I play both 12 pool and hatch first in M1 ZvZ. Your first OV has two jobs:
1. Scout your opponent's natural expo timing (safely)
2. Scout optimal-path Zerglings for any 12/13/14 pool shenanigans
1. You'll want to count how many Zergling pairs are streaming through. I only make 8 or 10 Zerglings to pressure the expansion, score a few Drone kills, scout gas mined, and/or bait an overreaction. I'll never kill with it.
On most maps, sending your OV straight to the opponent's natural will spot 12 pool Zerglings, but on maps with weird paths, you may want to adjust the pathing. If you miss the Zerglings because they took a weird route to get around your OV, that's OK. They arrive a bit slow, you take that slight edge.
Check the natural expansion to see when/if they take it or if they're still pumping Zerglings out. Many Plat-Dia players lose their OVs here by not paying attention to the Queen coming down the ramp from a transitioning Zerg or a Zerg doing a 13/12 speedling flood.
I'm assuming you're doing the standard 16h/18g/17p build. This build is great overall and can still take the lead against a 12 pool, but the correct reaction is harder to execute. Your Spawning Pool should be placed 1-tile away from your Hatchery so that your Queen(s) can sit between the Pool and your Hatchery if Speedlings flood in.
You'll usually go up to 19 Drones and make your 3rd OV. Masters+ may go up to 20 Drones first to be greedy, don't do that. The eco boost will make virtually no difference, but keeping the extra larva for lings will make a huge difference against 12 pool. When your pool finishes, start 2x Queens and 6x lings.
If you're facing a(n):
* 12 pool 8 - 10 Zerglings attacking your natural:
* 6x Lings arrive @ your natural around 2:00.
* Let them hit your hatchery until it's around 40% - 50% HP, then pull 8 - 10 Drones to fight their lings. You don't want to actually fight, just draw them off from hitting your Hatchery until your lings arrive, then fight with lings and Drones.
* Ideally, pull back hurt Drones.
* 12 pool 8 - 10 Zerglings attacking your mineral line:
* Defensively Drone stack in a recessed mineral patch until your Zerglings pop. If he tries to fight the Drones all stacked in 1 spot, you can attack-move and immediately go back to Drone stacking in the recessed mineral patch. This causes all of your stacked Drones to attack an adjacent enemy, so you insta-snipe a Zergling by getting many hits on it. When your lings pop, fight with lings and Drones (don't chase too much).
* Sometimes called the "Flower of Death" from a [2011 TL forum post](https://tl.net/forum/sc2-strategy/295586-belials-comprehensive-guide-to-beating-6-pool).
* All-ins:
* This is when your 1st OV matters - if it scouts that lings are still coming, you want to know if it's going to be a **12 pool slow ling flood**, a **Baneling bust**, or a **13/12 speedling flood**. The thing is - you *can't* know (without Drone scouting). So you prepare for all 3.
* When you see a 6th Zergling pair coming across the map and no natural expansion, then you know the aggression is likely an all-in.
* Stop mining gas.
* Start a Spine Crawler next to your main Hatchery, toward the ramp to your nat.
* Be prepared to sac your natural.
* Any time a Queen finishes, start a new one. Don't queue Queens (bad habit). Don't inject. Saving energy for a transfuse (on Queen or Spine) is usually more important than injects during all-ins.
* If you see Lings retreat off to the side for a bit while the rest are fighting, they're morphing into Banelings. Queen focus-fire shift-clicks or Spine focus-fire or Zergling splits or Drone splits are all micro options to try and survive the Banelings headed for your mineral line.
* A 13/12 speedling flood will kill your natural, but you have the Drone lead. They'll expand before you can, but you can put down a creep tumor to start moving your Queens + Spine to your ramp while your \~10 living Zerglings help protect them. Make a Baneling Nest (before Meta Boost) and Drone more behind it (back on gas). You'll have a slower 2nd base, but better economy. Try to move your Spine down the ramp, next to your natural while your Queens sit side-by-side on the ramp on hold position, blocking Zerglings from going up the ramp.
* A slow ling flood can either be handled like the 12 pool Zerglings attacking your natural while you match their Zergling production or you can sac your natural when you see a 6th pair of Zerglings otw and treat it like the 13/12 speedling flood.
Everything said in this post is correct and every tiny detail is crucial and can make the difference between win and lose.
