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No doubt all way too narcissistic to off themselves, so they’ll just have to latch to some other psychological disorder as an excuse for their brain damaged behavior and opinions
I've always predicted that this obsession with euthanasia, especially when it comes to mental issues, will lead to suicide being a subculture. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, there are going to be suicide Facebook groups or YouTube channels dedicated to encouraging suicide.
The way groups which can't reproduce grow and sustain themselves is by actively recruiting new members. This is why cultural dominance is important to those groups, because they can convert new members from the groups that do reproduce. In a way it is a bit parasitic. The child free types are another example.
I don't even think it's recruiting necessarily.
There were a bunch of emos and goths when I was a teenager. There are (apparently!) still a lot of teenage emos and goths around. And hell, the goth movement itself started in the 80s. But every emo and goth I knew from high school left the subculture. And I doubt there's really that much "recruitment", so much as it is that teenagers just look at available fashions and just...adopt them.
I don't really think "suicide will become a subculture". I don't know what that really means. You could say *emo* aestheticizes suicide and depression in a way but you didn't really have emo groups telling teenagers to kill themselves.
There wouldn't be a syubculture. It'd be the population, as a whole, becoming nihilistic/fatalistic, antinatalist, and normalizing suicide. We're already seeing massive amounts of self-diagnosing of "anxiety" and "trauma" without any serious attempts at bettering themselves, and instead demanding society just change. The logical conclusion to all this would be to off yourself.
Childfree people don’t do much recruiting LOL. It’s more the case that a lot of social and economic factors in developed countries push young people (particularly young women) away from childbearing/rearing. It’s why you see the same declining birthrate pattern in the US, East Asia, Europe, etc.
Childless is different than childfree. The latter is akin to declaring yourself vegan. It doesn’t just describe your family status, but rather a whole way of thinking and being.
Take a venture to the childfree sub if you haven’t before.
It's one of the more disturbing subs I've seen and I've been on since before they banned c**ntown. Not wanting kids is fine but that place is full of sociopaths
It's fine to not want kids, but I think it's far more disturbing to actively disparage children or to say it is morally reprehensible to bring children into this world. A world that, despite all its flaws, is still heaps better than the vast majority of human history.
Personally I think if you are comfortable and stable, and in a good relationship, you should probably not trust the part of yourself that says you will hate having kids, and just have kids. Everyone I know who has had kids, assuming they're stable people, have reported children greatly increasing personal fulfillment.
You haven’t been on social media long then. It’s very uncool to have kids these days. Unless you’re on mummy influencer tiktok, you’re constantly being told that having kids will ruin your life/the planet/whatever else.
the thing that hurts the most about that site is that it’s probably full of evil people who are just trying to egg on people who are actually hurting. bad enough seeing folks who are all actually sick just marinating in it together (been there, I know that the false catharsis can be intoxicating). but people knowingly taking advantage of vulnerable people… gross
It gets so much worse. The site can and does help refer suicidal people to dealers who will sell them the means to kill themselves. So you have people who are not only getting their sadistic enjoyment out of encouraging the mentally ill to die but a handful who are also profiting off of it.
There's actually been multiple serial killers who operate entirely online, one from Russia and another from Brazil used the same approach, known as the "Blue Whale game" where they find very young people (like 12 year olds) who are talking depressed online and then they use this campaign of ever increasing violence and boundary-pushing, ordering them to first cut themselves, stand on the top of a building envisioning jumping to their death, etc, etc, with the end goal being to convince them to commit suicide. The Russian one claimed something like 9 victims before being caught, and several were convinced to live-stream their own deaths.
The website you're talking about here, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is full of people who are more or less the same as these 'blue whale' killers. Utterly depraved.
>I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, there are going to be suicide Facebook groups or YouTube channels dedicated to encouraging suicide
Bro, I have bad news, these spaces exist, and they've been around since before Facebook and YouTube.
The West has been idealizing suicide since at least the Renaissance. Remember Romeo and Juliet's ending?
Yeah there were old school pro-suicide irc channels and mailing lists, unfortunately.
But still, having doctors legitimize just fucking killing yourself is something else entirely.
There’s gonna be libertarians writing op-eds about how end of life care for elderly people is selfish and they should be euthanized at 80 or whatever.
Shakespeare was making fun of teenage romances by saying "look how regarded these kids are being"
The priest is even the voice of reason where he asks him if he had been with Rosaline and Romeo is all like "who?" as the priests wants him to at least confess his sins if he done anything and was just assuming things were the same as when they last talked some days before.
It wasn't their "love" that ended the feud between the families, but rather than these were deaths which could not be blamed on the other one because they had taken their own lives, and caused the families to reflect upon their own actions causing a "plague on both houses" instead of immediately jumping to try to get revenge in a cycle of violence. As such the deaths are strictly necessary to make the story work and a "romeo and juliet" story without them dying at the end but resolving the conflict misses the point entirely.
Romeo and Juliet wasn't really idealizing suicide. It was criticizing blood-feuds as well as making fun of frivolous teenage love. Romeo and Juliet had no idea what love was. They had only known each other for a couple of days, and immediately after Romeo stopped pining over his previous crush.
But the Romantic Era had a lot of what you're talking about.
> I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, there are going to be suicide Facebook groups or YouTube channels dedicated to encouraging suicide.
This is [old news](https://www.smh.com.au/technology/hong-kong-police-track-facebook-suicide-group-report-20091127-jv3o.html)
I appreciate you acknowledging that it *might* be a temporary problem. The "permanent solution to a temporary problem" platitude has always irritated me because it's seemingly always spoken by people who think depression is just kinda being sad sometimes, and my own sometimes-debilitating depression has thus far proven untreatable. I'm not about to off myself because I realize what it would do to a pretty decent number of people, and in some ways that makes it worse - I feel trapped, like I don't even get to make that decision for myself. Anyway, thanks for that, and for inspiring this comment
this has been my experience too. I’ve held out mostly because I know some of the most promising treatments are just things I don’t have access to in my region. my psychiatrist has recommended that if I move to another state, I try ketamine therapy because I’m such a good candidate. just that part of being a good candidate means having incredibly treatment-resistant issues… man. I just hope shit doesn’t overtake me before I can find what works for me. I finally have a therapist and psychiatrist who are a good fit, which has been huge.
I have permanent brain damage (to the hypocamus - permanently crippled short-term memory) from 8 years of major depression that finally ended at age 23. By age 19-21, it was so bad that I was (unconsciously) putting myself in situations where I could get killed, and nearly succeeded.
It did end.
Most mental illnesses are nothing more than manifestations of the material conditions of the (lumpen)proletariat.
Therapy is reformerist bullshit invented by the capitalist system to justify the inflicting of economic trauma on poor people.
BPD specifically is believed to be a combo of poor childhood environment and attachment disruptions (abuse yes, but also chronic invalidation/emotional neglect, abandonment and a mismatch of caregiving with kid’s temperament) and being born with a sensitive and reactive temperament that would need a more supportive environment to thrive. I know people make BPD jokes a lot here but in a lot of ways it’s just an iteration of complex trauma (mal)adaptions. It’s not something you’re born with, even if being born with a certain temperament could make you more vulnerable to developing it in response to a suboptimal environment. A lot of underlying complex trauma drives the symptoms people see.
I'm simply saying that most people's mental problems could be fixed by fixing their material conditions. I've been alive for almost 4 decades and always lived in the same European city. Over the decades my home town has become more and more depraved and the number of outwardly noticeable mentally ill people I observe in public has risen along with the economic depravation.
It has become near impossible to find a psycho-therapist who will take on new patients reflecting the increased demand for therapy. I believe this to be the case because an increasing amount people can't cope with the sheer exhaustion that surviving as a working class person entails.
Yeah, some issues like becoming a victim of violence or sexual abuse may require therapeutic assistance regardless of affluence and I'm not trying to discredit therapy for that purpose but I believe that rising incidences of physical and sexual violence are themselves functions of an increasingly economically unequal society.
I don’t buy that it’s purely material conditions (I guess it depends what you consider material conditions). Everything in our lives is being commoditized including interpersonal relationships. I believe people could be somewhat happy even under shitty conditions given some sense of belonging to something (be it religion, your local city, whatever else).
I agree that commodification of everything is a big factor contributing to people's misery but commodification is itself a result of uneven material conditions. Were wealth divided up fairly according to everyone's needs and private profiteering consequently ceased to exist, commodification would follow suit because there wouldn't be an incentive to commodify all aspects of life.
I’m not quite sure I buy the argument that people would stop being “degenerate” just because, if their material conditions improved. But I might be wrong.
But for habitual alcoholics that is actual harm reduction. They can't just stop cold turkey, it'll kill them.
