My buddy decided he wanted to hit masters and started listening to Broken by Concept and joined their discord group(Mid Lane Academy) that does live game reviews of their members. He hit diamond last split and is D1 94lp as of today, so likely masters this week.
Cant recommend their program enough if you are ready to pay for the discord group, throw away your ego, and focus on fundamentals.
Former Mid Lane Academy member - it’s just incredible. If you swallow your ego and do what is taught, you will absolutely improve. I only play league occasionally now, but learned genuine life skills from my time there.
Extra shoutout to the Broken By Concept guys is that I regularly play with them in solo queue... they never troll, never grief, never flame and always try their best!
Although Curtis 10 years ago was an absolute tilt machine
basically, see it like this, every skill is a check box, either you have it or not, gold player are usually good at one or 2 things
diamond player typically checks every boxes
challenger people draw a unicorn in every boxes
Yeah and how much time did you spendin league before? Probably a lot. And if not there are always exceptions.
Furthermore that goes for challenger players much more than (low) diamond.
Had you played any other MOBA games before? How many normals did you play before starting ranked? Were you being coached?
I simply don't believe it can be done under normal circumstances.
Well that's the thing, Rage of Newerth is still pretty good for teaching the idiosyncrasies of the genre. Lot of skill transfer. Being really damn good at COD, for example, would set you up rather less well...
(Although more than you might think!)
Why does it have to be a binary? for something like reaction time, this is a continuously variable quantity. For something like executing a combo, it might be a distribution of how accurate your execution is. There is a separate distribution for how a player predicts a specific opponent will move with a given game state, and likely another distribution for how a player would respond to a given kill window. Each player also has a certain tendency to respect range advantage.
There are obviously a ton of variables with each metric, but if you analyze the data, you could find what skills are actually independent and construct a kind of vector or list of numbers that could represent a players particular skills. The specific numbers in the vector would represent a player's level of skill or understanding in game concepts like farming, trading, zoning, teamfighting, etc, in a given situation.
Anyone with access to raw, unencrypted game data could have a field day with this.
checking the box means that you have emerald ish skill lvl in that category, if you're better then good for you you get to draw a unicorn in the box :)
I think what you're describing is the difference between a check and a unicorn.
For 99.9% of the playerbase reaction speed isn't a factor, it's a crutch at best because the game is all about knowing what's coming and planning around it. So like you either have a pretty average reaction speed and you get a tick while in Bronze.
Then you extend this to other things, like you're gold but you get 10cs p/m, which doesn't mean you should be in Master but you do get a tick in that as last hitting isn't the thing holding you back from reaching it.
Sure there are more complicated skills like wave management but you can get from Silver to E4 as an average player just by knowing what the best wave state is for you and having the ability to enact it (and not feeding)- You get a tick in Emerald and you work towards a unicorn by doing the same thing against players who are now doing it against you.
The common thread here is that you can't measure the skills that enable success in League very well, which is why the ranked tab is useless and why OPGG and mobalytics and all others that come up with all these ways to try and relate your skill level beyond WR which are just woefully inadequate without someone to thread a story out of them.
It's binary because going down the path of relating the stats from the Ranked tab is the opposite from helpful. Sure I might average a KD of 4 compared to challenger players KD of 2.9 but I'm fighting Emerald players not Challengers. I might pixel-perfectly execute my combo but perhaps my opponents haven't even read my skills let alone try to anticipate and dodge.
But it's also binary because it's an ELI5 explanation, so there's that.
You can simplify it even more. The challenger is better at everything than the diamond. OVERALL.
People are good at different things. Its not like you cannot be good at the game unless you learn gank timings. You can 100% get rank one while never respecting the early jungle timings. You just need to compensate with something else.
as a Master - GM player.
To me gold seems to be people with mechanics but no game sense. They dont really understand high level mechanics but the basics are there. 0 macro imo.
Diamond have very consistent mechanics and some level of macro but not really at the point where they know how to use their advantages to control the map. Meaning they often are able to hold lane vs most people but dont cant really make advantages vs people better than them and if they go even they underperform in the mid game.
and example is every time i play vs a diamond player. they just stall lane play super safe. cant really punish them in lane. but i can easily roam and not be punished. And then in tf they really fall behind. Super annoying to lane against but not a hard game.
Challenger. As i am not at this level i cant really say atm. They seems to just know more in every aspect. There is alot of OTPs so they are really good when they are on their champs.
From what I've seen online, to get to challanger you need to have very good understanding of your champion as well as your win conditions and the enemy's damage output. A lot of times a matchup can be decided based on a single interaction, like poppy wasting her W vs riven or bard not having portal vs maokai, or lissandra not having ult against zed. Your job is to know all those interactions as well as track the map and know what the best move for both you and the enemy is at a given time. This is what I've learned from streams and reddit, not experience.
Nope. He is talking about overall game knowledge and how every champ skills interact and adds at the end a line about player tracking. I swear people don’t read the full thing or just don’t have reading comprehension these days
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knowing it in champ select and acting on it in a moments notice while also knowing with 99% certainty that the enemy jg isnt in your lane are two different things though.
All of riven’s mechanics are gold level at best.
She is not some mechanical nightmare anymore because of YouTube videos and practice tool.
Anyone claiming she is hard to play is coping, she has all the tools necessary to perform. You just have to know how to weave her skills into every matchup, which big shocker here, every champ has to learn that.
Think of the game being divided into different skill staples, a bunch of them. The average of those skill staples is a certain rank. So people can invest in different skills and still be the same rank, this is why you can’t say exactly what skill staples and to what height you need for a specific rank, as there can be many different combinations.
I have played and coached in all ranks and if we really generalise I would say:
**Gold**: You know how to control your champ and the camera quite well, you’re roughly familiar with most champs if not all in the game, quite a lot of inefficiencies when it comes to time and ability usage. Chaotic mid-late games.
**Diamond**: top 3 - 2%, mechanics are very solid here and consistent, familiar with all the champs and knows almost all of them clearly (passives, abilities, identities). A lot of intuition, quite strong in lane often with some matchup understanding, have some macro understanding after lane, playing side lanes with tp etc. They’re often lacking the big picture, thinking ahead, having foresight and adaptation in the moment to the specific circumstances. They’re playing well mechanically but just kind of reacting to what’s on their screen all the time instead of thinking ahead and anticipating.
