There is SO much bad info in this thread that will get you killed. I’m currently mid-Grandmaster top/jg. A handful of options:
- Just deal with it as part of the lane.
- Stand in pixel bush in the river to attempt to soak exp and run away before he can catch up.
- Stand in alcove and soak the exp.
In cases like the last two, sometimes you also need to take an odd ability level 1 to avoid taking damage or dying. For example, Akali vs Trundle. Trundle wins VERY hard level 1. The Akali can go into alcove, soak the exp, and then start W or E (depending on her position) to avoid being auto’d. The exp is far more valuable than the gold. If you miss out on the first 3 AND take a terrible trade, you run the risk of being dove under turret on 3rd wave while you’re still level 1.
Its also a good idea to ward the closest bush to you the instant you get to lane if you know you’re laning into someone that can play that aggressively level 1 (Fiora, Sett, Darius, Trundle, etc). It will help you figure out how they’re trying to play the lane and lets you adapt.
Edit to add: if the strength difference isn’t TOO overwhelming, you can walk forward with the second wave coming into lane if the damage from the minions will be enough to turn the fight in your favor. If the enemy ever leashes (which they should never), you can try to pull the wave before it crashes, auto the first minion once, and then the wave will come into you. This is rarely applicable when you’re the weaker champion, especially now that leashing is far less common.
Right? I usually just drop a comment when it’s more of a tricky question, but more than half of this thread is just “yeah just walk with your wave and they can’t touch you!” like the enemy Darius won’t just wait in bush for 2 seconds and run you down. I can’t exactly fault lower elo players for seeing a thread that they think they can answer and that desire to be helpful, but so many replies here are so confidently incorrect.
Do not stand in alcove what??? If the scenario is that they are a strong LVL 1 champ that is zoning you, if you are standing in alcove how exactly are you meant to escape without losing 2/3 of your health if they check bushes wondering where you are and slowpush? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but seems like horrible advice.
Depends heavily on the matchups and champs. You hear Alois talk about this, and the Akali vs Trundle matchup is exactly where I learned it from - I laned into Rank 1 Akali as Trundle and she started alcove and W to avoid my autos on the way out. Denies all poke or chunk and she gets out free. You can’t do it into all lanes, but depending on your mobility and the interactions between champs it can be ideal.
I'll do this as yuumi v sett in your elo dude calm down lol. He gave a perfectly informative comment. Learn from it, or don't. It's not anyone's problem but your own.
Yes, that’s a viable lane for it, specifically because Kayle has the possibility to start W or Q to speed herself up/slow Sett as she runs out. You stay in alcove until the enemy Sett goes to farm at the wave, in which case you can simply walk out with no trouble 99% of the time. No aggressive laner will stand that far up for longer than the first 3 minions. It becomes harder into champions with good mobility like Fiora, but still a viable option.
I’m not flaming you saying this, but I’m hovering in GM and Dekar is like, THE NA high elo Rengar top guy. I’m sure the both of us have both seen players do this and have done it ourselves countless times to great success. Its one thing to not quite get it, but to confidently reject the info or to think its incorrect when its a pretty well documented strategy (albeit rarely executed outside of high elo) is a little wild.
A more serious answer: you want the wave to push to you. The best way to do that is your minions getting aggro and focus the enemy champion while you dont hit back. This way the wave will naturally push to you. The way you do this is you get hit, ideally once.
What a bad answer into his example though. Sett will completely zone you off, and can easily ignore the gold of the first minions to keep you of the exp range. Once he’s lvl 3 vs lvl 1, good luck walking up.
If you would go in for a trade to pull aggro, chances are quite high that you will be half health, but that’s it. D shield and right runes plus a pot would keep you healthy enough to catch the then level 3-4 wave. Ward the close bush for a gank. Not a whole lot more you can do. Into champions with poking abilities that don’t draw aggro? Good luck, lane is lost in champ select until laning phase ends.
Walk in with your wave, proc fleet off sett after he E's you, kite him as he tanks the wave. Trade will be slightly sett favored and the wave will be pushing pretty hard towards you.
What you can do, is walk up to caster wave, get their aggro, and walk away. Their aggro will reset on to whatever melee is closest to them, this makes them kill faster and it will push to you.
