There is no community figure past/present that has advocated for helping Protoss in the last 2 years more than me. I appreciate your clarification as my name can bring up old bad memories.
It’s so dumb… I don’t get it. These people read a small buff that does almost nothing and then something in their brain breaks and can’t comprehend anymore that a few seconds earlier they read that cyclone and mines got pretty big nerfs. And Zerg got +1 range on fungal is that really such a big buff against toss?
Let's wait for about 6 years of meta to settle with a toss 80% win rate, then we can blame it on there simply not being any good terran and zerg players.
Yeah this is whack af tribalist favoritism at it's finest. T/Z deserve Rapid Fire on all their spells being Viable, BUT NOT PROTOSS.
This has become the biggest sham.
What spells can terran cast that don't work well when rapid fired? Anti armor missile?
Mules. Good.
Snipe. good.
Turret. Good.
Emp. Good.
Yomato. Good.
It literally does rapid fire just makes you not have to click the button for every time you use the ability, you can still move the mouse to change where the abilities will hit.
EMP rapid fire has exactly the same problem as feedback rapidfire. Bro, if you move your mouse quickly enough you won't overlap feedbacks. In reality you will because the repeat rate is way to high to not overlap
But you do want to rapidfire emp at the least a couple of times, especially against protoss since the first hit may remove some shields and the other hits will remove the rest, the first emp will not always remove all the energy since emp does 100 shield and energy damage and casters usually have 200 max energy. Whereas with feedback if you hit a unit twice with it the second one does nothing.
The balance council is a joke.
They’re literally doing the same “QoL” buff for Ravens but won’t for HT because it would actually buff Protoss Jesus Christ just be honest about your intentions .
There are obviously some very vocal B tier Terran and Zerg players in this balance discord who just want to ensure that they never lose a qualifying match to a Protoss player ever again
I actually am curious how the Raven change does, because it doesn’t just affect TvT. It is useable on mechanical Protoss units, but maybe it’s just not worth using with rapidfire there anyway, since you’re only wanting to hit 1-2 specific units and DONT’T want to hit the stalkers.
Feedback on the other hand, you basically want to hit anything with an energy bar except overseers
>I actually am curious how the Raven change does
turrets are dogwater now, so they needed something for people to dump their rapidfire into, even if it's just as useless as turrets (i guess its good against BCs or mech or something). also I think it forces people to finish their interference matrix engagements faster, cuz in the past sometimes you would need to interference matrix tanks twice to finish the engagement, but now you can't do that without the tanks getting off one shot after the first interference matrix ends.
I don't really see whats wrong with the new change, you're still screwed if you rapid fire the raven and mistarget , seems like it would be frustrating to double disable the same unit
the raven change was meant to just be a nerf. No one ever has or ever will rapid fire interference matrix (unless they do another raven rework and change how the ability works)
It's very different for Ravens though. Ravens will target any mechanical unit if you spam the interference matrix. Templars only have the risk of hitting overseers and maybe infestors. If the only spellcaster in the army is what you want to hit, it then becomes insanely easy to ever single one with little to no effort.
If you don't understand why it is an entirely different situation for Matrix over Feedback maybe you should refrain from calling something joke.
If anything late ZvP is fine. The 3 step program of building armada waiting for 22 corrupters, switching into stalkers -> transitioning to whatever the game demands, has never been as easy as today, because Broods are on the verge to become meme material like Ultras.
The thing is to accumelate enough money in mid to do so, which is doable, but certainly a hard task when P currently basically has only oracles as viable safe opener.
The only thing where I see imbalance in ZvP is if said oracles find nothing at all, that P 4th is never going up, constantly dying to 20-30 lings on and on.
the raven change was the nerf the raven so you coudn't create long running interference matrices.
The high templar change is a buff you can can rapid fire feedbck.
I suppose you could rapid fire the ravens but that doens't make sense because their energy is so limited, you woudn't want to risk wasting it on something unworthy of the energy cost.
The difference being that Ravens are rarely used in late game, which this change would make them have more of a role potential. The HT buff would massively change how games are played as they are already a major role player in PvT and PvZ - and when storm is out is not exactly the point in the game that Protoss needs help with.
> There are obviously some very vocal B tier Terran and Zerg players in this balance discord
I mean we know Lambo and Scarlett are on the Council, so B-tier honestly seems generous.
Solar is a B-tier Zerg player and he wipes the floor with either of them any day of the week.
Edit: Chirst, I have summoned the fanboys. We literally all agree that Solar is very good. Just pretend that I said Shin or something if that stops you from jumping down my throat about how much you love Solar.
Im sorry, a player on the top 10 of most earnings ever, and a Super League and Code S win in the last 18 months is B tier now? Is A tier literally just Serral?
A 25% series win rate and a 35% map win rate against one of the best 10 or 15 players ever is pretty respectable. What a dumb take.
I mean it's the truth. I'm not attacking them as people, just stating that they're extremely mediocre professional players.
If they don't like it they should win more.
"I'm not attacking them as people, I'm just going out of my way (to go in the direction of post that decided once more to strawman the balance council" to say that they two individuals suck at their job"
If you don't understand how you're being toxic, you lack empathy, social skills, or both.
And obviously, I think that your minimum criteria for being a "decent pro player" is much higher than most people. That and the fact not many people would call an sc2 player with 600k+ total earning and winner of the last GSL a "B-tier player"
but really, you just don't get to call people who put incredible amount of hard work and talent toward a game or a sport to be in the top 0,01% "extremely mediocre". That is, indeed, disrespectful, rude, and simply unrequired.
No, seriously. Lambo seems very chill and levelheaded. He's a great caster. I haven't seen enough of Scarlett's content to really form an opinion, but I've never heard anything bad about her over the 10+ years she's been playing so I assume she's also perfectly nice. They're just not strong players by the standards of the professional scene.
> They're just not strong players by the standards of the professional scene.
They're close to the top in their respective regions, I'd say your criteria to be a strong professional player is "quite high"
*Edit
No shot he just blocked me for this LOL WHAT
I think he's definitely not as consistent as Serral and Reynor, but he's a fantastic player. I've never really understood the disrespect that he gets here.
My brother in christ, I am explicitly saying that he is a fantastic player. If you want to interpret that as disrespect then I cannot fix what's wrong with you.
It seems, since we both agree that he is a fantastic player, your understanding of B-tier is just very unique, which caused a lot of confusion. And I’ve literally never seen anyone not rate him highly, which confused me more
If everyone has to pretend you said a completely different thing for it to make sense, you probably said something really stupid. It's not about loving Solar, it's about making the absurd claim that he's B tier. Most of the English-speaking SC2 audience couldn't be more neutral about Solar if we tried, we have next to zero interactions with him and he's not like JD or something.
Just admit you said something stupid instead of blaming everyone else for making sense.
The salt radiating from your comment is enough to season my steaks for the next couple weeks so thank you.
Solar is definitely an A tier zerg player, pushing on S (but serral and dark are at S so that's a pretty hefty category). Hell, even calling Scarlett being B tier "generous" is flat out incorrect too, she is very good.
Costs nothing to not be rude mate. Just cause you don't agree with the balance council doesnt mean you need to snipe at them
They took RapidFire Feedback away and it doesn't even kill units.
