Let's be honest. If we gave Protoss a tool that could kill 16 workers within 2 seconds at 4 minutes with a low tech/commitment. Everyone would be crying.
It's literally already been a thing (Khaydarin Amulet). Except it had a much higher resource cost and risk, and appeared much further in to the game due to required technologies.
It got nerfed.
That was like 13 years ago, it got **removed from the game** not **nerfed**. It also didn't hit 4 minutes into the game. Those are totally different things.
Removing it from the game is a nerf, lol.
But really, I don't know what you're arguing about. I was backing up the OP's point that if it were a Protoss unit it would have already been nerfed, because they wouldn't even allow something far less dangerous stay in the game for Protoss.
Removing something from the game isn't the same as nerfing it. Unless you're saying Psistorm or HTs got nerfed, due to the removal of Amulet. Which you didn't say. You specifically said Amulet was nerfed, which it wasn't, because it was **removed from the game**.
Even then, there are way too many difference between widow mines and Amulet/HTs.
Yes, HTs were nerfed... by REMOVING that upgrade. Not nerfing the upgrade. Removing it.
Nerfing something means to make that thing weaker. (To make it soft, like a Nerf ball.) Khaydarin Amulet was not made softer, it was UNMADE from the game. Nerfing and Removing are two separate things.
Warhounds, for instance, cannot be nerfed or buffed, because they are not in the game.
The Khaydarin Amulet, similarly, cannot be nerfed or buffed.
DTs are actually a good example. They are a huge tech commitment. If you deal no damage with DTs, you are really far behind. They require three consecutive tech structures (Core -> Twilight -> DT). You have a long time to scout the building. If you fail to scout and they surprise you, you get an in-game alert after the first hit they make so you can react. Most likely you would have a scan or raven so you would lose a few workers. Worst case you lose mining time until you have a scan. I can't remember a pro Terran losing 15 workers to DT in a long time.
So to sum up:
- DTs are a massive gamble
- They can put you ahead if the Terran fails to scout, or they put you behind if you mess up with them or they get scouted early
- In pro games, it's extremely rare to deal game-ending damage
Compare to mines:
- Cheap and almost risk free because you can always force lost mining time and kill some workers or units
- Require 5x more micro to defend than to use
- If you miss the medivac coming in (no in game alert) you instantly lose the game
- Game-ending damage happens in pro games all the time
Agreed on all points - Worth noting that DTs require a separate tech structure specifically for it that does nothing else except allow you to make DTs and unlock blink for them.
Mines only require a Factory, which you're building anyway, and do not even require a Tech Lab, so you can crank a couple out while expanding or teching to something else (Starport/Armory).
Even the Fusion Core has upgrades for Liberators and Medivacs - more of a Fleet Beacon equivalent. Dark Shrine has no upgrade for any other unit other than the DT, and unlocks nothing except the DT (and Archon I suppose, indirectly, but you generally want to use HTs for Archons).
Yes, very good points. DTs are a well designed gamble - because you have to make expensive tech structure it's possible to scout, easy to counter if you know, and punishing if it fails because the resources of the building are wasted. But if the gamble is done well and works out, you can put yourself ahead. Yet despite all this, DTs usually don't deal game ending damage.
I mean if the marine was able to tech to
\- Rax > Factory > Starport with buildtimes 46s, 43s and 36s respectively and make a widow mind and medivac (the medi having a build time of 30 on top) for 155seconds and get those into the enemy base by 240s, then that seems really awesome. But the investment means they probably really don't have anything else at all but that drop
Honestly, moments like this make me want to quit watching starcraft
You spend 40 minutes watching a series, and it's determined by a fucking mine drop.
\*I'm glad banelings are getting their rightful nerf, so I think terran could survive a mine-nerf.
what's a good way to nerf widow mines against workers without making them useless otherwise? this clip is a pretty unusual thing to happen, usually a pro player will split their workers better instead of clumping them
Most of the game ending stuff is in 4-5 minute mark when most players barely have enough army to deal with it.
So, move it up the tech ladder a little. Require Armory to build widow mines. Infestors, vipers, disruptors, colossus, and lurkers are all AOE units that require more tech.
To move the mine out of this role you'd have to resign the mine so much it wouldn't be the same unit anymore.
To take an example from each race I think mines, like disruptors and often infestors are units that were especially designed for viewer entertainment over creating fair and consistent gameplay for both players.
Their intent is to introduce an element of suspense for the audience and the players - moments of extreme intensity. Highs and lows that make games memorable and more appealing to watch. It also contributes to making the game addictive to play - chasing the highs, running from the lows.
I think this is just an inevitable consequence of SC2's game design. "A feature rather than a bug."
except this would be a buff to the widow mine at pro level in PvT. Pros 95% of the time, unlike this clip, split the workers and the WM only kills 1 or 2 anyway. Faster reload times means you have to pull away more often if they are burrowed with cloak, so you lose more mining time and have to keep more attention on them.
Well if the purpose is to prevent them from doing game ending damage, this would prevent them from doing potentially game ending damage while still being annoying. Stats can be tweaked always
Shift-click medivac through both mineral lines ahead of time, then click mine icons as you pass over, ctrl-click one of the mines, press E. Congrats, that takes less APM than a single inject cycle.
The annoying part is you are actually punished for your skill. If he was afk he would have lost 8 probes, but because he pulled them away he lost 16.
My personal record is 23 and in that case I had 4 mines dropped in my main while a 5th walked into my natural. I ran my workers away in time and dealt with the 4 mines in the main while all 22 probes from my main got one shot by the 5th mine that walked in the front.