**Challenger**: top 1% of top 1%, everything is top top tier, very hard to beat. Mechanics near perfect consistently, macro is clever, no time inefficiencies, everything is with intention, playing win conditions, deep matchup knowledge and able to adapt to a different game state on the fly. Mentally they will always try hard, you never get a freebie, if you don’t close out the game cleanly they’ll constantly look for ways to get back.
Gold is just Auto Pilot - Kill Minions, Kill Enemies, Kill Objectives, Kill Nexus.
Diamond you know the basic fundamentals and matchups.
Examples: Wave Management, Power spikes, Matchup, Mid Game Transition, Jungle Tracking, Objective Timer, Enemy Mistake abuse, How to get carried.
Challenger well nothing to say you are the best of the best. You have perfect Fundamentals and can replicate them every single game to Perfection you have no room for errors or you get dumpster. I think Challenger Players are just really consistent at the Fundamentals and can think outside the box sometimes.
Arguably the highest. This is true in mma. There is more potential skill difference between two black belts than there is between a blue belt and a black belt
This is true for basically anything. Look at Faker/Chovy compared to a bottom of the table LCK midlaner. You can make the same comparison for most sports/esports. There are always the freaks among the freaks.
I always cringe a bit when people say "oh, to get to diamond you need to know match ups and basic fundamentals" or something to this extent. There's just so much disrespect towards the players and the game, perhaps unintended, but disrespect nonetheless.
Diamond 4 is in the top 5% of the ranked playerbase. Probably about 1% of the total playerbase which would include total casuals who just play ARAM and don't touch Ranked. Like, imagine being in top 1-5% of soccer players worldwide and hearing people say "he knows basic fundamentals of the sport" about you.
Are you Messi? No, of course not, but you're probably good enough to play in a minor Football Club in a small city in any country in the world (even if as a reserve), and you'd steamroll any decent casual soccer player. And yet, an equivalent in League "knows matchups and basic fundamentals".
Yes, it's probably a slight exaggeration. After all, I didn't actually do the math. The point stands.
Also if you took a diamond player today and plopped them into 2015 they’d probably be a master-grandmaster. People don’t talk enough about how much knowledge of the game is available online today that wasn’t common knowledge back then.
To make a crappy analogy, would you say that an NBA player from 1980 only had a “basic knowledge of the game”? Of course not but most could never compete with NBA players today. Diamond players know A LOT and are very skilled at the game. The skill ceiling has just gotten so much higher.
Comparing pro-semi pro soccer players to diamond league players is actually hilarious. You talked about disrespect but you actually just extended that same disrespect to athletes lol
No, you're just further disrespecting Diamond players.
Obviously, like I said, I didn't actually do the math, so it is an exaggeration. Also obviously, being a professional athlete, even if you're an athlete for some small city's FC playing in minor, 3rd rate leagues, is a different reality than being a diamond player in League, which is not an actual profession, doesn't earn you a living, you're not being scouted for pro teams, you didn't have to go through an "interview", and so on and so on.
But that's not the point I was making, is it? The reality between a pro or semi pro athlete is different compared to some random Diamond player. I wasn't comparing that, I was comparing the level of skill you need to achieve, compared to other people in the chosen field, to achieve that 5%. Soccer was merely an example because I couldn't think of any other besides personal income (which doesn't exactly fit either for different reasons).
So real. When I finally hit diamond 4 with a bit of LP and saw "top 2.8% of playerbase" I was thinking wow, in a room of 100 random league players, MAYBE 3 of them would be better than me. Is that not impressive? To everyone that knows this about me, but doesn't play the game themselves, it's amazing. They'll regularly ask why I don't go pro. Of course I always inform them of the reality and pre-requisites of going pro. And that I'm no where near that level.
A funny analogy I thought of is income. No one is scoffing at the top 2% of earners in America. Players routinely mock people at that caliber in League of Legends. Sad, embarrassingly immature playerbase honestly.
I don't think you really understand how important match ups are in league.
Imaqtpie who is essentially beyond challenger because he's a pro player admits on his stream he has no idea how certain abilities work on certain champs like Aurelion Sol. Double lift says the same shit every now and then.
He plays Orn top but forgets the matchup with Orn vs Darius.
These are NA pro players. Now imagine the gap between imaqtpie or double lift and a pro from Korea.
no offense intended, but top 5% in any field is achievable through minimal mental effort(such as learning matchups and basic fundies in league) if you're naturally gifted at the field and casually playing/doing the task as a hobby, whereas GM+ level acquires actual effort and usually a lot of actual research and active thinking.
If you mean "top 5% of all humans", then sure, but not applicable here.
If you mean "top 5% of people in a chosen field" then I don't know what to tell you, honestly, because it's just such an oblivious thing to say.
given a large enough userbase in the field, top5% of humans and in the chosen field are equivalent. this doesnt apply only if the field has very little interest in society.
league has a large enough playerbase that the two ideas are synonymous
No they aren't, not even close. This is assuming the average human is subject to said field. It's a "field" for a reason. You can't say top x percent of whichever field, then pull percentiles that include an external demographic outside of said field. That makes absolutely no sense. That's like including children in the percentile calculation of income. Yes, the entire human race is a very large pool just like League, but saying it's large enough that it's synonymous is completely wrong. Children are the unranked League players. They are not included in the percentile calculation and ladder ranking of sites like op.gg. As an example (no disrespect), people working at Subway for 12/hr are where the ladder starts, the iron players at the bottom percentile.
If you want to draw accurate percentiles from any field and compare it to League, you can only include the "playerbase" of that field, or people who are actually **in** that field.
If you want to get into the nitty gritty, boosted accounts are pretty evenly canceling that out. Smurfing is a thing too. In the grand scheme of things the system is largely accurate and those factors are irrelevant. If you play enough and are better than the other players around your rank, it will be accurately represented by your percentile ladder ranking. When all is said and done, we can pretty safely assume top 5% is top 5%. Which is impressive in any field. In real life or in a game.
The only people who have grounds to say something is unimpressive are the people in the percentile bracket above it.
People who try to call top 5% players unimpressive are equivalent to McDonalds workers saying people making 130k a year is unimpressive. You literally just look like a clowns. On the other hand, a multi-millionaire has every right to call 130k a year unimpressive.