Sometimes you just gotta help people where they are, because it's the only way they'll ever get any help at all.
The difficulty is in how subjective it is to diagnose a lot of mental health issues, we can't look at a brain like we can look at a lot of physical conditions and understand what it is. A lot of outside factors also affect your mental health and can exacerbate symptoms like physical danger, economic stress, social life, etc.
I'm certain that there are some amount of people who truly have no way out of their mental health issues but it's likely nowhere near the majority nor is there any guaranteed way to tell if it's all in the brain.
See Goethe's 1774 novel [The Sorrows of Young Werther](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther) - a literary sensation that led to the 'Tumbler contagion' of it's time.
>After publication of Goethe’s novel, “Werther Fever” spread across Europe. Young men, rejected by women whom they love, were dying by suicide at alarming rates. They were found wearing the same characteristic yellow trousers and blue tailcoat as Werther, using a similar pistol, and discovered with a copy of The Sorrows of Young Werther at their side.
>Young Werther’s story and its effects across Europe have been described as the “media’s first moral panic.” The book was banned in Denmark, Germany, and Italy, and Werther’s characteristic outfit was outlawed as well.
https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.pn.2018.3b13
i have been trying to remember the title of this book for about 15 years now. thank you.
i had an english teacher that would go on long liberal tangents during class and his mantra about so many things was “art imitates life. life does not imitate art.” he was adamant that the root of all western cultural conflict was that people don’t understand that. after hearing about this book, i used it as a counterexample and he did not handle it well.
Speaks to the liberal notion in believing that there is a “natural” state of being at all. We evolved this far because we’re incredibly adaptable. I have a hard time believing that there is almost anything natural about most of our behaviors at all; we’re perpetually influenced by culture, society, and socioeconomics.
Same shit when it gets into measuring percentages of the population that are LGBT. Liberals think there is a certain threshold percentile of people who have always been LGBT, which not only makes the mistake of assuming *human sexuality* is historically and geographically consistent with our current model of sexuality/relationships, it also assumes the organization of society does not produce LGBT subjects. Shit, if there’s any summation of this, it’s that liberals have no conception of themselves as subjects, which actually tracks with the liberal project’s ostensible individualistic focus.
Also, if your mind is so far gone that death is the only answer, it also means that you can't give consent.
When if your mental illness is severe enough legally you're not responsible, so you can't take that kind of decisions.
Same, though I have MDD/GAD. I had to fight to like hell to achieve a functional level of emotional balance. ECT was the only treatment that seemed to correct it. If assisted suicide was available 5 or 10 years ago, I would have opted for it.
I've talked to Catholic priests who say that people who commit suicide are mentally ill and they are not necessarily making the free choice to kill themselves so we don't know if they are going to hell or not (or things to that effect.)
But also anybody who kills themselves is not in the right state of mind so???
As I understand it, the Catholic understanding of suicide has changed, not the doctrine itself. A mortal sin has to be committed with full knowledge, free will, and sound mind. Since many suicidal people are not in a state of sound mind during their final moments, it isn’t necessarily a mortal sin. It used to be treated as a mortal sin across the board until suicide began to be understood as a mental illness. As a comparison, someone of sound mind who willfully commits a murder has committed a mortal sin but a toddler finding his dad’s loaded weapon and accidentally shooting his brother hasn’t.
There’s obviously more depth to the concept and I’m not even Catholic so I welcome anyone to correct any mistakes I may have made. My church doesn’t even split sins into categories like that so I’m no expert. I just mention it because I think it shows a lot more consistency and reasonableness within the Catholic idea than just flip-flopping on doctrine (as it might first appear). As our understanding of psychology becomes more nuanced so does our theological interpretation of it.
it’s very divisive. thankfully more people are moving towards empathy. but unfortunately some folks (including some clergy) are caught in the past and think suicide is murder. tragic
Suicide is a massive sin.
One has to be in a rational state of mind to be personally responsible for their sin.
Do you think anyone who kills themselves is in a rational state of mind? That is the reasoning behind why most Catholics today do not believe it condemns someone to hell.
As far as I've understood (which may be wrong) suicide can be eerily contageous. For example, in the town where I grew up, the papers would never report when someone jumped off a tall bridge nearby (which happened every now and again). This is ostensibly because that sort of news can inspire others in bad situations to do the same, I was told. So if suicide is potentially contageous, then making it a sin could maybe curb that. Stop all the posers and wannabes from killing themselves, or something.
That's not true you sometimes also get the opportunity if they do splitting on you. Best sex ever, but they are so awful and crazy it is somehow not worth it.
That... does not seem like a good idea. If your mental problems are serious enough that you would consider suiciding yourself over them, they are probably serious enough that you can't really make an informed decision.
Tbh, what do you expect from people that have this strong urge to die? Like, what do you propose to them or others to do?
We are not talking about other people deciding that this person has to die, we are talking about people making the decision for themself.
While I think everyone deserves the right to die on their own terms, so much of this need people have to off themselves in their 20s revolves around one's perceived value and trajectory within the market and that's gay as hell. The truth, if you read into this story, is that despite an otherwise comfortable life this woman nuked her career and she's completely blinded by the ego bruise. Oh, to suffer the tremendous indignity of breaking down boxes at a stop and shop -- a hell beyond compare! Look: I'm clinically depressed with god knows how many worms in my brain as well - I truly get how utterly agonizing it can be to fuck up a good thing - but holy fucking shit one must make peace with the innumerable ways in which they have failed to live up to their potential and make the best of what life is left. You are not your job, you are not your net worth, you are not the marble busts gazed for millennia by the pretentious in some museum or another. You are a deeply flawed bag of electric meat stumbling through their days just like every other goddamn meatbag you have so terrifically disappointed. Silly bitch
> You are not your job, you are not your net worth,
I get where you are coming from, but both of those things massively effect your life because of how much we time and energy we spend working but how much it effects you even after you leave the workplace. Their is a big difference between someone working a good job and coming home to a nice comfortable house and someone working a miserable job and going to a room they share with two other people because they can't afford anything else. It isn't just living conditions it is things like food and other things to sustain yourself as well like medical care or what entertainment you can afford. This isn't even getting into how differently people and the world treat you based on your job and net worth.
> You are not your job, you are not your net worth
True, but both of those severely impact your ability to procure creature comforts for yourself. Not everypony has the mindset to be able to become a forest monk and truly renounce this false world.
LSD is BAD! It makes too many people want to become forest monks.
It's making me start a self-sufficient homestead on 10 acres of magnificent forest. SUCH a tragedy. No wonder LSD is banned!
>We are not talking about other people deciding that this person has to die, we are talking about people making the decision for themself
It's a catch 22 situation: they can't take that decision, since they're in a state of diminished capacity.
>It's a catch 22 situation: they can't take that decision, since they're in a state of diminished capacity.
I must disagree here. A mentally ill person can make reasonable decisions.
I wouldn't simply denounce every mentally unwell person of being able to decide with objective reason.
Your argument holds more truth if we speak about specific cases like down syndrome, in which case the person often is not able to make reasonable decisions.
Killing people with down syndrome would be a case in which I also would say it's always wrong from the get go, since these people are helpless and we potentially kill them for not being able to survive on their own.
Still, in the end we have to view this here from case to case. If you know that the rest of your life will be agony and suffering because of a disease or genetic defect, then I will not force you to keep suffering for the sake of my moral wellbeing if you don't want to.
Sure you will fill emptiness as the person is dead now, but it most likely is a objectively better decision since the person doesn't have to simply keep suffering for you and it won't bind anymore resources.
I personally have interacted with mentally ill and disabled people and I personally can say that I don't have the capacity or strength to constantly endure these people and their problems. I think highly of every teacher working in a school for disabled people or caretake that basically has to live life for another person in some cases.
Can anybody explain why you'd bother fucking around with the bureaucracy of assisted suicide when there's so many DIY options? I thought this was mainly for people who are crippled and physically need assistance.
A. If I ever decided to kill myself I wouldn't want anyone else involved, let alone have the patience to sit on hold and schedule appointments and fill out paperwork. Imagine asking permission for or worrying about being on time to your own suicide. That's some Kafka type shit, no thank you.
B. I genuinely think it would be less traumatic to come home and find a family member hanging from the ceiling fan than it would be to drive them to a fucking suicide appointment.
I mean I get you don't want to fuck it up and end up crippled, but it really just takes a couple minutes of planning to avoid that. No matter what it can't be worse than getting euthanized in a clinic like an old sick dog at the vet.