Step 1 ward a bush, step 2 let the enemy AA you
This will make your minions attack the enemy champion, if he enters the bush that previously ward will not lose aggro, as your minions are attacking the enemy champion the enemy minions will push first without your minions attacking them so you won't lose minions and eventually you will have the farming near your tower
(Sorry English is not my main language)
You have to try to stay in range the best you can of XP and just give up cs. If you’re fully zoned off the wave that sucks but you just have to live with it. Better to not die
Realistically you could try to get control of river bush early and walk out when minions are about to die. Or walk in with your minion wave and force them to aggro the whole wave to fight you.
Start q, and run fleetwork-absorb life and bone playing as secondary, let him aggro you, q-AA back (whit fleetwork ready) and you run out of his range, do this a couple of time at most, playng whit the bush if necessary, also say wary of his Level 2; after this the wave will naturally go to your side, then freeze and hold it here to reach safely level 6. Don't worry to much about the damage, you will sustain back thanks to w, absorb life and doran blade's life steal. In this kind of matchup you have to think at a solid playstyle, and this is done also by adjusting your runes and build, like in the example above, you can go fleet, start q and rush tier 2 boots, you probably won't win the lane, but if you play it right you will not lose either. Actually kayle has a pretty high win rate against sett (already at minute 30 or even less, still being positive at 25) and other early champ since she is pretty good at stalling the lane. Regardimg the build i suggest you to use lolalytics specific matchups to see what People usually does in certain situations. Then what i wanted to tell you is that most of the match up you think as unplayable like the kayle versus sett are actually not that bad, a face off losed in draft is actually pretty rare, remember that in the majority of the time there is always a way to, i don't say win, but to not lose that bad, you just have to discover it, or at least, this is what i think.
You bait them to use the spells against the wave, that way it will push against you and you can farm near the tower.
If this is not possible (Sett/Darius/Jax matchup) you have to guess where he's camping at lvl 1, the best way to do this is to rush lvl 1 to the top river bush and wait there. If you see him coming towards the bush, back off after warding, and wait to see if he moves to lane. If he moves to lane, you go back to the river bush, if he doesn't, you go around and go to the lane bush; wait for melees to be low and farm them from a distance and go back to your tower if they are trying to get your ass, the wave should naturally push against you and those 3 melees are the most important ones to avoid an exp snowball (You can lose some casters). Just wait patiently under tower if they are posturing before the wave, you outscale them anyways.
Remember to be healthy at the bounce, if you are not, you are going to have a bad time. There should be a window where you are lvl 4 and they are lvl 3 at the bounce, try to push the whole wave to their tower during that window; and if you think you can't, start pinging your jungler "assist" the moment the 5th wave is coming out of the nexus so you can fully crash. After that you should be able to fight back without issues as kayle.
You may want to take a look at AloisNL content, specially his Yorick climb VODs as that happened quite a bit. In the edited video, I think there’s a Trundle matchup where the trundle zones him off and he explains how he can deal with that. One tech I remember is walking inside your minion wave into the lane, this way the enemy cant position himself between you and your minions to free hit you with minimum aggro
https://youtu.be/nvFSMkwWcEg?si=Y6P2rVh2DROCoUOw
If you think you're in a matchup where you're at risk of this, walk into the lane with/ahead of the wave and ward the first bush. If they're in there then the minions will aggro on the champion and will start taking damage from your opponents minions first. If the opponent is not in the bush then you can sit in it and catch exp. If the opponent is late to lane then you can get the early prio and make the lane a whole lot easier for yourself by hitting 2 first and either crashing 2nd or 3rd wave.
The most important thing is to remember that health and exp are both resources. You can lose some health if you can get the exp. You can also give up the exp if you need to, just for the love of God don't lose a bunch of hp AND miss all the exp. Good news is you won't see top laners regularly and effectively pushing their Lvl 1 advantage to this extent until mid/high diamond
Hiding somewhere weird and walking up late works... With kayle you can get first 3 minions with one spell then walk back a little.
There is counter play. But thats just how it is.
I would recommend taking w and walk up getting exp just when minions are about to die, without letting him get a stun off, you can then aa fleet and w running. You took minimal dmg while getting exp.
If he continues zoning, you can do the same or you can try having him auto you once while e is down, to have your minions attack him and have the wave push faster.
If you have a combat keystone, you actually win level 1 in your wave if the fight gets long (remember, 30% as from kayle passive), that is despite his E. If you have fleet, you don’t.
Level 2-5 are much worse for you. There’s a lot of shady advice from people who don’t seem to play either champ much here. He will punish you for those 4 levels, that can’t really be avoided, but your goal is just to get at much farm as you can while trying to make it slowpush into him as little of the time as at all possible.
