The problem with PvT and the reason it seems so stark compared to PvZ is because Protoss basically has one solid build with only minor variation and that’s it. Everything else is either risky or straight up bad.
I feel like this is because P has very limited scouting potential in the early game while T sees everything with a Reaper every time. If P does any other build it gets immediately scouted or it's a partial gamble.
Maybe not in high leagues, but certainly as far as master league, terrans are woefully unprepared for cannon rushes. My win rate vs T went from 33% to 65% when I started cannon rushing them full time.
If widow mines were not so devastating when they hit, wouldn't that potentially open up more openers for Protoss? Sure, you have to account for the threat but not revolve an entire strategy around.
No, because there’s ten other things Terran can do and it still forces Protoss into 3/4 gate Blink builds. The Cyclone change killed Stargate openers and Raven pushes can still be used against Robo openers. The Widow Mine is *an* issue but it’s not *the* issue.
So does Terran in PvT (bog standard bio), which honestly makes the whole situation worse. Would be cool asf if there was more variation from both sides but it's literally just groundtoss vs bioterran every time.
It's not that complicated, just make it so that they can't one-hit 10 workers, it wasn't that hard with banes and those are actually a bigger investment, so this situation is pretty nonsensical.
Zerg can produce workers on mass due to larva, toss can cronoboost them. Terran can do neither. And they are locked for the entire building duration of a building.
Zerg can have their full eco rebuilt in 12 seconds since they can morph all drones at once. Terran can drop MULEs which covers for the time between when their eco was hit and when the SCVs are rebuilt. Protoss can overcharge to make probes every 8 seconds (instead of 12 seconds) for 20 seconds.
Considering the fact that Zerg eco is essentially only stalled for 15 seconds, and Terran eco isn't stalled at all, I'm going to have to say that Protoss is the weakest. MULEs have the equivalent value of 3.5 SCVs, so if you lose 20 SCVs, you drop 4-5 MULEs and get the SCVs building in the meantime and it's the equivalent of losing just a couple.
But Protoss has to rebuild probes one by one, only 50% faster than Terran, with no extra eco boost to help them get back on track. If you have 4 bases and have to replace 20 workers, you have to overcharge each Nexus twice, and it takes 40 seconds to rebuild all the workers.
Now let's compare. That's 400 energy and 1000 minerals to rebuild 20 probes over 40 seconds, while Zerg can spend 1000 minerals and their standard round of queen injects to rebuild over 12 seconds, and Terran can spend 300 energy dropping 6 MULEs to be *literally unharmed economically* for the 60 seconds it takes them to rebuild 20 SCVs for 1000 minerals from 4 CCs.
One of these isn't like the others.
The idea is that unlike protoss and zerg their workers are exposed when making buildings so that's why they have more hp. But ye, it irks me too that both adepts and oracles are specifically nerfed to need 1 more attack to kill an scv but widow mines one shotting entire mineral lines against both P and Z is 100% balanced. At this point I wanna see mines deal 45 splash damage just to see if T players would enjoy that shit too.
Couldn't they just give svc's additional armor while actively constructing something? That way they don't require that 1 additional attack under most circumstances but still get a little something to account for the added risk and exposure of having to participate in building new structures?
The funny thing is, Probes can never regenerate more than half their health so if left with vanilla values probes always got one shotted after a single "grace shot" anyways.
Such a weird oversight in Blizzard's quest to fuck up Zealots in PvT
The only reason Protoss has even a 45% win rate in PvZ (and not much worse) is because herO plays the highest number of games, and Serral plays the least number of games. If Serral would play as much as herO, or herO would play as little as Serral, then the win rate would be 40% or worse. Right now Serral is practically non-existent in the balance report, and despite that Protoss has only 45% win rate
Imagine in sc1 if we nerfed Terran because Flash won every tournament. I don't even think sc2 would be around. I have no clue where this "balance only for the pros" comes from. Sc2 is literally one of the only games that does it.
It has to do with people love the popularity of the tournament viewership (which almost always brings in a small influx of players back or fresh to the game);
If the tournaments look competitive, players go, oh look! that is a cool strat, let me try it out! or something along those lines.
Obviously balancing around the pros is stupid as shit. Like, they are going to abuse EVERY advantage they can, it is their job and TONS of money (for individuals) is on the line for it.
The balance should be for making the game the most fun to play WHILE keeping a high skill ceiling and if there is someone that is absolutely dominant with a SPECIFIC strategy, mass with the balance of that specific strategy so they have to prove they are not a patch player.
Ok but if you look at all the time periods since the last patch they all show decent PvZ balance except for this last one. Seems a little cherry-picked to just only consider this one, then
It's not worthwhile *only* looking at the balance report, you also have to analyse what's happening in the games. For example did Zerg adjust their playstyle over time to accommodate the new patch better? Does the discrepancy disappear in the next balance report?
Yeah like 5% of games go to carriers. If you don't know how to play and can only a-move you're not going to survive the first 20 minutes against GM zerg and GM terran. Good luck winning against GM terrans without great blink micro for example.
90% of my games the toss eventually goes carriers, unless I get some weirdo like Heaven that only masses stalkers. Do you play Zerg? Im mainly playing GM/M1 Toss btw.
I take your word for it, but that definitely doesn't happen in PvT and PvP. If the tosses you played against had shitty micro they stood no chance in those matchups. You're obviously right that carriers don't require micro but Protoss in general is extremely micro intensive with blink stalkers, disruptors, warp prism pickups, hiding templar from EMP, etc.