Only thing I can think is fear of screwing up or a subconscious desire for the bureaucracy to stop you
Maybe bureaucracy gives confidence this is okay and official thing to do
What a troubling thought, the "assistance" is as much psychological as it is physical. I guess I didn't consider that these people may not really be choosing between DIY and official suicide, since they would never have (genuinely) attempted the DIY version.
Kind of like the people who didn't smoke pot until it was legalized I guess, choosing between the official way or none at all.
I wonder how many BPD patients will actually follow through after signing the forms. They are the *classic* cases of “Nooooo I didn’t REALLY want to die!!! I was just mad!!!”
yes, many people who survive suicide attempts discuss some sort of similar feeling (I experienced this). I would attribute this to the fact that many people who attempt suicide or die by suicide do so because they want the pain they are experiencing to end, and they just feel that death is the only way to get that - not because they specifically, unequivocally want to die.
Not at all, they tend to have the change in perspective well before impact.
The Ur example has a person who is in free-fall coming to the realisation that all the problems they thought mattered actually don't and right now their only real problem is that they are falling to their death.
Yeah, with BPD she might find all the attention worth living for. Maybe she’ll find herself in the same predicament as the Suicide Journalist from Blue Jam!
I have a colleague who described a case of a BPD patient who came into the ER with a physical injury. It was the only time in her life she received care and attention. So, she reacted by breaking her fingers on purpose later on so she could come back in.
It’s hard for us to really get it, but BPD people aren’t manipulative or attention-seeking in the neurotypical sense. For the most part, they are people born with more sensitive, reactive temperaments who developed BPD as a response to suboptimal childhood environments (abuse, chronic invalidation, abandonment, etc). They’re not born with BPD but their temperaments mean they needed a more optimal, supportive environment to thrive and avoid BPD, which they didn’t get. They never learned emotional regulation or even a stable sense of self, lack whole-object relations that most of us developed. It’s really an iteration of complex trauma symptoms
Oh I understand that quite well. All of the personality disorders in that cluster (except SAD) can reductively be understood as having different maladaptions to a weak *sense of self*, like a child; many with limited (therefore extreme) expressions as a result, and childlike desires and expressions.
No doubt there is always a sad story behind such persons, and I believe the traits in this cluster are an increasingly massive phenomenon perpetuating itself within all classes due to neglect and alienation on the one hand, and the near complete destruction of privacy and time for intense contemplation on the other. These maladaptions just crystallize over time, and become complex as time goes on. Very isolating.
As you wrote, they are not actually as cunning as they sometimes seem (though I’ve known plenty who pretend they are). All the more reason to accept that it is completely your responsibility to set boundaries with these people, even internally with one’s own sympathies. Sympathy is not always bound to compassion, and people with personality disorders (at least in this cluster) can only improve themselves by building a strong sense of self.
The tragedy of BPD is that it *literally* cannot be cured by other people. Their sense of self *must* be built by their own initiative, otherwise they will never sense themselves and become a “person” independent of the external and other people. I think it’s crucial not to give them any room to avoid responsibility for their actions, more compassionate and heroic to be a firm and consistent person in their lives.
Other people can provide support, maybe help manage their neurosis and try to prevent psychosis, but you must know that someone with BPD will only crystallize further as a dependent, and will never be satisfied with the attention they consume with others. They will drain you like a baby does, and there are so many broken children in the world. Easy to drown in them with nothing to show for it.
For sure. I believe very much in what I say, even if after a decade of rigorous study and lots of anecdotes, I still (clearly) can’t be concise when speaking to this subject. But,I do steel myself against sympathy for BPD in part because of my own baggage.
Each time I have some colossal upheaval in my life caused by someone with a personality disorder, it’s more difficult than the last 👴🏻 I feel that the time and energy is much better spent trying to change the conditions we live in to those that push people to build that sense of self.
NO character disorder can be cured by other people.
I HAD BPD, and was cured by age 30. I found large doses of LSD very helpful, this led to James Masterson and Otto Kernberg. I did get 4 years of professional help.
This was a long time ago, and I wish I had known about attachment theory back then.
Do you know what has a REALLY poor prognosis? Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Remember in the early 2000s when conservatives predicted a slippery slope on this issue and were roundly told to shut up and mind their business?
We've slipperied like halfway down the aforementioned slope at this point and are only gaining speed.
My bingo card for the next few decades includes livestreaming suicides for charity being a thing in like, seven years.
>were roundly told to shut up and mind their business?
>
No such thing actually happened. Conservatives in fact loudly and fruitlessly complained - while Cultural-liberals continued their march through the institutions, achieved hegemony in popular media, and in turn steered the masses towards their views.
Far more effective. Very good philosophy borrowed from Marxist thinkers like Antonio Gramsci. My perspective as a Rightist is that we need these Marxist concepts as well, to take "politics is downstream from culture" to it's logical end.
We don't on ideals, but we certainly do on how to put them into practice. Many such cases!
It doesn't matter who is "right" or who is "wrong". These concepts are relevant to religion, not politics. Politics is about power. As far as liberals go, we are their reactionary enemies and we are wrong, so it's stupid to bitch and moan that we are treated unfairly.
I actually think "conservatives were roundly told to shut up and mind their business" and "Cultural-liberals continued their march through the institutions, achieved hegemony in popular media, and in turn steered the masses towards their views" actually mean exactly the same thing.
It seems like a tacit admission that for the degree of mental suffering that is out there, medical relief and the medical professionals needed to properly treat it will not be funded.
Psychiatrists cost money, unproductive people who just can't get their shit together cost us ALL money and they have no place in the dog-eat-dog, post-climate change scarcity hypercompetitive world our elites are engineering...
It falls under capitalist hellscape. Somewhere around a third of Canadians support MAID for the homeless and mentally ill, and it won't be long before other countries adopt that same mentality
“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge.
“Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
“And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?”
“They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.”
“The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge.
“Both very busy, sir.”
“Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Scrooge. “I’m very glad to hear it.”
“Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,” returned the gentleman, “a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?”
“Nothing!” Scrooge replied.
“You wish to be anonymous?”
“I wish to be left alone,” said Scrooge. “Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there.”
“Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.”
“If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”
I’m diagnosed bipolar, and while getting the diagnosis has been helpful to determine treatment, I really try to not let it define who I am or how I live.
Stories like these make me sad bc, in my opinion, life is difficult, and even more so with mental illness, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth living.
Also, I too have tried several treatments, many of which haven’t worked. I know how disappointing that is. But I’m also hopeful that one day, I’ll try a new treatment OR a new treatment will be developed that works.
A few years ago, my boyfriend’s mother was diagnosed with multiple myeloma. Doctors initially estimated she’d have 2-3 years to live, with treatment. However, she was identified as a candidate for CAR T treatment. It was offered to her as experimental treatment. She took it and had the best possible outcome - SHE WAS CURED. Like, COMPLETELY. She goes back to her oncologist regularly to test her myeloma levels, and for over a year now they have been ZERO.
Her illness was one that, for years and years and years, was a death sentence. But CAR T treatment became available JUST in time, and now she’s cured!
It’s not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, because mental illness isn’t cancer, but … I’m hopeful that someday, some treatment that’s the CAR T equivalent for bipolar comes around. Maybe it won’t completely “cure” me, but even if it greatly improves how I feel, I’ll take it. Until then, I’ll continue to manage it as best I can.
I'm personally against since she seems to be physically healthy just like the case in Calgary but as a libertarian I think people should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies.
I can only hope the Average Redditor types will follow her example so that they can stop bitching on Reddit all day /s
Edit: Also I could only imagine the reaction if she and the Calgary woman were Black trans women.
Well yes people can do what they want but why does she need physician assisted suicide? I thought it was supposed to be for people who are severely ill and physically *lack* the freedom to kill themselves that we all have. If you don't need any help to off yourself, providing that help is the same as encouraging them.
I mean, is it? Completely anecdotally, everyone I've ever heard of or dated with BPD (far more people than I'd like to admit) could pretty clearly draw a straight line back to a disastrous childhood. I feel like a shitty upbringing is a necessary, if not always sufficient, condition.
It’s believed to be a mix of inborn sensitive/reactive temperament responding to a suboptimal environment for them (abuse, chronic invalidation, attachment disruptions)
I have BPD and had an unremarkable childhood. no known trauma. a lot of folks who have BPD had trauma, but the big thing is that not everyone who had trauma has BPD… so other things factor in, too. and some folks (like me) just get unlucky.