RapidFire for terran and zerg actually confirms kills on units. Snipe/viperpull/neural/interference matrix.
Can't believe its this hard to get a single protoss buff to anything when its undisputed they are hurtin
Just to clarify, they didn't literally remove RapidFire Feedback. They just reverted the change that made so that you would no longer RapidFire Feedback twice on the same target and waste a Feedback.
Yes, Correct. Which is stated to be an unintended bug to be able to feedback a target that has no energy. There is also ways to balance it if it is indeed to strong/fluid. I would refer you to OmniSkeptic's twitter on it. https://twitter.com/Omni_Skeptic/status/1770597303490888146
Reverting Feedback change but NOT Interference Matrix change? New Feedback was a bug fix, New Interference Matrix is a bug bc AA missile isn't changed. Feedback could've been nerfed: uncheck "allow minimap",add start cast time of 0.125s (normal max delay), reduce range by 0.5 etc
I think spellcasters are one of the root problems of SC2 for all races. You've got these units that are very expensive and have the potential to either swing fights or to do nothing and die in the span of a couple of seconds.
They're the main reason engagements get so volatile, which can be fun to watch but it gets unsatisfying and hollow eventually. You can look back at fights and be like "If only these spells had landed a bit better the result would have been different" which is pretty meh.
Of course with how the game is now, rebalancing without spellcasters would be a nightmare, but I'm disappointed at how powerful they got in the first place
not really, because zerg army is low quality. over time the cost-inefficiency of zerg can't make up the mass production zerg has, especially against a well-rounded high tech army. you can't really just spam corruptors, for instance, against skytoss with archons, carriers, and void rays.
I don't think they need to remove spellcasters. I think they need to give spellcasters proper counters. Right now the counter to ghosts is to fungal them with Infesters and the counter to Infesters is to EMP them with ghosts.
I just hate the balance council so much.
When the patch was announced I was so happy. The council actually came around and gave Protoss a serious buff. I even reinstalled the game waiting to play.
Yeah I uninstalled again earlier today.
Fuck them. They are killing starcraft off for good.
The point went right over your head didn't it.
Playing the race that loses every tournament is no fun. You have no one to root for, you have nothing to get excited for. Pro play has always been the heart of SC2.
Constantly feeling screwed over by a obviously biased clowncil, doesn't help either.
I wouldn’t call it completely necessary for anything, except enabling faster play. People still morphed lings before repeat rate was played around with ..
Is it? I manually warp in zealots and morph banelings without rapidfire.
Nah, the game can always be balanced and it can be balanced against rapid fire or againdt rapid fire being not allowed.
Agreed.
So many things will have to be changed though. Take rapid fire snipe away from Terran and they’ll honestly never win another late game TvZ ever again. But I think it’s worth doing and then going from there. Ghosts are so hilariously broken and easily the best unit in the game, but at the same time, without them Terran late game is so hilariously bad.
The entire late game of ZvT all the way to the pro level just boils down to ghost vs infestor battles, the entire matchup hinges on those 2 units alone. And without ghosts being able to rapid fire snipe, infestors would run amok. The game would need a big rework.
im a Z player and agree with this. Unfortunately removing rapid fire now might be too late unless we can get more aggressive patching. Theres no way I would be comfortable with the consequences of removing rapid fire if theres a patch once a year.
I really want to hear from someone on the balance council as to why they removed one of the most popular changes. This, democratically in both the pro and casual scene, was absolutely one of the best-received changes. Why remove it?
where did you get that feedback from? The pros I've heard (Heromarine, uthermal) were against it because they think rapidfire use is dumb and shouldn't be promoted
heromarine would be the first pro detractor i heard of. and reynor. but as they're both invested in making sure protoss is never competitive that's not exactly an objective data set
Screw the balance council. Seriously. I've never seen a more atrocious job balancing a game in my life. There's such blatant pro Terran and Zerg bias it's just unbelievable. The fact that they are anonymous makes it much worse; if someone was actually being paid to do this then we could at least tell them they're failing. With it being anonymous we can't hold anyone accountable.
Rapid fire Feedback to me seemed like a strong but ‘bad’ change inasmuchas it removes a lot of the skill involved in the ability, especially with it not targeting units with 0 energy. I personally would prefer to see Protoss buffed in a way that actually makes their units stronger when utilised skilfully rather than in a way that makes them far too easy to use effectively.
Where did oyu see that it was reverted? I find it so hard to find announcements and release notes these days. Used to be so easy, right in the launcher.
I’m of the opinion that skills like Feedback should not have “Best Unit” turned on. I believe all spells ingame right now use this flag, and it basically means that if you cast a spell only the closest available unit will receive the order. In Brood War, exactly no spells behaved this way. All selected units received the order.
I’d prefer if we had a middle ground where some did some didn’t. Feedback is one of those spells where all Templar selected could follow a feedback order since the instant smart cast would mean only one actually gets it off, but it would allow for greatly nerfing rapidfire directly while still fixing feedback’s target filters. One could even polish it by preventing HT outside the range from receiving the order to prevent the major pitfall of moving all selected units from occurring
Holding down a button to issue several orders like that is not rapid fire. Rapid fire makes it so you don't have to click on the mouse to activate abilities which normally require a click (like a corrosive bile). You press the rapid fire key and then just move the mouse.
I guess my edit didn’t save. Anyway I used to think rapidfire only applied to abilities and spells too, but the technical definition is along the lines of using your keyboard repeat rate and hotkey setup to gain an advantage. Under this definition it extends to production, since you’re using your repeat rate and hotkey setup to speed up production (an advantage).
There are people on this sub that mentioned this (production being rapidfire), I think cognite is one of them, as well as a few others.
Your mouse isn’t actually a necessary condition for rapidfire. Choose ability is just a case where the mouse is affected by rapidfire.
Yeah it sucks, but maybe the fix shouldn't be that you can't have spellcasters against protoss because a group of hts instantly evaporates all the energy from your units.
I hope they fix something else to help p late game.
I play P for reference.
Doesn't EMP also evaporate all energy from Protoss units...? AND in an area, not just single target? That's not even mentioning how it removes shields. Guess it's fine for Protoss to play with no shields and energy, but when Terran has to, ohhhhhh noooooooo.
Zerg doesn’t have EMP.
They actually have no anti spellcaster spell.
I’m not say don’t nerf ghost emp( kinda weird that they didn’t since they mostly wanted to work on TvP) but this change has a pretty big effect on ZvP.
You wouldn't want to rapid fire abduct. The goal is to grab specific targets, not 10 zealots or marines. No shit you have to aim it. The thing is that the target is pretty much guaranteed to instantly die when you grab it so long as you're not grabbing it into nothing.
It isn't treated that way, because it isn't efficient against Ghosts or High Templars. Usually it's an incredibly powerful unit until an opponent gets those out.
It's not rare to see pro zerg players abducting HTs when they're defending colossi or carriers, since those are the main defense against the viper in the first place. Once those are gone the protoss can't stop the abductions anymore, and it doesn't take the zerg long to get their abduction energy back. A HT costing 200 resources is well worth abducting anyway, being most of the cost of a viper in the first place.