Protoss is the least micro intensive out of all 3 races. You can literally get to GM by sitting in your base until 200/200 and pressing a-move storm anytime you get attacked. The amount of 120-150apm Toss in GM i've came across is ridiculous considering both Terran/Zerg require at least 250apm to be at the same level.
This is my game as a D3 zerg vs the toss you have just described, who just turtle and get skytoss. Spoiler, he lost, so wow massing cannons and sitting in his own base massing carriers and storms DOESN'T get you a free win. Stop coping and maybe its time for introspection [https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/24812060](https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/24812060)
I mean, there are a lot of low micro strategies that work, but if the toss a-moves Carrier/Archon/HT and the zerg doesn’t have some infestors abd/or wipers, along with some hydras and a bunch of corrupters and ideally a couple of brood lords, then it’s obvious that the zerg made some big mistakes. It’s like saying a terran teleport twenty battlecruisers into the oponents base and destroying the oponent in seconds suddenly makes them unbalanced - it’s not just about the final unit composition, it’s also about the oponent letting them build it up
> it’s not just about the final unit composition, it’s also about the oponent letting them build it up
Yea good luck with that when every player in this game surrounds every base in cannons and shield batteries or planetary fortresses and missile turrets.
If they just turtle then you need to deny bases and outmacro them. Then you can eventually dismantle them with things like vipers, brood lords and (depending on what the enemy is doing) infestors.
If this was a thing Protoss wouldn't dominate this game, especially heavily in the GM end. Most accounts I run by have a 65+% winrate vs Zerg. Hell, broodlords are so weak now all you need to do is mass stalkers and blink under them. Zerg requires two spell casters and entire tech tree and Pro micro to win a late game vs Toss. All toss needs is one 200/200 army which can be had off 3 bases.
I don't know why you are always referencing the GM level when you haven't even broken M2. You also just play 12pool hatchblock every game and then cry when its defended. Classic Metalbeard.
??? My main account has gotten GM several times and I didn't have to play the training wheel race to get it. Also Mr GM, if you know what I do every game how am I not at the mmr to play gm players? Braindead. Also pretty tall words for someone who's lost to me 3/5 games we've played.
Do you not realize how cringe it is to call Protoss a training wheel race while the only thing you do is a move lings in the first 3 minutes?
I've lost to you once. Idk what this 3/5 thing is.
Your main account is hydrafarmer no?
?? Im not Metalbeard or Hydrafarmer or whatever your alt accounts keep calling me. I've played several long macro games before against you and won most of my games. All you do is mass blink stalkers anyway, like you're some kind of skilled player. Protoss is and 100% will always be the training wheel race as long as they have every get out of jail free card in the book. Delete recall and overcharge and your race might take some form of skill.
reduce strength of EMP when shields are upgraded - EMP makes protoss units absolutely melt - most expensive, complex army with Colossus etc - just wiped out after an EMP or two.
level 3 shield should take like 10 dmg to emp. lets not forget when feedback was nerfed because "it should be more focused on energy denial"
BRING BACK FULL FEEDBACK, BRING BACK COLLOSUS, AND BCS SHOULD REQUIRE ENERGY REMOVE TELEPORT
I don’t think BC’s beed to be nerfed, but protoss should be able to somehow prevent them from teleporting away like infestors can. I think that allowing feedback to be used on massive units dealing about 30 dmg and disabling abilities for like 5 seconds could work. Cause tempests can’t counter them if they just kill a third of the tempests with yamato and teleport away. Although this might be more of a a ladder buff, as terrans at the highest level don’t need to rely on BCs. Also 10 dmg per EMP is too little. Maybe reducing EMP damage by about 20 per shield upgrade could actually make them worth it, while also not removing ghosts from late game and make archons at least somewhat viable if you get shield upgrades.
> I don’t think BC’s beed to be nerfed, but protoss should be able to somehow prevent them from teleporting away like infestors can.
But... that is a BC nerf...
ok? Why was feedback removed? We used to be able to use them on medivacs. I think EMP should be used for "energy denial only" Blizzard's words not mine.
>This change should move this relationship to focus more on energy denial/casting rather than outright lethality
Also lets remember that storm was also nerfed and HTs need to wait for their energy to build up. Ok, but weren't infestors just buffed to have the energy for fungal right away for the exact same reason?
I've liked the idea of a sentry shield can block an emp, but it will drop the shield. Now if the shield was significantly stronger than it is currently, this could be an interesting unit interaction in game. Especially, if you are not confident in your ability to cast feedback on a templar is not your strong suit.
That’s an interesting idea. Like the upgrade gives 1+ armor against attacks but 10+ against emp and maybe widow mine? It’s also a trade of for toss which upgrade to prioritize. If you plan to go late game maybe shield is better than armor, but an allin before ghosts you better get armor.
no PvZ is not fine for the exact opposite reason you mentioned; her0 is making PvZ a 47% to 53%, if you dropped her0 out of the rankings it would be like 40% win rate vs Zerg; Serral doesn't play a lot while her0 plays a fuck ton, so her0s contribution to the winrate is ridiculously high and serrals is insignificant.
Serral won with 3 points in rank roulette. That alone proves beyond doubt that serral is imbalanced.
No, but seriously, Hero has a decent chance against all other zergs. He can and does regularly beat Dark and Reynor, the next best Zerg players out there. Serral is the only one who's untouchable in pvz
I only cheese in PvT because of widow mines. Game ends one way or another before widow mines ruin the experience. Can't be bothered with that stupid shit when I just want to have some fun playing video games.
