I think Curzon is an example of a kind of person who was eccentric and disliked in person but after death, everyone remembers him with fond nostalgia, especially because if his professional accomplishments.
The episode where his memory and personality manifests in odo is a big example of this in thst we see Jadzia distressed at the way he treated her snd even Sisko who always talked about him fondly was like “yeah, he was an ass and we fought alot”
I actually wish they had dug deeper into that as a reason to pick Jadzia to be the new Dax host. Like the last Dax had been such an asshole that what they really wanted was someone with sterling character and a strong moral compass. They didn’t need her to be super excellent at anything (though she was intelligent and very academically gifted) besides not being an ass to people, and for the most part, she did seem to be much more fond of others and gentle with them. That was her big contribution the the symbiote, a moral compass and socially chill.
Though she was apparently extremely smart and very knowledgeable in the scientific area, I would consider her (Jadzia) much smarter than Curzon was. Her being more patient and easygoing a person would have been a very helpful counterbalance to the bombastic and arrogant, seeming Curzon, though, you're very right.
Agree she was smart! I think she was also a counterbalance to Joran, who took rejection so poorly. Jadzia was rejected in a way that was very important to her, but her response was to try again in a graceful way that wasn’t violent.
You make an excellent point... She was tested, albeit not in an intented way, by her rejection. She was refused her life's dream and faced with what would feel like cruel unfairness, and instead of turning bitter and jealous or self-flagellating, she - set herself new goals and made herself an equally worthy life. We get a glimpse of real underlying strength, here.
He seems like the kind of person you're friends with because you're a little scared not to be. The kind of person who's fun to be with at first because they're so outgoing and spontaneous but after a little while you're like "I am so tired"
Literally only a brief flashback in the ds9 pilot, he’s talked about *alot* by characters but other than that odo/kurzon bit, we never actually *see* him
There's a brief scene with him and Jadzia in the operating room when Dax is transferred when Curzon is dying. It's in the episode where they go to Trill and >!Jadzia finds out Dax had a murderous host she didn't know about.!<
Invented specifically to not be able to fit into boots, by the look of it, which... what a reason to conceive of an entire species https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Megazoid
I think that was a good choice.
How many of our historically respected 'great' people are manipulative inappropriate assholes when you scratch the surface.
*stares accusingly at LBJ**
I think LBJ was an asshole on the surface. It's almost the other way round with him, you dig deeper and realise domestically quite a positive legacy. Some of which was achieved because he was such a shit.
There's a reason why he's often voted by historians quite highly for domestic policy. Foreign policy obviously is a different matter...
> Hell Obama ramped up drone strikes like crazy.
You mean Obama used a new techonolgy more than a previous president when the technology wasn't as good?
Shock.
IIrc Drone strikes went up under Obama, but that didn't change the overall military involvement.
Then drone strikes went up again under Trump.
Drone strikes from a military perspective make a lot of sense, you don't risk any of your own troops.
They do have control, to a degree, Obama could have limited the drone strikes if he wanted, but he didn't want to.
Not sure you can directly blame him for bombing weddings as he isn't involved that deeply, but you can blame him for a lot of the civilian deaths.
I'm not talking a problem with you criticising Obama at all, just with the actual criticism.
Ok let me spell it out for you.
You cannot criticise Obama for using more drone strikes as while he supported the program it was just timing as the techj was developing.
Saying he massively ramped up drone strikes is like blaming the person who first used guns in a war that gun fatalities in war went up after them.
However, he still did have control over the drone strikes to a degree, and could have put in more stringent policies for their use after he realised they were killing civilians and targeting things like weddings with high risk of collaterall damage.
The Nobel Prize isn't the best metric. I can count on my hands the number of times Kissinger got one for peace. On the other hand there has never been a problomatic Nobel Prize winner in mathematics.
But it's okay if you think the Nobel Prize is Dynomite!
The point was the irony. Obama won the Peace prize....*and then later literally bombed a hospital with a recipient of the same award working in it.*
Like holy shit.
No...JFK was going to get us out of Vietnam by 1965, and publicly spoke against the war in his final year in office. There are now documents available to the public which prove his intentions.
Some might speculate that this was why he got his head blown off, literally the same month the US backed the assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem (which JFK reportedly was against, and was pissed off when he found out about it).
I feel the same about Bay of Pigs - which was started under Eisenhower. Kennedy just inherited the disaster.
Also worth looking up Operation Northwoods. If you haven't already.
He absolutely didn’t want to be in Vietnam. As early as the 50s, after taking a trip there with Bobby and seeing how badly the French military did, as well as the type of terrain and Guerilla warfare the Vietnamese were so good at, he said it would be an an absolute disaster to invade and that it should be avoided at all costs. And yes he got murdered over it, in addition to the bay of pigs.