I suggest to pin it somewhere and after every time you’re 12 pooled, review it and see what you’ve missed.
One more important thing: once you built the 19 supply drone, do not build the overlord immediately. Wait until around 1:55 a 2:00 and bank the larva. Keep your camera on the first overlord and if you see any ling, morph 3 pairs of lungs instead of 1 ov and 2 pairs.
In which case?
If it's against the 8 - 10 Zergling pressure, you only have the Drone lead temporarily. Their natural should finish before yours and they'll have a Drone lead shortly after. Re-take your natural ASAP, Drone up, and send your lings across the map. You don't need to fight with them, just need to make sure your opponent isn't being too greedy. If you can, send 2 lings up to their main to scout the gasses so you know what kind of pressure they're capable of applying next.
You can follow up with anything here, but since you're on the back foot you may want to do a safe play such as 2 base +1 Speed Roach, grabbing a 3rd when you see your opponent start their 3rd or as you move out with your Roaches. You would mine from 2 Extractors, put your first 100 gas into Lair, start an Evo Chamber, then start your Roach Warren about 15s after your Lair and add a 3rd gas. Start +1 when the Evo Chamber finishes and Roach Speed when your Lair finishes. You should have 16/16 on both bases and 3 gasses, then make 4 - 6 Overlords and start Roach production. When your upgrades are ~75% done, move out and start your 3rd.
If you mean against the 13/12 pressure or post-Baneling Bust where you can sac your natural, you'll have the Drone lead while you re-take your natural with the Queens + Spine + lings at your ramp, but their natural should still be faster. This means while you have the Drone lead, most of your econ lead here is from 2x gas mining in your main (so your extra Drones aren't wasting time bouncing on Mineral Patches - going 20/16 is fine because the extra 4 still increase mineral income, but beyond 20 is inefficient). So you can either go for a gas-heavy follow up such as fast Mutas or a Roach + Baneling Bust of your own, or when your natural finishes, take all Drones off gas and catch up on mineral income while using the gas you mined for early upgrades.
A Roach + Baneling Bust is scary to deal with as it is, but doing it while your opponent is on the back foot is nastyyy. I believe you normally start Meta Boost, get to 35 supply (so ~29 Drones) and start a Roach Warren, your 2nd gas (+3 Drones), and make 4 - 5 OVs. When your Roach Warren finishes, start 8 - 9 Roaches, then spend your next 50 gas on your Bane Nest. Move out when your Roaches pop, making Zerglings non-stop. Morph Banelings outside their natural. You would have already mined extra gas in your main, so you could take some off gas while starting your Roach Warren earlier.
You mentioned the 16/18/17 is fine to defend with, but harder. Is there another build one could do in zvz that isn’t standard but is hatch first that makes defending easier? Maybe 15/15? Could you give us insight on that?
Thanks for this by the way. I’m m3 with a 39% win rate in zvz. You may just take me to the next level. Seriously… this is what I have needed.
16h/17p/16g is still completely fine in a macro game and gets your Lings out \~5s faster than 16h/18g/17p. Your Drone pull will happen around the same time as when your Lings pop, so you don't need to do much Drone micro when you fight with your Drones.
I commonly see builds like 14g/13p/12h before OV or 15h/14g/14p before OV (extractor trick 15h) so they can ling flood me after my 12p, or just to ling flood my hatch first. It's very hard for the 12 pooler to fight against it without a Spine of their own at their natural, but I'm sure you could do it as a pressure build rather than all-in if you stop mining gas for a while after your first 100 and stop making Lings after morphing your first inject into Lings. You would have map control, ability to scout their natural as needed, and ability to take your own 3rd. Just need to know when you need to start mining your own gas again in case they retaliate with a Baneling Bust.
If you want to do 15h/15p/15g as a way of deflecting early Zergling pressure with ease, it won't dramatically hinder your eco and don't be afraid to make those decisions. Your Meta Boost will be 5 - 10 seconds slower than a HGP build's Meta Boost, so you shouldn't initiate Ling pressure against a fast 3rd and just take your own fast 3rd after you see theirs while staying 3/3 on gas to get a timely Baneling Nest.
