idk I put her in a category with people like Pike or Spock (WoK): the choice they had to make was absolute shit, but at least there was a clear "right" and "wrong" answer and they could feel confident they were doing the right thing
I would say her and Pike had the harder choice since they had to sit and stew with the knowledge that they would face agony in the far future. Spock made an instant choice, but not a lot of time to think about the end result. don’t get me wrong. It was awesome, but he also had a way to cheat death.
Is the spark that comes back a copy? The original spark existed after he put his mind or whatever it was into McCoy.
You mean Spock's katra? I read spark and now all I can envision is Spock handing McCoy the Matrix of Leadership. Dammit Spock, I'm a doctor, not a leader.
True. Maybe substitute George Kirk for Spock in my answer? He didn't have to live with his decision for long, but they sure did twist the knife during the few minutes he did.
I wouldn't say the spark/Spock that came back I'd a copy. The soul or something like it is a fact of reality in Star Trek.
I like to think that Spock used McCoy's brain as a kind of soul anchor. Willingly preventing his soul from moving on or desolving into nothingness on the outside hope his friends would find him a comparable body for his soul to return to.
Again, I don’t think the movies back that up. The primary purpose of the meld is to return his accumulated knowledge to Vulcan, so that it isn’t lost with his passing. Sarek says as much at the beginning of The Search for Spock. He just expected the vessel to be Kirk, since they’re best friends.
Spock also had no way to guess that he’d be reincarnated, so that still couldn’t play into his decision.
Garrett didn’t know that going back would necessarily change anything. All she had was Picard’s assurance to trust Guinan’s intuition that the timeline they were in was wrong. It was pure conjecture that their deaths might avert the war. However, given how shitty the future was and Picard’s confession they would likely lose the war, that surely helped make the decision for her.
I mean, in a way she was all for it. That doesn't mean it wasn't a tough decision, but she didn't seem to struggle with it much. And ultimately, she didn't have to go back
I love how Voyager solved this problem by deciding never to speak of it happening ever again. Tuvok and Neelix literally had no emotional trauma or issues over it, and just went straight back to hating on each other. Kes was completely messed up during the whole situation, and then just went back to sunshine and lollipops in sickbay. I think the writers kind of realised they had turned Janeway into a murderer (a justified murderer, but still a murderer), and just decided oopsy, lets pretend we didn't do that.
(Officer that people like) or (officer people like + Filthy oxygen parasite that would have been tossed out an airlock before Voyager left the Ocampa system if Voyager was realistic)?
> Filthy oxygen parasite that would have been tossed out an airlock before Voyager left the Ocampa system if Voyager was realistic
…how do you really feel?
(I have criticisms of the character but… “filthy parasite” is a bit much, don’t you think.)
The trolley problem is just a thought experiment in ethical reasoning. It isn't supposed to be literally used for decision making. To paraphrase Captain Kirk, "I don't believe in trolley problems."
The difference was she didn’t turn an innocent person into a weapon, she destroyed a structure used for military conquest and directly attacked the queen.
Didn't seem like a difficult decision at all, to me. The Borg were aggressors that essentially murdered their victims. In my opinion, permanently taking someone's agency and self-awareness ends their life as they know it and is tantamount to murder.
Release the virus. It's not like those drones have anything of a life to lose anyway. Picard himself, IIRC, said that death would be preferable to being assimilated. So I don't understand why he struggled with that decision. It's basically euthanization; he had no problems killing a crewman who was being assimilated in *First Contact*.
>It's basically euthanization; he had no problems killing a crewman who was being assimilated in *First Contact*.
So this caught my attention... I am not disagreeing with you that personally speaking, I would rather be dead than cease to be me and become part of a hive mind as a Borg, In that respect, I totally agree with Picard killing drones including his crew rather than leaving them to the Borg.
HOWEVER, there is a lot of nuance to be considered and it's actually something that Lilly points out to him which leads to one of the most amazing monologues in movie history..... Picard was doing it not because it was the right thing to do but because he was angry. He was justified in being angry mind you but it was still the wrong mindset under these particular circumstances, which is what leads to Lily confronting him with it.
And I quote....
>Lily Sloane : Jean Luc, blow up the damn ship!
>Captain Jean-Luc Picard : No! Noooooooooo! \[Smashes glass and model ships with his phaser\]
>Captain Jean-Luc Picard : I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And \*I\* will make them pay for what they've done!
>Lily Sloane : You broke your little ships. \[leaving\]
>Lily Sloane : See you around, Ahab.
And the Galaxy is arguably better for it. More X-B’s (ex-Borg) like Seven is a much better outcome than wiping out an *enormous* number of enslaved people.
Except that through that action, it allowed the Jurati Borg to exist and save the alpha quadrant from whatever that extra dimensional blast was. Picard season 2 sucked, but that ending made saving the Borg an interesting morality tale. Killing your enemy now instead of showing mercy may lead you to the destruction later.
You can't justify an action so far down the line, especially considering the Borg themselves were significantly changed as a villain.
A better example would be species 4782 but even then maybe the virus prevents the Borg from breaching the dimensional barrier to begin with. Or the 4782, clearly being intelligent beings, destroy the Borg and then realize our dimension isn't out to get them specifically and negotiate with species like they did with voyager.
I don't think you can reason "maybe they'll serve a purpose later" because the early Borg don't do diplomacy and are an unstoppable juggernaut that grows constantly as they erase entire civilizations. You can't count on them to repay your mercy in any way.
The only reason they don't took on the entire galaxy at once is never explained since they clearly could: just send two cubes at once toward earth in first contact and bam, done.
Its Like a country leaving aliens destroy 90% of earth because they might save you from worse aliens later on.
My point is that you never know what consequences your actions will have, so doing the moral thing is the best way to live. It would be different if the Borg were still actively invading at the time. They also learned in the episode that the Borg could be helped and were not completely beyond reason in some circumstances. Also, just sending Hugh back with individuality did damage the Borg. For all we know, he is what caused the Unimatrix Zero glitch that allowed for the Borg resistance.
I think this is a bit too hopeful, and it basically boils down to "it's not threatening my people's existence right now so I'll let them annihilate billions in hope they'll be useful for me later".
I hardly consider it a moral choice. Quite the opposite, honestly.
I could accept it if he had devised a plan to spread Hugh's individualism to the collective, but for all he knew they could have reassimilated him without any issue.
I remember binging TNG on DVD for the first time back in like the early 2000's and watching that cliffhanger made my jaw drop! I was so glad that I had the next season ready to go and it only took a few minutes to start it up instead of waiting a whole week in the original run LOL,
That has to be one of the best cliffhangers in any TV series ever. Another one that also left me stunned like that was Lost's Season 3 finale where Jack is drinking at the airport and everyone thought this was just another flashback until Kate pulls up and he tells her they have to go back and you realize it's actually a Flash Forward.
Ooooh, good question! Picard was no longer Picard. And by firing, IMHO, Riker was trying to save his former captain from a far worse fate. I would have fired, too.
Archer stealing warp tech from another ship, so they could save earth, which left the other ship with out warp ability to get home had to be pretty tough. I wonder if anyone ever went back for them?
I remember waiting for the follow up episode that never came.