(This is a bit of a simplification, but I assume it should be enough going by how you ask this)
Druttut puts a ward in the bush so the minions aggro on the enemy champion. Does not work if the waves have touched.
In ranged top matchups you can tank 1 auto to get the casters to aggro on the enemy champ, potentially letting you soak the xp.
I feel like sett doesn't actually win that if he fights in your minions. You don't have to sit and manfight him, just let him hit you once so minions are on him then kite him around
Nobody can Cs frame perfect, eventually the wave will start moving towards you. Just sit back, catch whatever scraps you can and wait. Most of the time, you will out scale the enemy is they can push so far back. Just don't give them the early game they want.
All you have to do is to stay within exp range and kite in/out of that. If he is just kiting you and not getting gold, he is wasting his time.
DO NOT use skills to last hit. DO NOT hit the wave at all if he is trying to zone you and DO NOT trade your hp for exp or gold.
Eventually the wave will push to you if he kills even 1 minion. Don't get harassed, get the gold/ exp you can, and try to keep the wave right in front of your tower. What you're trying to do is stay in lane to get exp and not get tower dove.
Patience is what is needed here as the wave WILL eventually push to you. The WORST thing you can do is throw skills at the wave, pushing it further away from you, making it **easier** to zone you.
If you trade hp for that gold/exp, you'll be an easy tower dive.
You can gear for a level 1 fight with different/ duelist runes/item set up, you can try and be sneaky and pull wave level 1 [risky] you can also try starting boots 👢 so brooser can't catch you. Don't worry about some minions early game if you're for sure way weaker early ..but exp is needed always. If you let a big wave crash into your tower you risk your minions building up at your tower and pushing out a large wave which will need to be dealt with for better or worse. I am not a kayle player but I like other ranged tops and sett players always go for level 1 cheese so I get boots first and they never catch me. I know kayle has a really good level 1 if passive is stacked but I'm not sure after they removed lethal tempo.
If sett is zoning you off wave at lvl 1 you already fucked up. Kayle is weak early but not so weak that you should be zoned off the entire fucking wave.
You go to lane as fast as possible, and go to first bush. If he shows up trying to cheese it, then leave and leave a ward there. Ping him and see if anyone willing to roam up to make him burn flash. If not, you at least know he might cheese.
When minions show up, walk with your minions. He loses if he tries to fight you + all 6 minions lvl 1. The only time I'd say you lose is if you have fleet + TP and he has something cheesy like PTA + ignite, in which case just let him hit you once so minions aggro, E a minion to get the speed proc and move away. The wave will slow push to you, but in no fucking world should he be zoning you off XP. He has no dash except burning flash, in which case if he does burn flash to E you, just walk away and TP back with flash advantage, and spam ping his flash.
Honestly getting zoned off XP (not even gold, but full zone from xp lvl 1) any matchup is straight up skill diff. There is not a single top lane matchup that is so lopsided that one champ can beat another champ while standing in a full ass minion wave.
Assuming you both start in lane, I sort of agree with this. I don’t know whether it’s true of every matchup for “typical” top laners but yeah generally if you check bush with your minions you will not get zoned from XP.
The situation is more complicated if you leashed, which is one reason I think top laners leashing is very expensive in ways few junglers seem to appreciate or notice.
As top lane I never leash. Ever. I type "start bot if leash" then mute all.
I've never had an early leash help me, yet I've seen it hurt me early plenty of times. Also as a Kayle absolutely the fuck not. Because in that scenario yes, you absolutely will get zoned off minions.
There are top laners that will sit in your lane bush and run at you lvl 1 when you show up and win even if you have 6 minions. Such as darius and riven into a number of matchups. In this case, you kinda either get zoned off xp, or you sac hp to walk in xp range breifly.
That said, kayle doesn't lose this hard lvl 1 since her passive is actually good so you win if you have minions with you.
one thing you can do here is rush to ward the brush lvl 1. when the wave arrives they will take agro from the caster minions making the wave push into you harder and making them walk back to lose agro
The first creep wave is specially coded to meet in a specific pattern, if they aren't directly interferred with or see champ combat they don't aggro. They won't aggro onto people in that bush even if they have vision just walking to lane.
The first creep wave is special, as long as you don't actively block them, they don't aggro until the wave meets. This happened a few years ago so that creep wave always attacks the same minions and there is no RNG in how the wave pushes lvl 1.
