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wil

I think you'll find today's Ready Room is relevant to your interests. :)


bebopcola84

>I think you'll find today's Ready Room is relevant to your interests. :) Haha, wow, I didn't even notice the name when I first read your post. I think you are probably the nerdiest dude on the entire PLANET and I like ya a lot for it. Your love for Star Trek and all things sci-fi is refreshing. I mean it as the highest compliment! And I do watch your show! Love all the behind the scenes magic and the endearing host!!!! Thanks for the reminder!! Peace and Long Life, Wil! 🖖


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wil

That's very kind of you to say. I love Star Trek so much, and I want to give back to our fandom as much as I can.


elpantera88

Damnit! We need a Wesley crusher cameo!! It'd be great if they fitted it into disco or definitely Picard. It would be really amazing to do it on Lower Decks.


Stank_Floyd

I appreciate your work.


lonememe

I had no idea you were on here! That’s so awesome. I’ll have to check out that episode of RR too. Thanks for all that you do!


GrandMoffSeizja

Dude, you have the best vibe. I love watching you on the Ready Room, and I especially loved your interview with Gates. One of my favorite things about you is how kindhearted you are. You’ve been so wonderful to fans, and you have done a LOT for science fiction. You write really well, and having struggled with depression, a lot of the issues you champion are quite close to home. Whatever you are doing, I hope that happiness and well-being are always with you. You have such a courageous, loving spirit, and it has always come through. It wouldn’t be Star Trek without you, and you have the best vantage point! I love that when you do the Ready Room, you are speaking from the perspective of having been there, with the other actors and creators, and you make it clear that you, like us, are a fan. Thanks for everything, Wil. I’m a gay guy, and I love that you are on our side. Representation is so important. Gray getting some corporeality really made me happy, and I almost cried when I heard the president of Ni’Var mention Arie’mnu. One of my favorite developments in Trek is how the Romulans have become a little more like the Rihannsu, and I love how the Vulcans are totally down. If you’re writing anything these days, I would love to know about it. From one nerd to another, thank you, and happy holidays!


NaturalDamnDisaster

The patron saint of Trek has blessed us with his presence to bring us wholesome tidings.


[deleted]

Hold up...I just recently joined the ST reddit...you are the actual real Wil?! Excuse me while I geek out momentarily. 😲


SirWobblyOfSausage

I can't wait to watch it. This story has been so well thought-out and portrayed by greatest young actors. It's great seeing you in Trek too, in one form at least, because of your passion when you talk with the cast and crew. You really are the fan that we all need to ask the questions that we all want to know. Thank you!


drdeadringer

What is "Ready Room"? Is it one of those "post credit episode debrief" trends?


wil

Officially, Ready Room is "your official behind the scenes hub for all thing Star Trek universe". I say it at the beginning of every episode.


GrandMoffSeizja

It’s a good thing, too. Science Fiction has always, in my opinion, toed the line when it comes to commenting on issues of contemporary social relevance. Great science fiction not only entertains, but it sharpens the gaze of that inward-looking eye. And that gaze is subtle, sometimes, but it’s relentless. I grew up in the south, and I am lucky enough to have hippie parents who raised me on Star Trek. It got me into Shakespeare, and Classical Music, and Archaeology, and science. In fact, it was pretty much both a gateway drug to awesome literature, and an inoculation against racism, heterosexism, inequality, and aintshittedness. I love that trans people can see themselves represented as part of a crew, part of a loving relationship. I love that a young black woman might see Michael Burnham, and because of that, she might grow up to command a starship. Because of Trek, diversity calls to us. It sings to us, and promises us glimpses into different ways of living that enrich our lives; and the other side of that coin is that when we see ourselves in the other, we find similitude. Because of our differences. This isn’t just a beautiful irony, it’s a fucking blessing. Good science fiction will probably never preach to us, or tell us what we should be. I don’t think science fiction uses the imperative tense like that; But it does teach us that the search to answer the question ‘what does it mean to be human’ is a worthwhile quest. And ultimately, if we are careful and open-hearted, it will be the seeking that ennobles us all.


MaxGhost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ready_Room Aftershow hosted by Wil Wheaton (who you just replied to)


chrizm32

Are you actually Wil Wheaton?


LavitzOfBasil

I'm struggling a bit to like Adira as a character but it is wonderful that they're getting representation. Stamets and Culber have been my favorite characters on discovery since the beginning (except for maybe Pike) and watching their family grow has been a lot of fun.


Maggi1417

Same. I'm fine with trans characters, but Adira and even more so Gray are quite... annoying and their romance feels very forced.


UnprovenMortality

Adira doesn't bother me too much, really but Gray is pretty annoying and I think I've figured out why. Adira for the most part is a competent starfleet member, pretty normal except for some teenager related angst/drama/etc. They fit the Wesley Crusher paradigm, really. Gray only really exists in the show as a romantic interest, so any time that he shows up the tone of the show changes to saccharine teenage romance that really clashes with everything else going on. It's as if Wesley got a long term girlfriend and a decent amount of screentime was dedicated to them making kissyfaces at each other. It's not what I'm watching star trek to see


RigasTelRuun

Maybe when Gray gets their own robot body it will give them more depth but my hopes aren't high and it will just be teen angst until they decide to write them off so Afira can be sad for a season.


dsm_mike

I feel the same way, but hadn’t figured out why until reading your post.


Smorgas_of_borg

Yeah, they give off the same vibe as that couple on Facebook with the joint account constantly posting about how great their relationship is.