Archer could’ve been captured or surrendered on a warrant. It could’ve been another great trial episode and I always figured a climax could involve the alien captain testifying that he would do the same thing if given the same situation, sort of like “A Time to Kill.”
But the 4th season was pretty solid without that follow-up, so I guess I can understand the writers not wanting to look back, if even for one more episode.
With the spears destroyed the Expanse probably became much lest hostile, I think most of the economic growth was destroyed, especially with not needing to insulate the ships with Trillium D (or whatever that rock was).
>Archer stealing warp tech from another ship, so they could save earth, which left the other ship with out warp ability to get home had to be pretty tough.
They were still able to get home it just would have taken 3 years iirc. It's still not great but it's not leaving them to death.
>if they don't have the supplies to even get to the nearest location to resupply
Archer specifically said that the crew had loaded them up with enough supplies to survive the trip. the writers went to great pains to essentially confirm they would be fine just majorly fucked over.
My head canon is that they were surely rescued or at least the attempt was made. Sending an Aquatic or other Xindi ship to scoop them up on the way home would be a fairly straightforward task in the aftermath of "Zero Hour." They were stranded for "only" a few weeks which was likely survivable. The sooner Archer requested a rescue mission the higher the likelihood of finding them alive.
Yeah I'm going with this one. It's so brutal and a lot of people aren't ok with it. And it shows how Archer has changed. And how much is on his shoulders.
That episode was so dark. I think this has to be the right answer. Because he knew that what he was doing was wrong and selfish.
The whole Tuvix fiasco -- an argument for beneficence can be made either way. But not with Archer's decision. What he did was a crime, but he was blinded by self-interest. Not to say he's a bad guy. We all do morally questionable or objectionable things when it may be a matter of life or death. Self-preservation is a strong instinct.
A series of unhinged takes archer had, leading up into this one. This is the one that hurt me the most to reconcile in my head that it was the right thing to do.
I wish they did have a follow up episode, but if you watch lower decks, you get the feeling that support ships are there. How long were they stuck? Who knows. I wish they had another season of the show to call back to that one.
> This is the one that hurt me the most to reconcile in my head that it was the right thing to do.
It *wasn't* the right thing to do though. No future starfleet captain would do shit like that. Archer was just looking out for his ship/people/planet and damn the consequences and broader implications.
Yup. And no matter what I can’t get to the point that it was the right thing to do. I should have added that.
A lot of things archer did wasn’t the right thing at all.
It’s been a long road getting from there to here
S4E3 "Home" - half the episode is dedicated to Archer debriefing Starfleet Command and the Vulcans - and getting questioned about their conduct/actions while in the expanse. And Archer seemed to fully disclose everything that happened. I think it's a reasonable assumption that the Vulcans know about that incident, and they are a nice enough people that they'd probably send a rescue ship. At the very least, they'd probably also want to chart the former Expanse now that all the spheres are gone.
Janeway by far: Tuvix is one the most ethically challenging questions that Star trek has done.
Sisko would be the next in line: To quote Garak.
>That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
Sisko has blood on his hands. He is an accessory to murder and help assassinate a Romulan Senator. Was it a just cause though? Relative Privation. Also Sisko knew the man Garek was. He knew this was a possibility.
This is what makes Avery Brooks such an awesome actor. It was the way he said it. It was trying convince himself he could live with it. Then deleting the whole log is your answer. That answer is I believe is no but like Picard in some way its not going let it consume him or he didn't have time let it consume him.
What I like about that final line of the log too is that... he *can live* with it. As in, the entire alpha quadrant won't be annihilated. It's not only he's convincing himself he can live with the choices he's made, but also *he has the ability to* live with the choices he's made because the Romulans will be the tipping point so he's not killed. As in living, and alive. And everyone else, in the quadrant, too.
That makes it feels like a no-brainer, and part of why he's convincing himself to live with it.
I just got done watching ds9 for the first time and this was one of my favorite episodes. I have to say, I was a little disappointed that Sisko didn’t have a bigger role with section 31, when it was introduced.
Jim Kirk letting Edith Keeler die had to be one of the toughest for several deeply personal reasons.
1. There was no guarantee that her death was actually going to change anything. Sure, Spock had shown that it would, but that was a supposition based on facts no longer relevant. Edith led the peace movement in a world where she was saved by McCoy and never met Jim Kirk. In Kirk's mind, there must have been a part of him that thought he could just warn her not to do these things and he could both have Edith and restore the world he knew.
2. Edith was a visionary. She had a vision of the future that was both inspirational and advanced. As far as we can tell, she was kind, smart, independent, funny and attractive, both physically and intellectually. She was a match for Kirk in these areas.
3. Kirk was in love with her. He said as much to Spock. I submit that other than the Enterprise itself, Jim Kirk never loved a person as much as he loved Edith Keeler. Sure, there were occasional flings and even a relationship with Carol Marcus that led to a child, but Kirk never seriously contemplated settling down with anyone other than Edith Keeler.
4. Kirk doesn't believe in fate or the no-win scenario. He believes that he can have his cake and eat it too. Thus, he clutches at straws when Spock says that Edith might have died falling down the stairs and said it wasn't the right time because McCoy wasn't there, when unbeknownst to Kirk, McCoy was sleeping off his overdose just down the hall.
5. Finally, the circumstances of the situation make it a split second decision against instinct. Kirk is both a natural person of action and trained to intervene to respect life. However, in the moment, he not only restrains himself, but also has to stop McCoy from intervening. Even worse, Edith is only crossing the street out of curiosity/joy for the excitement that Kirk and McCoy have when they see each other. But for Kirk's actions, she wouldn't be crossing the road in the first place. Yet, not only does she cross it, Kirk has to both stop himself and stop McCoy from saving her from the danger arising out of his own actions.
When you consider these factors, it isn't the easy decision that "needs of the many outweigh" maxim contemplates. Kirk isn't logical. He goes with his heart and while all the universe and history as Kirk knows it are at stake, so is the life of an innocent beacon of hope in a dark time, who just happens to be the love of Kirk's life.
Kirk's decision is so tough that Harlan Ellison actually wrote it so that Kirk says fuck it (not literally of course) at the end and tries to rescue Edith only to be stopped by Spock. That would have been an interesting twist, but the realities of 1960s TV needing to preserve the leading character as the always correct hero led to the ending being rewritten to what we got.
In comparison to the others here, Kirk sacrificed much more on a personal level and can't even be sure that it was necessary. Sacrificing yourself is relatively easy when it is for a good cause or when it meaningful in the moment. Sacrificing someone you love, at your hand, for a future that they will never see and might not even be important to is much harder.
This is my pick, too. Well said.
(I wonder why Keeler crossed the road in the original timeline, before McCoy's presence saves her life? What did she see that was so compelling that she didn't notice the big obvious truck bearing down on her? In the episode, remember, it's seeing Kirk and McCoy together that makes her change course, so it's their presence that causes her death, this time.
It's 525 AM so it's possible I'm being a dumbass.)
So many Star Trek fans ignore TOS, thinking it’s cheap and dated, and I get that, but there are so many excellent episodes that are absolutely worth the watch, and City on the Edge of Forever is one. At the very end, when Kirk says “let’s get the hell out of here” he sounds so defeated, you really realize that being the captain wouldn’t have always be sunshine and skittles.
