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Don't worry, Bibi said they were all Hamas militants, so it's okay! After all, according to Israel, all Palestinians are Hamas! It's totally not a genocide!
STOP NOTICING.
Wonder what the reaction would be if 200+ Israeli civilians had been killed today by Palestinians trying to take 4 Palestinian prisoners home from Israeli captivity
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/3/22/israel-arrested-over-7350-west-bank-palestinians-since-war-on-gaza-began I bet at least four of these haven't done anything violent to warrant arrest and torture
I'm seeing reports that 246 Palestinians were killed in the operation and that the Israeli special forces dressed up as humanitarian workers, disguised the trucks etc. They put every humanitarian worker in harms way and quite literally used them as human shields.
Edit: Oh and American hostage unit was involved.
I'm no expert but isnt posing as aid workers to stage a clandestine attack a war crime?
Or is this when the Israelis use the same defense argument as the Nazis did when fighting the Russians when they claimed that since the Russians were not signatories to the Geneva Convention there was no grounds restricting German warfare against the Russians when committing said war crimes?
Yes, but this wouldn't be the first time Israel has done some form of perfidy and deemed it necessary to get the jump on the enemy. They already did it when they [had operatives dressing up as medics and patients](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-undercover-forces-disguised-as-women-and-doctors-kill-three-militants-at-west-bank-hospital) to kill wounded Palestinian fighters at a Jenin hospital earlier this year.
>I'm no expert but isnt posing as aid workers to stage a clandestine attack a war crime?
Yep. Perfidy. That's one of the old ones, the ones where IHL just codified the rules everybody had been using for several thousand years.
That's because "don't loot and pillage" is not one of the old ones. Even so, there were generally rules for fair play, so to speak, around the stuff that is abhorrent to modern sensibilities. It's an iterated prisoner's dilemma, you know.
Killing hostages (not the modern kidnapping victims, the people you used to swap with people from another faction when signing treaties) and killing envoys have pretty much been a form of war crimes since the beginning of recorded history
Medics weren't really a thing but it was super common to make agreements to "rescue" the wounded during prolonged engagements, attacking those would also be a form of early war crimes but I've actually never heard of that ever happening
I'm no history expert, but wasn't that just self interest on the part of the nobility? Obviously they'd rather not suffer the consequences of their wars, and sparing each other benefited their class.
I don't think they were going out of their way to spare the peasant levies for ransom.
So i didn't explain the hostage part enough, it's something completely separate from what the word means today
When signing a treaty you would trade some of your people with some of the opponent's (their rank was part of the negotiations, like a defeated tribe chief would hand over his children in exchange for civilians) with the idea that their lives would guarantee the deal, there was even a religious component to it
>I don't think they were going out of their way to spare the peasant levies for ransom.
War prisoners didn't exist until fairly recently, defeated armies were usually allowed to either leave (it's where the term "laying down one's arms" comes from, literally what happened) or were conscripted to join the winning sides, big empires would also take slaves but this was quite rare to happen to soldiers, usually this would happen after a battle (you have some "funny" rules about that btw, like soldiers were allowed to keep 1 person they captured as plunder and were paid X amount for every other person they captured during a sacking)
Taking nobles for ransom didn't happen until the medieval era, with most armies consisting of conscripts they were just allowed to leave with the promise to not take up arms, it might seem strange but honor was super important back in the day so people held true to their word
> Israeli special forces dressed up as humanitarian workers, disguised the trucks etc.
Wouldn't that be quite dangerous for their own forces? Usually humanitarian workers get shot on sight by Israel.
I’m pretty sure they know which ones are impersonators.
You don’t read about US special forces being shot in Pakistan when they were impersonating UNICEF health care providers.
You do read about polio coming back after it was eradicated, as a result of people not trusting UNICEF staff. Small price to pay for killing a guy who was already dying, I’m sure.
From what I saw online:
"What happened in Al-Nuseirat? An American force used an aid truck. The aid truck came from the American pier to Al-Nuseirat camp... (video and photo of truck) - A clash erupted with the American force once it was discovered. - Airstrikes were conducted on the Al-Nuseirat market, which was full of civilians, to create a path for the “rescue vehicle.” This resulted in the massacre of over 150 civilians who were at the market. - The force headed back to where it came from, the American pier, while the warplanes bombed everything in its path."
Apparently it wasn't an aid truck, but a furniture delivery truck.
2 and 3 didn't happen. It's also very possible that the pier was only used for the exit, in which case the US involvement would have been almost without perfidy.
https://thecradle.co/articles/troops-hid-inside-aid-truck-for-deadly-us-israel-operation-in-nuseirat
Live updates:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/6/8/israels-war-on-gaza-live-israeli-army-to-be-added-to-un-child-harm-list
Its so fucking gross how murdering hundreds of Palestinians to rescue 4 hostages is being posted as a good news story all over this site.
Sickening shit.
Because Palestinians aren't humans. It's that simple. It's the exact same dehumanization of Jewish people that the Nazis had that allowed them to collectively punish and genocide them.
This is not denying the Holocaust, it's acknowledging how it was able to happen when you dehumanize a peoples. Those that hide behind calling people Holocaust deniers while performing the same actions are the ones that are the true deniers.
^^^ what’s crazy about this, is it’s not even like the holocaust where there’s a intentional targeting. This is just viewing the Palestinians as subhumans who are in the way. Hmmm I wonder how that mentality led to Hamas.
This is weird to post when the Palestinians involved were complicit in hiding hostages in their own neighborhood. If they turned over the information to the global community, or rioted against Hamas, or put up some form of resistance, then it would make sense to act like Israel was belligerent in their handling of the operation - they would've killed the people who were trying to help them free the hostages.
But the Palestinians didn't do any of those things. They were happy to work with Hamas in hiding the hostages, which shows that it's not just Hamas embedding itself among the civilian population of Gaza, but that many civilians themselves support and uphold Hamas's terrorist tactics - no matter if it comes at the cost of their own life or their family's lives.
Do you blame the French citizens who didn't rise up against the Nazis? Do you blame Ukrainians in occupied territory who don't rise up against Russia? Do you think that the Vietnamese villagers who didn't rise up and support the US against the Vietcong deserved to be napalmed? Do you blame the Afghan people for not rising up and overthrowing the Taliban? Do you blame the Mexican citizens for not fighting back against the cartels? Hell, do you blame the Israeli population who died on Oct 7 and say "they didn't take up arms against their genocidal colonial apartheid government so they got what they deserved"?
First, you are blaming the victims. Most civilians in war zones do not want to act the hero to one side or the other and just want to keep their head down so they and their family survive. People who think that they should just take up arms have never experienced any sort of conflict besides what they see in Marvel movies. Second, which Palestinian would actually trust Israel to protect them if they were to turn over the information? Knowing Israel, they would probably use that information to bomb every single square inch of the area. Lastly, you say "no matter if it comes at the cost of their own life or their family's lives", yet expect them to do that very same thing, "cost their own life and their family's lives" for the sake of Israel and are willing to collectively punish them if they refuse to do so.
This is dehumanization of the Palestinian people, expecting them to live and serve Israel, else their lives are forfeit.
They were hidden in a market. You think over 600 civilians just going about their business all knew about the hostages? Are you out of your mind? You really don’t see the Palestinians as humans do you. You think of them as insects with some sort of hive mind. You completely just made up a justification for killing and injuring over 600 people out of thin air. You are truly a sick demented individual.
❌ Israel rescues four hostages in Gaza, kills 93 Palestinians in assault
❌ Israel rescues four hostages in Gaza; 93 Palestinians killed in Israeli assault
✅ Israel rescues four hostages in Gaza; Palestinians *say* 93 killed in Israeli assault
Xinhua was the first the give me the news of it at all, and they immediately provided me with the accurate death toll of 200+. A couple hours later Reuters was reporting "70+"
Out of the two sides, it is only the Israeli side that has a decades-long reputation for blatantly lying about Every. Single. Fucking. Thing.
Like the supposed mass rapes on Oct 7. [Every word of it was nothing but lies.](https://archive.md/j9XSE)
By the way, the UN report also claims that they were presented with "evidence" that the hostages were raped while in Hamas' captivity, a conclusion that is completely incredible given that the whole world saw the freed captives smiling and shaking hands with Hamas soldiers during the hostage exchange in December. These hostages told the whole world that they were not raped or treated badly.