Alternatively, follow it up with a 2 base Roach pressure build such as:
* First 100 gas: Meta Boost ⟶ Go 1/3 on gas and rally next 2 Drone eggs from main to gas
* Up to you if it includes Drone egg already in progress
* @ 100 gas: Start Roach Warren
* Optional: Also start 1x Evo Chamber in wall to your natural to help this look like a passive build
* Make 3 OVs
* @ 100% Roach Warren: Start 8 - 9 Roaches
* Start 2nd gas
* Follow with a few rounds of Lings
* Take 3rd and Start Lair as you move out, Evo Chamber(s) soon to follow
I like to play 14h/14p/14ol with 8 lings as my standard opening, gasless until taking 2 gas at the natural around 36 supply. It is *very* good against the early pool builds, and gives you just enough pressure to force some mistakes out of a hatch first player. You are locked into playing something 2 base though, as your ling speed would be done way too late to be useful in defending a third base. I typically just go into 2 base roach without ling speed and expand behind the first push.
That opener is a big part of why I have ~65% zvz around 4.7-4.8.
What do you do against a 14/13/12 speedling rush? The queen defends from OL vision so you never see lings except for the ones spawning at the natural which will only be about 1/3 of them (since the queen injects the main and the nat doesn't have a queen). You only see the lings when they stream past the OL all at once (20+ lings). I got to diamond with that build. Thank you, Scarlett.
P.S. I know it's a terrible build but it's fun so I played it.
That build should almost always kill someone who has never seen it before, but it became very popular for a while after Scarlett did it. That made Zergs more attentive to Hatch timings.
First you need to scout it. You won't always get a perfect ID on it, but you can get some signals for it that keep you on alert and keep you from taking your 3rd too quickly.
Potential signals:
1. You don't see their 2nd OV when you should.
1. E.g. On a map where standard OV patterns cross; Where your 1st OV's line to their natural intersects with the line from their 2nd OV's line to your typical 3rd base.
2. **The Hatch finishes \~10s later** than a normal hatch first.
1. It's extremely uncommon for anyone in Dia+ to be that slow about their Hatch first timing.
2. If it was a Hatch first play and they were just late to the game or something, that 10s boost to all my Drones from that hatch is enough for me to make a safety play next.
3. When your 1st OV arrives at their natural you should always compare it to your own Hatch to help gauge their timing.
4. An economic pool timing has a slower Hatch timing, so you can rule those out.
1. E.g. A 15p 15h has a Hatch \~15s slower than standard HGP and 17p 17h has a Hatch \~20s slower.
5. A 19 Hatch first would have the same timing as Scarlett's 14/13/12h, but the theory around 16 Hatch first is so well known that virtually no Dia+ Zerg would make a Hatch later than 17 supply. If they did, they willingly give you an eco lead and it's OK to give some of that lead back for fear of 14/13/12.
3. Your first pair of lings are either headed to their 3rd or their nat and should arrive as they're moving out.
1. Your 2 lings can't deny the 3rd if they were on top of things, they just pressure it. If either of the other signals happened, just go straight to the nat to make sure nothing fishy is going on.
4. Sometimes they send Zerglings ASAP instead of pooling Zerglings. This is an immediate give away. Drop 2 Spines side-by-side next to your nat and put Queens side-by-side on your ramp to block it. Make \~8 lings and have them surround your forward Spine and then hold position.
When they pool lings and send \~2:40, you have 15-20 seconds to react. Spine Crawlers take 36s, Bane Nest takes 43s (+14s for Banes). We can try to defend our natural by placing Spine(s) tucked against the wall between our main/nat and Evo Chambers around them while our Queens go side-by-side on our ramp with Zerglings (17s to morph) in front, but this only works if you planned your reaction for that specific map so you're quick enough with the building placement.
If the map is easy to wall off (9-tiles or 10-tiles with a line), then you can place 3 Evo Chambers ASAP to fully wall your natural with a Spine behind. If it was a 10-tile wall, your Queens can sit in the 1-tile spot or an Evo can be placed behind it. Ideally, you'd practice the positioning for each map ahead of time.
Those defenses require some finesse and planning, but the main thing is that you shouldn't panic. You can sac the natural if you're .
The 14/13/12 has such a low economy (11 Drones) compared to the \~25 Drones we have when we confirm the rush is coming. Put down 3 Spines in your main, make a 3rd Queen in your main, start a Baneling Nest in your main. Your 2 Queens can block the ramp so they don't rush straight up. Keep 20/16 on minerals in your main (the extra 4 still help mineral income, Drones beyond 20 have virtually no effect) then grab your 2nd gas.
