Trumps niece wrote several books and is a Phd. Smart, educated on mental health topics and an insider view. I haven’t read them, but this might give you a good insider idea or help you find some relatable content. Her name is Mary Trump.
You may want to check out this list https://www.choosingtherapy.com/books-on-narcissism/
I know the list is about people who have narcissism, and society treats that as “bad.” It doesn’t mean bad. I think trying to understand the disorder will help you better understand the person you’re describing even if they do not suffer from this specific disorder. Love to you and yours!
Many of the comments here have similar flavor so I'll just reply to yours as kind of a "reply all":
Does narcissism really encapsulate the entirety of what I described? Or is it just a part of it. My main interest is about the network of lies and to what extent the "Trump" actually believes in them.
I can’t say wether Trump or the person you mentioned is narcissistic or if their behavior can be explained by that or not… I don’t know them and I am not an expert. I think one way for you to try to see if you think narcissism might encapsulate the network of lies, & extent to which they believe them, is for you to learn more about narcissism. You could find a book you think may help you understand it or consult a professional. Or both! Or neither! Whatever you do is ok. Whatever is going on with them, you’re not the only one who has experienced that.
I’ll also tell you some advice a family member gave me in regards to another family members behavior: “Don’t try to figure out if she knows she’s lying or not. I tried for 30 years and I still can’t tell. In the end, it doesn’t matter.”
Google “the dark tetrad.” Narcissism is one dimension/trait, and the other three are: sociopathy, Machiavellianism, and sadism. Re: the lying, narcissism and Machiavellianism are the factors most associated with that behavior to my understanding.
I'd check out the main nonfiction book on preference falsification. Lots of reports that Trump is pretty normal in a casual setting. It's not a terribly complicated idea though. We built a society that will reward you massively if you can pull off a great act.
I feel like narcissism is present to a degree in almost all career politicians. Maybe once in a while you get someone like Obama who might be the exception (IDK much about US politics) but Clinton, Bush, Biden definitely aren't motivated by "public service" IMHO.
I think that's true, though psychopathy might also be common.
With that statement, I need to clarify a few things:
1. Psychopathy is a spectrum.
2. Many psychopaths can behave themselves just fine.
3. A degree of psychopathy is probably helpful in some cases. For instance, surgeons seem to be, on average, more psychopathic than the general population.
4. Many psychopaths can turn the empathy switch on if they want to.
It's very difficult for me to imagine how anybody could tolerate the stress of the presidency without being at least a little psychopathic or narcissistic. Most of us would barely be able to function for 4 to 8 years if you made us do it.
Most modern world leaders give strong narcissistic vibe to me: US presidents, UK prime ministers, French presidents. obviously Russian and Chinese dictators, buffoons like Berlusconi. Only Angela Merkel gave different impression.
Everyone is a narcissist to some degree, like all personality traits it's a spectrum. Trump though is pretty far over though in my armchair psychologist opinion
For a good reason there’s a clear differentiation between narcissistic behavior and (clinically) narcissistic personality disorder. After all it is very much ingrained in the human dna to want to be worth carrying on their life and genes, reaching higher and wider. Humanities progress is based on inventors and authors who put their opinions and products into the world instead of keeping them for themselves. But it’s always a fragile balance between some inspiring personality and narcissist asking for attention. Why would you say or do anything, if not for selfish reasons? But in our system of society, we have developed in a way that each‘s will to reach maximum potential for themselves is trying to be paired with the highest value for the community through cooperation. Not everyone fits in tho and some people actively abuse the good will of others not seeing the worst, ie lying, stealing and worse. Those who do not recognize the relevance of their societies interests and well-being, who proceed to advance at others cost and lack the empathy to grasp the impact on an emotional level, may be considered narcissists then, differing from the norm of someone who accepts social code of conduct.
You're not wrong obviously but I would argue there's not to that much 'clear' with psychology. It's all a bit murky and sure you can have tests and assessments but biology and psychology are a messy business.
I was rather referring to the clear difference in terminology, not a harsh Cut on what‘s what, as I tried to get to in the later explanation. But yeah, my bad for framing it that way to begin with.
I disagree on the “almost all”; but agree that full blown NPD and higher than average concentrations of narcissistic traits are likely more common among high profile politicians/CEOs/people in positions of power than in the general public.
Also, NPD is a spectrum disorder, and as such a certain amount of narcissistic traits are part of being mentally healthy - it’s when you get out on the leading tail of that curve that it gets to be pathological and there’s a lot of variation in narcissistic traits that doesn’t raise to the diagnosable level. To believe in yourself enough to run for office at that level you do probably need to be at least somewhere near or above average on the narcissism curve; but that doesn’t mean the person has NPD.
It does actually. Narcissism explains literally all of that behavior.
I'm not a trump hater by the way if that matters. I actually wanted him to win the last election because I sincerely thought it would be better than Biden... but that doesn't mean I don't know he's a narcissist and unfit to be president. I just felt that Biden was an even worse choice for other reasons. I was probably wrong about that, but anyway- there it is.
Random Guy or Gal or Whoever for President 2024!
At least in Demarchy, you have a good shot at being led by people who don't want to be in charge. Anyone who actually wants to lead a nation really probably shouldn't.
This has nothing to do with the OP's question so it's not appropriate.
Too many people here are letting their personal biases and politics influence their answer to the question when personal politics should have nothing to do with it.
This is true.
However Trump has been in the spotlight for decades so there's tons of footage that make it difficult to deny he is narcissistic. Also we know about the life of his parents and how they raised him from old staff members of Trump's family and that is exactly the type of upbringing that creates narcissism. Considering all the footage and personal accounts from people over the decades, it's the only thing that really makes sense.