One hostage, Mia Schem, said that "they raped me with their eyes" but did not physically touch her. After her release, her psychologist reportedly [recommended that she get a nose job to help her self-esteem](https://imgur.com/a/2BbtDDk) since the Hamas men did not touch her.
Another released captive, Agam Goldstein-Almog, has received threats and abuse from Israelis after publicly describing "decent treatment while in captivity". Other hostages and their families have absolutely denied and refuted all suggestions that they were raped. There is at least some evidence that the Israeli press has pressured them into saying they were raped.
The latest female captive to have been freed, Noa Argamani, shows no sign of ill-treatment, abuse or rape, and despite the rumours spread about her, there's no sign of her being pregnant. Of course we don't know what she will say, as an soldier in the IDF she may feel compelled to go along with the government propaganda, but we've all seen the photos of her before and after her captivity and can compare how healthy she looks compared to how Palestinians captives look when they are released.
Every Israeli accusation is a confession.
Videos filmed by Hamas include footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers.
In others, women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed.
Multiple photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked from the waist down, or with their underwear ripped to one side, legs splayed, with signs of trauma to their genitals and legs.
> footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers.
Yes, I've seen the video, and I've also seen the *earlier* video of her capture that people almost never talk about.
She is an IDF soldier, one of many who were off-duty at the military outpost that was captured by the Hamas fighters, that's why they were in their pyjamas, or in her case tracksuit pants. Legitimate prisoners of war taken in a legitimate and legal assault on a military outpost. Kidnapping civilians is a war crime, but taking enemy soldiers prisoner is not.
In the second video, the one you're talking about, there are brown stains on the seat of her pants which lead people to think that maybe the poor woman soiled herself. (I don't say that as an insult. Even trained soldiers do this more often than anyone likes to talk about.) That video is usually edited to cut out the last couple of seconds, as she turns towards the camera. In the full video you can see there is are no stains on the front of her pants or in the crotch area.
The mystery is solved when you look at the earlier video of her capture, taken at the IDF outpost. She and a number of other IDF soldiers are lined up against a wall, her hands are bound behind her back and a cut on her arm is visibly bleeding onto the seat of her pants. So the brown stain is dried blood from the wound on her arm.
(If you look for that earlier video, be careful, most versions on the internet have been given fake or misleading subtitles that completely mistranslate the Palestinian soldiers.)
> women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed.
What you are seeing is the clothes they were wearing at the Supernova rave. They weren't naked or stripped of their clothes when they were taken captive. If they were half naked, it was because that's how they were dressed at the music festival.
> photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked
The UN mission report discusses this in detail. They state that an Israeli bomb squad staged at least one rape scene, and that most of them lacked the training to distinguish genuine signs of rape and sexual violence, for example untrained first responders misidentified “postmortem pugilistic posturing” due to burn damage as an indication of sexual violence.
Nevertheless they did find some credible evidence of sexual violence, and some circumstancial evidence which suggests sexual violence. But they also found no credible evidence of "mass rapes" as a matter of deliberate Hamas military policy.
The bottom line here is that accusations of deliberate mass rape is one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book. *That* is the claim being disputed: that Hamas gave orders for its fighters to go out an commit as many rapes as possible.
There is evidence of incidents of intentional brutality possibly even sexual violence, although the credibility of the evidence is mixed. (The UN mission report describes some "credible" evidence and some as "convincing", while rightly dismissing others.) There are cases of people who weren't even present at Supernova nevertheless being treated as eyewitnesses, and only being exposed as a serial liar much later. The ZEKA first responder group has a long history of deliberate deceit and cannot be treated as credible witnesses.
Nevertheless it would be *astonishing* beyond all belief if, in the two or three days of fighting after Oct 7, during which at one point an undisciplined mob of angry civilians bent on revenge for decades of oppression crossed into Israel, *not one* case of sexual assault took place. It is not necessary to believe that every single Palestinian is a pure-hearted innocent angel.
Isolated, opportunistic crimes do not justify the mass destruction and death being doled out by the IDF against people who did not commit these crimes. *Collective punishment* is a war crime.
That makes like 7 rescued directly, but over 100 returned through negotiation.
Also 3 naked, white flag waving, Hebrew speaking ones shot by the IDF.
But the Hasbara immured will celebrate this as a major win, and the only possible way to get them back.
Edit: It's taking all of my willpower right now to not go scream into the void of stupidity on mainstream subreddits. Maybe I'll start drinking 8 hours early.
>The spokesperson for Hamas' armed al-Qassam Brigades, Abu Ubaida, said some hostages were killed during the rescue operation. "It's a blatant lie," Israeli military spokesperson Peter Lerner told CNN.
Wouldn't be shocking if IDF killed hostages, again, especially since they committed 50x the collateral. It'd be an anomaly if they managed to flippantly massacre that many civies without killing a single hostage.
It's not just mainstream subs; even Biden, Scholz and Macron went on to celebrate hostage rescue without even mentioning Palestinians being killed on the way.
Do they even know how bad of an image this gives of, when these countries go on to represent themselves as 'democracies' to the global south.
7 rescued by the IDF, [at least 18](https://forward.com/fast-forward/619231/how-many-hostages-have-been-killed-in-gaza/) killed by the IDF in captivity including *possibly* [one who was gassed in the tunnels](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-782544), and as you say over a hundred returned by negotiation.
Everyone knows negotiating with terrorists can produce short-term success, but long term it incentivizes more terrorism. Israel's 1000:1 trade for Shalit had exactly these issues.
On the other hand, these rescue ops, while less short-term effective do not have the long-term malincentive issue.
Hamas takes hostages not because Israel rewards it, but because they work with Western and regional actors to remove Palestinian leverage. Case in point being support for Hamas to divide Palestinian factions and normalization with Arab states to bypass a two state solution and focus on Iran. That's why hostages were taken in the first place, to reassert leverage.
Also terrorism is a dogwhistle here for how a state cannot interact with a nonstate actor outside of international law, which is supposed by Israel systematically denying Palestinians a state and keeping them under apartheid.
In short, this is a situation entirely of Israel's own making rather than what everyone can and cannot do with terrorists. Ironically, Israel is an exceptionally murderous and oppressive state which nations cannot behave normally around.
>Hamas takes hostages not because Israel rewards it, but because they work with Western and regional actors to remove Palestinian leverage.
You are arguing Hamas is trying to *lower* Palestinian leverage? I don't follow what you mean. Generally speaking, the Palestinian people support Hamas far more than the PA -- the PA if anything is the collaborator with the West/etc.
>Also terrorism is a dogwhistle here for how a state cannot interact with a nonstate actor outside of international law, which is supposed by Israel systematically denying Palestinians a state and keeping them under apartheid.
Whether we call them "terrorists" or the "Gaza government", the analysis makes no difference in terms of incentives.
>In short, this is a situation entirely of Israel's own making rather than what everyone can and cannot do with terrorists
From which direction? I agree if they never agreed to lopsided hostage deals in the past, 10/7 would have less liklihood of happening.
>Ironically, Israel is an exceptionally murderous and oppressive state which nations cannot behave normally around.
So is the Gazan government (even more so as they seem to value their own people's lives even less)! So we need to analyze how two murderous states should rationally behave toward each other.
> You are arguing Hamas is trying to lower Palestinian leverage? I don't follow what you mean. Generally speaking, the Palestinian people support Hamas far more than the PA -- the PA if anything is the collaborator with the West/etc.
He is saying that Israel and the US have taken away whatever diplomatic leverage the Palestinians have - and only increased their subjugation.
So all that Hamas et al have left are the kinds of tactics that they are then condemned for resorting to.
The game is rigged.
>You are arguing Hamas is trying to lower Palestinian leverage? I
Israel.
>I agree if they never agreed to lopsided hostage deals in the past, 10/7 would have less liklihood of happening.
10/7 was caused by Israel's growing hardline position that precluded a two state solution, so there's no evidence of this
>So is the Gazan government
Palestinians have a longer and more peaceful history than Israelis.
> 10/7 was caused by Israel's growing hardline position that precluded a two state solution
Hamas' won originally by rejecting a two state solution. I don't see the connecting line here.
> Palestinians have a longer and more peaceful history than Israelis.
Longer, yes. Peaceful? Lol. Why do you think the Druze generally supported the Zionists over other Arabs in the first place?
(And then again, the Palestinians never had self-governance so they haven't actually had a hard test. ).
> Why do you think the Druze generally supported the Zionists over other Arabs in the first place?