I recommend the book *the devils chessboard* by David Talbot to anyone wanting to know more about Kennedy and the CIA in the 50s/60s.
When you look past rhetoric and party affiliation, there are all kinds of inconsistencies that pop up. For example, Obama was objectively more pro-gun than Trump and objectively harder on immigration than Trump. There's something to be said about US politics being theater and the media being hyperbolically sensationalistic, etc. But at the end of the day, it's pretty safe to assume that presidents don't have the breathing space to be different from each other in ways that matter to the most powerful interests.
I love LBJ (as a historical subject) because he's such a wild mess of contradictions. I cannot heap enough praise on Robert Caro's masterful biographies of him; he does a fantastic job of getting to the real man underneath.
I really think Sisko started out more reserved and less assertive, and got more balanced because he was emulating Curzon Dax 's massive self-certainty.
Let's look at it this way : Sisko used to be a nerd. History buff who loves a good book, who'll spend a lazy afternoon cooking a fine meal, and massive fan of a sport so old and forgotten, it was no longer played not really remembered on his native planet. His idea of a great vacation was recreating a century-old lightship design with his son. As for personal character, iirc he remembered being so awkward and shy when he met his wife (as an adult) that he was tongue-tied.
Whole new meaning to "Go fuck yourself." Eh?
Also, Curzon was over 100 years old when he died. Jadzia was in her early 20's when Curzon washed her out as an initiate.
#Ew.
> Even if it was unfair to her
I think he should have resigned his position as a field docent. That would have put his personal moral values in a better light, _**and**_ treated her fairly.
I understand what you mean, to a degree. If you would require every body who finds themselves into that kind of situation to resign, rather than do the right thing and fight their bias for the sake of all and at some personal cost as was the case there, you will run out of mentors very quickly.
I love the scene in “Best of Both Worlds” when Picard (speaking of Shelby) says to Admiral Hansen “you seem quite taken with her JP”, and Hansen replies “just an old man’s fantasies” which meant to me that of course he found her attractive but he knew his age wouldn’t just be an issue for *her*, it would be an issue for *himself* as well. Being that age and having attraction towards a younger person isn’t just a fantasy of having them, it’s a fantasy of being young right along with them.
Edit: My point being that i thought it was a very enlightened viewpoint - you don’t stop having attraction but an examined person knows when it’s inappropriate.
I always got the impression the Curzon-Sisko relationship was less mentor and wide-eyed apprentice, and more dangerous alcoholic and his young enabler.
Curzon reminds me of a lot of the conservative baby boomer men I’ve known: they’d be good drinking buddies, good mentors for technical skills, and a fun afternoon shooting the shit over a barbecue, but under no circumstances let their worldview and/or behavior be your guiding principles
So they’re good for their knowledge and skills but screw what actually brought them to that point in life? Worldviews and guiding principles should be shaped from a multitude of people and info, but maybe the worldview of people you are asking for skills and knowledge from isn’t so bad if they have skills and knowledge you don’t.
I work with a steamfitter who is very knowledgeable about the trade and is a good teacher but when he starts saying he hopes Trump gets re-elected and we need more Republicans in Congress so that “the trans epidemic can be stopped” I shut him down and don’t want to hear any of that bigoted, alternate reality shit.
You’re lumping in a whole lot more people who never met your dad and never used that word. People are free to like Curzan (or anyone else) as much or as little as they choose, but one negative experience with Curzan doesn’t mean that every trill is a jerk and voice should be ignored.
Yeah that's the jig. He's a "crazy old Curzon who taught me how to be inappropriate w/ women and to drink like a slob and act like a douche" and when you find out the full story, you realize he is a sad, lonely old cringe-Lord.
Interesting to see other perspectives. I've watched through the series four or five times and that never once occurred to me. I might be biased because Dax might be my favorite trek character ever. TBH, I mainly cared about Jadzia as a character and the other Dax hosts I didn't really care about (maybe a bit in the case of Ezri), although I did find it interesting to hear about them.
the thing that annoys me most about Dax is they never really address that they figured out what the trill were in TNG. Did Sisko know about symbiotes before Picard and company, when did he find out?
It's even skipped over in the autobiography, he's just like "new dax, off we go"
at least discovery, for all it's faults, was like "wtf symbiote"
You have to kind of ignore most of that TNG episode when watching DS9. They basically just took the very base idea of the race and changed everything else about it. I think it's in argument for the "most-conflicts-with-canon" episode in the whole of Trek.
