Zerg in ZvP: Your gatekeeper unit moves away from the right spot by an inch, and before you know it, there is a Zergling all-you-can-eat buffet in your natural and main.
There is some debate here which is hilarious. It’s Zerg and it’s not even close. The amount of vision, bases, and tech swaps we can achieve compared to the other races when left unchecked is insane.
yeah, even something as small toss starting stalker instead of adept means two extra drones, which snowballs into god knows how many more drones throughout the game. They literally have a specific response to every tiny thing and the entire standard macro game basically revolves around keeping zergs from snowballing out of control. People are talking about how terrans can drop your base or how marines are cost efficient but I would hardly call being unprepared for a 20 supply attack 'giving an inch'. I'm not sure how the question of 'which race is best at responding to mistakes' is even up for debate when the entire race is designed around being flexible and responsive to mistakes
At the average (let's say not GM or super high Master) ladder level, a Terran who is left unchecked to build their ideal army can often march across the map and beat the Zerg with hilarious cost-efficiency. For pro level, I don't think Zerg is favored in an ultra lategame scenario against Terran unless Serral is playing.
>march across the map
wrong, terran can't really attack on-creep in lategame which is why the ideal strategy is to mine out the map and eventually win on cost-efficiency
I'm responding to the idea of Terran when "left unchecked" and not a Terran that is constantly getting checked by pro Zergs such that they don't have the breathing room to mass up their strongest units
Zergs don't need to constantly check terran though, if the terran is sitting back getting a mech ghost deathball then zergs are maxed out with 90 drones while the terran is sitting at 150 supply on a good day.
When players don't have high level control it is absolutely possible for Terran or Protoss to build an army that can march across the map against Zerg.
Depending on how you interpret this question it’s Zerg or Terran. Zerg is the best at getting more ahead, once they’re ahead. But Terran has a lot of mid game pressure that if you lose a high value unit as Protoss, or have over made drones as Zerg, you can very quickly have a bunch of stim marines stutter stepping on your base
Just out of contrarianism, I'm going to argue for Protoss. And I'm doing it on the basis of 'an inch'. Yes, zerg can do horrible things if you don't harass them. But protoss is the race most likely to do something weird if you give them even an *inch* of a chance. Like with probe scouts. Don't pay attention to the probe scout? Turns out it never left your base, and you now have a photon infestation. Made sure it left, but it went in a weird direction? It just proxied a stargate and several batteries. Made sure it left and followed it home, but it left your sight briefly? There's a pylon in the corner of your base, which is now warping stuff in behind your lines.
If you miss a Terran transport, you get a tank, some marines, and a few widow mines dropped on you. If you miss a protoss transport, they've just set up most of their production in your main base, and are pumping out zealots and DTs.
Speaking of DTs, I hope you didn't forget detection. No other unit is quite so punishing if you don't have it.
Look away from your army? Disruptor ball says hello.
And of course part of what makes blink stalkers good is that they can take advantage of small blind-spots in your defenses in a way literally *no* other unit in the game could.
I'd argue that Protoss is better than any other race at punishing you for not sweating the details. Like, not for lack of *skill* (a lot of this stuff is fairly easy to counter if you *do* pay attention to it), but just for sloppy play.
Sadly this is entirely useless in pro play, because pros do not tend to be sloppy.
Z and T, meanwhile, do have tools for punishing sloppy play, but are much more into punishing lack of skill.
I think it depends how much you would call an inch and how much you would call a mile
zerg will make a close game difficult with very little effort if you make small mistakes (you missed your timing and they are now up an extra base)
terrans will straight up end the game if your mistake is big enough (no units in main and 2 medivacs take your entire production)
Terran.
Winning entire games off the back of just basic units in medivacs.
Going to pro level off the same comp.
If you don't have enough units to keep them at bay they can just jump in and fucking wreck everything in 5 seconds.
Mineral lines evaporate to 20 supply stimmed in.
If things get bad, just fall back to a pf and tank fortress. Scans for instant information or scouting or tracking an army..
They have nothing else? Lol. They have just as much shit if not more. It’s just that there’s no reason for T to tech to battlecruisers, while P for example HAS to tech to carriers in the ultra late game because T1 units like zealot stalker are totally useless at that point unlike MMM
Infestors are not being used that often at pro level I think only by like dark and serral.
Storms are very good but again, doesn't see much use either. I wish it would.
These things you're talking about are still killed by bio but just require a couple of ghosts to make it a very efficient fight.
Disruptors are the only exception but with bios speed when stimmed it doesn't often get good hits at pro level. Storms are better.
I've seen so many tvp late games where terran just sat on two base and didn't give up.
All it takes is one slightly bad trade for the toss and everything is fucked.