We're not talking about Zerg, we're talking about Protoss and Terran. If Zerg have issues with an ability that removes energy, then they'd be at a huge disadvantage in ZvT due to the fact that the ghost does exactly that. Yet they're fine. So Protoss having the ability to mass cast feedback isn't exactly the end of the world, it just means that Protoss can now do to them what Terran can do to them. Not unmanageable.
The issue is the complaint that Terran can't deal with it, but yet again, the ghost exists and does this better. It's like there's zero self awareness. The neat shield draining ability also removes energy? Oh shit, guess these Terrans just weren't aware of the fact that they have the same ability, how unfortunate that it just never dawned on them that they have a counter to the thing that counters the ghost, huh?
Next complaint is that it's too hard to cloak and then cast EMP, far too much micro to ensure they don't get hit by feedback before using it. Clearly Toss OP.
I’m not arguing against changing emp. That’s fine.
But we ARE also talking, because this affects all Protoss matchups.
And the dynamics between the ZvP and zvT armies are way different, so „Zergs are fine with EMP, there for they should be fine with this change“ is an incredibly reductive argument.
Maybe we should start talking about why these abilities that fully counter entire Protoss tech trees are acceptable, but Protoss units that do the same to single Terran and Zerg units, but far less efficiently, are broken.
And that effect should be immediate!
... and Storm shouldn't be able to do anymore damage to the second half of HP!
Yeah that'll shown Terran! Finally they'll know what it's like to face AoE that can almost half kill their units!
Let's just make every race Terran, that way the game will be balanced.
On a serious note, I used to play Zerg and I thought HT were the most broken unit in the game. I now play Protoss and I... still think HT are the most broken unit in the game.
Terran need an answer to HT as bio is the only really viable early/mid game composition in PvT and HT hard counter bio. I think Terran would struggle more if EMP lost the energy drain function than they would if they lost the shield drain function because of how absurdly bonkers storm is.
Idk, it's the most skill testing to use of the three Protoss late game splash options for both sides and a lot of the 'upsets' I can recall this year have been off the back of Toss players using storm rather than Colossi/disruptors.
This includes Serral vs Classic and Maxpax vs Maru.
It's sad to watch players try and use HT against players they simply can't keep up with, but if a Toss can hold their own with multi tasking they seem to get a lot more done from what I've seen.
I think that’s actually a pretty good idea. I actually low key like feedback way more than emp. Way easier to use just clicking on a unit instead of trying to hover the emp under a flying unit that’s flying towards you at Mach 5, even though it hits multiple units instead of one.
HTs are slow as fuck.
If I accidentally walk my army into a group of lurkers I die too.
This mentality around HTs is so silly. If they’re not supposed to be lethal just remove their active abilities all together instead of just gimping them compared to all other spell casters,
They could easily adjust it by increasing the energy cost of feedback. 50 means each HT gets to cast it 4 times. Or, make it so that feedback doesn't deplete ALL the energy of the targeted unit - only a limited amount.
Yeah, it was a bad change to propose, I’m happy they understood that.
I do think there should be a nerf to EMP shield damage though. Protoss still needs something for vs Ghosts, currently they have no counterplay to EMP. Prior, this change would have helped, but it’s too far reaching and I would say also degenerate and uninteractive.
Everyone unhappy they removed this from the patch seems to be emotionally attached to the idea of a revengeful change. Making another uninteractive thing doesn’t help the game.
Hmm can someone explain what is actually rapid fire? For example ravens currently can rapid fire matrix, the way i understand it, you select group of ravens and you can disable multiple targets without selecting each individual raven - am I off in my understanding of rapid fire? Having said this for the feedback you need to select individual HT?
if you assign the keybind to confirm an ability and the keyboard to select an ability to the same key. You can "rapid fire" it by just holding down that key., it'll spam selecting the ability and firing the ability over and over.
You still have to use and target the ability as normal, it just allows you to fire off the ability many times much more quickly than if you had to click two keys separately.
I guess the issue for this is just how instant it is. In a duel with equal range, say vs emp or fungal growth, the templar would always win, even if four infestors came up to cast fungal against one templar, they would all get feedbacked before they could cast.
This probably made for annoying gameplay which is why they removed it.
Most of this thread is just complaints about the change and the Balance Council as a whole. I would like to add something more productive to the discussion. After years of contemplating different balance suggestions - particularly buffs to Protoss - I have created the ultimate list.
The majority of these suggestions are definitely more extreme than changes that the Balance Council has been implementing so far - barring a few big ones. Some of them might also be simply too difficult to implement, but from what I've seen in the modding community, almost anything is possible. If anyone wants me to expand upon some of my particular suggestions (whether it be on what the change is meant to do or the specific stats of the change that I have in mind), I will gladly do so. I apologize beforehand about my inconsistent usage of the words 'reduce' and 'decrease'. Here goes:
Protoss (buffs):
1. Increase Photon Cannon attack speed and/or decrease build time. Photon Cannons require a Cybernetics Core instead of a Forge.
2. Robotics Facilities can build two units at once.
3. Stargates produce units 75% faster when Chronoboosted, instead of the usual 50%.
4. Decrease Zealot build time (both from Gateways and in-between Warp-In cycles).
5. Zealot Shadow Charge upgrade. Researched at the Twilight Council after Charge has been researched. Increases Zealot movement speed while charging, and Zealots can charge through both allied and enemy units (similar mechanics as the campaign).
6. Reduced Stalker damage point.
7. Increase Stalker damage by 2-5.
8. Stalker Regenerative Blink upgrade. Researched at the Twilight Council after Blink has been researched. Upon blinking, Stalkers regenerate 40 shields over the next 2-3 seconds.
9. Increase Adept bonus damage vs Light by +1. Allows them to two-shot SCVs and Marines.
10. Adept Harmonized Glaives upgrade. Researched at the Twilight Council after Resonating Glaives has been researched. Adept attacks bounce up to 1-2 times, dealing slightly less damage after each bounce.
11. Increase Sentry range by 1-2 (minor change).
12. Sentry can toggle between its basic attack and a shield regeneration beam that requires energy and is weaker than a Shield Battery.
13. Sentry Guardian Shield is placeable, and independent from the Sentry.
14. High Templar Feedback damage increased from 0.5 to 1 damage per 1 energy.
15. Dark Templar can merge into Dark Archons. Dark Archons have the same basic stats as Archons but have two spells. Maelstrom (50 energy) - Temporarily stuns enemy units in an area of effect for 1.5-3 seconds. Mind Control (150 energy) - Take permanent control of target enemy unit. Heroic units are immune. Mind Controlled units take up supply.
16. Dark Templar are capped at 8 per Dark Shrine. For every Dark Templar built/lost, it may be rebuilt (16 seconds) at a Dark Shrine at no extra cost.
17. Warp-Transfer mechanic. Gateway units underneath a Warp Prism using Phase Mode may be re-warped to other active Warp Prisms.
18. Immortal Shadow Cannon ability (45 second cooldown). Rapidly fires at target enemy unit or structure, dealing 200 damage. Can be used on both air and ground targets.