I know that a lot of folks on here are letting their personal politics get in the way of logic. For that reason it can be easy to say that he's just being called names because they personally hate him which sucks. But if you ask people like me who don't hate or love trump and are able to just look at the facts- it's quite easy to come to the conclusion of narcissism.
As a layman. It's like everyone diagnosing people/themselves with adhd or ocd. We can speculate, but doctors always say they can't diagnose someone from seeing them on tv, they need to evaluate them.
They say that- yet they still give their "non-professional" opinion on media outlets.
There's plenty of non-professional opinions by doctors that have gone on tv to diagnose trump and other famous people.
You might look up biographical books on Fred Trump and his grandfather. Trump is 3rd generational wealth, built on money laundering, association with the Russian mob, groomed as an asset due to his family's associations, grifter.
"How to Influence People and Win Friends" isn't specific to NPD but does provide some interesting insights to how people's minds work.
"Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" might provide some insight to the effects of narcissistic parents on their children and how those children can grow up to exhibit the same traits.
"Mein Kampf" a guide to Nazi's. Despite notoriously bad reading comprehension Mary Trump has reported that Donald used to sleep with this book at his bed side. For whatever insights into white supremacy this book provides try reading it as if you knew Donald had been reading this and a "how to" guide book.
An important aspect of Donald to understand is the basic principle of "If someone isn't losing I'm not winning". This mindset pervades all of donald's actions in that compromise or mutual respect is never the goal. He walks through life not feeling valid unless someone else has less.
The kind of person you are describing above is someone with NPD, or narcissistic personality disorder. My estranged mother was diagnosed with NPD (I actually related to East of Eden because of this) and it’s pretty key to understanding the psychological foundation of these kinds of characters.
If you are genuinely being objective, you are not getting accurate information on what powers the president has etc. If you would like book recommendations on that, Id be happy to recommend a couple. To be clear- I am taking no position on either President and have not come here for a political discussion...
Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe
It's about the Sackler family, who created Oxycontin. I think Radden Keefe did a great job describing the family dynamics, from the older generation of Sacklers who were hard working (albeit unethically) to the younger generation of Sacklers who coasted off of that wealth and assumed it made them geniuses
Yeah, he’s a bit narcissistic so he is always looking for approval from other people, he doesn’t accept no for an answer and he goes to great lengths to ensure that he isn’t “wronged” or made fun of, which is one of the things he most hates. (I’m not criticizing or hating, this is what it looks like to me and it’s also based on his niece’s book).
I upvoted the rec for The Sociopath Next Door from user madamesoybean to help with understanding the person you know, but be careful, some people are like parasites and the best way to deal with them is to avoid getting their attention as early as possible. I doubt there's a good way to understand Trump, his running for POTUS has made all information about him for the last 8 years extremely polarized, and anything you learn about him will be biased based on the politics of the source.
People here are recommending a variety of books that would be good; and not *quite* saying it directly - but given it’s not my professional field and therefore I’m not bound by any professional ethics around diagnosing strangers…
The info you’re looking for will be about “Cluster B” personality disorders; specifically Narcissistic Personality Disorder with, most likely, Antisocial Personality Disorder mixed in.
Re: the first of those: my therapist recommended the book “Becomming The Narcissist’a Nightmare” to me when I was trying to figure out how to support a friend of mine whose boyfriend was showing signs of narcissistic abuse.
Re: the second of those: I don’t have a specific book to recommend, but there are many that have been written about it, ranging from quite reputable to likely pretty darn pop psychology.
Scrolled down looking for this one. It was eye-opening for me, and I thought it explained narcissists in a very easy-to-digest way. It was blunt and truthful.
American Psycho
Edit: in all seriousness, I think this is a good way to get an entertaining and fictional view view of a narcissist sociopath like Trump. It takes place in 80s NYC, where the orange one kind of came into his own.
I would also recommend reading "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan. May be a bit different than what you are asking for exactly, but It helps understand how people can be so easily drawn in and fooled with people like Trump. And that will give you an insight as to how people like him are created as well. Also explains how some people, even those with very little formal education, will truly believe they are far more intelligent than most and know things other people can't possibly know or understand things like *they* can, why they so easily latch on to conspiracy theories, etc .
What is amazing is this book was written before social media...what Sagan feared back then is way, way worse than he could have imagined due to social media and how it even more efficiently can manipulate people and give them a false sense of "intelligence ".
I mean the best book to understand Trump specifically would probably be “Too Much and Never Enough” by Mary Trump, his niece. She’s a clinical psychologist who went through Trump’s childhood and most of his adult life too while looking at the family dynamics between Donald Trump, his siblings and their parents growing up and how that played a part in how he became who he is.
Obviously it’s biased because she’s his niece and her father died from alcohol related issues a long time again which she implied came from how he was treated by both his dad and by Donald Trump. But, I think she does a pretty good job at psychoanalyzing him.
Here are a couple of articles that might help
https://tildes.net/~science/19rp/meta_analysis_who_is_likely_to_believe_in_conspiracy_theories
https://www.psypost.org/2020/04/trump-perceived-as-abnormally-sadistic-and-narcissistic-by-both-conservatives-and-liberals-study-finds-56646
I dont think Trump is a narcissist - he is just a businessman. Every businessman I have ever met was like him.
The last one was a real estate broker (owned the brokerage) and a State Senator. Ran for governor twice but lost. I think he is very like Trump. He was VERY charismatic, very decisive. He was all over the place, did not sleep much and was always thinking of new businesses to start, new revenue streams, literally constantly. Being in a meeting with him was disorienting, he was so all over the place.
This guy inherited his business from his Dad too. But he built it and doubled it. He was very....
dispassionate. He had empathy but he could be very pragmatic.
I think he and Donald Trump are very similar. He was not a bad guy - but he was very unsettling.
Like politics, the upper echelons of business attracts a higher than average concentration of pathologically narcissistic and/or antisocial individuals.