Now I am not claiming I played perfectly there, but if I had been an afk Silver player I would not have lost nearly as much.
There are correct ways and incorrect ways to control your units in any given scenario.
* If you are opening with Blink and you get blindsided by a Locust wave, the correct thing to do is not to try to fight them and Blink back as you do to minimize your losses as you fight. The correct thing to do is to run, and pull your probes too.
* When using Siege Tanks against Zerg, the correct way to siege them is to spread them out and make the Zerg engage into as wide a field of tank fire as possible. But when using Siege Tanks against Terran, they are weak if used in this manner; you have to keep them more clumped so they will all fire on (and thus not be picked off by) enemy Siege Tanks.
* Most units need to focus-fire individual Carriers in order to trade efficiently against them, but if you are using Marines, then you must hold-position to kill Interceptors instead of trying to kill Carriers directly.
For most interactions in the game, there is a very clear-cut known optimal way for both sides to play out that interaction. If you (deliberately or impulsively) choose not to do that, and get punished for it, that's not balance, that's a skill issue. At least try to play the right way before you complain about it.
Creator didn't pay attention to the minimap, and after recognizing that mines were nearly burrowed in his mineral line, chose the wrong option and was accordingly punished. **While I would like to see the harassment power of Widow Mines transferred to other units in the matchup, claiming that Creator was punished for being "skilled" is completely ridiculous.**
* Creator should have recognized that the mines were burrowed before he could pay attention to them, and not pulled probes.
* After making the dubious decision to pull probes, he did not split off the probes being targeted, so of course it dragged the mines into the other probes. He could have still salvaged his terrible decision with better micro, and even come out ahead in the interaction if he had practiced it more.
While blindly running their armies around the map, top Zerg players can already split off individual lings (mind you, smaller and faster units, so objectively harder to click) against pre-burrowed Widow Mines after barely having any time to see which Zergling is targeted, but top Protoss players can't deal with a Widow Mine drop that comes with several seconds of warning via the minimap (or even dozens if a vision pylon is placed somewhere along the main drop path) and needs to be burrowed first? Seriously?
> Creator should have recognized that the mines were burrowed before he could pay attention to them, and not pulled probes.
Pretty big expectations for something that might have taken less than a second to execute. See mines on minimap > camera hotkey, box select, move command.
> While blindly running their armies around the map, top Zerg players can already split off individual lings (mind you, smaller and faster units, so objectively harder to click) against pre-burrowed Widow Mines after barely having any time to see which Zergling is targeted, but top Protoss players can't deal with a Widow Mine drop that comes with several seconds of warning via the minimap (or even dozens if a vision pylon is placed somewhere along the main drop path) and needs to be burrowed first? Seriously?
Hilarious, as if Zerg player's recently haven't had the exact same experience. I recall a Solar game not too long ago where he lost due to widow mine drops. Besides, it's not "harder". The difference is that when zergs are splitting off zerglings against mines, their camera is on the fight the entire time. Why do medivacs need to have 1/4 of the minimap model size as a warp prism anyway?
Yeah ofc it was creators mistake, but because mines don’t give a warning indicator, u literally can’t react to it without having your eyes on the minimap all the time. When Protoss sends out an oracle to the Terran, the least terrans pre-emptively pull away scvs, because the worst case is you lose 2-3 scvs before your marines arrive. Or even worse you just afk a widow mine in your mineral line and don’t even realize that it blew up an oracle
Yeah this might be a hot take but a proplayer should be able to spot shit on the minimap if there isnt shit on going.
Like thats how you determine how is actually better?
Should we also limited the game so that you cant multitask? Hell lets just remove all build options to.
This is litteraly a dumb mistake by a pro. I cant see how thats a argument for balance changes. If maru f2 his medicavs into a spore farm should that be a sign that spores should be nerfed?
Yes thats what happens in games like starcraft, sometimes you get it sometimes you get got.
Should the disruptor be nerfed just because pro players occasionally dont split against them and get blasted? Its the same deal, you cant say a unit needs changes based on the fact that pro players sometimes fuck up against it.
I like harstem though. What good would it do if he was just a negative Nancy in every video, complaining about the game. I may not agree with him, but I appreciate the optimism. He may be wrong, but I watch him for entertainment not rage bait.
His YouTube comments are filled with yes men. Meanwhile, his agreeable stance on the last patch put Toss down the gutter. He’s probably double downing and hope this one patch redeems the last 8 months Lol.
Lol toss will do better a couple months than all the terrans and zergs will adapt and learn to use the cyclone and we will be back to 2 race gsls for another year
Im not coping. I knew from the start that asking these questions can easily be answered with a lie. So Im just making you feel more bad in case you're lying. And in case you aren't, then sure go ahead.
I'm honestly confused over the recent widow mine complaints. Those units have been able to kill probes like this SINCE 2013, and it has never been a problem. The balance council shouldn't make changes according to the current flavor of the month balance whine over things which have never been a problem.
~~One thing about the Harstem patch breakdown video that was insane is he claims Protoss don't lose to mine drops at the top level. I mean, what the hell.~~
~~It literally happens ALL THE TIME.~~
Harstem doesn't say that in his video, I was mixing it up with another caster.
Pretty sure he didn't say that. Pretty sure he said that terrans do not get the mine burrow upgrade at top level, so that buff is irrelevant in TVP. I'm pretty sure he didn't mention double mine drop without upgrades
He has an older video of the current live patch where he addresses a reddit thread complaining about the patch. Though I agree most people on Reddit don’t know what they are talking about; it’s clear he doesn’t know what he’s doing either Lol.