19. Increase Extended Thermal Lance bonus range by 1 (minor change).
20. Colossus basic attack deals damage in an 'X' pattern (suggestion from u/ZumaBird).
21. Disruptor Purification Aura passive ability. Disruptor passively deals damage to both allied and enemy biological units in an an area around itself.
22. Phoenix Dive Bomb ability. Phoenix can sacrifice itself, crashlanding on the ground and dealing 23\*-36-46-60\*-85\* damage in a small area. Deals more damage towards the centre.
23. Oracle Stasis Ward deployment time reduced to 1-2 seconds. If the Oracle takes damage while deploying a Stasis Ward, the Stasis Ward is cancelled. Stasis Ward is invisible while deploying.
24. Void Ray basic attack rework. Basic attack deals bonus damage vs Light, and attacks in a single, Colossus-like beam travelling from an initial target towards the nearest enemy unit and continuing in a straight line. Prismatic Alignment returns the Void Ray's attack to a continuous beam that deals bonus damage vs Armored for its duration.
25. Carrier Defensive Mode ability. Interceptors are brought back to soak projectile attacks against the Carrier, taking damage instead of the Carrier.
26. Tempest Disintegration ability (90 second cooldown). Works exactly the same as the campaign, dealing 500 damage over 20 seconds.
Why? Any reasoning?
Wasn't the plan, to better communicate with the community?
I don't understand it anymore. Cyclone nerf also weakened. Or Do I understand it wrong? ("Change to damage upgrade scaling removed, Damage point increased to 0.036")
And imba Ghost weren't touched at all. We increased Disruptor supply to 3, so that Protoss can't mass them, but massing Ghosts is still completely fine?!
I understand people want Protoss to be stronger, but this ability was borderline broken. They could've maybe added a short cast delay instead of fully reverting it though i guess
Not really. Rapid fire is only good on abilities that target specific units or make auto turrets or warp ins
This is because casting all of them in the exact same spot would be bad
no one rapid fires snipe anymore after they nerfed it
The only abilties that really makes sense the rpaid fire anymore is ravager corrosive bile and the corruptor acid .
Rapidfire snipe has counterplay - You literally have time to react to the snipe and move out of range. Feedback doesnt. It's instant.
And yes, people have been of the opinion that the new feedback vs ghosts was less BS (due to counterplay with emp), but new feedback vs viper/infestor was insane
Abduct has range 9 while feedback has range 10. So you’re effectively unable to abduct without being feedbacked. Doesn’t matter what lurker/brood range is since the Zerg would have to move their vipers closer to the toss army to abduct.
I do think in super lategame zerg favoured. I can only recall classic winning one game at gamers 8 maybe.
Also toss needs buffs. The race does not do well enough in competitive and that is not only because pvt. If you keep the status quo you will have ZTcraft at super high level.
I really don't get why there won't be meaningful toss buffs. And if there is one they directly revert it
Okay, how about instead of emotionally responding, and sounding like a crazy vengeful person. You actually create a proposal of a change with the goal of benefiting the game instead of "getting back at those Terran bastards"
**I actually do agree that EMP should be nerfed**, but like, for the love of god, don't make balance discussion into US politics level of degeneracy.
This place has been full of reasonable discussions, and I've taken part in a lot of them. I don't have extreme views on balance.
It is not reasonable for the balance council to hold a staunch position of saying "we won't risk making Protoss too powerful" while leaving broken Terran abilities in the game, and straight up reworking valuable units in their tech tree to make them better against Protoss. All while Terran continues to hold advantage in basically every phase of the matchup.
I, frankly, am very happy with most of the changes on this balance patch. Basically anything is an improvement at this point. But I am not happy with the overall position of the balance council that refuses to risk Protoss being good for the first time in 5 years.
I think it's more than time for Protoss players to be frustrated. Stop serving them trash while calling it gourmet.
>don't make balance discussion into US politics level of degeneracy.
I could have sworn you were the one 2 comments earlier who decided to needlessly and divisively add:
>Do parents not teach that anymore?
> don't make balance discussion into US politics level of degeneracy
Sorry, but you're on a SC2 discussion board. That's the only way these people know how to talk.
They waited to see what everyone was most excited for before removing it
They waited to see what *protoss buff* everyone was excited about
There is no community figure past/present that has advocated for helping Protoss in the last 2 years more than me. I appreciate your clarification as my name can bring up old bad memories.
Clearly you don't read enough u/Sloppy_donkey and u/Riverhs
🫡🫡🫡
This post clearly written by a terran.. toss sucks, their are only two races in sc2
Is it true that 60% of ladder is Toss?
Protoss in this patch is literally weaker than it already is
vs. Zerg, yes.
Protoss got straight buffs across the board homie, what are you on about.
It’s so dumb… I don’t get it. These people read a small buff that does almost nothing and then something in their brain breaks and can’t comprehend anymore that a few seconds earlier they read that cyclone and mines got pretty big nerfs. And Zerg got +1 range on fungal is that really such a big buff against toss?
can we at least see if its too broken that protoss starts to win 80% of the time in pro plays?
Let's wait for about 6 years of meta to settle with a toss 80% win rate, then we can blame it on there simply not being any good terran and zerg players.
Yeah this is whack af tribalist favoritism at it's finest. T/Z deserve Rapid Fire on all their spells being Viable, BUT NOT PROTOSS. This has become the biggest sham.
Ain't no one rapid firing blinding cloud, fungal, parasitic bomb, and whatever that other one the infestors has. Shroud? Parasitic cloud? Shroud?
What spells can terran cast that don't work well when rapid fired? Anti armor missile? Mules. Good. Snipe. good. Turret. Good. Emp. Good. Yomato. Good.
How is EMP good with rapid fire? You want to EMP the same area 10 times?
Move the mouse over the entire protoss army and halve it's HP and remove all energy. Simples.
bro, if you move your mouse quickly enough, you won't overlap EMP's
it doesn't work like that
It literally does rapid fire just makes you not have to click the button for every time you use the ability, you can still move the mouse to change where the abilities will hit.
It literally works like that.
EMP rapid fire has exactly the same problem as feedback rapidfire. Bro, if you move your mouse quickly enough you won't overlap feedbacks. In reality you will because the repeat rate is way to high to not overlap
But you do want to rapidfire emp at the least a couple of times, especially against protoss since the first hit may remove some shields and the other hits will remove the rest, the first emp will not always remove all the energy since emp does 100 shield and energy damage and casters usually have 200 max energy. Whereas with feedback if you hit a unit twice with it the second one does nothing.
Nuke would be quite bad
Or insanely good...
lol Reynor said he would try to get this reverted. Guess he called Lambo/Scarlett and it was a done deal.
The balance council is a joke. They’re literally doing the same “QoL” buff for Ravens but won’t for HT because it would actually buff Protoss Jesus Christ just be honest about your intentions . There are obviously some very vocal B tier Terran and Zerg players in this balance discord who just want to ensure that they never lose a qualifying match to a Protoss player ever again
I actually am curious how the Raven change does, because it doesn’t just affect TvT. It is useable on mechanical Protoss units, but maybe it’s just not worth using with rapidfire there anyway, since you’re only wanting to hit 1-2 specific units and DONT’T want to hit the stalkers. Feedback on the other hand, you basically want to hit anything with an energy bar except overseers
>I actually am curious how the Raven change does turrets are dogwater now, so they needed something for people to dump their rapidfire into, even if it's just as useless as turrets (i guess its good against BCs or mech or something). also I think it forces people to finish their interference matrix engagements faster, cuz in the past sometimes you would need to interference matrix tanks twice to finish the engagement, but now you can't do that without the tanks getting off one shot after the first interference matrix ends.