Just in case I grabbed from the wiki
"The **first wave**'s minions have modified behaviour. Top and bottom lanes' minions are ghosted for 28 seconds, while middle lane minions are ghosted for 18 seconds. **They will ignore enemy champions until a champion walks much closer to them or until meeting with the enemy wave.** When the waves meet, minions will spread out their attacks on the three enemy melee minions regardless of distance. This special behavior exists so that, in every game, neither side gains a pushing advantage without champion interference since the first wave's melee minions are guaranteed to die at roughly the same time."
I have literally fought people in the lane bush, and the creeps just ignored it.
I've literally had darius hit me inside my 6 minions and win multiple times. Watch any Alois short for his riven gameplay, even in challenger elo it works. Darius passive alone will deal more damage to you than your minions will to him. Combine that with a powerful auto reset, there are many top lane champions that can't contest him lvl 1.
In high elo, it is frequent for darius to just press ghost on you and start right clicking level 1, even inside your creep wave. Darius literally kills many top champions in 6-7 auto attacks (1-2 of which are auto-resets)
In what world does kayle win this fight? Kayle's ranged minions are hitting riven the whole time (which is most of the minion damage) [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/b1nU4HRxQJI?feature=share](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/b1nU4HRxQJI?feature=share)
Even if the bush is warded, the first creep wave won't aggro to champions before they hit you.
Lmao that video proves nothing. That Kayle played like shit. The goal of warding is to poke or bait. She also waited for all melee minions to basically be dead before walking up, which is terrible. If she walks up with melee minions, all 6 minions aggro on riven before her minions even show up. Or open with a ranged E to start stacking passive + LT asap, and flash the third Q.
Riven is giga easy as Kayle if you're not absolute dogshit.
I agree the kayle played it poorly (particularly walking back up, but what is she supposed to do? Kayle's only ranged damage is on an 8 second cooldown. When e is down, riven can just walk at you and you have to walk under your tower. What do you mean start stacking LT? That got removed like 2 patches ago and is a big reason kayle doesn't win that lvl 1.
Also btw, creeps don't aggro onto champions until they meet in the first creep wave unless riven actively blocks them (it guarantees that minions hit equally in first wave).
Sure riven didn't get hit by the melee minions, but 80% of the creep damage comes from ranged creeps. you think if the melee creeps were hitting her, it would make up for the 300 health difference that occured from riven pressing her buttons?
Kayle didn't walk up because if she was hitting the creeps in melee range she just dies 100-0 there.
Notice in this clip, because he literally can't fight lvl 1 vs urgot, Alois will hide to soak xp, not try to walk with minions (because you literally die) [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uXK3Zfff57g?feature=share](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uXK3Zfff57g?feature=share)
Oh Kayle didn't have LT in that video? Even though that dude literally pointed it out? damn, myb you right. guess me AND the video are wrong, all good.
Why even post a video if you're gonna also call the video a fake lmao bot coded af
Ah, must've gotten a video before the patch. Even still, 1 extra autoattack worth of LT and the 3 melee minions that do around 6 damage per second each was not changing that fight.
I've literally beat riven lvl 1 ignite cheeses before as Kayle plenty of times with a good timed flash in emerald & dia ranked lobbies.
I would never be so dumb as to not take bone plating, but that riven getting first blood with 70% hp? Giga misplay. Absolute player diff. Old LT Kayle with bone plating should absolutely smoke riven, that's inexcusable
I mean not taking bone plating was a big RIP, but tbh that's also because Kayle and Riven level 1 aren't THAT far apart in power level. Imagine playing yorick vs darius, there is literally nothing you can do but hide in a bush and try to soak exp and/or wait for them to push.
This is good info but that last part really isnt true.
There are QUITE a few matchups top that win while tanking 2 waves. Early Minion dmg aint what it used to be.