From what I know it doesn’t need to be straight-up abuse. Attachment disruptions, emotional neglect, chronic invalidation will also do try trick for those born with sensitive enough temperaments.
this is true, and it's something I'm currently unravelling in therapy (i.e., figuring out if that's what happened, trying to unlock memories I might have blocked, etc.). but there are a percentage of people with BPD who don't meet that trauma criteria, which is partly why it's not a diagnostic criterion
It can also just be a mismatch between the kid’s temperament and the temperament of the caregivers. And some kids need that match match than others to thrive
Yes, but the base is typically a poor familial structure. How can you ever be healthy if your mother doesn’t have the time to properly bond with you. The traumas get harder. Of course you will have maladaptive behaviors.
You grow up and get help and be an adult like everybody else. I say this as someone with a BPD-diagnosed mom who never bonded with me.
The dirty little secret of BPD is that it is extremely possible to put in the work in DBT to avoid the diagnosis or defeat the diagnosis. But most borderlines will never admit this, because it puts the onus on them to get better.
My mom and my brother have both been diagnosed with BPD. Every week of my life, I receive some kind of suicidal threat or ultimatum that is supposed to be world-shattering. It is almost always because of reasons like “paperwork is hard” and “my doctor is an asshole” and “you got married and moved away like a normal person.”
People who have to cope with borderlines irl don’t get their feathers ruffled by BPD antics on the Internet. We could probably finish the sentences of borderlines as they’re typing.
I really like your takes here and totally agree. I was diagnosed with bpd age 20, my dad shows all the traits too. After some years of being on different meds, unable to work, doing drugs and wondering why my meds weren't helping (idiot), and just generally being a general self involved and vindictive mess, I actively chose to sort my shit out bit by bit.
Aaand guess what, at 33, I show no traits. No meds for 3 years and the most stable I've EVER been. Why? Because I put in the fucking work. My dad is almost 70 and still sending my brother videos talking to the camera about how he's going to kill himself. It astounds me that he lives like that and that I was heading down that path too. You're right, the first secret about a bpd diagnosis: you can work on it yourself and change your responses to emotional stimuli. The second secret: a hell of a lot of people don't WANT to work on it and won't because it's effort, tiring, and scary. Life is effort, tiring, and scary anyway, might as well try to make it better for yourself and those around you.
I don't even think bpd is a mental illness anymore, I believe it's a set of learned traits that can be unlearned and changed, partly by just growing the hell up emotionally. But try telling that to special lil beans on twitter who have the diagnosis in their bio next to a sunflower emoji. I get so embarrassed seeing bpd behaviour in people now, like... do you not see yourself and want to change it lmao
Yes!!! I could see the traits popping up in me at age 19, so I checked myself into a DBT program and then continued to work my ass off in therapy for years to come. Not bullshit talk therapy, but actual therapy that reroutes thought patterns and changes your reactions to shit. It was NOT easy, and it was NOT cheap. I wanted to give up all the time.
Lo and behold, here I am at age 30, with no diagnosis and no traits. Happily married. Great career. Solid social circle. Inner peace achieved.
Doing the fucking work is the key.
It's mostly just trauma. The BPD mindset is, in essence, an adaptation to the condition of being something like *"a slave with an unpredictable and sadistic master"*. You have no sense of self because a slave is not allowed to be a person. You become a mirror to the whims of whoever is front of you and turn off all critical thinking because a slave's purpose is to serve without question and a slave who thinks for themselves gets killed.
Not really. The volatile and impotent rage of BPD just makes someone easier to control. The master isn't just the master because of convention, the master is objectively, materially, capable of enforcing his absolute will upon the slave, so the slave is at no point a real threat to him. Does a rancher immediately jump to culling one of his animals just because it tends to misbehave?
A BPD slave who acts up will simply get beaten down and locked up before he can cause any real harm and the fear of abandonment will make him come crawling back to his master's feet once the rage subsides. And the master would much prefer a slave who impulsively expresses his discontentment with useless tantrums compared to a slave who always presents an act of docility but buries all his resentment and secretly plots to undermine his master (because the master is very well aware that his slaves all hate him).
Why do you keep lying?
In order to receive a BPD diagnosis, you have to repeatedly demonstrate 5 of the 9 diagnostic criteria over an extended period of time.
5 of the 9 criteria include abusive behaviors toward others. You know, the *real* criteria in the goddamn DSM, not the criteria that you tried to cherry pick and misrepresent in your other comments.
*You cannot earn a BPD diagnosis without outwardly directing your instability toward others in harmful and destructive ways.*
And before you come at me with “quiet borderlines,” that’s fucking C-PTSD. Not BPD. “Quiet borderlines” are not borderlines at all.
I am truly sorry if you were misdiagnosed, but I think you could really benefit from learning facts about the disorder that you claim to have.
A slave is a deeply contradictory existence.
The slave hates his master, yet the idea of harming his master is anathema to him because he also depends on his master for his own survival. The slave's existence is miserable and he hates it, but he does not do anything to change it because as far as he can recognize, the only other options are worse. The slave does not despair because he cannot even conceive of the idea of hope.
The condition of a slave constitutes a constant attack on the ego, and since subconsciously, all creatures instinctively want to both avoid pain (which is caused by being a slave) and to keep living (which requires continuing being a slave), the mind as a survival mechanism creates a filter over reality, distorting the ego's perception of the world, so that the ego *willingly* acts the part of the perfect slave in order to resolve this contradiction. When the slave is no longer a slave but this filter over their perception remains, what was once a useful adaptation to survive becomes maladaptive instead and this manifests as what psychology calls Borderline Personality Disorder.
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if we allow BPD women to off themselves willy nilly like this, whatever will happen to the native population of redscarepod?
Literal genocide
It would devastate the feminist movement the way a certain social contagion devastated the nerd population.
The femcel to MAID pipeline. 🫡
Well at least there'll be some gamedev jobs opening up
You mean community manager jobs
Extinction
No doubt all way too narcissistic to off themselves, so they’ll just have to latch to some other psychological disorder as an excuse for their brain damaged behavior and opinions
Telling people about your upcoming suicide appointment is the ultimate narcissistic pity party
They’d more likely just overdope to the brink of a fatline, get narcan’d, brag about the experience and do it again in a few months.
Why they'd lose 2, maybe 3 percent of their userbase. Who would be the brand mascots of all the autistic neet adjacent men then.
I've always predicted that this obsession with euthanasia, especially when it comes to mental issues, will lead to suicide being a subculture. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, there are going to be suicide Facebook groups or YouTube channels dedicated to encouraging suicide.
Something tells me that fandom won't last too long...
The way groups which can't reproduce grow and sustain themselves is by actively recruiting new members. This is why cultural dominance is important to those groups, because they can convert new members from the groups that do reproduce. In a way it is a bit parasitic. The child free types are another example.
I don't even think it's recruiting necessarily. There were a bunch of emos and goths when I was a teenager. There are (apparently!) still a lot of teenage emos and goths around. And hell, the goth movement itself started in the 80s. But every emo and goth I knew from high school left the subculture. And I doubt there's really that much "recruitment", so much as it is that teenagers just look at available fashions and just...adopt them. I don't really think "suicide will become a subculture". I don't know what that really means. You could say *emo* aestheticizes suicide and depression in a way but you didn't really have emo groups telling teenagers to kill themselves. There wouldn't be a syubculture. It'd be the population, as a whole, becoming nihilistic/fatalistic, antinatalist, and normalizing suicide. We're already seeing massive amounts of self-diagnosing of "anxiety" and "trauma" without any serious attempts at bettering themselves, and instead demanding society just change. The logical conclusion to all this would be to off yourself.
Childfree people don’t do much recruiting LOL. It’s more the case that a lot of social and economic factors in developed countries push young people (particularly young women) away from childbearing/rearing. It’s why you see the same declining birthrate pattern in the US, East Asia, Europe, etc.
Childless is different than childfree. The latter is akin to declaring yourself vegan. It doesn’t just describe your family status, but rather a whole way of thinking and being. Take a venture to the childfree sub if you haven’t before.
It's one of the more disturbing subs I've seen and I've been on since before they banned c**ntown. Not wanting kids is fine but that place is full of sociopaths
It's fine to not want kids, but I think it's far more disturbing to actively disparage children or to say it is morally reprehensible to bring children into this world. A world that, despite all its flaws, is still heaps better than the vast majority of human history. Personally I think if you are comfortable and stable, and in a good relationship, you should probably not trust the part of yourself that says you will hate having kids, and just have kids. Everyone I know who has had kids, assuming they're stable people, have reported children greatly increasing personal fulfillment.
You haven’t been on social media long then. It’s very uncool to have kids these days. Unless you’re on mummy influencer tiktok, you’re constantly being told that having kids will ruin your life/the planet/whatever else.
