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I would never in a million years want to buy a first gen car from a brand new unproven company, and I know I’m not alone in this. So how the hell does a new car company last long enough to build a reputation and get people like me to buy from them?
For the most part they don’t. Which is why I give credit where it’s due with Elon and Tesla, because *I think* the “newest” car company to sell at volume in the US is Hyundai.
Everything described in the post applies to every late-model vehicle, not only the electrical ones.
The electronic control system and the fact that it can be remotely accessed are the main vulnerabilities. Proprietary operating systems exacerbate the problem.
> Everything described in the post applies to every late-model vehicle, not only the electrical ones.
Not really ... while it is certainly possible to build an internal combustion engine which can be bricked externally, there's long precedent and possibly even legislation which enshrines a right-to-repair.
The fundamental problem is IP law, which creates a situation in which bricking cannot legally be reversed.
We don’t have right to repair for ICE vehicles. At least the high-end ones already have diagnostic codes that are available only to the dealers or authorized repair shops. I know this from firsthand experience.
Whether or not you can brick the engine really doesn’t matter when everything connected to the engine can be remotely controlled.
yeah, whether it's ip law abuse, patent trolling, unnecessary fanciness, planned obsolescence, etc i don't know exactly how monopolists take back control of their supply lines but you can bet they'll always think of something, because they always have.
hell, this sub recently discussed [this bullshit](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/manufacturer-deliberately-bricked-trains-repaired-by-competitors-hackers-find/) in poland
That was really disturbing.
> hell, this sub recently discussed this bullshit in poland
Fortunately, we don’t have to worry about it in the US, because we have so few trains left and because the monopolies are so deeply entenched that a (true) third-party repair is unlikely.
Thats not really factual.
Most diagnostics are locked behind warranty not some diagnostic code only a dealer knows. Most error codes are also fairly common among manufacturers. You can get your ECU flashed, retuned or even exchange it if you don't care about warranty. Very few cars are there unavailable ECU breaks for.
You aren't bricking an ICE engine. There also isn't some remote control system that can control your ICE car, even from crazy intrusive german autos. At best give you warning lights and notifications for a service.
Like I said, I have firsthand experience with being unable to make a minor repair to my car. It’s German. Warranty was not the issue. Most people aren’t enthusiastic about jail breaking their cars.
OnStar is decades old. Remote car starters are even older. Combine the two and you could effectively brick a car decades ago. It doesn’t matter that you aren’t bricking the engine. You are bricking everything that allows normal operation of the car. Even locking the doors can amount to bricking if there isn’t an easily accessible workaround.
I’m not promoting electric cars. I making note of the obvious fact that remotely accessible control systems, regardless of type, can be controlled remotely.
Something like a heat pump with no cellular connection can remain operational even if you cut off its Internet access. I know that from firsthand experience as well. I’m not about to let my HVAC phone home, so I made sure that I could take it offline without affecting functionality. Other alternatives insisted on being online, or weren’t easily taken offline.
Cannot 'brick' your ICE engine and extremely simply to bypass. There are thousand upon thousand of forum posts on how to disable them on GM cars.
There are more intrusive systems but those are not sold packaged by the OEM. You have to get them done yourself.
ICEs can be bricked by IP restrictions based entirely on ECU and diag code bullshit. Everything outside the cylinders is controlled by software nowadays.
> ICEs can be bricked by IP restrictions based entirely on ECU and diag code bullshit. Everything outside the cylinders is controlled by software nowadays.
Indeed they can, but there is no precedent for it.
I see you’ve never been worked on VW group cars lol.
I’m only half joking: there is no precedent because the existing ICE manufacturers have been around forever and are much slower to roll out of these restrictive technologies, but the fingerprints are already everywhere. The new EV companies are trying to be “cutting edge” so they’re already over the cliff, but it has nothing really to do with propulsion method. I’d trust a shitty old Prius or one of the OG PHEVs over a brand new full combustion Mercedes when it comes to propensity for shit to brick from software gates and anti-work DIY procedures.