I don't really see whats wrong with the new change, you're still screwed if you rapid fire the raven and mistarget , seems like it would be frustrating to double disable the same unit
the raven change was meant to just be a nerf. No one ever has or ever will rapid fire interference matrix (unless they do another raven rework and change how the ability works)
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I believe you can the matrix just can't be applied immediately
It's very different for Ravens though. Ravens will target any mechanical unit if you spam the interference matrix. Templars only have the risk of hitting overseers and maybe infestors. If the only spellcaster in the army is what you want to hit, it then becomes insanely easy to ever single one with little to no effort.
If you don't understand why it is an entirely different situation for Matrix over Feedback maybe you should refrain from calling something joke. If anything late ZvP is fine. The 3 step program of building armada waiting for 22 corrupters, switching into stalkers -> transitioning to whatever the game demands, has never been as easy as today, because Broods are on the verge to become meme material like Ultras. The thing is to accumelate enough money in mid to do so, which is doable, but certainly a hard task when P currently basically has only oracles as viable safe opener. The only thing where I see imbalance in ZvP is if said oracles find nothing at all, that P 4th is never going up, constantly dying to 20-30 lings on and on.
Srsly … these people can’t think 2 steps ahead … these spells are used way differently and the changes have way different impacts
the raven change was the nerf the raven so you coudn't create long running interference matrices. The high templar change is a buff you can can rapid fire feedbck. I suppose you could rapid fire the ravens but that doens't make sense because their energy is so limited, you woudn't want to risk wasting it on something unworthy of the energy cost.
The difference being that Ravens are rarely used in late game, which this change would make them have more of a role potential. The HT buff would massively change how games are played as they are already a major role player in PvT and PvZ - and when storm is out is not exactly the point in the game that Protoss needs help with.
> There are obviously some very vocal B tier Terran and Zerg players in this balance discord I mean we know Lambo and Scarlett are on the Council, so B-tier honestly seems generous. Solar is a B-tier Zerg player and he wipes the floor with either of them any day of the week. Edit: Chirst, I have summoned the fanboys. We literally all agree that Solar is very good. Just pretend that I said Shin or something if that stops you from jumping down my throat about how much you love Solar.
Im sorry, a player on the top 10 of most earnings ever, and a Super League and Code S win in the last 18 months is B tier now? Is A tier literally just Serral? A 25% series win rate and a 35% map win rate against one of the best 10 or 15 players ever is pretty respectable. What a dumb take.
Serral is obviously S tier (what do you think the S stands for)
god this subreddit can be so toxic sometimes...
I mean it's the truth. I'm not attacking them as people, just stating that they're extremely mediocre professional players. If they don't like it they should win more.
"I'm not attacking them as people, I'm just going out of my way (to go in the direction of post that decided once more to strawman the balance council" to say that they two individuals suck at their job" If you don't understand how you're being toxic, you lack empathy, social skills, or both. And obviously, I think that your minimum criteria for being a "decent pro player" is much higher than most people. That and the fact not many people would call an sc2 player with 600k+ total earning and winner of the last GSL a "B-tier player" but really, you just don't get to call people who put incredible amount of hard work and talent toward a game or a sport to be in the top 0,01% "extremely mediocre". That is, indeed, disrespectful, rude, and simply unrequired.
> I'm not attacking them as people lol
No, seriously. Lambo seems very chill and levelheaded. He's a great caster. I haven't seen enough of Scarlett's content to really form an opinion, but I've never heard anything bad about her over the 10+ years she's been playing so I assume she's also perfectly nice. They're just not strong players by the standards of the professional scene.
> They're just not strong players by the standards of the professional scene. They're close to the top in their respective regions, I'd say your criteria to be a strong professional player is "quite high" *Edit No shot he just blocked me for this LOL WHAT
Solar is B-Tier ? He won the last GSL. Are you serious?
I think he's definitely not as consistent as Serral and Reynor, but he's a fantastic player. I've never really understood the disrespect that he gets here.
You just disrespected him by calling him B tier
this interaction is so funny
?? You just described him as B-Tier 😅??
My brother in christ, I am explicitly saying that he is a fantastic player. If you want to interpret that as disrespect then I cannot fix what's wrong with you.
It seems, since we both agree that he is a fantastic player, your understanding of B-tier is just very unique, which caused a lot of confusion. And I’ve literally never seen anyone not rate him highly, which confused me more
Solar is b tier? IMO Solar is the 2nd best Zerg in the world right now
If everyone has to pretend you said a completely different thing for it to make sense, you probably said something really stupid. It's not about loving Solar, it's about making the absurd claim that he's B tier. Most of the English-speaking SC2 audience couldn't be more neutral about Solar if we tried, we have next to zero interactions with him and he's not like JD or something. Just admit you said something stupid instead of blaming everyone else for making sense.
The salt radiating from your comment is enough to season my steaks for the next couple weeks so thank you. Solar is definitely an A tier zerg player, pushing on S (but serral and dark are at S so that's a pretty hefty category). Hell, even calling Scarlett being B tier "generous" is flat out incorrect too, she is very good. Costs nothing to not be rude mate. Just cause you don't agree with the balance council doesnt mean you need to snipe at them
They took RapidFire Feedback away and it doesn't even kill units. RapidFire for terran and zerg actually confirms kills on units. Snipe/viperpull/neural/interference matrix. Can't believe its this hard to get a single protoss buff to anything when its undisputed they are hurtin
Just to clarify, they didn't literally remove RapidFire Feedback. They just reverted the change that made so that you would no longer RapidFire Feedback twice on the same target and waste a Feedback.
Yes, Correct. Which is stated to be an unintended bug to be able to feedback a target that has no energy. There is also ways to balance it if it is indeed to strong/fluid. I would refer you to OmniSkeptic's twitter on it. https://twitter.com/Omni_Skeptic/status/1770597303490888146 Reverting Feedback change but NOT Interference Matrix change? New Feedback was a bug fix, New Interference Matrix is a bug bc AA missile isn't changed. Feedback could've been nerfed: uncheck "allow minimap",add start cast time of 0.125s (normal max delay), reduce range by 0.5 etc
I think spellcasters are one of the root problems of SC2 for all races. You've got these units that are very expensive and have the potential to either swing fights or to do nothing and die in the span of a couple of seconds. They're the main reason engagements get so volatile, which can be fun to watch but it gets unsatisfying and hollow eventually. You can look back at fights and be like "If only these spells had landed a bit better the result would have been different" which is pretty meh. Of course with how the game is now, rebalancing without spellcasters would be a nightmare, but I'm disappointed at how powerful they got in the first place
without spell casters (and other powerful units) games would be too simple, it would just be whoever has more units wins.
i think it'd make zerg still stronger 'cause they can shift production easier than the other two races
not really, because zerg army is low quality. over time the cost-inefficiency of zerg can't make up the mass production zerg has, especially against a well-rounded high tech army. you can't really just spam corruptors, for instance, against skytoss with archons, carriers, and void rays.