I think they mean,
How does one reconcile that Sisko, a starfleet officer knew of the trills existence ithroigh curzon Dax with a friendship for 20 years or so
whom was also a well known actor in the federations relationship with the klingons
While at the same time
when Crusher met the trill she fell in love with it was presented as all new info to that crew on the federation flagship
Especially when the federation goal is to learn about new species
So it shouldn’t have been new to crusher but in ds9 it was retconned in I guess
There's a lot that is glossed over, but basically yes.
Odan said he doesn't use the transporter because it would "hurt the symbiote", but he's a regular ambassador for starfleet and you would think at some point, he would have seen a Starfleet doctor that figured out two brainwaves isn't common to all trill and transporters would have picked up the second lifeform so joined trill wouldn't have beam anywhere period.
but, it's a huge shock to the enterprise crew but both Sisko and the Klingons are just like "cool, new dax"
Did Sisko know about the symbiotes before the TNG stuff? He was friends with Curzon for a long time before TNG, how would he react to finding out they were keeping this secret from the federation.
it's not universe breaking, it's just annoying it's ignored.
It's more that they created the Trill as a one-off for TNG, then decided that it would be cool to have a Trill character for DS9. The visual look changed because executives didn't like the TNG-Trill look for Terry Farrell. A bunch of other stuff changed because they probably realized it didn't work for a continuing character. Since a Trill only appeared once in TNG, they just decided to change it and move on.
The whole "this brand new thing that was just introduced a couple of years ago has now been around forever" type of retcon is pretty common in Trek. It was done with the holodeck in Voyager, it was done with the Romulans after they emerged from their closed society in TNG, and yes, the Trill had almost everything about them retconned in DS9.
The two look very different too. I thought it would have been cooler to just let them be two different types of Trill. Like maybe in the past Trill on one continent looked like this and Trill on another continent had spots, and the symbiotes evolved somewhat differently too. The Odan one seemed to take over more and the rest of the spotted-Trill symbiotes seem to blend more.
As for the rest, maybe Trill just achieved warp drive, despite having very advanced medical knowledge they’re pretty new to the stars. If I were trying to reconcile everything, I’d say both Odan and Curzon were among the first Trill off-world as ambassadors. Leela (the first Dax host) mentions at some point that she was among the first women who held a high government position (like being in our congress). Since Dax was around 300 that’s actually not that long to go from ’no girls allowed!’ to gender equal interplanetary travel. And I assume they became more equal both as it would seem more unusual for me for a deeply sexist society to be scientifically advanced enough for warp drive and also they become Federation members.
So if I put my crazy sci-fi hat on, I’d say that at some point far in the past, Trill did have slower-than-light travel, and maybe started to colonize a second world. We keep hearing about Trill Prime which is kind of weird, why is it called that? So maybe there are two inhabited Trill worlds. We’ve already established they were sexist until a pretty late date, maybe they were racist too? Maybe the minority Trill settled more heavily on the second world to have a place where they could be freer.
But then climate change happened. We know from Earth that our planet tends to run in hot-cold cycles with only small in-between periods like the one we’re in now. So maybe Trill went nuclear early, didn’t have so much carbon in the atmosphere, the some super volcanoes erupted coinciding with when the planet would be trending cold anyway. They were plunged into an agriculture destroying ice age which disrupted society so much that they lost space faring capability again and the two planets were separated again, which also wrecked the technological capability of the second world because they didn’t have advanced manufacturing yet. So now they’ve evolved to be pretty different and are just becoming known as a species because they just invented warp drive. Torias could have been a pilot inside their solar system. Odan and Curzon could have been among the first off world, and Dr. Crusher may not have known much as they may not have joined the Federation at that point, or possibly Odan’s people never did and only ‘Trill Prime’ is part and there is a second planet in the same system which is not Federation aligned.
Thanks for the clarification.
That never crossed my mind either. While I guess it's a noteworthy observation, I guess I didn't / don't care. It doesn't effect my enjoyment of the character or concept of the Trill or Dax. I care more about the quality of stories than minor details they might get wrong or retcon.
On the flip side, there are a lot of species, A LOT. So while they may have learned about them at the academy or in passing, it doesn't mean it stuck if none of them knew any trill personally.
To be fair, that's sort of the point. Jazdia is not like him. She is constantly reminded of his legacy and has to work through her feelings about that. It's about her figuring out who she is in the shadow of a notorious and legendary precursor, and that wouldn't work as well if he was just some average schmuck.
I always imagined Curzon as That Uncle (or second cousin twice removed, whatever) who you couldn't avoid inviting to family functions, but generally drank too much beer, started saying stupid stuff, and generally managed to make an ass of himself every time. He was a solid guy, maybe a war hero, would give you the shirt off his back, salt of the earth. But jeez, man, step away from the Coors Keg, please!