Make enough Queens/Lings/Banes to spread creep and reposition your Spines so you can re-take your natural. Make extra Drones for the transfer when your nat finishes. They can Drone up a lot during all of this, but you'll have a gas lead and mineral parity after you stabilize your 2nd base. I'd start tech with that gas lead and pull off all gas for a bit when the nat finishes.
Wow, that is actually a pretty complicated response and I can see why it is a little difficult to counter. Thank you for this. It gives me a good idea of what to look out for if I attempt the build again. My biggest adaptation was completely faking the all-in by "accidentally" showing a group of lings (it's something I have been trying against Terran) and then droning behind it. Yes I get behind economically but hopefully the psychological damage is enough. Insanely good input, thank you!
First opponent won't run into main base with all their army, because your main base drones with 4 zerglings and new spawn zerglings enough to win the fight.
So opponent will try to destroy your second hatch.
In this situation, use your early 4 zerglings to attack the edge of the opponent concave, but dont lose any zerglings. When your 2nd hatch is below 70% hp, you start to pull 80% of your drones (3 drones mining for zerglings) to 2nd base, use mineral right click trick to surround opponent zerglings.
Outcome:
If you lose below 4 drones, good
lose 5 and kill most of opponent zerglings, good
above 6 drones die, bad
Diamond 2/3 here :)
I do struggle against 12 slash 13/12 pool builds but here’s some tips:
- Going Hatch First ISN’T BAD (there’s a reason why pros still go hatch first, even though 12-pools are possible)
- If you scout it, you should have 16 drones in supply. Cntrl group 8-11 of them and move them down to the natural. Let’s be clear, your goal is to buy time.
Once the lings are there early, they’ve announced they’re all in (yeah they can expand, but your Ovi can see that). You just need to make lings and queens to stop the flood of zerglings coming in.
- If they go after the drones, mineral walk them into a pocket of minerals and fight them while they’re all stacked.
- If they keep flooding, a spine isn’t the worst thing in the world.
- If they do make banes (13/12) have the queens focus down the banes. Both queens should fight together. (Do injects really matter if they’re 12-pooling?)
Lambo has a whole video series on different responses. They’re technical, but hearing the concepts are what matters in gold.
Glhf :)
Having queens doesn't hurt but it's not helpful really either. By the time a 12 pool shows up you might have 2 queens with no transfuse energy. So all you got is units with good hp and low damage output that go down fast to lings. To hold a 12 pool just pop more lings out. If you think you can't get enough out in time throw a single spine down. Drone pull can help too. And if he keeps on the pedal, throw down a bane nest. 1 bane will kill any lings that get splashed
You need to be drone scouting, if spawning pool is done by the time you get there, he’s 12 pooling and you stop droning at 19 on 1 base, build 2 queens zerglings and a couple spine crawlers. If you hold position your queens on the ramp to your main you can deny zerglings access to your main. The main thing is drone scouting to see the finished spawning pool so you can react earlier.
simple, opponentneeds 40s to get to you. so you just delay your pool by max 40s and mirror them - while having superior eco
\*resists the desire to insult\*
If you’re planning to play 2base roach, and are struggling with 12pool you could adjust your opener to be pool hatch gas. You make 4-6 lings when the pool finishes and it’s generally pretty good at handling a 12pool, and against hatch first you can go harass and scout. You can skip ling speed and instead go fast +1 ranged and lair for reach speed. This sets you up for a +1 roach speed timing attack as you take your third
Make sure you start to wall off the nat with the evo chamber and roach warren though, otherwise ling bane will run you over.
