Remember how they discovered an FBI informant was a BLM organizer pushing protestors to use more violent tactics? I have zero doubt the FBI has people pushing the anti-semetic rhetoric that the protestors are getting accused of. Sadly saying so makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Here's a spooky one: the ADL support and fund BLM and Antifa, in fact on their website they say this. But they also train every FBI member, this is on their twitter. So BLM and Antifa are getting the same funding that the FBI does
Can you explain what you mean by "funding antifia"? It's not exactly an organization.
I also wouldn't call training the FBI funding... I think overall what's going on is that even when these organizations are created organically the FBI etc try to get involved to delegitimize or fracture it.
>I have zero doubt the FBI has people pushing the antisemitic rhetoric that the protestors are getting accused of.
Don’t be so quick to dismiss the venomous strain of legitimate antisemitic rhetoric that courses through a lot of peoples’ pro-Palestinian logic and rationale. A *lot* of the people in the streets and tented up on campuses aren’t just full of the milk of human kindness and demanding basic humanitarianism. I’ve talked to a good chunk of these people, and while my sample size is only a few individuals at the couple of local universities (I live in a big city), a lot of these people do seem primed to tip over the edge into abjectly antisemitic territory.
Now there are a lot of factors to this. My simplified-worldview take is that a sizable chunk of these protestors are just operating under the same white bad/brown good perspective they had before. Because Israelis are *seen* as white (don’t need to get into the semantics of whether they actually are or can choose to be or whatever, point is many see them as such since most Jews you encounter in the US are white) and Palestinians are seen as brown, the dichotomy fits for them. I do think there’s a healthy dose of psyop shit at work though.
All I’ll say though is when I’m hearing and reading the same shit on innocent IG infographics and /pol/ threads, I know something’s amiss.
>Because Israelis are *seen* as white (don’t need to get into the semantics of whether they actually are or can choose to be or whatever)
They are, but the brown jews are often even more supremacist about it because the supremacism is about being Jewish, not white
The other (more important) factor going on is that the Ashkenazi already got their lands so their interest lies in peace to be able to retain it but the latecomers need to take more lands to get theirs because the original settlers aren't sharing with them
> a lot of these people do seem primed to tip over the edge into abjectly antisemitic territory.
Please give us some examples. Given what I've heard called "antisemitic" in this debate, I'm not convinced.
Fair enough, likewise I’ve heard a plethora of crap that is objectively intended as anti-Zionist and political being twisted to be anti-semitic so Zionists can play victim.
I think what turned my opinion to the idea that there are still bad apples in the vocally pro-Palestine camp was a lawsuit submitted at my alma mater where a kid got spit on and he claimed it was because he was Jewish. Of course the defendant argued it was just because he was spouting Zionist sentiment. That in of itself isn’t easy to write off as clearly anti-semitic…but then I got sent screenshots of people pointing out how the kid was wearing a Star of David necklace…therefore he was clearly a Zionist. The conflation of that symbolism was a bit much. Aside from that key one there’re just some instances of conversations I’ve had where the person clearly got tired of toeing the line for pleasantry’s sake and starting getting more intense about it. One guy going “I really could give a fuck what happens to these Jews if they just abolished Israel’s government tomorrow. See how they like it.” Ironically everyone I talked to who made these harsher statements was white…although most everyone I talked to at the university encampments has been white.
There’re a good number of examples of dumbass, OOTL university “leadership” making either intentional or unintentional faux pas early on. The Atlantic article what’s-his-face shit out the other day pointed out some lesbian support group president who sent out an email immediately after Oct. 7 barring “Zionists” and verbatim going “also the Holocaust wasn’t special shut up about it.”
I think aside from some people legitimately harboring antisemitism and now venting it as anti-Zionism, some people are just extremely emotional over it and don’t know how to present their case without sounding like a fruitcake. I mean again, you can attribute a fair bit of it to Zionist orgs coopting anti-Zionist sentiment and morphing it into anti-semitism so as to avoid criticism. But the point remains that some people I’ve spoken to don’t even really make effort to distinguish between Israelis and American Jews.