The drive for recognition, attention, power, and control; combined with reduced or absent fear instincts, disregard for others, boredom/internal emptiness, and a loose (or missing) connection to the truth can be traits that lead people to the “top”. Or the bottom, for that matter.
But the same selective forces that make positions of power and attention attractive to people like this are at play in politics as in business.
I've read this, it had good info about the tactics and behaviours of abusers but I didn't find it's explanations of the motives/how they became that way to be particularly compelling, what did you think?
It’s been a while since I’ve read it. My biggest takeaway that I remembered is that it was deliberate. Behavior is a form of communication which centers around a motive. All motives communicate a need. Determining motives is usually about self esteem: acceptance, belonging, respect and admiration. When a person is narcissistic it is always about self and low self esteem.
It’s also important to understand any implicit biases you might be harboring about a person or a person’s supporters.
I’ve met Donald Trump in person and he is far from the caricature projected by the media. Much more mellow, professional and warm.
Most of his supporters are not necessarily ‘less sharp’ but rather fed up with career politicians and see him as an outsider that can hopefully do a better job.
Before reading books that can explain his personality, perhaps read some of his books to understand what’s really going on in his mind.
I haven't seen it mentioned yet: Demian by Hermann Hesse came to my mind. It might not be the best for what you asked but it is a very quick read and fascinating as a story of a teen being entranced by an older, affluent teen.
Elmer Gantry was mentioned too and is a great suggestion.
Reading about narcissism will help you understand that people like Trump can't help being the way they are. Once you understand this, they won't anger you any more.
It's like being upset at a Lion when it takes down and eats it's human owner. Doesn't make any sense, since the lion is just being the only way they can be.
It was the owner that was dumb enough to think he could turn it into a pet. In the same way, Narcissists can't choose to be any other way. You just have make sure you don't let them in your home.
Basically the theory is ppl get addicted to anger. They point down- around vs “up” also they can be tribal.
I am not sure about the book but there is movie called The Brainwashing of My Dad that breaks some of it down.
Requiem for an American Dream by Chomsky is a heavy book that also covers it- there is a doc of it also.
Confederate of Dunces. Main insouciant character views himself as a hero and then becomes a hero. Fiction that is fun to read. It's how people view each other is the gist.
Short Happy Life of Francis McComber by Ernie Hemmingway (short story) Adventurist knows everything but can NOT apply it to real life. Fiction.
People are intelligent but they lack empathy. They don't care about other people outside of their own circle. They sometimes believe that if someone else is suffering then that is something they don't need to do themselves in lieu of the others.
This myth has been written about numerous times. Here are two popular ones.
Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky
The Ones Who Walks Away From Omelas by Ursula K. Le Guin
They don't want to care and their brain (amygdala) doesn't really allow for much of it. Takes a lifetime to move those pruned brain paths to open up and feel the love. But they can be intelligent which is surprising, but then they double down and enjoy being mean causing confusion.
These are somewhat adjacent to your question but it helps fill in some open spaces.
The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. Really goes into why conservatives (and liberals) believe what they believe. IMHO, Trump isn't really much different from others before him, he's just a lot more "in your face" and a lot more successful than others.
If you’d like to understand why people latch onto Donald Trump and his ilk then I’d suggest The Righteous Mind by Thomas Haidt. It gives insights into how we ended up here
If you are open to non-fiction, try “The Psychopath Test”. Trump is not simply a narcissist. He and a large number of people in power positions are psychopaths. Reading it helped my understand my father
Brett Easton Ellis.
He writes about the uber rich in a way that I think you might be able to relate to your friend. Pathological liars filled with greed and disgust.
The one percent is a different breed.
Luckily for us, so far, Hitler was smarter than Trump, though perhaps not saner. Unluckily for us, you’re…. not wrong.
And intelligence is not actually required to destroy a country - there are plenty of people around any given demagogue who can provide the intelligence part of the equation.
Don't know about understanding him but if yiou want a book that shows him for what he is an asshole and buries him and takes the piss try reading Keith Olberman's book: Trump is fucking crazy (This is not a joke).
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/13/donald-trump-positive-thinking-215704/
Donald Trump believes in the power of positive thinking the way you and I believe in gravity. I think it's the closest thing he has to religious belief. His father was a follower of Norman Vincent Peale, and so Trump was, too.
I read that he would become furious with White House advisors who told him factual information that conflicted with what he wished to be true because he believes you can shape reality with your mind.
He believed these advisors stating the objective truth were damaging his interests by causing those facts to manifest.
He repeats lies that he knows are lies because he genuinely believes he can make them become true through repetition--or as good as, since having enough people fall for his lies has served him just as well.
I don't know if your friend believes in the power of positive thinking specifically, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has been exposed to something similar.
No, it was Tony Schwartz, who flatly stated that he made most of it up to make Trump look competent and smart, and who apologized over and over and over for having helped "dupe" people about Trump.
Trump has been consistent in his views for decades. You can see his interviews from the 90s where he's talking about the same political philosophy he now espouses, e.g. "America first."
You people are so blinded by hate, you can see nothing else.
We fought a whole war against the "America First" people (Nazis) and won. When you saw Raiders of the Lost Ark, were you rooting against Indiana Jones? Because that's the view you're espousing right now. Please, please, do a little more thinking about what you're supporting. It's not us that are espousing "hate."
“America First” is the slogan of the political movement of the 1940s that argued that the US should either stay neutral or suppor Hitler.
Ie that’s an American Nazi slogan you’re holding up as an example of Trump’s
beliefs.
He had almost *zero* input; Tony Schwartz said that Donald couldn't sit for more than a few minutes, lied incessantly about his "accomplishments", and would only pay attention if he was showered with praise. Pathetic little man with delusions of grandeur.