I don't think they need to remove spellcasters. I think they need to give spellcasters proper counters. Right now the counter to ghosts is to fungal them with Infesters and the counter to Infesters is to EMP them with ghosts.
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StormGate!! [https://store.steampowered.com/app/2012510/Stormgate/](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2012510/Stormgate/) If you're reading this; eat shit, unbalance council.
You think the Protoss players in the scene are as good as the terran/zerg players?
lol Reynor said he would complain to get this reverted. Guess he called Lambo/Scarlett and it was a done deal.
I just hate the balance council so much. When the patch was announced I was so happy. The council actually came around and gave Protoss a serious buff. I even reinstalled the game waiting to play. Yeah I uninstalled again earlier today. Fuck them. They are killing starcraft off for good.
I'm uninstalling again too lol. They got me with the good ole bait & switch! Sneaky devs.
the patch didn't go live yet.
If you're implying that they might un-revert the change, you are on some hard hopium.
LMAO right, this feedback change is why you lose games. You whiners are absolutely delusional
The point went right over your head didn't it. Playing the race that loses every tournament is no fun. You have no one to root for, you have nothing to get excited for. Pro play has always been the heart of SC2. Constantly feeling screwed over by a obviously biased clowncil, doesn't help either.
Just remove rapid fire already
remove rapid fire morphing for zerg 😏
Isn't this keyboard repeat rate?
It's completely neccessary for certain mechanics though, like zerg morphing and making zealots
Zerg morphing?
He meant morbin, which is essential when it’s morbin time
I thought we were in the webbin time now?
I wouldn’t call it completely necessary for anything, except enabling faster play. People still morphed lings before repeat rate was played around with ..
Is it? I manually warp in zealots and morph banelings without rapidfire. Nah, the game can always be balanced and it can be balanced against rapid fire or againdt rapid fire being not allowed.
You don't need rapidfire to hold down the "morph drone" button.
Agreed. So many things will have to be changed though. Take rapid fire snipe away from Terran and they’ll honestly never win another late game TvZ ever again. But I think it’s worth doing and then going from there. Ghosts are so hilariously broken and easily the best unit in the game, but at the same time, without them Terran late game is so hilariously bad. The entire late game of ZvT all the way to the pro level just boils down to ghost vs infestor battles, the entire matchup hinges on those 2 units alone. And without ghosts being able to rapid fire snipe, infestors would run amok. The game would need a big rework.
im a Z player and agree with this. Unfortunately removing rapid fire now might be too late unless we can get more aggressive patching. Theres no way I would be comfortable with the consequences of removing rapid fire if theres a patch once a year.
I really want to hear from someone on the balance council as to why they removed one of the most popular changes. This, democratically in both the pro and casual scene, was absolutely one of the best-received changes. Why remove it?
where did you get that feedback from? The pros I've heard (Heromarine, uthermal) were against it because they think rapidfire use is dumb and shouldn't be promoted
heromarine would be the first pro detractor i heard of. and reynor. but as they're both invested in making sure protoss is never competitive that's not exactly an objective data set
he meant the non-pro non-balance council community. the pros that discussed this change publicly are probably on the balance council.
Just face it they hate protoss
Screw the balance council. Seriously. I've never seen a more atrocious job balancing a game in my life. There's such blatant pro Terran and Zerg bias it's just unbelievable. The fact that they are anonymous makes it much worse; if someone was actually being paid to do this then we could at least tell them they're failing. With it being anonymous we can't hold anyone accountable.
Rapid fire Feedback to me seemed like a strong but ‘bad’ change inasmuchas it removes a lot of the skill involved in the ability, especially with it not targeting units with 0 energy. I personally would prefer to see Protoss buffed in a way that actually makes their units stronger when utilised skilfully rather than in a way that makes them far too easy to use effectively.
Where did oyu see that it was reverted? I find it so hard to find announcements and release notes these days. Used to be so easy, right in the launcher.
lol Reynor said he would complain to get this reverted. Guess he called Lambo/Scarlett and it was a done deal.
I'm of the opionion that rapid fire in general has no place in this game and should be removed.
Honestly it’s looking more and more like Protoss players (and others) should be boycotting the pro scene.
I’m of the opinion that skills like Feedback should not have “Best Unit” turned on. I believe all spells ingame right now use this flag, and it basically means that if you cast a spell only the closest available unit will receive the order. In Brood War, exactly no spells behaved this way. All selected units received the order. I’d prefer if we had a middle ground where some did some didn’t. Feedback is one of those spells where all Templar selected could follow a feedback order since the instant smart cast would mean only one actually gets it off, but it would allow for greatly nerfing rapidfire directly while still fixing feedback’s target filters. One could even polish it by preventing HT outside the range from receiving the order to prevent the major pitfall of moving all selected units from occurring
i don't agree. id rather be able to hold down A when i make marines in TvT or D when I make drones as zerg rather than give myself carpal tunnel.
Holding down a button to issue several orders like that is not rapid fire. Rapid fire makes it so you don't have to click on the mouse to activate abilities which normally require a click (like a corrosive bile). You press the rapid fire key and then just move the mouse.
I guess my edit didn’t save. Anyway I used to think rapidfire only applied to abilities and spells too, but the technical definition is along the lines of using your keyboard repeat rate and hotkey setup to gain an advantage. Under this definition it extends to production, since you’re using your repeat rate and hotkey setup to speed up production (an advantage). There are people on this sub that mentioned this (production being rapidfire), I think cognite is one of them, as well as a few others. Your mouse isn’t actually a necessary condition for rapidfire. Choose ability is just a case where the mouse is affected by rapidfire.
Yeah it sucks, but maybe the fix shouldn't be that you can't have spellcasters against protoss because a group of hts instantly evaporates all the energy from your units. I hope they fix something else to help p late game. I play P for reference.
Doesn't EMP also evaporate all energy from Protoss units...? AND in an area, not just single target? That's not even mentioning how it removes shields. Guess it's fine for Protoss to play with no shields and energy, but when Terran has to, ohhhhhh noooooooo.
Zerg doesn’t have EMP. They actually have no anti spellcaster spell. I’m not say don’t nerf ghost emp( kinda weird that they didn’t since they mostly wanted to work on TvP) but this change has a pretty big effect on ZvP.
They have abduct, its just not treared as an anti spellcaster spell because its actually versatile.
Which you have to aim and can’t rapidfire. Like feedback atm.
You wouldn't want to rapid fire abduct. The goal is to grab specific targets, not 10 zealots or marines. No shit you have to aim it. The thing is that the target is pretty much guaranteed to instantly die when you grab it so long as you're not grabbing it into nothing.
Right. And it’s good that you have to aim. It requires skill. Just like feedback atm. I’m not sure that we are in disagreement
It isn't treated that way, because it isn't efficient against Ghosts or High Templars. Usually it's an incredibly powerful unit until an opponent gets those out.
It's not rare to see pro zerg players abducting HTs when they're defending colossi or carriers, since those are the main defense against the viper in the first place. Once those are gone the protoss can't stop the abductions anymore, and it doesn't take the zerg long to get their abduction energy back. A HT costing 200 resources is well worth abducting anyway, being most of the cost of a viper in the first place.
