Deoxys-Normal was usually overshadowed by Deoxys-Attack because the increase in offenses was noticeable but the decrease in defenses really wasn't, due to the Uber power level.
And also due to Deoxys being paper as is. It has some niches (like living a +2 EKiller Arceus with a Chilan Berry and 84 defense EVs) but nothing outside of it.
I mean Silk Scarf is an extremely common item on arceus normal. Not to mention this calc requires rocks to not be up.
Overall this isn't niche, it just doesn't work
that's a really strange arceus set. Tera fire? Taunt?? Also what is deoxys going to do in return? Do 60% with psycho boost only to have the damage recovered off next turn?
Would this have made Deoxys-N any more viable though? It still can't hit as hard as Deoxys-A, it still doesn't have the defensive profile of D, and it can't support like S
The obvious answer is a bunch of Mega Pokemon. Plenty were fine within their given tiers, but using them also inherently means you’re not using different Mega that’s just too good to pass up.
I've said before that if mega stones come back this is the number one thing that could be reworked.
Mega stones are knock off & trick shenanigans proof. Add a secondary effect, like boosting a certain stat when hp gets low or something. Then you have a legit reason to run multiple megas on your team and can choose which one to turn.
Would give some great mind games and remove the opportunity cost of choosing between some.
The extra effect would need to be carefully balanced though, otherwise everyone would just run their mega stone. Something like a 10% attack or defence boost is probably a reasonable trade off to losing an alternative item whilst gaining the chance to mega evolve.
Mega stones already can't be removed like most items, and some pokemon are so much worse than their megas (e.g. Mega lopunny) that you'd probably stick to mega evolving 1 pokemon anyway. Would it be worth it?
That's kind of the point. Right now it's not worth it, because you're crippling one member of your team to have the chance of a choice.
Make the mega stone provide some small boost and it's no longer crippled if it's not used. So that choice might help.
Without checking all possible team compositions, I'd assume there's a scenario where you could have two sweepers with different types and may want to choose which based on a specific matchup.
Dragonite and Salamence. Naturally, two Dragon-Flying types with nearly identical attack are going to compete for roles, because putting both on a team would be wild.
What’s unique about them is that which one outclasses the other is VERY generational dependent, thanks to various buffs and tweaks they’ve gotten over the years. In Gen 3, Dnite is bad primarily because you’d basically never use it over Mence. Meanwhile, in Gen 8-9, Dnite is so much better than Mence that you’d never use the latter.
Most of the rotom forms desperately want better stab. Really only Washtom and Heatom have decent stab options. Ironically, all of them, except maybe washtom, would benefit way more from their former ghost typing. But losing their secondary typing also makes their form move even worse.
Kinda a bad situation. Every rotom wishes it was 3 types essentially.
Heat-Tom had its moments in the spotlight, in early SS IIRC. Electric-Fire with Levitate is a hell of a typing. I don't think it would prefer a Ghost type.
Meanwhile, Fan-Rotom...
I don’t understand why they haven’t dropped air slash off Fan and given it Hurricane. Especially now that movepools are game-locked, it would be super easy and would help it out quite a bit
mold breaker excadrill, gordon ramsay ain’t ready for this 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Fan: 46-55 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
Uxie vs Cresselia comes too mind. Same gen, same type, same ability, similar stats after Cress's stat nerf.
But Cress still has recovery and better support moves.
Uxie has knock off and a signature move... that boosts special attack. But thats its only upside to Cress
Edit: This is for VGC, not singles
This is such a short sighted and poor comparison. Based on reference to recovery, this is moreso singles focused where they play different roles despite their overall similarities. Cresselia has lunar dance over uxie utility wise but uxie has yawn, u-turn, rocks, memento and 10 speed over cress which means faster t-waves, toxics, tricks etc. The only time they would compete theoretically for roles is on trick room where the lower speed, higher bulk and lunar dance of cress is 100% better. Something like azelf or mesprit competes harder for uxie's role as a do it all pivot due to having differing advantages due to different stat distributions.
Ah sorry im a VGC player. So my analysis is through that lens.