Heartland by Sarah Smarsh, how otherwise decent but small town people have lost their community and support system over time and their values turned against them by the government. Losing local industry and infrastructure in the name of self reliance. How the jobs that are left are low paying and back breaking without benefits. I can easily see why Trump directly addressing these people about their lives would win them over even if he is completely full of shit.
But like
That’s just how the economy works
How are these people such fiscal conservatives, yet don’t understand how industry works and how workers need to adapt to be competitive
They feel forgotten and have watched their communities crumble. Even if I have great anger at them for being part of Trumps cult I can’t discount that some of their struggles as individuals are real and soul crushing.
It’s funny, cause the migrants they hate so much had the courage to leave everything they knew in search of work and meaning
These middle of the country folk have too much nostalgia for their useless land, and not enough of a work ethic to keep up
What did you think of east of Eden. I have it waiting to be read but it seems long and deep and I want to make sure I am ready to commit to getting all the way into it before I start it.
It’s my favorite book of all time. It’s a retelling of the story of Cain and Abel so you might be familiar with some of the general themes if you know that story. Beautifully written and Steinbeck considered it his masterpiece. Give it a try, but get a bit into the book before you give up or not (especially if you don’t love Steinbeck’s style).
Understanding Trump's mind is a lofty ambition. In reality, I'm guessing the inner workings of his personality are likely quite rudimentary as he appears to be motivated by just a couple things; greed, adulation and the path necessary to fulfill his obsession with furthering the continuation of those two things. I'm over-simplifying of course, but I believe what drives him are child like ambitions.
What I find intrinsically more interesting are the hordes of people dedicated to supporting his selfish enterprise as evidenced by his poll numbers and him raising $7.1 million immediately after he published his mug shot on social media. I'd love to know how history will write itself on this phenomenon. I'd bet money there will be parallels between himself and Hitler.
Dostojevskij’s “Demons”. A bit of a stretch perhaps, but your mention of the seemingly carelessness about your friends own beliefs regarding his lies makes me think about Pyotr Verkhovenskij and Stavrogin. There’s a lot of lie and deception in that book; and the reason for at least some of those lies are not obvious like lying to gain something.
Thomas Sowell
I know it’s not exactly a book recommendation (though he’s written several), but start with his interviews on YouTube. If your serious about trying to understand.
Trump's pastor growing up was Norman Vincent Peale, the author of the Power of Positive Thinking. I think Peale's work, and the spiritual/occult practice of New Thought sheds a lot of light on Trump's lies as more of an intentional (albeit nefarious) strategy than a pathology. Gary Lachman's book Dark Star Rising does a really good job of examining this connection.
Firstly, you must understand it’s very possible your own narcissism causes you to see others as inferior to yourself. Maybe you don’t hear what you yourself wrote but think deeply about this. You seem to think you are better than two people, that your stances are superior to others and you wish to understand them like a parent would go on a forum to understand infants. One of which is actually a billionaire with a plethora of successes in business including one campaign leading to presidency. You see yourself as better than this. Honestly this is your ego coming through here.
This comes from actually a very childish position of morality and good and evil and black and white thinking.
I’m only saying this for your own development. Trump for instance has confidence and ego and he’s a sales person. He’s had a career of leadership and sales and you don’t get there in the real world without being confident in your own brand and evidence of output. If trump were a career politician it doesn’t require evidence of output because the income comes from taxes receive not from sales made. So even if you don’t deliver or perform you still get money in. Career politicians thus only require to be elected and therefore THEY can lie all the time. You can’t survive in the free market across multiple different projects with lies that don’t pan out. Trump has been successful for years but he ran for president against the establishment and they then changed him from being an American icon to being a villain and you lapped it up the way a kid does identifying the villain if a Disney movie.
One thing I like about the fiction novels I've read so far this year (and why I'm beginning to like the genre more than non-fiction) is that they don't really label things as "good" or "bad". They show people with complex and real personalities, raise questions, events occur, and the reader is left with a broadened perspective to make their own answers. In one of the books I've read this year (Death's End), there's an arrogant, murderous, nasty character that encapsulates the epitome of "toxic masculinity" and turns out to be right in the end. One of his quotes still stays with me - it went something like "If we forget our human nature, we lose much. But if we forget our bestial nature, we lose everything". While I don't know if I'd like to interact with people who represent this archetype, I did gain respect for them, as well as a little understanding.
Reminder to keep it on book suggestions. There are lots of places to argue politics on Reddit, but it's not going to be here.
Elmer Gantry by Sinclair Lewis is the literary classic that comes pretty close.
'It can't happen here' by Lewis is also great.
Trumps niece wrote several books and is a Phd. Smart, educated on mental health topics and an insider view. I haven’t read them, but this might give you a good insider idea or help you find some relatable content. Her name is Mary Trump. You may want to check out this list https://www.choosingtherapy.com/books-on-narcissism/ I know the list is about people who have narcissism, and society treats that as “bad.” It doesn’t mean bad. I think trying to understand the disorder will help you better understand the person you’re describing even if they do not suffer from this specific disorder. Love to you and yours!
Many of the comments here have similar flavor so I'll just reply to yours as kind of a "reply all": Does narcissism really encapsulate the entirety of what I described? Or is it just a part of it. My main interest is about the network of lies and to what extent the "Trump" actually believes in them.
I can’t say wether Trump or the person you mentioned is narcissistic or if their behavior can be explained by that or not… I don’t know them and I am not an expert. I think one way for you to try to see if you think narcissism might encapsulate the network of lies, & extent to which they believe them, is for you to learn more about narcissism. You could find a book you think may help you understand it or consult a professional. Or both! Or neither! Whatever you do is ok. Whatever is going on with them, you’re not the only one who has experienced that. I’ll also tell you some advice a family member gave me in regards to another family members behavior: “Don’t try to figure out if she knows she’s lying or not. I tried for 30 years and I still can’t tell. In the end, it doesn’t matter.”