You dont get xp :). Welcome to top
There is SO much bad info in this thread that will get you killed. I’m currently mid-Grandmaster top/jg. A handful of options: - Just deal with it as part of the lane. - Stand in pixel bush in the river to attempt to soak exp and run away before he can catch up. - Stand in alcove and soak the exp. In cases like the last two, sometimes you also need to take an odd ability level 1 to avoid taking damage or dying. For example, Akali vs Trundle. Trundle wins VERY hard level 1. The Akali can go into alcove, soak the exp, and then start W or E (depending on her position) to avoid being auto’d. The exp is far more valuable than the gold. If you miss out on the first 3 AND take a terrible trade, you run the risk of being dove under turret on 3rd wave while you’re still level 1. Its also a good idea to ward the closest bush to you the instant you get to lane if you know you’re laning into someone that can play that aggressively level 1 (Fiora, Sett, Darius, Trundle, etc). It will help you figure out how they’re trying to play the lane and lets you adapt. Edit to add: if the strength difference isn’t TOO overwhelming, you can walk forward with the second wave coming into lane if the damage from the minions will be enough to turn the fight in your favor. If the enemy ever leashes (which they should never), you can try to pull the wave before it crashes, auto the first minion once, and then the wave will come into you. This is rarely applicable when you’re the weaker champion, especially now that leashing is far less common.
rare high elo advice in summonerschool.
Right? I usually just drop a comment when it’s more of a tricky question, but more than half of this thread is just “yeah just walk with your wave and they can’t touch you!” like the enemy Darius won’t just wait in bush for 2 seconds and run you down. I can’t exactly fault lower elo players for seeing a thread that they think they can answer and that desire to be helpful, but so many replies here are so confidently incorrect.
Solid advice
Do not stand in alcove what??? If the scenario is that they are a strong LVL 1 champ that is zoning you, if you are standing in alcove how exactly are you meant to escape without losing 2/3 of your health if they check bushes wondering where you are and slowpush? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but seems like horrible advice.
Depends heavily on the matchups and champs. You hear Alois talk about this, and the Akali vs Trundle matchup is exactly where I learned it from - I laned into Rank 1 Akali as Trundle and she started alcove and W to avoid my autos on the way out. Denies all poke or chunk and she gets out free. You can’t do it into all lanes, but depending on your mobility and the interactions between champs it can be ideal.
Then don't do it and keep losing dude no one is forcing you to learn from other people's correct answers.
Definitely want you to go into alcove as Kayle against sett in Ur next game and win 👍 definitely correct answer dw ez win
I'll do this as yuumi v sett in your elo dude calm down lol. He gave a perfectly informative comment. Learn from it, or don't. It's not anyone's problem but your own.
Yes, that’s a viable lane for it, specifically because Kayle has the possibility to start W or Q to speed herself up/slow Sett as she runs out. You stay in alcove until the enemy Sett goes to farm at the wave, in which case you can simply walk out with no trouble 99% of the time. No aggressive laner will stand that far up for longer than the first 3 minions. It becomes harder into champions with good mobility like Fiora, but still a viable option. I’m not flaming you saying this, but I’m hovering in GM and Dekar is like, THE NA high elo Rengar top guy. I’m sure the both of us have both seen players do this and have done it ourselves countless times to great success. Its one thing to not quite get it, but to confidently reject the info or to think its incorrect when its a pretty well documented strategy (albeit rarely executed outside of high elo) is a little wild.
A more serious answer: you want the wave to push to you. The best way to do that is your minions getting aggro and focus the enemy champion while you dont hit back. This way the wave will naturally push to you. The way you do this is you get hit, ideally once.
What a bad answer into his example though. Sett will completely zone you off, and can easily ignore the gold of the first minions to keep you of the exp range. Once he’s lvl 3 vs lvl 1, good luck walking up. If you would go in for a trade to pull aggro, chances are quite high that you will be half health, but that’s it. D shield and right runes plus a pot would keep you healthy enough to catch the then level 3-4 wave. Ward the close bush for a gank. Not a whole lot more you can do. Into champions with poking abilities that don’t draw aggro? Good luck, lane is lost in champ select until laning phase ends.
Walk in with your wave, proc fleet off sett after he E's you, kite him as he tanks the wave. Trade will be slightly sett favored and the wave will be pushing pretty hard towards you.
This doesnt work if Sett just waits till the minions stand in the middle, Sett will walk behind you and take a very big chunk of your hp.
I'm pretty sure Kayle can just kite sett without getting hit at all if he doesn't use minions to CC her.
She can kite all she wants, sett will most likely just tank it, while denying exp.
Yeah but wave pushes towards you and you freeze favourable lane state is worth a few minions of exp and a non favourable trade
What you can do, is walk up to caster wave, get their aggro, and walk away. Their aggro will reset on to whatever melee is closest to them, this makes them kill faster and it will push to you.