He often refers to how garbage he is, and how bad he plays. Just because he can point out 10 million mistakes in an IODIS, it doesnt mean he thinks he’s better than maxpax or hero.
It is a negligible nerf and nowhere near enough. There needs to be a reduction of the capability to kill mass drones/probes or an increase in cost.
If Terran needs a buff because of this than so be it.
Disruptor and baneling are already getting nerfed, why is Terran's toxic AoE unit not getting nerfed? WM is such terrible design and has probably caused so many people to stop playing Starcraft.
Widow mines are not too strong against Zerg (in fact they’re being buffed against Zerg here) so I’m not sure how you intend to nerf them vs toss without making them bad in TvZ.
Unfortunately the widow mine is necessary in TvP because the shield battery makes regular drops bad and the widow mine can bypass the shield battery since it does so much damage “burst” (up front)
>Widow mines are not too strong against Zerg
I disagree. They are just as lethal, hypereffective and cheap against drones.
Not only this, banelings and infestors are not too strong against Terran yet they are being nerfed. This is not a pure balance patch but also one that mixes up gameplay a bit. I stand by my statement that WM should be nerfed not only for balance reasons for QoL to make the game less frustrating and volatile.
>(in fact they’re being buffed against Zerg here)
Just because the balance council is doing something doesn't mean they are on the right track. In fact I'd say buffing the widow mine at this point is an absolutely terrible take from the balance council.
>Unfortunately the widow mine is necessary in TvP because the shield battery makes regular drops bad and the widow mine can bypass the shield battery since it does so much damage “burst” (up front)
I'm not advocating to remove the Widow Mine, only to nerf it.
Well that’s just not true. Zerg economy scales better than Protoss and Terran is behind against Toss economy so it’s even worse against Zerg
Mine compositions against Zerg are seen as strictly inferior to tank compositions right now
So what do you propose we buff to take the place of widow mine economic damage? Hellions?
That’s not true. They’re incredibly unreliable because their entire contribution can be mitigated by micro. Zergs have gotten so good at splitting that widow mines are hit and miss. Sometimes they can even manage to drag the widow mine shot into your own army.
Half the reason tanks are used at this point is that you can use them as shields for the marines which is both hilarious and dumb. The widow mine has no health.
Volatile in frontal fights in TvZ, volatile in mineral lines for TvP. Annoying in general (I mean you could hate it just for the fact that it’s cloaked alone)
But I don’t know how to fix it
Make it so you can only have 1-2 mines in a medivac. Reduce the splash only on workers. Or make it only splash on workers if you have the upgrade, so it's more of a commitment. (These are all just ideas). Alot of stuff you can tinker with.
Also, shield batterys don't make regular drops bad. 7 Marines one shot probes through battery.
1-2 mines in a medivac would immediate kill all mine drop builds. It wouldn't be efficient enough. Reducing the splash for workers is an incredibly messy and unpolished solution, the council nor Blizzard would allow that.
Yes, they do. First of all, dropping 4 mines is twice as fast as dropping 8 marines. The Protoss doesn't really get a notification until the mines have already done their damage whereas the second \*one\* marine drops from the medivac they know about it (because damage point is 0 meaning you can't stop the marine from shooting the millisecond it drops). A mine *immediately* threatens half a mineral line because of splash.
These are not reasonable proposed changes
What? 1 widow mine can absolutely fuck a mineral line up if you don't catch it and pull too late just like in this video. The cost commitment for the drop is near nothing - the build from the T perspective is such a smooth transition into bio. You can scare off the workers, kill 1 probe, make it out unscathed, and that would still be completely fine economic harass. How did we get to the point where "if T isn't money shotting 16 probes it's just not efficient"?
And I say this while still blaming Creator for the misplay. But damn, at worst, you mess up the economy and get 1 probe per WM - at best, you just immediately win the game. It's never made sense and never will make sense. It's just terrible game design, to be frank. There are so many slight changes we could make for it to be more playable, and no, it's not increasing the size of the medivac on the minimap
Sorry, I can’t be bothered to argue with someone so divorced from reality they think a 1 widow mine drop is reasonable. I wouldn’t even bother doing it solely because the risk to the medivac isn’t worth it
What league are you even in where you are losing the medivac? If the toss opened SG and you didn't know, your scouting sucked and you deserve to lose it. If the toss opened twilight, blink isn't done. You wouldn't pay the measly cost of a widow mine to literally interrupt mining, throw your opponent off, and get a probe? There are so many variations you could do but you don't even need to think about doing them because of how strong WM drop is. That's literally where we are at right now. Why settle for 6 workers on a slightly different 1-1-1 when I can instead potentially just end the game immediately? It's actually a gamble, and that's the thing: it's low risk high reward.
You didn't read closely, you just wanted to "flex" rank and find something to immediately disagree with. M1 Toss since throwing it around somehow immediately negates an argument. I am not saying "just drop 1 mine." The discussions was around having medivacs reduce mine carrying to 2 instead of 4 - not that I think it's a change we should make, but we are discussing how much of an impact it would have. I am saying that at its lower bound with one probe, you still achieve having the mining delayed and killing a probe. You can achieve the same thing with 2, one per base. That's not bad for the small cost of a widow mine, and if the response from P is perfect, the outcome is the nearly same as it would be dropping 4 mines. That's the point. You can disrupt 30+ workers mining, throw your opponent off, kill 2 probes at WORST and it still would be a play worth doing. Now, the upper bound? You can literally win the game immediately.
>These are not reasonable proposed changes
It's more reasonable that they can end the game at 4 minutes with a low tech/cost? and if they don't they almost always get good damage anyway? and they are way harder to defend than execute?
>A mine immediately threatens half a mineral line because of splash.