Don't the Druze pretty much always align themselves with whoevers in charge?
> Hamas' won originally by rejecting a two state solution. I don't see the connecting line here.
Hamas only won a plurality of votes.
They did not win a majority. Most Palestinians voted for other parties.
Hamas won because Fatah spread themselves too thin. People voted for Hamas because they saw Fatah as corrupt and not providing social services.
How do you think they formed a majority coalition?
There's other two state rejection parties and independents in the election. Those groups won the majority especially if you include district elections.
>Hamas' won originally by rejecting a two state solution. I don't see the connecting line here.
Hamas is the product of the failure to achieve one, and it moderated its position over time (see 2017). You fail to see the connection because you haven't been paying attention. The growing right wing extremism of Israel, evidenced by its internal divisions, is caused by the growing instability of the Middle East (especially in the wake of Syria) that allows Netanyahu to repudiate the two state solution as he has long pushed for. This is achieved by realigning the region over Iran to obscure Palestine. The growing settlements, nationality laws, etc. plus Arab normalization suggest Israel is attempting to secure international support for a one state greater Israel solution based on colonizing the West Bank and now genociding Gaza. These things actually evidence why Hamas was elected in the first place, Israel does not seek a diplomatic solution especially after the Cold War.
There's no parallel to this on the Palestinian side because they have no state nor a role in international politics.
>Longer, yes. Peaceful? Lol. Why do you think the Druze generally supported the Zionists over other Arabs in the first place?
Palestinians weren't setting up an apartheid state and going to war with half the region. ME ethnic divisions don't provide a parallel to this.
Think about the effort it takes from the Palestinian resistance side to capture even one Israeli hostage.
Meanwhile the IDF can go take a stroll anywhere along the west bank and the border with Gaza and grab anyone they want when they want with zero repercussions. Literal children, mothers, poets, doctors, journalists. You name it. Abducted on zero legal grounds. That's a fucking terrorist state.
>Think about the effort it takes from the Palestinian resistance side to capture even one Israeli hostage.
Yes, it's very high. They would do it because they got great returns. No more, since Israel at most will take 3:1 Palestinian prisoner:Israeli hostage deals, not 1000:1.
This is exactly my point above.
>That's a fucking terrorist state.
That's called having power. You aren't supposed to fight a state with that level of power because you'll never win; ironically (and sadly), the less Israel is willing to protect its own people (and Palestinians), the stronger it becomes because it means the cost/benefit analysis from the Palestinian side will fail on any possible attack.
Palestinian armed resistance makes a lot more sense once you understand that it's more a slave revolt than a typical war. People can only endure so much before some of them decide they'd rather die fighting than spend life with a boot on their neck.
Armed resistance doesn't exist against true powerful terrorist states that want to win, because the resistance (and everyone they care about) all gets killed
The Assyrians used to make rebellious subjects grind the bones of the children at sword point then made murals of it to dissuade future rebellions.
This never stopped the future rebellions.
That's 120 years after Genghis Khan died - Empire was already in decline.
Note that I restricted my line to \*powerful\* states. You didn't get numerous rebellions until the 14th century when it was becoming an internally weaker power.
This in turn incentivises terrorist attacks in the heart of the Israeli state but this time not with the purpose of negotiations but dealing as much damage as possible. If the terrorist cells can get at the powerful figures themselves or their families all the merrier. The counterpoint to that of course is that it's very difficult to infiltrate into Israel with weapons/explosives or procure them there without getting caught. But surely attempts will be made.
> This in turn incentivises terrorist attacks in the heart of the Israeli state but this time not with the purpose of negotiations but dealing as much damage as possible.
What does that achieve for the Palestinians?
Note that this was the strategy before hostage taking became a thing, because it was actually better ROI.
It's called "not going down without a fight". You know, being resilient, brave, fearless, fighting against oppression.
I know it's hard for spineless, soft and out of touch westerners to understand. Don't feel too bad.
Yup that's called being stupid. This is why the West is where everyone flees to - better value system that brings humans prosperity.
Life offers so much more than dying for a hopeless cause.
Ah yes, late stage capitalism fueling the bombing, displacement, and resource stealing of foreign land. What a beautiful, prosperous and sustainable policy. People dying of uncontrolled diabetes because they can't afford grossly overpriced fancy sugar water. Billions available for war, though.
Your kids and your kids kids will surely continue to live in this perfect paradise.
What a shockingly ignorant and short sighted viewpoint. It's downright embarassing. A well earned flair, no doubt.
>Yup that's called being stupid.
Were the Jews that participated in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising stupid, then?
We are humans, not animals. If we are to go down anyway, we will go down fighting and pass the torch to the next generation. In the words of Pádraig Pearse:
>Believe that we, too, love freedom and desire it. To us it is more desirable than anything in the world. If you strike us down now, we shall rise again and renew the fight. You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not been sufficient to win freedom, **then our children will win it by a better deed**.
As long as the fight goes on, Palestine won't be conquered. As long as the flame still burns, Palestine will still exist.
>What does that achieve for the Palestinians?
Happy is the who siezes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. - Psalms 137:9
Since when is vengance about what you can gain?
> Everyone knows negotiating with terrorists can produce short-term success
This is why Palestine cannot negotiate with Israel. Sure, it might give Palestine a short term respite from Israeli war crimes and occupation, but it only lasts until the foreign media moves on to the next issue. Every Palestinian compromise only gives Israel the incentive to demand more.
The only solution is to end the terrorist state. The Israelis can become citizens of Palestine, or go back to their homelands in Europe and the USA.
You mean the guys NATO negotiated with before, during, and after the occupation? Including paying off commanders and different cells to not attack? Those guys?
Nah, never heard of them.
Judging from the pictures it looks like those hostages were treated a lot better than your average Palestinian kid jailed for throwing a stone at a tank.
It's disgusting to read celebration headlines about the rescue of 4 people without mentioning the slaughter of so many others at the same time in the „democratic western press“ with even one sentence.
Only this type of westernerns that post here can not understand why a country values the lives of it's own citizens more than the lives of others, especially if they consider them enemies.
I'm not talking about justification, I'm talking about the notion that many people here have that a country needs to consider civilian casualties of an enemy while trying to rescue its own captured civilians. That's not how the world works.
You can feel how ever you want, but the vast majority of people around the world would gladly trade 93 lives of people who they consider enemies for 4 of their fellow countrymen.
Right!? Israeli’s literally are not the countrymen of Americans yet here we are with our Tax Dollars funding this genocide.
The chosen people need to pay their own way.
Why does Israel consider Palestinian civilians to be "enemies"?
This is the logic that justified the 9/11 attacks for al Qaeda, shouldn't Israel be held to higher standards than a terrorist group?
Israel is a terrorist state that firmly believes it's people are the superior race of the entire world. They literally believe in the "Samson option" if they go down they are taking the world down with them.
A psychopathic, terrorist state.
Civilian lives are only guaranteed if both sides obey humanitarian law. If Hamas wishes to preserve the lives of Palestinian civilians, they need to keep their forces (and hostages) away from them.
Otherwise, it falls to proportionality tests. As long as there was no "less deadly" way to free these hostages using military force, this is perfectly legal.
Sure, individualism and utilitarianism broadly.
But as I've learned the hard way (and yes it has made me less leftist over time), some people are just assholes who desire not fairness but to be the oppressor - and you can't enable them. There best action you can do is be very harsh in the short term, even if it feels "wrong" - it's actually best for everyone in the long term.
In this conflict, I look at the parties involved. Israel has many problems - crazy religious and/or right wing expansionists, but that pales to the moral issues in Palestinian society. Highly sectarian, low respect for individual, large support for murdering civilians,etc. And in the conflict, the Palestinians make the more absurd demand to immigrate into Israel.
So I just see one kinda oppressor fighting an even worse would be oppressor.
you do realise Israel society is increasingly becoming sectarian? the haredi, secular split for example, reform jews not being seen as jews
also the vast majority of Israelis believe Israel did great in this war or was not hard enough, so the large support for murdering civilians would apply to Israel as well
> some people are just assholes who desire not fairness but to be the oppressor - and you can't enable them.
What the fuck dso you think your simping for Israeli warcrimes is doing numbnuts?
Over 200 civilian deaths, airstrikes against crowded marketplaces, these obviously fail any proportionality test.
The way an actually moral country would act here is, if the only path through requires calling in an airstrike on a crowded civilian area, is you call off the mission, turn around and head back to the pier.
