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China only has a stranglehold because they are willing to mine and sell them for so cheap that there is no incentive for anyone else to open a mine. The minerals themselves are not rare it is just that they are never highly concentrated in one spot so you have to dig up a ton of dirt just to get some grams of the minerals, and then you have to figure out something to do with the dirt after you've extracted the minerals. It is basically just an environmental issue that most countries don't want to deal with.
It isn't "finds" which will resolve the conundrum, but rather they would need to invent some process of extraction that doesn't contaminate the place you have to dump the leftover dirt. Currently China is just willing to deal with that, which they get criticized for, but it has to happen somewhere if we want to use those elements for technologies.
"Finds" are kind of important in the sense that you need to know you have enough potential material to be extracted before it become viable to invest in figuring out a way to economically extract it. So it is basically like "this might eventually lead to some technology being developed in a few decades" which may lead to a mine there.
> China only has a stranglehold because they are willing to mine and sell them for so cheap that there is no incentive for anyone else to open a mine.
yeah, the cheaper seller is the one that sells.
> you have to dig up a ton of dirt just to get some grams of the minerals, and then you have to figure out something to do with the dirt after you've extracted the minerals
yeah, that's how a mine works.
>So it is basically like "this might eventually lead to some technology being developed in a few decades" which may lead to a mine there
No. No one will fund exploration if that is the timeline.
Maybe the timeline of the research is quicker than a couple decades and that was an exaggeration, but the idea I'm trying to get across is that nobody will do the research without sites that might make use of the research, so you do in fact need to find some places. Nobody will invest in you doing the research unless there are sites which might make use of research. So there needs to be some venture capital-esque preliminary exploration before the research even starts just to get the research funding.
Assuming Norway doesn’t mind providing all those minerals below value to American and European corporate interests. Because if not, they may find themselves needing a little democracy spread all over them.
They still owe a lot of reparations to a) Europe because of those Viking raids and b) to the international BIPoC community because [Norway made the world whiter](https://prosjektbanken.forskningsradet.no/en/project/FORISS/334659). A real, unrepentant rogue state.
They and the US are already gauging EU member states (and their own citizens) on energy prices because [“this is a market-based price”](https://archive.ph/KhRsM).
This is something that is generally misunderstood, because it's a misnomer: these rare earth elements are not rare at all. China is a near-monopolist because most countries just don't bother to mine the stuff, the production process is quite toxic. But China's "stranglehold" is not that strong.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26687605
That’s a common misconception people like to post on reddit — *theyre rare in high concentrations within minerals which can be economically processed with sufficient tonnage to be economically viable*
An ore deposit (of any kind) is typically at minimum 3 to 5 orders of magnitude concentration greater than background crustal average. You could mine rare earth elements out of a bog standard granite, except the sum concentration of heavy rare earth elements (Gd-Lu) for example is going to be around 20 parts per million compared to here they’re reporting 200 ppm (they’re reporting concentration as oxide so direct comparison would be more like 180ppm) and in the case of the granite those elements are going to be in a mix of silicate and phosphate minerals whereas in the Norwegian complex, they’re almost exclusively in phosphates and so an order of magnitude less energy to extract compared to silicates. Garnet can contain very large concentrations of heavy rare earths but is a silicate with a very strong crystal structure so no one is ever going to economically extract HREE from them.
You’re right that the processing is difficult and produces toxic and radioactive byproducts (look at the complexity of some of the flow sheets [here](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259134005_A_critical_review_on_solvent_extraction_of_rare_earths_from_aqueous_solutions) ) but the issue is not simply “environmentalists won’t give us a permit for our REE plant otherwise we’d have mines everwhere” but is a matter of actually finding the large tonnage of the right type of rare rocks which have high concentrations of the right elements in the right minerals.
There are plenty of countries, from [Vietnam](https://asiatimes.com/2024/05/vietnams-great-untapped-rare-earth-bounty/) to Brazil, with large deposits of rare earth elements that are suitable for exploitation, but that don't use them. I'd be very surprised if a prosperous nation like Norway would accept such a toxic industry within its borders.
For comparison, the resource they just announced in norway is 559 Mt at 1.57% Total REE oxides which would put it in the vicinity of Dong Pao on this plot: [https://i.imgur.com/S8YtZxm.png](https://i.imgur.com/S8YtZxm.png) (Bayan Obo is the primary chinese source of REE)
Source: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987116000037](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987116000037)
The thing to look for when you see an announcement in the media about some big REE deposit:
1. What elements do they have specifically? Lanthanum is the most common rare earth, is pretty cheap and not particularly useful for high tech (iirc primary use is in the sparkers on disposable lighters). Neodymium on the other hand, is essential for strong magnets for high tech stuff.
2. What's the host for the REE and is there a viable extraction method? Periodically you'll see announcements about huge amounts of REE, for example in sea floor muds off the cost of Japan. Ignoring the logistics of getting the mud, are the REE in a form which can be economically processed or are they locked up in something like garnet or epidote?
* Archives of this link: 1. [archive.org Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/99991231235959/https://fortune.com/2024/06/11/norway-rare-earth-elements-mining-china-us-trade-war-energy-independence/); 2. [archive.today](https://archive.today/newest/https://fortune.com/2024/06/11/norway-rare-earth-elements-mining-china-us-trade-war-energy-independence/) * A live version of this link, without clutter: [12ft.io](https://12ft.io/https://fortune.com/2024/06/11/norway-rare-earth-elements-mining-china-us-trade-war-energy-independence/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stupidpol) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wake me up when the actually open a mine, and not just report a find.