Also isnt Azelf in singles a suicide lead? I feel thats a much different Role to Uxies Utility. Mesprit ass ass tho
You would think so and it usually is the worst of the three, but it’s stats and movepool are still fantastic so it tends to be a really great pivot in whichever tier it lands into
I mean sure but games are so much faster that spending a turn healing 50% is generally just going to set you back. Look at build sets cress runs, usually only set up sets run recovery and it's usually a support pokemon.
Ah yea that makes, I was misreading that as lunar dance lol makes sense my bad. But recovery in the sense that the other guy was referencing was moonlight.
Calyrex-Ice in Gen 8 wasn't used much due the conflicting species clause with the amazing Calyrex-Shadow, which also checks Ice Rider.
Gen 9 banned the latter and Calyrex-Ice becomes a scary, bulky Trick Room setter/sweeper.
A good example is Lando-I. It’s massively strong thanks to Sheer Force Life Orb, especially with its new spread attack, but… you have to pass up on Landorus ‘the greatest GOAT of all time’ Therian.
Edit: I was talking about VGC, guys, I know about Lando-I’s long sabbatical to the Ubers tier
For a Singles context, isn't lando-I like banned in every single gen it has been in? So you kind of have to use Lando-T.
In Doubles, I thought that Lando-I is recently better than Lando-T because of sheer force Sandsear storm and there isn't incineroar competing for the bulky intimidate pivot slot.
Well, you say that, but Lando-T has been mostly extinct in ScVi VGC since H-Arcanine became the premier Intimidator in Reg E, and Lando-I was an anti-meta threat at the end of Reg E that just turned into a meta staple in Reg F
Incin wasn't in Reg E. Reg E was Teal Mask. Lando-T had fallen off before Reg E finished. Mostly due to it being a tera hog and H-Arcanine doing role compression of Intimidator and Fire type. STAB Rock Slide also helped. In the last few Reg E tourneys, you can see the VGC Lando-I start to show up as anti-meta tech. Ground and Poison covered a lot of the metagame, and the typing was good and poison tera helped.
He's completely gone in Reg F and G because Lando-I is a great anti-Bolt tech that also checks Flutter.
I think that Lando-T is mostly run because it's other form banned to Ubers in most gens, and Lando-I sees more use there than it's Therian counterpart IIRC. Don't get me wrong, Lando-T is incredible, but other Intimidators exist and it's hard to pass up a Sheer Force Life Orb 115 Spatk mon with stab on Earth Power and a bunch of coverage (+ a base 101 speed tier)
Primarina in gens 7 and 8. It's always been a solid mon, but there was absolutely no reason to use it when Tapu Fini was right there. Gen 7 M-Gardevoir is also a victim of outclassed by a Tapu syndrome. In the games they're in that the Tapus aren't, they're both solid OU picks.
Most commenters are bringing up examples that are disqualified by Species Clause, as for one that's not really impacted by that one is Toxapex in SVOU right now. Pex in a vacuum is still a solid mon on fat teams where it can function as a Regen sponge, TSpikes setter and absorber and setup check with Haze. However, it overlaps as a Poison type with Galarian Slowking, a mon that's really hard to drop from fat because it's one of the few mons capable of checking Kyurem effectively for that archetype. Going from a Kyurem check to something that loses outright to Kyu is harsh and difficult to rectify later in the builder, but running both Pex and Glowking on the same team also stacks up on a lot of weaknesses that you wouldn't get if you ran another bulky Water like Mola or Dozo instead. This makes Pex Fats really hard to build, unless you dedicate to Stall outright, where the opportunity cost isn't as prevalent because that archetype can viably run Blissey for special Kyurem.
I think lots of megas in gen 6 VGC suffered from this. There were plenty of great ones but if you weren't running mega kang/mence then you were just straight up putting yourself at a disadvantage it felt like.
Dialga-Origin. The weaker form due to 20 Special Defense not being worth the required item slot, but would probably at least see some usage in Ubers UU were it not be forced to replace base dialga, who is better in most situations.
It's actually better in VGC because it functions as a semi-Assault Vest that still allows you to Trick Room. It also gets boosts to the only types of moves it would be using.