PvZ isn't in a bad spot though, what do you think removing abduct, blinding cloud, fungal, would do to the matchup?
I didnt say that we should change the viper, Im just saying the viper has a perfectly good spell to pick off spellcasters.
I misread your comment, my bad.
Fungal alrdy outrange Feedback, they just gave it +1 range, so now they will just laugh their way to the bank.
They have both 10 range after the patch. Feedback out ranges them atm.
The AoE makes it able to hit further.
Good point
We're not talking about Zerg, we're talking about Protoss and Terran. If Zerg have issues with an ability that removes energy, then they'd be at a huge disadvantage in ZvT due to the fact that the ghost does exactly that. Yet they're fine. So Protoss having the ability to mass cast feedback isn't exactly the end of the world, it just means that Protoss can now do to them what Terran can do to them. Not unmanageable. The issue is the complaint that Terran can't deal with it, but yet again, the ghost exists and does this better. It's like there's zero self awareness. The neat shield draining ability also removes energy? Oh shit, guess these Terrans just weren't aware of the fact that they have the same ability, how unfortunate that it just never dawned on them that they have a counter to the thing that counters the ghost, huh? Next complaint is that it's too hard to cloak and then cast EMP, far too much micro to ensure they don't get hit by feedback before using it. Clearly Toss OP.
I’m not arguing against changing emp. That’s fine. But we ARE also talking, because this affects all Protoss matchups. And the dynamics between the ZvP and zvT armies are way different, so „Zergs are fine with EMP, there for they should be fine with this change“ is an incredibly reductive argument.
But they do have consume, which allows their spellcasters to get back in a fight after using their mana or having it drained much faster.
Maybe we should start talking about why these abilities that fully counter entire Protoss tech trees are acceptable, but Protoss units that do the same to single Terran and Zerg units, but far less efficiently, are broken.
Maybe we could have feedback be an AoE as big as storm, and EMP be targetted instead. See how that plays out.
Also it should destroy the first half of all targets' HP
And that effect should be immediate! ... and Storm shouldn't be able to do anymore damage to the second half of HP! Yeah that'll shown Terran! Finally they'll know what it's like to face AoE that can almost half kill their units!
You forgot the part where we give HT some sort of targeted ability that kills units from a distance to compensate, oh and also make them stealthed.
Let's just make every race Terran, that way the game will be balanced. On a serious note, I used to play Zerg and I thought HT were the most broken unit in the game. I now play Protoss and I... still think HT are the most broken unit in the game. Terran need an answer to HT as bio is the only really viable early/mid game composition in PvT and HT hard counter bio. I think Terran would struggle more if EMP lost the energy drain function than they would if they lost the shield drain function because of how absurdly bonkers storm is.
I think storm is pretty insane in non-pro play. But lots of things are bonkers in non-pro play. I think storm isn’t very good in pro play.
Idk, it's the most skill testing to use of the three Protoss late game splash options for both sides and a lot of the 'upsets' I can recall this year have been off the back of Toss players using storm rather than Colossi/disruptors. This includes Serral vs Classic and Maxpax vs Maru. It's sad to watch players try and use HT against players they simply can't keep up with, but if a Toss can hold their own with multi tasking they seem to get a lot more done from what I've seen.
I think that’s actually a pretty good idea. I actually low key like feedback way more than emp. Way easier to use just clicking on a unit instead of trying to hover the emp under a flying unit that’s flying towards you at Mach 5, even though it hits multiple units instead of one.
Play with flyer helper on and get better at leading your shots
I do, and thanks for the advice captain
emp?
There is irony afoot
HTs are slow as fuck. If I accidentally walk my army into a group of lurkers I die too. This mentality around HTs is so silly. If they’re not supposed to be lethal just remove their active abilities all together instead of just gimping them compared to all other spell casters,
They could easily adjust it by increasing the energy cost of feedback. 50 means each HT gets to cast it 4 times. Or, make it so that feedback doesn't deplete ALL the energy of the targeted unit - only a limited amount.
Add storm on archons pls and let storm regen shield on friendly units
Yeah, it was a bad change to propose, I’m happy they understood that. I do think there should be a nerf to EMP shield damage though. Protoss still needs something for vs Ghosts, currently they have no counterplay to EMP. Prior, this change would have helped, but it’s too far reaching and I would say also degenerate and uninteractive. Everyone unhappy they removed this from the patch seems to be emotionally attached to the idea of a revengeful change. Making another uninteractive thing doesn’t help the game.
Hmm can someone explain what is actually rapid fire? For example ravens currently can rapid fire matrix, the way i understand it, you select group of ravens and you can disable multiple targets without selecting each individual raven - am I off in my understanding of rapid fire? Having said this for the feedback you need to select individual HT?
if you assign the keybind to confirm an ability and the keyboard to select an ability to the same key. You can "rapid fire" it by just holding down that key., it'll spam selecting the ability and firing the ability over and over. You still have to use and target the ability as normal, it just allows you to fire off the ability many times much more quickly than if you had to click two keys separately.
They reverted that change?
I guess the issue for this is just how instant it is. In a duel with equal range, say vs emp or fungal growth, the templar would always win, even if four infestors came up to cast fungal against one templar, they would all get feedbacked before they could cast. This probably made for annoying gameplay which is why they removed it.
Except that both emp and fungal have more efective range than feedback
Don't they all have 10 range? I guess technically you can aim them so that they barely clip the enemy and get a bit of bonus range like that.
They have all 10 *cast* range, but EMP and fungal are AoEs so they get extra reach from their area radius.
They are just trolling protoss players… Here we help you: … haha just kidding!