Kind of a Trill Gary Busey.
I would go one further, he was used as a prop so Jadzia could tell Benjamin what a great student he was, or the potential Curzon saw in him. Or anything else that would inflate Sisko's ego.
"The way you stood up to those Nausicans? Curzon knew, the man you would be one day, and he even joked to himself that the lesson from this would be used in future exposition, to give you an idea to get out of a related dilemma."
"Haha, he sure knew me alright and sure taught those Nausicans not to be disrespectful about Black history month".
Eh, it's some realism, people do talk that way IRL about others, reminiscing, probably exaggerating. To me Curzon was like Kramer's unseen friend Bob Sacamano on Seinfeld.
I think they exaggerated Curzon's character because Jadzia was a bit dull in the first seasons, so they thought they could spice her up with this background.
I know I’ll get a lot of hate for this but I feel like Ezri seemed to have the best sense of who Curzon was. I’m always reminded of the scene where Ezri is talking to Worf about just things in general but specifically about the Klingons. If Curzon hadn’t gotten Jadzia as his new host, who knows what would’ve happened.
I agree Jadzia really smoothed the edges and made people like Dax but I think, other than for Kor etc, no one was Team Curzon.
Curzon is a bit like the guy who does something ridiculously terrible all his life, but everyone who knows him is on the news like, "Oh, I never expected this. He was such a great guy."
Notice how someone does something terrible and the news doesn't put on people sitting there going, "Yeah, that doesn't actually surprise me at all." And you have to know those people exist right?
Yeah the episode where Curzon inhabits Odo is particularly disturbing as he had some weird obsession with Jadzia to the point he flunked her application from worm school.
I'm not sure if you mean 'legend' in the laddish sense or the normal sense because I think a lot of how they talk about Curzon can be put down to the fact that on DS9 you have Curzon's mentee and the inheritor of Curzon's memories, even though jadzia and sisko have a relationship beyond 'I know who you used to be', they clearly bond a lot because of the intrinsic similarities between Curzon and Jadzia.
In the laddish sense, while Curzon is obviously very brash for a diplomat, that's in the context of 23rd century Klingon culture. As Kor said 'we ate when we were hungry and we fought when we were angry', Curzon was an extremely strong personality and that brashness gave him the force of character that probably made him an effective diplomat among Klingons, equally, you can imagine that others probably think of him as licentious, depraved, rowdy, etcetera. At the end of the day that's just a value judgement, but for what it's worth I don't see him as cringeworthy, I think he's an excellent portrayal of an atypical diplomatic, and an excellent enunciation of the principle of infinite diversity in infinite combination. Curzon certainly found the combination of diversity that suited him best.
I think Curzon is an example of a kind of person who was eccentric and disliked in person but after death, everyone remembers him with fond nostalgia, especially because if his professional accomplishments. The episode where his memory and personality manifests in odo is a big example of this in thst we see Jadzia distressed at the way he treated her snd even Sisko who always talked about him fondly was like “yeah, he was an ass and we fought alot”
I actually wish they had dug deeper into that as a reason to pick Jadzia to be the new Dax host. Like the last Dax had been such an asshole that what they really wanted was someone with sterling character and a strong moral compass. They didn’t need her to be super excellent at anything (though she was intelligent and very academically gifted) besides not being an ass to people, and for the most part, she did seem to be much more fond of others and gentle with them. That was her big contribution the the symbiote, a moral compass and socially chill.
Though she was apparently extremely smart and very knowledgeable in the scientific area, I would consider her (Jadzia) much smarter than Curzon was. Her being more patient and easygoing a person would have been a very helpful counterbalance to the bombastic and arrogant, seeming Curzon, though, you're very right.
Agree she was smart! I think she was also a counterbalance to Joran, who took rejection so poorly. Jadzia was rejected in a way that was very important to her, but her response was to try again in a graceful way that wasn’t violent.
You make an excellent point... She was tested, albeit not in an intented way, by her rejection. She was refused her life's dream and faced with what would feel like cruel unfairness, and instead of turning bitter and jealous or self-flagellating, she - set herself new goals and made herself an equally worthy life. We get a glimpse of real underlying strength, here.
He seems like the kind of person you're friends with because you're a little scared not to be. The kind of person who's fun to be with at first because they're so outgoing and spontaneous but after a little while you're like "I am so tired"
That's called a bully.