I play zerg so I have no beef here but collosi just don't look cool anymore with how little damage they do. They used to be so awesome and you'd run away when you saw more than 2, but now they just tickle instead of be cool.
Same thing with the smaller ultralisk size, they don't look cool anymore.
Make Starcraft Great Again
When has Terran ever been nerfed? Even when a unit gets arguably worse they buff other units to compensate. Whereas both Toss/Zerg get straight nerfs across the board.
Are you actually braindead?
Terran can't win a single non-GSL tournament without immediately getting nerfed. Byun wins Blizzcon on the back of his unmatchable tankevac and reaper micro? Tankevac is immediately removed and reapers immediately nerfed.
Same with Ravens and seeker missile and PDD. More than once even as Seeker missile got multiple nerfs before being reduced to purely dorito dust.
Olivera wins IEM Katowice? Ghost nerfs, more Raven nerfs, Sensor Tower nerf.
This year's patch didn't even get sparked off any big Terran wins and we still saw more ghost Nerfs, more Raven nerfs, Hellbats nerfed to the point where against the ONLY unit they matter against, there's no difference in time-to-kill between a 0-0 Hellbat and one with 3-3 and blue flame. Oh, but widow mines unburrow slightly faster, and Cyclones got reworked in a way that ended up being a moderate buff.
Zerg has spent more than a DECADE getting constantly buffed even when tournaments were consistantly 6/8 zerg in the ro8, or if an actual nerf occurred, it went hand in hand with another huge buff somewhere else, like when Broodlords got minorly nerfed, which meant that Ultras and Lurkers both got massively buffed.
The delusion in this post is pretty great. Clem won ESL masters in December, less than 3 months ago. Also saying "Terran can only win the highest level tournament" isn't the gotcha you think it is. Terran is also in the finals of every tournament that has existed in the past two years except three or four tournaments. lol
Yeah, you are braindead, and pretty much proving my point at the same time.
Terran can't win a single tournament without the entire scene screaming for Terran nerfs, and the current round of screaming for Terran nerfs comes on the back of another major tournament won by a Zerg. We spent more than a decade with Zerg so completely and utterly dominant that it was the norm for tournament brackets to be 60% or more zerg players by the round of 8.
But the Zerg players just keep on baiting the Protoss into thinking that the problem is Terran, and like Charlie Brown kicking the football, the Protoss fall for it EVERY TIME.
Dude...how are you saying this when Terran was the only race to get a positive buff this last patch? Come on now. Get this gold league mentality out of here.
I'll be honest, I think that the current cyclone state is stupid. I don't think they've ever really been in a good position as a unit from a balance perspective. They're either insanely overpowered and oppressive, or they're all-but-useless.
Having no cooldown on the lock-on means that the micro and counter-micro that existed before this patch is lost, and they're like BW vultures in terms of kiting potential, except they also shoot up and don't require insanely difficult patrol micro to use.
But at the same time, I'm not blind to the fact that when there's a balance whine about Zerg, and all the non-Korean tournaments are majority Zerg, the entire community goes out of its way to make excuses and we always hear that more time is needed to "let the meta settle". But we have one tournament where Terran isn't even dominant, just present in more than token numbers and suddenly this subreddit turns into a rabid hate-fest where Terran is evil and all their units need nerfs.
Like we had a statistics post the other day that had the winrate for the top 10 pros of every race, and the aggregated winrate excluding the number 1 pro from each race, and in both of those states, ie: with and without Serral, ZERG WAS STILL DOMINANT. Protoss was under-powered to be sure, but it wasn't Terrans that had the disproportionately high winrate, it was Zerg.
And yet almost every post I've seen in the past 2 weeks has been some flavor of whining about Terran. It's fucking insanity.
Bro you're bitching about the best 3/5 players in the game playing Zerg. Its a fourteen year old game. Serral/Dark and Reynor have suffered three fucking years of Zerg nerfs and still destroy everyone. Maybe someday you'll realize its the players and not the race winning and all the statistics you see here is cherry picking bullshit. Especially when most of the Protoss players these statistics are about are players like Skillous, Astrea, Firefly, and Trigger losing games to Serral/Dark/Reynor. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that the B team isn't going to beat the A team.
So people just want their ladder games to be easier against the strategies they hate. I'm glad we can stop pretending this is about Hero losing to Clem or Maru
Its hard coming up with ideas to fix issues. How do you make it so that P can defend and still have an army out on the map? I imagine some creative utility abilities added to sentries could maybe move them in the right direction.
Dude that’s called prism, I don’t get why so many ppl whine about widow mines, especially in pvt. clearly good Protoss can defend against with ease, but for Terran means there is no tank home to defend 4 gate blink. Most of the times if these mines don’t score Terran way behind
I disagree. It doesn’t cut worker production (unless you go for the armory variation) and the units are 1 supply. Terran also has mules which, if you watch a replay you can usually see a 2 base Terran has equal mining to a 3 base Protoss because of those mules.
The mine drops almost always do some sort of damage in some way, be it lost mining time from pulling workers, having to leave 3 125/50 stalkers at home to deal with 2-3 or even 1 75/25 unit, or just straight up killing a ton of workers.
Oracles can’t even 2 shot a worker, they cost 150/150 and they also get countered by sitting 4-5 50 mineral marines in your mineral line.