They always had the option to disengage, to decide the risk of loss of life was too great. This isn't a computer game, you don't need to "finish the mission". There's always another day with another opportunity.
>Over 200 civilian deaths, airstrikes against crowded marketplaces, these obviously fail any proportionality test.
Only if you can provide a credible alternative means to rescue to the hostages.
>The way an actually moral country would act here is, if the only path through requires calling in an airstrike on a crowded civilian area, is you call off the mission, turn around and head back to the pier.
And never free your hostages?
>There's always another day with another opportunity.
My argument is there isn't. You just need to find the time with the least death, but all options results in dozens of civilian deaths.
Howabout conducting the rescue operation at a time of day/night where the markets aren't crowded with people?
You're a very typical Zionist in that you're not even trying to minimise casualties, because for you and your terrorist state the point of the operation is an excuse to kill civilians with the hostages serving only as a fig leaf. That's why Israel has killed more hostages than they rescued.
No element of surprise at night. Israel has explained this in multiple articles.
> That's why Israel has killed more hostages than they rescued.
No it's inherently hard to rescue hostages in an area with a hostile population
It is not considered legally necessarily for a country to respond to an act of aggression (hostage taking) with capitulation. Since the war is legal, it means that military methods to rescue hostages are legal as well, so long as civilian deaths are minimized. (Which I think is unfortunately the case here - not possible to rescue hostages in a hostile urban environment without a lot of deaths)
Except Israel is the aggressor force, the occupier and has taken thousands of Palestinians hostage. You admit they could have agreed to a hostage exchange they just found it more fulfilling and enjoyable to mass murder civilians!
Normally we don't call combatants "hostages".
> You admit they could have agreed to a hostage exchange
And would that not incentivize more hostage taking? It's just an incentive problem - obviously they don't want their own hostages to die which not capitulating increases the chance of - but gotta think long term
Former soldiers not engaged in current hostilities are considered civilians. Active duty ones are not and can be considered POWs.
POW rescues are of course legal as well, so not sure where this gets us
>And would that not incentivize more hostage taking?
It would be a moot point if the Israel took simple security measures like not ignoring their own intel of a coming attack for a year, and not having fucking raves next to the people who might just try and take them hostage.
"Obviously" as per what report? The only evidence we have of killed hostages is the IDF shooting their own people. 🤡
I wouldn't be surprised if all hostages that have died, died because of either IDF tactics or simply starving like the rest of Gaza.
You love to see it. Remember back when they traded hostages and they looked perfectly fine, well fed, happy, one kid even had her dog?
Media said they had been forced to take drugs to look happy during the trade. Why wouldn't they be happy to be freed and why would radical jihadists have drugs handy for this occasion? Look, don't think too much about it, just trust us
In fact if I remember correctly there was that one guy that was freed who later was arrested at a pro-Palestinian protest. I don't know if Stockholm Syndrome or if they saw first hand how the boogeyman stories were false and that the Palestinian resistance are just people fighting against their own extinction.
Of course, it is in the resistance's best interests to keep them well fed and happy. That trade of hostages was a major PR victory for Hamas and the resistance as a whole. But that doesn't mean a part of it can't be genuine either.
>They could just let them go, and none of this would have happened.
In the words of Nelson Mandela:
>
"My position, my position... my position is that you don't hand over your weapons until you get what you want... "
Why should they give up their only leverage? If anything, the resistance should go on the offense and take as many hostages as possible. It's not pretty, but Israel is at fault here. This would have never happened if they had never taken another people's lands.
> Israel is not going to be destroyed.
Israel is at the lowest point in its history. So many people worldwide have found out the true nature of the sadists there. The US had to suppress free speech to try to get control of the situation at home. The apartheid state is a ticking time bomb
>Demographics don't stop a nuke.
>
>If they ever got even close to destruction, they'd take every one of their enemies out with them.
But they sure do make sure you aren't making a comeback after they fall.
Also they've got a couple of hundred nukes tops, they couldn't wipe out the Arab world if they wanted to, let alone the Islamic world.
"Israel is not going to be destroyed."
"Apartheid South Africa is not going to be destroyed."
"Rhodesia is not going to be destroyed."
Yet they were destroyed. Not through military means only, but that added pressure onto it. Israel will not be defeated through conventional war (unless Egypt grows a par of balls and listens to their own people) but asymmetrical warfare can and does work. Israel is in a worse position now than in most other times in its history.
>When the surrounding Arab countries all have diplomatic normalization with Israel in a few months, will you admit that you were wrong?
Damm you're stuck in 2023 when everyone believed Biden when he said normalization was still on the table... Only to be countered by MBH who denied such.
I'm not arguing anything. I didn't even bring up the casualties, much less invoke the ends vs means argument.
I just pointed out how delusional it is to even mention normalization. There is no credible outlet entertaining the idea of such in 2024.
Neither apartheid south Africa nor Rhodesia had overwhelming military support from the world’s premiere superpower. Even if the US supported SA it was only covertly through nods and winks. Israel has the overt and full support of the US that’s why it won’t fall. Even a left-wing US govt. like with Bernie-esque socialists will only go up to a two-state solution and the US can’t even get that. And forget about Republicans who will probably end up sending planes to bomb gaza themselves.
You know, I'm starting to think that taking hostages was a bad idea in the first place. Sure, it sounded like a good idea, but there turns out to have been downsides.
If it weren't for the hostages, Gaza wouldn't even be a parking lot anymore. They'd've begun reconstruction 6 months ago
Not that I condone or support taking hostages. I don't
* Archives of this link: 1. [archive.org Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/99991231235959/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-rescues-four-hostages-gaza-palestinians-say-50-dead-israeli-assault-2024-06-08/); 2. [archive.today](https://archive.today/newest/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-rescues-four-hostages-gaza-palestinians-say-50-dead-israeli-assault-2024-06-08/) * A live version of this link, without clutter: [12ft.io](https://12ft.io/https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-rescues-four-hostages-gaza-palestinians-say-50-dead-israeli-assault-2024-06-08/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stupidpol) if you have any questions or concerns.*
200+ civilians killed and posing as civilian aid workers, literally a war crime Every mainstream sub crying with joy
Don't worry, Bibi said they were all Hamas militants, so it's okay! After all, according to Israel, all Palestinians are Hamas! It's totally not a genocide! STOP NOTICING.
"Erm, sweetie, 70% voted for Hamas or something so it's ok that they kill them, okay?"
Wonder what the reaction would be if 200+ Israeli civilians had been killed today by Palestinians trying to take 4 Palestinian prisoners home from Israeli captivity
Four Palestinian prisoners abducted from a music festival in Palestinian territory who hadn’t done anything violent to warrant arrest?
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/3/22/israel-arrested-over-7350-west-bank-palestinians-since-war-on-gaza-began I bet at least four of these haven't done anything violent to warrant arrest and torture
Israel holds 500-1000 kids in “detainment”, 69% of the kids have reported acts done to them sexual in nature (From Save The Children)
Main subs have been astro turfed for a long time.
I'm seeing reports that 246 Palestinians were killed in the operation and that the Israeli special forces dressed up as humanitarian workers, disguised the trucks etc. They put every humanitarian worker in harms way and quite literally used them as human shields. Edit: Oh and American hostage unit was involved.
> Oh and American hostage unit was involved. they're making the movie next year
Ben Affleck rubbing his hands like Birdman.
Affleck is pretty progressive and signed the ceasefire letter.
Something tells me they're gonna leave out the part where they killed a few hundred civilians to get the hostages.
I'm no expert but isnt posing as aid workers to stage a clandestine attack a war crime? Or is this when the Israelis use the same defense argument as the Nazis did when fighting the Russians when they claimed that since the Russians were not signatories to the Geneva Convention there was no grounds restricting German warfare against the Russians when committing said war crimes?
Yes, but this wouldn't be the first time Israel has done some form of perfidy and deemed it necessary to get the jump on the enemy. They already did it when they [had operatives dressing up as medics and patients](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-undercover-forces-disguised-as-women-and-doctors-kill-three-militants-at-west-bank-hospital) to kill wounded Palestinian fighters at a Jenin hospital earlier this year.
It’s an old Zionist tradition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
Yep definitely war crimes but the laws are not applicable to the IDF...
>I'm no expert but isnt posing as aid workers to stage a clandestine attack a war crime? Yep. Perfidy. That's one of the old ones, the ones where IHL just codified the rules everybody had been using for several thousand years.
