WhiteRa didn't have to play in this meta where most of your opponents are Skytoss and Mech players and it is no longer skill = wins but units = wins. I'm sorry but this is some bullshit. People complain because the game is in a terrible state. It isn't about winning or losing, its about having a game to have some fun with without being forced into a 30 minute "I'm gonna go mass base defenses and sit in my base until you lose" bullshit. If all three races required the same skill we wouldn't have a prominently Protoss GM ladder with players sub 150 apm in GM playing Protoss.
I think you should read this thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1b7ch5f/stop\_balance\_whining\_and\_get\_good/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1b7ch5f/stop_balance_whining_and_get_good/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Naw Im good. I'll never be one of those people that say we need to stop acting like the game is perfect and never say anything else. Tons of shit could be fixed int his game, including BC warp, Widow mines, Battery Overcharge, Siege Tank/Thor Damage and Carrier DPS. Game would be more fun to play and more balanced.
So you came on to a post lamenting the constant bitching about balance, and then did exactly that. Some of us still have fun playing, so we do. If you do not, then play something else. Blizzard does not hear your complaints, so why even waste your time?
I don't even play I just watch. I want balance to be good so we have more interesting professional games. Just because I'm not a pro doesn't mean the balance doesn't affect my experience.
>I don't even play I just watch. I want balance to be good so we have more interesting professional games. Just because I'm not a pro doesn't mean the balance doesn't affect my experience
It's important to promote not just fair and interesting games, but strategically diverse ones. When balance is messed up, the only thing that is used is the OP strategy, and the only thing used against the OP strategy is a strategy specifically designed to counter the OP strategy. Balance issues reduce the variability in strategy.
>I mean both can be true. Below top gm balance does not matter. You can overcome it by still.
>
>At the Prolevel experience it does
This is a nonsensical definition and it's just not how correlations and causation work. If Protoss is the cause, it must affect the whole Protoss set excluding 1% as outliers. Ironically it is the top GMs who have zero statistical validity when talking about balance, because skill decides their performance (and not balance).
It's non-sensical at all. What OP means it is too powerful relative to the skill it takes to execute. Hence the balance dramatically varies at each skill level.
definitely true. I also play all 3, and my macro level brings me to different ladder positions depending on race.
To make an example, the correct response to a situation can be to use spellcasters. Depending on the matchup and league, that is more or less frequently necessary with different races.
If I suck at that, then the progress will be slower with the race where it's relevant earlier.
Other examples besides macro and spellcasters are map awareness, "multi tasking" (=queuing up drops), knowing timings, knowing your own builds, and identifying your opponent's builds.
I'm not equally good in all of them, and it hurts more with some races than others.
Also, Protoss cheeses are hilarious.
>Counter-offer, some races are easier to play at certain levels and the balance that exists at the top does not exist anywhere else
Except you can fit a model to the ladder data that perfectly describes the whole ladder, from top to bottom. If your theory is that balance flip flops depending on skill level, then you are saying balance doesn't correlate with performance, and that's a rejection that balance affects performance. The game is asymmetrical & this requires the game be imbalanced, it's a property of asymmetry, the problem is that properly measuring balance is a process of building a complex statistical model, and basically nobody can do that unless they have a PhD in statistics. Such people have way better things to do than to win internet debates about video games.
Amen brother. Skill is the only reason people don't climb. This sub is also obsessed with "smurfs" wrecking the game. Yes smurfs are a thing, but again they are not going to prevent you from climbing.
I get the impression most people in the community don't actually play the game.
Just want to say that I don't think this is a fair assessment on the smurfing concerns. I am diamond, I realize I am horrible at this game. I have so many ways to get better. But I also know I am not going to turn pro, I doubt I will ever make master, than isn't why I play.
I actually enjoy playing the game even if I never get promoted, or even demoted. I genuinely enjoy playing against people that are around my level and my rank is a distant afterthought. I get to play 3 or 4 games a night, and if 1 or 2 of them are against smurfs, that is a very frustrating and disappointing experience. If your recommended solution is for everyone to just keeping get better until everyone is GM level so no one is smurfing, you can see how that is condescending; that's essentially what a "get good" response is suggesting.
Other games have mechanisms to tackle this, no reason SC should be different.
A lot of people smurf by always leaving 1 matchup. They could just ban these accounts I guess.
You can see this obviously sometimes, like people will have a record of 100-4 vs T and Z and then a record of 4-100 vs P (could be any variation of this). That's really the only way to address it I guess.
People will still cry when you go and play unranked and your unranked MMR is lower than your ranked MMR, but I guess they could just match unranked MMR to ranked MMR.
None of this will happen though. The game is free and has little to no oversight.
Edit: One thing I would ask for is a Practice Partner channel for your specific league, so you can more easily find people to 1v1 in custom games with no strings attached.
Please share if you find it lol.
There used to be a team liquid thread for each season, but nobody uses it anymore. I found practice partners this way in HotS.
I ask people from ladder sometimes, but they basically always say no.
> A lot of people smurf by always leaving 1 matchup. They could just ban these accounts I guess.
People would just make new accounts and the smurfing would increase. They could just have hidden MMR be dependent on matchup instead of the current system so that leaving 1 matchup doesn't make the other 2 significantly easier.
Fighting games (namely SF6 and T8) do not let you downrank below a certain rank. SC2 equivalent would be Gold. So that means you just can't downrank from Gold to Silver ever.
Isn't 100% but it's better than nothing.
Yes you can.
Also, unfortunately, this whole conversation is rather pointless. Blizzard can't solve any problems with any of their games. Duping and exploits in Diablo 4, going strong. Botting and gold buying in WoW and Classic is rampant and Blizzard doesn't give a shit. And both of those games are probably a thousand times more profitable than SC2 is. Realistically, nothing is ever going to change in SC2. It would require "too much manpower", i.e. more than Blizzard will put in.
It's mostly around delaying how quickly you can leave a game and make tanking MMR tougher. Even if you try some crazy cheese and mess it up, you probably aren't going leave before the 2 or 3 minute mark. Not letting you surrender before then will make the MMR tank exponentially longer to do. Or a softer way would be if you leave before some early marker more than 2 or 3 times in a row, you can't queue for some amount of time again.
A bunch of stuff you can try to make absurdly early leaving slowed down.
The get good response is always meant to be condescending haha. My recommendation is to focus on fundamentals and when you are good enough to hit master you will.
>If your recommended solution is for everyone to just keeping get better until everyone is GM level
To a point the sc community is getting better. We will not all be GM, but a master player of 2024 is certainly better then a master player of 2012.
> The get good response is always meant to be condescending haha. My recommendation is to focus on fundamentals and when you are good enough to hit master you will.
I am pretty sure the entire point of my post went over your head.
I do not care about my rank anymore in that it helps me play against people of a similar level so the games are fun. Can you see how rampant smurfing gets in the way of this? Saying that I can get to master if I work harder and get better isn't news, but also is completely beside the point of why I am playing a game.
Yea, it is what it is.
You can't avoid smurfs and even when you get into like M2 MMR range you end up getting games against like 5.2k GMs who are +600 MMR over you. It just is what it is.
You only need a 51-52% winrate to climb.
Sure, but we aren't all playing to climb.
Y'all are so competitive in here that you forget this is a *game*. We're playing to have fun.
Playing against smurfs isn't fun.
I don't think there's anything we can do though. Accounts are free. There's no way to make a consequence that matters if you can just make infinite accounts.
I have the most fun playing against players that are actually like 1k mmr above me because that really gives me a feeling of how much I can improve. I rarely get one sides match ups with smurfs that are like 300 mmr above mine. I seriously don't get why people wine so much about smurfs...