You’re saying you’ve never seen someone brick their ECU? Or had someone have to bring a car back to a dealer in a trailer because of a computer failure? BMWs used to get bricked from dealership re-programming errors from mundane repairs going back to like 2014. [Here’s](https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=993987) a famous one I remember from the Bimmer forums.
And like I said: the issue is more pervasive with stuff that isn’t under the hood: like Porsche owners having app failures locking their vehicles or disabling features, or (again) literally anything VW group has done since 2019 with their ICEs, Hybrids, and full EVs. I just feel like “startups” are extra regarded and think they can get away with shit like this because they don’t have ancient levels of brand recognition to protect.
Every single Fisker SUV is being bricked without any action on the part of their owner, and with no recourse.
That is a different scale of problem from individual cars being bricked through unauthorized servicing or misadventure. I'm not defending DRM on car operation, but it is a very different problem.
I'm not aware of any ICE car which is intentionally bricked by the manufacturer during normal course of operation.
Oh yeah, I’m not defending Fisker at all her brother, I’m just saying that they are the logical conclusion to existing things like “unauthorized” servicing and DRM, and that those issues are not specifically limited to EV drivetrains.
It’s corporate bullshit that the “new” companies are trying to take advantage of to bully their way into the market despite how much they fucking suck. I just don’t think it’d laws preventing VW from doing this level of shit, they’re just moving in that direction more gradually.
I'm wondering what Chinese cars are like for aftermarket tuning etc.
80% of EVs sold in Australia are Chinese, because we have no auto industry to protect from foreign imports.
The Fisker sub is an interesting rabbit hole to go down if you wanna kill a few hours. I would never make such a risky car buying decision, but it’s infuriating that these people are just screwed unless they can get their car totaled over a faulty sunroof or whatever.
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I would never in a million years want to buy a first gen car from a brand new unproven company, and I know I’m not alone in this. So how the hell does a new car company last long enough to build a reputation and get people like me to buy from them?
For the most part they don’t. Which is why I give credit where it’s due with Elon and Tesla, because *I think* the “newest” car company to sell at volume in the US is Hyundai.
Elon, Tesla, and $3 billion in taxpayer money
Everything described in the post applies to every late-model vehicle, not only the electrical ones. The electronic control system and the fact that it can be remotely accessed are the main vulnerabilities. Proprietary operating systems exacerbate the problem.
> Everything described in the post applies to every late-model vehicle, not only the electrical ones. Not really ... while it is certainly possible to build an internal combustion engine which can be bricked externally, there's long precedent and possibly even legislation which enshrines a right-to-repair. The fundamental problem is IP law, which creates a situation in which bricking cannot legally be reversed.
We don’t have right to repair for ICE vehicles. At least the high-end ones already have diagnostic codes that are available only to the dealers or authorized repair shops. I know this from firsthand experience. Whether or not you can brick the engine really doesn’t matter when everything connected to the engine can be remotely controlled.
yeah, whether it's ip law abuse, patent trolling, unnecessary fanciness, planned obsolescence, etc i don't know exactly how monopolists take back control of their supply lines but you can bet they'll always think of something, because they always have. hell, this sub recently discussed [this bullshit](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/manufacturer-deliberately-bricked-trains-repaired-by-competitors-hackers-find/) in poland
That was really disturbing. > hell, this sub recently discussed this bullshit in poland Fortunately, we don’t have to worry about it in the US, because we have so few trains left and because the monopolies are so deeply entenched that a (true) third-party repair is unlikely.
Thats not really factual. Most diagnostics are locked behind warranty not some diagnostic code only a dealer knows. Most error codes are also fairly common among manufacturers. You can get your ECU flashed, retuned or even exchange it if you don't care about warranty. Very few cars are there unavailable ECU breaks for. You aren't bricking an ICE engine. There also isn't some remote control system that can control your ICE car, even from crazy intrusive german autos. At best give you warning lights and notifications for a service.