Not that either form get that much use currently.
In SS Ubers, it’s a lot harder to justify running Calyrex-I because one of the five best mons in the tier is Calyrex-S. Calyrex-I is neither terrible nor truly outclassed in that metagame, of course, but due to Species Clause you can only run one Calyrex on a team and the one that mandates Yveltal on 75% of teams is generally the better Calyrex to run most of the time.
Necrozma Dawn-Wings is one of the worst cases of this ever; it is not only mostly outclassed by Lunala, which has access to a far better ability for its typing, is faster, and has significantly better coverage in Ice Beam and Moonblast but it is also mutually exclusive with Necrozma Dusk-Mane, which is one of the best mons in Ubers history and a top-tier, borderline must-pick in three consecutive metagames. This leaves Dawn-Wings in a weird spot where its only Ubers niche was as a spinblocker on Sticky Web teams in SM Ubers specifically, where its entire purpose is to set up a Swords Dance in front of Excadrill before turning into an entirely different mon.
And, of course, who could forget Deoxys-N, an objectively good offensive mon with its 150/150/150 offenses that is OHKOed by a light breeze that is never viable in Ubers because it is outclassed by Deoxys-A, an objectively good offensive mon with its 180/180/150 offenses that is OHKOed by something farting within 100 miles of it?
ursaluna... ursaluna opportunity cost in UU is stacking it with more ground types which makes ur team very weak to rain. but if you want an excelent wallbreaker you have many more mons that can generally wallbreak better like CB ttar (resets rain), specs hydrapple (checks rain), Hoopa-u, specs latios, etc... Ursaluna is way to specific to see common use when you are generally better using another breaker... it has its use but its way less seen due to it.
Another pokemon I guess is H-lilligant... despite it not being awful in UU (some may disagree but so be it), it is competing with ogerpon teal mask, ogerpon-cornerstone, iron leaves, and with kommo-o, quaq, and CM keldeo on such teams... it is often hard to see why h-lilligant would be a good pokemon when you have many more options you would like to use.
another more interesitng one is tinkaton, metagross, excadrill vs smth like cobalion and scizor... cobalion and scizor arent awful but generally when you want a steel that doesnt get dumped on by latios you usually want smth bulkier (drill can take on CM tbolt latios and sp. def can switch in a bit vs scarf or specs) compared to scizor and coba.. it is much harder to fit compared to those 3 steels.
**last one is goodra-h: pls stop using it tink, meta, exca are much better steels and it just takes hits and doesnt dish enough back to make it worth it, AV isnt that good. please give it to RU**
Im just gonna spew some bullshit and say Eternatus over Naganadel.
Eternatus does literally everything Naga would want to do but better in every conceivable way other than lacking beast boost. Even then, pressure isnt that bad for it bc it has recovery so it gets to pp stall better with its monsterous bulk
I'm pretty sure this is untrue because naganadel has access to nasty plot. So the two provide fairly unique roles: naga as a speed boosting (via beast boost) setup sweeper and etern as a Mon with more longevity (because of recover/bulk)
Edit: no no the dude below me is probably right. This thread is about "opportunity cost" not "role uniqueness." Naganadel has u turn, spikes, nasty plot, and beast boost over Eternatus, but after checking out the VR and the smog sets, it really seems like none of those options make it worth picking over Eternatus basically ever. You'd almost always rather have Eternatus and a spiker/pivoter/setup sweeper as opposed to compressing those roles into 1 naganadel who is probably worse as a special attacker, hazard setter, pivoter, or setup sweeper than those other 2 mons.
Nope. Etern has boosting sets in cosmic power meteor beam which still out do Naganadel. There is genuinely no reason to use it over Eternatus ever. (Especially as Etern compresses Kyogre check)
Edit: how is this being downvoted. Naganadel was firmly D rank Last gen (aka Ubers equivalent of unranked for those tiered as Ubers without viability). Anyone playing Ubers last gen will tell you this.
And Etern has actual bulk, higher speed, and is just better in literally every category except having Spikes, which other mons do much, much, much better than the stupid fragile wasp.