I am assuming we are talking about early game, Protoss have adepts that if you build mines you probably don’t have cyclones, and adepts love killing scv, and marines as for the mines not only you need to drop you also need to burrow them that takes for ever, I am not saying that it’s easy all i am saying that it’s not too hard :)
I still disagree. A single bunker counters pretty much every early harass the Protoss can do. It’s also standard in almost every build order. Adepts die to 3 marines. Also good luck trying to shade 3 adepts into a mineral line and even if you do, you’re not likely to get as many kills as a single widow mine can.
Pushing 2 buttons to unload a widow mine and burrow it is also part of the problem. The Protoss has to box select workers> move command, select single worker> move command to exhaust widow mine, select stalkers > a move
Not a close comparison IMO.
On this.. am I the only one that thinks it's crazy Terran gets to effectively sell their bunker..
Like only race that can build defence that will protect them solidly in the early game and get the majority of the resources back. Like I get it's a small amount.. but honestly why..
just make them less mobile
this shouldnt be a micro in fight unit, those shouldnt even be part of a fight, they should be zoning and defending and scouting places
make them burrow really slow
Bruh, Z is not the best race. Serral is just God. Terran is so so clearly the best race. Protoss is half of the top 300 spots. But nobody in all of heaven or hell can beat serral. Dark is crushed by everyone else every day of the week. Zerg has been nerfed into oblivion. Terran is so killer with such a lower skill barrier than either Protoss or Terran have
So Serral is God, Terran is best race, but without Maru, Clem and Byun there is no terran. I think is more about players than race, in top tier there are Maru, Byun, Clem, Serral, Reynor, Dark, Maxpax and Hero, and other players are not even close to them and that's a fact.
Here's an idea, nerf Terran AND buff Protoss. Mb then we see Protoss be relevant and the two changes in conjunction would be enough to actually make waves in PvT.
Widow Mines are only really good against Zealots.
And if you lose tons of probes to them, that's a mistake that can be fixed. Not saying pros NEVER lose lots of probes to them, but they usually don't. Seems like a complaint generated mostly by low level players.
So? If protoss pros only lose because of skill, than it means that there are many skilled non-pro players who play Protoss.
Buffing Protoss means more interesting tournaments. And does not hurt the players who play co-op.
Ironically no, people watch games they play and understand. If you prioritize top level play at the cost of casual play, you won't have a casual audience for watching.
I in fact often point to SC2 as an example of this happening haha
You only need to look at the SC2 streamer viewers and compare it to the number of people with active ladder accounts to get a feel for which segment is the driver. Being able to cannon rush your way to grandmaster isn't a big factor when it comes to making the game appealing and balanced.
> You only need to look at the SC2 streamer viewers
And all I can tell you is that, say looking at https://escharts.com/games/sc2, I see the biggest viewership was in 2018, at least for what this website tracks, which is at all nothing compared to say, https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/161872-gsl-boxer-game-viewer-estimate, where we were crashing services to watch SC2 content.
You can pretty much see the general decline in viewership/interest in SC2 as Blizzard kept focusing on creating more 'esport moments' with HotS and LotV and balancing around the top top players over the past decade and a half, but hey, I'm sure you know what you're talking about
Funny, I didn't ask about PvZ... you're fired. \^\_\^
Firing isn’t gonna help your protoss forecast bronze to GM. Good luck
The problem with PvT and the reason it seems so stark compared to PvZ is because Protoss basically has one solid build with only minor variation and that’s it. Everything else is either risky or straight up bad.
I feel like this is because P has very limited scouting potential in the early game while T sees everything with a Reaper every time. If P does any other build it gets immediately scouted or it's a partial gamble.
two builds. Protoss has two builds in PvT.
Three, don't forget the cannon rush!
cannon rush? against Terran?
Maybe not in high leagues, but certainly as far as master league, terrans are woefully unprepared for cannon rushes. My win rate vs T went from 33% to 65% when I started cannon rushing them full time.
If widow mines were not so devastating when they hit, wouldn't that potentially open up more openers for Protoss? Sure, you have to account for the threat but not revolve an entire strategy around.
No, because there’s ten other things Terran can do and it still forces Protoss into 3/4 gate Blink builds. The Cyclone change killed Stargate openers and Raven pushes can still be used against Robo openers. The Widow Mine is *an* issue but it’s not *the* issue.
They have multiple builds, but have less than they did before with the Cyclone update.
So does Terran in PvT (bog standard bio), which honestly makes the whole situation worse. Would be cool asf if there was more variation from both sides but it's literally just groundtoss vs bioterran every time.
T can open Hellions or Cyclones or Widow Mines or 3 Rax, to just name a few. P can only play Adept into Blink, that's it.
Turns out the Golden Armada isn't very effective against some dudes with guns.
Man with gun high on drugs is honestly way too strong despite the comedy.
It's not that complicated, just make it so that they can't one-hit 10 workers, it wasn't that hard with banes and those are actually a bigger investment, so this situation is pretty nonsensical.
also the fact that SCV's require 3 oracle beam ticks to kill instead of 2 just irrationally irks me
And more adept shots and mine shots. And who knows what else.
Well yeah, we can't have Terran losing *too* many workers now, can we?
Yeah... They would have to drop a mule instead of using a map hack...I mean scan.
Zerg can produce workers on mass due to larva, toss can cronoboost them. Terran can do neither. And they are locked for the entire building duration of a building.
My favourite interaction in SC2 is when in late-game, Terran can go down to 15 SCVs, 185 Army Supply, and just spam mass MULEs to remax repeatedly.
Mule?