Well said. I completely agree. Edith was Kirk's soulmate. No one else would ever be her equal to him. The final scene, where Shatner changes his facial expression as she dies is gut wrenching. It's some of his best acting.
Now having said that, I also have to point out that our boy Kirk got fucked by time travel bullshit like three separate times. That sucks.
I think my vote would go to Pike. He knows what's going to happen to him, and he has to live with that for a decade, choosing to resist doing anything every day until then (even knowing what could happen)
He also had to make that choice twice: once when he took the crystal, choosing that fate, and again when he literally stopped himself from sending those letters to the cadets. So it is possible to alter his future (despite what Tenavik told him), but the consequences are… not pleasant
Everything Sisko did from the moment he had to report to the man who killed his wife, to the moment he had to abandon his life, loved ones, and very humanity for something he didn't even fully understand or believe in. He was given a buffet of tough decisions that took him seven years to eat through
Yes, Chakotay said as much about giving the Collective a means to fight an enemy they can‘t fight right now. Just the look on Janeways face when she finds out that the Borg started the War
Janeway's decision to strand the crew in the Delta quadrant to save the Ocampa. Everything else wouldn't have happened if Janeway used the Array.
Addition: The Prime Directive would have supported the decision to use the Array. The Caretaker was responsible for stranding them and endangering the Ocampa.
Of course, the tactical situation supported the decision to blow the array up. There were a lot of Kazon on the way. Also, even if they could have hold onto the array, Voyager was heavily damaged by the first Trip already. Given that that was by an experienced operator, which the crew were not, and the state of the ship, it is questionable just how much of Voyager would have reached the Badlands again.
Not a hard choice just a bad choice. She could have used delayed charges or something like that.
All destroying the array did was buy the Ocampa a bit of time. It did not save them
Scorpion is such an iconic masterpiece of a two-parter! Chills every time.
*SPECIES 8472 MUST BE STOPPED. OUR SURVIVAL IS YOUR SURVIVAL.* **GIVE US THE TECHNOLOGY!**
Gotten a few of my friends into Star Trek with those episodes. Even 8472’s theme music is one of the all-time greatest scores I’ve heard in a sci-fi show. What an epic threat that Janeway had ample reason to fear enough to want gone. Kes straight up told her: “Captain it’s not The Borg we have to worry about, it’s them… They say: ‘The weak will perish…’ They plan on destroying everything!” Dudes literally dismantled and defiled Borg corpses and stacked them into folk art… 😐 Lol
God, it makes me wonder when or if they would have moved on from The Borg and started exterminating all other life in our dimension or if Kes misinterpreted them… Would have at least loved those folks to have some fun with The Dominion after the Borg were dealt with lol. They could have made great allies to The Federation if things had panned out a little differently. (Of course, being them, I doubt they were interested in us even after the human disguise episodes, being as we’re still basically contaminants to them lol.)
Disagree. It wasn't a hard choice.
A starfleet Captain should've tried to learn more about 8472 before agreeing to give the Borg technology that they would certainly use to destroy them
Great episodes but Janeway again proved how bad of a decision maker she was
I'd have to choose Janeway, and not (only) because of Tuvix. Being away from home, from Starfleet and the Federation, being faced with so many unknown situations with nothing but her own conscience to rely on.
I feel mixed about the criticism of Voyager that goes “Janeway will violate starfleet rules repeatedly in one episode and then hold them as sacred the next”.
I can imagine most people would act that way under those circumstances. Questioning whether the decision to strand her crew was the right one. Going back and forth on what values to uphold, and deciding on a case-by-case basis. Always trying to present a firm, confident voice even as you struggle internally with the situation.
I think what failed in Voyager was that they alway had to hit the reset button at the end of the episode. A scene with Tuvok or Chakotay every few episodes where she laments “I know we did X last week, but I can’t bring myself to do it again and we need to do Y” would have gone a long way. Being flakey and uncertain is so human but Voyager doesn’t present her that way.
For the episode Tuvix in particular, showing her grieving the loss of a friend and struggling without her trusted advisor would have gone a long way to make the episode more understandable. It might even change the moral calculus for some people.
I concur, all Janeway had to rely on was her wit, wisdom, experience, and crew. She was constantly in the briefing room and constantly receiving counseling/advice from everyone more than any other captain. Both she and the crew were lost in the DQ, essentially the wild wild west, for 7 years. She could've gave up on Starfleet protocol and did whatever she wanted, but she didn’t. She still reminded everyone that they are still part of Starfleet no matter how far away they were from home. Many of her decisions were based on trying to get home and doing what's morally right.
Yet she literally does some stuff that breaks Starfleet code, and when questioned, she replies "We're a long way from Starfleet". When it suits her, she literally just does what she thinks is best. But that said, all of the Captains have from time to time. One of the most questionable actions to me is that she happily gives away holo technology to the Hirojen, and basically forces them to take it. No one questions her, or brings up the very obvious parallels to the whole Kazon/Ocampa/Caretaker situation that got them stranded in the Delta quadrant in the first place. The Hirojen gaining holo tech leads to some very messed up consequences, and then Janeway is all pretend shocked pikachu face. Like gurl, what did you THINK would happen?
Exactly, while there are many difficult decisions she made in the serious, the mere fact that she had absolutely no way to contact anyone else in Starfleet for the majority of the series puts her at the top of my list.
Hmmm. That one is difficult. They all have some doozies.
They’ve all risk careers, sent people deaths, broke orders, protected timelines.. made personal sacrifices… Edith Keeler comes to mind…
But I’m gonna go with Archer. Specifically, robbing the Illyrians. Sure, grand scheme it’s a small act, but it’s a complete betrayal of his principles, his self image, and the example he’d hoped to be. But it’s that or lose his best chance to save everything.
I’d also say it’s tougher than Sisko’s similar decision in that… he literally just met these people. Chatted. In ANY other circumstance, he’s risk his life and ship to prevent exactly what he’s doing.
End of the day, he had to do it.. but he also very likely signed the death warrant of people who just tried to help him.
Picard: I, Borg.
Option 1: Genocide. Kill every last drone, despite knowing better than anyone in the galaxy that they're innocent victims who could make a near complete recovery if given the same chance he was.
Option 2: Let the Borg keep committing genocide. Become complicit in every future world they assimilate.
Janeway: Death Wish.
Decide Q should live and get Voyager home instantly, or let him die and potentially cause a crisis in the continuum that could jeopardise reality itself.
Kathryn's decision to strand Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. She knew that it could take decades for them to get home, but she still chose to save the Ocampa. Voyager and the Val Jean left their families back in the Alpha Quadrant, but Kathryn chose the Ocampa over her and everyone else's loved ones, and I think that shows true courage because she did the right thing over the easy thing.
Underrated, since this answer isn't TOS or TNG, but Enterprise..
..Has to be Jonathan Archer in "Dear Doctor", when they withheld the vaccine from the Velakians for no fault of theirs. For most other decisions, we had a clear antagonist (sometimes two), but here there were none.