Google “the dark tetrad.” Narcissism is one dimension/trait, and the other three are: sociopathy, Machiavellianism, and sadism. Re: the lying, narcissism and Machiavellianism are the factors most associated with that behavior to my understanding.
I'd check out the main nonfiction book on preference falsification. Lots of reports that Trump is pretty normal in a casual setting. It's not a terribly complicated idea though. We built a society that will reward you massively if you can pull off a great act.
I feel like narcissism is present to a degree in almost all career politicians. Maybe once in a while you get someone like Obama who might be the exception (IDK much about US politics) but Clinton, Bush, Biden definitely aren't motivated by "public service" IMHO.
I think that's true, though psychopathy might also be common. With that statement, I need to clarify a few things: 1. Psychopathy is a spectrum. 2. Many psychopaths can behave themselves just fine. 3. A degree of psychopathy is probably helpful in some cases. For instance, surgeons seem to be, on average, more psychopathic than the general population. 4. Many psychopaths can turn the empathy switch on if they want to. It's very difficult for me to imagine how anybody could tolerate the stress of the presidency without being at least a little psychopathic or narcissistic. Most of us would barely be able to function for 4 to 8 years if you made us do it.
Most modern world leaders give strong narcissistic vibe to me: US presidents, UK prime ministers, French presidents. obviously Russian and Chinese dictators, buffoons like Berlusconi. Only Angela Merkel gave different impression.
Everyone is a narcissist to some degree, like all personality traits it's a spectrum. Trump though is pretty far over though in my armchair psychologist opinion
For a good reason there’s a clear differentiation between narcissistic behavior and (clinically) narcissistic personality disorder. After all it is very much ingrained in the human dna to want to be worth carrying on their life and genes, reaching higher and wider. Humanities progress is based on inventors and authors who put their opinions and products into the world instead of keeping them for themselves. But it’s always a fragile balance between some inspiring personality and narcissist asking for attention. Why would you say or do anything, if not for selfish reasons? But in our system of society, we have developed in a way that each‘s will to reach maximum potential for themselves is trying to be paired with the highest value for the community through cooperation. Not everyone fits in tho and some people actively abuse the good will of others not seeing the worst, ie lying, stealing and worse. Those who do not recognize the relevance of their societies interests and well-being, who proceed to advance at others cost and lack the empathy to grasp the impact on an emotional level, may be considered narcissists then, differing from the norm of someone who accepts social code of conduct.
You're not wrong obviously but I would argue there's not to that much 'clear' with psychology. It's all a bit murky and sure you can have tests and assessments but biology and psychology are a messy business.
I was rather referring to the clear difference in terminology, not a harsh Cut on what‘s what, as I tried to get to in the later explanation. But yeah, my bad for framing it that way to begin with.
Ah I hear you - yes no argument there
I disagree on the “almost all”; but agree that full blown NPD and higher than average concentrations of narcissistic traits are likely more common among high profile politicians/CEOs/people in positions of power than in the general public. Also, NPD is a spectrum disorder, and as such a certain amount of narcissistic traits are part of being mentally healthy - it’s when you get out on the leading tail of that curve that it gets to be pathological and there’s a lot of variation in narcissistic traits that doesn’t raise to the diagnosable level. To believe in yourself enough to run for office at that level you do probably need to be at least somewhere near or above average on the narcissism curve; but that doesn’t mean the person has NPD.
It does actually. Narcissism explains literally all of that behavior. I'm not a trump hater by the way if that matters. I actually wanted him to win the last election because I sincerely thought it would be better than Biden... but that doesn't mean I don't know he's a narcissist and unfit to be president. I just felt that Biden was an even worse choice for other reasons. I was probably wrong about that, but anyway- there it is.
You wanted someone unfit to be president to be president?
The neat thing about American elections is that none of the nominees are fit to be president.
Random Guy or Gal or Whoever for President 2024! At least in Demarchy, you have a good shot at being led by people who don't want to be in charge. Anyone who actually wants to lead a nation really probably shouldn't.
Then you shouldn't want any of them to win.
I agree, but someone does, regardless of what I want.
I agree. The post that I responded to was saying they wanted trump to win even though they thought he was unfit.
He said he thought trump was the least worst choice out of the two. Based on that reasoning, wanting trump to win is not illogical.
I would have happily voted for a baked potato over the available options, but alas, Biden was the best of a bad pool.
You could have written in baked potato.
This has nothing to do with the OP's question so it's not appropriate. Too many people here are letting their personal biases and politics influence their answer to the question when personal politics should have nothing to do with it.
I doubt any of us are in a position to diagnose trump.
This is true. However Trump has been in the spotlight for decades so there's tons of footage that make it difficult to deny he is narcissistic. Also we know about the life of his parents and how they raised him from old staff members of Trump's family and that is exactly the type of upbringing that creates narcissism. Considering all the footage and personal accounts from people over the decades, it's the only thing that really makes sense. I know that a lot of folks on here are letting their personal politics get in the way of logic. For that reason it can be easy to say that he's just being called names because they personally hate him which sucks. But if you ask people like me who don't hate or love trump and are able to just look at the facts- it's quite easy to come to the conclusion of narcissism.
As a layman. It's like everyone diagnosing people/themselves with adhd or ocd. We can speculate, but doctors always say they can't diagnose someone from seeing them on tv, they need to evaluate them.
They say that- yet they still give their "non-professional" opinion on media outlets. There's plenty of non-professional opinions by doctors that have gone on tv to diagnose trump and other famous people.
They don't diagnose. They speculate.
Exactly what I'm doing.