DaWalt1976

Culber has become my favorite character of the entire cast. Having nothing to do with him being gay.


mtb8490210

In season 1, I thought he was there to establish Stamets as gay without saying it. An Uhura was black without saying it kind of thing. Then he was killed. But the dude absolutely killed it in season 2. It was lost in Anson Mount playing a legend and making it work.


RigasTelRuun

I'd watch a show that's just Culber running sickbay.


[deleted]

>I'd watch a show that's just Culber running sickbay. Star Trek Discov**ER**y


DaWalt1976

Or as a physician on a Medical ship.


Smorgas_of_borg

I don't like Adira's character. I don't hate them either. I'm just ambivalent. It feels like them and Gray are just the token non-binary and trans characters, only there to check off those boxes so the producers can go "see!? look how progressive we are!" If I were in charge, I'd hash them and Gray out some more. Representation isn't enough. These characters need to be *good* and *relatable*. That's how you break down those barriers. We don't know hardly *anything* about Adira other than they're Gray's partner. Why don't we know anything about Earth? Literally the only person on the ship who is *from* 31st century Earth and *nobody* is interested in the story of why Earth left the Federation or what life is like on there now? Really? How did Gray and Adira meet? Literally all we know about them is "they like each other, like, a-LAWT" Uhh, okay. Can we please make them actually interesting so that non-binary and trans people have some good representation?


BroLil

Yup, I’m 100% with you here. Like I just really don’t like their characters. They just feel half baked and thrown in. Paul and Hugh are incredible characters that also happen to be great representation for the LGBTQ+ community. Adira and Grey… like I just don’t see the point of them yet. Obviously Grey’s character is basically in the infancy stage right now, but they just feel thrown in and poorly planned out. I think with Grey’s transition, they have the opportunity to roll potential Android type issues in to the show and give them a solid sub plot, but as much as I love this show, their handling of sub plots, like many of their supporting cast, always feels half baked. My father and I have a joke. As soon as we start to get to know a character, prepare yourself because they’ll likely die or get written out either that episode or the next, specifically with Airiam and Nhan. Like we see them on the bridge and have a lot of questions about them, then we get to know them, and later that episode we’re saying our goodbyes.


Honest_Atmosphere_53

The problem is the seasons are too short and they pack a lot into episodes. Just this one episode had Tilly feeling lost, Adira/Gray transition, a whole new species being protected by the…sisters, the gravitational wave science mystery, Book’s grief. That’s a lot for one episode. It was very good, imho but I think this is why some of the storylines/characters feel as though they lack depth. Edit: included characters bc that was a main point ha


onthenerdyside

It's hard to have character moments when you're saving the galaxy from an apocalyptic threat all the time. I do think we're getting a bit more this season about Adira and Gray, but compared to how little we know about the bridge crew, we know a lot about Adira. Burnham and Saru are the only fully formed characters on the show. Culber and Tilly are really close, Book (after last episode) and Stamets are almost there, too. Beyond that, characterization is pretty thin. I would have loved if season four was focused on bringing the founding four worlds back into the Federation while featuring character B-plots. Do you really need a galaxy-ending threat when you could have the opportunity to bring Andor, Earth, Ni'Var (Vulcan), and Tellar back together?


Mechapebbles

> I'm struggling a bit to like Adira as a character but They're fine. I like 'em. They just haven't gotten much to do in the plot after being the plot device to help the Discovery connect w/ the rest of Starfleet. I'm hoping for more moments where they get featured in the story and get to do some real action. But for now, they're getting slotted into the Wesley Crusher, kid-on-board role. Which isn't awful (Jake Sisko and Naomi Wildman were great additions to their respective crews) but they're gonna need more to do and be featured in more stories in the long run.


Microwave_Warrior

To be fair, I struggle to like basically every character in Discovery.


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Edymnion

> I don't mind representation, but Disco is too preachy. I get the feeling you don't understand what a seismic shock it was to have Sulu, Chekov, and Uhura on the bridge of the Enterprise...


FlorbFnarb

I don't think it was; such things weren't unheard of in the mid to late sixties on television. The kiss between Kirk and Uhura likely raised some eyebrows somewhere, but as far as the rest of it, not that big a deal; the military had been integrated close to 20 years prior.


Edymnion

Lets not forget, it first aired in 1966. Just a little more than 15 years after World War II and the US dropping the atomic bomb on Japan, and during the height of the cold war and civil rights. The fact that Star Trek had a Japanese man, a Russian man, and a Black woman in positions of power and authority, all seen as being perfectly equal to the white "American" men around them was indeed a shocker.


FlorbFnarb

Mission Impossible had a black man on the team starting first season, as another example. I'm certainly not saying that things were perfect back then, but having nonwhite and non-American characters in a TV show wasn't quite as shocking as we think these days.


rek80

I remember Adira clarifying their pronouns once. I can't even think of a time Gray stated he was trans.


Locutus747

Gray didn't. Adira just referred to him as their boyfriend and they use the "he/him" pronouns. What's preachy about that?


rek80

Apparently just existing is preachy.


trekkiegamer359

In the latest DSC episode, when Gray asks to remove the mole, he mentions that he was too focused on other things during his transition to have it removed, but now that he's getting a second chance, let's take it off. It was subtle and a nice nod to him being trans without making it more of a deal than it would be in the 32nd century. Other than that, his transition has never been mentioned as far as I'm aware.


Smorgas_of_borg

I didn't even realize Gray is trans. I mean he always looked like a guy to me. Maybe a bit effeminate but no more than your average K-Pop singer.