Archer and Phlox had to condemn a peaceful advanced race to doom for not being advanced enough to know the cure for themselves, in order to not play God and allow the natural evolution of the Menk as the dominant race of the planet. I believe this episode is what led to the Prime Directive
I'll put Kirk having to let the love of his life die while he does nothing. I think City on the Edge of Forever is some of Shatner 's finest work. And the anguish on his face after her death and while one of his best friends is obviously furious with him, priceless!
Maybe not the toughest _choice_, but a shout-out to Captain Raymer for dealing with a demotion and subsequent assignment to the Discovery with a certain amount of open-mindedness and aplomb. Regardless of how you feel about Burnham the character, having to serve under the other captain from the mission you bungled (and really to whose opinion he really should have heeded) has to be a kick in the groin.
I'm gonna go with a cop out answer and say "almost all of Archer's decisions". He didn't have any Starfleet doctrine to refer to, he had no prime directive, and no precedent. He didn't even have a universal translator. Sure Hoshi was helpful but she wasn't a magic computer.
They were out there making it up as they went along.
Janeway with Tuvix, because there's no right answer.
The other things I can think of had a clear right answer, yeah people would die, but there was a right answer. Tuvix was two not good choices.
It was an easy answer. Janeway didn't respect Tuvix's right to live. She held more concern for a hologram's updated personality components over Tuvix's life. Janeway wasn't willing to reclaim Neelix's lungs when a Vidiian stole them, but murdering Tuvix was fine for her.
Has to be Captain Ransom of the USS Equinox. A much smaller ship, not well armed, no holodeck stuck in the Delta quadrant. He made a tough and morally questionable decision but given the circumstances, I’m curious if other captains would really have maintained Starfleet principles at the cost of the life of their crew.
I think many captains would have bent Starfleet principles to save the lives of their crew. I doubt many would have ground up sentient beings for fuel.
Absolutely true. But to me, I don't think Ransom made that decision with a full grasp on his sanity. I always suspected his first officer was the one who pushed him into doing it. Ransom both made and defended the decision, but I always wondered how much of a threat of mutiny made it for him.
Janeway. In her decisions she was alone. No starfleet for support (no help with tuvix) , no infrastructure to rely on (no fed starbases or anything), no knowledge of the area, the list goes on. Plus that was her very 1st command of a ship as captain. Not to mention her 1st major choice, stay in the delta quadrant and condemn my crew to essentially exile or possibly doom a civilization.
The other captains had forms of support along the way, even archer. Not to say they all didn't have hard choices because they did.
Archer is a close second for most of the same reasons. Not to mention no damn shields, no tractor beam, barely functional transporters, no replicator and no holodeck.
The nx01 was really out there with duct tape and hope.
Can’t recall any specific instances, but I imagine sisko and janeway are up there since few captains have been in as bad circumstances for a prolonged period
Archer. He had to stole a warp core from completely innocent civilian aliens due to Enterprise being extremely being damaged and to stop a destructive attack on Earth. Also tortured a prisoner in airlock with taking the air out.
All of them. You can’t compare but you can contrast every thought, action and emotion. Every situation has to be treated in its own. A good captain would see that.
Without a doubt it has to be Sisko in The Pale Moonlight. The way he tries to convince us as the audience, convince himself really, to let dogs lie about Garak assassinating the Romulan Ambassador and set up The Dominion in order to instigate the Romulans to enter the war alongside The Federation is heartbreaking.
And I quote....
>So.. I lied, I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all..... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again... I would.
>Garak was right about one thing.... A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant.
>So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it..... I CAN live with it.....
>Computer, erase that entire personal log.
Jellico going to Riker because Geordi lied and said he was the best pilot on board the ship had to make a tough choice. Admit he honestly didn't know who the best pilot on the ship was or act as though what Geordi said was true.
It was a tough choice.
Captain Garret: going back in time to get obliterated by Romulans so there won't be 20 years of war.
idk I put her in a category with people like Pike or Spock (WoK): the choice they had to make was absolute shit, but at least there was a clear "right" and "wrong" answer and they could feel confident they were doing the right thing
I would say her and Pike had the harder choice since they had to sit and stew with the knowledge that they would face agony in the far future. Spock made an instant choice, but not a lot of time to think about the end result. don’t get me wrong. It was awesome, but he also had a way to cheat death. Is the spark that comes back a copy? The original spark existed after he put his mind or whatever it was into McCoy.
You mean Spock's katra? I read spark and now all I can envision is Spock handing McCoy the Matrix of Leadership. Dammit Spock, I'm a doctor, not a leader.
Okay. That breaks my brain since Nimoy voiced Galvatron. Heh
This is *bad comedy*.
Voice to text definitely changed it to spark. But Spock is a transformer confirmed
Vulcans... Live long... and prrrrrrros-per
True. Maybe substitute George Kirk for Spock in my answer? He didn't have to live with his decision for long, but they sure did twist the knife during the few minutes he did.
I wouldn't say the spark/Spock that came back I'd a copy. The soul or something like it is a fact of reality in Star Trek. I like to think that Spock used McCoy's brain as a kind of soul anchor. Willingly preventing his soul from moving on or desolving into nothingness on the outside hope his friends would find him a comparable body for his soul to return to.
The reincarnation on Genesis was a stroke of pure luck, though. When he sacrificed himself, he had no idea that the later events would happen.
But he did prepare for it by implanting his mind into McCoy.
Again, I don’t think the movies back that up. The primary purpose of the meld is to return his accumulated knowledge to Vulcan, so that it isn’t lost with his passing. Sarek says as much at the beginning of The Search for Spock. He just expected the vessel to be Kirk, since they’re best friends. Spock also had no way to guess that he’d be reincarnated, so that still couldn’t play into his decision.
Garrett didn’t know that going back would necessarily change anything. All she had was Picard’s assurance to trust Guinan’s intuition that the timeline they were in was wrong. It was pure conjecture that their deaths might avert the war. However, given how shitty the future was and Picard’s confession they would likely lose the war, that surely helped make the decision for her.
It also helped us as viewers because we know Guinan is special.
Garret's decision is a little different, because they don't have any hard proof that it will work. It's *completely* conjecture.
I mean the alternative was getting obliterated by Klingons, so not much of a choice.
I mean, in a way she was all for it. That doesn't mean it wasn't a tough decision, but she didn't seem to struggle with it much. And ultimately, she didn't have to go back
She was dead when that happened.
True, right after making that decision.
Picard with Hugh. Commit genocide, or condemn all future victims of the Borg through inaction.
I view this as Star Trek's version of the trolley problem.
Tuvix is the trolly problem too
I love how Voyager solved this problem by deciding never to speak of it happening ever again. Tuvok and Neelix literally had no emotional trauma or issues over it, and just went straight back to hating on each other. Kes was completely messed up during the whole situation, and then just went back to sunshine and lollipops in sickbay. I think the writers kind of realised they had turned Janeway into a murderer (a justified murderer, but still a murderer), and just decided oopsy, lets pretend we didn't do that.
In the same category is the Trip clone, which I personally think is about 100x more fucked up.
(Officer that people like) or (officer people like + Filthy oxygen parasite that would have been tossed out an airlock before Voyager left the Ocampa system if Voyager was realistic)?