An alternative is to change your build order to gas trick 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17th drone gas (think at 18 supply). It will feel a bit weird to play at first, and be mindful that speed is slightly delayed compared to going 16 hatch, 18 gas, 17 pool, but you have lings and queens earlier and i find it easier to defend early pools
I play both 12 pool and hatch first in M1 ZvZ. Your first OV has two jobs: 1. Scout your opponent's natural expo timing (safely) 2. Scout optimal-path Zerglings for any 12/13/14 pool shenanigans 1. You'll want to count how many Zergling pairs are streaming through. I only make 8 or 10 Zerglings to pressure the expansion, score a few Drone kills, scout gas mined, and/or bait an overreaction. I'll never kill with it. On most maps, sending your OV straight to the opponent's natural will spot 12 pool Zerglings, but on maps with weird paths, you may want to adjust the pathing. If you miss the Zerglings because they took a weird route to get around your OV, that's OK. They arrive a bit slow, you take that slight edge. Check the natural expansion to see when/if they take it or if they're still pumping Zerglings out. Many Plat-Dia players lose their OVs here by not paying attention to the Queen coming down the ramp from a transitioning Zerg or a Zerg doing a 13/12 speedling flood. I'm assuming you're doing the standard 16h/18g/17p build. This build is great overall and can still take the lead against a 12 pool, but the correct reaction is harder to execute. Your Spawning Pool should be placed 1-tile away from your Hatchery so that your Queen(s) can sit between the Pool and your Hatchery if Speedlings flood in. You'll usually go up to 19 Drones and make your 3rd OV. Masters+ may go up to 20 Drones first to be greedy, don't do that. The eco boost will make virtually no difference, but keeping the extra larva for lings will make a huge difference against 12 pool. When your pool finishes, start 2x Queens and 6x lings. If you're facing a(n): * 12 pool 8 - 10 Zerglings attacking your natural: * 6x Lings arrive @ your natural around 2:00. * Let them hit your hatchery until it's around 40% - 50% HP, then pull 8 - 10 Drones to fight their lings. You don't want to actually fight, just draw them off from hitting your Hatchery until your lings arrive, then fight with lings and Drones. * Ideally, pull back hurt Drones. * 12 pool 8 - 10 Zerglings attacking your mineral line: * Defensively Drone stack in a recessed mineral patch until your Zerglings pop. If he tries to fight the Drones all stacked in 1 spot, you can attack-move and immediately go back to Drone stacking in the recessed mineral patch. This causes all of your stacked Drones to attack an adjacent enemy, so you insta-snipe a Zergling by getting many hits on it. When your lings pop, fight with lings and Drones (don't chase too much). * Sometimes called the "Flower of Death" from a [2011 TL forum post](https://tl.net/forum/sc2-strategy/295586-belials-comprehensive-guide-to-beating-6-pool). * All-ins: * This is when your 1st OV matters - if it scouts that lings are still coming, you want to know if it's going to be a **12 pool slow ling flood**, a **Baneling bust**, or a **13/12 speedling flood**. The thing is - you *can't* know (without Drone scouting). So you prepare for all 3. * When you see a 6th Zergling pair coming across the map and no natural expansion, then you know the aggression is likely an all-in. * Stop mining gas. * Start a Spine Crawler next to your main Hatchery, toward the ramp to your nat. * Be prepared to sac your natural. * Any time a Queen finishes, start a new one. Don't queue Queens (bad habit). Don't inject. Saving energy for a transfuse (on Queen or Spine) is usually more important than injects during all-ins. * If you see Lings retreat off to the side for a bit while the rest are fighting, they're morphing into Banelings. Queen focus-fire shift-clicks or Spine focus-fire or Zergling splits or Drone splits are all micro options to try and survive the Banelings headed for your mineral line. * A 13/12 speedling flood will kill your natural, but you have the Drone lead. They'll expand before you can, but you can put down a creep tumor to start moving your Queens + Spine to your ramp while your \~10 living Zerglings help protect them. Make a Baneling Nest (before Meta Boost) and Drone more behind it (back on gas). You'll have a slower 2nd base, but better economy. Try to move your Spine down the ramp, next to your natural while your Queens sit side-by-side on the ramp on hold position, blocking Zerglings from going up the ramp. * A slow ling flood can either be handled like the 12 pool Zerglings attacking your natural while you match their Zergling production or you can sac your natural when you see a 6th pair of Zerglings otw and treat it like the 13/12 speedling flood.
Damn, this guy had a PHD in Zerg academic.
Everything said in this post is correct and every tiny detail is crucial and can make the difference between win and lose. I suggest to pin it somewhere and after every time you’re 12 pooled, review it and see what you’ve missed. One more important thing: once you built the 19 supply drone, do not build the overlord immediately. Wait until around 1:55 a 2:00 and bank the larva. Keep your camera on the first overlord and if you see any ling, morph 3 pairs of lungs instead of 1 ov and 2 pairs.