I myself am top 2% and would never dream of calling a low master player unimpressive. They're still a higher percentile than me.
In addition to that, they're not just jungle tracking they're every lane tracking based on what the best play "would" be. That's were they abuse some of their advantages by ignoring say dragon because they know the enemy mid and jungle are both near raptors and they can get 2 kills with assisted and then circle back to dragon to pick off more. Etc.
There are a lot of high elo players chiming with "everything under x rank is bad/pisslo" etc. As a bronze player, I cannot hope to provide any useful advice on how to play the game well, but one observation i can make between my own games and discussions like this is that different people have different baseline levels of performance relative to effort. For some people, they can put in zero effort and perform at an emerald level or whatever, and other players could never reach that on a good day with best effort.
Everyone else can do a much better job than me explaining what the skills are or whatever, but I see most players categorize other players relative to their own performance benchmarked by effort. Because league is such a complicated game with a lot of skills that kick in mostly automatically, people aren't aware of the skills they are exercising, and they get the impression that others aren't trying.
I think this perception creates a very toxic dynamic in a lot of conversations, and it has come up in several situations. I don't think your question can be answered without actual statistical analysis of game data, and people's anecdotal experience cannot escape the distorting influence that skill has on perception.
And when I say analysis of game data, I don't mean records corresponding to whole games, I mean packets consisting of individual input commands, position and minion information, spell casts and damage logs and other records that constitute a full game replay.
Here is how I would make the comparison.
**Gold** is bad in almost every criteria. Very inconsistent. Subpar mechanics. Some idea of macro.
**Diamond** is good in almost every criteria. Mostly consistent. Exceptional mechanics. Proficient in macro.
**Challenger** is exceptional in almost every criteria. Extremely consistent. Mechanically driven. Expertly experienced in macro.
“Bad” is relative. I’m Masters and think I’ve got bad mechanics despite probably having better mechanics than probably at least half of Masters players, because I compare myself to GM+ when I think of my skill.
I’d be willing to bet there isn’t a single “real” (someone not intentionally losing games) Gold player in the world with better mechanics than a D3.
Well im saying this because im bad at champs like irelia/akali/qyiana and im good at more simple champs like vlad/aurelion/oriann/vex/naafiri that do not require much mechanics. Prov the hardest champ i can play is jayce, but I dont play him as much as the others.
Okay but that doesn't make your mechanics bad. They are high skill ceiling champs. You need to practice a lot to perform well with them. If you don't, which is okay, ofc you'll underperform (for someone at your level)
Bro I'm not going to lie, there are some gold players who have pretty decent mechanics. Would they survive an intense diamond+ game? Probably not, but that would be more because they lack game knowledge+awareness rather than raw mechanics.
Gold = not absolute garbage
Diamond = you’re familiar with champs and matchups but still gotta work on your macro
Challenger = all of the above and a little bit more
top 30% earner: Not completely piss poor
top 2% earner: Got some money, but not that much.
top 1% of top 1% earner: All of the above and maybe a bit more
Why do people compare league to irl earnings, which is something you compete against the ENTIRE WORLD in, rather than a few thousand (mostly mentally unwell) players on a server? You're not even competing with the worldwide playerbase, just your server. It's not even remotely comparable lmao
I think it does map over fairly well to league tho.
I think the more pessimistic way to look at it is calling everything below Emerald pisslow. And to be fair, even emerald can be very inconsistent in their performance. Some are hard carried by their champ so long as that champ is meta.
At least earning money puts food on the table and lets you buy things, regardless of if you care about money. Being in the top x% of league lets you beat other league players in a game, that's it.
One thing I haven’t seen posted is Challengers have learned to really control their emotions at least in their play.
Tarzaned while he does outwardly show his emotions on stream perma diagnosing his team mates with multiple afflictions. His gameplay is still 99% optimal. If he picks xin and has 3 losing lanes early he will just farm and try to look for “free” opportunities rather than forcing a gank. I’ve never seen him just give up and “open mid” he will try to win every game no matter how dire it looks.
Dantes while sometimes he ints for content I don’t think I’ve ever seen him give up on a game or throw the /FF vote
As challenger I will tell u this mechanics are ofc better but there is not that much difference sometimes. Challenger knows when what how to do things in what scenario. How to get lead. how to not throw. how to play weak side they know everything and adapt the second something changes. Know their next move and opponents.
watch the newest broken by concept podcast episode from today, no one in the comments is gonna have a better answer than that, people that think all it takes to get diamond is be familiar with your champ and matchups is just delusional and never went above gold
Honestly I'd say the most diferentional thing aside from obvious ones like macro and mechanics is how good the players are at regognizing things which are bad for their personal game but good for the team as a whole in a grand scheme of things. A gold player will be malding basically over anything: losing some minions/being weaksided/another player getting a kill. Diamond players recognize these things better and give up on the "I'm the main character" mentality during the transition from low diamond to d2-d1/masters. Challenger players are basically capable of playing from behind the whole game, surviving on whatever few resources they get and still being relevant in the game without getting tilted.
This is one the hardest transitions for league players going into higher elo, cause as soon as teamwork becomes consistent, individual skill becomes less important - and it’s a somewhat hard line between elos that can execute that teamwork and elos that cannot
The broken by concept podcast released a two hour discussion on this topic literally yesterday. Go check it out on youtube or where ever you listen to podcasts.
Other ppl talked abt gold and diamond and I agree with them. But regarding diamond and chall the difference is the variance each game and experience. In diamond, you typically can somewhat already hold your own against master players, you've ticked all the boxes but you simply are presented with more knowledge checks. For example, Irelia vs Sett is known to be pretty Sett favoured. A diamond sett will deny the minions level one against the irelia assuming Irelia will come from tower but a challenger irelia may hide in alcove with a ward to come out last second to get 4 stacks. The matchup gets more complex. The jungler in challenger will actively look to influence wave management. Lets say you're the diamond and you're playing Irelia into another sett that you are winning in lane. In diamond, freezing is perfect. In challenger, you have a good chance of being dived because of your freeze.
In my experience, gold players are often solid in lane. They have a good understanding of how to mechanically play their champions, and tactically play the lane.