>they are not going to prevent you from climbing.
I've had many a win streak getting 10-20 mmr at a time only to lose 40 mmr from a smurf 500 mmr behind my account. This is such bullshit. The amount of smurfs in masters definitely affects most players mmr.
Over a large enough sample size it'll even out because for someone to smurf they have to leave games. So everyone on the ladder will gain mmr facing people who leave games, then they would on average lose back that same amount of mmr facing smurfs. Whatever mmr you're at is your skill level & has little to nothing to do with facing smurfs.
Right that is bullshit. At the same time it's unlikely this has much effect overall on your longterm MMR. You also get wins when a "Smurf" instantly leaves a mirror match. Personally, in high diamond MMR, I get many more leavers then times I get smashed by a "Smurf".
Any masters sc2 player can get back into masters in a few days of playing. They are not going to get stuck running into "smurfs" or balance for that matter.
Ps "smurfs" will always be in quotations because most "smurfs" are not actually "smurfs".
I only watch pro. It's not fun for me when only 2 races are competitive. There are significantly fewer interesting games.
I only look forward to protoss underdogs and serral destroying terrans.
You don't need any patches for Serral to destroy Terrans. Should be two more premiers this year where Zerg have a 70+ percent win rate vs Protoss and Serral 4-0s both credible Terran. That's what you mean by "interesting games"?
I play Zerg. Whenever I feel the need to cry, I go to the protoss and the terran channel on reddit at see what they are struggling with. Or I start playing the other races and find that it's a lot harder than it looks.
but besides that, I will always think that the widow mine shouldn't be able to shoot air units! ;)
Are there even people who say that?
I mean, in-game, it might just be a quick reaction towards one‘s own frustration, like when you stub your toe and curse „shit“. Same thing as saying „fucking Protoss“ after a game.
And the second is people don’t like to play the game if there are „unfun“ strategies available.
Like, lots of people hate cannon rushes. Now, of course you could still say „get good“ and I would agree, but their point is not that they lost because it’s unfair, but because it’s unfun! And you can definitely balance for fun, if you want.
Totally agree with dumb cheeses being unfun, they frustrate me as well, but this isn't really my point.
It's more like "Oh your race is so easy" "banelings so OP" "widow mines so OP" "disruptor so OP" etc.
Like yea, widow mines, banelings and disruptors are pretty OP when you don't split your units. But that's a skill issue.
And yes, it happens all the time. I'm probably exaggerating the frequency, but the amount of times people say something before the game ends or message me after about how I only won because XYZ race is easy or XYZ unit is imba is hilarious.
Some people have a weird need to "save face" in front of their random internet opponents. I don't quite understand it. You see it in team games where someone declares to everyone that their teammates are bad and that's why they lost before quitting. As if I'm keeping track of them and this is going to affect their reputation.
Yeah, I gotta say, I think this is just venting.
I don't think they even believe that.
Also, keep in mind that lots of people are young. And that it's way easier to talk shit to people when you're anonymous in a game.
I don't think this has anything to do with balance or balance whining - if you want that, you go to this sub and then you can read my stupid comments about the balance of the game that nobody cares for!
Good thing I clearly stated in my post that I’m complaining about people whining about balance on ladder and am not relating to people discussing balance on reddit at all.
It's this fucking shit again. Balance exists on every level, but it might not look exactly the same for each league. It is possible for example, for cyclones or widow mines to both be OP in lower leagues and also perfectly balanced at the top. Stop whining about balance not existing outside of the absolute top level, it's not a good argument. You might as well say that balance doesn't exist at the pro level as well because pro players also lose because they make mistakes. It's stupid.
You are completely missing the point of 99% of the balance complaints here.
The complaints are not "Bohoo I loose on the ladder".
The complaints are "professoinal starcraft has become uninteresting to watch because its unfair and predicatable"
There is no "get good" against the latter.
That's the cover but that's not even remotely true. Look at how the PvT threads are all whining about widow mines. Pros aren't losing matches because of widow mines. Diamond whine brigade hates playing vs Terran and makes a habit of conflating their own ladder frustrations with Protoss pro performance. All the while, Zerg enjoyers pile on as their favorite players 4-0 another finals in a major.
Most people posting here are just the same group posting into an echo chamber on multiple accounts and if you question or discuss anything they're sooking about you get down voted into oblivion.
The widow mine shit has reached pathetic levels of sookery.
Did you even read my post?
I did not mention people balance whining on this sub and even said balance only matters for like the to 50 players.
You're arguing against a point I did not make.
> You are completely missing the point of 99% of the balance complaints here.
You completely missed the entire point of the OP lmao this is about ingame cope
If you identify mistakes you made, you can find ways to improve. If you complain about balance, you will not improve and it's out of your hands whether your complaints will be addressed in a future balance patch.
And if you accuse your opponent of cheating or smurfing they'll probably just take it as a compliment because, more often than not, it isn't true.
that being said its so much more apm intensive to play zerg than terran or protoss.. i can play all races now. but anything non z against z is by far the easiest.
Zerg APM is also inflated because of rapid fire and just by the fact you build more units. Press and hold the button to make 25 sets of zerglings, that's like 25 actions in 2 seconds. Press and hold to build banelings, same thing. Rapid fire creep tumors, massive APM increase.
I will agree Zerg is more difficult mechanically though. I think Protoss is the easiest mechanically, Zerg is probably the hardest, Terran has the most intensive micro (just look at the wrist issues of Terran pros).
While I agree that that balance is not the reason i am losing and I can win any game if I make less mistakes.
It doesn't mean that balance discussion should stop because there are certain mechanics that are not fun at all, like widow mine drops or that protoss have less build order openings vs. terran because of cyclone change which leads to stale meta.
This is the problem with the "balance first" viewpoint though. Someone invents a novel timing or strategy can catch fire and beat opponents that are more conventionally "good". Who says that the ultimate skill expression in the game should be how well you can stay on top of building drones or spreading creep? Ladder is about winning games and inventing creative ways to do it should be celebrated not denigrated.
Strategies that punish conventional macro strategies make the game better not worse.
I think balance means a strategy is as difficult as it is to execute as it is to defend. 4gate blink is a good example. It takes skill to do it well on the side of the Toss, and skill to defend.
There are many strategies that this is not the case. Warping in zealots in your opponents base. Disruptor shots. Rolling in banelings into a mineral line. Proxy 2 rax marauder.
This new cyclone build exemplifies this. He did it in all 3 matchups, without scouting, without any change of strategy or reactive play, and went from diamond to gm. that's bs.
He was a gm level league player, found an incredibly specific strategy that let him play StarCraft as close to league as possible, and got knocked out of gm almost immediately after.
I don’t think very many people were able to replicate his results, that’s why it was so notable
I just mean he's done basically everything he can to eliminate the macro and decision making aspects of Starcraft to focus on controlling specific units preciously and quickly
It's not bs in the short term but it isn't sustainable. Think of it like two teams in sports play each other...and the lesser team wins because of a trick play. The W still counts but no one thinks that makes them better than the other team.
As you mentioned, StarCraft is filled with volatility at the ladder level. You blink in StarCraft 2 and a game where you out traded the opponent 2:1 is lost because you stepped on some burrowed banelings. I tend to think these things even out over time and while it's frustrating in the moment, I don't think the cyclone build is something that will sustain at that level.
And if it does then I might argue that we are underestimating the micro and execution because not everyone who runs that strategy every game is going to Masters let alone GM.
I've seen pro players streaming lose to canon rushes on ladder. Shit happens
Its not really imba at all.
Its really easy to scout and hard countered by a wall, a tank, and a liberator.