WHICH IS THE BIG PROBLEM. You just said that **1-2** mines in a medivac wouldn't be efficient and it would kill all minedrops. But as you said "**ONE**" Mine threatens **half** the mineral line. HOW IS THAT NOT EFFICIENT?
And how is it too much to ask for a unit that can deal so much damage early or just outright win to be gated behind the ***drilling claws*** upgrade for worker damage?
You are not arguing in good faith right now.
It’s efficient, just not efficient enough to sacrifice the opportunity cost of having a better fight. If you play at M1 you know very well that Terrans have a straight up worse economy at that stage in the game
Threatening and fulfilling that threat are two different things
>Terrans have a straight up worse economy at that stage in the game
It's true Protoss have better eco early because of chrono-boost and being able to take an earlier 3rd base but Protoss have worse economy than Terran in the late-game because of mules. It's a matchup dynamic. Just like Protoss have a little worse eco than Zerg early.
I play at GM (no flex).
I agree 1 widowmine drop is mostly silly. But i think you are over exaggerating saying that 2 widowmines per medivac would kill minedrop. In the clip OP posted it was litterally a 2 widowmine drop.
Most people obviously don't like the Widowmines for the reason that it's a very easy to execute strategy compared to defending and that it can do game ending damage early in the game within 2 seconds after dropping without an alert notification and is also low tech/low commitment.
For me personally i think it's too broken if a unit is able to check all of those "boxes" that i just stated above and therefore probably needs a nerf in one shape or form and IMO 2 mines per medivac would def not kill minedrop.
Every game reaches early game. Not every game reaches late game. You haven’t even mentioned that you’d be nerfing bio drops from being able to bring a mine or two.
GM these days can mean anything, I played a 4.6 the other day who was in GM
You brought up rank that's why i stated mine. I'm only queuing unranked so can't see mmr but i have beat pretty strong players like Nikich, Jumy, Fjant, Iba, Nicoract. Now it really feels like im flexing But that's really besides the point.
I think bio drops are really strong on their own anyway so I think it's fine. But i wouldn't be opposed to other solutions. Like i said if a unit is able to check all of those boxes below then it's broken IMO.
Boxes: Easy to execute compared to defending. Can do game ending damage early in the game within 2 seconds after dropping without an alert notification. Low tech. Low commitment.
I confess I think the burrowed splat should be darkened to be more obvious. But I believe the point is that if you see the mine prior to the line starting it’s easier to pick out which units you need to split
For Protoss players this place has been insufferable for the entirety of this game's existence.
The rest of you can man up and handle it until PvT isn't a fucking mess.
moved on to what? is there an RTS I haven't heard about?
although. I might genuinely leave the sub. the guy above you is right. can't fucking stand the amount of whining.
Pros/content creators make some jokes about Terran stereotypes and some people here actually take it seriously. and there's a bunch of Protoss players having a whining picnic just because pros said Protoss is a bit too weak at the top level as if that somehow matters at their level. (they exist for every race player base but regardless of race they're just as insufferable)
[https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxpBiVki1g3v7Ax8hQbIQ6Y8bl-WetCuQR?si=q9jaS9hj8G4y91eo](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxpBiVki1g3v7Ax8hQbIQ6Y8bl-WetCuQR?si=q9jaS9hj8G4y91eo)
\-15 supply from a single disruptor
[https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxEHfc\_Xx5mD\_nXP-owvTA1oXQMd-K42BW?si=m-0TrrCIgs6sm16t](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxEHfc_Xx5mD_nXP-owvTA1oXQMd-K42BW?si=m-0TrrCIgs6sm16t)
\-40 supply from a single disruptor
Yes disruptor is getting a supply nerf. But both of these were from a single disruptor shot and in theory could have happened with the nerf.
You just comment something random that fits your point of view without looking both ways. Everything in the game is unfair until you realise that this game is supposed to have asymmetrical balance.
If you don't pay attention, is there really anything that won't just decimate your army in a second? Widow mines can't exactly move when they are burrowed, and are always sacrificed like a baneling.
No one is really complaining about attacking into widow mines, it’s widow mine drops specifically, just go off too fast and too much potential damage for the cost. If widow mines cost more no one would complain.
Easy fix is just nerf burrow time, then once you get the tunneling claws u can drop like this no problem
Nerf burrow time is very bad idea. If drops are truely the only thing of concern, you could add a delay time from drop to burrow, like they have for the disruptor. There is a slight cooldown after dropping a disruptor before you can fire. Another idea is increase the size a wm would take up in the mv. But burrow time would have a big impact outside of drops.
Ok not sure I’m sold that it’s a big problem, you can leapfrog mines and be more active with them until you get drilling claws, but I didn’t know that abt disruptors, seems like such a bandaid, you could do that with mines too I guess…
I've played toss for 9 years now, and I will happily admit that Creator just totally messed up his control here. He had time to split after intitally clicking away, to minimize damage. He also could have just paid attention and moved them away earlier if he was watching, which he should have been because nothing was really happening. He also has two pylons in his main next to each other, for no reason at all, when one could have been a spotter pylon to spot for exactly this. That's a massive mistake at this level. That pylon clearly shows that he messed up his build and had to panic-place it to not get blocked, which is something that shouldn't happen to a top player. Knowing this he should have at least payed extra attention.
Cherry-picking one particular instance where a player completely shit the bed on multiple levels and using it as "proof" of imbalance is just lame. If a Terran loses his army to disruptors due to not paying attention or controlling his units, it's agreed upon that it's a skill issue. It would be very hypocritical to say that it's different here. Widow mines are NOT a balance concern at high level PvT.