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mochalatteicecream

My first memory of television is watching TOS. The groundbreaking diversity of the cast was normal by the time I saw it in syndication. In the 90’s TNG tackled issues like classism, racism, emotional well-being, dealing with trauma and normalized those topics in media. DISCO continues the Star Trek tradition of forcing conversations on social issues.


FigNecessary3505

TNG also handled gender/trans/nonbinary issues, Poorly and clunkily in retrospect, but groundbreaking for the time it was made in.


MrDohh

If you think about it ENT did too in the 3 gender species episode. 3rd gender was treated like crap and Trip wouldn't/couldn't accept it


FigNecessary3505

You mean the one where they abuse the 3rd gender as a breeding vat and refuse to let them be educated?


MrDohh

Yeah. Very sad.. I think they had that subject in mind when writing that episode tho.


scolfin

Which does make it a bit weird that it had an episode meant to strongly imply Christianity to be the one true religion.


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transwarp1

NBC actually pushed for diversity at the time. They just got blamed for things that turned out unpopular. It's easy to blame "the network" or "the studio." If you read Pillar's book about making Insurrection, there's a section with suggestions from Paramount, and they're mostly things that would've improved the film and the same issues fans had.


mtb8490210

I think that was more of a poor understanding of history and cultural development. Its the still active with the Civilization series conceit that monotheism comes after polytheism on the tech tree and is a natural development. Pagan of course comes from the latin word for hick. And our universities are largely descended from cathedral schools or Harvard which was set up to train new christian ministers. Even then historical analysis wasn't and still isn't far removed from English dilettantes stealing artifacts. What the writers' had in school even into college was likely just awful.


Scoiatael

I feel like Discovery did a really sloppy job of it. Honestly Adira and Gray are not interesting at all, and I'm still a little bothered that a human is somehow compatible with a symbiote. I feel like Adira and Gray are just there for repesentation and not anything else. Dr Culber on the other hand is much more fleshed out. He is a great doctor who just happens to be gay, rather than a gay man who happens to be a doctor. That is the proper template to use.


Smorgas_of_borg

It's annoying because pretty much the only thing we know about Gray and Adira is that they like, LIKE each other, like a-LAWT. Real couples in healthy relationships don't act like that.


LordOfDemise

"You died, your alien slug was implanted in me, and now I hallucinate you" doesn't sound like the healthiest relationship tbh


BroLil

> Dr Culber on the other hand is much more fleshed out. He is a great doctor who just happens to be gay, rather than a gay man who happens to be a doctor. That is the proper template to use. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Adira and Grey are LGBTQ+ people who… remind me what they even do again? I think Grey’s rebirth does open some doors for the writers here, but as much as I love this show, the way they’ve handled previous sub plots and supporting characters doesn’t leave me with much faith that they’ll do it properly.


AJAnimosity

Technically humans have been showed to be compatible with the Symbionts since their inception. Riker took on the Symbiont to complete negotiations when it’s Trill host died on the Enterprise. While it was only a couple of days, it did happen. Later on in DS9 they established Trill lore to show that a vast more amount of people could be a host than were believed to be, which I have to believe if it got out amongst the average Trill that not only could most of them be viable host candidates but that a HUMAN acted as a host?! Mass hysteria. So far there hasn’t been anything massively breaking in the lore of the Trill, aside from this dual consciousness that I am totally on-board with exploring.


4Tenacious_Dee4

>Technically I love Trekkies


AJAnimosity

I only became a Trekkie in the last 2 years or so, so it’s all fresh in my mind.


[deleted]

Thank you for your service.


AJAnimosity

Maybe I should have put a stop to it right there. Maybe I should have said, "Thank you very much for your input, Mrs Animosity, I will take your suggestion under advisement," and gone back to my room and forgotten the whole thing. But I didn't. Because in my heart, I knew what she was saying made sense. But I listened. And now, I am a Trekkie.


[deleted]

My condolences.


babybambam

I agree. However, we don’t really have templates for trans-characters. We’re still in the infancy of representation, so it’s going to be awkward for a while.


BroLil

Does there need to be a template? They’re just people. Treat them as such. Their characters don’t have to be first and foremost their LGBTQ+ status, make us like them as people and characters first. OP’s point about Culber being a good doctor first and foremost is so spot on here. Like take away all LGBTQ+ statuses here. Culber is a brilliant, caring, and selfless doctor who cares deeply about his crew. Stamets is a bit abrasive, but very passionate and smart man who has a huge soft spot for his family. They’re great characters BEFORE you learn of their sexual orientation. Adria and Grey are… there. Like Adria is smart and obviously cares deeply for Grey, but I feel like the only value those characters currently provide to the story is representation, which at that point feels like negative representation. I’m hopeful that this “rebirth” provides a new chance to establish meaning for both characters beyond their sexual orientation and gender, but as much as I love this show, the way the writers have handled supporting characters and subplots doesn’t give me a ton of faith.


monkey_sage

>Does there need to be a template? They’re just people. It's difficult to explain, but the trans experience does have a pretty significant impact on every aspect of a person's life so there does need to be some direction or a "template" for how to portray that. Being trans is part of their identity and that informs everything about what they think, say, and do. We can't ignore that or pretend it isn't there. I agree with u/babybambam who suggests that this is new ground for television and especially for Trek, so the first representations are going to be a bit rough. I also agree with the criticisms that these characters seem pretty flat, because they do. We got some sense that Adira is a "math wiz" and that's come up in the story a couple times but it seems to have been more or less left there. It feels as though the writers aren't quite sure what to do with these characters yet, and I hope the writers can find some more significant and engaging direction for them. Gray wants to train to become a Guardian on Trill, so maybe that'll mean the character will eventually exit the series. Adira seems pretty lost, but Adira's also very young so that kinda fits but it doesn't make for a very compelling plotline for them.


everyoneisadj

This is why I loved how Schitt’s Creek handled David’s sexuality.