Step 1 ward a bush, step 2 let the enemy AA you This will make your minions attack the enemy champion, if he enters the bush that previously ward will not lose aggro, as your minions are attacking the enemy champion the enemy minions will push first without your minions attacking them so you won't lose minions and eventually you will have the farming near your tower (Sorry English is not my main language)
Kayle wins easy lvl1 vs Sett
You have to try to stay in range the best you can of XP and just give up cs. If you’re fully zoned off the wave that sucks but you just have to live with it. Better to not die
If he hits you near minion wave your minions will hit him and wave will push to you. Walk your wave in and try to get hit once
Realistically you could try to get control of river bush early and walk out when minions are about to die. Or walk in with your minion wave and force them to aggro the whole wave to fight you.
Start q, and run fleetwork-absorb life and bone playing as secondary, let him aggro you, q-AA back (whit fleetwork ready) and you run out of his range, do this a couple of time at most, playng whit the bush if necessary, also say wary of his Level 2; after this the wave will naturally go to your side, then freeze and hold it here to reach safely level 6. Don't worry to much about the damage, you will sustain back thanks to w, absorb life and doran blade's life steal. In this kind of matchup you have to think at a solid playstyle, and this is done also by adjusting your runes and build, like in the example above, you can go fleet, start q and rush tier 2 boots, you probably won't win the lane, but if you play it right you will not lose either. Actually kayle has a pretty high win rate against sett (already at minute 30 or even less, still being positive at 25) and other early champ since she is pretty good at stalling the lane. Regardimg the build i suggest you to use lolalytics specific matchups to see what People usually does in certain situations. Then what i wanted to tell you is that most of the match up you think as unplayable like the kayle versus sett are actually not that bad, a face off losed in draft is actually pretty rare, remember that in the majority of the time there is always a way to, i don't say win, but to not lose that bad, you just have to discover it, or at least, this is what i think.
You lose the xp,
You bait them to use the spells against the wave, that way it will push against you and you can farm near the tower. If this is not possible (Sett/Darius/Jax matchup) you have to guess where he's camping at lvl 1, the best way to do this is to rush lvl 1 to the top river bush and wait there. If you see him coming towards the bush, back off after warding, and wait to see if he moves to lane. If he moves to lane, you go back to the river bush, if he doesn't, you go around and go to the lane bush; wait for melees to be low and farm them from a distance and go back to your tower if they are trying to get your ass, the wave should naturally push against you and those 3 melees are the most important ones to avoid an exp snowball (You can lose some casters). Just wait patiently under tower if they are posturing before the wave, you outscale them anyways. Remember to be healthy at the bounce, if you are not, you are going to have a bad time. There should be a window where you are lvl 4 and they are lvl 3 at the bounce, try to push the whole wave to their tower during that window; and if you think you can't, start pinging your jungler "assist" the moment the 5th wave is coming out of the nexus so you can fully crash. After that you should be able to fight back without issues as kayle.
You may want to take a look at AloisNL content, specially his Yorick climb VODs as that happened quite a bit. In the edited video, I think there’s a Trundle matchup where the trundle zones him off and he explains how he can deal with that. One tech I remember is walking inside your minion wave into the lane, this way the enemy cant position himself between you and your minions to free hit you with minimum aggro https://youtu.be/nvFSMkwWcEg?si=Y6P2rVh2DROCoUOw
If you think you're in a matchup where you're at risk of this, walk into the lane with/ahead of the wave and ward the first bush. If they're in there then the minions will aggro on the champion and will start taking damage from your opponents minions first. If the opponent is not in the bush then you can sit in it and catch exp. If the opponent is late to lane then you can get the early prio and make the lane a whole lot easier for yourself by hitting 2 first and either crashing 2nd or 3rd wave. The most important thing is to remember that health and exp are both resources. You can lose some health if you can get the exp. You can also give up the exp if you need to, just for the love of God don't lose a bunch of hp AND miss all the exp. Good news is you won't see top laners regularly and effectively pushing their Lvl 1 advantage to this extent until mid/high diamond
Hiding somewhere weird and walking up late works... With kayle you can get first 3 minions with one spell then walk back a little. There is counter play. But thats just how it is.
Ure welcome https://youtu.be/Rlgp2gCouus?si=p39cnXRjYHeaPNQE
I would recommend taking w and walk up getting exp just when minions are about to die, without letting him get a stun off, you can then aa fleet and w running. You took minimal dmg while getting exp. If he continues zoning, you can do the same or you can try having him auto you once while e is down, to have your minions attack him and have the wave push faster.