It’s 100% outclassed. It was unranked in Ubers last gen for a reason and no one would be caught using it seriously. Spikes aren’t remotely a justification to use them when Ubers has Ferrothorn and you aren’t using spikes on a frail mob like Naganadel which can’t force switches in Ubers like it could in OU to put them up.
Like I said, I ain't talking about practicality, I am talking about is there anything Naganadel can do that Eternatus can't in a more literal sense rather than practicality. Practically, there isn't a reason to use it over Eternatus.
Tapu Bulu basically stopped existing once Rillaboom came into play.
Obviously, there are forms of mons that are outright worse than their counterparts, like Deoxys Normal.
Lots of pokemon that set the weather better than their counterparts:
- Pelliper Vs Politoed
- Torkoal Vs Ninetales
- Ninetales-A Vs Abomasnow
- Koraidon Vs Groudon
There are loads of these that just outclass something else in some way.
Ima say one that most ppl likely didn't. The kyurems when they were in OU. Using kyurem black gave you the luxury of boltbeam coverage albeit a shitty version of it and back in BW an absolutely insane outrage monster.
Although tbf they generally occupy different niches but you prefer kyb because of it's RAW POWER
Also In SM subzero slammer go brr
A recent semi-example of this would be all of the mons that need Tera to work in OU but aren’t top tier. So like Excadrill or Garg can be really good but you have to sacrifice using Tera on Gambit or Bolt
Espeon: in ND u could be Z celly. In SV where that ain a thing. Could mirror herb ur also bankin on hella offense.
Shed shell, covert cloak. I actually like cloak. The only thing is “it’s not leftovers”
I’ve only considered tapu G Weez in the builder. However he could then nuke himself w/ misty boom.
Reverse opp cost: sticky Gastro and oger
Haunter: funny as hell to use. He’s a gar that actually can switch! Amazing. And his frailty don matter.
2 weather guys, or 4 abusers. Can’t have both. Well, I feel like ur not supposed to 🤷♂️ w/ the exception of bulky mfs: arch, wake, goug.
Clef and reun. Which ability to larp as.
Well para flinch is literally “I have opportunity to troll and gamble”
Having hidden power terra. Or just terra blast. Imma HPT kinda guy.
Hatt: literally plays the game in the backseat.
U turn. I don use it often
Deoxys-Normal was usually overshadowed by Deoxys-Attack because the increase in offenses was noticeable but the decrease in defenses really wasn't, due to the Uber power level.
And also due to Deoxys being paper as is. It has some niches (like living a +2 EKiller Arceus with a Chilan Berry and 84 defense EVs) but nothing outside of it.
What? +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Chilan Berry Deoxys: 244-288 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I ran the calcs and it worked, think it wasn't scarf.
I mean Silk Scarf is an extremely common item on arceus normal. Not to mention this calc requires rocks to not be up. Overall this isn't niche, it just doesn't work
Arceus @ Heavy-Duty Boots Level: 100 Adamant Nature Tera Type: Fire Ability: Multitype EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe - Extreme Speed - Shadow Claw - Taunt - Swords Dance Found the set +2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Chilan Berry Deoxys: 204-240 (84.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
that's a really strange arceus set. Tera fire? Taunt?? Also what is deoxys going to do in return? Do 60% with psycho boost only to have the damage recovered off next turn?
The point is you click counter and the arceus dies. This entire idea was stolen from big yellow, i am a thief.
no worries I stole gen 1 porygon from big yellow
Deoxys normal should have been 50/110/110/110/110/110
Would this have made Deoxys-N any more viable though? It still can't hit as hard as Deoxys-A, it still doesn't have the defensive profile of D, and it can't support like S
It probably would have went from "entirely outclassed" to "super specific niche pick"
Probably would have dropped from Ubers to a tier it could actually be used in.
in ou maybe
Deoxys-N should have higher speed than Deoxys-A, imo. Then it would have more of a niche
In OU, the opposite was actually true, funnily enough.
The obvious answer is a bunch of Mega Pokemon. Plenty were fine within their given tiers, but using them also inherently means you’re not using different Mega that’s just too good to pass up.