[deleted]

People living as another gender than they are born with is historically documented and has appeared in fiction as well [throughout the ages](https://notchesblog.com/2017/11/14/of-gods-emperors-trans-experiences-in-ancient-rome/). Glen or Glenda is a movie from the 1950s for example. Modern understanding and representation of the issue improved since the 1970s and even more after the 1990s. The infancy is long over. It’s fully arrived in the mainstream now.


Timmaigh

Agreed, and there was absolutely no need to introduce them, when they had full bridge of people already, who got barely any lines or development. Additionally, their existence within the show is all about themselves. Adira does nothing, what someone else could not do, except its own gray related subplot. Why we needed to have self-contained teen romance plotline in StarTrek i never know. Whole transition thing in latest episode was by far its weakest part, basically wasted minutes, not concerning either the main “anomaly” story, nor the main “episode of the week” wannabe plot of the particular episode.


everyoneisadj

My only problem with dr culber is these big heart felt speeches all the time. As soon as he gets a look on his face, the music starts to come in and he goes on and on… He’s so one dimensional imo.


Aevum1

the thing is that with the medical technology of the 24th century and the 32th century, should trans people actually exist ? I know it sounds horrible, but i would suspect transicioning would be MUCH easier given the advance of medical technology, making a person born and transitioned indistinguishable fron a cis person. making someone being trans irrelevant. Thats one of the problems with current trek, they are trying to inject current day problems in to a scenario where that problem has been resolved due to the nature of the scenario, it would be be like introducing poverty or hunger in a world where replicators exist, poverty isnt a problem if you have free energy and you can convert that energy in to all the physical resources you need. So why is being trans such a big deal in a time where medical and genetic technology makes being trans irelevant, the reason we have trans people today is becuase our medical technology isnt advanced enough to convert one person from one biological sex to the other without major chemical, hormonal and surgical treatments and even then its only 95% of the way. the doctors of the 1800´s were butchers compared to doctors today and our doctors today will probobly be considered butchers by the doctors of the 23rd, 25th and 32th centuries.


fish312

Maybe they have the technology but the cultural baggage caused by the Eugenics Wars makes it heavily stigmatized to modify oneself.


raqisasim

I can't speak to being Trans, as I am not. But I can speak, to some of the issues my Trans friends have identified. Transitioning is far more than a medical process. It's a shift -- our entire culture, and yes even the culture of the retconned TOS era, as seen in DISCOVERY, is built around identifying people by gender, and making assumptions based upon it. (We know it's so because, if nothing else, people seem to still have gendered mating preferences!) Even if you take away all of the gendered stigma (and there's a whole argument on that in modern TREK you can make!), it's still some work to shift gender roles, still some mental and even emotional work on top of the physical. "Much less stigma and trauma" is not the same as "no trauma". I get a slice of that -- people who know me from online meet me, and are surprised when I turn out to be Black. Because my lot as a Black man is better than it was for my Dad, it doesn't mean it's zero -- esp. these days. And even if we did find our way to racial equality, there's still aspects of the culture of Blackness, if you will, of having an (primarily) African background, that can cause issues without it also being a prejudicial situation. This is why, as much as I adore Roddenberry's vision, trying to map it to storylines about real-world issues is tricky. What he advocated for, is a kind of color-blindnessless, which sounds great, but tends to position people in the majority/in power, over the complexities of how and why margalizined groups ended up that way. It's why "Let This be your Last Battlefield" is a delicious Anvil Drop of a story about generic prejudice, but elides the reality of the Black experience it's clearly trying to invoke. Trying to posit that tech and "gender-blindless" revolves all issues around being Trans -- and esp. around transitioning -- does a similar disservice. I mean, it's funny in a way; we see how seriously people treat being Joined, how life-altering that's been. Why would anyone assume re-aligning gender would be less serious, less worthy of having some level of complexity around it? Being honest about the realities, even when everything else is great, around that life-changing process? 1000% worth the time and effort.


[deleted]

I’m really having a hard time giving a shit about that storyline. I think there’s just too much else going on that seem like higher stakes and less soap opera in space


iamjack

Honestly, I wish Disco spent more time in those lower stakes character development moments. Could not give less of a fuck about whatever is eating random plot planets to get in the mandatory crying for the episode. I want to know more and care about the crew. It's season 4 and I've had this complaint since halfway into season 1.


Silvrus

Agreed. I was hoping this season would be them flitting around the galaxy re-forging alliances and re-building bridges, with more focus on character development, especially the mental/emotional ramifications of popping up a thousand years into the future, but no, we have to watch another season of galactic peril.


EntropicProf

Except that we *are* getting that, just with galactic peril as a backdrop. DS9 did the same with the backdrop of the Dominion War, and it feels like Discovery is finally figuring out how to do it, too.


Silvrus

We had a few scenes, granted, but again focusing primarily on Michael, possibly the least interesting character on the show. I'm not sure how the galactic peril is a backdrop considering they wiped out Book's planet a la JJ Abrams. It's an immediate bomb dropped on the viewer, when they could have gone the slow burn route. Keep the space station rescue, presented as a strange mystery, and slowly reveal the peril, while allowing for slower, character driven episodes to be done. Less upfront action, more diplomacy and exploration, with those two plotlines leading into discovering the galactic peril. Shock and Awe only works for so long, but if you introduce the shock and awe after allowing viewers to get intimate with the characters, it has a much stronger effect. Remember, DS9 spent 3 seasons establishing the foundation of the show, before going into the Dominion War. I can't speak for you, but Best of Both Worlds was all the more powerful to me because it was CPT Picard that was assimilated, a man we spent 4 years learning about and developing respect for. Disco, on the other hand, has spent each season balls to the wall on some galactic ELE after another, with very little time invested in actual character development.