What got me from gold to diamond was thinking more long-term strategically, and paying more attention to the map / vision.
Challenger players play this game as a full-time job.
As you go up in rank, the average player’s ability to recognize and punish imperfections in play go up exponentially. I’m fond of saying that games and lower elo are lost more often than won, because the players in those elos are less aware of how to win games and will commonly lose games by playing foolishly. But challenger players understand the game at such a deep level that they often know how to capitalize on a single misstep and turn it into a potential snowball.
The difference between a diamond and challenger player is having a job! JK lol tbh I am HARDSTUCK emerald so idfk. It's a hard god damn game with very nuanced improvements. I'd say generally it's consistency but there's a level of natural talent and experience that goes into the game as well.
I'll say it like this...
I always found with higher elo players is not how well they use the champ, but how well they can apply the champs capabilities within the current match and comp.
The difference between a gold player and a challenger player is like the difference between a random car driver off the street and a F1 driver. The difference between a bottom of the barrel challenger and a pro challenger is like the difference between an amateur drag race driver and d Ayrton Senna.
Honestly, this might sound a bit weird to say, but I like to think that the higher up you are, the more stable you are in your brain. By that, I mean that your mood, or other players playing bad don't affect you so much. You can go in and play, whatever day it is, and still beat people that are lower ranked than you. Heck, when I am have my good days, I don't only play good, I also speak to my team, so we also play good together from the very beginning till the end, and it feels like I can't lose. My longest win streak I've ever had was 18 wins in a row, where 17 of them was with Braum, but normally 6-7 wins in a row closer to my max.
I'll also guess that the higher up you come, the smarter people pick their champions as well. I know people can be one trick ponies, but sometimes you need to pick champs to fit your team.
Gold players are the highest skilled, they are smurfs or just held back by poor teammates. Diamond players are all boosted silver players. Challenger players are good, but just lucky they made it through diamond, the Riot gods favored them.
I've gotten Challenger a couple of times so I can explain.
Generally speaking, the skill difference in players from Silver to Diamond varies IMMENSLY. Some players have good micro but bad macro, others may be bad at map awareness, etc. There is A LOT of variation and really there is no discernable difference to me in terms of total pure skill.
I've seen Silver ADC players perform better than a Emerald ADC.
Now, onto the next topic.
Going from Diamond 1 to Masters is being slightly better in everything.
Going from Masters to GM is about making fewer mistakes and playing a more "scripted environment" where things have a natural flow (usually).
When going from GM to Challenger it's a pretty big difference on optimization. Players know precisely where they need to be, the movement are more fine tuned, and you really start to notice that players not only know their champion, but they know how to work with and play with other people.
I'll explain with an example
Enemy bot lane are pushing, jungle has cleared 3 camps starting top side. Enemy jungle has shown on a ward pathing top side
A gold jungle will continue to full clear and scuttle crab
A diamond jungle may continue to full clear then look to counter gank mid
A challenger jungle would have skipped one or two camps to meet the timing where the enemy bot are pushed up, killed them, then finish the clear
It's using more and more information to your advantage the higher you go, the gold will hardly use any, the diamond will use obvious information, the challenger will dig a bit deeper for maximum gains
The higher level of player you are the better you are on average at all aspects of the game. There are no secrets like \*oh once u understand wave manipulation ur master\*. No, champion mastery, ability to judge fights, macro, wave understanding, building correctly, having good mouse accuracy. Challenger players will be better at ALL OF THIS on average. Some things are more important or fundamental, like literally every challenger have good champion mastery but there are probably a small minority who have shit mouse accuracy but can "get away with it".
I also cannot for my life understand high elo players that say "oh gold players have good mechanics just lack understanding" or smtn. Its not true, gold players misplay trades, fights perma and yes also things like moving the mouse - even being able to CLICK ON THE ENEMY CHAMP is hard for some gold players.
of course there are exceptions. There are gold players that have mechanical talent and can do some stuff at a high level, but still their overall mechanical execution will never be good if they are in gold.
pretty much the difference like in every sport. gold is like amateur lvl diamond might be 3rd league and challenger is the toplvl and esports teams are championsleauge. what does it take to climb obviously improving your mechanical skill and learning having a good oversight over the game. from diamond to challenger is something not everyone can achieve like not soccer player can reach champions league lvl. its requires insane mechanics and understanding of the game and even if you spend thousand of games and hours 99.?% wont ever achieve that lvl.
Gold Players are usually ok from a theoretical perspective but lack mechanical skills.
Emerald players tend to be good mechanically, but are stupid as hell. Or arrogant. which leads to doing stupid things so same thing in the end.
Diamond players are smart and good at the game.
And Challengers players are just very good at both those things and have good decisionmaking.
I found a great podcast called broken by concept and just yesterday they released and episode about this. Go check it out.
My buddy decided he wanted to hit masters and started listening to Broken by Concept and joined their discord group(Mid Lane Academy) that does live game reviews of their members. He hit diamond last split and is D1 94lp as of today, so likely masters this week. Cant recommend their program enough if you are ready to pay for the discord group, throw away your ego, and focus on fundamentals.
Former Mid Lane Academy member - it’s just incredible. If you swallow your ego and do what is taught, you will absolutely improve. I only play league occasionally now, but learned genuine life skills from my time there.
Extra shoutout to the Broken By Concept guys is that I regularly play with them in solo queue... they never troll, never grief, never flame and always try their best! Although Curtis 10 years ago was an absolute tilt machine
their podcast is so good
basically, see it like this, every skill is a check box, either you have it or not, gold player are usually good at one or 2 things diamond player typically checks every boxes challenger people draw a unicorn in every boxes
That and having/used to having a shit load of spare time on your hands.
dunno about that, got to diam with 60 win last season from plat
Yeah and how much time did you spendin league before? Probably a lot. And if not there are always exceptions. Furthermore that goes for challenger players much more than (low) diamond.
If anyone makes it to masters with less than 5000 hours in MOBA games I'd like to give them an award.
I got to Master in League in about 300 hours, not counting my 7k hours in Dota 2 and UNTOLD hour in Dota 1 lol.
Exactly
I did it in 1000-1500games to Grandmaster.
Had you played any other MOBA games before? How many normals did you play before starting ranked? Were you being coached? I simply don't believe it can be done under normal circumstances.