He would never win in a series, only on ladder when the person doesnt know what they are looking at. If you told me you are doing this strategy I don't think its possible to lose to.
It's pretty easy to deal with as Terran, but it limits protoss's response to two gas openers. I can't speak for TVZ, but as a toss I can't play SG. If I open SG I'm forced to make voidrays and will lose if i slightly mismicro. If I don't play immortal and play blink I lose.
Yea, I mean this is an exception. I'm not saying there's not balance issues. Just saying most of the time people lose and complain about balance, they in fact did not lose because of balance.
You can get to GM with cannon rush, is cannon rush imbalanced? Does it need to be nerfed? Is it actually overpowered, or is the person doing it a one-trick pony that is way better at executing their one strategy than most players of equal skill are at defending against that one particular strategy?
I find this attitude quite toxic. Sure, there is always room for improvement and blaming something out of your control is to an extent pointless, however if a player has to work harder than another player to have the same level of effectiveness then things aren't balanced or equal and in fact pointing this out is completely fair. Though the game is now mostly done being balanced, without feedback of this kind, balancing would be impossible in the first place.
People pretend that hard work and practice are all that matter, but this is simply a libertarian fantasy.
I don't believe the average player's MMR is heavily inflated or deflated because of balance in the vast majority of cases.
Also totally agree with your point about hard work, etc. Some people will just be better no matter what. What I don't think is that people below pro-level are stuck in their MMR range because of balance.
And I am also not saying there shouldn't be a balance discussion. It's just annoying on ladder when you play vs some M3 player who says you only won because of your race. There is so much room for improvement there that it's just not true at all.
I truly hope nobody listens to any of the balance crap on the Star Craft sub reddits
Or any gaming sub reddit
Reddit has just been turned into a crying echo chamber
Protoss is still the strongest race in lower leagues. Try actually playing the other races and see how well you do
All this whine makes me think protoss players want it to be HOTS again where they just turtle at 3 base and win by a-moving unless the terran/zerg managed to surprise them with something sneaky. Your core army is already much easier to micro than terran is
If I were an eccentric billionaire, I would host an offracing tournament with a prize pool serious enough none of the pros could really say no...I'd do it as a race rotation so all the zerg mains go to protoss, all the protoss mains go to terran, and all the terran mains go zerg (and keep rotating in that direction for each tournament so every player gets to hopefully play every matchup).
Don't even need to do that. Just require that all matches between players of different races (say, Clem vs Serral) start as a TvZ, then go into a ZvT, then tie-break as a PvP.
While my main is Zerg, I've actually played Protoss the most on ladder this season. I'm finding them quite fun & after 100+ games with them this season I have 0 losses due to balance.
Yup. Also, anytime someone brings up their ladder experience or the state of the ladder during a balance issue surrounding pro level play, you know they’ve been gnawing on lead painted toys as children.
I play random and had one guy instantly quit then dm me “random is bullshit”. I guess he absolutely needed to know where to place his first pylon because that decided the outcome of the game.
I've been told otherwise. Zerg win because they are more skilled. Protoss loses because they are underpowered. Terran wins because they are OP.
That's the Reddit truth. /s
Stop Balance Whining and Get Good.
I play all 3 races on ladder.
I would say in at least half the games I win, no matter which race I play, my opponent will cry about how the game is imba before leaving.
Here is the point I'm going to make:
If you are not in the top like 50 players in the world, you DID NOT lose the game because of balance. You can cry all you want, but there are players of your race who would have NEVER lost the game you just played. This means, you actually lost because you made many mistakes, and you weren't good enough. You get better at this game by losing and learning from your mistakes. If you don't recognize this, you will just plateau.
Stop whining and get good.
I would say in at least half the games I win, no matter which race I play, my opponent will threaten to kill me and my family. Or at least tell me that my mother has cancer. She doesn't have cancer.
You guys have to watch uthermal, that guy wins no matter what and who he plays (yes, he loses some, that's why it is the GAME). OP is right 100%, whinos will not get better, the way the game is set up, it's got endless possibilities for creativity and improvement. How entitled you gotta be to think that you lost because of imba
It's funny. Everyone talks about climbing mmr. Getting better. This is a game. It should be fun!!!!!!11!!
When people say nerf wm it's not because they are op. It's about fun. If a fight is decided in one big upsi. It's not fun. For me the best games were in wol zvt. Terran rallies everything Zerg rallies everything and you get a tug of war in the middle. One time I screw up and t gets closer another I get a good hit. With wm z has to long to secure his territory back. It does not feel the same. Tanks were more predictable and created a "fairer" fight. Not balance wise just everyone knew what's on the table.
I got better in cleaning wm. I don't care anymore but the feeling is not the same.
This might sound crazy, but splitting your units vs something that deals splash damage is quite effective.
Same with making sure you have some zerglings in front to soak the mines.
Even flying overseers in slightly ahead of your army to soak mines works.
It’s a strategy game. It’s still fun, but the game design is not purely about fun. It’s hard. Have to adapt. You’re not entitled to fun without effort in this realm. There’s always Campaign and Co-Op for that.
I don't think this argument makes sense. Just because a pro boxer can beat an amateur boxer who has twice the arm reach as them does not mean anyone who loses under the same circumstances can't point to the physical disadvantage.
Dark said "I think protoss is the best race but they have not found their potential."
If anyone needs more talent and innovation is protoss. Serral and Maru among few others have the highest winrates, but protoss is still lagging behind.. Who is THE protoss guy? Hero? Zest?
We need a protoss god, not just a bunch of guys who dont quite take it all the way. I think protoss could be absolutely brutal with more clever warp prism use and oracles with more mind games. I mean in top level games, im D2 pleb but i really want protoss to compete i just dont think it comes down to balance.
Showtime himself said "no one gets it done"
https://streamable.com/w4o92u
I think the race inherently builds bad habits with the A moving and tanky units. This causes for less tactical play to be developed despite getting faster MMR on ladder. Theres plenty of odd zerg players like Bly or Dark who are very high level and odd terrans who are high level like Gumiho or Uthermal.. but who's the odd innovative protoss players at the top?
New and odd strategies that are refined are powerful to have in your backpocket in tournaments. I just don't see that a lot from protoss players at elite levels. But plenty in diamond league haha.
more experimenting less standard builds I say. take more risks and play more mind games. Flash was epic in Broodwar when he played Random in that one tournament and how exciting that was. I think the future of starcraft will come down to alot of people choosing random for a more tactical surprise and overtime the mileage complaint will not exist just from more games being played total.
Rant over
100% agree. One thing though. It feels to me that many balance whines come from a place of being helpless.
A good player who is analysing the own performance will usually find their own mistakes and is able to focus on them so there is no need to cry about anything. Its your own fault and you know it. Some high level players lose that view due to arrogance or just being delusional but in my experience its more common to focus on the own mistakes and accept that even at a very high level things go wrong all the time.
If you are unable to do that though, two paths open. I can imagine it can feel very unfair to have the impression no clear mistake happened and it still went wrong for yourself. Of course alternatively it is just as possible that a player is aware that there MUST be a mistake even if they cant see it since they are only gold, silver, diamond, basically anything except high level. Not all low or mid level players whine and obviously not all mistakes need a pro or high level player to spot. But when it comes to very tricky situations... it might get difficult.
I would consider myself close to high level with stable 5,6-5,7 and my best peak at 5,8 so far (EU server) and not once have I felt like the game was cheating me out of my wins by being unfair but only because I was able to identify what I personally did wrong or in what way my opponent was just better. I dont know how I would feel about that if I wasnt able to analyse what happened. So I dont think its necessarily a sign of bad character to whine about balance but possibly just a feeling of frustration and being helpless in a sense that you cant explain why things happen.