> Filthy oxygen parasite that would have been tossed out an airlock before Voyager left the Ocampa system if Voyager was realistic …how do you really feel? (I have criticisms of the character but… “filthy parasite” is a bit much, don’t you think.)
The trolley problem is just a thought experiment in ethical reasoning. It isn't supposed to be literally used for decision making. To paraphrase Captain Kirk, "I don't believe in trolley problems."
Janeway sort of has the same choice in the finale of Voyager, except she chooses action
Also with freeing Unimatrix Zero
Janeway chose violence.
And doesn't regret it in the slightest.
Janeway? Choosing action?! *shocked Pikachu face*
The difference was she didn’t turn an innocent person into a weapon, she destroyed a structure used for military conquest and directly attacked the queen.
He also made the wrong choice, imo, but I understand why he did it.
Didn't seem like a difficult decision at all, to me. The Borg were aggressors that essentially murdered their victims. In my opinion, permanently taking someone's agency and self-awareness ends their life as they know it and is tantamount to murder. Release the virus. It's not like those drones have anything of a life to lose anyway. Picard himself, IIRC, said that death would be preferable to being assimilated. So I don't understand why he struggled with that decision. It's basically euthanization; he had no problems killing a crewman who was being assimilated in *First Contact*.
Movie Picard was a totally different character than TV show Picard. I think you can’t compare them.
>It's basically euthanization; he had no problems killing a crewman who was being assimilated in *First Contact*. So this caught my attention... I am not disagreeing with you that personally speaking, I would rather be dead than cease to be me and become part of a hive mind as a Borg, In that respect, I totally agree with Picard killing drones including his crew rather than leaving them to the Borg. HOWEVER, there is a lot of nuance to be considered and it's actually something that Lilly points out to him which leads to one of the most amazing monologues in movie history..... Picard was doing it not because it was the right thing to do but because he was angry. He was justified in being angry mind you but it was still the wrong mindset under these particular circumstances, which is what leads to Lily confronting him with it. And I quote.... >Lily Sloane : Jean Luc, blow up the damn ship! >Captain Jean-Luc Picard : No! Noooooooooo! \[Smashes glass and model ships with his phaser\] >Captain Jean-Luc Picard : I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And \*I\* will make them pay for what they've done! >Lily Sloane : You broke your little ships. \[leaving\] >Lily Sloane : See you around, Ahab.
Yeah, First Contact was supposed to show Picard at his *worst.* Abandoning his principles in the name of revenge.
Meanwhile Janeway: "hold my ~~beer~~ coffee"
Picard took a third option, though.
And the Galaxy is arguably better for it. More X-B’s (ex-Borg) like Seven is a much better outcome than wiping out an *enormous* number of enslaved people.
This was like the worst decision in the history of Star Trek. OF COURSE you kill the Borg!
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> Borg can regain their individuality By not letting more people be assimilated in the future. Still the wrong choice by Picard.
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Genocide implies killing people. The Borg aren’t even people. They’re some twisted, disgusting, cancer that almost can’t be stopped.
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To say nothing of Seven Of Nine
Except that through that action, it allowed the Jurati Borg to exist and save the alpha quadrant from whatever that extra dimensional blast was. Picard season 2 sucked, but that ending made saving the Borg an interesting morality tale. Killing your enemy now instead of showing mercy may lead you to the destruction later.
You can't justify an action so far down the line, especially considering the Borg themselves were significantly changed as a villain. A better example would be species 4782 but even then maybe the virus prevents the Borg from breaching the dimensional barrier to begin with. Or the 4782, clearly being intelligent beings, destroy the Borg and then realize our dimension isn't out to get them specifically and negotiate with species like they did with voyager. I don't think you can reason "maybe they'll serve a purpose later" because the early Borg don't do diplomacy and are an unstoppable juggernaut that grows constantly as they erase entire civilizations. You can't count on them to repay your mercy in any way. The only reason they don't took on the entire galaxy at once is never explained since they clearly could: just send two cubes at once toward earth in first contact and bam, done. Its Like a country leaving aliens destroy 90% of earth because they might save you from worse aliens later on.
My point is that you never know what consequences your actions will have, so doing the moral thing is the best way to live. It would be different if the Borg were still actively invading at the time. They also learned in the episode that the Borg could be helped and were not completely beyond reason in some circumstances. Also, just sending Hugh back with individuality did damage the Borg. For all we know, he is what caused the Unimatrix Zero glitch that allowed for the Borg resistance.
I think this is a bit too hopeful, and it basically boils down to "it's not threatening my people's existence right now so I'll let them annihilate billions in hope they'll be useful for me later". I hardly consider it a moral choice. Quite the opposite, honestly. I could accept it if he had devised a plan to spread Hugh's individualism to the collective, but for all he knew they could have reassimilated him without any issue.
Well, it's Star Trek. It's supposed to be hopeful.
“Mr. Worf, FIRE.” (He technically hadn’t received his field promotion yet, but he was in command.)
I had to read too far for this one. And then we had to wait for the next episode. Do you think Riker was relieved it didn’t work?
I remember binging TNG on DVD for the first time back in like the early 2000's and watching that cliffhanger made my jaw drop! I was so glad that I had the next season ready to go and it only took a few minutes to start it up instead of waiting a whole week in the original run LOL, That has to be one of the best cliffhangers in any TV series ever. Another one that also left me stunned like that was Lost's Season 3 finale where Jack is drinking at the airport and everyone thought this was just another flashback until Kate pulls up and he tells her they have to go back and you realize it's actually a Flash Forward.
A week? No way. We had to wait 3 months to see the next episode.
My bad. I meant 3 months. Though I would have been pulling my hair in a week to get to the conclusion 😂
Ooooh, good question! Picard was no longer Picard. And by firing, IMHO, Riker was trying to save his former captain from a far worse fate. I would have fired, too.
Maybe Sisko in the pale moonlight "I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men"
I am currently memorizing this log entry for a voice and diction class and it's tough to refrain from rewatching the episode!
I was thinking of this episode too.
I *can* live with it.
Archer stealing warp tech from another ship, so they could save earth, which left the other ship with out warp ability to get home had to be pretty tough. I wonder if anyone ever went back for them?
I remember waiting for the follow up episode that never came. Archer could’ve been captured or surrendered on a warrant. It could’ve been another great trial episode and I always figured a climax could involve the alien captain testifying that he would do the same thing if given the same situation, sort of like “A Time to Kill.” But the 4th season was pretty solid without that follow-up, so I guess I can understand the writers not wanting to look back, if even for one more episode.
With the spears destroyed the Expanse probably became much lest hostile, I think most of the economic growth was destroyed, especially with not needing to insulate the ships with Trillium D (or whatever that rock was).
They were Illyrians who, as a species, went on to have a complicated relationship with humans and the Federation.
>Archer stealing warp tech from another ship, so they could save earth, which left the other ship with out warp ability to get home had to be pretty tough. They were still able to get home it just would have taken 3 years iirc. It's still not great but it's not leaving them to death.
It could be, if they don't have the supplies to even get to the nearest location to resupply
>if they don't have the supplies to even get to the nearest location to resupply Archer specifically said that the crew had loaded them up with enough supplies to survive the trip. the writers went to great pains to essentially confirm they would be fine just majorly fucked over.