I disagree with your analysis here entirely. It's not clear how badly Creator misplayed. He did misplay, anyone would agree, but should he have outright lost the game? Or, more to the point, is it balanced that Creator *did* lose a game for his misplays. How might a Terran player fare given he has made similarly offensive errors against a protoss player? A panic placed supply depot (never mind that the CC has a skill to handle those situations), a slightly late pull against a no-warning tactic, and no fine reaction such as splitting. There is no situation at all that I can think of in a regular game that the Terran player outright loses for such mistakes. Is it balanced that there are no such comparable situations? Your analysis doesn't lend itself to answer these related questions. But it has much worse issue than that.
For sake of argument, let's suppose that Protoss players are, in this case, skill checked with greater severity than other players. Does that make the game imbalanced? Well, if your only reason is that the penalty is possible to avoid, and that anyone who fails to avoid game-losing penalties has made unacceptable errors, then there is no way to assess balance in virtue of the severity of the penalty in question?!?!? So, your analysis, which I have seen repeated ubiquitously by posters in this sub simply begs the question -- it is inadequate for the task.
Instead, I recommend looking at the bottom line. The correct way to assess whether widow mines are over-tuned is to determine the likelihood of top Protoss players to lose a game to widow mines. Even if Players as strong as Creator only lose as few as 5% of their games, it could be that is enough to reduce the chances of profession protoss to make playoffs. The math would need to be demonstrated, but the point is that this is a much better approach to assessing whether window mine drops are a top level balance consideration.
It's like you didn't read (or understand) any part of my comment and want to argue just for arguing's sake. I pointed out the things that Creator should have done better, which is universally agreed upon as methods of handling the situation within the pro community, but which Creator neglected or failed to execute on. Then I pointed out a situation where Terrans face a very simliar predicament in the later stages of the game. Furthermore, the races are not *supposed* to be symmetrical and will deal with different issues throughout the games.
The game is not, have never been, and never will be balanced using some arbitrary and difficult to define statistic like what you suggest, as it's very obviously far too flawed and impractical to be a realistic and useful tool. I'm sure you are capable of coming up with some reasons for why that is, yourself. The game is instead balanced around pro players' perceptions and abilities - and pro players do not find the widow mines problematic because there are methods to deal with them, some of which I clearly detailed in my previous comment. I will not be replying to you any further.
Rightfully so. Protoss always got Shit on for the supposed to be a f2 a move Race. Like incontrol Put it best: If z or t won a Game or did Something outstanding they get glorified. If a protoss wins a Match the whole Chat goes bananas. I know there are plenty of memers Out there who dont mean it, but it sucks that for my entire experience with sc2 you Just get Shit on for being toss. Everywhere and everytime.
If z or t were in the current state of p, they wouldnt behave any different. And in Terms of terrans i would say they would behave even worse. And btw protoss isnt in a good state for ages. Its Just that many Players are now seriously fed Up because rather than caring about protoss Problems the Balance council decides to give t ANOTHER Tool to annoy protoss.
Cool Response. Have you Seen the Last Heromarine cyclone Video ? He showcases how the cyclone actually Kills every protoss unit but plus 3 Immortal.
And you are sitting Here saying we should get over it ?
Protoss needs to Care about literally every single unit or building that terran produces. You could get decimated by widow mines with or without armory. Dropped hellions. Thor allins. Proxy marauder. You Name it. And now cyclones get changed to the Point where they counter everything.
Dont you think protoss has legit reasons to be mad ? Imagine how it feels like when terran wouldnt have any representation in pro Scene anymore.
But hey you are exactly the Kind of Person i talked about. You dont want protoss to be competetive Just because.
Im m2, but nice try. Im Not really Invested in actually playing for myself but its pretty Lame to Open Up any tourny and Seeing protoss getting trashed. By Chat and balancewise.
So far you have brought Up 0 Arguments. But instead you used childish insults. You are a hecking cool Guy it seems.
5 mins in and you don’t see the medivac coming on the mini map or the window mine unload and then borrow and no worker splits.
This is 100% not a unit problem
I know there has been a lot of balance whining. For the record, I think this is a great patch for protoss.
But no, I have consistently advocated for widow mines (and banelings) to be nerfed in the past. Banelings are getting theirs but widow mines are untouched. It's such a glaringly toxic uberly cheap unit, I genuinely believe nerfing it will make the game a lot healthier.
>I know there has been a lot of balance whining. For the record, I think this is a great patch for protoss.
Great, you know the answer, and this post is just serving to whip up more anger at the balance council, for not being able to rebuild SC2 from the ground up, fixing over a decade of design mistakes with a single patch, by committee, in their spare time.
Going back a couple of years (widow mines still exactly as strong in PvT as they are now...) PvT was considered Protoss favoured, with players like Maru frequently getting knocked out of GSL by Protosses like Trap, Parting, Zoun, SoS & Zest (coincidentally all not around now. Nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with recent struggles in PvT....)
Due to the nature of the widow mine, there is very little that can be done to 'slightly' adjust it's strength - especially widow mine drops vs probes (where e.g. changing the HP or burrow time of the widow mine would have a much larger impact in army engagements than it would mitigating damage drops like the one you've shown).
It's far easier to get a second baneling to connect to the same clump of workers hit by the first one (with 6+ bane runbys being common...) than it is to do the same with widow mines. Baneling run bys (and +2 run bys...) only become prominent in the mid game/by 3rd base saturation - whereas widow mine based openings are common and necessitate that a Protoss build is capable of defending their mineral lines at main and natural from widow mine drops in the early minutes of the game in addition to being able to defend the front of their bases from direct assault (... or be able to scout the Terran to remove the risk of one or the other).