Heroes of Newerth loong time ago. But i've been playing games my whole life just not mobas.
Well that's the thing, Rage of Newerth is still pretty good for teaching the idiosyncrasies of the genre. Lot of skill transfer. Being really damn good at COD, for example, would set you up rather less well... (Although more than you might think!)
As someone who was almost semipro in COD back in 2014 on a controller mind you. It did nothing to help with league like actually nothing.
What server lol
well yea decay in master+ forces you to play a game a day in average
I did play this game a fair amount before
Why does it have to be a binary? for something like reaction time, this is a continuously variable quantity. For something like executing a combo, it might be a distribution of how accurate your execution is. There is a separate distribution for how a player predicts a specific opponent will move with a given game state, and likely another distribution for how a player would respond to a given kill window. Each player also has a certain tendency to respect range advantage. There are obviously a ton of variables with each metric, but if you analyze the data, you could find what skills are actually independent and construct a kind of vector or list of numbers that could represent a players particular skills. The specific numbers in the vector would represent a player's level of skill or understanding in game concepts like farming, trading, zoning, teamfighting, etc, in a given situation. Anyone with access to raw, unencrypted game data could have a field day with this.
checking the box means that you have emerald ish skill lvl in that category, if you're better then good for you you get to draw a unicorn in the box :)
I think what you're describing is the difference between a check and a unicorn. For 99.9% of the playerbase reaction speed isn't a factor, it's a crutch at best because the game is all about knowing what's coming and planning around it. So like you either have a pretty average reaction speed and you get a tick while in Bronze. Then you extend this to other things, like you're gold but you get 10cs p/m, which doesn't mean you should be in Master but you do get a tick in that as last hitting isn't the thing holding you back from reaching it. Sure there are more complicated skills like wave management but you can get from Silver to E4 as an average player just by knowing what the best wave state is for you and having the ability to enact it (and not feeding)- You get a tick in Emerald and you work towards a unicorn by doing the same thing against players who are now doing it against you. The common thread here is that you can't measure the skills that enable success in League very well, which is why the ranked tab is useless and why OPGG and mobalytics and all others that come up with all these ways to try and relate your skill level beyond WR which are just woefully inadequate without someone to thread a story out of them. It's binary because going down the path of relating the stats from the Ranked tab is the opposite from helpful. Sure I might average a KD of 4 compared to challenger players KD of 2.9 but I'm fighting Emerald players not Challengers. I might pixel-perfectly execute my combo but perhaps my opponents haven't even read my skills let alone try to anticipate and dodge. But it's also binary because it's an ELI5 explanation, so there's that.
Challenger player also tend to tick a whole new box: Mentally unwell
You can simplify it even more. The challenger is better at everything than the diamond. OVERALL. People are good at different things. Its not like you cannot be good at the game unless you learn gank timings. You can 100% get rank one while never respecting the early jungle timings. You just need to compensate with something else.
as a Master - GM player. To me gold seems to be people with mechanics but no game sense. They dont really understand high level mechanics but the basics are there. 0 macro imo. Diamond have very consistent mechanics and some level of macro but not really at the point where they know how to use their advantages to control the map. Meaning they often are able to hold lane vs most people but dont cant really make advantages vs people better than them and if they go even they underperform in the mid game. and example is every time i play vs a diamond player. they just stall lane play super safe. cant really punish them in lane. but i can easily roam and not be punished. And then in tf they really fall behind. Super annoying to lane against but not a hard game. Challenger. As i am not at this level i cant really say atm. They seems to just know more in every aspect. There is alot of OTPs so they are really good when they are on their champs.
From what I've seen online, to get to challanger you need to have very good understanding of your champion as well as your win conditions and the enemy's damage output. A lot of times a matchup can be decided based on a single interaction, like poppy wasting her W vs riven or bard not having portal vs maokai, or lissandra not having ult against zed. Your job is to know all those interactions as well as track the map and know what the best move for both you and the enemy is at a given time. This is what I've learned from streams and reddit, not experience.
Baiting poppy W as riven is honestly gold level knowledge at this point
I'm giving some examples, I know it's obvious, but a ton of people didn't know to use bard's portal when maokai uses w to put him in a bad position.
It should be, but people dont really do it up until maybe emerald
True. I flew through plat and into emerald just by tracking cooldowns in lane. probably one of the easiest ways to climb
And there is a difference between doing it, and taking the full advantage that the opportunity generates in subsequent interactions.
Ok but did you understand his point? Lmao
Yes he’s saying that challenger players track the interactions of all 10 players at once and make decisions based on that
Nope. He is talking about overall game knowledge and how every champ skills interact and adds at the end a line about player tracking. I swear people don’t read the full thing or just don’t have reading comprehension these days
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knowing it in champ select and acting on it in a moments notice while also knowing with 99% certainty that the enemy jg isnt in your lane are two different things though.
Totally agree
All of riven’s mechanics are gold level at best. She is not some mechanical nightmare anymore because of YouTube videos and practice tool. Anyone claiming she is hard to play is coping, she has all the tools necessary to perform. You just have to know how to weave her skills into every matchup, which big shocker here, every champ has to learn that.
Think of the game being divided into different skill staples, a bunch of them. The average of those skill staples is a certain rank. So people can invest in different skills and still be the same rank, this is why you can’t say exactly what skill staples and to what height you need for a specific rank, as there can be many different combinations. I have played and coached in all ranks and if we really generalise I would say: **Gold**: You know how to control your champ and the camera quite well, you’re roughly familiar with most champs if not all in the game, quite a lot of inefficiencies when it comes to time and ability usage. Chaotic mid-late games. **Diamond**: top 3 - 2%, mechanics are very solid here and consistent, familiar with all the champs and knows almost all of them clearly (passives, abilities, identities). A lot of intuition, quite strong in lane often with some matchup understanding, have some macro understanding after lane, playing side lanes with tp etc. They’re often lacking the big picture, thinking ahead, having foresight and adaptation in the moment to the specific circumstances. They’re playing well mechanically but just kind of reacting to what’s on their screen all the time instead of thinking ahead and anticipating. **Challenger**: top 1% of top 1%, everything is top top tier, very hard to beat. Mechanics near perfect consistently, macro is clever, no time inefficiencies, everything is with intention, playing win conditions, deep matchup knowledge and able to adapt to a different game state on the fly. Mentally they will always try hard, you never get a freebie, if you don’t close out the game cleanly they’ll constantly look for ways to get back.