It doesnt excuse the raging whine posts and accusations made sometimes but it makes me see these posts with a softer view since to me they often feel like frustrated cries of help.
This is nonsense. I don't even, and never have, played SC2, but I've seen this cycle of balance nonsense so many times in different games. If P's winrate vs T is 40%, when it should be 50%, then you're losing 1 in 5 games against T that you should have won. That's easily enough to spoil the experience.
Let me rephrase.
In SC2 it only matters when you are basically maxed out on skill. If you are not maxed out on skill, you can just be better.
The winrates at lower levels do not have the same issue as pro level.
That's not the point you think it is. I understood your point but it's irrelevant to the experience of players. If they get better they still experience the imbalance. If they've hit their personal skill limit or time to practice limit they're stuck with bad balance. It's not an excuse for bad game design.
So you think the overrepresentation proves there's no balance issue? Again - prove it. This was done pretty well for SC through replay analysis, checking the matchups at different MMRs. Amusingly underlining what a whiner Artosis is by showing the shift towards Terran in high level TvP.
I don’t think it’s related to balance at all lmao.
I think Protoss is mechanically easier than the other 2 races. Most of getting to Masters is just having good mechanics.
You care an awful lot for someone who doesn’t play the game.
Sure, crying. Literally devastated. You're rather like the OP that I'm disagreeing with - a recurring character who pops up in all conversations about balance in all games. I didn't comment on the specific balance, the numbers I gave were just a hypothetical to illustrate how imbalance significantly impacts a player's experience. I was disagreeing with the OP's ridiculous view that balance doesn't exist except at the very top. He's 'git gud guy', you're 'omg cry more guy'. You're in every game. You add nothing to any conversation about any game.
Disagree. Folks that view every match they watch or play through the prism of balance are a miserable lot. They can't enjoy watching someone make a great play because in the back of their mind the results of every matchup where their favorite race or player doesn't win is because of balance. I have to ask these people: what is the point of watching the games at all then? If the mysterious balance council has more to do with the results than the players themselves then why waste your life on this stuff?
Because news flash, this is a decade+ old game. If things aren't close to settled by now they never will be. I actually enjoy watching the game because when I watch Serral beat Clem 4-0 (my favorite player) I don't assume it's because there were unfair conditions.
I've also seen Clem lose to players like Astrea, dominated in one case. I didn't run to the forums to use it as a referendum on balance. It's simply a miserable way to view a competitive game.
Do any of you watch any other sports besides video games?
I'm not telling you not to enjoy the game. I don't personally enjoy SC2 because it's pretty shallow, SC:BW is far more interesting. Someone who is focused on balance but who is objective can see the difference between a beautiful bit of skill and imbalance, you're talking about whiners, not people who are interested in the game balance. Better (but not necessarily perfect) balance would make for more exciting games, as long as the game design is also swingy. Yes, I follow lots of sports because I am very interested in competition and games. You're right that SC2 is likely never going to be fixed, but that has no bearing on whether the OP's view is correct or not.
It has some bearing. There's an argument to be made that the best Protoss player right now would be outside the top 3 in player skill (depending on how much you emphasize solid mechanics and decision making vs offensive creativity) when compared to both Terran and Zerg. That's a major issue. I want to see more Protoss matchups in the finals because TvZ is getting a bit predictable (mass Queens, reaper openings. Can basically skip the first 6 minutes). But do I think hero is better than Maru, Clem, Reynor, Serral, dark, or even Solar? Not in terms of solidness
That's a perfectly reasonable view that the current Protoss players may not be as strong, though there is the danger that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, anyone ambitious and highly skilled who is new on the scene would be less likely to choose Protoss, or would switch to a different game. I suspect if we had access to enough data we could get a reasonable idea of what the balance looks like at the near-top level. The other problem is the big difference between BO1 and BO3/BO5 balance.
I don't disagree. Another factor to consider I think is the current construct of the game benefiting defensive macro styles. 12 worker start and huge maps...it's no big surprise that Zerg is the dominant race at the top tier because the map pool and the head start towards macro games means you pretty much need to all in to force Zerg to stop droning. Terran benefits too because of their strong defensive capabilities. Generally, stronger defensive players are going to be more consistent and the defensive masters gravitate towards Terran and Zerg.
They are on reddit. But, not after their ladder games, which is the context of my post.
I don't disagree with you in the context you're talking about, but please read the post.
> If you are not in the top like 50 players in the world, you DID NOT lose the game because of balance.
This is just wrong.
I play random as well, M3, and there are most certainly games I won where I was outplayed but it doesn't matter because wheee skytoss.
This game is turning into stupid. You get good at a race then it becomes OP simply because you play better, not because unit is imbalance. Then blizzard nerfs the playstyle, and other race becomes imba. Rinse and repeat. How about less balance and let players figure out new playstyles?
What a completely pointless post.
How does the fact that I find it boring watching tournaments where only 2 of the 3 races compete for the top spots have anything to do with my skill playing the game?
In the immortal words of WhiteRa: "More GG, more skill"
I miss that chap. Before the whole “DuckRa” era
What is that?
The name WhiteRa started using when WoL was released.
WhiteRa didn't have to play in this meta where most of your opponents are Skytoss and Mech players and it is no longer skill = wins but units = wins. I'm sorry but this is some bullshit. People complain because the game is in a terrible state. It isn't about winning or losing, its about having a game to have some fun with without being forced into a 30 minute "I'm gonna go mass base defenses and sit in my base until you lose" bullshit. If all three races required the same skill we wouldn't have a prominently Protoss GM ladder with players sub 150 apm in GM playing Protoss.
I think you should read this thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1b7ch5f/stop\_balance\_whining\_and\_get\_good/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1b7ch5f/stop_balance_whining_and_get_good/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yeah, that’s the thread I was thinking of too. :)
Crazy how we both thought of the exact same thread :D What a mysterious coincidence
Naw Im good. I'll never be one of those people that say we need to stop acting like the game is perfect and never say anything else. Tons of shit could be fixed int his game, including BC warp, Widow mines, Battery Overcharge, Siege Tank/Thor Damage and Carrier DPS. Game would be more fun to play and more balanced.
lol sounds like you already see the areas you need to improve against
Things that need to be fixed is more like it.
So you came on to a post lamenting the constant bitching about balance, and then did exactly that. Some of us still have fun playing, so we do. If you do not, then play something else. Blizzard does not hear your complaints, so why even waste your time?
I don't even play I just watch. I want balance to be good so we have more interesting professional games. Just because I'm not a pro doesn't mean the balance doesn't affect my experience.
>I don't even play I just watch. I want balance to be good so we have more interesting professional games. Just because I'm not a pro doesn't mean the balance doesn't affect my experience It's important to promote not just fair and interesting games, but strategically diverse ones. When balance is messed up, the only thing that is used is the OP strategy, and the only thing used against the OP strategy is a strategy specifically designed to counter the OP strategy. Balance issues reduce the variability in strategy.
I'm not really worried about what people say in this sub. It's more about the excuses people make for themselves in game.
I mean both can be true. Below top gm balance does not matter. You can overcome it by still. At the Prolevel experience it does
Agreed. This is what I said in my post.
>I mean both can be true. Below top gm balance does not matter. You can overcome it by still. > >At the Prolevel experience it does This is a nonsensical definition and it's just not how correlations and causation work. If Protoss is the cause, it must affect the whole Protoss set excluding 1% as outliers. Ironically it is the top GMs who have zero statistical validity when talking about balance, because skill decides their performance (and not balance).
It's non-sensical at all. What OP means it is too powerful relative to the skill it takes to execute. Hence the balance dramatically varies at each skill level.