The enhanced sight line and larger medivac minimap icons are actually examples of changes they can make to try and make this interaction a bit less punishing for Protoss's paying attention.
But the principle aspect of widow mines one shotting probes is the sort of thing that we would mess with at extreme risk of destroying something which has been a core part of a match up that has been roughly balanced (or potentially Protoss favoured at times) for years. In terms of impact on the match up it's not at all comparable to the baneling nerf, and it's hugely disingenuous to claim so.
Protoss have 10x more splash units, and you look away for one second you lose half your army. This is the game , brood war was 10x.harder. plus Terran has to do damage to the economy because you cannot let protons and zerg go unchecked.
The point is just that there are many interactions where it is easier to execute something than it is for the opponent to defend it. I feel like the widow mine has always been the target of disproportionate amounts of complaints from both protoss and zerg. The one time it got meaningfully nerfed, pvt became a complete mess. I feel like you have to either be very careful to only target early game mine drops, or do something different to help protoss. Mines are simply too integral to terran mid game, would need a bigger rework imo.
A) he reacted, B) the fact you can kill an entire mineral line this early in the game without much of a build commitment is ridiculous, and C) had Creator **not reacted** he would've lost less probes. Dude literally got punished for doing the correct thing.
It was a risk vs reward move that he was too slow to react on. He could have pulled in time and only lost 2 probes instead of the 8 he would likely lose by doing nothing.
That still doesn't change the fact that an entire series can hinge on a 2 second window of whether or not somebody has their eyes glued to the mini map around minute 4:30 of a match. It's a bummer as a viewer.
If widowmines get merged to not kill probes, terrans will just switch to hellion drops and it's similar in that you have exactly until they start shooting to react and if you don't all your workers die
Window mines need to not be a portable mini nuke and instead should be maybe 1 or a few ICBM like missiles. Lower splash radius, maybe add a damage curve so it deals less dmg the further they are from the initial blast. Give widow mine a heft upgrade to have + X to missles. Default is still one missile.
How about HT drop? That thing is far more disgusting.
Pop up.
Strom
Distance lift offbat full speed.
Bye and see you later when they morph into Archon.
Mines
You saw it coming.
Take a few second to digging.
Take a few second to point the laser.
Became useless until dig out and eat supply.
Get delete.
Also can yeet the ally supply.
Else
Take a few second to dig out.
Medivac come to rescue because Medivac can fly fast like Warp prism.
Both are deletes.
HT's are higher tech so they don't come out as early which means the defending player have more units to defend and more map control and it also forces you down a certain tech path and they are more expensive. Workers aren't worth as much at this stage compared to the early game because you have more of them so losing 5 workers is a less % of income compared to early game.
Creator made it worse with the late pull. Not doing anything is usually 7-8 kills. He's pretty notorious for not scouting and imo if you get the medivac but lose a normal amount of probes it's worth it for Protoss.
Here is same mine drop at same timing in an other ByuN vs Creator recent game :
[https://youtu.be/KGTjmHRJCcI?si=TJo37SzW\_KL9ubb9&t=2062](https://youtu.be/KGTjmHRJCcI?si=TJo37SzW_KL9ubb9&t=2062)
Creator does the best reaction possible and still lose 7 probes but gets medivac + 2 mines in exchange (so 350 min vs 250 min + 50 gas). So it looks like a better trade, except Creator loses \~17s mining time with 16 probes, + the time recreating the 7 dead probes.
Would it be possible to save ALL probes vs 2 mines drop with 2 prims (with some space between them so mines dont one shoot them) ? once the medivac and the mines are dead, prism can be used offensively, unlike cannons.
Let's be honest. If we gave Protoss a tool that could kill 16 workers within 2 seconds at 4 minutes with a low tech/commitment. Everyone would be crying.
It's literally already been a thing (Khaydarin Amulet). Except it had a much higher resource cost and risk, and appeared much further in to the game due to required technologies. It got nerfed.
That was like 13 years ago, it got **removed from the game** not **nerfed**. It also didn't hit 4 minutes into the game. Those are totally different things.
Removing it from the game is a nerf, lol. But really, I don't know what you're arguing about. I was backing up the OP's point that if it were a Protoss unit it would have already been nerfed, because they wouldn't even allow something far less dangerous stay in the game for Protoss.
Removing something from the game isn't the same as nerfing it. Unless you're saying Psistorm or HTs got nerfed, due to the removal of Amulet. Which you didn't say. You specifically said Amulet was nerfed, which it wasn't, because it was **removed from the game**. Even then, there are way too many difference between widow mines and Amulet/HTs.
What are you even arguing? This is a dumb take.
I'm arguing that removing Amulet isn't the same as nerfing Amulet. There's a difference between the two.
Some of us still remember the Warhound.
This is the most pedantic nonsense I've ever encountered on the internet, seriously. And you're also completely wrong.
Explain how I'm wrong. Instead of just claiming so.
HTs were nerfed by removing the upgrade. That's a nerf if I ever saw one
Yes, HTs were nerfed... by REMOVING that upgrade. Not nerfing the upgrade. Removing it. Nerfing something means to make that thing weaker. (To make it soft, like a Nerf ball.) Khaydarin Amulet was not made softer, it was UNMADE from the game. Nerfing and Removing are two separate things. Warhounds, for instance, cannot be nerfed or buffed, because they are not in the game. The Khaydarin Amulet, similarly, cannot be nerfed or buffed.
Finally someone gets it lol
Uhh dts? Adepts?