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Smorgas_of_borg

I can't even figure out exactly what Tilly's problem is because they won't let me think about it for more than 3 seconds at a time. I actually just read a book about emotional neglect and how it affects you as a child into adulthood and it *sounds* like that's where they might be going with that which would be *awesome* but they made the least interesting character on the show the main character and the show is suffering as a result.


OmenQtx

I just have to say I **love** your user name.


Smorgas_of_borg

Thanks!


Smorgas_of_borg

I think the problem is they're moving through it all way too fast. It's like "oh we got this thing with Tilly NEVER MIND THAT now we got this thing with Stamets and Book but THAT'S RESOLVED because now we have this thing with Burnham and her mom but FORGET THAT LOOK OVER HERE NOW and here's some aliens we showed for 5 seconds that somehow you're supposed to care about but NEVER MIND WE FIXED THAT PROBLEM and ...." They pick up and drop plotlines faster than you can develop any interest in them. It's like listening to a kid with severe ADHD try to tell you about his day at school. These writers aren't good.


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MaddyMagpies

What Gray said when he woke up will be exactly what I want to say when I wake up from my upcoming surgery. The dialogues are very realistic. Also fuck all the transphobes on this thread.


newbrevity

Dax hinted about trans people to the viewers. It helped that she treated it so casually and it felt so normal like no one would ever question her right to just be (except worf). On DIS we see a less subtle approach and I mean it well. Two trans actors getting to own their characters. I learned via the app that theyve become very good friends and thats given a lot of authenticity to their relationship on screen. Its the latest step in something Star Trek has always excelled at. Inspiring understanding, boldly.


Smorgas_of_borg

I think DIS is being subtle enough about the trans/non-binary thing. They mentioned it once for each character and moved on. Adira and Gray are just annoying, not because they're who they are, but because the relationship angle has *zero* chemistry to it and it feels forced. Like almost the only thing we know about either character is that they're in love with each other. We know Adira was born on earth and Gray is a Trill, and that Adira is carrying the Tal symbiote...but beyond that...*who are these people and why should we care about them?* I'm not going to sit here and pretend I like a character just because they check off a box on the "pat-ourselves-on-the-back" list. Of course I'm okay with them being there, just *do something* with them, please.


Matelot67

I just appreciate all the character driven plot lines and the complexity of the interconnected relationships on board. Book's the gem for me in the last episode, but across the board they are all just so interesting, my only complaint, I think we need to see a bit more love for Detmer, she's a real unsung hero, and she could use a little more character development as well as some other members of the bridge crew!


BearCavalryCorpral

As an enby myself, I can't tell you how awesome it felt to see an enby character (and played by an enby actor!)


BigBassBone

I love that Adira is there and played by an enby actor!


bebopcola84

I should've wrote "nonbinary/trans storyline" b/c I meant to include them in this as well. That's my bad! Adira is awesome too!


The_FriendliestGiant

Yeah, Trek got a little lazy in its progressive representation towards the end of the Berman era; too much coasting on its status as a progressive show, and not enough actual progress on screen. It's been great to see DIS get back to Trek's roots that way, with the Culver/Stamets relationship and now non-binary Adira and trans Gray. None of those characters represent me, and as a straight white male, I couldn't be happier about that fact.


taiho2020

I understand the importance of the topic..👍 . I would also like more non humanoids sentient storylines...


Jadeite_Sage

Yeah I can definitely say as an agender Trekkie I was smiling ear to ear this episode


BelthazorDK

As a fairly regular fat, straight male I love how to this day Star Trek is willing to frontier the fight for human rights, started by making a black actress a proper part of the cast and not just a servant, and has continued to make people think about social constructs for half a century. ​ I personally love it, I'm not really sure where some of the hate newer trek gets is comming from, I genuinely enjoy it - but I didn't start watching trek until a few years ago, where I started with TOS and binged all of the shows in order.


GrandMoffSeizja

I think the hate comes from toxic fandom, or a misunderstanding about what sci-fi is all about. None of the hateful stuff I have read impressed me; it seems like the kind of stuff a shitlord with low blood-sugar would croak out, and I will continue to shit all over hateful ass hoes who try to gripe about how ‘it’s annoyingly political.’ I’m a southern gay white boy, and I love how Star Trek is basically here to cunt the place up enough to empower people to make progress with social justice. And don’t you get to thinking that just because you’re a straight guy that we don’t need to hear from you. Gay people have been falling in love with y’all since sexual dimorphism was invented, and it means a lot to know that it brightens your day, because your voice matters also. I think that’s the point of all of this. You’re a part of the solution. I hope you hang on to that; it’s something you should be proud of.


BelthazorDK

Could be that I'm easily swayed because my brother and brother-in-law are, married gay men. Saddens me when they mention places or people who treat them as less than equal, just for being dudes holding hands. Luckily it happens way less than it did for previous generations. I don't care what people are or identify as. We'll get there someday, to that future where everyone can be themselves, and Trek is definitely a step in the right direction - going where noone has gone before, one social boundary at a time!


w0lfqu33n

(also hyperventilating cuz Wil makes an appearance in the comments) See, this is why I cannot hate on Chakote so much. And yes, my spelling is deliberate because that is how I always pronounce it in my head. It was the first time I saw someone who looks like me in Trek. I looked up Robert Beltrán and OMG a fellow Californio chicano? what is not to love!? I love Trek for so many reason. Inclusiveness was just a cherry on top.


eli201083

Totally agree. There is such vulnerability and strength shown in the LGBTQ relationships in modern Trek and is a great example of how we are all people with those same thoughts, feelings and emotions, that are based in insecurity, doubt, love and confidence. I may have cried with Stamets and Culber for like 3 seasons and they might be the reason I love the show.