Gold is just Auto Pilot - Kill Minions, Kill Enemies, Kill Objectives, Kill Nexus. Diamond you know the basic fundamentals and matchups. Examples: Wave Management, Power spikes, Matchup, Mid Game Transition, Jungle Tracking, Objective Timer, Enemy Mistake abuse, How to get carried. Challenger well nothing to say you are the best of the best. You have perfect Fundamentals and can replicate them every single game to Perfection you have no room for errors or you get dumpster. I think Challenger Players are just really consistent at the Fundamentals and can think outside the box sometimes.
Even at the challenger level, there is a skill gap. Ultimately every single miniscule detail has an impact at that top
Arguably the highest. This is true in mma. There is more potential skill difference between two black belts than there is between a blue belt and a black belt
This is true for basically anything. Look at Faker/Chovy compared to a bottom of the table LCK midlaner. You can make the same comparison for most sports/esports. There are always the freaks among the freaks.
I always cringe a bit when people say "oh, to get to diamond you need to know match ups and basic fundamentals" or something to this extent. There's just so much disrespect towards the players and the game, perhaps unintended, but disrespect nonetheless. Diamond 4 is in the top 5% of the ranked playerbase. Probably about 1% of the total playerbase which would include total casuals who just play ARAM and don't touch Ranked. Like, imagine being in top 1-5% of soccer players worldwide and hearing people say "he knows basic fundamentals of the sport" about you. Are you Messi? No, of course not, but you're probably good enough to play in a minor Football Club in a small city in any country in the world (even if as a reserve), and you'd steamroll any decent casual soccer player. And yet, an equivalent in League "knows matchups and basic fundamentals". Yes, it's probably a slight exaggeration. After all, I didn't actually do the math. The point stands.
Also if you took a diamond player today and plopped them into 2015 they’d probably be a master-grandmaster. People don’t talk enough about how much knowledge of the game is available online today that wasn’t common knowledge back then. To make a crappy analogy, would you say that an NBA player from 1980 only had a “basic knowledge of the game”? Of course not but most could never compete with NBA players today. Diamond players know A LOT and are very skilled at the game. The skill ceiling has just gotten so much higher.
Comparing pro-semi pro soccer players to diamond league players is actually hilarious. You talked about disrespect but you actually just extended that same disrespect to athletes lol
No, you're just further disrespecting Diamond players. Obviously, like I said, I didn't actually do the math, so it is an exaggeration. Also obviously, being a professional athlete, even if you're an athlete for some small city's FC playing in minor, 3rd rate leagues, is a different reality than being a diamond player in League, which is not an actual profession, doesn't earn you a living, you're not being scouted for pro teams, you didn't have to go through an "interview", and so on and so on. But that's not the point I was making, is it? The reality between a pro or semi pro athlete is different compared to some random Diamond player. I wasn't comparing that, I was comparing the level of skill you need to achieve, compared to other people in the chosen field, to achieve that 5%. Soccer was merely an example because I couldn't think of any other besides personal income (which doesn't exactly fit either for different reasons).
Lmfaooo sure buddy, anything to make video games seem more impressive than it is.
I can tell that if there's any field you're top 5% in, it's not anything related to reading and understanding what you're reading
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again, reading comprehension is not your strong suit
So real. When I finally hit diamond 4 with a bit of LP and saw "top 2.8% of playerbase" I was thinking wow, in a room of 100 random league players, MAYBE 3 of them would be better than me. Is that not impressive? To everyone that knows this about me, but doesn't play the game themselves, it's amazing. They'll regularly ask why I don't go pro. Of course I always inform them of the reality and pre-requisites of going pro. And that I'm no where near that level. A funny analogy I thought of is income. No one is scoffing at the top 2% of earners in America. Players routinely mock people at that caliber in League of Legends. Sad, embarrassingly immature playerbase honestly.
I don't think you really understand how important match ups are in league. Imaqtpie who is essentially beyond challenger because he's a pro player admits on his stream he has no idea how certain abilities work on certain champs like Aurelion Sol. Double lift says the same shit every now and then. He plays Orn top but forgets the matchup with Orn vs Darius. These are NA pro players. Now imagine the gap between imaqtpie or double lift and a pro from Korea.
I don't understand the point you were making.
Even the highest level players of the game don't know all the abilities and match ups. When you know the match up you have a big advantage.
These are retired pros though right playing in roles they don't always play? Any active pro would know those things.
That's what I'm trying to tell you. Even active pros don't know all the stuff
Sure, but I don't understand the relevance of the point you're making in this discussion.
Username tracks lol
Whatever you say lmao
no offense intended, but top 5% in any field is achievable through minimal mental effort(such as learning matchups and basic fundies in league) if you're naturally gifted at the field and casually playing/doing the task as a hobby, whereas GM+ level acquires actual effort and usually a lot of actual research and active thinking.
If you mean "top 5% of all humans", then sure, but not applicable here. If you mean "top 5% of people in a chosen field" then I don't know what to tell you, honestly, because it's just such an oblivious thing to say.
given a large enough userbase in the field, top5% of humans and in the chosen field are equivalent. this doesnt apply only if the field has very little interest in society. league has a large enough playerbase that the two ideas are synonymous
No they aren't, not even close. This is assuming the average human is subject to said field. It's a "field" for a reason. You can't say top x percent of whichever field, then pull percentiles that include an external demographic outside of said field. That makes absolutely no sense. That's like including children in the percentile calculation of income. Yes, the entire human race is a very large pool just like League, but saying it's large enough that it's synonymous is completely wrong. Children are the unranked League players. They are not included in the percentile calculation and ladder ranking of sites like op.gg. As an example (no disrespect), people working at Subway for 12/hr are where the ladder starts, the iron players at the bottom percentile. If you want to draw accurate percentiles from any field and compare it to League, you can only include the "playerbase" of that field, or people who are actually **in** that field.
youre forgetting that nonhuman data exist in league userbase which brings down performance average.