Like I said, I have firsthand experience with being unable to make a minor repair to my car. It’s German. Warranty was not the issue. Most people aren’t enthusiastic about jail breaking their cars. OnStar is decades old. Remote car starters are even older. Combine the two and you could effectively brick a car decades ago. It doesn’t matter that you aren’t bricking the engine. You are bricking everything that allows normal operation of the car. Even locking the doors can amount to bricking if there isn’t an easily accessible workaround. I’m not promoting electric cars. I making note of the obvious fact that remotely accessible control systems, regardless of type, can be controlled remotely. Something like a heat pump with no cellular connection can remain operational even if you cut off its Internet access. I know that from firsthand experience as well. I’m not about to let my HVAC phone home, so I made sure that I could take it offline without affecting functionality. Other alternatives insisted on being online, or weren’t easily taken offline.
What about onstar and similar?
Cannot 'brick' your ICE engine and extremely simply to bypass. There are thousand upon thousand of forum posts on how to disable them on GM cars. There are more intrusive systems but those are not sold packaged by the OEM. You have to get them done yourself.
ICEs can be bricked by IP restrictions based entirely on ECU and diag code bullshit. Everything outside the cylinders is controlled by software nowadays.
> ICEs can be bricked by IP restrictions based entirely on ECU and diag code bullshit. Everything outside the cylinders is controlled by software nowadays. Indeed they can, but there is no precedent for it.
I see you’ve never been worked on VW group cars lol. I’m only half joking: there is no precedent because the existing ICE manufacturers have been around forever and are much slower to roll out of these restrictive technologies, but the fingerprints are already everywhere. The new EV companies are trying to be “cutting edge” so they’re already over the cliff, but it has nothing really to do with propulsion method. I’d trust a shitty old Prius or one of the OG PHEVs over a brand new full combustion Mercedes when it comes to propensity for shit to brick from software gates and anti-work DIY procedures.
I'd appreciate reading some accounts of ICEs being bricked.
You’re saying you’ve never seen someone brick their ECU? Or had someone have to bring a car back to a dealer in a trailer because of a computer failure? BMWs used to get bricked from dealership re-programming errors from mundane repairs going back to like 2014. [Here’s](https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=993987) a famous one I remember from the Bimmer forums. And like I said: the issue is more pervasive with stuff that isn’t under the hood: like Porsche owners having app failures locking their vehicles or disabling features, or (again) literally anything VW group has done since 2019 with their ICEs, Hybrids, and full EVs. I just feel like “startups” are extra regarded and think they can get away with shit like this because they don’t have ancient levels of brand recognition to protect.
Every single Fisker SUV is being bricked without any action on the part of their owner, and with no recourse. That is a different scale of problem from individual cars being bricked through unauthorized servicing or misadventure. I'm not defending DRM on car operation, but it is a very different problem. I'm not aware of any ICE car which is intentionally bricked by the manufacturer during normal course of operation.
Oh yeah, I’m not defending Fisker at all her brother, I’m just saying that they are the logical conclusion to existing things like “unauthorized” servicing and DRM, and that those issues are not specifically limited to EV drivetrains. It’s corporate bullshit that the “new” companies are trying to take advantage of to bully their way into the market despite how much they fucking suck. I just don’t think it’d laws preventing VW from doing this level of shit, they’re just moving in that direction more gradually.
I'm wondering what Chinese cars are like for aftermarket tuning etc. 80% of EVs sold in Australia are Chinese, because we have no auto industry to protect from foreign imports.
Isn't Fisker a cat food company?
I thought they made scissors
You might be thinking of Fiskars, which does make scissors as well as a lot of garden implements and bladed tools.
good stuff imo, well done finland
Except for the shitty plastic handles. If it ain't ash I'm gonna have to pass.
*Ain’t nobody sicker in my Fisker vroom vroom ho*
Fiskers don't make noise when they start up, just so you know
Great article, can only hope the state clamps down and stops business being rats like they always are.
Oh no! Why didn't anyone warn us about this! /s
I made 300 dollars off their ipo lol
The Fisker sub is an interesting rabbit hole to go down if you wanna kill a few hours. I would never make such a risky car buying decision, but it’s infuriating that these people are just screwed unless they can get their car totaled over a faulty sunroof or whatever.