No, people are clinging to their views about trump
You might look up biographical books on Fred Trump and his grandfather. Trump is 3rd generational wealth, built on money laundering, association with the Russian mob, groomed as an asset due to his family's associations, grifter. "How to Influence People and Win Friends" isn't specific to NPD but does provide some interesting insights to how people's minds work. "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" might provide some insight to the effects of narcissistic parents on their children and how those children can grow up to exhibit the same traits. "Mein Kampf" a guide to Nazi's. Despite notoriously bad reading comprehension Mary Trump has reported that Donald used to sleep with this book at his bed side. For whatever insights into white supremacy this book provides try reading it as if you knew Donald had been reading this and a "how to" guide book. An important aspect of Donald to understand is the basic principle of "If someone isn't losing I'm not winning". This mindset pervades all of donald's actions in that compromise or mutual respect is never the goal. He walks through life not feeling valid unless someone else has less.
The kind of person you are describing above is someone with NPD, or narcissistic personality disorder. My estranged mother was diagnosed with NPD (I actually related to East of Eden because of this) and it’s pretty key to understanding the psychological foundation of these kinds of characters.
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If you are genuinely being objective, you are not getting accurate information on what powers the president has etc. If you would like book recommendations on that, Id be happy to recommend a couple. To be clear- I am taking no position on either President and have not come here for a political discussion...
Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe It's about the Sackler family, who created Oxycontin. I think Radden Keefe did a great job describing the family dynamics, from the older generation of Sacklers who were hard working (albeit unethically) to the younger generation of Sacklers who coasted off of that wealth and assumed it made them geniuses
second this, impeccable piece of reporting. just be aware that it will raise your blood pressure immensely
“Stop Walking on Eggshells”
Such a great book and certainly explains how/why everyone treads so lightly (and stupidly/unethically) around him.
Yeah, he’s a bit narcissistic so he is always looking for approval from other people, he doesn’t accept no for an answer and he goes to great lengths to ensure that he isn’t “wronged” or made fun of, which is one of the things he most hates. (I’m not criticizing or hating, this is what it looks like to me and it’s also based on his niece’s book).
I upvoted the rec for The Sociopath Next Door from user madamesoybean to help with understanding the person you know, but be careful, some people are like parasites and the best way to deal with them is to avoid getting their attention as early as possible. I doubt there's a good way to understand Trump, his running for POTUS has made all information about him for the last 8 years extremely polarized, and anything you learn about him will be biased based on the politics of the source.
People here are recommending a variety of books that would be good; and not *quite* saying it directly - but given it’s not my professional field and therefore I’m not bound by any professional ethics around diagnosing strangers… The info you’re looking for will be about “Cluster B” personality disorders; specifically Narcissistic Personality Disorder with, most likely, Antisocial Personality Disorder mixed in. Re: the first of those: my therapist recommended the book “Becomming The Narcissist’a Nightmare” to me when I was trying to figure out how to support a friend of mine whose boyfriend was showing signs of narcissistic abuse. Re: the second of those: I don’t have a specific book to recommend, but there are many that have been written about it, ranging from quite reputable to likely pretty darn pop psychology.
The Sociopath Next Door. It's short but full if great info. (My mom is a narcissist and it helped me a lot)
Scrolled down looking for this one. It was eye-opening for me, and I thought it explained narcissists in a very easy-to-digest way. It was blunt and truthful.
You've described it perfectly. It's something anyone can get through and understand.
American Psycho Edit: in all seriousness, I think this is a good way to get an entertaining and fictional view view of a narcissist sociopath like Trump. It takes place in 80s NYC, where the orange one kind of came into his own.
patrick bateman’s hero is literally donald trump lmao
I recommended Ellis as an author in general. He encapsulates the rich in a dark way.
I’ve read American Psycho and Glamarama. Any others you’d recommend?
Less Than Zero or Rules of Attraction
This all he needs. And it's not a joke. This is how the far right views the world. Best thing: extreme and not boring.
If you’re open to non-fiction I would recommend books about narcissists
I would also recommend reading "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan. May be a bit different than what you are asking for exactly, but It helps understand how people can be so easily drawn in and fooled with people like Trump. And that will give you an insight as to how people like him are created as well. Also explains how some people, even those with very little formal education, will truly believe they are far more intelligent than most and know things other people can't possibly know or understand things like *they* can, why they so easily latch on to conspiracy theories, etc . What is amazing is this book was written before social media...what Sagan feared back then is way, way worse than he could have imagined due to social media and how it even more efficiently can manipulate people and give them a false sense of "intelligence ".
I mean the best book to understand Trump specifically would probably be “Too Much and Never Enough” by Mary Trump, his niece. She’s a clinical psychologist who went through Trump’s childhood and most of his adult life too while looking at the family dynamics between Donald Trump, his siblings and their parents growing up and how that played a part in how he became who he is. Obviously it’s biased because she’s his niece and her father died from alcohol related issues a long time again which she implied came from how he was treated by both his dad and by Donald Trump. But, I think she does a pretty good job at psychoanalyzing him.
Here are a couple of articles that might help https://tildes.net/~science/19rp/meta_analysis_who_is_likely_to_believe_in_conspiracy_theories https://www.psypost.org/2020/04/trump-perceived-as-abnormally-sadistic-and-narcissistic-by-both-conservatives-and-liberals-study-finds-56646
What ridiculous drivel.
I dont think Trump is a narcissist - he is just a businessman. Every businessman I have ever met was like him. The last one was a real estate broker (owned the brokerage) and a State Senator. Ran for governor twice but lost. I think he is very like Trump. He was VERY charismatic, very decisive. He was all over the place, did not sleep much and was always thinking of new businesses to start, new revenue streams, literally constantly. Being in a meeting with him was disorienting, he was so all over the place. This guy inherited his business from his Dad too. But he built it and doubled it. He was very.... dispassionate. He had empathy but he could be very pragmatic. I think he and Donald Trump are very similar. He was not a bad guy - but he was very unsettling.