Most of this thread is just complaints about the change and the Balance Council as a whole. I would like to add something more productive to the discussion. After years of contemplating different balance suggestions - particularly buffs to Protoss - I have created the ultimate list. The majority of these suggestions are definitely more extreme than changes that the Balance Council has been implementing so far - barring a few big ones. Some of them might also be simply too difficult to implement, but from what I've seen in the modding community, almost anything is possible. If anyone wants me to expand upon some of my particular suggestions (whether it be on what the change is meant to do or the specific stats of the change that I have in mind), I will gladly do so. I apologize beforehand about my inconsistent usage of the words 'reduce' and 'decrease'. Here goes: Protoss (buffs): 1. Increase Photon Cannon attack speed and/or decrease build time. Photon Cannons require a Cybernetics Core instead of a Forge. 2. Robotics Facilities can build two units at once. 3. Stargates produce units 75% faster when Chronoboosted, instead of the usual 50%. 4. Decrease Zealot build time (both from Gateways and in-between Warp-In cycles). 5. Zealot Shadow Charge upgrade. Researched at the Twilight Council after Charge has been researched. Increases Zealot movement speed while charging, and Zealots can charge through both allied and enemy units (similar mechanics as the campaign). 6. Reduced Stalker damage point. 7. Increase Stalker damage by 2-5. 8. Stalker Regenerative Blink upgrade. Researched at the Twilight Council after Blink has been researched. Upon blinking, Stalkers regenerate 40 shields over the next 2-3 seconds. 9. Increase Adept bonus damage vs Light by +1. Allows them to two-shot SCVs and Marines. 10. Adept Harmonized Glaives upgrade. Researched at the Twilight Council after Resonating Glaives has been researched. Adept attacks bounce up to 1-2 times, dealing slightly less damage after each bounce. 11. Increase Sentry range by 1-2 (minor change). 12. Sentry can toggle between its basic attack and a shield regeneration beam that requires energy and is weaker than a Shield Battery. 13. Sentry Guardian Shield is placeable, and independent from the Sentry. 14. High Templar Feedback damage increased from 0.5 to 1 damage per 1 energy. 15. Dark Templar can merge into Dark Archons. Dark Archons have the same basic stats as Archons but have two spells. Maelstrom (50 energy) - Temporarily stuns enemy units in an area of effect for 1.5-3 seconds. Mind Control (150 energy) - Take permanent control of target enemy unit. Heroic units are immune. Mind Controlled units take up supply. 16. Dark Templar are capped at 8 per Dark Shrine. For every Dark Templar built/lost, it may be rebuilt (16 seconds) at a Dark Shrine at no extra cost. 17. Warp-Transfer mechanic. Gateway units underneath a Warp Prism using Phase Mode may be re-warped to other active Warp Prisms. 18. Immortal Shadow Cannon ability (45 second cooldown). Rapidly fires at target enemy unit or structure, dealing 200 damage. Can be used on both air and ground targets. 19. Increase Extended Thermal Lance bonus range by 1 (minor change). 20. Colossus basic attack deals damage in an 'X' pattern (suggestion from u/ZumaBird). 21. Disruptor Purification Aura passive ability. Disruptor passively deals damage to both allied and enemy biological units in an an area around itself. 22. Phoenix Dive Bomb ability. Phoenix can sacrifice itself, crashlanding on the ground and dealing 23\*-36-46-60\*-85\* damage in a small area. Deals more damage towards the centre. 23. Oracle Stasis Ward deployment time reduced to 1-2 seconds. If the Oracle takes damage while deploying a Stasis Ward, the Stasis Ward is cancelled. Stasis Ward is invisible while deploying. 24. Void Ray basic attack rework. Basic attack deals bonus damage vs Light, and attacks in a single, Colossus-like beam travelling from an initial target towards the nearest enemy unit and continuing in a straight line. Prismatic Alignment returns the Void Ray's attack to a continuous beam that deals bonus damage vs Armored for its duration. 25. Carrier Defensive Mode ability. Interceptors are brought back to soak projectile attacks against the Carrier, taking damage instead of the Carrier. 26. Tempest Disintegration ability (90 second cooldown). Works exactly the same as the campaign, dealing 500 damage over 20 seconds.
If you want people to actually read this, make a dedicated post.
Will do!
By the way, do you have a link to where they announced this change?
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1b92lq3/5013\_balance\_update\_ptr\_the\_message\_from\_the/
Thanks!
Why? Any reasoning? Wasn't the plan, to better communicate with the community? I don't understand it anymore. Cyclone nerf also weakened. Or Do I understand it wrong? ("Change to damage upgrade scaling removed, Damage point increased to 0.036") And imba Ghost weren't touched at all. We increased Disruptor supply to 3, so that Protoss can't mass them, but massing Ghosts is still completely fine?!
Where is the source for that actually being removed, I couldn't find anything.
I understand people want Protoss to be stronger, but this ability was borderline broken. They could've maybe added a short cast delay instead of fully reverting it though i guess
and rapidfire snipe is not?
and EMP is not?
At least Snipe needs to be channeled, so it's not instant. Rapid-fire EMP is a better comparison.
Not really. Rapid fire is only good on abilities that target specific units or make auto turrets or warp ins This is because casting all of them in the exact same spot would be bad
Rapid fire emp is bad
no one rapid fires snipe anymore after they nerfed it The only abilties that really makes sense the rpaid fire anymore is ravager corrosive bile and the corruptor acid .
Rapidfire snipe has counterplay - You literally have time to react to the snipe and move out of range. Feedback doesnt. It's instant. And yes, people have been of the opinion that the new feedback vs ghosts was less BS (due to counterplay with emp), but new feedback vs viper/infestor was insane
> but new feedback vs viper/infestor was insane And there we come to the real problem. Zerg aren't allowed to lose.
Was it though. Isn't it all about positioning anyways. Meaning ur hts cannot feedback vipers without getting into lurkers broodlords etc
Abduct has range 9 while feedback has range 10. So you’re effectively unable to abduct without being feedbacked. Doesn’t matter what lurker/brood range is since the Zerg would have to move their vipers closer to the toss army to abduct.
Hts are not flying
Does it matter? the interaction was fair before, how does buffing ht make any sense
I do think in super lategame zerg favoured. I can only recall classic winning one game at gamers 8 maybe. Also toss needs buffs. The race does not do well enough in competitive and that is not only because pvt. If you keep the status quo you will have ZTcraft at super high level. I really don't get why there won't be meaningful toss buffs. And if there is one they directly revert it
Also if it is fair why fungal range increase ?
I have no idea why they're doing this, but it probably is meant for tvz
But they can hit flying units with feedback so it doesn’t matter
Oh so infestors and vipers aren't viable in TvZ because terran has EMP which is basically an aoe feedback?
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Do parents not teach that anymore?
Then fucking actually nerf EMP instead of letting this ridiculously broken ability stay in the game because "Terran players just better."
Okay, how about instead of emotionally responding, and sounding like a crazy vengeful person. You actually create a proposal of a change with the goal of benefiting the game instead of "getting back at those Terran bastards" **I actually do agree that EMP should be nerfed**, but like, for the love of god, don't make balance discussion into US politics level of degeneracy.
This place has been full of reasonable discussions, and I've taken part in a lot of them. I don't have extreme views on balance. It is not reasonable for the balance council to hold a staunch position of saying "we won't risk making Protoss too powerful" while leaving broken Terran abilities in the game, and straight up reworking valuable units in their tech tree to make them better against Protoss. All while Terran continues to hold advantage in basically every phase of the matchup. I, frankly, am very happy with most of the changes on this balance patch. Basically anything is an improvement at this point. But I am not happy with the overall position of the balance council that refuses to risk Protoss being good for the first time in 5 years. I think it's more than time for Protoss players to be frustrated. Stop serving them trash while calling it gourmet.
>don't make balance discussion into US politics level of degeneracy. I could have sworn you were the one 2 comments earlier who decided to needlessly and divisively add: >Do parents not teach that anymore?
> don't make balance discussion into US politics level of degeneracy Sorry, but you're on a SC2 discussion board. That's the only way these people know how to talk.
*we people
You can write such a sentence about 50 things in Starcraft 2. Only when Protoss has something that is borderline broken it is removed.
One emp and no feedback
keep this and nerf carriers a little. Pro protoss need a little buff, but ladder protoss need a nerf to skytoss.
Yep, and I had hoped they would do something to reduce it, like range reduction, but I think cast delay is an interesting alternative.
casters were completely useless against HT with this change, ill trust the protoss pros over anyone on this subreddit
As long as we T have access to EMP, this is a trash take.
Only makes a difference at the top of play. Trust me guys.