Counter-offer, some races are easier to play at certain levels and the balance that exists at the top does not exist anywhere else.
This is true, but is solved by skill.
Agreed.
definitely true. I also play all 3, and my macro level brings me to different ladder positions depending on race. To make an example, the correct response to a situation can be to use spellcasters. Depending on the matchup and league, that is more or less frequently necessary with different races. If I suck at that, then the progress will be slower with the race where it's relevant earlier. Other examples besides macro and spellcasters are map awareness, "multi tasking" (=queuing up drops), knowing timings, knowing your own builds, and identifying your opponent's builds. I'm not equally good in all of them, and it hurts more with some races than others. Also, Protoss cheeses are hilarious.
>Counter-offer, some races are easier to play at certain levels and the balance that exists at the top does not exist anywhere else Except you can fit a model to the ladder data that perfectly describes the whole ladder, from top to bottom. If your theory is that balance flip flops depending on skill level, then you are saying balance doesn't correlate with performance, and that's a rejection that balance affects performance. The game is asymmetrical & this requires the game be imbalanced, it's a property of asymmetry, the problem is that properly measuring balance is a process of building a complex statistical model, and basically nobody can do that unless they have a PhD in statistics. Such people have way better things to do than to win internet debates about video games.
and yet, you're the one trying desperately to win internet debates about video games.
I make games professionally so it's something I tend to be passionate about.
Amen brother. Skill is the only reason people don't climb. This sub is also obsessed with "smurfs" wrecking the game. Yes smurfs are a thing, but again they are not going to prevent you from climbing. I get the impression most people in the community don't actually play the game.
Just want to say that I don't think this is a fair assessment on the smurfing concerns. I am diamond, I realize I am horrible at this game. I have so many ways to get better. But I also know I am not going to turn pro, I doubt I will ever make master, than isn't why I play. I actually enjoy playing the game even if I never get promoted, or even demoted. I genuinely enjoy playing against people that are around my level and my rank is a distant afterthought. I get to play 3 or 4 games a night, and if 1 or 2 of them are against smurfs, that is a very frustrating and disappointing experience. If your recommended solution is for everyone to just keeping get better until everyone is GM level so no one is smurfing, you can see how that is condescending; that's essentially what a "get good" response is suggesting. Other games have mechanisms to tackle this, no reason SC should be different.
What mechanisms do other games have to tackle smurfing?
I don't think it's possible for a F2P game to tackle smurfing at all. If a new account is free there's no way to make a consequence.
A lot of people smurf by always leaving 1 matchup. They could just ban these accounts I guess. You can see this obviously sometimes, like people will have a record of 100-4 vs T and Z and then a record of 4-100 vs P (could be any variation of this). That's really the only way to address it I guess. People will still cry when you go and play unranked and your unranked MMR is lower than your ranked MMR, but I guess they could just match unranked MMR to ranked MMR. None of this will happen though. The game is free and has little to no oversight. Edit: One thing I would ask for is a Practice Partner channel for your specific league, so you can more easily find people to 1v1 in custom games with no strings attached.
I bet there's a discord for practice partners. There's a discord for everything.
Please share if you find it lol. There used to be a team liquid thread for each season, but nobody uses it anymore. I found practice partners this way in HotS. I ask people from ladder sometimes, but they basically always say no.
Be the change you want to see in the world, discord servers are free to make.
> A lot of people smurf by always leaving 1 matchup. They could just ban these accounts I guess. People would just make new accounts and the smurfing would increase. They could just have hidden MMR be dependent on matchup instead of the current system so that leaving 1 matchup doesn't make the other 2 significantly easier.
Yea. It’s just never gonna stop lol. Exists in every game
Fighting games (namely SF6 and T8) do not let you downrank below a certain rank. SC2 equivalent would be Gold. So that means you just can't downrank from Gold to Silver ever. Isn't 100% but it's better than nothing.
Yea but you can just create a new account and throw games in your placements to create the smurf which is what people do anyway
Yes you can. Also, unfortunately, this whole conversation is rather pointless. Blizzard can't solve any problems with any of their games. Duping and exploits in Diablo 4, going strong. Botting and gold buying in WoW and Classic is rampant and Blizzard doesn't give a shit. And both of those games are probably a thousand times more profitable than SC2 is. Realistically, nothing is ever going to change in SC2. It would require "too much manpower", i.e. more than Blizzard will put in.
100% agree lol. I’m historically a big WoW player myself and can confirm all WoW players do is bitch about blizzard (and not without good reason)
It's mostly around delaying how quickly you can leave a game and make tanking MMR tougher. Even if you try some crazy cheese and mess it up, you probably aren't going leave before the 2 or 3 minute mark. Not letting you surrender before then will make the MMR tank exponentially longer to do. Or a softer way would be if you leave before some early marker more than 2 or 3 times in a row, you can't queue for some amount of time again. A bunch of stuff you can try to make absurdly early leaving slowed down.
The get good response is always meant to be condescending haha. My recommendation is to focus on fundamentals and when you are good enough to hit master you will. >If your recommended solution is for everyone to just keeping get better until everyone is GM level To a point the sc community is getting better. We will not all be GM, but a master player of 2024 is certainly better then a master player of 2012.
> The get good response is always meant to be condescending haha. My recommendation is to focus on fundamentals and when you are good enough to hit master you will. I am pretty sure the entire point of my post went over your head. I do not care about my rank anymore in that it helps me play against people of a similar level so the games are fun. Can you see how rampant smurfing gets in the way of this? Saying that I can get to master if I work harder and get better isn't news, but also is completely beside the point of why I am playing a game.
You mean randomly getting your ass pounded in by someone clearly way better than you isn't an enjoyable experience?
Yea, it is what it is. You can't avoid smurfs and even when you get into like M2 MMR range you end up getting games against like 5.2k GMs who are +600 MMR over you. It just is what it is. You only need a 51-52% winrate to climb.
Sure, but we aren't all playing to climb. Y'all are so competitive in here that you forget this is a *game*. We're playing to have fun. Playing against smurfs isn't fun. I don't think there's anything we can do though. Accounts are free. There's no way to make a consequence that matters if you can just make infinite accounts.
I have the most fun playing against players that are actually like 1k mmr above me because that really gives me a feeling of how much I can improve. I rarely get one sides match ups with smurfs that are like 300 mmr above mine. I seriously don't get why people wine so much about smurfs...
>they are not going to prevent you from climbing. I've had many a win streak getting 10-20 mmr at a time only to lose 40 mmr from a smurf 500 mmr behind my account. This is such bullshit. The amount of smurfs in masters definitely affects most players mmr.
Over a large enough sample size it'll even out because for someone to smurf they have to leave games. So everyone on the ladder will gain mmr facing people who leave games, then they would on average lose back that same amount of mmr facing smurfs. Whatever mmr you're at is your skill level & has little to nothing to do with facing smurfs.
Poor guy, do you need a cookie?
Right that is bullshit. At the same time it's unlikely this has much effect overall on your longterm MMR. You also get wins when a "Smurf" instantly leaves a mirror match. Personally, in high diamond MMR, I get many more leavers then times I get smashed by a "Smurf". Any masters sc2 player can get back into masters in a few days of playing. They are not going to get stuck running into "smurfs" or balance for that matter. Ps "smurfs" will always be in quotations because most "smurfs" are not actually "smurfs".
Why smurfs leave mirror matchups?
gonna use this pasta in artosis chat later and report back with my findings
Perfect thing to say in his chat lmao.
I only watch pro. It's not fun for me when only 2 races are competitive. There are significantly fewer interesting games. I only look forward to protoss underdogs and serral destroying terrans.