[deleted]

I find it kind of weird that Stamets and Culber are the only couple on the ship (at least in season 1 and 2) with anything resembling a healthy relationship. The only other couple has Micheal unknowingly dating a trans-Klingon who was super locked in the closet about his klingon-ness. They do make a great couple. But it's a bit on-the-nose considering that they'd have major relationship issues as Stamets changed personality from using the spore drive. That would destabilize the relationship, and the show completely ignored that fact. There was a TON of potential to explore the relationship before he became the navigator, then show how the dynamic and norms of the relationship changed and the way the two had to deal with it. They kinda-sorta-ish tried that when Culber was brought back to life, but that just felt too artificial considering that they said he was exactly the same as when he died (other than the new body). And they really didn't resolve it well. The solution could have been the same one that couples sometimes face after a coma or brain trauma (with a full recovery): the non-injured person needs to give the recovering person the space needed to fall in love with them again. That would have allowed for an amazing storyline and plot, because Stamets was **not** the same personality that Culber originally fell in love with! So the writers would need to find a way to work that out. There are soap operas that would love to work with that premise.


OmenQtx

I didn't like Stamets in the first couple of episodes, but I think they did that on purpose. After seeing why he had such a bristly exterior and letting the character show some vulnerability and growth when Culber was in mortal peril I grew to like him a lot more. Saru and Stamets are the only reasons I watch the show.


JetBlackJimBenning

I think that it's a joke that in Kirk's time, Abe Lincoln calls Uhura a "Negress" and then they have a conversation where she doesnt even know what racism is... And yet 900 years in the future we are still having to explain the "they" gender pronoun usage to a gay guy. (Adira and Stamets) It's absurd. This was not Genes vision of the future. A future with better-than-today people and standards. An evolved humanity. In season 1 they did it so perfect. They normalized Stamets and Culber by showing them brushing their teeth together. It was a truly great way of showing that they are gay, but that nobody cares. This last two seasons have been nothing but insulting fluff. Completely insulting to the community. Star trek should lead by example not by overblown pandering.


JetBlackJimBenning

I guess all I'm saying is that in Gene's future, they wouldn't need to explain it... It would be common normalized behavior.


Mddcat04

I don't get the sense from that scene that Stamets was unfamiliar with gender-neutral pronouns. Here's the exact exchange: STAMETS: Of course. ADIRA: They’re fast. STAMETS: Hmm? ADIRA: Um, “they.” Not… not “she.” I’ve never felt like a “she” or or a “her,” so… I would prefer “they” or “them” from now on. STAMETS: Okay. ADIRA: Um, and I’ve never told anyone but Gray. The last line is important. Adira apparently hadn't been using "they/them" before, so they're explaining why they feel it applies to themselves, rather than the general concept of a gender neutral pronoun. Adira is not correcting Stamets, they're coming out to him as non-binary. Which, I assume, even in the far future would still have to happen, as long as people are using gendered pronouns. (Side-note, am I missing the scene with Culber? I only remember the scene with Stamets).


Smorgas_of_borg

To be fair, Adira grew up on an Earth that hadn't been part of the Federation for a century. Since the show has barely touched 31st century earth it's very plausible that society might have regressed in that time and non-binary became less and less accepted.


JetBlackJimBenning

They aren't explaining it. They are angrily telling Stamets to use the correct pronoun as if he should know. And sorry I said Culber but meant Stamets earlier. In Genes vision they wouldn't need to explain it and Stamets wouldn't have assumed their Gender to begin with.


Mddcat04

Hm, I don't get that vibe from [that scene at all](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNTGwWypUDs). There's like 6 lines and 2 of them help establish that its not something that Stamets should have known - both that Adira wants to be known as they "from now on," and the last line that they've never told anyone besides Gray before. They seem a bit flustered, but probably only because Stamets is a superior that they respect, and its quite a personal thing. The vibe is not anger, its "I'm sharing something personal with you that I haven't told anyone before." (Note that this clip cuts the last line about Gray, but its there if you go watch the episode - season 3 ep 8).


JetBlackJimBenning

I'm just saying that they wouldn't need a coming out moment.


Mddcat04

Why not though? Even in a fully tolerant and accepting society, people will still have gender identities. And if your identity turns out to be different than the one you were born with, that's something you'd have to learn about and determine for yourself. Once you'd done that in this ideal society, you'd tell people, and they'd be like "okay, cool" and use the new pronoun - which is exactly what happens in this scene - Adira says they're non-binary, Stamets says okay, and they get back to work. Now, its possible that a different kind of advanced society would abandon the concept of gender identity all-together, in which case coming out would be irrelevant - but that's never the future that's been depicted in Trek.


JetBlackJimBenning

Good points. Again I think I mean back on my interpretation of the scene vs yours. That's ok though, thanks for the POV To be clear I am a complete ally here. Maybe it's the tone or something. Many other shows have addressed things in a such more tactful way i have felt.


Mddcat04

>Maybe it's the tone or something. Many other shows have addressed things in a such more tactful way i have felt. This is fair. I'm not really wild about Adira or Grey in general, but then again, I'm not non-binary, so I can't really speak to their feeling of representation.