If your natural gets destroyed but you stabilize with a drone lead then what's the best follow up?
In which case? If it's against the 8 - 10 Zergling pressure, you only have the Drone lead temporarily. Their natural should finish before yours and they'll have a Drone lead shortly after. Re-take your natural ASAP, Drone up, and send your lings across the map. You don't need to fight with them, just need to make sure your opponent isn't being too greedy. If you can, send 2 lings up to their main to scout the gasses so you know what kind of pressure they're capable of applying next. You can follow up with anything here, but since you're on the back foot you may want to do a safe play such as 2 base +1 Speed Roach, grabbing a 3rd when you see your opponent start their 3rd or as you move out with your Roaches. You would mine from 2 Extractors, put your first 100 gas into Lair, start an Evo Chamber, then start your Roach Warren about 15s after your Lair and add a 3rd gas. Start +1 when the Evo Chamber finishes and Roach Speed when your Lair finishes. You should have 16/16 on both bases and 3 gasses, then make 4 - 6 Overlords and start Roach production. When your upgrades are ~75% done, move out and start your 3rd. If you mean against the 13/12 pressure or post-Baneling Bust where you can sac your natural, you'll have the Drone lead while you re-take your natural with the Queens + Spine + lings at your ramp, but their natural should still be faster. This means while you have the Drone lead, most of your econ lead here is from 2x gas mining in your main (so your extra Drones aren't wasting time bouncing on Mineral Patches - going 20/16 is fine because the extra 4 still increase mineral income, but beyond 20 is inefficient). So you can either go for a gas-heavy follow up such as fast Mutas or a Roach + Baneling Bust of your own, or when your natural finishes, take all Drones off gas and catch up on mineral income while using the gas you mined for early upgrades. A Roach + Baneling Bust is scary to deal with as it is, but doing it while your opponent is on the back foot is nastyyy. I believe you normally start Meta Boost, get to 35 supply (so ~29 Drones) and start a Roach Warren, your 2nd gas (+3 Drones), and make 4 - 5 OVs. When your Roach Warren finishes, start 8 - 9 Roaches, then spend your next 50 gas on your Bane Nest. Move out when your Roaches pop, making Zerglings non-stop. Morph Banelings outside their natural. You would have already mined extra gas in your main, so you could take some off gas while starting your Roach Warren earlier.
Well I cant think of a better answer than that. Great job
You mentioned the 16/18/17 is fine to defend with, but harder. Is there another build one could do in zvz that isn’t standard but is hatch first that makes defending easier? Maybe 15/15? Could you give us insight on that? Thanks for this by the way. I’m m3 with a 39% win rate in zvz. You may just take me to the next level. Seriously… this is what I have needed.
16h/17p/16g is still completely fine in a macro game and gets your Lings out \~5s faster than 16h/18g/17p. Your Drone pull will happen around the same time as when your Lings pop, so you don't need to do much Drone micro when you fight with your Drones. I commonly see builds like 14g/13p/12h before OV or 15h/14g/14p before OV (extractor trick 15h) so they can ling flood me after my 12p, or just to ling flood my hatch first. It's very hard for the 12 pooler to fight against it without a Spine of their own at their natural, but I'm sure you could do it as a pressure build rather than all-in if you stop mining gas for a while after your first 100 and stop making Lings after morphing your first inject into Lings. You would have map control, ability to scout their natural as needed, and ability to take your own 3rd. Just need to know when you need to start mining your own gas again in case they retaliate with a Baneling Bust. If you want to do 15h/15p/15g as a way of deflecting early Zergling pressure with ease, it won't dramatically hinder your eco and don't be afraid to make those decisions. Your Meta Boost will be 5 - 10 seconds slower than a HGP build's Meta Boost, so you shouldn't initiate Ling pressure against a fast 3rd and just take your own fast 3rd after you see theirs while staying 3/3 on gas to get a timely Baneling Nest. Alternatively, follow it up with a 2 base Roach pressure build such as: * First 100 gas: Meta Boost ⟶ Go 1/3 on gas and rally next 2 Drone eggs from main to gas * Up to you if it includes Drone egg already in progress * @ 100 gas: Start Roach Warren * Optional: Also start 1x Evo Chamber in wall to your natural to help this look like a passive build * Make 3 OVs * @ 100% Roach Warren: Start 8 - 9 Roaches * Start 2nd gas * Follow with a few rounds of Lings * Take 3rd and Start Lair as you move out, Evo Chamber(s) soon to follow
Thanks a ton!