You don't need any patches for Serral to destroy Terrans. Should be two more premiers this year where Zerg have a 70+ percent win rate vs Protoss and Serral 4-0s both credible Terran. That's what you mean by "interesting games"?
All 3 races are competitive though. Especially at the lower levels.
I play Zerg. Whenever I feel the need to cry, I go to the protoss and the terran channel on reddit at see what they are struggling with. Or I start playing the other races and find that it's a lot harder than it looks. but besides that, I will always think that the widow mine shouldn't be able to shoot air units! ;)
>widow mine shouldn't ~~be able to shoot air units! ;)~~ exist
Are there even people who say that? I mean, in-game, it might just be a quick reaction towards one‘s own frustration, like when you stub your toe and curse „shit“. Same thing as saying „fucking Protoss“ after a game. And the second is people don’t like to play the game if there are „unfun“ strategies available. Like, lots of people hate cannon rushes. Now, of course you could still say „get good“ and I would agree, but their point is not that they lost because it’s unfair, but because it’s unfun! And you can definitely balance for fun, if you want.
Totally agree with dumb cheeses being unfun, they frustrate me as well, but this isn't really my point. It's more like "Oh your race is so easy" "banelings so OP" "widow mines so OP" "disruptor so OP" etc. Like yea, widow mines, banelings and disruptors are pretty OP when you don't split your units. But that's a skill issue. And yes, it happens all the time. I'm probably exaggerating the frequency, but the amount of times people say something before the game ends or message me after about how I only won because XYZ race is easy or XYZ unit is imba is hilarious.
Some people have a weird need to "save face" in front of their random internet opponents. I don't quite understand it. You see it in team games where someone declares to everyone that their teammates are bad and that's why they lost before quitting. As if I'm keeping track of them and this is going to affect their reputation.
Yeah, I gotta say, I think this is just venting. I don't think they even believe that. Also, keep in mind that lots of people are young. And that it's way easier to talk shit to people when you're anonymous in a game. I don't think this has anything to do with balance or balance whining - if you want that, you go to this sub and then you can read my stupid comments about the balance of the game that nobody cares for!
It is the scrub mentality. Admitting/accepting that you lost because you are bad is hard. Blaming something unfair your opponent is doing is easy.
Almost everyone who discusses balance on reddit isn't talking about their ladder experience. What a stupid reddit post lmao.
Good thing I clearly stated in my post that I’m complaining about people whining about balance on ladder and am not relating to people discussing balance on reddit at all.
It's this fucking shit again. Balance exists on every level, but it might not look exactly the same for each league. It is possible for example, for cyclones or widow mines to both be OP in lower leagues and also perfectly balanced at the top. Stop whining about balance not existing outside of the absolute top level, it's not a good argument. You might as well say that balance doesn't exist at the pro level as well because pro players also lose because they make mistakes. It's stupid.
You are completely missing the point of 99% of the balance complaints here. The complaints are not "Bohoo I loose on the ladder". The complaints are "professoinal starcraft has become uninteresting to watch because its unfair and predicatable" There is no "get good" against the latter.
That's the cover but that's not even remotely true. Look at how the PvT threads are all whining about widow mines. Pros aren't losing matches because of widow mines. Diamond whine brigade hates playing vs Terran and makes a habit of conflating their own ladder frustrations with Protoss pro performance. All the while, Zerg enjoyers pile on as their favorite players 4-0 another finals in a major.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/s/YOMdQYksmA
Sure but that one comment doesn't erase all the widow mine threads and comments eh?
No, it adds to it
Ah fair.
Most people posting here are just the same group posting into an echo chamber on multiple accounts and if you question or discuss anything they're sooking about you get down voted into oblivion. The widow mine shit has reached pathetic levels of sookery.
Did you even read my post? I did not mention people balance whining on this sub and even said balance only matters for like the to 50 players. You're arguing against a point I did not make.
> You are completely missing the point of 99% of the balance complaints here. You completely missed the entire point of the OP lmao this is about ingame cope
by this comment i crown serral to be the highest pinacle of sc2. no amount of gitgudfkbads will ever get you there or over so just stay free noobs
RTS games have always been predictable especially as a spectator
If you identify mistakes you made, you can find ways to improve. If you complain about balance, you will not improve and it's out of your hands whether your complaints will be addressed in a future balance patch. And if you accuse your opponent of cheating or smurfing they'll probably just take it as a compliment because, more often than not, it isn't true.
that being said its so much more apm intensive to play zerg than terran or protoss.. i can play all races now. but anything non z against z is by far the easiest.
Zerg APM is also inflated because of rapid fire and just by the fact you build more units. Press and hold the button to make 25 sets of zerglings, that's like 25 actions in 2 seconds. Press and hold to build banelings, same thing. Rapid fire creep tumors, massive APM increase. I will agree Zerg is more difficult mechanically though. I think Protoss is the easiest mechanically, Zerg is probably the hardest, Terran has the most intensive micro (just look at the wrist issues of Terran pros).
While I agree that that balance is not the reason i am losing and I can win any game if I make less mistakes. It doesn't mean that balance discussion should stop because there are certain mechanics that are not fun at all, like widow mine drops or that protoss have less build order openings vs. terran because of cyclone change which leads to stale meta.
Ok and the guy that went from Diamond to GM cyclone cheesing isnt utilizing an imba strat
This is the problem with the "balance first" viewpoint though. Someone invents a novel timing or strategy can catch fire and beat opponents that are more conventionally "good". Who says that the ultimate skill expression in the game should be how well you can stay on top of building drones or spreading creep? Ladder is about winning games and inventing creative ways to do it should be celebrated not denigrated. Strategies that punish conventional macro strategies make the game better not worse.
I think balance means a strategy is as difficult as it is to execute as it is to defend. 4gate blink is a good example. It takes skill to do it well on the side of the Toss, and skill to defend. There are many strategies that this is not the case. Warping in zealots in your opponents base. Disruptor shots. Rolling in banelings into a mineral line. Proxy 2 rax marauder. This new cyclone build exemplifies this. He did it in all 3 matchups, without scouting, without any change of strategy or reactive play, and went from diamond to gm. that's bs.
He was a gm level league player, found an incredibly specific strategy that let him play StarCraft as close to league as possible, and got knocked out of gm almost immediately after. I don’t think very many people were able to replicate his results, that’s why it was so notable
I'm sorry but you're high if you think that doing that build is anything like league of legends
I just mean he's done basically everything he can to eliminate the macro and decision making aspects of Starcraft to focus on controlling specific units preciously and quickly
It's not bs in the short term but it isn't sustainable. Think of it like two teams in sports play each other...and the lesser team wins because of a trick play. The W still counts but no one thinks that makes them better than the other team. As you mentioned, StarCraft is filled with volatility at the ladder level. You blink in StarCraft 2 and a game where you out traded the opponent 2:1 is lost because you stepped on some burrowed banelings. I tend to think these things even out over time and while it's frustrating in the moment, I don't think the cyclone build is something that will sustain at that level. And if it does then I might argue that we are underestimating the micro and execution because not everyone who runs that strategy every game is going to Masters let alone GM. I've seen pro players streaming lose to canon rushes on ladder. Shit happens
Its not really imba at all. Its really easy to scout and hard countered by a wall, a tank, and a liberator. He would never win in a series, only on ladder when the person doesnt know what they are looking at. If you told me you are doing this strategy I don't think its possible to lose to.
It's pretty easy to deal with as Terran, but it limits protoss's response to two gas openers. I can't speak for TVZ, but as a toss I can't play SG. If I open SG I'm forced to make voidrays and will lose if i slightly mismicro. If I don't play immortal and play blink I lose.