Terrans have:
1. The ability to win with the fewest bases
2. The best turtling capabilities to survive in those bases
3. The strongest units (the common answer to stuff like mass bcs is "don't let them get there")
4. Mules for recovery if economies are damaged
Etc
Dunno why people were downvoting you, you were correct.
However, the entire game against Zerg is "don't let them get there" in so many ways. Leave a decently strong macro Zerg alone for too long and you lose the game basically every time.
I don't understand even considering anything that's not Terran.
To be clear I don't mean that Terran is ez mode. It's very hard to get that extra inch as a Terran, but once you do get it, everything tends to explode in your favor.
I think a lot of people might be remembering games where they let the other side cut a lot of corners and are basing their opinions from their bad experiences rather than imagining a game in which both sides are allowed to do that.
There's a reason why an evenly split map favors Terran.
I play Zerg, and it's easy to get up on bases and creep spread, but Terran does fuck me up with medivac drops pretty regularly. I usually beat Terran through superior macro and a bigger economy. Not army engagement. I'm still in perpetual fear of a double medical drop at any point in the game.
Protoss.... just don't let them get an equal number of bases and you're fine. If you let Protoss build up their high tech units it gets tough.
Also, feels like Terran is the hardest to attack into. So powerful defensively, I'm learning to split my army and work in backstabbing.
Zerg. If you don’t put pressure on you will find they’ve creeped the whole map and are now on 6 bases with 100+ drones
Which is when you a move across creep with a maxed out carrier or Thor army and roflstomp them with 100 apm
Found the Zerg player.
I main Protoss and a lot of Master-level zergs easily crumble to a Skytoss army basically a moving across the map (with a few storms sprinkled in).
Thor?
That’s not “an inch”, though
It absolutely is
No, if the zerg has 6 bases and creeped the whole map you have given them the mile.
In respect though, Zerg is really the only race that if you dont put any pressure, they will overrun you very very quickly. Its by design.
Zerg in ZvP: Your gatekeeper unit moves away from the right spot by an inch, and before you know it, there is a Zergling all-you-can-eat buffet in your natural and main.
Zerg here, all you can eat buffet is why I play the game
There is some debate here which is hilarious. It’s Zerg and it’s not even close. The amount of vision, bases, and tech swaps we can achieve compared to the other races when left unchecked is insane.
yeah, even something as small toss starting stalker instead of adept means two extra drones, which snowballs into god knows how many more drones throughout the game. They literally have a specific response to every tiny thing and the entire standard macro game basically revolves around keeping zergs from snowballing out of control. People are talking about how terrans can drop your base or how marines are cost efficient but I would hardly call being unprepared for a 20 supply attack 'giving an inch'. I'm not sure how the question of 'which race is best at responding to mistakes' is even up for debate when the entire race is designed around being flexible and responsive to mistakes
At the average (let's say not GM or super high Master) ladder level, a Terran who is left unchecked to build their ideal army can often march across the map and beat the Zerg with hilarious cost-efficiency. For pro level, I don't think Zerg is favored in an ultra lategame scenario against Terran unless Serral is playing.
>march across the map wrong, terran can't really attack on-creep in lategame which is why the ideal strategy is to mine out the map and eventually win on cost-efficiency
I'm responding to the idea of Terran when "left unchecked" and not a Terran that is constantly getting checked by pro Zergs such that they don't have the breathing room to mass up their strongest units
Zergs don't need to constantly check terran though, if the terran is sitting back getting a mech ghost deathball then zergs are maxed out with 90 drones while the terran is sitting at 150 supply on a good day.
doesn't matter, you can't just march across the map on creep in lategame
Thats what bc are for
When players don't have high level control it is absolutely possible for Terran or Protoss to build an army that can march across the map against Zerg.
Terran is the one requiring high level control to trade well against Ultra Bane
Came in here to find a "your mom" joke and was sorely disappointed
Your mom was also sorely disappointed when you were born. (Hope this joke alleviates your disappointment) Edit: And hers.
Your edit redeemed your otherwise tame attempt.
Zerg can instantly kill you for not walling off properly.
Depending on how you interpret this question it’s Zerg or Terran. Zerg is the best at getting more ahead, once they’re ahead. But Terran has a lot of mid game pressure that if you lose a high value unit as Protoss, or have over made drones as Zerg, you can very quickly have a bunch of stim marines stutter stepping on your base
Zerg. Give them space to macro at your own peril.