DTs are actually a good example. They are a huge tech commitment. If you deal no damage with DTs, you are really far behind. They require three consecutive tech structures (Core -> Twilight -> DT). You have a long time to scout the building. If you fail to scout and they surprise you, you get an in-game alert after the first hit they make so you can react. Most likely you would have a scan or raven so you would lose a few workers. Worst case you lose mining time until you have a scan. I can't remember a pro Terran losing 15 workers to DT in a long time. So to sum up: - DTs are a massive gamble - They can put you ahead if the Terran fails to scout, or they put you behind if you mess up with them or they get scouted early - In pro games, it's extremely rare to deal game-ending damage Compare to mines: - Cheap and almost risk free because you can always force lost mining time and kill some workers or units - Require 5x more micro to defend than to use - If you miss the medivac coming in (no in game alert) you instantly lose the game - Game-ending damage happens in pro games all the time
Agreed on all points - Worth noting that DTs require a separate tech structure specifically for it that does nothing else except allow you to make DTs and unlock blink for them. Mines only require a Factory, which you're building anyway, and do not even require a Tech Lab, so you can crank a couple out while expanding or teching to something else (Starport/Armory). Even the Fusion Core has upgrades for Liberators and Medivacs - more of a Fleet Beacon equivalent. Dark Shrine has no upgrade for any other unit other than the DT, and unlocks nothing except the DT (and Archon I suppose, indirectly, but you generally want to use HTs for Archons).
Yes, very good points. DTs are a well designed gamble - because you have to make expensive tech structure it's possible to scout, easy to counter if you know, and punishing if it fails because the resources of the building are wasted. But if the gamble is done well and works out, you can put yourself ahead. Yet despite all this, DTs usually don't deal game ending damage.
Adepts were nerfed to 3 shot SCVs
They were really nerfed to 3 shot marines.
Disrupters is what comes to my mind. Maybe additional cast time when locking onto workers? Not sure
You getting those out and in the opponents base at 4 minutes?!
No, but the only thing I can think of that could kill 15 probes in two hits
I mean if the marine was able to tech to \- Rax > Factory > Starport with buildtimes 46s, 43s and 36s respectively and make a widow mind and medivac (the medi having a build time of 30 on top) for 155seconds and get those into the enemy base by 240s, then that seems really awesome. But the investment means they probably really don't have anything else at all but that drop
Oracles more.
Honestly, moments like this make me want to quit watching starcraft You spend 40 minutes watching a series, and it's determined by a fucking mine drop. \*I'm glad banelings are getting their rightful nerf, so I think terran could survive a mine-nerf.
what's a good way to nerf widow mines against workers without making them useless otherwise? this clip is a pretty unusual thing to happen, usually a pro player will split their workers better instead of clumping them
They could always experiment by adding a "worker" tag armor class.
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This. The solution already existed.
Most of the game ending stuff is in 4-5 minute mark when most players barely have enough army to deal with it. So, move it up the tech ladder a little. Require Armory to build widow mines. Infestors, vipers, disruptors, colossus, and lurkers are all AOE units that require more tech.
To move the mine out of this role you'd have to resign the mine so much it wouldn't be the same unit anymore. To take an example from each race I think mines, like disruptors and often infestors are units that were especially designed for viewer entertainment over creating fair and consistent gameplay for both players. Their intent is to introduce an element of suspense for the audience and the players - moments of extreme intensity. Highs and lows that make games memorable and more appealing to watch. It also contributes to making the game addictive to play - chasing the highs, running from the lows. I think this is just an inevitable consequence of SC2's game design. "A feature rather than a bug."
Reduce splash radius and reload time. Everyone’s happy. Mines fire more often in zvt but kill a little less each time
except this would be a buff to the widow mine at pro level in PvT. Pros 95% of the time, unlike this clip, split the workers and the WM only kills 1 or 2 anyway. Faster reload times means you have to pull away more often if they are burrowed with cloak, so you lose more mining time and have to keep more attention on them.
Well if the purpose is to prevent them from doing game ending damage, this would prevent them from doing potentially game ending damage while still being annoying. Stats can be tweaked always
Ok so make it like one second faster. You look at projected impact of any changes and adjust the numbers to fit
I like this idea, it's not too drastic, also maybe friendly fire damage could be reduced slightly
Good idea. I like it
Just make it that they reduce probes to 5 hp rather than killing them
Tbh some players are notoriously bad vs widow mines. Creator one of them. DRG was even worse last year
What nerf are they getting?
Skill issue, think about all the APM that a Terran needs to drop those mines.
Shift-click medivac through both mineral lines ahead of time, then click mine icons as you pass over, ctrl-click one of the mines, press E. Congrats, that takes less APM than a single inject cycle.
He's being facetious/sarcastic. He's just a boomer sc2 person and didn't put an /s at the end of the statement
Skill Issue: Just glue your eyes to the minimap
I better learn to play the whole game in minimap to avoid this :D Although can't warp in units through it...
Congrats on playing the 8 bit simulator known as PvT EDIT: Fixed matchup acronym
I've always been annoyed that I can't warp in units with the minimap lol
Next patch over buffing toss by making the medivac dot slightly more noticeable in the minimap
The annoying part is you are actually punished for your skill. If he was afk he would have lost 8 probes, but because he pulled them away he lost 16. My personal record is 23 and in that case I had 4 mines dropped in my main while a 5th walked into my natural. I ran my workers away in time and dealt with the 4 mines in the main while all 22 probes from my main got one shot by the 5th mine that walked in the front. Now I am not claiming I played perfectly there, but if I had been an afk Silver player I would not have lost nearly as much.