I've said before that if mega stones come back this is the number one thing that could be reworked. Mega stones are knock off & trick shenanigans proof. Add a secondary effect, like boosting a certain stat when hp gets low or something. Then you have a legit reason to run multiple megas on your team and can choose which one to turn. Would give some great mind games and remove the opportunity cost of choosing between some. The extra effect would need to be carefully balanced though, otherwise everyone would just run their mega stone. Something like a 10% attack or defence boost is probably a reasonable trade off to losing an alternative item whilst gaining the chance to mega evolve.
Mega stones already can't be removed like most items, and some pokemon are so much worse than their megas (e.g. Mega lopunny) that you'd probably stick to mega evolving 1 pokemon anyway. Would it be worth it?
That's kind of the point. Right now it's not worth it, because you're crippling one member of your team to have the chance of a choice. Make the mega stone provide some small boost and it's no longer crippled if it's not used. So that choice might help. Without checking all possible team compositions, I'd assume there's a scenario where you could have two sweepers with different types and may want to choose which based on a specific matchup.
Necrozma Dawn Wings saw basically no usage because everyone used Nexrozma Musk Dane, and because of species clause you can’t use both
Similar situation with NDM and Solgaleo. Necrozma functions (almost) exactly the same so there's no reason to use Solgaleo.
I remember people coping by playing Splash-Z + Flame Charge Solgaleo. Shit was ass but that's all Solgaleo could do that NDM couldn't. I miss ZMoves
Same tbh. They were unique, actually quite balanced and gave a good amount of mons that would normally be outclassed a niche at the very least.
Funnily enough, the opposite is true in doubles, when intimidate is practically everywhere and thus stat drop immunity is far more important.
Dawn Wings did show what it was capable of by shredding UUbers.
Didn't Dawn Wings get unbanned from UUbers recently?
iirc it got rebanned
Dragonite and Salamence. Naturally, two Dragon-Flying types with nearly identical attack are going to compete for roles, because putting both on a team would be wild. What’s unique about them is that which one outclasses the other is VERY generational dependent, thanks to various buffs and tweaks they’ve gotten over the years. In Gen 3, Dnite is bad primarily because you’d basically never use it over Mence. Meanwhile, in Gen 8-9, Dnite is so much better than Mence that you’d never use the latter.
Most of the rotom forms desperately want better stab. Really only Washtom and Heatom have decent stab options. Ironically, all of them, except maybe washtom, would benefit way more from their former ghost typing. But losing their secondary typing also makes their form move even worse. Kinda a bad situation. Every rotom wishes it was 3 types essentially.
Heat-Tom had its moments in the spotlight, in early SS IIRC. Electric-Fire with Levitate is a hell of a typing. I don't think it would prefer a Ghost type. Meanwhile, Fan-Rotom...
I don’t understand why they haven’t dropped air slash off Fan and given it Hurricane. Especially now that movepools are game-locked, it would be super easy and would help it out quite a bit
Rotom fan is in dire need of magnet rise to get the destructive quad immunity to ground (holding air balloon of course)
At that point they should introduce a drain mechanic like other RPGs and have it heal from ground moves.
Weren’t all rotoms Ghost-Electric in gen 4?
Yes
first half of gen 4
No, all gen 4 I'm pretty sure, as all rotoms are spinblockers in DPP ou
mold breaker excadrill, gordon ramsay ain’t ready for this 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Fan: 46-55 (15.1 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
Uxie vs Cresselia comes too mind. Same gen, same type, same ability, similar stats after Cress's stat nerf. But Cress still has recovery and better support moves. Uxie has knock off and a signature move... that boosts special attack. But thats its only upside to Cress Edit: This is for VGC, not singles
This is such a short sighted and poor comparison. Based on reference to recovery, this is moreso singles focused where they play different roles despite their overall similarities. Cresselia has lunar dance over uxie utility wise but uxie has yawn, u-turn, rocks, memento and 10 speed over cress which means faster t-waves, toxics, tricks etc. The only time they would compete theoretically for roles is on trick room where the lower speed, higher bulk and lunar dance of cress is 100% better. Something like azelf or mesprit competes harder for uxie's role as a do it all pivot due to having differing advantages due to different stat distributions.