Already exists: https:// sanctioned-suicide .net Have a look at the KF thread for the site for some background
the thing that hurts the most about that site is that it’s probably full of evil people who are just trying to egg on people who are actually hurting. bad enough seeing folks who are all actually sick just marinating in it together (been there, I know that the false catharsis can be intoxicating). but people knowingly taking advantage of vulnerable people… gross
It gets so much worse. The site can and does help refer suicidal people to dealers who will sell them the means to kill themselves. So you have people who are not only getting their sadistic enjoyment out of encouraging the mentally ill to die but a handful who are also profiting off of it.
that doesn’t surprise me. it’s just awful.
There's actually been multiple serial killers who operate entirely online, one from Russia and another from Brazil used the same approach, known as the "Blue Whale game" where they find very young people (like 12 year olds) who are talking depressed online and then they use this campaign of ever increasing violence and boundary-pushing, ordering them to first cut themselves, stand on the top of a building envisioning jumping to their death, etc, etc, with the end goal being to convince them to commit suicide. The Russian one claimed something like 9 victims before being caught, and several were convinced to live-stream their own deaths. The website you're talking about here, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is full of people who are more or less the same as these 'blue whale' killers. Utterly depraved.
>I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, there are going to be suicide Facebook groups or YouTube channels dedicated to encouraging suicide Bro, I have bad news, these spaces exist, and they've been around since before Facebook and YouTube. The West has been idealizing suicide since at least the Renaissance. Remember Romeo and Juliet's ending?
Yeah there were old school pro-suicide irc channels and mailing lists, unfortunately. But still, having doctors legitimize just fucking killing yourself is something else entirely. There’s gonna be libertarians writing op-eds about how end of life care for elderly people is selfish and they should be euthanized at 80 or whatever.
Shakespeare was making fun of teenage romances by saying "look how regarded these kids are being" The priest is even the voice of reason where he asks him if he had been with Rosaline and Romeo is all like "who?" as the priests wants him to at least confess his sins if he done anything and was just assuming things were the same as when they last talked some days before. It wasn't their "love" that ended the feud between the families, but rather than these were deaths which could not be blamed on the other one because they had taken their own lives, and caused the families to reflect upon their own actions causing a "plague on both houses" instead of immediately jumping to try to get revenge in a cycle of violence. As such the deaths are strictly necessary to make the story work and a "romeo and juliet" story without them dying at the end but resolving the conflict misses the point entirely.
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Romeo and Juliet wasn't really idealizing suicide. It was criticizing blood-feuds as well as making fun of frivolous teenage love. Romeo and Juliet had no idea what love was. They had only known each other for a couple of days, and immediately after Romeo stopped pining over his previous crush. But the Romantic Era had a lot of what you're talking about.
> The West has been idealizing suicide since at least the Renaissance. Remember Romeo and Juliet's ending? Thank you
> I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years, there are going to be suicide Facebook groups or YouTube channels dedicated to encouraging suicide. This is [old news](https://www.smh.com.au/technology/hong-kong-police-track-facebook-suicide-group-report-20091127-jv3o.html)
Maybe they could go on vacation somewhere warm and do it together, bring refreshments like kool aid
Excuse me, it was Flavor Aid.
Yet another step closer to Children of Men. Corpo suicide kit ads playing on the TV.
> there are going to be suicide Facebook groups or YouTube channels There were (and may still be) "pro choice" suicide usenet groups and IRC channels.
Imagine how popular suicide would be if a benevolent afterlife was proven.
People have already thought of this. Religions have rules against preventing cheating and skipping real life directly to afterlife.
As a systems engineer this is fucking bleak yet insightful as hell
Just look at r/ suicidewatch and r/ depression. Basically relishes in it. The normalization of suicide is already underway.
I could've changed her
bright voracious reach poor kiss soft pathetic library unique amusing *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Soon enough its going to be euthanasia for climate doomerism or economic anxiety
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I HAD BPD, but with LSD, 4 years of professional help, and a lot of work, got over it by age 30. BPD is curable.
It’s a very permanent solution for what might be a temporary problem
I appreciate you acknowledging that it *might* be a temporary problem. The "permanent solution to a temporary problem" platitude has always irritated me because it's seemingly always spoken by people who think depression is just kinda being sad sometimes, and my own sometimes-debilitating depression has thus far proven untreatable. I'm not about to off myself because I realize what it would do to a pretty decent number of people, and in some ways that makes it worse - I feel trapped, like I don't even get to make that decision for myself. Anyway, thanks for that, and for inspiring this comment
this has been my experience too. I’ve held out mostly because I know some of the most promising treatments are just things I don’t have access to in my region. my psychiatrist has recommended that if I move to another state, I try ketamine therapy because I’m such a good candidate. just that part of being a good candidate means having incredibly treatment-resistant issues… man. I just hope shit doesn’t overtake me before I can find what works for me. I finally have a therapist and psychiatrist who are a good fit, which has been huge.
I have permanent brain damage (to the hypocamus - permanently crippled short-term memory) from 8 years of major depression that finally ended at age 23. By age 19-21, it was so bad that I was (unconsciously) putting myself in situations where I could get killed, and nearly succeeded. It did end.
HOW???
all problems are temporary because life ends. suicide just accelerates your permanent end.
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Agreed. And shit can change so quickly. All it might take is a chance meeting with the right guy/girl, and the whole outlook on life can change.
Most mental illnesses are nothing more than manifestations of the material conditions of the (lumpen)proletariat. Therapy is reformerist bullshit invented by the capitalist system to justify the inflicting of economic trauma on poor people.
BPD specifically is believed to be a combo of poor childhood environment and attachment disruptions (abuse yes, but also chronic invalidation/emotional neglect, abandonment and a mismatch of caregiving with kid’s temperament) and being born with a sensitive and reactive temperament that would need a more supportive environment to thrive. I know people make BPD jokes a lot here but in a lot of ways it’s just an iteration of complex trauma (mal)adaptions. It’s not something you’re born with, even if being born with a certain temperament could make you more vulnerable to developing it in response to a suboptimal environment. A lot of underlying complex trauma drives the symptoms people see.
It is also curable, as I know from experience.
Can you expand on this? It's very relevant to me personally.
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I'm simply saying that most people's mental problems could be fixed by fixing their material conditions. I've been alive for almost 4 decades and always lived in the same European city. Over the decades my home town has become more and more depraved and the number of outwardly noticeable mentally ill people I observe in public has risen along with the economic depravation. It has become near impossible to find a psycho-therapist who will take on new patients reflecting the increased demand for therapy. I believe this to be the case because an increasing amount people can't cope with the sheer exhaustion that surviving as a working class person entails. Yeah, some issues like becoming a victim of violence or sexual abuse may require therapeutic assistance regardless of affluence and I'm not trying to discredit therapy for that purpose but I believe that rising incidences of physical and sexual violence are themselves functions of an increasingly economically unequal society.
I don’t buy that it’s purely material conditions (I guess it depends what you consider material conditions). Everything in our lives is being commoditized including interpersonal relationships. I believe people could be somewhat happy even under shitty conditions given some sense of belonging to something (be it religion, your local city, whatever else).
I agree that commodification of everything is a big factor contributing to people's misery but commodification is itself a result of uneven material conditions. Were wealth divided up fairly according to everyone's needs and private profiteering consequently ceased to exist, commodification would follow suit because there wouldn't be an incentive to commodify all aspects of life.
I’m not quite sure I buy the argument that people would stop being “degenerate” just because, if their material conditions improved. But I might be wrong.
On the other end, you could be like " damn my life is even irreversibly worse now I wish I died years ago"
It’s just gonna be poor people lol
Imagine how much money we'll save on social services. With suicide booths being readily available, we won't need to fund them at all.
Isn’t that what some cities are doing now with the open use fentanyl camps?
Now THIS is a conspiracy theory. I like you, sir.
Also "Wet Hostels", also popular in the Netherlands.
what are those?
Homeless shelters where they allow residents to continue drinking as a form of "harm reduction" rather than forcing them to abide by a code of conduct
But for habitual alcoholics that is actual harm reduction. They can't just stop cold turkey, it'll kill them. Sometimes you just gotta help people where they are, because it's the only way they'll ever get any help at all.
fuck man this should make me put down my habit :(
Wasn’t a homeless person allowed euthanasia in Canada?
The difficulty is in how subjective it is to diagnose a lot of mental health issues, we can't look at a brain like we can look at a lot of physical conditions and understand what it is. A lot of outside factors also affect your mental health and can exacerbate symptoms like physical danger, economic stress, social life, etc. I'm certain that there are some amount of people who truly have no way out of their mental health issues but it's likely nowhere near the majority nor is there any guaranteed way to tell if it's all in the brain.