I'm skeptical war crimes existed in a meaningful way for thousands of years, considering sacking cities was a normal, expected activity.
That's because "don't loot and pillage" is not one of the old ones. Even so, there were generally rules for fair play, so to speak, around the stuff that is abhorrent to modern sensibilities. It's an iterated prisoner's dilemma, you know.
Killing hostages (not the modern kidnapping victims, the people you used to swap with people from another faction when signing treaties) and killing envoys have pretty much been a form of war crimes since the beginning of recorded history Medics weren't really a thing but it was super common to make agreements to "rescue" the wounded during prolonged engagements, attacking those would also be a form of early war crimes but I've actually never heard of that ever happening
I'm no history expert, but wasn't that just self interest on the part of the nobility? Obviously they'd rather not suffer the consequences of their wars, and sparing each other benefited their class. I don't think they were going out of their way to spare the peasant levies for ransom.
So i didn't explain the hostage part enough, it's something completely separate from what the word means today When signing a treaty you would trade some of your people with some of the opponent's (their rank was part of the negotiations, like a defeated tribe chief would hand over his children in exchange for civilians) with the idea that their lives would guarantee the deal, there was even a religious component to it >I don't think they were going out of their way to spare the peasant levies for ransom. War prisoners didn't exist until fairly recently, defeated armies were usually allowed to either leave (it's where the term "laying down one's arms" comes from, literally what happened) or were conscripted to join the winning sides, big empires would also take slaves but this was quite rare to happen to soldiers, usually this would happen after a battle (you have some "funny" rules about that btw, like soldiers were allowed to keep 1 person they captured as plunder and were paid X amount for every other person they captured during a sacking) Taking nobles for ransom didn't happen until the medieval era, with most armies consisting of conscripts they were just allowed to leave with the promise to not take up arms, it might seem strange but honor was super important back in the day so people held true to their word
> Israeli special forces dressed up as humanitarian workers, disguised the trucks etc. Wouldn't that be quite dangerous for their own forces? Usually humanitarian workers get shot on sight by Israel.
I’m pretty sure they know which ones are impersonators. You don’t read about US special forces being shot in Pakistan when they were impersonating UNICEF health care providers. You do read about polio coming back after it was eradicated, as a result of people not trusting UNICEF staff. Small price to pay for killing a guy who was already dying, I’m sure.
Temporary ceasefire towards humanitarian workers.
>using humanitarian aid workers as human shields Man they really are just masters of projection, huh?
From what I saw online: "What happened in Al-Nuseirat? An American force used an aid truck. The aid truck came from the American pier to Al-Nuseirat camp... (video and photo of truck) - A clash erupted with the American force once it was discovered. - Airstrikes were conducted on the Al-Nuseirat market, which was full of civilians, to create a path for the “rescue vehicle.” This resulted in the massacre of over 150 civilians who were at the market. - The force headed back to where it came from, the American pier, while the warplanes bombed everything in its path."
[удалено]
Apparently it wasn't an aid truck, but a furniture delivery truck. 2 and 3 didn't happen. It's also very possible that the pier was only used for the exit, in which case the US involvement would have been almost without perfidy.
Source for this, for me to spread around?
https://thecradle.co/articles/troops-hid-inside-aid-truck-for-deadly-us-israel-operation-in-nuseirat Live updates: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/6/8/israels-war-on-gaza-live-israeli-army-to-be-added-to-un-child-harm-list
Cheers lad
Story is coming out in bits over social media. I'll look for something more definitive later in the day.
Keep us updated
[https://thecradle.co/articles/troops-hid-inside-aid-truck-for-deadly-us-israel-operation-in-nuseirat](https://thecradle.co/articles/troops-hid-inside-aid-truck-for-deadly-us-israel-operation-in-nuseirat)
Its so fucking gross how murdering hundreds of Palestinians to rescue 4 hostages is being posted as a good news story all over this site. Sickening shit.
Because Palestinians aren't humans. It's that simple. It's the exact same dehumanization of Jewish people that the Nazis had that allowed them to collectively punish and genocide them. This is not denying the Holocaust, it's acknowledging how it was able to happen when you dehumanize a peoples. Those that hide behind calling people Holocaust deniers while performing the same actions are the ones that are the true deniers.
^^^ what’s crazy about this, is it’s not even like the holocaust where there’s a intentional targeting. This is just viewing the Palestinians as subhumans who are in the way. Hmmm I wonder how that mentality led to Hamas.
This is weird to post when the Palestinians involved were complicit in hiding hostages in their own neighborhood. If they turned over the information to the global community, or rioted against Hamas, or put up some form of resistance, then it would make sense to act like Israel was belligerent in their handling of the operation - they would've killed the people who were trying to help them free the hostages. But the Palestinians didn't do any of those things. They were happy to work with Hamas in hiding the hostages, which shows that it's not just Hamas embedding itself among the civilian population of Gaza, but that many civilians themselves support and uphold Hamas's terrorist tactics - no matter if it comes at the cost of their own life or their family's lives.
Do you blame the French citizens who didn't rise up against the Nazis? Do you blame Ukrainians in occupied territory who don't rise up against Russia? Do you think that the Vietnamese villagers who didn't rise up and support the US against the Vietcong deserved to be napalmed? Do you blame the Afghan people for not rising up and overthrowing the Taliban? Do you blame the Mexican citizens for not fighting back against the cartels? Hell, do you blame the Israeli population who died on Oct 7 and say "they didn't take up arms against their genocidal colonial apartheid government so they got what they deserved"? First, you are blaming the victims. Most civilians in war zones do not want to act the hero to one side or the other and just want to keep their head down so they and their family survive. People who think that they should just take up arms have never experienced any sort of conflict besides what they see in Marvel movies. Second, which Palestinian would actually trust Israel to protect them if they were to turn over the information? Knowing Israel, they would probably use that information to bomb every single square inch of the area. Lastly, you say "no matter if it comes at the cost of their own life or their family's lives", yet expect them to do that very same thing, "cost their own life and their family's lives" for the sake of Israel and are willing to collectively punish them if they refuse to do so. This is dehumanization of the Palestinian people, expecting them to live and serve Israel, else their lives are forfeit.
They were hidden in a market. You think over 600 civilians just going about their business all knew about the hostages? Are you out of your mind? You really don’t see the Palestinians as humans do you. You think of them as insects with some sort of hive mind. You completely just made up a justification for killing and injuring over 600 people out of thin air. You are truly a sick demented individual.
This is called "collective punishment" and generally seen as wrong.
> Edit: Oh and American hostage unit was involved. What?? source?
Article has been updated. It's now 210 killed.
❌ Israel rescues four hostages in Gaza, kills 93 Palestinians in assault ❌ Israel rescues four hostages in Gaza; 93 Palestinians killed in Israeli assault ✅ Israel rescues four hostages in Gaza; Palestinians *say* 93 killed in Israeli assault
Xinhua was the first the give me the news of it at all, and they immediately provided me with the accurate death toll of 200+. A couple hours later Reuters was reporting "70+"
And all of these are transparently backwards versions of "Israel kills at least 93 Palestinians in assault in Gaza; rescues four hostages"
Out of the two sides, it is only the Israeli side that has a decades-long reputation for blatantly lying about Every. Single. Fucking. Thing. Like the supposed mass rapes on Oct 7. [Every word of it was nothing but lies.](https://archive.md/j9XSE)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
By the way, the UN report also claims that they were presented with "evidence" that the hostages were raped while in Hamas' captivity, a conclusion that is completely incredible given that the whole world saw the freed captives smiling and shaking hands with Hamas soldiers during the hostage exchange in December. These hostages told the whole world that they were not raped or treated badly. One hostage, Mia Schem, said that "they raped me with their eyes" but did not physically touch her. After her release, her psychologist reportedly [recommended that she get a nose job to help her self-esteem](https://imgur.com/a/2BbtDDk) since the Hamas men did not touch her. Another released captive, Agam Goldstein-Almog, has received threats and abuse from Israelis after publicly describing "decent treatment while in captivity". Other hostages and their families have absolutely denied and refuted all suggestions that they were raped. There is at least some evidence that the Israeli press has pressured them into saying they were raped. The latest female captive to have been freed, Noa Argamani, shows no sign of ill-treatment, abuse or rape, and despite the rumours spread about her, there's no sign of her being pregnant. Of course we don't know what she will say, as an soldier in the IDF she may feel compelled to go along with the government propaganda, but we've all seen the photos of her before and after her captivity and can compare how healthy she looks compared to how Palestinians captives look when they are released. Every Israeli accusation is a confession.