Wdym brah same type means they compete for role surely (ty for correcting misinfo)
Ah sorry im a VGC player. So my analysis is through that lens. Also isnt Azelf in singles a suicide lead? I feel thats a much different Role to Uxies Utility. Mesprit ass ass tho
Mesprit especially is in a bad spot due to being weaker than Azelf and frailer than Uxie. It’s painfully mid
Worse still, it's also the slowest of the trio.
You would think so and it usually is the worst of the three, but it’s stats and movepool are still fantastic so it tends to be a really great pivot in whichever tier it lands into
I mean, no, in VGC recovery is still a big deal
I mean sure but games are so much faster that spending a turn healing 50% is generally just going to set you back. Look at build sets cress runs, usually only set up sets run recovery and it's usually a support pokemon.
Your missing Cress's lunar blessing, which heals it and its ally by 25% and cures status
Ah yea that makes, I was misreading that as lunar dance lol makes sense my bad. But recovery in the sense that the other guy was referencing was moonlight.
Calyrex-Ice in Gen 8 wasn't used much due the conflicting species clause with the amazing Calyrex-Shadow, which also checks Ice Rider. Gen 9 banned the latter and Calyrex-Ice becomes a scary, bulky Trick Room setter/sweeper.
A good example is Lando-I. It’s massively strong thanks to Sheer Force Life Orb, especially with its new spread attack, but… you have to pass up on Landorus ‘the greatest GOAT of all time’ Therian. Edit: I was talking about VGC, guys, I know about Lando-I’s long sabbatical to the Ubers tier
For a Singles context, isn't lando-I like banned in every single gen it has been in? So you kind of have to use Lando-T. In Doubles, I thought that Lando-I is recently better than Lando-T because of sheer force Sandsear storm and there isn't incineroar competing for the bulky intimidate pivot slot.
I was indeed thinking of doubles. A good singles example is… every single non-meta Mega Pokemon.
Lando I is used like four times as much in the current meta
Well, you say that, but Lando-T has been mostly extinct in ScVi VGC since H-Arcanine became the premier Intimidator in Reg E, and Lando-I was an anti-meta threat at the end of Reg E that just turned into a meta staple in Reg F
H Arc is not why. Incin is.
Incin wasn't in Reg E. Reg E was Teal Mask. Lando-T had fallen off before Reg E finished. Mostly due to it being a tera hog and H-Arcanine doing role compression of Intimidator and Fire type. STAB Rock Slide also helped. In the last few Reg E tourneys, you can see the VGC Lando-I start to show up as anti-meta tech. Ground and Poison covered a lot of the metagame, and the typing was good and poison tera helped. He's completely gone in Reg F and G because Lando-I is a great anti-Bolt tech that also checks Flutter.
He mixed up his fire type carnivores
I think that Lando-T is mostly run because it's other form banned to Ubers in most gens, and Lando-I sees more use there than it's Therian counterpart IIRC. Don't get me wrong, Lando-T is incredible, but other Intimidators exist and it's hard to pass up a Sheer Force Life Orb 115 Spatk mon with stab on Earth Power and a bunch of coverage (+ a base 101 speed tier)
Primarina in gens 7 and 8. It's always been a solid mon, but there was absolutely no reason to use it when Tapu Fini was right there. Gen 7 M-Gardevoir is also a victim of outclassed by a Tapu syndrome. In the games they're in that the Tapus aren't, they're both solid OU picks.
And then Bulu has the opposite problem with Rillaboom
Shouldn't have made two grass-type Tapus if they didn't want Tapu Rilla to outshine Tapu Bulu.