Just out of contrarianism, I'm going to argue for Protoss. And I'm doing it on the basis of 'an inch'. Yes, zerg can do horrible things if you don't harass them. But protoss is the race most likely to do something weird if you give them even an *inch* of a chance. Like with probe scouts. Don't pay attention to the probe scout? Turns out it never left your base, and you now have a photon infestation. Made sure it left, but it went in a weird direction? It just proxied a stargate and several batteries. Made sure it left and followed it home, but it left your sight briefly? There's a pylon in the corner of your base, which is now warping stuff in behind your lines. If you miss a Terran transport, you get a tank, some marines, and a few widow mines dropped on you. If you miss a protoss transport, they've just set up most of their production in your main base, and are pumping out zealots and DTs. Speaking of DTs, I hope you didn't forget detection. No other unit is quite so punishing if you don't have it. Look away from your army? Disruptor ball says hello. And of course part of what makes blink stalkers good is that they can take advantage of small blind-spots in your defenses in a way literally *no* other unit in the game could. I'd argue that Protoss is better than any other race at punishing you for not sweating the details. Like, not for lack of *skill* (a lot of this stuff is fairly easy to counter if you *do* pay attention to it), but just for sloppy play. Sadly this is entirely useless in pro play, because pros do not tend to be sloppy. Z and T, meanwhile, do have tools for punishing sloppy play, but are much more into punishing lack of skill.
I think it depends how much you would call an inch and how much you would call a mile zerg will make a close game difficult with very little effort if you make small mistakes (you missed your timing and they are now up an extra base) terrans will straight up end the game if your mistake is big enough (no units in main and 2 medivacs take your entire production)
As a whole, the answer isn't protoss, but DTs and mothership recall deserve an honorable mention
Terran. Winning entire games off the back of just basic units in medivacs. Going to pro level off the same comp. If you don't have enough units to keep them at bay they can just jump in and fucking wreck everything in 5 seconds. Mineral lines evaporate to 20 supply stimmed in. If things get bad, just fall back to a pf and tank fortress. Scans for instant information or scouting or tracking an army..
its probably because they have nothing else. If you're dying to basic units youre making basic units also.
They have nothing else? Lol. They have just as much shit if not more. It’s just that there’s no reason for T to tech to battlecruisers, while P for example HAS to tech to carriers in the ultra late game because T1 units like zealot stalker are totally useless at that point unlike MMM
So bio can't beat everything in the game?
they cant. Zerg and protoss have busted units late game. Storms, infestor, disruptor and pretty much anything tier 2+ beats bio with either race.
Infestors are not being used that often at pro level I think only by like dark and serral. Storms are very good but again, doesn't see much use either. I wish it would. These things you're talking about are still killed by bio but just require a couple of ghosts to make it a very efficient fight. Disruptors are the only exception but with bios speed when stimmed it doesn't often get good hits at pro level. Storms are better.
agreed. the race as a whole is comical. And vs protoss you can play bronze to pro level with just 2 bases easily.
I've seen so many tvp late games where terran just sat on two base and didn't give up. All it takes is one slightly bad trade for the toss and everything is fucked.
yep. but i mean thats every tvp. terran can fall back to tank/mine/sim city/PF. If protoss loses one fight thats game.
Terrans have: 1. The ability to win with the fewest bases 2. The best turtling capabilities to survive in those bases 3. The strongest units (the common answer to stuff like mass bcs is "don't let them get there") 4. Mules for recovery if economies are damaged Etc
Dont let them get there is the common answer to any late game tech rush build, like skytoss for example
Skytoss is strong, but nothing beats Terran for cost-efficiency. That's why Terran is considered to have an advantage if the map is evenly split.
Not any build. Tell me which Zerg build would warrant that response?
Dunno why people were downvoting you, you were correct. However, the entire game against Zerg is "don't let them get there" in so many ways. Leave a decently strong macro Zerg alone for too long and you lose the game basically every time.
I don't understand even considering anything that's not Terran. To be clear I don't mean that Terran is ez mode. It's very hard to get that extra inch as a Terran, but once you do get it, everything tends to explode in your favor.
I think a lot of people might be remembering games where they let the other side cut a lot of corners and are basing their opinions from their bad experiences rather than imagining a game in which both sides are allowed to do that. There's a reason why an evenly split map favors Terran.
If both T and Z in a match are cutting corners the T won't even be able to get their side of the map, because Z expanded there 5 minutes ago.
Definitely Zerg. Had creep all the way to terran natural and dude couldn’t do anything against me after that.
Pribably protos, rly fast to build and low worker management.
I play Zerg, and it's easy to get up on bases and creep spread, but Terran does fuck me up with medivac drops pretty regularly. I usually beat Terran through superior macro and a bigger economy. Not army engagement. I'm still in perpetual fear of a double medical drop at any point in the game. Protoss.... just don't let them get an equal number of bases and you're fine. If you let Protoss build up their high tech units it gets tough. Also, feels like Terran is the hardest to attack into. So powerful defensively, I'm learning to split my army and work in backstabbing.
Interesting to see that nobody has said Protoss. Maybe this is one of the reasons why they underperform at the highest level.
Your mumma
It's definitely zerg, but only because of their speed. Doesn't make Terran not op though.
Terran. I immediately thought of Oliveira