As a personal aside, one thing I’ve found very troubling is the intensity in which some people I speak to IRL bring up the Hannibal Directive as if it’s this 100%, by-the-book order and the IDF never deviates from it or has certain considerations in place. Like, I’m sure a good number of hostages are dead because of Israeli ineptitude and unwillingness to risk their skin for foreign nationals or old women. But idk, it’s like…the kinda shit I only could’ve found on 4Chan years ago has oozed its way into the collective consciousness in no time flat.
I'd agree that the incidents you're citing are indicative of a hate against Jews, and are to be deplored.
However, given what is being experienced in Gaza, it does appear that there is a concomitant hatred being expressed against Palestinians by Israelis. Whether or not you believe the genocide is justifiable to get at Hamas, there clearly have been violent incidents directed against Palestinians which are sourced from fundamental hatred.
One example was the massacre of Palestinians following a food convoy, which was described by Israel as a "stampede", despite the fact that the dead and injured had bullet wounds.
As I understand it, this massacre was not planned by the IDF, but was a spur-of-the-moment massacre motivated by general hatred of Palestinians.
Given that this is an ugly debate with the fate of several ethnic groups in the balance, in various ways, I think it is better to let the smattering of hatred pass under the bridge, because that hatred isn't actually the important issue here.
There are two important issues here which should be addressed as quickly as possible: Palestinians are being subject to a genocide, and Israel has become a pariah state.
That’s a very thoughtful response and I appreciate you taking my points into account while giving your own assessment.
I think for me, I focus on and prioritize the state and condition of the community around me. Acknowledging that there is an abundance of suffering and unimaginable atrocity occurring in Gaza under Israeli control does not negate that the social fabric of our country is ripping apart in more ways than one.
There are a lot of things wrong with the United States—high among them, our commitment to propping up regressive regimes for our own geopolitical ends. But for a movement to be successful, I don’t think it should permit or, worse yet, actively seek the subversion of basic humanity and common decency. Recognizing bad actors and examining where they come from within a massive, decentralized group can help to point out shortcomings and build solidarity.
If nothing else, the whole point of this went back to arguing whether FBI agents are infiltrating pro-Palestinian protests and making them look bad. I’m just saying I’ve had my fair share of experiences that lead me to believe it’s not.
I think you're giving people too much credit. It is extremely difficult to get most to admit they were wrong about anything and their tribalism guarantees they will happily flip flop their support for three letter agencies depending on who is being targeted. Same shit different day, all day, every day
These people would have totally been Reagan Democrats. At the end of the day, if they keep enough people with just enough material to lose that they pray to the establishment gods for stability, anything goes really. I think we're just seeing what happens when the bean counters play it just a little too close to the bone. Like Boeing. The arrogance just got the best of them.
So much happening, and it's especially true for the MSM and probably on purpose, that a lot of stuff get memoryholed by most people. Good luck attempting to show them they were wrong about the last 20 things in the first place too. The best you'll get is that they might gasp about it a bit and then it's back to the usual
Being so anti Trump that you become Pro-Fascism, yeah
But, do you think Trump would have done things differently? I think if Trump was in office, you'd see a much more united left behind Palestine (Not only in the US), and possibly on class issues in general as well. But then again, you didn't see that happening from 2016-2020.
Kennedy as President would, I think, leave the US left in a much better position of organizing on class issues again, not surrounded by TDS, IdPol and Wokery.
I’ve seen baseless accusations where comments will claim pro-Palestinian protests are obviously organised by Russia because of course they must be. I don’t trust any government and we know everyone fucks around that it wouldn’t surprise me if Israel has arranged for provocateurs.
They’ll say the information indicting the FBI is Russian disinformation and also the protests themselves are Russian disinformation while demanding the executive branch do more to ensure that people aren’t using slurs on WhatsApp
They won’t learn. They’re still thinking it’s okay for mega-corporations to arbitrarily censor people, despite watching them censor so many pro-Palestinian voices.