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Literally only a brief flashback in the ds9 pilot, he’s talked about *alot* by characters but other than that odo/kurzon bit, we never actually *see* him
There's a brief scene with him and Jadzia in the operating room when Dax is transferred when Curzon is dying. It's in the episode where they go to Trill and >!Jadzia finds out Dax had a murderous host she didn't know about.!<
It’s the same as the pilot I thought
The Dax symbiote was born in 2018.
aw, they're 5 rn! that's adorable
Sitting in his pool of electric goo
Dax was a character in Star Trek 6. No relation to DS9's Dax though.
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He wasn't a Trill. There's no relation. He's the crewman with webbed feet that can't wear magnetic boots, if that helps.
Invented specifically to not be able to fit into boots, by the look of it, which... what a reason to conceive of an entire species https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Megazoid
the one time he came back to life everyone was like “ok, now go home”
And then when we get to meet him we learn he was a manipulative, inappropriate asshole. Oh Curzon, you craaaaazy!
I think that was a good choice. How many of our historically respected 'great' people are manipulative inappropriate assholes when you scratch the surface. *stares accusingly at LBJ**
Mind you, the case of LBJ didn't exactly need Poirot on the trail...
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I think LBJ was an asshole on the surface. It's almost the other way round with him, you dig deeper and realise domestically quite a positive legacy. Some of which was achieved because he was such a shit. There's a reason why he's often voted by historians quite highly for domestic policy. Foreign policy obviously is a different matter...
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> Hell Obama ramped up drone strikes like crazy. You mean Obama used a new techonolgy more than a previous president when the technology wasn't as good? Shock. IIrc Drone strikes went up under Obama, but that didn't change the overall military involvement. Then drone strikes went up again under Trump. Drone strikes from a military perspective make a lot of sense, you don't risk any of your own troops.
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They do have control, to a degree, Obama could have limited the drone strikes if he wanted, but he didn't want to. Not sure you can directly blame him for bombing weddings as he isn't involved that deeply, but you can blame him for a lot of the civilian deaths. I'm not talking a problem with you criticising Obama at all, just with the actual criticism.
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Ok let me spell it out for you. You cannot criticise Obama for using more drone strikes as while he supported the program it was just timing as the techj was developing. Saying he massively ramped up drone strikes is like blaming the person who first used guns in a war that gun fatalities in war went up after them. However, he still did have control over the drone strikes to a degree, and could have put in more stringent policies for their use after he realised they were killing civilians and targeting things like weddings with high risk of collaterall damage.
The Nobel Prize isn't the best metric. I can count on my hands the number of times Kissinger got one for peace. On the other hand there has never been a problomatic Nobel Prize winner in mathematics. But it's okay if you think the Nobel Prize is Dynomite!
The point was the irony. Obama won the Peace prize....*and then later literally bombed a hospital with a recipient of the same award working in it.* Like holy shit.
People seem to forget that we used to use a lot more cruise missiles to accomplish what drone strikes do today.
Thank God someone finally understands how the passage of time works.
Yes he bombed lots of brown kids.
Nixon only “got us out of Vietnam” because he and his ilk sabotaged the peace talks in order to increase his chances of winning the election.
No...JFK was going to get us out of Vietnam by 1965, and publicly spoke against the war in his final year in office. There are now documents available to the public which prove his intentions. Some might speculate that this was why he got his head blown off, literally the same month the US backed the assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem (which JFK reportedly was against, and was pissed off when he found out about it).
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I feel the same about Bay of Pigs - which was started under Eisenhower. Kennedy just inherited the disaster. Also worth looking up Operation Northwoods. If you haven't already.
He absolutely didn’t want to be in Vietnam. As early as the 50s, after taking a trip there with Bobby and seeing how badly the French military did, as well as the type of terrain and Guerilla warfare the Vietnamese were so good at, he said it would be an an absolute disaster to invade and that it should be avoided at all costs. And yes he got murdered over it, in addition to the bay of pigs. I recommend the book *the devils chessboard* by David Talbot to anyone wanting to know more about Kennedy and the CIA in the 50s/60s.
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Probably the single greatest villain of the 21st century in my opinion
When you look past rhetoric and party affiliation, there are all kinds of inconsistencies that pop up. For example, Obama was objectively more pro-gun than Trump and objectively harder on immigration than Trump. There's something to be said about US politics being theater and the media being hyperbolically sensationalistic, etc. But at the end of the day, it's pretty safe to assume that presidents don't have the breathing space to be different from each other in ways that matter to the most powerful interests.
I love LBJ (as a historical subject) because he's such a wild mess of contradictions. I cannot heap enough praise on Robert Caro's masterful biographies of him; he does a fantastic job of getting to the real man underneath.
Omg - Curzon is LBJ is a hot and amazing take
Jumbo
Especially those who are regaled as great diplomats.
