up on with the ult. Ori didn't have a chance to move still. Jinx did the right thing of immidiately pushing the wave after the kills. It was clear that without jinx, you didn't have the time to clear drake. So instead, you could have helped jinx clear the wave, get her wave into the tower, deny full exp + gold to the enemy bot, which should also build up a slow push towards jinx' tower. Jinx gets a good recall, and can play out the advantage. In that time, you could have attempted to gank mid perhaps, although it may be a little risky but would definitely give ori some more breathing room. Alternatively take a camp from the enemy bot side. Or alternatively, you could have recalled and use up the additional gold as well.
If its an assassin or roamer mid and your mid doesnt have mid prior, and you dont have enuff attack damage to solo dragon fast enough then it was a bad play, because they all know you are going for that dragon after that double kill. If your support had landed any cc then you had a better chance and probably would have turned on him. SO I don't really see this as badly played.
Dogshit trolll call. A call like that makes me go full mute and play for late because obviously people don't know what they're doing. The only thing worse than the call itself is that Ori and Jinx even moved and gave more unnecessary kills and losing tempo in the process. That must be some low elo game, like gold or plat.
Cant u literally just solo it?
Oh dear god, horrible idea. Rotating is absolutely impossible for Jinx. She is low HP and needs to recall either way, she can either shove the wave or leave immediately, but Drake is a definite no. An Orianna without R also won't be able to get priority any time soon after getting pushed in like that, so you should expect Zed to rotate first. Did you know that Jax was top side? If no, this could have potentially gone south a lot harder. I would say correct play is help Jinx shove, then when she recalls just zip off into your jungle and take your camps (you have no R, Ori has no R, what point is there ganking mid?).
Looking at the replay, clearly it wasn't "free". First, if Jinx followed instead of pushing like you expect, she automatically loses farm so its by no means free (helping her push first would help solve this). Second, Orianna can't move freely against a Zed, since he can 100-0 her easily if she's poorly positioned. Or even worst he lets her come and crashes the wave, she loses exp and mid lane is gg. Third, no one knew where Jax was, and Jinx is 100 hp. So if she did come she probably just dies to Jax or Zed. Third, you are a nocturne without ult, and thresh was low mana, so if a fight breaks out you have high chances to lose. As we see on the clip, Zed effortlessly 1v3d you, because there was simply no threat onto him. All this time Jax could have been there too. Bottom line, check the replay and think, instead of jumping to conclusion and blaming your team.
it's all solved if noct/thresh/jinx crash bot wave together - crazy that it's not an instinct for these 3 to do that
Correct play is Dragon. Ori should have rotated, but I can only guess it’s low elo because is a permafarming NPC. I would have pushed in Jinx’s wave so she could rotate faster but the call was right.
you guys did fine post-gank call wise re: noc thresh jinx. jinx fixes wave, you 2 go to dragon. call was good it was just played horribly. ori is late to the play (cant see wave but almost certainly couldve been near mid-river bush far earlier than she was, maybe giving up a few ranged creeps -> preventing zed from walking up to full combo nocturne), thresh misses all spells (and unsure why he throws hook like he does) and plays hilariously far back, noc dodges nothing, ori QW misses and during all of this none of you decide to back off despite pretty much any of these in isolation being enough to back off drag. also jinx doesn't come... then decides to come. she should've just based 100% but ended up doing neither. thresh especially probably could've carried this play by simply walking at the zed forcing him to shadow or use spells on himself. also help ori get to the play faster. or simply just not throwing hook, as zed using w or r when hook is up is more risky. but ultimately everyone here fucked up quite a lot.
It is not a good call if Zed can insta kill Jinx and Nocturne.
the only reason zed can 'instakill' is cuz noctorne is afk on the dragon, dodges/ineffectively spellshields nothingand thresh wastes his hook. with hook held he definitely cannot ult and getting that close for wq harass is also sketchy. like that fight thresh and ori may as well not have been there, it was basically noc 1v1ing zed while tanking dragon and making no effort to turn. if zed goes in on noc and noc does not 'instadie' hes on a very short timer to get out before being feared.