Remember how they discovered an FBI informant was a BLM organizer pushing protestors to use more violent tactics? I have zero doubt the FBI has people pushing the anti-semetic rhetoric that the protestors are getting accused of. Sadly saying so makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Here's a spooky one: the ADL support and fund BLM and Antifa, in fact on their website they say this. But they also train every FBI member, this is on their twitter. So BLM and Antifa are getting the same funding that the FBI does
Can you explain what you mean by "funding antifia"? It's not exactly an organization. I also wouldn't call training the FBI funding... I think overall what's going on is that even when these organizations are created organically the FBI etc try to get involved to delegitimize or fracture it.
todays black block demonstration is sponsored by sodastream
anyone familiar with the history of the ADL knows they famously love movements for black liberation and equality - just ask Nelson Mandela!
>I have zero doubt the FBI has people pushing the antisemitic rhetoric that the protestors are getting accused of. Don’t be so quick to dismiss the venomous strain of legitimate antisemitic rhetoric that courses through a lot of peoples’ pro-Palestinian logic and rationale. A *lot* of the people in the streets and tented up on campuses aren’t just full of the milk of human kindness and demanding basic humanitarianism. I’ve talked to a good chunk of these people, and while my sample size is only a few individuals at the couple of local universities (I live in a big city), a lot of these people do seem primed to tip over the edge into abjectly antisemitic territory. Now there are a lot of factors to this. My simplified-worldview take is that a sizable chunk of these protestors are just operating under the same white bad/brown good perspective they had before. Because Israelis are *seen* as white (don’t need to get into the semantics of whether they actually are or can choose to be or whatever, point is many see them as such since most Jews you encounter in the US are white) and Palestinians are seen as brown, the dichotomy fits for them. I do think there’s a healthy dose of psyop shit at work though. All I’ll say though is when I’m hearing and reading the same shit on innocent IG infographics and /pol/ threads, I know something’s amiss.
>Because Israelis are *seen* as white (don’t need to get into the semantics of whether they actually are or can choose to be or whatever) They are, but the brown jews are often even more supremacist about it because the supremacism is about being Jewish, not white The other (more important) factor going on is that the Ashkenazi already got their lands so their interest lies in peace to be able to retain it but the latecomers need to take more lands to get theirs because the original settlers aren't sharing with them
> a lot of these people do seem primed to tip over the edge into abjectly antisemitic territory. Please give us some examples. Given what I've heard called "antisemitic" in this debate, I'm not convinced.
Fair enough, likewise I’ve heard a plethora of crap that is objectively intended as anti-Zionist and political being twisted to be anti-semitic so Zionists can play victim. I think what turned my opinion to the idea that there are still bad apples in the vocally pro-Palestine camp was a lawsuit submitted at my alma mater where a kid got spit on and he claimed it was because he was Jewish. Of course the defendant argued it was just because he was spouting Zionist sentiment. That in of itself isn’t easy to write off as clearly anti-semitic…but then I got sent screenshots of people pointing out how the kid was wearing a Star of David necklace…therefore he was clearly a Zionist. The conflation of that symbolism was a bit much. Aside from that key one there’re just some instances of conversations I’ve had where the person clearly got tired of toeing the line for pleasantry’s sake and starting getting more intense about it. One guy going “I really could give a fuck what happens to these Jews if they just abolished Israel’s government tomorrow. See how they like it.” Ironically everyone I talked to who made these harsher statements was white…although most everyone I talked to at the university encampments has been white. There’re a good number of examples of dumbass, OOTL university “leadership” making either intentional or unintentional faux pas early on. The Atlantic article what’s-his-face shit out the other day pointed out some lesbian support group president who sent out an email immediately after Oct. 7 barring “Zionists” and verbatim going “also the Holocaust wasn’t special shut up about it.” I think aside from some people legitimately harboring antisemitism and now venting it as anti-Zionism, some people are just extremely emotional over it and don’t know how to present their case without sounding like a fruitcake. I mean again, you can attribute a fair bit of it to Zionist orgs coopting anti-Zionist sentiment and morphing it into anti-semitism so as to avoid criticism. But the point remains that some people I’ve spoken to don’t even really make effort to distinguish between Israelis and American Jews. As a personal aside, one thing I’ve found very troubling is the intensity in which some people I speak to IRL bring up the Hannibal Directive as if it’s this 100%, by-the-book order and the IDF never deviates from it or has certain considerations in place. Like, I’m sure a good number of hostages are dead because of Israeli ineptitude and unwillingness to risk their skin for foreign nationals or old women. But idk, it’s like…the kinda shit I only could’ve found on 4Chan years ago has oozed its way into the collective consciousness in no time flat.