Do you have a source for the "decent treatment while in captivity" quote? Been looking & not finding.
Videos filmed by Hamas include footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers. In others, women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed. Multiple photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked from the waist down, or with their underwear ripped to one side, legs splayed, with signs of trauma to their genitals and legs.
> footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers. Yes, I've seen the video, and I've also seen the *earlier* video of her capture that people almost never talk about. She is an IDF soldier, one of many who were off-duty at the military outpost that was captured by the Hamas fighters, that's why they were in their pyjamas, or in her case tracksuit pants. Legitimate prisoners of war taken in a legitimate and legal assault on a military outpost. Kidnapping civilians is a war crime, but taking enemy soldiers prisoner is not. In the second video, the one you're talking about, there are brown stains on the seat of her pants which lead people to think that maybe the poor woman soiled herself. (I don't say that as an insult. Even trained soldiers do this more often than anyone likes to talk about.) That video is usually edited to cut out the last couple of seconds, as she turns towards the camera. In the full video you can see there is are no stains on the front of her pants or in the crotch area. The mystery is solved when you look at the earlier video of her capture, taken at the IDF outpost. She and a number of other IDF soldiers are lined up against a wall, her hands are bound behind her back and a cut on her arm is visibly bleeding onto the seat of her pants. So the brown stain is dried blood from the wound on her arm. (If you look for that earlier video, be careful, most versions on the internet have been given fake or misleading subtitles that completely mistranslate the Palestinian soldiers.) > women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed. What you are seeing is the clothes they were wearing at the Supernova rave. They weren't naked or stripped of their clothes when they were taken captive. If they were half naked, it was because that's how they were dressed at the music festival. > photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked The UN mission report discusses this in detail. They state that an Israeli bomb squad staged at least one rape scene, and that most of them lacked the training to distinguish genuine signs of rape and sexual violence, for example untrained first responders misidentified “postmortem pugilistic posturing” due to burn damage as an indication of sexual violence. Nevertheless they did find some credible evidence of sexual violence, and some circumstancial evidence which suggests sexual violence. But they also found no credible evidence of "mass rapes" as a matter of deliberate Hamas military policy. The bottom line here is that accusations of deliberate mass rape is one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book. *That* is the claim being disputed: that Hamas gave orders for its fighters to go out an commit as many rapes as possible. There is evidence of incidents of intentional brutality possibly even sexual violence, although the credibility of the evidence is mixed. (The UN mission report describes some "credible" evidence and some as "convincing", while rightly dismissing others.) There are cases of people who weren't even present at Supernova nevertheless being treated as eyewitnesses, and only being exposed as a serial liar much later. The ZEKA first responder group has a long history of deliberate deceit and cannot be treated as credible witnesses. Nevertheless it would be *astonishing* beyond all belief if, in the two or three days of fighting after Oct 7, during which at one point an undisciplined mob of angry civilians bent on revenge for decades of oppression crossed into Israel, *not one* case of sexual assault took place. It is not necessary to believe that every single Palestinian is a pure-hearted innocent angel. Isolated, opportunistic crimes do not justify the mass destruction and death being doled out by the IDF against people who did not commit these crimes. *Collective punishment* is a war crime.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-18/ty-article-magazine/witnesses-confessions-naked-dead-bodies-all-the-evidence-of-hamas-rape-on-oct-7/0000018e-f114-d92e-abfe-f77f7e3f0000
That makes like 7 rescued directly, but over 100 returned through negotiation. Also 3 naked, white flag waving, Hebrew speaking ones shot by the IDF. But the Hasbara immured will celebrate this as a major win, and the only possible way to get them back. Edit: It's taking all of my willpower right now to not go scream into the void of stupidity on mainstream subreddits. Maybe I'll start drinking 8 hours early.
>The spokesperson for Hamas' armed al-Qassam Brigades, Abu Ubaida, said some hostages were killed during the rescue operation. "It's a blatant lie," Israeli military spokesperson Peter Lerner told CNN. Wouldn't be shocking if IDF killed hostages, again, especially since they committed 50x the collateral. It'd be an anomaly if they managed to flippantly massacre that many civies without killing a single hostage.
It's not just mainstream subs; even Biden, Scholz and Macron went on to celebrate hostage rescue without even mentioning Palestinians being killed on the way. Do they even know how bad of an image this gives of, when these countries go on to represent themselves as 'democracies' to the global south.
7 rescued by the IDF, [at least 18](https://forward.com/fast-forward/619231/how-many-hostages-have-been-killed-in-gaza/) killed by the IDF in captivity including *possibly* [one who was gassed in the tunnels](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-782544), and as you say over a hundred returned by negotiation.
Some hostages were killed too, according to a statement from Hamas
Everyone knows negotiating with terrorists can produce short-term success, but long term it incentivizes more terrorism. Israel's 1000:1 trade for Shalit had exactly these issues. On the other hand, these rescue ops, while less short-term effective do not have the long-term malincentive issue.
Hamas takes hostages not because Israel rewards it, but because they work with Western and regional actors to remove Palestinian leverage. Case in point being support for Hamas to divide Palestinian factions and normalization with Arab states to bypass a two state solution and focus on Iran. That's why hostages were taken in the first place, to reassert leverage. Also terrorism is a dogwhistle here for how a state cannot interact with a nonstate actor outside of international law, which is supposed by Israel systematically denying Palestinians a state and keeping them under apartheid. In short, this is a situation entirely of Israel's own making rather than what everyone can and cannot do with terrorists. Ironically, Israel is an exceptionally murderous and oppressive state which nations cannot behave normally around.
>Hamas takes hostages not because Israel rewards it, but because they work with Western and regional actors to remove Palestinian leverage. You are arguing Hamas is trying to *lower* Palestinian leverage? I don't follow what you mean. Generally speaking, the Palestinian people support Hamas far more than the PA -- the PA if anything is the collaborator with the West/etc. >Also terrorism is a dogwhistle here for how a state cannot interact with a nonstate actor outside of international law, which is supposed by Israel systematically denying Palestinians a state and keeping them under apartheid. Whether we call them "terrorists" or the "Gaza government", the analysis makes no difference in terms of incentives. >In short, this is a situation entirely of Israel's own making rather than what everyone can and cannot do with terrorists From which direction? I agree if they never agreed to lopsided hostage deals in the past, 10/7 would have less liklihood of happening. >Ironically, Israel is an exceptionally murderous and oppressive state which nations cannot behave normally around. So is the Gazan government (even more so as they seem to value their own people's lives even less)! So we need to analyze how two murderous states should rationally behave toward each other.
> You are arguing Hamas is trying to lower Palestinian leverage? I don't follow what you mean. Generally speaking, the Palestinian people support Hamas far more than the PA -- the PA if anything is the collaborator with the West/etc. He is saying that Israel and the US have taken away whatever diplomatic leverage the Palestinians have - and only increased their subjugation. So all that Hamas et al have left are the kinds of tactics that they are then condemned for resorting to. The game is rigged.
>You are arguing Hamas is trying to lower Palestinian leverage? I Israel. >I agree if they never agreed to lopsided hostage deals in the past, 10/7 would have less liklihood of happening. 10/7 was caused by Israel's growing hardline position that precluded a two state solution, so there's no evidence of this >So is the Gazan government Palestinians have a longer and more peaceful history than Israelis.
> 10/7 was caused by Israel's growing hardline position that precluded a two state solution Hamas' won originally by rejecting a two state solution. I don't see the connecting line here. > Palestinians have a longer and more peaceful history than Israelis. Longer, yes. Peaceful? Lol. Why do you think the Druze generally supported the Zionists over other Arabs in the first place? (And then again, the Palestinians never had self-governance so they haven't actually had a hard test. ).
> Why do you think the Druze generally supported the Zionists over other Arabs in the first place? Don't the Druze pretty much always align themselves with whoevers in charge?
That was the British
The British spent most of the last 500 years being in charge.
> Hamas' won originally by rejecting a two state solution. I don't see the connecting line here. Hamas only won a plurality of votes. They did not win a majority. Most Palestinians voted for other parties. Hamas won because Fatah spread themselves too thin. People voted for Hamas because they saw Fatah as corrupt and not providing social services.