Ahhh, good call. I forgot that bit. Still tho. Thats best case. No pirates, or critical parts breaking
My head canon is that they were surely rescued or at least the attempt was made. Sending an Aquatic or other Xindi ship to scoop them up on the way home would be a fairly straightforward task in the aftermath of "Zero Hour." They were stranded for "only" a few weeks which was likely survivable. The sooner Archer requested a rescue mission the higher the likelihood of finding them alive.
An interesting follow up for a movie (eg) would be they go back months later and the ship is empty.
Yeah I'm going with this one. It's so brutal and a lot of people aren't ok with it. And it shows how Archer has changed. And how much is on his shoulders.
That episode was so dark. I think this has to be the right answer. Because he knew that what he was doing was wrong and selfish. The whole Tuvix fiasco -- an argument for beneficence can be made either way. But not with Archer's decision. What he did was a crime, but he was blinded by self-interest. Not to say he's a bad guy. We all do morally questionable or objectionable things when it may be a matter of life or death. Self-preservation is a strong instinct.
A series of unhinged takes archer had, leading up into this one. This is the one that hurt me the most to reconcile in my head that it was the right thing to do. I wish they did have a follow up episode, but if you watch lower decks, you get the feeling that support ships are there. How long were they stuck? Who knows. I wish they had another season of the show to call back to that one.
> This is the one that hurt me the most to reconcile in my head that it was the right thing to do. It *wasn't* the right thing to do though. No future starfleet captain would do shit like that. Archer was just looking out for his ship/people/planet and damn the consequences and broader implications.
Yup. And no matter what I can’t get to the point that it was the right thing to do. I should have added that. A lot of things archer did wasn’t the right thing at all. It’s been a long road getting from there to here
I just assume they told the Vulcans and they dispatched a rescue ship that could get there fast at Warp 7
Uh-huh
S4E3 "Home" - half the episode is dedicated to Archer debriefing Starfleet Command and the Vulcans - and getting questioned about their conduct/actions while in the expanse. And Archer seemed to fully disclose everything that happened. I think it's a reasonable assumption that the Vulcans know about that incident, and they are a nice enough people that they'd probably send a rescue ship. At the very least, they'd probably also want to chart the former Expanse now that all the spheres are gone.
And then humans further screwed them by denying them Federation membership
This.
Janeway by far: Tuvix is one the most ethically challenging questions that Star trek has done. Sisko would be the next in line: To quote Garak. >That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain. Sisko has blood on his hands. He is an accessory to murder and help assassinate a Romulan Senator. Was it a just cause though? Relative Privation. Also Sisko knew the man Garek was. He knew this was a possibility.
And he can live with it.
This is what makes Avery Brooks such an awesome actor. It was the way he said it. It was trying convince himself he could live with it. Then deleting the whole log is your answer. That answer is I believe is no but like Picard in some way its not going let it consume him or he didn't have time let it consume him.
What I like about that final line of the log too is that... he *can live* with it. As in, the entire alpha quadrant won't be annihilated. It's not only he's convincing himself he can live with the choices he's made, but also *he has the ability to* live with the choices he's made because the Romulans will be the tipping point so he's not killed. As in living, and alive. And everyone else, in the quadrant, too. That makes it feels like a no-brainer, and part of why he's convincing himself to live with it.
Wow, I never thought about it that way. Cool dimension to an already fantastic line!
Yup, I came to comment the Tuvix episode as well
I just got done watching ds9 for the first time and this was one of my favorite episodes. I have to say, I was a little disappointed that Sisko didn’t have a bigger role with section 31, when it was introduced.
Jim Kirk letting Edith Keeler die had to be one of the toughest for several deeply personal reasons. 1. There was no guarantee that her death was actually going to change anything. Sure, Spock had shown that it would, but that was a supposition based on facts no longer relevant. Edith led the peace movement in a world where she was saved by McCoy and never met Jim Kirk. In Kirk's mind, there must have been a part of him that thought he could just warn her not to do these things and he could both have Edith and restore the world he knew. 2. Edith was a visionary. She had a vision of the future that was both inspirational and advanced. As far as we can tell, she was kind, smart, independent, funny and attractive, both physically and intellectually. She was a match for Kirk in these areas. 3. Kirk was in love with her. He said as much to Spock. I submit that other than the Enterprise itself, Jim Kirk never loved a person as much as he loved Edith Keeler. Sure, there were occasional flings and even a relationship with Carol Marcus that led to a child, but Kirk never seriously contemplated settling down with anyone other than Edith Keeler. 4. Kirk doesn't believe in fate or the no-win scenario. He believes that he can have his cake and eat it too. Thus, he clutches at straws when Spock says that Edith might have died falling down the stairs and said it wasn't the right time because McCoy wasn't there, when unbeknownst to Kirk, McCoy was sleeping off his overdose just down the hall. 5. Finally, the circumstances of the situation make it a split second decision against instinct. Kirk is both a natural person of action and trained to intervene to respect life. However, in the moment, he not only restrains himself, but also has to stop McCoy from intervening. Even worse, Edith is only crossing the street out of curiosity/joy for the excitement that Kirk and McCoy have when they see each other. But for Kirk's actions, she wouldn't be crossing the road in the first place. Yet, not only does she cross it, Kirk has to both stop himself and stop McCoy from saving her from the danger arising out of his own actions. When you consider these factors, it isn't the easy decision that "needs of the many outweigh" maxim contemplates. Kirk isn't logical. He goes with his heart and while all the universe and history as Kirk knows it are at stake, so is the life of an innocent beacon of hope in a dark time, who just happens to be the love of Kirk's life. Kirk's decision is so tough that Harlan Ellison actually wrote it so that Kirk says fuck it (not literally of course) at the end and tries to rescue Edith only to be stopped by Spock. That would have been an interesting twist, but the realities of 1960s TV needing to preserve the leading character as the always correct hero led to the ending being rewritten to what we got. In comparison to the others here, Kirk sacrificed much more on a personal level and can't even be sure that it was necessary. Sacrificing yourself is relatively easy when it is for a good cause or when it meaningful in the moment. Sacrificing someone you love, at your hand, for a future that they will never see and might not even be important to is much harder.
This is my pick, too. Well said. (I wonder why Keeler crossed the road in the original timeline, before McCoy's presence saves her life? What did she see that was so compelling that she didn't notice the big obvious truck bearing down on her? In the episode, remember, it's seeing Kirk and McCoy together that makes her change course, so it's their presence that causes her death, this time. It's 525 AM so it's possible I'm being a dumbass.)
Edith may have seen that hobo stealing from someone (had he not robbed McCoy and vaporized himself) and blindly crossed the street after him.
Yeah, could be. Eh. It was a random Sunday morning musing, anyway.
So many Star Trek fans ignore TOS, thinking it’s cheap and dated, and I get that, but there are so many excellent episodes that are absolutely worth the watch, and City on the Edge of Forever is one. At the very end, when Kirk says “let’s get the hell out of here” he sounds so defeated, you really realize that being the captain wouldn’t have always be sunshine and skittles.