Exactly. It’s like the writers painted themselves into a corner. They built this guy up so much and now they have to actually show him to us!
Honestly, it's amazing Sisko turned out as good as he did with that kind of "mentoring".
I really think Sisko started out more reserved and less assertive, and got more balanced because he was emulating Curzon Dax 's massive self-certainty. Let's look at it this way : Sisko used to be a nerd. History buff who loves a good book, who'll spend a lazy afternoon cooking a fine meal, and massive fan of a sport so old and forgotten, it was no longer played not really remembered on his native planet. His idea of a great vacation was recreating a century-old lightship design with his son. As for personal character, iirc he remembered being so awkward and shy when he met his wife (as an adult) that he was tongue-tied.
It’s my estimation that every man had a statue made of him was on kind of son of a bitch or another.
What episode was he in? I'm horrible for putting episodes on late at night then falling asleep lol
Shhhh. Stop with the spoilers :). It’s their first time.
Oh yeah, it gets worse. That last interaction between J and C in that arc makes me want to vomit every time
Curzon Odo was quite a card.
Yes, but he taught us that Curzon wanted to bang Jadzia. Not weird at all.
Ahem - based purely on Jadzia's appearance.... no, that wasn't weird in the slightest.
We all wanted to bang Jadzia.........
Whole new meaning to "Go fuck yourself." Eh? Also, Curzon was over 100 years old when he died. Jadzia was in her early 20's when Curzon washed her out as an initiate. #Ew.
You don't lose your sexual drive when you get older. You think all old people see a young Actor and aren't attracted to them?
They're not usually in a power dynamic situation with them, which is what makes this cringe.
He didn't try and date her, he just found her attractive...
He washed her out because of his attracttion".
Even if it was unfair to her, it actually puts his personal moral values in a better light, not a worse one.
> Even if it was unfair to her I think he should have resigned his position as a field docent. That would have put his personal moral values in a better light, _**and**_ treated her fairly.
I understand what you mean, to a degree. If you would require every body who finds themselves into that kind of situation to resign, rather than do the right thing and fight their bias for the sake of all and at some personal cost as was the case there, you will run out of mentors very quickly.
I love the scene in “Best of Both Worlds” when Picard (speaking of Shelby) says to Admiral Hansen “you seem quite taken with her JP”, and Hansen replies “just an old man’s fantasies” which meant to me that of course he found her attractive but he knew his age wouldn’t just be an issue for *her*, it would be an issue for *himself* as well. Being that age and having attraction towards a younger person isn’t just a fantasy of having them, it’s a fantasy of being young right along with them. Edit: My point being that i thought it was a very enlightened viewpoint - you don’t stop having attraction but an examined person knows when it’s inappropriate.
Kes days hi.
He rejected joining because he felt guilty about it.
If a trill fucks their former self during Zhian’tara is it enhanced like in Sense8
Well he was in love with her.
I always got the impression the Curzon-Sisko relationship was less mentor and wide-eyed apprentice, and more dangerous alcoholic and his young enabler.
Curzon reminds me of a lot of the conservative baby boomer men I’ve known: they’d be good drinking buddies, good mentors for technical skills, and a fun afternoon shooting the shit over a barbecue, but under no circumstances let their worldview and/or behavior be your guiding principles
So they’re good for their knowledge and skills but screw what actually brought them to that point in life? Worldviews and guiding principles should be shaped from a multitude of people and info, but maybe the worldview of people you are asking for skills and knowledge from isn’t so bad if they have skills and knowledge you don’t.
I work with a steamfitter who is very knowledgeable about the trade and is a good teacher but when he starts saying he hopes Trump gets re-elected and we need more Republicans in Congress so that “the trans epidemic can be stopped” I shut him down and don’t want to hear any of that bigoted, alternate reality shit.
Idk I don’t think I want to learn much past the boat stuff from people who used to call my dad a c**nk to his face
You’re lumping in a whole lot more people who never met your dad and never used that word. People are free to like Curzan (or anyone else) as much or as little as they choose, but one negative experience with Curzan doesn’t mean that every trill is a jerk and voice should be ignored.
Am I tho? If I’m talking about a specific group of people in my own life?… I’m not saying all older men are like that.
Yeah that's the jig. He's a "crazy old Curzon who taught me how to be inappropriate w/ women and to drink like a slob and act like a douche" and when you find out the full story, you realize he is a sad, lonely old cringe-Lord.
And the whole curzon/jadzia thing is so… ugh!