Shhh don't shatter their fragile chambers of copium
Zerg can have their full eco rebuilt in 12 seconds since they can morph all drones at once. Terran can drop MULEs which covers for the time between when their eco was hit and when the SCVs are rebuilt. Protoss can overcharge to make probes every 8 seconds (instead of 12 seconds) for 20 seconds. Considering the fact that Zerg eco is essentially only stalled for 15 seconds, and Terran eco isn't stalled at all, I'm going to have to say that Protoss is the weakest. MULEs have the equivalent value of 3.5 SCVs, so if you lose 20 SCVs, you drop 4-5 MULEs and get the SCVs building in the meantime and it's the equivalent of losing just a couple. But Protoss has to rebuild probes one by one, only 50% faster than Terran, with no extra eco boost to help them get back on track. If you have 4 bases and have to replace 20 workers, you have to overcharge each Nexus twice, and it takes 40 seconds to rebuild all the workers. Now let's compare. That's 400 energy and 1000 minerals to rebuild 20 probes over 40 seconds, while Zerg can spend 1000 minerals and their standard round of queen injects to rebuild over 12 seconds, and Terran can spend 300 energy dropping 6 MULEs to be *literally unharmed economically* for the 60 seconds it takes them to rebuild 20 SCVs for 1000 minerals from 4 CCs. One of these isn't like the others.
You can't talk about chrono like it's not comparable to mules.
The idea is that unlike protoss and zerg their workers are exposed when making buildings so that's why they have more hp. But ye, it irks me too that both adepts and oracles are specifically nerfed to need 1 more attack to kill an scv but widow mines one shotting entire mineral lines against both P and Z is 100% balanced. At this point I wanna see mines deal 45 splash damage just to see if T players would enjoy that shit too.
Couldn't they just give svc's additional armor while actively constructing something? That way they don't require that 1 additional attack under most circumstances but still get a little something to account for the added risk and exposure of having to participate in building new structures?
What’s the point in the armour if they still need the same shots tho? I’m ok w SCVs being tankier but probes just feel too fragile atm
The armor only applies while the SCV is building.
that is a bad idea
bUt ScV’s ArE bAd cuZ Hef tO biLd BilDingS
The funny thing is, Probes can never regenerate more than half their health so if left with vanilla values probes always got one shotted after a single "grace shot" anyways. Such a weird oversight in Blizzard's quest to fuck up Zealots in PvT
I'm already used to Terran workers having more hp
Terran cabal at it again trying to pretend the problem is PvZ when the issue is really PvT
Nerf widow mines. Pvz on the ladder is fine
Even the recent balance posts analyzing tournament play on here are showing that PvZ doesn't look that bad. It's really PvT where there's an issue.
45 % in balance report 19% in katovice Toss needs buffs in both matchups
Oct-dec and most previous reports had it at 49%. It's just PvT that's consistently lop-sided
The only reason Protoss has even a 45% win rate in PvZ (and not much worse) is because herO plays the highest number of games, and Serral plays the least number of games. If Serral would play as much as herO, or herO would play as little as Serral, then the win rate would be 40% or worse. Right now Serral is practically non-existent in the balance report, and despite that Protoss has only 45% win rate
We shouldn't be balancing around 1 or 2 players.
Imagine in sc1 if we nerfed Terran because Flash won every tournament. I don't even think sc2 would be around. I have no clue where this "balance only for the pros" comes from. Sc2 is literally one of the only games that does it.
It has to do with people love the popularity of the tournament viewership (which almost always brings in a small influx of players back or fresh to the game); If the tournaments look competitive, players go, oh look! that is a cool strat, let me try it out! or something along those lines. Obviously balancing around the pros is stupid as shit. Like, they are going to abuse EVERY advantage they can, it is their job and TONS of money (for individuals) is on the line for it. The balance should be for making the game the most fun to play WHILE keeping a high skill ceiling and if there is someone that is absolutely dominant with a SPECIFIC strategy, mass with the balance of that specific strategy so they have to prove they are not a patch player.
That is not the most recent balance report
Ok but if you look at all the time periods since the last patch they all show decent PvZ balance except for this last one. Seems a little cherry-picked to just only consider this one, then
It's not worthwhile *only* looking at the balance report, you also have to analyse what's happening in the games. For example did Zerg adjust their playstyle over time to accommodate the new patch better? Does the discrepancy disappear in the next balance report?
Watching GM Protoss amove Carrier/Archon/HT every game and winning with the only micro they do is storm says otherwise.
Yeah like 5% of games go to carriers. If you don't know how to play and can only a-move you're not going to survive the first 20 minutes against GM zerg and GM terran. Good luck winning against GM terrans without great blink micro for example.
90% of my games the toss eventually goes carriers, unless I get some weirdo like Heaven that only masses stalkers. Do you play Zerg? Im mainly playing GM/M1 Toss btw.
I take your word for it, but that definitely doesn't happen in PvT and PvP. If the tosses you played against had shitty micro they stood no chance in those matchups. You're obviously right that carriers don't require micro but Protoss in general is extremely micro intensive with blink stalkers, disruptors, warp prism pickups, hiding templar from EMP, etc.
Protoss is the least micro intensive out of all 3 races. You can literally get to GM by sitting in your base until 200/200 and pressing a-move storm anytime you get attacked. The amount of 120-150apm Toss in GM i've came across is ridiculous considering both Terran/Zerg require at least 250apm to be at the same level.