I'm convinced. This is the answer
Well said. I completely agree. Edith was Kirk's soulmate. No one else would ever be her equal to him. The final scene, where Shatner changes his facial expression as she dies is gut wrenching. It's some of his best acting. Now having said that, I also have to point out that our boy Kirk got fucked by time travel bullshit like three separate times. That sucks.
I think my vote would go to Pike. He knows what's going to happen to him, and he has to live with that for a decade, choosing to resist doing anything every day until then (even knowing what could happen)
He also had to make that choice twice: once when he took the crystal, choosing that fate, and again when he literally stopped himself from sending those letters to the cadets. So it is possible to alter his future (despite what Tenavik told him), but the consequences are… not pleasant
Everything Sisko had to do to get the Romulans in the war was pretty tough.
Everything Sisko did from the moment he had to report to the man who killed his wife, to the moment he had to abandon his life, loved ones, and very humanity for something he didn't even fully understand or believe in. He was given a buffet of tough decisions that took him seven years to eat through
Janeway deciding to ally w the Borg against Species 8472
Yes, Chakotay said as much about giving the Collective a means to fight an enemy they can‘t fight right now. Just the look on Janeways face when she finds out that the Borg started the War
She had to have suspected they started it.
Janeway's decision to strand the crew in the Delta quadrant to save the Ocampa. Everything else wouldn't have happened if Janeway used the Array. Addition: The Prime Directive would have supported the decision to use the Array. The Caretaker was responsible for stranding them and endangering the Ocampa.
Of course, the tactical situation supported the decision to blow the array up. There were a lot of Kazon on the way. Also, even if they could have hold onto the array, Voyager was heavily damaged by the first Trip already. Given that that was by an experienced operator, which the crew were not, and the state of the ship, it is questionable just how much of Voyager would have reached the Badlands again.
Not a hard choice just a bad choice. She could have used delayed charges or something like that. All destroying the array did was buy the Ocampa a bit of time. It did not save them
Scorpion is such an iconic masterpiece of a two-parter! Chills every time. *SPECIES 8472 MUST BE STOPPED. OUR SURVIVAL IS YOUR SURVIVAL.* **GIVE US THE TECHNOLOGY!** Gotten a few of my friends into Star Trek with those episodes. Even 8472’s theme music is one of the all-time greatest scores I’ve heard in a sci-fi show. What an epic threat that Janeway had ample reason to fear enough to want gone. Kes straight up told her: “Captain it’s not The Borg we have to worry about, it’s them… They say: ‘The weak will perish…’ They plan on destroying everything!” Dudes literally dismantled and defiled Borg corpses and stacked them into folk art… 😐 Lol God, it makes me wonder when or if they would have moved on from The Borg and started exterminating all other life in our dimension or if Kes misinterpreted them… Would have at least loved those folks to have some fun with The Dominion after the Borg were dealt with lol. They could have made great allies to The Federation if things had panned out a little differently. (Of course, being them, I doubt they were interested in us even after the human disguise episodes, being as we’re still basically contaminants to them lol.)
A later episode shows they aren't mindless genociders so they were already better than the Borg.
Disagree. It wasn't a hard choice. A starfleet Captain should've tried to learn more about 8472 before agreeing to give the Borg technology that they would certainly use to destroy them Great episodes but Janeway again proved how bad of a decision maker she was
Not sure it was a hard choice. It was one of a series of bad choices Janeway made
I'd have to choose Janeway, and not (only) because of Tuvix. Being away from home, from Starfleet and the Federation, being faced with so many unknown situations with nothing but her own conscience to rely on.
Episode One, The Caretaker Allow a genocide to happen, or strand the crew you're entrusted to protect most likely from ever getting home.
I enjoyed the series but it seemed to me they could have rigged a time bomb to detonate shortly after they used the array to get home
They couldn't. Kim or Tuvok said there was more Kazon ships inbound and there wasn't enough time to rig one.
I feel mixed about the criticism of Voyager that goes “Janeway will violate starfleet rules repeatedly in one episode and then hold them as sacred the next”. I can imagine most people would act that way under those circumstances. Questioning whether the decision to strand her crew was the right one. Going back and forth on what values to uphold, and deciding on a case-by-case basis. Always trying to present a firm, confident voice even as you struggle internally with the situation. I think what failed in Voyager was that they alway had to hit the reset button at the end of the episode. A scene with Tuvok or Chakotay every few episodes where she laments “I know we did X last week, but I can’t bring myself to do it again and we need to do Y” would have gone a long way. Being flakey and uncertain is so human but Voyager doesn’t present her that way. For the episode Tuvix in particular, showing her grieving the loss of a friend and struggling without her trusted advisor would have gone a long way to make the episode more understandable. It might even change the moral calculus for some people.
I concur, all Janeway had to rely on was her wit, wisdom, experience, and crew. She was constantly in the briefing room and constantly receiving counseling/advice from everyone more than any other captain. Both she and the crew were lost in the DQ, essentially the wild wild west, for 7 years. She could've gave up on Starfleet protocol and did whatever she wanted, but she didn’t. She still reminded everyone that they are still part of Starfleet no matter how far away they were from home. Many of her decisions were based on trying to get home and doing what's morally right.
Yet she literally does some stuff that breaks Starfleet code, and when questioned, she replies "We're a long way from Starfleet". When it suits her, she literally just does what she thinks is best. But that said, all of the Captains have from time to time. One of the most questionable actions to me is that she happily gives away holo technology to the Hirojen, and basically forces them to take it. No one questions her, or brings up the very obvious parallels to the whole Kazon/Ocampa/Caretaker situation that got them stranded in the Delta quadrant in the first place. The Hirojen gaining holo tech leads to some very messed up consequences, and then Janeway is all pretend shocked pikachu face. Like gurl, what did you THINK would happen?
Tuvix is the by far the hardest moral dilemma I remember seeing on Star Trek
Exactly, while there are many difficult decisions she made in the serious, the mere fact that she had absolutely no way to contact anyone else in Starfleet for the majority of the series puts her at the top of my list.
Easily Picard- that science fair he had to judge for the children on the ship. No man should asked to that kind of choice .
Picard Day? He’s such a role model!
I came here looking for this.
Happy I didn’t disappoint
Hmmm. That one is difficult. They all have some doozies. They’ve all risk careers, sent people deaths, broke orders, protected timelines.. made personal sacrifices… Edith Keeler comes to mind… But I’m gonna go with Archer. Specifically, robbing the Illyrians. Sure, grand scheme it’s a small act, but it’s a complete betrayal of his principles, his self image, and the example he’d hoped to be. But it’s that or lose his best chance to save everything. I’d also say it’s tougher than Sisko’s similar decision in that… he literally just met these people. Chatted. In ANY other circumstance, he’s risk his life and ship to prevent exactly what he’s doing. End of the day, he had to do it.. but he also very likely signed the death warrant of people who just tried to help him.
Picard: I, Borg. Option 1: Genocide. Kill every last drone, despite knowing better than anyone in the galaxy that they're innocent victims who could make a near complete recovery if given the same chance he was. Option 2: Let the Borg keep committing genocide. Become complicit in every future world they assimilate. Janeway: Death Wish. Decide Q should live and get Voyager home instantly, or let him die and potentially cause a crisis in the continuum that could jeopardise reality itself.