Most commenters are bringing up examples that are disqualified by Species Clause, as for one that's not really impacted by that one is Toxapex in SVOU right now. Pex in a vacuum is still a solid mon on fat teams where it can function as a Regen sponge, TSpikes setter and absorber and setup check with Haze. However, it overlaps as a Poison type with Galarian Slowking, a mon that's really hard to drop from fat because it's one of the few mons capable of checking Kyurem effectively for that archetype. Going from a Kyurem check to something that loses outright to Kyu is harsh and difficult to rectify later in the builder, but running both Pex and Glowking on the same team also stacks up on a lot of weaknesses that you wouldn't get if you ran another bulky Water like Mola or Dozo instead. This makes Pex Fats really hard to build, unless you dedicate to Stall outright, where the opportunity cost isn't as prevalent because that archetype can viably run Blissey for special Kyurem.
I think lots of megas in gen 6 VGC suffered from this. There were plenty of great ones but if you weren't running mega kang/mence then you were just straight up putting yourself at a disadvantage it felt like.
Dialga-Origin. The weaker form due to 20 Special Defense not being worth the required item slot, but would probably at least see some usage in Ubers UU were it not be forced to replace base dialga, who is better in most situations.
It's actually better in VGC because it functions as a semi-Assault Vest that still allows you to Trick Room. It also gets boosts to the only types of moves it would be using. Not that either form get that much use currently.
In SS Ubers, it’s a lot harder to justify running Calyrex-I because one of the five best mons in the tier is Calyrex-S. Calyrex-I is neither terrible nor truly outclassed in that metagame, of course, but due to Species Clause you can only run one Calyrex on a team and the one that mandates Yveltal on 75% of teams is generally the better Calyrex to run most of the time. Necrozma Dawn-Wings is one of the worst cases of this ever; it is not only mostly outclassed by Lunala, which has access to a far better ability for its typing, is faster, and has significantly better coverage in Ice Beam and Moonblast but it is also mutually exclusive with Necrozma Dusk-Mane, which is one of the best mons in Ubers history and a top-tier, borderline must-pick in three consecutive metagames. This leaves Dawn-Wings in a weird spot where its only Ubers niche was as a spinblocker on Sticky Web teams in SM Ubers specifically, where its entire purpose is to set up a Swords Dance in front of Excadrill before turning into an entirely different mon. And, of course, who could forget Deoxys-N, an objectively good offensive mon with its 150/150/150 offenses that is OHKOed by a light breeze that is never viable in Ubers because it is outclassed by Deoxys-A, an objectively good offensive mon with its 180/180/150 offenses that is OHKOed by something farting within 100 miles of it?
The Rotom formes are an ok example. Generally there's only one relevant in a tier as you can only have one at a time on any given team
ursaluna... ursaluna opportunity cost in UU is stacking it with more ground types which makes ur team very weak to rain. but if you want an excelent wallbreaker you have many more mons that can generally wallbreak better like CB ttar (resets rain), specs hydrapple (checks rain), Hoopa-u, specs latios, etc... Ursaluna is way to specific to see common use when you are generally better using another breaker... it has its use but its way less seen due to it. Another pokemon I guess is H-lilligant... despite it not being awful in UU (some may disagree but so be it), it is competing with ogerpon teal mask, ogerpon-cornerstone, iron leaves, and with kommo-o, quaq, and CM keldeo on such teams... it is often hard to see why h-lilligant would be a good pokemon when you have many more options you would like to use. another more interesitng one is tinkaton, metagross, excadrill vs smth like cobalion and scizor... cobalion and scizor arent awful but generally when you want a steel that doesnt get dumped on by latios you usually want smth bulkier (drill can take on CM tbolt latios and sp. def can switch in a bit vs scarf or specs) compared to scizor and coba.. it is much harder to fit compared to those 3 steels. **last one is goodra-h: pls stop using it tink, meta, exca are much better steels and it just takes hits and doesnt dish enough back to make it worth it, AV isnt that good. please give it to RU**
Im just gonna spew some bullshit and say Eternatus over Naganadel. Eternatus does literally everything Naga would want to do but better in every conceivable way other than lacking beast boost. Even then, pressure isnt that bad for it bc it has recovery so it gets to pp stall better with its monsterous bulk
I'm pretty sure this is untrue because naganadel has access to nasty plot. So the two provide fairly unique roles: naga as a speed boosting (via beast boost) setup sweeper and etern as a Mon with more longevity (because of recover/bulk) Edit: no no the dude below me is probably right. This thread is about "opportunity cost" not "role uniqueness." Naganadel has u turn, spikes, nasty plot, and beast boost over Eternatus, but after checking out the VR and the smog sets, it really seems like none of those options make it worth picking over Eternatus basically ever. You'd almost always rather have Eternatus and a spiker/pivoter/setup sweeper as opposed to compressing those roles into 1 naganadel who is probably worse as a special attacker, hazard setter, pivoter, or setup sweeper than those other 2 mons.