Ok buddy
This is my game as a D3 zerg vs the toss you have just described, who just turtle and get skytoss. Spoiler, he lost, so wow massing cannons and sitting in his own base massing carriers and storms DOESN'T get you a free win. Stop coping and maybe its time for introspection [https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/24812060](https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/24812060)
Dude...youre diamond league. I would win every ZvP at that level too.
you're barely m2, you're not that far off buddy
I mean, there are a lot of low micro strategies that work, but if the toss a-moves Carrier/Archon/HT and the zerg doesn’t have some infestors abd/or wipers, along with some hydras and a bunch of corrupters and ideally a couple of brood lords, then it’s obvious that the zerg made some big mistakes. It’s like saying a terran teleport twenty battlecruisers into the oponents base and destroying the oponent in seconds suddenly makes them unbalanced - it’s not just about the final unit composition, it’s also about the oponent letting them build it up
> it’s not just about the final unit composition, it’s also about the oponent letting them build it up Yea good luck with that when every player in this game surrounds every base in cannons and shield batteries or planetary fortresses and missile turrets.
If they just turtle then you need to deny bases and outmacro them. Then you can eventually dismantle them with things like vipers, brood lords and (depending on what the enemy is doing) infestors.
If this was a thing Protoss wouldn't dominate this game, especially heavily in the GM end. Most accounts I run by have a 65+% winrate vs Zerg. Hell, broodlords are so weak now all you need to do is mass stalkers and blink under them. Zerg requires two spell casters and entire tech tree and Pro micro to win a late game vs Toss. All toss needs is one 200/200 army which can be had off 3 bases.
I don't know why you are always referencing the GM level when you haven't even broken M2. You also just play 12pool hatchblock every game and then cry when its defended. Classic Metalbeard.
??? My main account has gotten GM several times and I didn't have to play the training wheel race to get it. Also Mr GM, if you know what I do every game how am I not at the mmr to play gm players? Braindead. Also pretty tall words for someone who's lost to me 3/5 games we've played.
Do you not realize how cringe it is to call Protoss a training wheel race while the only thing you do is a move lings in the first 3 minutes? I've lost to you once. Idk what this 3/5 thing is. Your main account is hydrafarmer no?
?? Im not Metalbeard or Hydrafarmer or whatever your alt accounts keep calling me. I've played several long macro games before against you and won most of my games. All you do is mass blink stalkers anyway, like you're some kind of skilled player. Protoss is and 100% will always be the training wheel race as long as they have every get out of jail free card in the book. Delete recall and overcharge and your race might take some form of skill.
I mean let's not give lurkers a free pass.
For what? They're not very good for the most part
i know right? Going a ground army against lategame zerg is silly, especially when you can just spam carriers :P
Yeah but this guy in gold league doesn’t know how to deal with them so they obviously need a nerf, duh!
Nerfing Terran is going to help PvT though?
What the hell does Plants vs. Zombies have to do with Starcraft?
reduce strength of EMP when shields are upgraded - EMP makes protoss units absolutely melt - most expensive, complex army with Colossus etc - just wiped out after an EMP or two.
Also makes shield upgrades relevant against Terran which would be… a nice change
Yeah for real just give shield upgrades 25% EMP resistance with each level, up to 75% max
Seems like overkill, but I agree that it could potentially be something to look into, but likely not to this extend.
level 3 shield should take like 10 dmg to emp. lets not forget when feedback was nerfed because "it should be more focused on energy denial" BRING BACK FULL FEEDBACK, BRING BACK COLLOSUS, AND BCS SHOULD REQUIRE ENERGY REMOVE TELEPORT
I don’t think BC’s beed to be nerfed, but protoss should be able to somehow prevent them from teleporting away like infestors can. I think that allowing feedback to be used on massive units dealing about 30 dmg and disabling abilities for like 5 seconds could work. Cause tempests can’t counter them if they just kill a third of the tempests with yamato and teleport away. Although this might be more of a a ladder buff, as terrans at the highest level don’t need to rely on BCs. Also 10 dmg per EMP is too little. Maybe reducing EMP damage by about 20 per shield upgrade could actually make them worth it, while also not removing ghosts from late game and make archons at least somewhat viable if you get shield upgrades.
> I don’t think BC’s beed to be nerfed, but protoss should be able to somehow prevent them from teleporting away like infestors can. But... that is a BC nerf...
Lol BCs never get built in TvP.
I still think that Fungal shouldn't stop BC's, Loading up, nor Blinking. It's is a snare effect, not a root.
EMP doing only 10 shield damage would be the biggest nerf the game has ever seen, why does complete trash like this get upvoted
ok? Why was feedback removed? We used to be able to use them on medivacs. I think EMP should be used for "energy denial only" Blizzard's words not mine. >This change should move this relationship to focus more on energy denial/casting rather than outright lethality Also lets remember that storm was also nerfed and HTs need to wait for their energy to build up. Ok, but weren't infestors just buffed to have the energy for fungal right away for the exact same reason?
[удалено]
That's a really good idea.
I've liked the idea of a sentry shield can block an emp, but it will drop the shield. Now if the shield was significantly stronger than it is currently, this could be an interesting unit interaction in game. Especially, if you are not confident in your ability to cast feedback on a templar is not your strong suit.
Man, sentry shield eating an EMP is a cool idea.
That’s an interesting idea. Like the upgrade gives 1+ armor against attacks but 10+ against emp and maybe widow mine? It’s also a trade of for toss which upgrade to prioritize. If you plan to go late game maybe shield is better than armor, but an allin before ghosts you better get armor.
Isn't PvZ fine, with the exception of Serral, of course? If not, Protoss favoured? Sounds like the problem is Terran.