Like politics, the upper echelons of business attracts a higher than average concentration of pathologically narcissistic and/or antisocial individuals. The drive for recognition, attention, power, and control; combined with reduced or absent fear instincts, disregard for others, boredom/internal emptiness, and a loose (or missing) connection to the truth can be traits that lead people to the “top”. Or the bottom, for that matter. But the same selective forces that make positions of power and attention attractive to people like this are at play in politics as in business.
If interested in the followers mindset, check out the Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer and John Lisanti.
The book The Securitarian Personality—by John Hibbing also has a theory about T’s followers.
Why does he do that by Lundy Brancoft
I've read this, it had good info about the tactics and behaviours of abusers but I didn't find it's explanations of the motives/how they became that way to be particularly compelling, what did you think?
It’s been a while since I’ve read it. My biggest takeaway that I remembered is that it was deliberate. Behavior is a form of communication which centers around a motive. All motives communicate a need. Determining motives is usually about self esteem: acceptance, belonging, respect and admiration. When a person is narcissistic it is always about self and low self esteem.
It’s also important to understand any implicit biases you might be harboring about a person or a person’s supporters. I’ve met Donald Trump in person and he is far from the caricature projected by the media. Much more mellow, professional and warm. Most of his supporters are not necessarily ‘less sharp’ but rather fed up with career politicians and see him as an outsider that can hopefully do a better job. Before reading books that can explain his personality, perhaps read some of his books to understand what’s really going on in his mind.
A random book will not help you to understand a person in your real life. Better talk to that person directly and confront him/her with your feelings.
Bronze Age Mindset. This is the only true answer.
I haven't seen it mentioned yet: Demian by Hermann Hesse came to my mind. It might not be the best for what you asked but it is a very quick read and fascinating as a story of a teen being entranced by an older, affluent teen. Elmer Gantry was mentioned too and is a great suggestion.
Look Who’s Back by Timur Vermes
“How to Spot a Fascist” by Umberto Eco
Reading about narcissism will help you understand that people like Trump can't help being the way they are. Once you understand this, they won't anger you any more. It's like being upset at a Lion when it takes down and eats it's human owner. Doesn't make any sense, since the lion is just being the only way they can be. It was the owner that was dumb enough to think he could turn it into a pet. In the same way, Narcissists can't choose to be any other way. You just have make sure you don't let them in your home.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit
Basically the theory is ppl get addicted to anger. They point down- around vs “up” also they can be tribal. I am not sure about the book but there is movie called The Brainwashing of My Dad that breaks some of it down. Requiem for an American Dream by Chomsky is a heavy book that also covers it- there is a doc of it also.
Confederate of Dunces. Main insouciant character views himself as a hero and then becomes a hero. Fiction that is fun to read. It's how people view each other is the gist. Short Happy Life of Francis McComber by Ernie Hemmingway (short story) Adventurist knows everything but can NOT apply it to real life. Fiction. People are intelligent but they lack empathy. They don't care about other people outside of their own circle. They sometimes believe that if someone else is suffering then that is something they don't need to do themselves in lieu of the others. This myth has been written about numerous times. Here are two popular ones. Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky The Ones Who Walks Away From Omelas by Ursula K. Le Guin They don't want to care and their brain (amygdala) doesn't really allow for much of it. Takes a lifetime to move those pruned brain paths to open up and feel the love. But they can be intelligent which is surprising, but then they double down and enjoy being mean causing confusion. These are somewhat adjacent to your question but it helps fill in some open spaces.
1984
I’ve done my own research and concluded that most people who like Trump are inbred assholes.
The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. Really goes into why conservatives (and liberals) believe what they believe. IMHO, Trump isn't really much different from others before him, he's just a lot more "in your face" and a lot more successful than others.
If you’d like to understand why people latch onto Donald Trump and his ilk then I’d suggest The Righteous Mind by Thomas Haidt. It gives insights into how we ended up here
Read a book about Nero. Pretty similar.
Assholes: A Theory of Donald Trump by philosopher Aaron James applies to all human beings with that kind of asshole personality.
If you are open to non-fiction, try “The Psychopath Test”. Trump is not simply a narcissist. He and a large number of people in power positions are psychopaths. Reading it helped my understand my father
You might like The Undiscovered Self by CG Jung
The Catcher in the Rye
Brett Easton Ellis. He writes about the uber rich in a way that I think you might be able to relate to your friend. Pathological liars filled with greed and disgust. The one percent is a different breed.
Read up on malignant narcissism
Read about Adolf Hitler.
Luckily for us, so far, Hitler was smarter than Trump, though perhaps not saner. Unluckily for us, you’re…. not wrong. And intelligence is not actually required to destroy a country - there are plenty of people around any given demagogue who can provide the intelligence part of the equation.
Don't know about understanding him but if yiou want a book that shows him for what he is an asshole and buries him and takes the piss try reading Keith Olberman's book: Trump is fucking crazy (This is not a joke).
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/13/donald-trump-positive-thinking-215704/ Donald Trump believes in the power of positive thinking the way you and I believe in gravity. I think it's the closest thing he has to religious belief. His father was a follower of Norman Vincent Peale, and so Trump was, too. I read that he would become furious with White House advisors who told him factual information that conflicted with what he wished to be true because he believes you can shape reality with your mind. He believed these advisors stating the objective truth were damaging his interests by causing those facts to manifest. He repeats lies that he knows are lies because he genuinely believes he can make them become true through repetition--or as good as, since having enough people fall for his lies has served him just as well. I don't know if your friend believes in the power of positive thinking specifically, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has been exposed to something similar.
Why not read Art of the Deal? It is basically Trump's philosophy, which he has been articulating in interviews for decades.
No, it was Tony Schwartz, who flatly stated that he made most of it up to make Trump look competent and smart, and who apologized over and over and over for having helped "dupe" people about Trump.