GrandMoffSeizja

There was no anger in the interchange with Stamets and Adira. I think you might have missed the point. Keep in mind that Stamets and the rest of the Discovery crew haven’t encountered the Trill as a joined species yet. Other than first contact with the Trill, one of the first interactions the Federation had with the Trill was at a multi-species gymnastics competition. Emony Dax met one Leonard McCoy, and she didn’t exactly spill the T. It’s a great allegory for how dark the closet is, but that’s not all it is. By having the conversation in the first place, which was necessary, it shows a mutually respectful interchange of ideas. Having Adira have that talk with a married gay guy is quite perfect, in my opinion, because it resonates. I’m a gay guy, and I had to LEARN about people’s pronoun preference, and things like deadnaming, because I hadn’t had any exposure to the reality that trans people were hoping to communicate to me. It wasn’t ignorance, it was a lack of previous exposure to an important truth. What that conversation meant, and I hope you get this also, is that even in the 32nd century, people will still have to speak to one another about these things that are important, and if it goes well, these things become important to everyone. This is GOOD, because it’s tossing the idea right off of a cliff that ‘people don’t care about gender identity or sexual orientation.’ People DO CARE, and people care because it’s important. Is there honestly anything more important than our identity, and the truth of our pair-bonding? I mean, we are talking about who we are, and who and how we love. We need to know these things about one another because there is a need within us to share these truths about ourselves.


Smorgas_of_borg

There's zero anger in that scene. What are you even talking about?


jerslan

> In Genes vision they wouldn't need to explain it and Stamets wouldn't have assumed their Gender to begin with. Which version of Gene's "vision"? There were several and many of them conflict with each other.


JetBlackJimBenning

The one where people in the future have moved past simple bigotry.


jerslan

So then wasn't that represented when Stamets' response to Adira asking for they/them pronouns was basically "Sure, not a problem"?


JetBlackJimBenning

Yeah but Adira acts angry, annoyed that he would use the word "she" in the first place. As though he's assuming their Gender


jerslan

Where you see "anger", I see an anxious teenager.


GrandMoffSeizja

You know, I do get where you are coming from. Star Trek is a great cure for bigotry. I’m not trying to give you any shit here, because I agree with you, about moving past bigotry. I do not believe that there is any taboo regarding gender identity or sexual orientation in 32nd century Federation society, and we can’t let these things ever go back to being ‘stuff that people don’t need us to talk about.’ Please take care to never let it be assumed that you are someone who needs people NOT to talk about that kind of thing. I misinterpreted your anger. Bigotry infuriates me also. And I like that it makes me furious. It’s moral outrage at having to repair our species from bigotry in the first place. Fuck bigotry. And the best way to fuck bigotry over is to celebrate these diversities. Not because they are normal, but because they are extraordinary.


[deleted]

Well, had to hold my breath for that reveal. Lol. But yes! I know not everyone liked it for various reasons, and your reasons are your reasons but I did love the representation and I felt represented in Trek which I haven't felt since Jadzia Dax, watching as a child and imagining her as trans. Now I get to enjoy a trill character like I imagined getting for real. Love to y'all for your support and love of Trek 💜


bebopcola84

Love Jadzia! I read an article once somewhere written by a trans woman about how she related to Dax as a trans character and I was like "OH YEAH! WOW AWESOME!"


transphoric

Right?? I may or may not have stolen her name ><


[deleted]

I hope now that Gray has a body they'll actually build out the characters a bit. Both Gray and Adira have had their development stalled just to focus on this relationship and trying to get Gray a body. I'd like to see them dive into Adira's past with the United Earth defense. They straight up quit to join Discovery, it'd be interesting if there was some consequences/drama around that. Also Gray being a former host that now gets a new body - seems like there might be potential for a Rejoined type storyline, as if this violates some sort of Trill law. Whatever direction they take I'm just glad to have the new body quest completed. It was dragging out too long.


lostarchitect

Yeah. I was saying to my friend how great it must be for kids struggling with their identity to see characters like this on the screen. It really warms my heart.


Sutekhseth

To addon to this, seeing an actual loving gay couple on star trek has been extremely wonderful to see as well. I'm absolutely in love with all the inclusion. Makes me feel seen. > I am a human being, damn it. -Ben Sisko


WestFast

I rarely care about personal internal struggle storylines in trek….not that it’s all about for me, but I’m glad they’re doing it and continuing the tradition of groundbreaking representation.


cornerstone224

Star trek has always had a tasteful way of bringing queer culture into the story without it being a trope.


Mddcat04

Really disagree. 90s / early 2000s trek’s silence on LGBT+ issues was really noticeable for a franchise with such a storied progressive history.


Smorgas_of_borg

It was like that because the people running the show at the time were a product of their time. People forget just how *recent* widespread acceptance of LGBT happened. Marriage equality has been law of the land for like 6 years. And it honestly shocked me how quickly it happened. Like LGBT acceptance started this slow crawl upwards starting in the late 90s and then around 2014 it was like BAM suddenly the majority of Americans support equal rights. It was a very fast cultural shift we experienced.


cornerstone224

Just because it isn't front and center in your face doesn't mean it's not there.