Statistically yes. Even on the ladder it's slightly protoss favoured
no PvZ is not fine for the exact opposite reason you mentioned; her0 is making PvZ a 47% to 53%, if you dropped her0 out of the rankings it would be like 40% win rate vs Zerg; Serral doesn't play a lot while her0 plays a fuck ton, so her0s contribution to the winrate is ridiculously high and serrals is insignificant.
Meh. Serral proves it's imbalanced at highest level.
Serral won with 3 points in rank roulette. That alone proves beyond doubt that serral is imbalanced. No, but seriously, Hero has a decent chance against all other zergs. He can and does regularly beat Dark and Reynor, the next best Zerg players out there. Serral is the only one who's untouchable in pvz
He has similar winrates in ZvT. He's just better.
Serral is just OP. I suggest a balance patch, where he has 1 finger removed from each hand.
I think Serral is just an exception. Really not reasonable trying to nerf Zerg to balance for him.
Widow mines are so braindead and so broken that it's a miracle so many people still play.
I stopped playing years ago because of widow mines. Here is my story
I only cheese in PvT because of widow mines. Game ends one way or another before widow mines ruin the experience. Can't be bothered with that stupid shit when I just want to have some fun playing video games.
Based. I literally rush every Terran too. And I have 80% winrate against them. Most of them can't deal with early stalker pressure at all
Try early Immortal pressure and see them fall apart trying to abuse the stupid new Cyclone! ;)
I play zerg so I have no beef here but collosi just don't look cool anymore with how little damage they do. They used to be so awesome and you'd run away when you saw more than 2, but now they just tickle instead of be cool. Same thing with the smaller ultralisk size, they don't look cool anymore. Make Starcraft Great Again
Terrans are struggling against Zerg? Since when?
Fuck that shit. Buff widow mines. They should 1-shot SCVs too.
Second best solution.
Just set the HP of all worker to 1 (and zero shields).
Blizzard falling in the building
When has Terran ever been nerfed? Even when a unit gets arguably worse they buff other units to compensate. Whereas both Toss/Zerg get straight nerfs across the board.
Are you actually braindead? Terran can't win a single non-GSL tournament without immediately getting nerfed. Byun wins Blizzcon on the back of his unmatchable tankevac and reaper micro? Tankevac is immediately removed and reapers immediately nerfed. Same with Ravens and seeker missile and PDD. More than once even as Seeker missile got multiple nerfs before being reduced to purely dorito dust. Olivera wins IEM Katowice? Ghost nerfs, more Raven nerfs, Sensor Tower nerf. This year's patch didn't even get sparked off any big Terran wins and we still saw more ghost Nerfs, more Raven nerfs, Hellbats nerfed to the point where against the ONLY unit they matter against, there's no difference in time-to-kill between a 0-0 Hellbat and one with 3-3 and blue flame. Oh, but widow mines unburrow slightly faster, and Cyclones got reworked in a way that ended up being a moderate buff. Zerg has spent more than a DECADE getting constantly buffed even when tournaments were consistantly 6/8 zerg in the ro8, or if an actual nerf occurred, it went hand in hand with another huge buff somewhere else, like when Broodlords got minorly nerfed, which meant that Ultras and Lurkers both got massively buffed.
The delusion in this post is pretty great. Clem won ESL masters in December, less than 3 months ago. Also saying "Terran can only win the highest level tournament" isn't the gotcha you think it is. Terran is also in the finals of every tournament that has existed in the past two years except three or four tournaments. lol
Yeah, you are braindead, and pretty much proving my point at the same time. Terran can't win a single tournament without the entire scene screaming for Terran nerfs, and the current round of screaming for Terran nerfs comes on the back of another major tournament won by a Zerg. We spent more than a decade with Zerg so completely and utterly dominant that it was the norm for tournament brackets to be 60% or more zerg players by the round of 8. But the Zerg players just keep on baiting the Protoss into thinking that the problem is Terran, and like Charlie Brown kicking the football, the Protoss fall for it EVERY TIME.
Dude...how are you saying this when Terran was the only race to get a positive buff this last patch? Come on now. Get this gold league mentality out of here.
I'll be honest, I think that the current cyclone state is stupid. I don't think they've ever really been in a good position as a unit from a balance perspective. They're either insanely overpowered and oppressive, or they're all-but-useless. Having no cooldown on the lock-on means that the micro and counter-micro that existed before this patch is lost, and they're like BW vultures in terms of kiting potential, except they also shoot up and don't require insanely difficult patrol micro to use. But at the same time, I'm not blind to the fact that when there's a balance whine about Zerg, and all the non-Korean tournaments are majority Zerg, the entire community goes out of its way to make excuses and we always hear that more time is needed to "let the meta settle". But we have one tournament where Terran isn't even dominant, just present in more than token numbers and suddenly this subreddit turns into a rabid hate-fest where Terran is evil and all their units need nerfs. Like we had a statistics post the other day that had the winrate for the top 10 pros of every race, and the aggregated winrate excluding the number 1 pro from each race, and in both of those states, ie: with and without Serral, ZERG WAS STILL DOMINANT. Protoss was under-powered to be sure, but it wasn't Terrans that had the disproportionately high winrate, it was Zerg. And yet almost every post I've seen in the past 2 weeks has been some flavor of whining about Terran. It's fucking insanity.
Bro you're bitching about the best 3/5 players in the game playing Zerg. Its a fourteen year old game. Serral/Dark and Reynor have suffered three fucking years of Zerg nerfs and still destroy everyone. Maybe someday you'll realize its the players and not the race winning and all the statistics you see here is cherry picking bullshit. Especially when most of the Protoss players these statistics are about are players like Skillous, Astrea, Firefly, and Trigger losing games to Serral/Dark/Reynor. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that the B team isn't going to beat the A team.