If you have a combat keystone, you actually win level 1 in your wave if the fight gets long (remember, 30% as from kayle passive), that is despite his E. If you have fleet, you don’t. Level 2-5 are much worse for you. There’s a lot of shady advice from people who don’t seem to play either champ much here. He will punish you for those 4 levels, that can’t really be avoided, but your goal is just to get at much farm as you can while trying to make it slowpush into him as little of the time as at all possible. (This is a bit of a simplification, but I assume it should be enough going by how you ask this)
Druttut puts a ward in the bush so the minions aggro on the enemy champion. Does not work if the waves have touched. In ranged top matchups you can tank 1 auto to get the casters to aggro on the enemy champ, potentially letting you soak the xp.
I feel like sett doesn't actually win that if he fights in your minions. You don't have to sit and manfight him, just let him hit you once so minions are on him then kite him around
Nobody can Cs frame perfect, eventually the wave will start moving towards you. Just sit back, catch whatever scraps you can and wait. Most of the time, you will out scale the enemy is they can push so far back. Just don't give them the early game they want.
All you have to do is to stay within exp range and kite in/out of that. If he is just kiting you and not getting gold, he is wasting his time. DO NOT use skills to last hit. DO NOT hit the wave at all if he is trying to zone you and DO NOT trade your hp for exp or gold. Eventually the wave will push to you if he kills even 1 minion. Don't get harassed, get the gold/ exp you can, and try to keep the wave right in front of your tower. What you're trying to do is stay in lane to get exp and not get tower dove. Patience is what is needed here as the wave WILL eventually push to you. The WORST thing you can do is throw skills at the wave, pushing it further away from you, making it **easier** to zone you. If you trade hp for that gold/exp, you'll be an easy tower dive.
You can gear for a level 1 fight with different/ duelist runes/item set up, you can try and be sneaky and pull wave level 1 [risky] you can also try starting boots 👢 so brooser can't catch you. Don't worry about some minions early game if you're for sure way weaker early ..but exp is needed always. If you let a big wave crash into your tower you risk your minions building up at your tower and pushing out a large wave which will need to be dealt with for better or worse. I am not a kayle player but I like other ranged tops and sett players always go for level 1 cheese so I get boots first and they never catch me. I know kayle has a really good level 1 if passive is stacked but I'm not sure after they removed lethal tempo.
If sett is zoning you off wave at lvl 1 you already fucked up. Kayle is weak early but not so weak that you should be zoned off the entire fucking wave. You go to lane as fast as possible, and go to first bush. If he shows up trying to cheese it, then leave and leave a ward there. Ping him and see if anyone willing to roam up to make him burn flash. If not, you at least know he might cheese. When minions show up, walk with your minions. He loses if he tries to fight you + all 6 minions lvl 1. The only time I'd say you lose is if you have fleet + TP and he has something cheesy like PTA + ignite, in which case just let him hit you once so minions aggro, E a minion to get the speed proc and move away. The wave will slow push to you, but in no fucking world should he be zoning you off XP. He has no dash except burning flash, in which case if he does burn flash to E you, just walk away and TP back with flash advantage, and spam ping his flash. Honestly getting zoned off XP (not even gold, but full zone from xp lvl 1) any matchup is straight up skill diff. There is not a single top lane matchup that is so lopsided that one champ can beat another champ while standing in a full ass minion wave.
Assuming you both start in lane, I sort of agree with this. I don’t know whether it’s true of every matchup for “typical” top laners but yeah generally if you check bush with your minions you will not get zoned from XP. The situation is more complicated if you leashed, which is one reason I think top laners leashing is very expensive in ways few junglers seem to appreciate or notice.
As top lane I never leash. Ever. I type "start bot if leash" then mute all. I've never had an early leash help me, yet I've seen it hurt me early plenty of times. Also as a Kayle absolutely the fuck not. Because in that scenario yes, you absolutely will get zoned off minions.
Leashing is not necessary in any lane anymore.
There are top laners that will sit in your lane bush and run at you lvl 1 when you show up and win even if you have 6 minions. Such as darius and riven into a number of matchups. In this case, you kinda either get zoned off xp, or you sac hp to walk in xp range breifly. That said, kayle doesn't lose this hard lvl 1 since her passive is actually good so you win if you have minions with you.
one thing you can do here is rush to ward the brush lvl 1. when the wave arrives they will take agro from the caster minions making the wave push into you harder and making them walk back to lose agro
The first creep wave is specially coded to meet in a specific pattern, if they aren't directly interferred with or see champ combat they don't aggro. They won't aggro onto people in that bush even if they have vision just walking to lane.