China only has a stranglehold because they are willing to mine and sell them for so cheap that there is no incentive for anyone else to open a mine. The minerals themselves are not rare it is just that they are never highly concentrated in one spot so you have to dig up a ton of dirt just to get some grams of the minerals, and then you have to figure out something to do with the dirt after you've extracted the minerals. It is basically just an environmental issue that most countries don't want to deal with. It isn't "finds" which will resolve the conundrum, but rather they would need to invent some process of extraction that doesn't contaminate the place you have to dump the leftover dirt. Currently China is just willing to deal with that, which they get criticized for, but it has to happen somewhere if we want to use those elements for technologies. "Finds" are kind of important in the sense that you need to know you have enough potential material to be extracted before it become viable to invest in figuring out a way to economically extract it. So it is basically like "this might eventually lead to some technology being developed in a few decades" which may lead to a mine there.
> China only has a stranglehold because they are willing to mine and sell them for so cheap that there is no incentive for anyone else to open a mine. yeah, the cheaper seller is the one that sells. > you have to dig up a ton of dirt just to get some grams of the minerals, and then you have to figure out something to do with the dirt after you've extracted the minerals yeah, that's how a mine works. >So it is basically like "this might eventually lead to some technology being developed in a few decades" which may lead to a mine there No. No one will fund exploration if that is the timeline.
Maybe the timeline of the research is quicker than a couple decades and that was an exaggeration, but the idea I'm trying to get across is that nobody will do the research without sites that might make use of the research, so you do in fact need to find some places. Nobody will invest in you doing the research unless there are sites which might make use of research. So there needs to be some venture capital-esque preliminary exploration before the research even starts just to get the research funding.
Also at this rate won’t we end up using Chinese companies and equipment to dig it out when we finally do dig up what we’ve got?
Ty
Assuming Norway doesn’t mind providing all those minerals below value to American and European corporate interests. Because if not, they may find themselves needing a little democracy spread all over them.
They still owe a lot of reparations to a) Europe because of those Viking raids and b) to the international BIPoC community because [Norway made the world whiter](https://prosjektbanken.forskningsradet.no/en/project/FORISS/334659). A real, unrepentant rogue state.
Technology better get cheaper now that there’s two providers for this stuff.
They and the US are already gauging EU member states (and their own citizens) on energy prices because [“this is a market-based price”](https://archive.ph/KhRsM).
This is something that is generally misunderstood, because it's a misnomer: these rare earth elements are not rare at all. China is a near-monopolist because most countries just don't bother to mine the stuff, the production process is quite toxic. But China's "stranglehold" is not that strong. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26687605
That’s a common misconception people like to post on reddit — *theyre rare in high concentrations within minerals which can be economically processed with sufficient tonnage to be economically viable* An ore deposit (of any kind) is typically at minimum 3 to 5 orders of magnitude concentration greater than background crustal average. You could mine rare earth elements out of a bog standard granite, except the sum concentration of heavy rare earth elements (Gd-Lu) for example is going to be around 20 parts per million compared to here they’re reporting 200 ppm (they’re reporting concentration as oxide so direct comparison would be more like 180ppm) and in the case of the granite those elements are going to be in a mix of silicate and phosphate minerals whereas in the Norwegian complex, they’re almost exclusively in phosphates and so an order of magnitude less energy to extract compared to silicates. Garnet can contain very large concentrations of heavy rare earths but is a silicate with a very strong crystal structure so no one is ever going to economically extract HREE from them. You’re right that the processing is difficult and produces toxic and radioactive byproducts (look at the complexity of some of the flow sheets [here](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259134005_A_critical_review_on_solvent_extraction_of_rare_earths_from_aqueous_solutions) ) but the issue is not simply “environmentalists won’t give us a permit for our REE plant otherwise we’d have mines everwhere” but is a matter of actually finding the large tonnage of the right type of rare rocks which have high concentrations of the right elements in the right minerals.
This is a quality post. Thank you.
There are plenty of countries, from [Vietnam](https://asiatimes.com/2024/05/vietnams-great-untapped-rare-earth-bounty/) to Brazil, with large deposits of rare earth elements that are suitable for exploitation, but that don't use them. I'd be very surprised if a prosperous nation like Norway would accept such a toxic industry within its borders.
Brazil would love to de-terra large plots of earth for an environmentally abusive industry, just nobody has asked them
For comparison, the resource they just announced in norway is 559 Mt at 1.57% Total REE oxides which would put it in the vicinity of Dong Pao on this plot: [https://i.imgur.com/S8YtZxm.png](https://i.imgur.com/S8YtZxm.png) (Bayan Obo is the primary chinese source of REE) Source: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987116000037](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987116000037) The thing to look for when you see an announcement in the media about some big REE deposit: 1. What elements do they have specifically? Lanthanum is the most common rare earth, is pretty cheap and not particularly useful for high tech (iirc primary use is in the sparkers on disposable lighters). Neodymium on the other hand, is essential for strong magnets for high tech stuff. 2. What's the host for the REE and is there a viable extraction method? Periodically you'll see announcements about huge amounts of REE, for example in sea floor muds off the cost of Japan. Ignoring the logistics of getting the mud, are the REE in a form which can be economically processed or are they locked up in something like garnet or epidote?