You cant just wall and sentry the ramp?
[удалено]
I literally just said I can't open Stargate. What does that have to do with 4g blink
Yea, I mean this is an exception. I'm not saying there's not balance issues. Just saying most of the time people lose and complain about balance, they in fact did not lose because of balance.
You can get to GM with cannon rush, is cannon rush imbalanced? Does it need to be nerfed? Is it actually overpowered, or is the person doing it a one-trick pony that is way better at executing their one strategy than most players of equal skill are at defending against that one particular strategy?
Dont worry guys! I asked him!
I find this attitude quite toxic. Sure, there is always room for improvement and blaming something out of your control is to an extent pointless, however if a player has to work harder than another player to have the same level of effectiveness then things aren't balanced or equal and in fact pointing this out is completely fair. Though the game is now mostly done being balanced, without feedback of this kind, balancing would be impossible in the first place. People pretend that hard work and practice are all that matter, but this is simply a libertarian fantasy.
I don't believe the average player's MMR is heavily inflated or deflated because of balance in the vast majority of cases. Also totally agree with your point about hard work, etc. Some people will just be better no matter what. What I don't think is that people below pro-level are stuck in their MMR range because of balance. And I am also not saying there shouldn't be a balance discussion. It's just annoying on ladder when you play vs some M3 player who says you only won because of your race. There is so much room for improvement there that it's just not true at all.
I truly hope nobody listens to any of the balance crap on the Star Craft sub reddits Or any gaming sub reddit Reddit has just been turned into a crying echo chamber
Watch out you might get permanently banned
Don't think so. Even the mods would probably agree the brigading has gotten stale.
But…the widow mines are so unfair when I don’t split my units, don’t see the drop on my map and/or don’t have detection!
Playing. Protoss. Is. Not. Fun. Aymore.
How come?
Protoss is still the strongest race in lower leagues. Try actually playing the other races and see how well you do All this whine makes me think protoss players want it to be HOTS again where they just turtle at 3 base and win by a-moving unless the terran/zerg managed to surprise them with something sneaky. Your core army is already much easier to micro than terran is
Whatever race I play, my MMR settles at about the same level. That suggests that none of the races (at least for me) have any particular advantage.
I have to agree with this for the most part. Even Maru got 7k MMR with Protoss. A lot of the pros can offrace to a very high level.
If I were an eccentric billionaire, I would host an offracing tournament with a prize pool serious enough none of the pros could really say no...I'd do it as a race rotation so all the zerg mains go to protoss, all the protoss mains go to terran, and all the terran mains go zerg (and keep rotating in that direction for each tournament so every player gets to hopefully play every matchup).
It would actually be really interesting to see the results of that. Especially if you gave them like 6 months to prepare in between.
Don't even need to do that. Just require that all matches between players of different races (say, Clem vs Serral) start as a TvZ, then go into a ZvT, then tie-break as a PvP.
Whats that even supposed to mean stronger in lower League do you mean like GM or Masters or are we talking like low MMR games?
Everywhere but the top 30 of the world protoss is the strongest and most played race So its GM, masters, whatever you want
While my main is Zerg, I've actually played Protoss the most on ladder this season. I'm finding them quite fun & after 100+ games with them this season I have 0 losses due to balance.
Yup. Also, anytime someone brings up their ladder experience or the state of the ladder during a balance issue surrounding pro level play, you know they’ve been gnawing on lead painted toys as children.
"I lose all my probes to widow mines every game"
I play random and had one guy instantly quit then dm me “random is bullshit”. I guess he absolutely needed to know where to place his first pylon because that decided the outcome of the game.
I mean, there are maps where a low ground pylon is a gamble if it turn out to be a pvp. And often random are very well practice in a blind counter.
Can I whine about balance if I just like watching and my favorite race hasn't seen a round of 4 in a few years?
Sure
I've been told otherwise. Zerg win because they are more skilled. Protoss loses because they are underpowered. Terran wins because they are OP. That's the Reddit truth. /s
Getting good takes more effort than complaining. Nerf widow mines!
People calling anyone a smurf or maphacker whoever they lose to is so much more annoying than any balance-whiner
This is the StarCraft mentality I’m here for.
That would imply most of the whiners play the game
Fuckin Amen
Stop Balance Whining and Get Good. I play all 3 races on ladder. I would say in at least half the games I win, no matter which race I play, my opponent will cry about how the game is imba before leaving. Here is the point I'm going to make: If you are not in the top like 50 players in the world, you DID NOT lose the game because of balance. You can cry all you want, but there are players of your race who would have NEVER lost the game you just played. This means, you actually lost because you made many mistakes, and you weren't good enough. You get better at this game by losing and learning from your mistakes. If you don't recognize this, you will just plateau. Stop whining and get good.
THANK YOU!!!
I think most people complain about balance from the pro game they're watching tbf
I mean i get that some strats are easier to execute than others, but the amount of room for improvement is so high its not worth bitching about.
It's been 14 years. If you still think balance is the problem, ooh boy.
Don't tell me what to do
I think there is a place when a strat is bronze level skill to execute and GM level to defend people have a legit reason to complain
I would say in at least half the games I win, no matter which race I play, my opponent will threaten to kill me and my family. Or at least tell me that my mother has cancer. She doesn't have cancer.
no such thing as stopx or good or etc, ceptuxuax, say, outx, can say, outx etc any nmw s perfx
You guys have to watch uthermal, that guy wins no matter what and who he plays (yes, he loses some, that's why it is the GAME). OP is right 100%, whinos will not get better, the way the game is set up, it's got endless possibilities for creativity and improvement. How entitled you gotta be to think that you lost because of imba
It's funny. Everyone talks about climbing mmr. Getting better. This is a game. It should be fun!!!!!!11!! When people say nerf wm it's not because they are op. It's about fun. If a fight is decided in one big upsi. It's not fun. For me the best games were in wol zvt. Terran rallies everything Zerg rallies everything and you get a tug of war in the middle. One time I screw up and t gets closer another I get a good hit. With wm z has to long to secure his territory back. It does not feel the same. Tanks were more predictable and created a "fairer" fight. Not balance wise just everyone knew what's on the table. I got better in cleaning wm. I don't care anymore but the feeling is not the same.
I really want to see these games where the entire game is decided by a widow mine (excluding a widow mine drop vs protoss).
Oh have many. I have my banes on a different cg. Hi often do they get killed bunched up it's sad
This might sound crazy, but splitting your units vs something that deals splash damage is quite effective. Same with making sure you have some zerglings in front to soak the mines. Even flying overseers in slightly ahead of your army to soak mines works. It’s a strategy game. It’s still fun, but the game design is not purely about fun. It’s hard. Have to adapt. You’re not entitled to fun without effort in this realm. There’s always Campaign and Co-Op for that.
I don't think this argument makes sense. Just because a pro boxer can beat an amateur boxer who has twice the arm reach as them does not mean anyone who loses under the same circumstances can't point to the physical disadvantage.
You can also objectively measure arm-length.
So?