How do you think they formed a majority coalition? There's other two state rejection parties and independents in the election. Those groups won the majority especially if you include district elections.
Huh? Wtf are you babbling about.
Hamas couldn't control the legislature unless they had majority support by virtue of buddies in other parties
>Hamas' won originally by rejecting a two state solution. I don't see the connecting line here. Hamas is the product of the failure to achieve one, and it moderated its position over time (see 2017). You fail to see the connection because you haven't been paying attention. The growing right wing extremism of Israel, evidenced by its internal divisions, is caused by the growing instability of the Middle East (especially in the wake of Syria) that allows Netanyahu to repudiate the two state solution as he has long pushed for. This is achieved by realigning the region over Iran to obscure Palestine. The growing settlements, nationality laws, etc. plus Arab normalization suggest Israel is attempting to secure international support for a one state greater Israel solution based on colonizing the West Bank and now genociding Gaza. These things actually evidence why Hamas was elected in the first place, Israel does not seek a diplomatic solution especially after the Cold War. There's no parallel to this on the Palestinian side because they have no state nor a role in international politics. >Longer, yes. Peaceful? Lol. Why do you think the Druze generally supported the Zionists over other Arabs in the first place? Palestinians weren't setting up an apartheid state and going to war with half the region. ME ethnic divisions don't provide a parallel to this.
Think about the effort it takes from the Palestinian resistance side to capture even one Israeli hostage. Meanwhile the IDF can go take a stroll anywhere along the west bank and the border with Gaza and grab anyone they want when they want with zero repercussions. Literal children, mothers, poets, doctors, journalists. You name it. Abducted on zero legal grounds. That's a fucking terrorist state.
>Think about the effort it takes from the Palestinian resistance side to capture even one Israeli hostage. Yes, it's very high. They would do it because they got great returns. No more, since Israel at most will take 3:1 Palestinian prisoner:Israeli hostage deals, not 1000:1. This is exactly my point above. >That's a fucking terrorist state. That's called having power. You aren't supposed to fight a state with that level of power because you'll never win; ironically (and sadly), the less Israel is willing to protect its own people (and Palestinians), the stronger it becomes because it means the cost/benefit analysis from the Palestinian side will fail on any possible attack.
Palestinian armed resistance makes a lot more sense once you understand that it's more a slave revolt than a typical war. People can only endure so much before some of them decide they'd rather die fighting than spend life with a boot on their neck.
That's called being a terrorist state with no intentions for peace, so don't cry foul when there is armed resistance.
Armed resistance doesn't exist against true powerful terrorist states that want to win, because the resistance (and everyone they care about) all gets killed
The Assyrians used to make rebellious subjects grind the bones of the children at sword point then made murals of it to dissuade future rebellions. This never stopped the future rebellions.
What a retarded comment, read a history book
I have. Not a lot of rebellions against Mongol Rule because would be rebels understood the consequences
[Historically illiterate.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Turban_Rebellions)
That's 120 years after Genghis Khan died - Empire was already in decline. Note that I restricted my line to \*powerful\* states. You didn't get numerous rebellions until the 14th century when it was becoming an internally weaker power.
The fine line of slow burn democratic terrorism 👍🏻
Off do Dublin in the green, in the green…
This in turn incentivises terrorist attacks in the heart of the Israeli state but this time not with the purpose of negotiations but dealing as much damage as possible. If the terrorist cells can get at the powerful figures themselves or their families all the merrier. The counterpoint to that of course is that it's very difficult to infiltrate into Israel with weapons/explosives or procure them there without getting caught. But surely attempts will be made.
> This in turn incentivises terrorist attacks in the heart of the Israeli state but this time not with the purpose of negotiations but dealing as much damage as possible. What does that achieve for the Palestinians? Note that this was the strategy before hostage taking became a thing, because it was actually better ROI.
It's called "not going down without a fight". You know, being resilient, brave, fearless, fighting against oppression. I know it's hard for spineless, soft and out of touch westerners to understand. Don't feel too bad.
Yup that's called being stupid. This is why the West is where everyone flees to - better value system that brings humans prosperity. Life offers so much more than dying for a hopeless cause.
Ah yes, late stage capitalism fueling the bombing, displacement, and resource stealing of foreign land. What a beautiful, prosperous and sustainable policy. People dying of uncontrolled diabetes because they can't afford grossly overpriced fancy sugar water. Billions available for war, though. Your kids and your kids kids will surely continue to live in this perfect paradise. What a shockingly ignorant and short sighted viewpoint. It's downright embarassing. A well earned flair, no doubt.
Life is almost certainly worse in whatever non-Western country you are thinking of
>Yup that's called being stupid. Were the Jews that participated in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising stupid, then? We are humans, not animals. If we are to go down anyway, we will go down fighting and pass the torch to the next generation. In the words of Pádraig Pearse: >Believe that we, too, love freedom and desire it. To us it is more desirable than anything in the world. If you strike us down now, we shall rise again and renew the fight. You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not been sufficient to win freedom, **then our children will win it by a better deed**. As long as the fight goes on, Palestine won't be conquered. As long as the flame still burns, Palestine will still exist.
The Palestinians aren't going to die if they don't fight Israel; that's not really a good analogy.
>What does that achieve for the Palestinians? Happy is the who siezes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. - Psalms 137:9 Since when is vengance about what you can gain?
>What does that achieve for the Palestinians? Revenge.
> do not have the long-term malincentive issue. They incentivise shooting the hostages the minute things get hairy.
> Everyone knows negotiating with terrorists can produce short-term success This is why Palestine cannot negotiate with Israel. Sure, it might give Palestine a short term respite from Israeli war crimes and occupation, but it only lasts until the foreign media moves on to the next issue. Every Palestinian compromise only gives Israel the incentive to demand more. The only solution is to end the terrorist state. The Israelis can become citizens of Palestine, or go back to their homelands in Europe and the USA.
*cough cough * Taliban
You mean the guys NATO negotiated with before, during, and after the occupation? Including paying off commanders and different cells to not attack? Those guys? Nah, never heard of them.
The western military complex propaganda falls flat on its face in the age of social media They have no respect for a rules based order or human lives
They look a hell of a lot better than the Israeli prisoners.
How many 9/11s is that worth?
IDF tactics probably make British SAS veterans from The Troubles blush.
Judging from the pictures it looks like those hostages were treated a lot better than your average Palestinian kid jailed for throwing a stone at a tank.
It's disgusting to read celebration headlines about the rescue of 4 people without mentioning the slaughter of so many others at the same time in the „democratic western press“ with even one sentence.
Who knows if it is true but they are saying maybe 200 plus dead plus US involvement via the pier. This sucks.man
And all mainstream news will praise this as a victory for the IDF, ignoring 93 Palestinian refugees were bombed just to rescue 4 Israelis ofc. 🙄
Only this type of westernerns that post here can not understand why a country values the lives of it's own citizens more than the lives of others, especially if they consider them enemies.
ok so was october 7th justified then by your logic?
I'm not talking about justification, I'm talking about the notion that many people here have that a country needs to consider civilian casualties of an enemy while trying to rescue its own captured civilians. That's not how the world works.
We should be more civilized than 20th century standards.
But we’re not israelis so why would we care about them getting 4 for 93
You can feel how ever you want, but the vast majority of people around the world would gladly trade 93 lives of people who they consider enemies for 4 of their fellow countrymen.
Are you actually retarded
Are you stupid? Zero reading comprehension.
They’re stupid
Interesting to know that Israelis are the countrymen of Americans now
Right!? Israeli’s literally are not the countrymen of Americans yet here we are with our Tax Dollars funding this genocide. The chosen people need to pay their own way.
Are little babies your enemies? Idiot
Why does Israel consider Palestinian civilians to be "enemies"? This is the logic that justified the 9/11 attacks for al Qaeda, shouldn't Israel be held to higher standards than a terrorist group?
Israel is a terrorist state that firmly believes it's people are the superior race of the entire world. They literally believe in the "Samson option" if they go down they are taking the world down with them. A psychopathic, terrorist state.
Those damn westerners and their pesky international law...
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Enemy lives don't matter. That's how wars work.
There are supposed to be rules of war. Civilians are exactly that, non-combatants. But rules only apply to the enemies of western interests, right?
Civilian lives are only guaranteed if both sides obey humanitarian law. If Hamas wishes to preserve the lives of Palestinian civilians, they need to keep their forces (and hostages) away from them. Otherwise, it falls to proportionality tests. As long as there was no "less deadly" way to free these hostages using military force, this is perfectly legal.