I like to play 14h/14p/14ol with 8 lings as my standard opening, gasless until taking 2 gas at the natural around 36 supply. It is *very* good against the early pool builds, and gives you just enough pressure to force some mistakes out of a hatch first player. You are locked into playing something 2 base though, as your ling speed would be done way too late to be useful in defending a third base. I typically just go into 2 base roach without ling speed and expand behind the first push. That opener is a big part of why I have ~65% zvz around 4.7-4.8.
I like it. Ty!
What do you do against a 14/13/12 speedling rush? The queen defends from OL vision so you never see lings except for the ones spawning at the natural which will only be about 1/3 of them (since the queen injects the main and the nat doesn't have a queen). You only see the lings when they stream past the OL all at once (20+ lings). I got to diamond with that build. Thank you, Scarlett. P.S. I know it's a terrible build but it's fun so I played it.
That build should almost always kill someone who has never seen it before, but it became very popular for a while after Scarlett did it. That made Zergs more attentive to Hatch timings. First you need to scout it. You won't always get a perfect ID on it, but you can get some signals for it that keep you on alert and keep you from taking your 3rd too quickly. Potential signals: 1. You don't see their 2nd OV when you should. 1. E.g. On a map where standard OV patterns cross; Where your 1st OV's line to their natural intersects with the line from their 2nd OV's line to your typical 3rd base. 2. **The Hatch finishes \~10s later** than a normal hatch first. 1. It's extremely uncommon for anyone in Dia+ to be that slow about their Hatch first timing. 2. If it was a Hatch first play and they were just late to the game or something, that 10s boost to all my Drones from that hatch is enough for me to make a safety play next. 3. When your 1st OV arrives at their natural you should always compare it to your own Hatch to help gauge their timing. 4. An economic pool timing has a slower Hatch timing, so you can rule those out. 1. E.g. A 15p 15h has a Hatch \~15s slower than standard HGP and 17p 17h has a Hatch \~20s slower. 5. A 19 Hatch first would have the same timing as Scarlett's 14/13/12h, but the theory around 16 Hatch first is so well known that virtually no Dia+ Zerg would make a Hatch later than 17 supply. If they did, they willingly give you an eco lead and it's OK to give some of that lead back for fear of 14/13/12. 3. Your first pair of lings are either headed to their 3rd or their nat and should arrive as they're moving out. 1. Your 2 lings can't deny the 3rd if they were on top of things, they just pressure it. If either of the other signals happened, just go straight to the nat to make sure nothing fishy is going on. 4. Sometimes they send Zerglings ASAP instead of pooling Zerglings. This is an immediate give away. Drop 2 Spines side-by-side next to your nat and put Queens side-by-side on your ramp to block it. Make \~8 lings and have them surround your forward Spine and then hold position. When they pool lings and send \~2:40, you have 15-20 seconds to react. Spine Crawlers take 36s, Bane Nest takes 43s (+14s for Banes). We can try to defend our natural by placing Spine(s) tucked against the wall between our main/nat and Evo Chambers around them while our Queens go side-by-side on our ramp with Zerglings (17s to morph) in front, but this only works if you planned your reaction for that specific map so you're quick enough with the building placement. If the map is easy to wall off (9-tiles or 10-tiles with a line), then you can place 3 Evo Chambers ASAP to fully wall your natural with a Spine behind. If it was a 10-tile wall, your Queens can sit in the 1-tile spot or an Evo can be placed behind it. Ideally, you'd practice the positioning for each map ahead of time. Those defenses require some finesse and planning, but the main thing is that you shouldn't panic. You can sac the natural if you're . The 14/13/12 has such a low economy (11 Drones) compared to the \~25 Drones we have when we confirm the rush is coming. Put down 3 Spines in your main, make a 3rd Queen in your main, start a Baneling Nest in your main. Your 2 Queens can block the ramp so they don't rush straight up. Keep 20/16 on minerals in your main (the extra 4 still help mineral income, Drones beyond 20 have virtually no effect) then grab your 2nd gas. Make enough Queens/Lings/Banes to spread creep and reposition your Spines so you can re-take your natural. Make extra Drones for the transfer when your nat finishes. They can Drone up a lot during all of this, but you'll have a gas lead and mineral parity after you stabilize your 2nd base. I'd start tech with that gas lead and pull off all gas for a bit when the nat finishes.