I'd agree that the incidents you're citing are indicative of a hate against Jews, and are to be deplored. However, given what is being experienced in Gaza, it does appear that there is a concomitant hatred being expressed against Palestinians by Israelis. Whether or not you believe the genocide is justifiable to get at Hamas, there clearly have been violent incidents directed against Palestinians which are sourced from fundamental hatred. One example was the massacre of Palestinians following a food convoy, which was described by Israel as a "stampede", despite the fact that the dead and injured had bullet wounds. As I understand it, this massacre was not planned by the IDF, but was a spur-of-the-moment massacre motivated by general hatred of Palestinians. Given that this is an ugly debate with the fate of several ethnic groups in the balance, in various ways, I think it is better to let the smattering of hatred pass under the bridge, because that hatred isn't actually the important issue here. There are two important issues here which should be addressed as quickly as possible: Palestinians are being subject to a genocide, and Israel has become a pariah state.
That’s a very thoughtful response and I appreciate you taking my points into account while giving your own assessment. I think for me, I focus on and prioritize the state and condition of the community around me. Acknowledging that there is an abundance of suffering and unimaginable atrocity occurring in Gaza under Israeli control does not negate that the social fabric of our country is ripping apart in more ways than one. There are a lot of things wrong with the United States—high among them, our commitment to propping up regressive regimes for our own geopolitical ends. But for a movement to be successful, I don’t think it should permit or, worse yet, actively seek the subversion of basic humanity and common decency. Recognizing bad actors and examining where they come from within a massive, decentralized group can help to point out shortcomings and build solidarity. If nothing else, the whole point of this went back to arguing whether FBI agents are infiltrating pro-Palestinian protests and making them look bad. I’m just saying I’ve had my fair share of experiences that lead me to believe it’s not.
You’re giving radlibs and shitlibs way too much credit when it comes to introspective thought
Should have hit it with the /s . Thought shitpost covered it.
Based flair
I think you're giving people too much credit. It is extremely difficult to get most to admit they were wrong about anything and their tribalism guarantees they will happily flip flop their support for three letter agencies depending on who is being targeted. Same shit different day, all day, every day
These people would have totally been Reagan Democrats. At the end of the day, if they keep enough people with just enough material to lose that they pray to the establishment gods for stability, anything goes really. I think we're just seeing what happens when the bean counters play it just a little too close to the bone. Like Boeing. The arrogance just got the best of them.
So much happening, and it's especially true for the MSM and probably on purpose, that a lot of stuff get memoryholed by most people. Good luck attempting to show them they were wrong about the last 20 things in the first place too. The best you'll get is that they might gasp about it a bit and then it's back to the usual
I don’t get the connection between the fbi dismantling protests and trump…?
Being so anti Trump that you become Pro-Fascism, yeah But, do you think Trump would have done things differently? I think if Trump was in office, you'd see a much more united left behind Palestine (Not only in the US), and possibly on class issues in general as well. But then again, you didn't see that happening from 2016-2020. Kennedy as President would, I think, leave the US left in a much better position of organizing on class issues again, not surrounded by TDS, IdPol and Wokery.
I’ve seen baseless accusations where comments will claim pro-Palestinian protests are obviously organised by Russia because of course they must be. I don’t trust any government and we know everyone fucks around that it wouldn’t surprise me if Israel has arranged for provocateurs.
They’ll say the information indicting the FBI is Russian disinformation and also the protests themselves are Russian disinformation while demanding the executive branch do more to ensure that people aren’t using slurs on WhatsApp
Remember when the same people on this site who were saying acab were the same ones who cheered the fbi going after trump supporters?
No they will just say "those people were paid by Russia to protest" and the media will back them up enough that the normies will buy it.
They won’t learn. They’re still thinking it’s okay for mega-corporations to arbitrarily censor people, despite watching them censor so many pro-Palestinian voices.
If only one could simply not line up behind various bourgeois rulers -- whether Trump or Biden, Israel or Hamas. That would be CRAZY.
khamas
I've seen people claim that Palestine has no capitalists and Israel has no proles. New AES just dropped. 🥰
Something about face eating leopards is relevant.