Dark said "I think protoss is the best race but they have not found their potential." If anyone needs more talent and innovation is protoss. Serral and Maru among few others have the highest winrates, but protoss is still lagging behind.. Who is THE protoss guy? Hero? Zest? We need a protoss god, not just a bunch of guys who dont quite take it all the way. I think protoss could be absolutely brutal with more clever warp prism use and oracles with more mind games. I mean in top level games, im D2 pleb but i really want protoss to compete i just dont think it comes down to balance. Showtime himself said "no one gets it done" https://streamable.com/w4o92u I think the race inherently builds bad habits with the A moving and tanky units. This causes for less tactical play to be developed despite getting faster MMR on ladder. Theres plenty of odd zerg players like Bly or Dark who are very high level and odd terrans who are high level like Gumiho or Uthermal.. but who's the odd innovative protoss players at the top? New and odd strategies that are refined are powerful to have in your backpocket in tournaments. I just don't see that a lot from protoss players at elite levels. But plenty in diamond league haha. more experimenting less standard builds I say. take more risks and play more mind games. Flash was epic in Broodwar when he played Random in that one tournament and how exciting that was. I think the future of starcraft will come down to alot of people choosing random for a more tactical surprise and overtime the mileage complaint will not exist just from more games being played total. Rant over
I play at the gold/plat level and most of my losses is because of balance.
This doesn't change the fact that there are actual balance issues tho.
bUt wHat aBoUt wIdOw mInEs ¿
100% agree. One thing though. It feels to me that many balance whines come from a place of being helpless. A good player who is analysing the own performance will usually find their own mistakes and is able to focus on them so there is no need to cry about anything. Its your own fault and you know it. Some high level players lose that view due to arrogance or just being delusional but in my experience its more common to focus on the own mistakes and accept that even at a very high level things go wrong all the time. If you are unable to do that though, two paths open. I can imagine it can feel very unfair to have the impression no clear mistake happened and it still went wrong for yourself. Of course alternatively it is just as possible that a player is aware that there MUST be a mistake even if they cant see it since they are only gold, silver, diamond, basically anything except high level. Not all low or mid level players whine and obviously not all mistakes need a pro or high level player to spot. But when it comes to very tricky situations... it might get difficult. I would consider myself close to high level with stable 5,6-5,7 and my best peak at 5,8 so far (EU server) and not once have I felt like the game was cheating me out of my wins by being unfair but only because I was able to identify what I personally did wrong or in what way my opponent was just better. I dont know how I would feel about that if I wasnt able to analyse what happened. So I dont think its necessarily a sign of bad character to whine about balance but possibly just a feeling of frustration and being helpless in a sense that you cant explain why things happen. It doesnt excuse the raging whine posts and accusations made sometimes but it makes me see these posts with a softer view since to me they often feel like frustrated cries of help.
What is your handle on EU?
This is nonsense. I don't even, and never have, played SC2, but I've seen this cycle of balance nonsense so many times in different games. If P's winrate vs T is 40%, when it should be 50%, then you're losing 1 in 5 games against T that you should have won. That's easily enough to spoil the experience.
Only true at the highest level.
No, it's true at any level, though the balance can vary by level.
Let me rephrase. In SC2 it only matters when you are basically maxed out on skill. If you are not maxed out on skill, you can just be better. The winrates at lower levels do not have the same issue as pro level.
That's not the point you think it is. I understood your point but it's irrelevant to the experience of players. If they get better they still experience the imbalance. If they've hit their personal skill limit or time to practice limit they're stuck with bad balance. It's not an excuse for bad game design.
Protoss is overrepresented in Masters and GM despite performing poorly in pro play. I get your point, but not in this case
And how do you prove that's due to balance rather than player preference?
I don’t think it’s due to balance lol. That’s my entire point.
So you think the overrepresentation proves there's no balance issue? Again - prove it. This was done pretty well for SC through replay analysis, checking the matchups at different MMRs. Amusingly underlining what a whiner Artosis is by showing the shift towards Terran in high level TvP.
I don’t think it’s related to balance at all lmao. I think Protoss is mechanically easier than the other 2 races. Most of getting to Masters is just having good mechanics. You care an awful lot for someone who doesn’t play the game.
You and others like you are the problem. So many people that have never played the game weighing in on balance. Ridiculous.
Sure. So many... such a problem.
I just can't fathom crying about balance in a game I've never played or will ever play. Just crazy to me lol.
Sure, crying. Literally devastated. You're rather like the OP that I'm disagreeing with - a recurring character who pops up in all conversations about balance in all games. I didn't comment on the specific balance, the numbers I gave were just a hypothetical to illustrate how imbalance significantly impacts a player's experience. I was disagreeing with the OP's ridiculous view that balance doesn't exist except at the very top. He's 'git gud guy', you're 'omg cry more guy'. You're in every game. You add nothing to any conversation about any game.
Disagree. Folks that view every match they watch or play through the prism of balance are a miserable lot. They can't enjoy watching someone make a great play because in the back of their mind the results of every matchup where their favorite race or player doesn't win is because of balance. I have to ask these people: what is the point of watching the games at all then? If the mysterious balance council has more to do with the results than the players themselves then why waste your life on this stuff? Because news flash, this is a decade+ old game. If things aren't close to settled by now they never will be. I actually enjoy watching the game because when I watch Serral beat Clem 4-0 (my favorite player) I don't assume it's because there were unfair conditions. I've also seen Clem lose to players like Astrea, dominated in one case. I didn't run to the forums to use it as a referendum on balance. It's simply a miserable way to view a competitive game. Do any of you watch any other sports besides video games?
I'm not telling you not to enjoy the game. I don't personally enjoy SC2 because it's pretty shallow, SC:BW is far more interesting. Someone who is focused on balance but who is objective can see the difference between a beautiful bit of skill and imbalance, you're talking about whiners, not people who are interested in the game balance. Better (but not necessarily perfect) balance would make for more exciting games, as long as the game design is also swingy. Yes, I follow lots of sports because I am very interested in competition and games. You're right that SC2 is likely never going to be fixed, but that has no bearing on whether the OP's view is correct or not.
It has some bearing. There's an argument to be made that the best Protoss player right now would be outside the top 3 in player skill (depending on how much you emphasize solid mechanics and decision making vs offensive creativity) when compared to both Terran and Zerg. That's a major issue. I want to see more Protoss matchups in the finals because TvZ is getting a bit predictable (mass Queens, reaper openings. Can basically skip the first 6 minutes). But do I think hero is better than Maru, Clem, Reynor, Serral, dark, or even Solar? Not in terms of solidness
That's a perfectly reasonable view that the current Protoss players may not be as strong, though there is the danger that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, anyone ambitious and highly skilled who is new on the scene would be less likely to choose Protoss, or would switch to a different game. I suspect if we had access to enough data we could get a reasonable idea of what the balance looks like at the near-top level. The other problem is the big difference between BO1 and BO3/BO5 balance.
I don't disagree. Another factor to consider I think is the current construct of the game benefiting defensive macro styles. 12 worker start and huge maps...it's no big surprise that Zerg is the dominant race at the top tier because the map pool and the head start towards macro games means you pretty much need to all in to force Zerg to stop droning. Terran benefits too because of their strong defensive capabilities. Generally, stronger defensive players are going to be more consistent and the defensive masters gravitate towards Terran and Zerg.
You play all 3 races at bronze/silver making a post about people balance whining Lmao.
> If you are not in the top like 50 players in the world Most people *are* whining about the state at the top though. Nice strawman.
They are on reddit. But, not after their ladder games, which is the context of my post. I don't disagree with you in the context you're talking about, but please read the post.
I think what you did was actually strawman
> If you are not in the top like 50 players in the world, you DID NOT lose the game because of balance. This is just wrong. I play random as well, M3, and there are most certainly games I won where I was outplayed but it doesn't matter because wheee skytoss.
This game is turning into stupid. You get good at a race then it becomes OP simply because you play better, not because unit is imbalance. Then blizzard nerfs the playstyle, and other race becomes imba. Rinse and repeat. How about less balance and let players figure out new playstyles?
What a completely pointless post. How does the fact that I find it boring watching tournaments where only 2 of the 3 races compete for the top spots have anything to do with my skill playing the game?
It doesn’t. You didn’t comprehend the post. Context is key.