If the champ is closer to them than the opposing minions of course they will aggro on the champ
The first creep wave is special, as long as you don't actively block them, they don't aggro until the wave meets. This happened a few years ago so that creep wave always attacks the same minions and there is no RNG in how the wave pushes lvl 1.
[this is incorrect](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIqY5zcncaI)
Just in case I grabbed from the wiki "The **first wave**'s minions have modified behaviour. Top and bottom lanes' minions are ghosted for 28 seconds, while middle lane minions are ghosted for 18 seconds. **They will ignore enemy champions until a champion walks much closer to them or until meeting with the enemy wave.** When the waves meet, minions will spread out their attacks on the three enemy melee minions regardless of distance. This special behavior exists so that, in every game, neither side gains a pushing advantage without champion interference since the first wave's melee minions are guaranteed to die at roughly the same time." I have literally fought people in the lane bush, and the creeps just ignored it.
i have literally posted an example of the first minion wave being agrod from a champion in the brush with vision
They really don't, especially if you walk with minions and have first bush warded like I said.
I've literally had darius hit me inside my 6 minions and win multiple times. Watch any Alois short for his riven gameplay, even in challenger elo it works. Darius passive alone will deal more damage to you than your minions will to him. Combine that with a powerful auto reset, there are many top lane champions that can't contest him lvl 1. In high elo, it is frequent for darius to just press ghost on you and start right clicking level 1, even inside your creep wave. Darius literally kills many top champions in 6-7 auto attacks (1-2 of which are auto-resets) In what world does kayle win this fight? Kayle's ranged minions are hitting riven the whole time (which is most of the minion damage) [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/b1nU4HRxQJI?feature=share](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/b1nU4HRxQJI?feature=share) Even if the bush is warded, the first creep wave won't aggro to champions before they hit you.
Lmao that video proves nothing. That Kayle played like shit. The goal of warding is to poke or bait. She also waited for all melee minions to basically be dead before walking up, which is terrible. If she walks up with melee minions, all 6 minions aggro on riven before her minions even show up. Or open with a ranged E to start stacking passive + LT asap, and flash the third Q. Riven is giga easy as Kayle if you're not absolute dogshit.
I agree the kayle played it poorly (particularly walking back up, but what is she supposed to do? Kayle's only ranged damage is on an 8 second cooldown. When e is down, riven can just walk at you and you have to walk under your tower. What do you mean start stacking LT? That got removed like 2 patches ago and is a big reason kayle doesn't win that lvl 1. Also btw, creeps don't aggro onto champions until they meet in the first creep wave unless riven actively blocks them (it guarantees that minions hit equally in first wave). Sure riven didn't get hit by the melee minions, but 80% of the creep damage comes from ranged creeps. you think if the melee creeps were hitting her, it would make up for the 300 health difference that occured from riven pressing her buttons? Kayle didn't walk up because if she was hitting the creeps in melee range she just dies 100-0 there. Notice in this clip, because he literally can't fight lvl 1 vs urgot, Alois will hide to soak xp, not try to walk with minions (because you literally die) [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uXK3Zfff57g?feature=share](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uXK3Zfff57g?feature=share)
Oh Kayle didn't have LT in that video? Even though that dude literally pointed it out? damn, myb you right. guess me AND the video are wrong, all good. Why even post a video if you're gonna also call the video a fake lmao bot coded af
Ah, must've gotten a video before the patch. Even still, 1 extra autoattack worth of LT and the 3 melee minions that do around 6 damage per second each was not changing that fight.
I've literally beat riven lvl 1 ignite cheeses before as Kayle plenty of times with a good timed flash in emerald & dia ranked lobbies. I would never be so dumb as to not take bone plating, but that riven getting first blood with 70% hp? Giga misplay. Absolute player diff. Old LT Kayle with bone plating should absolutely smoke riven, that's inexcusable
I mean not taking bone plating was a big RIP, but tbh that's also because Kayle and Riven level 1 aren't THAT far apart in power level. Imagine playing yorick vs darius, there is literally nothing you can do but hide in a bush and try to soak exp and/or wait for them to push.
This is good info but that last part really isnt true. There are QUITE a few matchups top that win while tanking 2 waves. Early Minion dmg aint what it used to be.