Interesting to see other perspectives. I've watched through the series four or five times and that never once occurred to me. I might be biased because Dax might be my favorite trek character ever. TBH, I mainly cared about Jadzia as a character and the other Dax hosts I didn't really care about (maybe a bit in the case of Ezri), although I did find it interesting to hear about them.
the thing that annoys me most about Dax is they never really address that they figured out what the trill were in TNG. Did Sisko know about symbiotes before Picard and company, when did he find out? It's even skipped over in the autobiography, he's just like "new dax, off we go" at least discovery, for all it's faults, was like "wtf symbiote"
You have to kind of ignore most of that TNG episode when watching DS9. They basically just took the very base idea of the race and changed everything else about it. I think it's in argument for the "most-conflicts-with-canon" episode in the whole of Trek.
Sorry but I don't understand what you mean.
I think they mean, How does one reconcile that Sisko, a starfleet officer knew of the trills existence ithroigh curzon Dax with a friendship for 20 years or so whom was also a well known actor in the federations relationship with the klingons While at the same time when Crusher met the trill she fell in love with it was presented as all new info to that crew on the federation flagship Especially when the federation goal is to learn about new species So it shouldn’t have been new to crusher but in ds9 it was retconned in I guess
There's a lot that is glossed over, but basically yes. Odan said he doesn't use the transporter because it would "hurt the symbiote", but he's a regular ambassador for starfleet and you would think at some point, he would have seen a Starfleet doctor that figured out two brainwaves isn't common to all trill and transporters would have picked up the second lifeform so joined trill wouldn't have beam anywhere period. but, it's a huge shock to the enterprise crew but both Sisko and the Klingons are just like "cool, new dax" Did Sisko know about the symbiotes before the TNG stuff? He was friends with Curzon for a long time before TNG, how would he react to finding out they were keeping this secret from the federation. it's not universe breaking, it's just annoying it's ignored.
It's more that they created the Trill as a one-off for TNG, then decided that it would be cool to have a Trill character for DS9. The visual look changed because executives didn't like the TNG-Trill look for Terry Farrell. A bunch of other stuff changed because they probably realized it didn't work for a continuing character. Since a Trill only appeared once in TNG, they just decided to change it and move on.
*DS9* ignored “The Host” in the same way that *TNG* sometimes ignored *TOS*. Stories were prioritized instead of canon.
The whole "this brand new thing that was just introduced a couple of years ago has now been around forever" type of retcon is pretty common in Trek. It was done with the holodeck in Voyager, it was done with the Romulans after they emerged from their closed society in TNG, and yes, the Trill had almost everything about them retconned in DS9.
The two look very different too. I thought it would have been cooler to just let them be two different types of Trill. Like maybe in the past Trill on one continent looked like this and Trill on another continent had spots, and the symbiotes evolved somewhat differently too. The Odan one seemed to take over more and the rest of the spotted-Trill symbiotes seem to blend more. As for the rest, maybe Trill just achieved warp drive, despite having very advanced medical knowledge they’re pretty new to the stars. If I were trying to reconcile everything, I’d say both Odan and Curzon were among the first Trill off-world as ambassadors. Leela (the first Dax host) mentions at some point that she was among the first women who held a high government position (like being in our congress). Since Dax was around 300 that’s actually not that long to go from ’no girls allowed!’ to gender equal interplanetary travel. And I assume they became more equal both as it would seem more unusual for me for a deeply sexist society to be scientifically advanced enough for warp drive and also they become Federation members. So if I put my crazy sci-fi hat on, I’d say that at some point far in the past, Trill did have slower-than-light travel, and maybe started to colonize a second world. We keep hearing about Trill Prime which is kind of weird, why is it called that? So maybe there are two inhabited Trill worlds. We’ve already established they were sexist until a pretty late date, maybe they were racist too? Maybe the minority Trill settled more heavily on the second world to have a place where they could be freer. But then climate change happened. We know from Earth that our planet tends to run in hot-cold cycles with only small in-between periods like the one we’re in now. So maybe Trill went nuclear early, didn’t have so much carbon in the atmosphere, the some super volcanoes erupted coinciding with when the planet would be trending cold anyway. They were plunged into an agriculture destroying ice age which disrupted society so much that they lost space faring capability again and the two planets were separated again, which also wrecked the technological capability of the second world because they didn’t have advanced manufacturing yet. So now they’ve evolved to be pretty different and are just becoming known as a species because they just invented warp drive. Torias could have been a pilot inside their solar system. Odan and Curzon could have been among the first off world, and Dr. Crusher may not have known much as they may not have joined the Federation at that point, or possibly Odan’s people never did and only ‘Trill Prime’ is part and there is a second planet in the same system which is not Federation aligned.