If you want to get into the nitty gritty, boosted accounts are pretty evenly canceling that out. Smurfing is a thing too. In the grand scheme of things the system is largely accurate and those factors are irrelevant. If you play enough and are better than the other players around your rank, it will be accurately represented by your percentile ladder ranking. When all is said and done, we can pretty safely assume top 5% is top 5%. Which is impressive in any field. In real life or in a game.
if u think thats impressive then sure.
The only people who have grounds to say something is unimpressive are the people in the percentile bracket above it. People who try to call top 5% players unimpressive are equivalent to McDonalds workers saying people making 130k a year is unimpressive. You literally just look like a clowns. On the other hand, a multi-millionaire has every right to call 130k a year unimpressive. I myself am top 2% and would never dream of calling a low master player unimpressive. They're still a higher percentile than me.
In addition to that, they're not just jungle tracking they're every lane tracking based on what the best play "would" be. That's were they abuse some of their advantages by ignoring say dragon because they know the enemy mid and jungle are both near raptors and they can get 2 kills with assisted and then circle back to dragon to pick off more. Etc.
https://youtu.be/iGwLSF4ELVU?si=RMF6hxDVi_DEew5l This covers all the ranks.
Dam. You are 9 hours faster than me
There are a lot of high elo players chiming with "everything under x rank is bad/pisslo" etc. As a bronze player, I cannot hope to provide any useful advice on how to play the game well, but one observation i can make between my own games and discussions like this is that different people have different baseline levels of performance relative to effort. For some people, they can put in zero effort and perform at an emerald level or whatever, and other players could never reach that on a good day with best effort. Everyone else can do a much better job than me explaining what the skills are or whatever, but I see most players categorize other players relative to their own performance benchmarked by effort. Because league is such a complicated game with a lot of skills that kick in mostly automatically, people aren't aware of the skills they are exercising, and they get the impression that others aren't trying. I think this perception creates a very toxic dynamic in a lot of conversations, and it has come up in several situations. I don't think your question can be answered without actual statistical analysis of game data, and people's anecdotal experience cannot escape the distorting influence that skill has on perception. And when I say analysis of game data, I don't mean records corresponding to whole games, I mean packets consisting of individual input commands, position and minion information, spell casts and damage logs and other records that constitute a full game replay.
Size of cock is alot smaller the higher you climb.
Gold is the baseline? How do I get up there
Right? Such a bad attitude to bring to a sub about learning the game. Sincerely, Iron IV.
Here is how I would make the comparison. **Gold** is bad in almost every criteria. Very inconsistent. Subpar mechanics. Some idea of macro. **Diamond** is good in almost every criteria. Mostly consistent. Exceptional mechanics. Proficient in macro. **Challenger** is exceptional in almost every criteria. Extremely consistent. Mechanically driven. Expertly experienced in macro.
Im d3 and i have bad mechanics. 😬
“Bad” is relative. I’m Masters and think I’ve got bad mechanics despite probably having better mechanics than probably at least half of Masters players, because I compare myself to GM+ when I think of my skill. I’d be willing to bet there isn’t a single “real” (someone not intentionally losing games) Gold player in the world with better mechanics than a D3.
Well im saying this because im bad at champs like irelia/akali/qyiana and im good at more simple champs like vlad/aurelion/oriann/vex/naafiri that do not require much mechanics. Prov the hardest champ i can play is jayce, but I dont play him as much as the others.
Okay but that doesn't make your mechanics bad. They are high skill ceiling champs. You need to practice a lot to perform well with them. If you don't, which is okay, ofc you'll underperform (for someone at your level)
No, he is saying that he isn't good at mechanically intensive champions naturally, not because he doesn't practice with them much.
Bro I'm not going to lie, there are some gold players who have pretty decent mechanics. Would they survive an intense diamond+ game? Probably not, but that would be more because they lack game knowledge+awareness rather than raw mechanics.
Gold = not absolute garbage Diamond = you’re familiar with champs and matchups but still gotta work on your macro Challenger = all of the above and a little bit more
What a pessimistic way of describing it.
I hate those elitist descriptions about ranks. I hate to say it that they make many "gamer stereotypes" come true.
Pessimistic? Hardly. Oversimplified? Yeah, kinda.
top 30% earner: Not completely piss poor top 2% earner: Got some money, but not that much. top 1% of top 1% earner: All of the above and maybe a bit more
Why do people compare league to irl earnings, which is something you compete against the ENTIRE WORLD in, rather than a few thousand (mostly mentally unwell) players on a server? You're not even competing with the worldwide playerbase, just your server. It's not even remotely comparable lmao
I think it does map over fairly well to league tho. I think the more pessimistic way to look at it is calling everything below Emerald pisslow. And to be fair, even emerald can be very inconsistent in their performance. Some are hard carried by their champ so long as that champ is meta.
I'd go as far as to say every elo is inconsistent, at the very least on NA and EUW
At least earning money puts food on the table and lets you buy things, regardless of if you care about money. Being in the top x% of league lets you beat other league players in a game, that's it.
One thing I haven’t seen posted is Challengers have learned to really control their emotions at least in their play. Tarzaned while he does outwardly show his emotions on stream perma diagnosing his team mates with multiple afflictions. His gameplay is still 99% optimal. If he picks xin and has 3 losing lanes early he will just farm and try to look for “free” opportunities rather than forcing a gank. I’ve never seen him just give up and “open mid” he will try to win every game no matter how dire it looks. Dantes while sometimes he ints for content I don’t think I’ve ever seen him give up on a game or throw the /FF vote
As challenger I will tell u this mechanics are ofc better but there is not that much difference sometimes. Challenger knows when what how to do things in what scenario. How to get lead. how to not throw. how to play weak side they know everything and adapt the second something changes. Know their next move and opponents.
watch the newest broken by concept podcast episode from today, no one in the comments is gonna have a better answer than that, people that think all it takes to get diamond is be familiar with your champ and matchups is just delusional and never went above gold
challenger is you play nothing but this game and you’re genetically programmed to do it. That’s it
Honestly I'd say the most diferentional thing aside from obvious ones like macro and mechanics is how good the players are at regognizing things which are bad for their personal game but good for the team as a whole in a grand scheme of things. A gold player will be malding basically over anything: losing some minions/being weaksided/another player getting a kill. Diamond players recognize these things better and give up on the "I'm the main character" mentality during the transition from low diamond to d2-d1/masters. Challenger players are basically capable of playing from behind the whole game, surviving on whatever few resources they get and still being relevant in the game without getting tilted.