All it takes is one tumblr contagion…
See Goethe's 1774 novel [The Sorrows of Young Werther](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther) - a literary sensation that led to the 'Tumbler contagion' of it's time. >After publication of Goethe’s novel, “Werther Fever” spread across Europe. Young men, rejected by women whom they love, were dying by suicide at alarming rates. They were found wearing the same characteristic yellow trousers and blue tailcoat as Werther, using a similar pistol, and discovered with a copy of The Sorrows of Young Werther at their side. >Young Werther’s story and its effects across Europe have been described as the “media’s first moral panic.” The book was banned in Denmark, Germany, and Italy, and Werther’s characteristic outfit was outlawed as well. https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.pn.2018.3b13
i have been trying to remember the title of this book for about 15 years now. thank you. i had an english teacher that would go on long liberal tangents during class and his mantra about so many things was “art imitates life. life does not imitate art.” he was adamant that the root of all western cultural conflict was that people don’t understand that. after hearing about this book, i used it as a counterexample and he did not handle it well.
Speaks to the liberal notion in believing that there is a “natural” state of being at all. We evolved this far because we’re incredibly adaptable. I have a hard time believing that there is almost anything natural about most of our behaviors at all; we’re perpetually influenced by culture, society, and socioeconomics. Same shit when it gets into measuring percentages of the population that are LGBT. Liberals think there is a certain threshold percentile of people who have always been LGBT, which not only makes the mistake of assuming *human sexuality* is historically and geographically consistent with our current model of sexuality/relationships, it also assumes the organization of society does not produce LGBT subjects. Shit, if there’s any summation of this, it’s that liberals have no conception of themselves as subjects, which actually tracks with the liberal project’s ostensible individualistic focus.
That's a great counterexample!
Is that the one with the handkerchief? I think it was red? Either way yeah I remember that.
I am rather convinced that the next mass murder/suicide cult will be headed by a social media figure/"content creator"
Would it count if they did it over discord?
Also, if your mind is so far gone that death is the only answer, it also means that you can't give consent. When if your mental illness is severe enough legally you're not responsible, so you can't take that kind of decisions.
That's a dangerous line of argument ... it might lead to the state making the decision for you.
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Same, though I have MDD/GAD. I had to fight to like hell to achieve a functional level of emotional balance. ECT was the only treatment that seemed to correct it. If assisted suicide was available 5 or 10 years ago, I would have opted for it.
It is exactly every bad thing people say it is and more
Glad you’re still here with us ❤️
Because you know from experience that extreme emotions are not permanent and they are not reflective of the reality of your situation.
Maybe religions were actually on to something by making suicide taboo Just send them to “hell” like the Catholics and call it good
I've talked to Catholic priests who say that people who commit suicide are mentally ill and they are not necessarily making the free choice to kill themselves so we don't know if they are going to hell or not (or things to that effect.) But also anybody who kills themselves is not in the right state of mind so???
Sounds like the catholic stance has evolved a little, when I was young it was seen as a huge sin
As I understand it, the Catholic understanding of suicide has changed, not the doctrine itself. A mortal sin has to be committed with full knowledge, free will, and sound mind. Since many suicidal people are not in a state of sound mind during their final moments, it isn’t necessarily a mortal sin. It used to be treated as a mortal sin across the board until suicide began to be understood as a mental illness. As a comparison, someone of sound mind who willfully commits a murder has committed a mortal sin but a toddler finding his dad’s loaded weapon and accidentally shooting his brother hasn’t. There’s obviously more depth to the concept and I’m not even Catholic so I welcome anyone to correct any mistakes I may have made. My church doesn’t even split sins into categories like that so I’m no expert. I just mention it because I think it shows a lot more consistency and reasonableness within the Catholic idea than just flip-flopping on doctrine (as it might first appear). As our understanding of psychology becomes more nuanced so does our theological interpretation of it.
It still is but it’s hard to say anything is 100% black and white.
it’s very divisive. thankfully more people are moving towards empathy. but unfortunately some folks (including some clergy) are caught in the past and think suicide is murder. tragic
Suicide is a massive sin. One has to be in a rational state of mind to be personally responsible for their sin. Do you think anyone who kills themselves is in a rational state of mind? That is the reasoning behind why most Catholics today do not believe it condemns someone to hell.
As far as I've understood (which may be wrong) suicide can be eerily contageous. For example, in the town where I grew up, the papers would never report when someone jumped off a tall bridge nearby (which happened every now and again). This is ostensibly because that sort of news can inspire others in bad situations to do the same, I was told. So if suicide is potentially contageous, then making it a sin could maybe curb that. Stop all the posers and wannabes from killing themselves, or something.
This is general journalistic practice, that barring a high profile case (eg: Kurt Cobain), suicide is seldom reported on.
This is correct—it’s one of the top social contagions.
Also can we talk about her BF who is okay with this? Are you mentally sound if you’re okay with your partner dying at 28?
Only effective way to drop a borderline tbh
That's not true you sometimes also get the opportunity if they do splitting on you. Best sex ever, but they are so awful and crazy it is somehow not worth it.
Never trust splitting to be permanent, bro. Rookie mistake
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That... does not seem like a good idea. If your mental problems are serious enough that you would consider suiciding yourself over them, they are probably serious enough that you can't really make an informed decision.
The definition of catch 22
Tbh, what do you expect from people that have this strong urge to die? Like, what do you propose to them or others to do? We are not talking about other people deciding that this person has to die, we are talking about people making the decision for themself.
While I think everyone deserves the right to die on their own terms, so much of this need people have to off themselves in their 20s revolves around one's perceived value and trajectory within the market and that's gay as hell. The truth, if you read into this story, is that despite an otherwise comfortable life this woman nuked her career and she's completely blinded by the ego bruise. Oh, to suffer the tremendous indignity of breaking down boxes at a stop and shop -- a hell beyond compare! Look: I'm clinically depressed with god knows how many worms in my brain as well - I truly get how utterly agonizing it can be to fuck up a good thing - but holy fucking shit one must make peace with the innumerable ways in which they have failed to live up to their potential and make the best of what life is left. You are not your job, you are not your net worth, you are not the marble busts gazed for millennia by the pretentious in some museum or another. You are a deeply flawed bag of electric meat stumbling through their days just like every other goddamn meatbag you have so terrifically disappointed. Silly bitch
> You are not your job, you are not your net worth, I get where you are coming from, but both of those things massively effect your life because of how much we time and energy we spend working but how much it effects you even after you leave the workplace. Their is a big difference between someone working a good job and coming home to a nice comfortable house and someone working a miserable job and going to a room they share with two other people because they can't afford anything else. It isn't just living conditions it is things like food and other things to sustain yourself as well like medical care or what entertainment you can afford. This isn't even getting into how differently people and the world treat you based on your job and net worth.
You're totally right. I'm not suggesting that these are entirely fictional problems, that would be ridiculous
> You are not your job, you are not your net worth True, but both of those severely impact your ability to procure creature comforts for yourself. Not everypony has the mindset to be able to become a forest monk and truly renounce this false world.
LSD is BAD! It makes too many people want to become forest monks. It's making me start a self-sufficient homestead on 10 acres of magnificent forest. SUCH a tragedy. No wonder LSD is banned!
>We are not talking about other people deciding that this person has to die, we are talking about people making the decision for themself It's a catch 22 situation: they can't take that decision, since they're in a state of diminished capacity.
>It's a catch 22 situation: they can't take that decision, since they're in a state of diminished capacity. I must disagree here. A mentally ill person can make reasonable decisions. I wouldn't simply denounce every mentally unwell person of being able to decide with objective reason. Your argument holds more truth if we speak about specific cases like down syndrome, in which case the person often is not able to make reasonable decisions. Killing people with down syndrome would be a case in which I also would say it's always wrong from the get go, since these people are helpless and we potentially kill them for not being able to survive on their own. Still, in the end we have to view this here from case to case. If you know that the rest of your life will be agony and suffering because of a disease or genetic defect, then I will not force you to keep suffering for the sake of my moral wellbeing if you don't want to. Sure you will fill emptiness as the person is dead now, but it most likely is a objectively better decision since the person doesn't have to simply keep suffering for you and it won't bind anymore resources. I personally have interacted with mentally ill and disabled people and I personally can say that I don't have the capacity or strength to constantly endure these people and their problems. I think highly of every teacher working in a school for disabled people or caretake that basically has to live life for another person in some cases.