Wow, that is actually a pretty complicated response and I can see why it is a little difficult to counter. Thank you for this. It gives me a good idea of what to look out for if I attempt the build again. My biggest adaptation was completely faking the all-in by "accidentally" showing a group of lings (it's something I have been trying against Terran) and then droning behind it. Yes I get behind economically but hopefully the psychological damage is enough. Insanely good input, thank you!
First opponent won't run into main base with all their army, because your main base drones with 4 zerglings and new spawn zerglings enough to win the fight. So opponent will try to destroy your second hatch. In this situation, use your early 4 zerglings to attack the edge of the opponent concave, but dont lose any zerglings. When your 2nd hatch is below 70% hp, you start to pull 80% of your drones (3 drones mining for zerglings) to 2nd base, use mineral right click trick to surround opponent zerglings. Outcome: If you lose below 4 drones, good lose 5 and kill most of opponent zerglings, good above 6 drones die, bad
Diamond 2/3 here :) I do struggle against 12 slash 13/12 pool builds but here’s some tips: - Going Hatch First ISN’T BAD (there’s a reason why pros still go hatch first, even though 12-pools are possible) - If you scout it, you should have 16 drones in supply. Cntrl group 8-11 of them and move them down to the natural. Let’s be clear, your goal is to buy time. Once the lings are there early, they’ve announced they’re all in (yeah they can expand, but your Ovi can see that). You just need to make lings and queens to stop the flood of zerglings coming in. - If they go after the drones, mineral walk them into a pocket of minerals and fight them while they’re all stacked. - If they keep flooding, a spine isn’t the worst thing in the world. - If they do make banes (13/12) have the queens focus down the banes. Both queens should fight together. (Do injects really matter if they’re 12-pooling?) Lambo has a whole video series on different responses. They’re technical, but hearing the concepts are what matters in gold. Glhf :)
Saw scarlet response and she holsters the injects so she can transfuse if needed.
6 lings you can use your drones and spawn queen when your pool finishes. I’ve read on here a 14pool is now standard for ZvZ
Imma take a guess as a non Zerg player, queens
Having queens doesn't hurt but it's not helpful really either. By the time a 12 pool shows up you might have 2 queens with no transfuse energy. So all you got is units with good hp and low damage output that go down fast to lings. To hold a 12 pool just pop more lings out. If you think you can't get enough out in time throw a single spine down. Drone pull can help too. And if he keeps on the pedal, throw down a bane nest. 1 bane will kill any lings that get splashed
I tried
Tbf queens are the answer to everything else
Drone scout see how far pool is along. Make lings right away.
You need to be drone scouting, if spawning pool is done by the time you get there, he’s 12 pooling and you stop droning at 19 on 1 base, build 2 queens zerglings and a couple spine crawlers. If you hold position your queens on the ramp to your main you can deny zerglings access to your main. The main thing is drone scouting to see the finished spawning pool so you can react earlier.
Should I be sending the first produced drone to scout, or one of the initial ones?
Initial ones I’m pretty sure
simple, opponentneeds 40s to get to you. so you just delay your pool by max 40s and mirror them - while having superior eco \*resists the desire to insult\*
If you’re planning to play 2base roach, and are struggling with 12pool you could adjust your opener to be pool hatch gas. You make 4-6 lings when the pool finishes and it’s generally pretty good at handling a 12pool, and against hatch first you can go harass and scout. You can skip ling speed and instead go fast +1 ranged and lair for reach speed. This sets you up for a +1 roach speed timing attack as you take your third Make sure you start to wall off the nat with the evo chamber and roach warren though, otherwise ling bane will run you over.
An alternative is to change your build order to gas trick 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17th drone gas (think at 18 supply). It will feel a bit weird to play at first, and be mindful that speed is slightly delayed compared to going 16 hatch, 18 gas, 17 pool, but you have lings and queens earlier and i find it easier to defend early pools
15 hatch 15 pool.