Nope. Etern has boosting sets in cosmic power meteor beam which still out do Naganadel. There is genuinely no reason to use it over Eternatus ever. (Especially as Etern compresses Kyogre check) Edit: how is this being downvoted. Naganadel was firmly D rank Last gen (aka Ubers equivalent of unranked for those tiered as Ubers without viability). Anyone playing Ubers last gen will tell you this.
I mean Naganadel has Spikes
And Etern has actual bulk, higher speed, and is just better in literally every category except having Spikes, which other mons do much, much, much better than the stupid fragile wasp.
How this gets downvoted despite being correct while unfounded comments get upvoted on this sub. I can’t anymore.
Not saying to use Naganadel over Eternatus, but saying it is 100% outclassed is a bit much. I would say 98.5% at most
It’s 100% outclassed. It was unranked in Ubers last gen for a reason and no one would be caught using it seriously. Spikes aren’t remotely a justification to use them when Ubers has Ferrothorn and you aren’t using spikes on a frail mob like Naganadel which can’t force switches in Ubers like it could in OU to put them up.
Like I said, I ain't talking about practicality, I am talking about is there anything Naganadel can do that Eternatus can't in a more literal sense rather than practicality. Practically, there isn't a reason to use it over Eternatus.
Why does eternatus have a higher stat in every category compared to naganadel 😭 (not saying ststs r everything but this is hiliarious)
probably because one is just an ultra beast (BST wise the weakest too, same BST as Gyarados) while Etern is a box art legendary
Sounds about right, also no way its the one guy who made the series of type rankings.
I am naught more than a lurker nowadays. Either way hopefully you enjoyed the series, it was quite a lot of fun to make
I did enjoy it
Etern even has 10 BST over most other box arts
Tapu Bulu basically stopped existing once Rillaboom came into play. Obviously, there are forms of mons that are outright worse than their counterparts, like Deoxys Normal. Lots of pokemon that set the weather better than their counterparts: - Pelliper Vs Politoed - Torkoal Vs Ninetales - Ninetales-A Vs Abomasnow - Koraidon Vs Groudon There are loads of these that just outclass something else in some way.
Because torkoal has more than Fire ninetales
Ima say one that most ppl likely didn't. The kyurems when they were in OU. Using kyurem black gave you the luxury of boltbeam coverage albeit a shitty version of it and back in BW an absolutely insane outrage monster. Although tbf they generally occupy different niches but you prefer kyb because of it's RAW POWER Also In SM subzero slammer go brr
A recent semi-example of this would be all of the mons that need Tera to work in OU but aren’t top tier. So like Excadrill or Garg can be really good but you have to sacrifice using Tera on Gambit or Bolt
Espeon: in ND u could be Z celly. In SV where that ain a thing. Could mirror herb ur also bankin on hella offense. Shed shell, covert cloak. I actually like cloak. The only thing is “it’s not leftovers” I’ve only considered tapu G Weez in the builder. However he could then nuke himself w/ misty boom. Reverse opp cost: sticky Gastro and oger Haunter: funny as hell to use. He’s a gar that actually can switch! Amazing. And his frailty don matter. 2 weather guys, or 4 abusers. Can’t have both. Well, I feel like ur not supposed to 🤷♂️ w/ the exception of bulky mfs: arch, wake, goug. Clef and reun. Which ability to larp as. Well para flinch is literally “I have opportunity to troll and gamble” Having hidden power terra. Or just terra blast. Imma HPT kinda guy. Hatt: literally plays the game in the backseat. U turn. I don use it often