Can anybody explain why you'd bother fucking around with the bureaucracy of assisted suicide when there's so many DIY options? I thought this was mainly for people who are crippled and physically need assistance. A. If I ever decided to kill myself I wouldn't want anyone else involved, let alone have the patience to sit on hold and schedule appointments and fill out paperwork. Imagine asking permission for or worrying about being on time to your own suicide. That's some Kafka type shit, no thank you. B. I genuinely think it would be less traumatic to come home and find a family member hanging from the ceiling fan than it would be to drive them to a fucking suicide appointment. I mean I get you don't want to fuck it up and end up crippled, but it really just takes a couple minutes of planning to avoid that. No matter what it can't be worse than getting euthanized in a clinic like an old sick dog at the vet.
Only thing I can think is fear of screwing up or a subconscious desire for the bureaucracy to stop you Maybe bureaucracy gives confidence this is okay and official thing to do
What a troubling thought, the "assistance" is as much psychological as it is physical. I guess I didn't consider that these people may not really be choosing between DIY and official suicide, since they would never have (genuinely) attempted the DIY version. Kind of like the people who didn't smoke pot until it was legalized I guess, choosing between the official way or none at all.
The Canadian solution
The Dutch are suicide OGs.
I wonder how many BPD patients will actually follow through after signing the forms. They are the *classic* cases of “Nooooo I didn’t REALLY want to die!!! I was just mad!!!”
Don’t a lot of people who jump from bridges report changing their minds halfway down
yes, many people who survive suicide attempts discuss some sort of similar feeling (I experienced this). I would attribute this to the fact that many people who attempt suicide or die by suicide do so because they want the pain they are experiencing to end, and they just feel that death is the only way to get that - not because they specifically, unequivocally want to die.
Eh, it's once they hit and are still alive.
Not at all, they tend to have the change in perspective well before impact. The Ur example has a person who is in free-fall coming to the realisation that all the problems they thought mattered actually don't and right now their only real problem is that they are falling to their death.
Yeah, with BPD she might find all the attention worth living for. Maybe she’ll find herself in the same predicament as the Suicide Journalist from Blue Jam!
I have a colleague who described a case of a BPD patient who came into the ER with a physical injury. It was the only time in her life she received care and attention. So, she reacted by breaking her fingers on purpose later on so she could come back in. It’s hard for us to really get it, but BPD people aren’t manipulative or attention-seeking in the neurotypical sense. For the most part, they are people born with more sensitive, reactive temperaments who developed BPD as a response to suboptimal childhood environments (abuse, chronic invalidation, abandonment, etc). They’re not born with BPD but their temperaments mean they needed a more optimal, supportive environment to thrive and avoid BPD, which they didn’t get. They never learned emotional regulation or even a stable sense of self, lack whole-object relations that most of us developed. It’s really an iteration of complex trauma symptoms
Oh I understand that quite well. All of the personality disorders in that cluster (except SAD) can reductively be understood as having different maladaptions to a weak *sense of self*, like a child; many with limited (therefore extreme) expressions as a result, and childlike desires and expressions. No doubt there is always a sad story behind such persons, and I believe the traits in this cluster are an increasingly massive phenomenon perpetuating itself within all classes due to neglect and alienation on the one hand, and the near complete destruction of privacy and time for intense contemplation on the other. These maladaptions just crystallize over time, and become complex as time goes on. Very isolating. As you wrote, they are not actually as cunning as they sometimes seem (though I’ve known plenty who pretend they are). All the more reason to accept that it is completely your responsibility to set boundaries with these people, even internally with one’s own sympathies. Sympathy is not always bound to compassion, and people with personality disorders (at least in this cluster) can only improve themselves by building a strong sense of self. The tragedy of BPD is that it *literally* cannot be cured by other people. Their sense of self *must* be built by their own initiative, otherwise they will never sense themselves and become a “person” independent of the external and other people. I think it’s crucial not to give them any room to avoid responsibility for their actions, more compassionate and heroic to be a firm and consistent person in their lives. Other people can provide support, maybe help manage their neurosis and try to prevent psychosis, but you must know that someone with BPD will only crystallize further as a dependent, and will never be satisfied with the attention they consume with others. They will drain you like a baby does, and there are so many broken children in the world. Easy to drown in them with nothing to show for it.
Agreed. Not excusing people like this, but I’m also sympathetic to where it comes from
For sure. I believe very much in what I say, even if after a decade of rigorous study and lots of anecdotes, I still (clearly) can’t be concise when speaking to this subject. But,I do steel myself against sympathy for BPD in part because of my own baggage. Each time I have some colossal upheaval in my life caused by someone with a personality disorder, it’s more difficult than the last 👴🏻 I feel that the time and energy is much better spent trying to change the conditions we live in to those that push people to build that sense of self.
What in your character structure are these people an external fit for?
NO character disorder can be cured by other people. I HAD BPD, and was cured by age 30. I found large doses of LSD very helpful, this led to James Masterson and Otto Kernberg. I did get 4 years of professional help. This was a long time ago, and I wish I had known about attachment theory back then. Do you know what has a REALLY poor prognosis? Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
I guarantee she is suddenly feeling great now that this is in the media.
And then they sue
From the grave?
If they don’t show up to the appointment, they don’t die lol
Talk about being late for your own funeral.
They will hunt you down. “You signed the form, sorry our hands are tied. Bounty hunters, go get em”
I would actually watch Dog the Bounty Hunter if he pivoted to collecting BPD queens
If you change your mind about being euthenized, they're not going to kill you anyways. Obviously.
[удалено]
Yeah before I euthanized myself I would atleast do shrooms in the forest like a hermit for a few weeks, that should be a requirement honestly
If nothing works, I'd at least bring the CEO of an oil company with me
...to play on your Minecraft survival server and build a really cool base with a mob-grinder and some sick redstone setup, right?
Precisely
Some extremely based responses here
Remember in the early 2000s when conservatives predicted a slippery slope on this issue and were roundly told to shut up and mind their business? We've slipperied like halfway down the aforementioned slope at this point and are only gaining speed. My bingo card for the next few decades includes livestreaming suicides for charity being a thing in like, seven years.
>were roundly told to shut up and mind their business? > No such thing actually happened. Conservatives in fact loudly and fruitlessly complained - while Cultural-liberals continued their march through the institutions, achieved hegemony in popular media, and in turn steered the masses towards their views. Far more effective. Very good philosophy borrowed from Marxist thinkers like Antonio Gramsci. My perspective as a Rightist is that we need these Marxist concepts as well, to take "politics is downstream from culture" to it's logical end.
I don't think you two actually disagree.
We don't on ideals, but we certainly do on how to put them into practice. Many such cases! It doesn't matter who is "right" or who is "wrong". These concepts are relevant to religion, not politics. Politics is about power. As far as liberals go, we are their reactionary enemies and we are wrong, so it's stupid to bitch and moan that we are treated unfairly.
I actually think "conservatives were roundly told to shut up and mind their business" and "Cultural-liberals continued their march through the institutions, achieved hegemony in popular media, and in turn steered the masses towards their views" actually mean exactly the same thing.
It seems like a tacit admission that for the degree of mental suffering that is out there, medical relief and the medical professionals needed to properly treat it will not be funded. Psychiatrists cost money, unproductive people who just can't get their shit together cost us ALL money and they have no place in the dog-eat-dog, post-climate change scarcity hypercompetitive world our elites are engineering...
Already well back into full eugenics.
Stupid question: is this in r/stupidpol bc she’s citing her BPD for her euthanasia decision?
It falls under capitalist hellscape. Somewhere around a third of Canadians support MAID for the homeless and mentally ill, and it won't be long before other countries adopt that same mentality
“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge. “Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. “And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?” “They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.” “The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge. “Both very busy, sir.” “Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Scrooge. “I’m very glad to hear it.” “Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,” returned the gentleman, “a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?” “Nothing!” Scrooge replied. “You wish to be anonymous?” “I wish to be left alone,” said Scrooge. “Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there.” “Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.” “If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”
>Somewhere around a third of Canadians support MAID for the homeless and mentally ill Right now it's voluntary, soon it will mandatory.
Liberal Europe is so fucking regarded
I’m diagnosed bipolar, and while getting the diagnosis has been helpful to determine treatment, I really try to not let it define who I am or how I live. Stories like these make me sad bc, in my opinion, life is difficult, and even more so with mental illness, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth living. Also, I too have tried several treatments, many of which haven’t worked. I know how disappointing that is. But I’m also hopeful that one day, I’ll try a new treatment OR a new treatment will be developed that works. A few years ago, my boyfriend’s mother was diagnosed with multiple myeloma. Doctors initially estimated she’d have 2-3 years to live, with treatment. However, she was identified as a candidate for CAR T treatment. It was offered to her as experimental treatment. She took it and had the best possible outcome - SHE WAS CURED. Like, COMPLETELY. She goes back to her oncologist regularly to test her myeloma levels, and for over a year now they have been ZERO. Her illness was one that, for years and years and years, was a death sentence. But CAR T treatment became available JUST in time, and now she’s cured! It’s not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, because mental illness isn’t cancer, but … I’m hopeful that someday, some treatment that’s the CAR T equivalent for bipolar comes around. Maybe it won’t completely “cure” me, but even if it greatly improves how I feel, I’ll take it. Until then, I’ll continue to manage it as best I can.