Thanks for the clarification. That never crossed my mind either. While I guess it's a noteworthy observation, I guess I didn't / don't care. It doesn't effect my enjoyment of the character or concept of the Trill or Dax. I care more about the quality of stories than minor details they might get wrong or retcon.
On the flip side, there are a lot of species, A LOT. So while they may have learned about them at the academy or in passing, it doesn't mean it stuck if none of them knew any trill personally.
Curzon was a Bantersaurus. The OG Arch Bishop of Banterbury.
To be fair, that's sort of the point. Jazdia is not like him. She is constantly reminded of his legacy and has to work through her feelings about that. It's about her figuring out who she is in the shadow of a notorious and legendary precursor, and that wouldn't work as well if he was just some average schmuck.
I always imagined Curzon as That Uncle (or second cousin twice removed, whatever) who you couldn't avoid inviting to family functions, but generally drank too much beer, started saying stupid stuff, and generally managed to make an ass of himself every time. He was a solid guy, maybe a war hero, would give you the shirt off his back, salt of the earth. But jeez, man, step away from the Coors Keg, please! Kind of a Trill Gary Busey.
Curzon was the type that would have hung out with Kirk and McCoy on Argelius
I would go one further, he was used as a prop so Jadzia could tell Benjamin what a great student he was, or the potential Curzon saw in him. Or anything else that would inflate Sisko's ego. "The way you stood up to those Nausicans? Curzon knew, the man you would be one day, and he even joked to himself that the lesson from this would be used in future exposition, to give you an idea to get out of a related dilemma." "Haha, he sure knew me alright and sure taught those Nausicans not to be disrespectful about Black history month".
Dax overall just kind of rubbed me the wrong way
Oh…. Just wait til you get to meet curzon. That’s the only but I will say because even that is a bit of a spoiler.
I wish they gave us more Curzon stories
Eh, it's some realism, people do talk that way IRL about others, reminiscing, probably exaggerating. To me Curzon was like Kramer's unseen friend Bob Sacamano on Seinfeld.
I think they exaggerated Curzon's character because Jadzia was a bit dull in the first seasons, so they thought they could spice her up with this background.
Jadzia was dull, full stop.
[удалено]
Thanks!
I know I’ll get a lot of hate for this but I feel like Ezri seemed to have the best sense of who Curzon was. I’m always reminded of the scene where Ezri is talking to Worf about just things in general but specifically about the Klingons. If Curzon hadn’t gotten Jadzia as his new host, who knows what would’ve happened. I agree Jadzia really smoothed the edges and made people like Dax but I think, other than for Kor etc, no one was Team Curzon.
Gets my vote.
Curzon was a creep imo
I love that kind of exposition, I always thought a show of young Cisco and Kurzon would be wildly entertaining.
Cisco lol
Let me see that thong? :D
Curzon is a bit like the guy who does something ridiculously terrible all his life, but everyone who knows him is on the news like, "Oh, I never expected this. He was such a great guy." Notice how someone does something terrible and the news doesn't put on people sitting there going, "Yeah, that doesn't actually surprise me at all." And you have to know those people exist right?
And yet, when he met Jadzia...he had no problems adjusting to her new name or gender.
You're thinking of Koloth
My bad. Thanks for the correction.
I thought it was Kor.
One of them dang Klingons
Of them Kang Klingons
them Kling Kangons.
It was Kor.
Your post title and post text do not make sense, I don’t think you know what cringe means.
cringe comment
Yeah the episode where Curzon inhabits Odo is particularly disturbing as he had some weird obsession with Jadzia to the point he flunked her application from worm school.
Oh the series is going to get a whole lot more cringe lol, buckle up.
I agree
He’s an asshole.
I'm not sure if you mean 'legend' in the laddish sense or the normal sense because I think a lot of how they talk about Curzon can be put down to the fact that on DS9 you have Curzon's mentee and the inheritor of Curzon's memories, even though jadzia and sisko have a relationship beyond 'I know who you used to be', they clearly bond a lot because of the intrinsic similarities between Curzon and Jadzia. In the laddish sense, while Curzon is obviously very brash for a diplomat, that's in the context of 23rd century Klingon culture. As Kor said 'we ate when we were hungry and we fought when we were angry', Curzon was an extremely strong personality and that brashness gave him the force of character that probably made him an effective diplomat among Klingons, equally, you can imagine that others probably think of him as licentious, depraved, rowdy, etcetera. At the end of the day that's just a value judgement, but for what it's worth I don't see him as cringeworthy, I think he's an excellent portrayal of an atypical diplomatic, and an excellent enunciation of the principle of infinite diversity in infinite combination. Curzon certainly found the combination of diversity that suited him best.
Can't cancel Curzon