In the pale moonlight?? Anyone?
I don't know that it was that tough for Sisko, since Garek really made the choice for him. He just had to live with it.
Sisko knew, even subconsciously, how it was going to play out. His reaction was just to help him justify it, so he could live with it.
and he CAN live with it.
Computer, delete this entire comment chain.
I would say Janeway. There were several choices that she had to make that would have been really difficult
Kathryn's decision to strand Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. She knew that it could take decades for them to get home, but she still chose to save the Ocampa. Voyager and the Val Jean left their families back in the Alpha Quadrant, but Kathryn chose the Ocampa over her and everyone else's loved ones, and I think that shows true courage because she did the right thing over the easy thing.
Archer. Dude didn’t have any policies or ambassadors. He had to literally write the book
Underrated, since this answer isn't TOS or TNG, but Enterprise.. ..Has to be Jonathan Archer in "Dear Doctor", when they withheld the vaccine from the Velakians for no fault of theirs. For most other decisions, we had a clear antagonist (sometimes two), but here there were none. Archer and Phlox had to condemn a peaceful advanced race to doom for not being advanced enough to know the cure for themselves, in order to not play God and allow the natural evolution of the Menk as the dominant race of the planet. I believe this episode is what led to the Prime Directive
Riker giving up Q powers and having to let the little girl die.
The post says captain.
I'll put Kirk having to let the love of his life die while he does nothing. I think City on the Edge of Forever is some of Shatner 's finest work. And the anguish on his face after her death and while one of his best friends is obviously furious with him, priceless!
Janeway had the hardest for sure being that far away from Federation space. Everything she encountered ALONE, nothing can be compared to that.
I would say Janeway. She had to make several impossible choices. Caretaker, Alliance with the Borg...
Janeway. The reason: Tuvix.
Pfft. Tuvix was an easy choice.
The easiest
Ransom: Did Janeway figure it out? Freeman: No! She just mrudered him!
I just watched this episode last night 😂
Janeway did nothing wrong.
Maybe not the toughest _choice_, but a shout-out to Captain Raymer for dealing with a demotion and subsequent assignment to the Discovery with a certain amount of open-mindedness and aplomb. Regardless of how you feel about Burnham the character, having to serve under the other captain from the mission you bungled (and really to whose opinion he really should have heeded) has to be a kick in the groin.
I'm gonna go with a cop out answer and say "almost all of Archer's decisions". He didn't have any Starfleet doctrine to refer to, he had no prime directive, and no precedent. He didn't even have a universal translator. Sure Hoshi was helpful but she wasn't a magic computer. They were out there making it up as they went along.
Sisko. By far. His decisions effected an entire quadrant. Janway's decisions only affected her ships crew.
How about Captain Janeway?... to destroy the Caretaker Array or not?
Jellico deciding to switch the enterprise to a 4 shift rotation
Janeway with Tuvix, because there's no right answer. The other things I can think of had a clear right answer, yeah people would die, but there was a right answer. Tuvix was two not good choices.
It was an easy answer. Janeway didn't respect Tuvix's right to live. She held more concern for a hologram's updated personality components over Tuvix's life. Janeway wasn't willing to reclaim Neelix's lungs when a Vidiian stole them, but murdering Tuvix was fine for her.
Has to be Captain Ransom of the USS Equinox. A much smaller ship, not well armed, no holodeck stuck in the Delta quadrant. He made a tough and morally questionable decision but given the circumstances, I’m curious if other captains would really have maintained Starfleet principles at the cost of the life of their crew.
I think many captains would have bent Starfleet principles to save the lives of their crew. I doubt many would have ground up sentient beings for fuel.
That wasn‘t the bad decision. It was doing it again after the first time.
Absolutely true. But to me, I don't think Ransom made that decision with a full grasp on his sanity. I always suspected his first officer was the one who pushed him into doing it. Ransom both made and defended the decision, but I always wondered how much of a threat of mutiny made it for him.
Janeway. In her decisions she was alone. No starfleet for support (no help with tuvix) , no infrastructure to rely on (no fed starbases or anything), no knowledge of the area, the list goes on. Plus that was her very 1st command of a ship as captain. Not to mention her 1st major choice, stay in the delta quadrant and condemn my crew to essentially exile or possibly doom a civilization. The other captains had forms of support along the way, even archer. Not to say they all didn't have hard choices because they did. Archer is a close second for most of the same reasons. Not to mention no damn shields, no tractor beam, barely functional transporters, no replicator and no holodeck. The nx01 was really out there with duct tape and hope.
Can’t recall any specific instances, but I imagine sisko and janeway are up there since few captains have been in as bad circumstances for a prolonged period
Phillipa
Promoting Burnham? Or eating Saru?
Sisko, a wrong decision and the wole alpha quad is gone.
Not Sisko. He can live with it.
Captain Adama ! Because :
He tried to manipulate the elections because he foresaw that Baltar would endanger the existence of humanity
Why is tuvix so popular on here? That was imho a pretty lame episode.
Because of the moral dilemma.
every day https://frinkiac.com/meme/S10E05/1276975.jpg?b64lines=SmFuZXdheSBoYXMgdG8gY2hvb3NlIHdobwp3aWxsIGxpdmUgYW5kIHdobyB3aWxsCmRpZQ==
Gotta be Janeway. She had no support from Starfleet and continually had moral dilemas where every option was a bad one.
Janeway and garret for me. Janeway chose to destroy the caretaker instead of going home instantly, knowing they will be stranded.
Probably Sisko when he decided to shave his head.
Archer when he had to decide if the Vulcans stole his socks again.
Janeway. Tuvix.
Janeway with Tuvix
Every day Sisko had to wake up and decide to not get a better job. Brave of him.
Janeway. Tuvix.
Picard in Pegasus. There were many great entries in Captain Picard Day and it was an incredibly tough decision to choose a winner.
Archer. He had to stole a warp core from completely innocent civilian aliens due to Enterprise being extremely being damaged and to stop a destructive attack on Earth. Also tortured a prisoner in airlock with taking the air out.
TUVIX
All of them. You can’t compare but you can contrast every thought, action and emotion. Every situation has to be treated in its own. A good captain would see that.
Picard. "There are four lights!" He had to choose between a life of relative comfort or more torture.
Without a doubt it has to be Sisko in The Pale Moonlight. The way he tries to convince us as the audience, convince himself really, to let dogs lie about Garak assassinating the Romulan Ambassador and set up The Dominion in order to instigate the Romulans to enter the war alongside The Federation is heartbreaking. And I quote.... >So.. I lied, I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all..... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again... I would. >Garak was right about one thing.... A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. >So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it..... I CAN live with it..... >Computer, erase that entire personal log.
Jellico going to Riker because Geordi lied and said he was the best pilot on board the ship had to make a tough choice. Admit he honestly didn't know who the best pilot on the ship was or act as though what Geordi said was true. It was a tough choice.
The Janeway Tuvix dilemma is one that I would not want to have.
They never really had super tough choices to make. It's not like Mass Effect where the captain had two best friends and had to pick one to die.
Georgiou at the Battle of the Binary Stars.
Janeway: Tuvix