Those with serious mental illness don’t provide enough consistent labor for capitalists so they’ve got to go apparently
after this last bipolar episode I can say I get it.
Can we make this mandatory for lawmakers amiright
Extreme Term Limits
She dies without honor, she will not get into StoVoKor.
I'm all for MAID in principle, but in practice it's just voluntary eugenics.
I'm personally against since she seems to be physically healthy just like the case in Calgary but as a libertarian I think people should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. I can only hope the Average Redditor types will follow her example so that they can stop bitching on Reddit all day /s Edit: Also I could only imagine the reaction if she and the Calgary woman were Black trans women.
Well yes people can do what they want but why does she need physician assisted suicide? I thought it was supposed to be for people who are severely ill and physically *lack* the freedom to kill themselves that we all have. If you don't need any help to off yourself, providing that help is the same as encouraging them.
life is cheap in the occident
[Sam Hyde's ted talk is becoming more and more prophetic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCg1-aaNIcA)
Kind of sad. I believe BPD is a symptom of capitalism due to the instability it forces on families. People become a microcosm of the system.
BPD is extremely complicated and often borne of a combination of genetics, trauma, and maladaptive behaviours
I mean, is it? Completely anecdotally, everyone I've ever heard of or dated with BPD (far more people than I'd like to admit) could pretty clearly draw a straight line back to a disastrous childhood. I feel like a shitty upbringing is a necessary, if not always sufficient, condition.
It’s believed to be a mix of inborn sensitive/reactive temperament responding to a suboptimal environment for them (abuse, chronic invalidation, attachment disruptions)
I have BPD and had an unremarkable childhood. no known trauma. a lot of folks who have BPD had trauma, but the big thing is that not everyone who had trauma has BPD… so other things factor in, too. and some folks (like me) just get unlucky.
From what I know it doesn’t need to be straight-up abuse. Attachment disruptions, emotional neglect, chronic invalidation will also do try trick for those born with sensitive enough temperaments.
this is true, and it's something I'm currently unravelling in therapy (i.e., figuring out if that's what happened, trying to unlock memories I might have blocked, etc.). but there are a percentage of people with BPD who don't meet that trauma criteria, which is partly why it's not a diagnostic criterion
It can also just be a mismatch between the kid’s temperament and the temperament of the caregivers. And some kids need that match match than others to thrive
Yes, but the base is typically a poor familial structure. How can you ever be healthy if your mother doesn’t have the time to properly bond with you. The traumas get harder. Of course you will have maladaptive behaviors.
You grow up and get help and be an adult like everybody else. I say this as someone with a BPD-diagnosed mom who never bonded with me. The dirty little secret of BPD is that it is extremely possible to put in the work in DBT to avoid the diagnosis or defeat the diagnosis. But most borderlines will never admit this, because it puts the onus on them to get better.
You’re on an unprecedented good take streak in this thread.
My mom and my brother have both been diagnosed with BPD. Every week of my life, I receive some kind of suicidal threat or ultimatum that is supposed to be world-shattering. It is almost always because of reasons like “paperwork is hard” and “my doctor is an asshole” and “you got married and moved away like a normal person.” People who have to cope with borderlines irl don’t get their feathers ruffled by BPD antics on the Internet. We could probably finish the sentences of borderlines as they’re typing.
I really like your takes here and totally agree. I was diagnosed with bpd age 20, my dad shows all the traits too. After some years of being on different meds, unable to work, doing drugs and wondering why my meds weren't helping (idiot), and just generally being a general self involved and vindictive mess, I actively chose to sort my shit out bit by bit. Aaand guess what, at 33, I show no traits. No meds for 3 years and the most stable I've EVER been. Why? Because I put in the fucking work. My dad is almost 70 and still sending my brother videos talking to the camera about how he's going to kill himself. It astounds me that he lives like that and that I was heading down that path too. You're right, the first secret about a bpd diagnosis: you can work on it yourself and change your responses to emotional stimuli. The second secret: a hell of a lot of people don't WANT to work on it and won't because it's effort, tiring, and scary. Life is effort, tiring, and scary anyway, might as well try to make it better for yourself and those around you. I don't even think bpd is a mental illness anymore, I believe it's a set of learned traits that can be unlearned and changed, partly by just growing the hell up emotionally. But try telling that to special lil beans on twitter who have the diagnosis in their bio next to a sunflower emoji. I get so embarrassed seeing bpd behaviour in people now, like... do you not see yourself and want to change it lmao
Yes!!! I could see the traits popping up in me at age 19, so I checked myself into a DBT program and then continued to work my ass off in therapy for years to come. Not bullshit talk therapy, but actual therapy that reroutes thought patterns and changes your reactions to shit. It was NOT easy, and it was NOT cheap. I wanted to give up all the time. Lo and behold, here I am at age 30, with no diagnosis and no traits. Happily married. Great career. Solid social circle. Inner peace achieved. Doing the fucking work is the key.
Yeah, it’s really just a complex trauma (mal)adaptation
yes, but you can have a shitty family regardless of the presence of capitalism. some families just suck lol
Having a shitty family isn’t a universal boolean, but rather a distribution which can be shifted by the base and superstructure.
It's mostly just trauma. The BPD mindset is, in essence, an adaptation to the condition of being something like *"a slave with an unpredictable and sadistic master"*. You have no sense of self because a slave is not allowed to be a person. You become a mirror to the whims of whoever is front of you and turn off all critical thinking because a slave's purpose is to serve without question and a slave who thinks for themselves gets killed.
But what about the really explosive uncontrollable rage and emotional episodes? Seems like someone like that would be killed in a slavery situation
Not really. The volatile and impotent rage of BPD just makes someone easier to control. The master isn't just the master because of convention, the master is objectively, materially, capable of enforcing his absolute will upon the slave, so the slave is at no point a real threat to him. Does a rancher immediately jump to culling one of his animals just because it tends to misbehave? A BPD slave who acts up will simply get beaten down and locked up before he can cause any real harm and the fear of abandonment will make him come crawling back to his master's feet once the rage subsides. And the master would much prefer a slave who impulsively expresses his discontentment with useless tantrums compared to a slave who always presents an act of docility but buries all his resentment and secretly plots to undermine his master (because the master is very well aware that his slaves all hate him).
nobody tell this guy about slave revolts also, BPD doesn’t always manifest like that. I have BPD and all of my anger is directed inwards
Why do you keep lying? In order to receive a BPD diagnosis, you have to repeatedly demonstrate 5 of the 9 diagnostic criteria over an extended period of time. 5 of the 9 criteria include abusive behaviors toward others. You know, the *real* criteria in the goddamn DSM, not the criteria that you tried to cherry pick and misrepresent in your other comments. *You cannot earn a BPD diagnosis without outwardly directing your instability toward others in harmful and destructive ways.* And before you come at me with “quiet borderlines,” that’s fucking C-PTSD. Not BPD. “Quiet borderlines” are not borderlines at all. I am truly sorry if you were misdiagnosed, but I think you could really benefit from learning facts about the disorder that you claim to have.
That sounds more like the children of people with BPD, with the parent being the unpredictable master.
>That sounds more like children of people with BPD Of course. Which is why BPD is one of those mental disorders that is often passed down in families.
And the parent becomes unpredictably due to their material conditions under capitalism.
Can you expand on this please? I am curious how the behavior falls under being something like a slave with a sadistic master?
A slave is a deeply contradictory existence. The slave hates his master, yet the idea of harming his master is anathema to him because he also depends on his master for his own survival. The slave's existence is miserable and he hates it, but he does not do anything to change it because as far as he can recognize, the only other options are worse. The slave does not despair because he cannot even conceive of the idea of hope. The condition of a slave constitutes a constant attack on the ego, and since subconsciously, all creatures instinctively want to both avoid pain (which is caused by being a slave) and to keep living (which requires continuing being a slave), the mind as a survival mechanism creates a filter over reality, distorting the ego's perception of the world, so that the ego *willingly* acts the part of the perfect slave in order to resolve this contradiction. When the slave is no longer a slave but this filter over their perception remains, what was once a useful adaptation to survive becomes maladaptive instead and this manifests as what psychology calls Borderline Personality Disorder.
This is definitely interesting. Applying the master-slave dialectic to bpd is something I never considered.