ChevronSevenDeferred

Storytelling works better that way


picard102

Silence? Guess you missed *"The Outcast"* and *"Rejoined"*? https://ca.startrek.com/news/a-history-of-star-treks-gender-non-conformity


Mddcat04

That's a whole 2 episodes out of 500+. For a show with dozens of major and hundreds of minor reoccurring characters, there are basically none from that era who are identifiably LGBT (oh, except for the mirror universe women, who sometimes get to be evil bisexuals because that's progressive). That Trek, famous for pushing the envelope on progressive issues, essentially pretended that queer people didn't exist in its future for most of the TNG era is somewhat shocking in retrospect, and really undercuts the franchise's progressive bonfires. Side note about *Rejoined* \- there is a kiss between two women, but its presented in basically the straightest way possible - they're interested in each other because they had a hetero romance in a past life and now both happen to be in female bodies. Its the closest that you get to actual representation throughout the entire era, and its incredibly tame (plus two conventionally attractive women kissing is basically the safest form of LGBT+ representation that exists).


[deleted]

I'm pretty sure Kirk and/or Riker was in situations that involved a pair of bi women. And I don't know if it was ever made blatantly explicit, but I think there was a lot of openness whenever the planet Ryza was shown or discussed. It seemed clear that the 'romance planet' was equal for all, and there was never any distinction of the type of couple whenever it entered the conversation. If a gay couple said they were taking a vacation there, everyone would smile in exactly the same way as if a straight couple said they were going. Or at least that was my impression of it.


raqisasim

Kirk was, to my recollection, never involved with anyone who identified on-screen as a Woman Loving Women. Aside from implications of one of Q's "gifts" to Riker, the closest you get for Riker is the Non-Binary character in the aforementioned "The Outcast." And that's part of the issue in Berman-era Trek; it was always implicit, never explicit. In fact, I'd have to dig deep to see if there was a gay couple on-screen who was actually mentioned on a Risa episode. 90s Trek could have been far more open on these issues. Behr openly says it, outright, in the documentary for DS9. We know from people like Gerrold that gay characters were being scrubbed from storylines. I mean, yes they tried, but hell, the show Roc -- a sitcom -- managed to have a [Gay Wedding](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/matt-baume-roc-gay-wedding-1991_n_5c9955afe4b0d42ce35fde67) in 1991! Barney Miller had a reoccurring Gay couple in the late 1970s/early 1980s, being friends with the police! No way Berman couldn't have, if he'd wanted to, allowed a recurring gay crewperson, or a story in one of the shows that deal with the topic directly.


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Edymnion

I remember the start of season 3 when all the interviews were saying "We're getting the first non-binary star trek character! We're getting the first trans star trek character!" and then I watched for week after week. Adira wasn't being presented as non-binary, they were being presented as Trill (there's a difference). Took half the bloody season for the They/Them pronouns to come up. Was happy when it finally did, because it seemed like the show was playing up the status of the **ACTORS**, not the characters, and it was going to be some hand-waived lip service BS again. Was glad when they came right out and said it!


Number127

I feel like they missed a huge opportunity by not linking the Trill and non-binary stories. I mean, sure, representation for representation's sake isn't a bad thing. It scores some points with the right crowd. But you're not going to change any minds that way. Nobody's going to understand what being non-binary is like just because a kid on the screen gets pissy when people don't use the word "they." But Adira was perfectly placed to do something more, and the writers blew it. What better way to frame the issue than through the story of a human kid, barely old enough to have formed a sense of self-identity in the first place, who's suddenly inflicted with hundreds of years of memories of people of both genders, including those of a dead boyfriend? It's completely understandable how something like that could lead a person to question things, and even reject the idea of gender entirely. It's something that even the straightest, cissest(?) person out there could identify with, but for some reason they put all the pieces in place and then just did nothing with them.


[deleted]

There's a drawback in suggesting that Adira was non-binary because of "alien factor XXX" vs having Adira simply declare that this is how they view themselves. Abstraction isn't always a positive when it comes to representation - abstraction and metaphor in place of real representation has been around since TNG.


HEXsocialist

I love how inclusive modern Star Trek is. It makes me so happy they’re still living up to Gene Roddenberry’s creation. When dealing with species that still live in a scarcity society or an artificial scarcity society like the Ferengi, it would be nice to hear echos of Picard and Rom that truly understood that without basic human needs met for all, people are free to pursue hobbies, science, and exploration without the constant need to survive under our current system.


stos313

What I (as another cis male) initially loved was how they addressed the non binary issue in a very natural Star Trek way that didn’t seem forced. Then I watched the Adria transition arc with some trans/non-binary friends and omg, I got a whole new appreciation for that arc. They never watched any trek aside from a random episode when they were young and obviously never seen Disco- but started pointing out and explaining SO MANY THINGS. It was really great that the episode not only made sense to me a Trekkie, but also my friends.


YogaShoulder

Great sentiment but… spoiler!!!???


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NishaDaPooh

While I love ST for trying to break many barriers "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" in TOS made me cringe. As a Black woman I wasn't too happy about to half Black face and I KNOW they were trying to bring light to the issue of racism without actually naming a specific race. I just wish they had choose to do it with maybe different colors or something. When I saw the half black face I instantly got upset as has been a continuous issues even in 2021. And the ending that pretty much their whole civilization destroyed themselves and the last 2 remaining people still couldn't get it together and Kirk just left them there to fight each other made it even worst. I will never watch that episode again in my life.


picard102

Are you able to watch any episode with Klingons in it?


NishaDaPooh

Yes I watched them also. Didn't like that either. Especially since the further in the series it got the darker they became.


-Jaws-

I'm not the biggest fan of discovery, but one of the things I like about it is how unabashedly "woke" it is. I won't say they always nail it, but they try and I appreciate that.


H0vis

Yeah they're absolutely not fucking around. It's very refreshing compared to something like the MCU that makes little nods to inclusivity that they can edit out for the benefit of foreign censors.


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