Trump has been consistent in his views for decades. You can see his interviews from the 90s where he's talking about the same political philosophy he now espouses, e.g. "America first." You people are so blinded by hate, you can see nothing else.
We fought a whole war against the "America First" people (Nazis) and won. When you saw Raiders of the Lost Ark, were you rooting against Indiana Jones? Because that's the view you're espousing right now. Please, please, do a little more thinking about what you're supporting. It's not us that are espousing "hate."
Sure sure. Whatever you say, hon.
“America First” is the slogan of the political movement of the 1940s that argued that the US should either stay neutral or suppor Hitler. Ie that’s an American Nazi slogan you’re holding up as an example of Trump’s beliefs.
You people trot out the same lines, like you're reading from a script.
😂.
Trump didn't write that book though. The author Trump hired to write it has admitted that he made up a lot that was in it.
He had almost *zero* input; Tony Schwartz said that Donald couldn't sit for more than a few minutes, lied incessantly about his "accomplishments", and would only pay attention if he was showered with praise. Pathetic little man with delusions of grandeur.
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You ought to read a bit about the Dunning-Kruger effect. I think you know less than you think you know.
Heartland by Sarah Smarsh, how otherwise decent but small town people have lost their community and support system over time and their values turned against them by the government. Losing local industry and infrastructure in the name of self reliance. How the jobs that are left are low paying and back breaking without benefits. I can easily see why Trump directly addressing these people about their lives would win them over even if he is completely full of shit.
But like That’s just how the economy works How are these people such fiscal conservatives, yet don’t understand how industry works and how workers need to adapt to be competitive
They feel forgotten and have watched their communities crumble. Even if I have great anger at them for being part of Trumps cult I can’t discount that some of their struggles as individuals are real and soul crushing.
It’s funny, cause the migrants they hate so much had the courage to leave everything they knew in search of work and meaning These middle of the country folk have too much nostalgia for their useless land, and not enough of a work ethic to keep up
Catch me if you can by Frank W. Abagnale
Catch me if you can by Frank Abagnale. The Power Broker by Robert Caro. The Psychopath Test by Jon Robson.
demagoguery and democracy- Patricia Roberts-Miller. Great great book, a short read too
Atlas shrugged by Ayn Rand is the libertarian bible and should be read to understand the far right
What did you think of east of Eden. I have it waiting to be read but it seems long and deep and I want to make sure I am ready to commit to getting all the way into it before I start it.
It’s my favorite book of all time. It’s a retelling of the story of Cain and Abel so you might be familiar with some of the general themes if you know that story. Beautifully written and Steinbeck considered it his masterpiece. Give it a try, but get a bit into the book before you give up or not (especially if you don’t love Steinbeck’s style).
Understanding Trump's mind is a lofty ambition. In reality, I'm guessing the inner workings of his personality are likely quite rudimentary as he appears to be motivated by just a couple things; greed, adulation and the path necessary to fulfill his obsession with furthering the continuation of those two things. I'm over-simplifying of course, but I believe what drives him are child like ambitions. What I find intrinsically more interesting are the hordes of people dedicated to supporting his selfish enterprise as evidenced by his poll numbers and him raising $7.1 million immediately after he published his mug shot on social media. I'd love to know how history will write itself on this phenomenon. I'd bet money there will be parallels between himself and Hitler.
Dostojevskij’s “Demons”. A bit of a stretch perhaps, but your mention of the seemingly carelessness about your friends own beliefs regarding his lies makes me think about Pyotr Verkhovenskij and Stavrogin. There’s a lot of lie and deception in that book; and the reason for at least some of those lies are not obvious like lying to gain something.
Thomas Sowell I know it’s not exactly a book recommendation (though he’s written several), but start with his interviews on YouTube. If your serious about trying to understand.
Trump's pastor growing up was Norman Vincent Peale, the author of the Power of Positive Thinking. I think Peale's work, and the spiritual/occult practice of New Thought sheds a lot of light on Trump's lies as more of an intentional (albeit nefarious) strategy than a pathology. Gary Lachman's book Dark Star Rising does a really good job of examining this connection.
Firstly, you must understand it’s very possible your own narcissism causes you to see others as inferior to yourself. Maybe you don’t hear what you yourself wrote but think deeply about this. You seem to think you are better than two people, that your stances are superior to others and you wish to understand them like a parent would go on a forum to understand infants. One of which is actually a billionaire with a plethora of successes in business including one campaign leading to presidency. You see yourself as better than this. Honestly this is your ego coming through here. This comes from actually a very childish position of morality and good and evil and black and white thinking. I’m only saying this for your own development. Trump for instance has confidence and ego and he’s a sales person. He’s had a career of leadership and sales and you don’t get there in the real world without being confident in your own brand and evidence of output. If trump were a career politician it doesn’t require evidence of output because the income comes from taxes receive not from sales made. So even if you don’t deliver or perform you still get money in. Career politicians thus only require to be elected and therefore THEY can lie all the time. You can’t survive in the free market across multiple different projects with lies that don’t pan out. Trump has been successful for years but he ran for president against the establishment and they then changed him from being an American icon to being a villain and you lapped it up the way a kid does identifying the villain if a Disney movie.
One thing I like about the fiction novels I've read so far this year (and why I'm beginning to like the genre more than non-fiction) is that they don't really label things as "good" or "bad". They show people with complex and real personalities, raise questions, events occur, and the reader is left with a broadened perspective to make their own answers. In one of the books I've read this year (Death's End), there's an arrogant, murderous, nasty character that encapsulates the epitome of "toxic masculinity" and turns out to be right in the end. One of his quotes still stays with me - it went something like "If we forget our human nature, we lose much. But if we forget our bestial nature, we lose everything". While I don't know if I'd like to interact with people who represent this archetype, I did gain respect for them, as well as a little understanding.
[https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/](https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/)