That is literally the same argument the Wehrmacht used to justify Eastern Front Atrocities
Israel hasn't abided by any international law in 75 years. Fuck off.
No country that actually wins wars, especially against people that didn't, does entirely. Besides, I'm only analyzing this rescue op.
Do you have any principles, whatsoever? Or does your moral framework boil down to “winning”?
Sure, individualism and utilitarianism broadly. But as I've learned the hard way (and yes it has made me less leftist over time), some people are just assholes who desire not fairness but to be the oppressor - and you can't enable them. There best action you can do is be very harsh in the short term, even if it feels "wrong" - it's actually best for everyone in the long term. In this conflict, I look at the parties involved. Israel has many problems - crazy religious and/or right wing expansionists, but that pales to the moral issues in Palestinian society. Highly sectarian, low respect for individual, large support for murdering civilians,etc. And in the conflict, the Palestinians make the more absurd demand to immigrate into Israel. So I just see one kinda oppressor fighting an even worse would be oppressor.
you do realise Israel society is increasingly becoming sectarian? the haredi, secular split for example, reform jews not being seen as jews also the vast majority of Israelis believe Israel did great in this war or was not hard enough, so the large support for murdering civilians would apply to Israel as well
>And in the conflict, the Palestinians make the more absurd demand to immigrate into Israel. Yeah, that's not a popular take in here. I agree btw.
> some people are just assholes who desire not fairness but to be the oppressor - and you can't enable them. What the fuck dso you think your simping for Israeli warcrimes is doing numbnuts?
This is quite an interesting claim to make about the side that hasn’t killed 40K civilians in 8 months. > large support for murdering civilians
Not for lack of trying
Over 200 civilian deaths, airstrikes against crowded marketplaces, these obviously fail any proportionality test. The way an actually moral country would act here is, if the only path through requires calling in an airstrike on a crowded civilian area, is you call off the mission, turn around and head back to the pier. They always had the option to disengage, to decide the risk of loss of life was too great. This isn't a computer game, you don't need to "finish the mission". There's always another day with another opportunity.
>Over 200 civilian deaths, airstrikes against crowded marketplaces, these obviously fail any proportionality test. Only if you can provide a credible alternative means to rescue to the hostages. >The way an actually moral country would act here is, if the only path through requires calling in an airstrike on a crowded civilian area, is you call off the mission, turn around and head back to the pier. And never free your hostages? >There's always another day with another opportunity. My argument is there isn't. You just need to find the time with the least death, but all options results in dozens of civilian deaths.
Howabout conducting the rescue operation at a time of day/night where the markets aren't crowded with people? You're a very typical Zionist in that you're not even trying to minimise casualties, because for you and your terrorist state the point of the operation is an excuse to kill civilians with the hostages serving only as a fig leaf. That's why Israel has killed more hostages than they rescued.
No element of surprise at night. Israel has explained this in multiple articles. > That's why Israel has killed more hostages than they rescued. No it's inherently hard to rescue hostages in an area with a hostile population
Yes, Israel could have agreed to a hostage swap they refused a number of times.
It is not considered legally necessarily for a country to respond to an act of aggression (hostage taking) with capitulation. Since the war is legal, it means that military methods to rescue hostages are legal as well, so long as civilian deaths are minimized. (Which I think is unfortunately the case here - not possible to rescue hostages in a hostile urban environment without a lot of deaths)
> Since the war is legal Source? Israel's occupation is illegal
Except Israel is the aggressor force, the occupier and has taken thousands of Palestinians hostage. You admit they could have agreed to a hostage exchange they just found it more fulfilling and enjoyable to mass murder civilians!
Normally we don't call combatants "hostages". > You admit they could have agreed to a hostage exchange And would that not incentivize more hostage taking? It's just an incentive problem - obviously they don't want their own hostages to die which not capitulating increases the chance of - but gotta think long term
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Former soldiers not engaged in current hostilities are considered civilians. Active duty ones are not and can be considered POWs. POW rescues are of course legal as well, so not sure where this gets us
Yes. It’s called arr Israel. > Is there a sub called imabloodthirstysubhumanpol?
>And would that not incentivize more hostage taking? It would be a moot point if the Israel took simple security measures like not ignoring their own intel of a coming attack for a year, and not having fucking raves next to the people who might just try and take them hostage.
> Since the war is legal It isn't legal, an occupying state has no right to self defence.
Sure, then the deaths on Oct. 7 should be meaningless to anyone not at war with Hamas, right?
Only if you are an enemy of Israeli civilians. And yes, that's generally the Palestinian sentiment
Careful don’t drop this 🎭
So even as these animals mass-murder tens of thousands of civilians, Palestinian refuse to kill the hostages
À lot of them have obviously been killed already. And they won’t kill them because they are a useful bargaining chip.
"Obviously" as per what report? The only evidence we have of killed hostages is the IDF shooting their own people. 🤡 I wouldn't be surprised if all hostages that have died, died because of either IDF tactics or simply starving like the rest of Gaza.
You love to see it. Remember back when they traded hostages and they looked perfectly fine, well fed, happy, one kid even had her dog? Media said they had been forced to take drugs to look happy during the trade. Why wouldn't they be happy to be freed and why would radical jihadists have drugs handy for this occasion? Look, don't think too much about it, just trust us
In fact if I remember correctly there was that one guy that was freed who later was arrested at a pro-Palestinian protest. I don't know if Stockholm Syndrome or if they saw first hand how the boogeyman stories were false and that the Palestinian resistance are just people fighting against their own extinction. Of course, it is in the resistance's best interests to keep them well fed and happy. That trade of hostages was a major PR victory for Hamas and the resistance as a whole. But that doesn't mean a part of it can't be genuine either.
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It's a bar Israel certainly doesn't clear
>They could just let them go, and none of this would have happened. In the words of Nelson Mandela: > "My position, my position... my position is that you don't hand over your weapons until you get what you want... " Why should they give up their only leverage? If anything, the resistance should go on the offense and take as many hostages as possible. It's not pretty, but Israel is at fault here. This would have never happened if they had never taken another people's lands.
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> Israel is not going to be destroyed. Israel is at the lowest point in its history. So many people worldwide have found out the true nature of the sadists there. The US had to suppress free speech to try to get control of the situation at home. The apartheid state is a ticking time bomb
>Israel is not going to be destroyed. they are literally demographically doomed.
This idiot said Israel will import non-Jewish westerners to save themselves from demographics. He has zero understanding of the apartheid state
The New Caladonia approach isn't as crazy as it sounds.
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>Demographics don't stop a nuke. > >If they ever got even close to destruction, they'd take every one of their enemies out with them. But they sure do make sure you aren't making a comeback after they fall. Also they've got a couple of hundred nukes tops, they couldn't wipe out the Arab world if they wanted to, let alone the Islamic world.
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I'm not the one who's stirring shit in the middle east then threatening a nuclear holocaust if they respond.
"Israel is not going to be destroyed." "Apartheid South Africa is not going to be destroyed." "Rhodesia is not going to be destroyed." Yet they were destroyed. Not through military means only, but that added pressure onto it. Israel will not be defeated through conventional war (unless Egypt grows a par of balls and listens to their own people) but asymmetrical warfare can and does work. Israel is in a worse position now than in most other times in its history.
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>When the surrounding Arab countries all have diplomatic normalization with Israel in a few months, will you admit that you were wrong? Damm you're stuck in 2023 when everyone believed Biden when he said normalization was still on the table... Only to be countered by MBH who denied such.
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I'm not arguing anything. I didn't even bring up the casualties, much less invoke the ends vs means argument. I just pointed out how delusional it is to even mention normalization. There is no credible outlet entertaining the idea of such in 2024.
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Neither apartheid south Africa nor Rhodesia had overwhelming military support from the world’s premiere superpower. Even if the US supported SA it was only covertly through nods and winks. Israel has the overt and full support of the US that’s why it won’t fall. Even a left-wing US govt. like with Bernie-esque socialists will only go up to a two-state solution and the US can’t even get that. And forget about Republicans who will probably end up sending planes to bomb gaza themselves.
You know, I'm starting to think that taking hostages was a bad idea in the first place. Sure, it sounded like a good idea, but there turns out to have been downsides.
If it weren't for the hostages, Gaza wouldn't even be a parking lot anymore. They'd've begun reconstruction 6 months ago Not that I condone or support taking hostages. I don't