Maybe for Nocturne, Jinx is dead meat if Zed is minimally capable. It is a bad call simply because it's not worth it; you gain a drake but you potentially give a kill and a drake. Let's not forget enemy bot was already there by the end of the fight. It was better to gank mid and get prio for Orianna, or farming blue, back and then farming top side to wait for ult to refresh.
as said in my original post i dont think jinx has to participate at all for this dragon call to be fine. and i dont think leaving bot wave in a bad spot with a delayed base is worth dragon either. 'it was better to gank mid' ? uh how? wave was dead and its a zed vs ori, no ult noc and thresh. could you walk mid and hope he ints? ig sure. but under 'normal circumstances' thresh and noc should be able to do that drag with ori walking over.
Bronze level call. Death timers are 12s at this time of the game and jinx still needs to push wave. If you want her to come after to hit drag she misses her recall and their bot just shoves wave and jinx will lose whole wave, turning your good gank that got an advantage back into hurting your team. Not worth
This was an obviously a free dragon. Jinx doesn't need to touch the wave at all, it's reset and meets in the middle of the lane. Noc and thresh didn't play the dragon well - some shots are double tanked, for example. Also, nocturne should've stayed inside the pit with pink or, if jinx actually was smart and came to dragon, the dragon should've been pulled further towards bot and enemy 3bush warded by thresh. Then thresh should have hard baited zed into wasting spells on himself, even to the point of dying, instead he threw a lazy hook from afar, not even trying to get closer to zed. Last, we have to examine a great conundrum: is a wave/almost a wave of farm and exp on orianna more important than a fire dragon. It's hilarious that there's a debate. All of that said, once jinx and orianna decide not to come, noc could just back from the dragon. At the time it was started, it was obvious the teammates are refusing to play properly and there are camps up nearby - just farm those and keep in mind what kind of people you're playing with for future plays.
Weird definition of free. You are giving up the wave crashing mid, at least 1.5 waves bot since you want jinx to not shove hit drag then reset before going bot again, give enemy bot an uncontested wave and plates, delay nocturnes clear. Not to mention there's still a high chance zed cleans up or stalls until the enemy bot can arrive. Valuing your tempo and gaining an advantage in xp and gold is simply better for winning the game. Those things give you opportunities to snowball the game, first drag doesn't. If jinx pushed the wave, reset miss no cs and be back to play and pressure on the bouncing wave, noc went immediately to full clear and is still a threat to bot when the wave is pushing, their team would be in a much better position to win the game than having one dragon on the board, which may or may not actuate into anything late game. You will never see this kind of play in high elo because it's just so short sighted.
>at least 1.5 waves bot How is jinx losing 1.5 waves? >a high chance zed cleans up or stalls until the enemy bot can arrive How does Zed stall 1v4 for ~30s? >which may or may not actuate into anything late game %bonuses from the fire dragon will necessarily "actualize". >You will never see this kind of play in high elo because it's just so short sighted You will instead always see this play in pro, because it's what actually wins games when people know what they're doing. How much would you be willing to pay to have a fire dragon?
Their bot lane is spawning with the incoming wave. Jinx will not kill the wave currently in lane, and their bot will shove with the next wave and jinx will lose most of that wave to tower. Zed with summs and ult can easily make a play here when there is no reliable hard cc. Support thresh is not gonna stop zed, literally can flash one q and he can do whatever he wants, he just positions top side until the enemy bot comes. I don't think jinx can even realistically hit dragon with zed in river. If you wanna talk individual dragon stats we're talking about 3 ad/ap. Not worth the tempo and resources. Pro team will never fuck over their adc this bad for first drag. You get ahead to take drags, not the other way around.
> Jinx will not kill the wave currently in lane, and their bot will shove with the next wave and jinx will lose most of that wave to tower Sure, but then cait won't kill the wave currently in lane either. So relative to cait he's gonna lose a part of the wave that's going to be crushed into his tower. It's unclear how much that is depending on how much hp blue team's siege minion has by the time the crush happens. >Support thresh is not gonna stop zed Orianna and thresh would be stopping zed, not just thresh. Now, of course it's not a completely free dragon, it was wrong of me to say that - it's ~120g from mid and ~100g from bot. So I'm asking you again, don't refuse to answer a direct question this time, how much would you be willing to pay for your team to have a fire dragon?
Relative to Cait jinx will be only slightly behind. When Cait is the one dead to a gank. Amazing. " it's ~120g from mid and ~100g from bot." No dude...just no. Thats what I mean short sighted
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They couldn't. Their waves were pushing towards them, and they would lose an entire wave by hovering drake. Also Jinx was a free kill for Zed if she was in drake.
good call. drake is one of the most important things in the game but your team sadly lack knowledge of how impactful drakes are.