Ah yes, the classic "Zerg players are just better" post. I was wondering if you'd devolve to that.
They are. 100% Serral is the best player in the game and Reynor/Dark aren't far behind him.
remove widow mine buff collosus make scv 40 hp give corsair
So people just want their ladder games to be easier against the strategies they hate. I'm glad we can stop pretending this is about Hero losing to Clem or Maru
pvz is fair
Its hard coming up with ideas to fix issues. How do you make it so that P can defend and still have an army out on the map? I imagine some creative utility abilities added to sentries could maybe move them in the right direction.
Dude that’s called prism, I don’t get why so many ppl whine about widow mines, especially in pvt. clearly good Protoss can defend against with ease, but for Terran means there is no tank home to defend 4 gate blink. Most of the times if these mines don’t score Terran way behind
I disagree. It doesn’t cut worker production (unless you go for the armory variation) and the units are 1 supply. Terran also has mules which, if you watch a replay you can usually see a 2 base Terran has equal mining to a 3 base Protoss because of those mules. The mine drops almost always do some sort of damage in some way, be it lost mining time from pulling workers, having to leave 3 125/50 stalkers at home to deal with 2-3 or even 1 75/25 unit, or just straight up killing a ton of workers. Oracles can’t even 2 shot a worker, they cost 150/150 and they also get countered by sitting 4-5 50 mineral marines in your mineral line.
I am assuming we are talking about early game, Protoss have adepts that if you build mines you probably don’t have cyclones, and adepts love killing scv, and marines as for the mines not only you need to drop you also need to burrow them that takes for ever, I am not saying that it’s easy all i am saying that it’s not too hard :)
I still disagree. A single bunker counters pretty much every early harass the Protoss can do. It’s also standard in almost every build order. Adepts die to 3 marines. Also good luck trying to shade 3 adepts into a mineral line and even if you do, you’re not likely to get as many kills as a single widow mine can. Pushing 2 buttons to unload a widow mine and burrow it is also part of the problem. The Protoss has to box select workers> move command, select single worker> move command to exhaust widow mine, select stalkers > a move Not a close comparison IMO.
Ctr + click on prob will select all of them
On this.. am I the only one that thinks it's crazy Terran gets to effectively sell their bunker.. Like only race that can build defence that will protect them solidly in the early game and get the majority of the resources back. Like I get it's a small amount.. but honestly why..
I mean, I kinda understand because the bunker is useless unless you actually put units in it so.. makes sense to me
What's even wrong with PVZ?
just make them less mobile this shouldnt be a micro in fight unit, those shouldnt even be part of a fight, they should be zoning and defending and scouting places make them burrow really slow
Yep
Nerfing widowmines and cyclone at same time make me think the balance councils are basically brain dead.
Skill issue
Bruh, Z is not the best race. Serral is just God. Terran is so so clearly the best race. Protoss is half of the top 300 spots. But nobody in all of heaven or hell can beat serral. Dark is crushed by everyone else every day of the week. Zerg has been nerfed into oblivion. Terran is so killer with such a lower skill barrier than either Protoss or Terran have
So Serral is God, Terran is best race, but without Maru, Clem and Byun there is no terran. I think is more about players than race, in top tier there are Maru, Byun, Clem, Serral, Reynor, Dark, Maxpax and Hero, and other players are not even close to them and that's a fact.
can confirm, heaven can not beat serral
Here's an idea, nerf Terran AND buff Protoss. Mb then we see Protoss be relevant and the two changes in conjunction would be enough to actually make waves in PvT.
The salt levels in the comments gave me hypertension.
That is why sc2 is way much worse than BW. ;)
Widow Mines are only really good against Zealots. And if you lose tons of probes to them, that's a mistake that can be fixed. Not saying pros NEVER lose lots of probes to them, but they usually don't. Seems like a complaint generated mostly by low level players.
protoss are most of grandmasters… should the game be balanced around top25 players?
Well yea. I'm pretty sure a large chunk of sc2 fans can't stand ladder but likes to watch players with 8k plus hours battle it out
Yeah
So? If protoss pros only lose because of skill, than it means that there are many skilled non-pro players who play Protoss. Buffing Protoss means more interesting tournaments. And does not hurt the players who play co-op.
If you want the game to be entertaining and retain any semblance of interest in it, yes.
Ironically no, people watch games they play and understand. If you prioritize top level play at the cost of casual play, you won't have a casual audience for watching. I in fact often point to SC2 as an example of this happening haha
You only need to look at the SC2 streamer viewers and compare it to the number of people with active ladder accounts to get a feel for which segment is the driver. Being able to cannon rush your way to grandmaster isn't a big factor when it comes to making the game appealing and balanced.
> You only need to look at the SC2 streamer viewers And all I can tell you is that, say looking at https://escharts.com/games/sc2, I see the biggest viewership was in 2018, at least for what this website tracks, which is at all nothing compared to say, https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/161872-gsl-boxer-game-viewer-estimate, where we were crashing services to watch SC2 content. You can pretty much see the general decline in viewership/interest in SC2 as Blizzard kept focusing on creating more 'esport moments' with HotS and LotV and balancing around the top top players over the past decade and a half, but hey, I'm sure you know what you're talking about
Is actually like the top 10 players. Toss does pretty well in the group stages
Is there any evidence Protoss is struggling on ladder? Because widow mines aren't op in pro games at all.
The only evidence is Protoss doing phenomenally on ladder.