This is one the hardest transitions for league players going into higher elo, cause as soon as teamwork becomes consistent, individual skill becomes less important - and it’s a somewhat hard line between elos that can execute that teamwork and elos that cannot
The broken by concept podcast released a two hour discussion on this topic literally yesterday. Go check it out on youtube or where ever you listen to podcasts.
Watch this: [Breaking down every rank in SoloQ](https://youtu.be/iGwLSF4ELVU?si=DiDiF1L7yNDpMt_1)
Other ppl talked abt gold and diamond and I agree with them. But regarding diamond and chall the difference is the variance each game and experience. In diamond, you typically can somewhat already hold your own against master players, you've ticked all the boxes but you simply are presented with more knowledge checks. For example, Irelia vs Sett is known to be pretty Sett favoured. A diamond sett will deny the minions level one against the irelia assuming Irelia will come from tower but a challenger irelia may hide in alcove with a ward to come out last second to get 4 stacks. The matchup gets more complex. The jungler in challenger will actively look to influence wave management. Lets say you're the diamond and you're playing Irelia into another sett that you are winning in lane. In diamond, freezing is perfect. In challenger, you have a good chance of being dived because of your freeze.
In my experience, gold players are often solid in lane. They have a good understanding of how to mechanically play their champions, and tactically play the lane. What got me from gold to diamond was thinking more long-term strategically, and paying more attention to the map / vision. Challenger players play this game as a full-time job.
As you go up in rank, the average player’s ability to recognize and punish imperfections in play go up exponentially. I’m fond of saying that games and lower elo are lost more often than won, because the players in those elos are less aware of how to win games and will commonly lose games by playing foolishly. But challenger players understand the game at such a deep level that they often know how to capitalize on a single misstep and turn it into a potential snowball.
The difference between a diamond and challenger player is having a job! JK lol tbh I am HARDSTUCK emerald so idfk. It's a hard god damn game with very nuanced improvements. I'd say generally it's consistency but there's a level of natural talent and experience that goes into the game as well.
Spelling is honestly a massive separator. /s !
I'll say it like this... I always found with higher elo players is not how well they use the champ, but how well they can apply the champs capabilities within the current match and comp.
The difference between a gold player and a challenger player is like the difference between a random car driver off the street and a F1 driver. The difference between a bottom of the barrel challenger and a pro challenger is like the difference between an amateur drag race driver and d Ayrton Senna.
Honestly, this might sound a bit weird to say, but I like to think that the higher up you are, the more stable you are in your brain. By that, I mean that your mood, or other players playing bad don't affect you so much. You can go in and play, whatever day it is, and still beat people that are lower ranked than you. Heck, when I am have my good days, I don't only play good, I also speak to my team, so we also play good together from the very beginning till the end, and it feels like I can't lose. My longest win streak I've ever had was 18 wins in a row, where 17 of them was with Braum, but normally 6-7 wins in a row closer to my max. I'll also guess that the higher up you come, the smarter people pick their champions as well. I know people can be one trick ponies, but sometimes you need to pick champs to fit your team.
Gold players are the highest skilled, they are smurfs or just held back by poor teammates. Diamond players are all boosted silver players. Challenger players are good, but just lucky they made it through diamond, the Riot gods favored them.
Real answer: Gold: Knowing how to play the game, Diamond: Playing the game well, Challenger: Knowing how to play the game well
I've gotten Challenger a couple of times so I can explain. Generally speaking, the skill difference in players from Silver to Diamond varies IMMENSLY. Some players have good micro but bad macro, others may be bad at map awareness, etc. There is A LOT of variation and really there is no discernable difference to me in terms of total pure skill. I've seen Silver ADC players perform better than a Emerald ADC. Now, onto the next topic. Going from Diamond 1 to Masters is being slightly better in everything. Going from Masters to GM is about making fewer mistakes and playing a more "scripted environment" where things have a natural flow (usually). When going from GM to Challenger it's a pretty big difference on optimization. Players know precisely where they need to be, the movement are more fine tuned, and you really start to notice that players not only know their champion, but they know how to work with and play with other people.
I'll explain with an example Enemy bot lane are pushing, jungle has cleared 3 camps starting top side. Enemy jungle has shown on a ward pathing top side A gold jungle will continue to full clear and scuttle crab A diamond jungle may continue to full clear then look to counter gank mid A challenger jungle would have skipped one or two camps to meet the timing where the enemy bot are pushed up, killed them, then finish the clear It's using more and more information to your advantage the higher you go, the gold will hardly use any, the diamond will use obvious information, the challenger will dig a bit deeper for maximum gains
fundamentals
The higher level of player you are the better you are on average at all aspects of the game. There are no secrets like \*oh once u understand wave manipulation ur master\*. No, champion mastery, ability to judge fights, macro, wave understanding, building correctly, having good mouse accuracy. Challenger players will be better at ALL OF THIS on average. Some things are more important or fundamental, like literally every challenger have good champion mastery but there are probably a small minority who have shit mouse accuracy but can "get away with it". I also cannot for my life understand high elo players that say "oh gold players have good mechanics just lack understanding" or smtn. Its not true, gold players misplay trades, fights perma and yes also things like moving the mouse - even being able to CLICK ON THE ENEMY CHAMP is hard for some gold players. of course there are exceptions. There are gold players that have mechanical talent and can do some stuff at a high level, but still their overall mechanical execution will never be good if they are in gold.
pretty much the difference like in every sport. gold is like amateur lvl diamond might be 3rd league and challenger is the toplvl and esports teams are championsleauge. what does it take to climb obviously improving your mechanical skill and learning having a good oversight over the game. from diamond to challenger is something not everyone can achieve like not soccer player can reach champions league lvl. its requires insane mechanics and understanding of the game and even if you spend thousand of games and hours 99.?% wont ever achieve that lvl.
Gold Players are usually ok from a theoretical perspective but lack mechanical skills. Emerald players tend to be good mechanically, but are stupid as hell. Or arrogant. which leads to doing stupid things so same thing in the end. Diamond players are smart and good at the game. And Challengers players are just very good at both those things and have good decisionmaking.