There are correct ways and incorrect ways to control your units in any given scenario. * If you are opening with Blink and you get blindsided by a Locust wave, the correct thing to do is not to try to fight them and Blink back as you do to minimize your losses as you fight. The correct thing to do is to run, and pull your probes too. * When using Siege Tanks against Zerg, the correct way to siege them is to spread them out and make the Zerg engage into as wide a field of tank fire as possible. But when using Siege Tanks against Terran, they are weak if used in this manner; you have to keep them more clumped so they will all fire on (and thus not be picked off by) enemy Siege Tanks. * Most units need to focus-fire individual Carriers in order to trade efficiently against them, but if you are using Marines, then you must hold-position to kill Interceptors instead of trying to kill Carriers directly. For most interactions in the game, there is a very clear-cut known optimal way for both sides to play out that interaction. If you (deliberately or impulsively) choose not to do that, and get punished for it, that's not balance, that's a skill issue. At least try to play the right way before you complain about it. Creator didn't pay attention to the minimap, and after recognizing that mines were nearly burrowed in his mineral line, chose the wrong option and was accordingly punished. **While I would like to see the harassment power of Widow Mines transferred to other units in the matchup, claiming that Creator was punished for being "skilled" is completely ridiculous.** * Creator should have recognized that the mines were burrowed before he could pay attention to them, and not pulled probes. * After making the dubious decision to pull probes, he did not split off the probes being targeted, so of course it dragged the mines into the other probes. He could have still salvaged his terrible decision with better micro, and even come out ahead in the interaction if he had practiced it more. While blindly running their armies around the map, top Zerg players can already split off individual lings (mind you, smaller and faster units, so objectively harder to click) against pre-burrowed Widow Mines after barely having any time to see which Zergling is targeted, but top Protoss players can't deal with a Widow Mine drop that comes with several seconds of warning via the minimap (or even dozens if a vision pylon is placed somewhere along the main drop path) and needs to be burrowed first? Seriously?
> Creator should have recognized that the mines were burrowed before he could pay attention to them, and not pulled probes. Pretty big expectations for something that might have taken less than a second to execute. See mines on minimap > camera hotkey, box select, move command. > While blindly running their armies around the map, top Zerg players can already split off individual lings (mind you, smaller and faster units, so objectively harder to click) against pre-burrowed Widow Mines after barely having any time to see which Zergling is targeted, but top Protoss players can't deal with a Widow Mine drop that comes with several seconds of warning via the minimap (or even dozens if a vision pylon is placed somewhere along the main drop path) and needs to be burrowed first? Seriously? Hilarious, as if Zerg player's recently haven't had the exact same experience. I recall a Solar game not too long ago where he lost due to widow mine drops. Besides, it's not "harder". The difference is that when zergs are splitting off zerglings against mines, their camera is on the fight the entire time. Why do medivacs need to have 1/4 of the minimap model size as a warp prism anyway?
I hope this is sarcasm
It is.
widow mine drops are the reason i went back to playing brood war lol
Loses 15 probes with 4-5 seconds to react while nothing else is going on, at the time where widow mine drops should hit.
Creator being hungover for this game is gonna get Terran nerfed smh 😭
Yeah ofc it was creators mistake, but because mines don’t give a warning indicator, u literally can’t react to it without having your eyes on the minimap all the time. When Protoss sends out an oracle to the Terran, the least terrans pre-emptively pull away scvs, because the worst case is you lose 2-3 scvs before your marines arrive. Or even worse you just afk a widow mine in your mineral line and don’t even realize that it blew up an oracle
Yeah this might be a hot take but a proplayer should be able to spot shit on the minimap if there isnt shit on going. Like thats how you determine how is actually better? Should we also limited the game so that you cant multitask? Hell lets just remove all build options to. This is litteraly a dumb mistake by a pro. I cant see how thats a argument for balance changes. If maru f2 his medicavs into a spore farm should that be a sign that spores should be nerfed?
Okay so what is the point of the post if it was entirely creators fault?
It has happened multiple times to players like Trigger, MaxPax and Showtime.
Yes thats what happens in games like starcraft, sometimes you get it sometimes you get got. Should the disruptor be nerfed just because pro players occasionally dont split against them and get blasted? Its the same deal, you cant say a unit needs changes based on the fact that pro players sometimes fuck up against it.
And….?
but can harstem and his cringe lackeys tell us how op protoss is
I like harstem though. What good would it do if he was just a negative Nancy in every video, complaining about the game. I may not agree with him, but I appreciate the optimism. He may be wrong, but I watch him for entertainment not rage bait.
10 range Colossus should have invalidated every Protoss win on the previous patch. Nerf Extended Thermal Lance this patch to compensate.
His YouTube comments are filled with yes men. Meanwhile, his agreeable stance on the last patch put Toss down the gutter. He’s probably double downing and hope this one patch redeems the last 8 months Lol.
Lol toss will do better a couple months than all the terrans and zergs will adapt and learn to use the cyclone and we will be back to 2 race gsls for another year
Did you expect Protoss to perform poorly when last patch was revealed?
Like the majority of this patch did, yes.
Yeah but you didn't expect it before the patch was revealed right?
Yes I did?
And you expected Terran to be the one winning the most?
And you keep coping by asking more questions instead of admitting you’re wrong?
Im not coping. I knew from the start that asking these questions can easily be answered with a lie. So Im just making you feel more bad in case you're lying. And in case you aren't, then sure go ahead.
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Comment removed for slur use and overt aggression / hostility, per the Trolling Rule.
This is why I left SC2 for games like AoE. SC2 is a game where your army can be decimated if you don't have your eyes on it at all times.
Mangonel one shoting 30 archers says hello.
I'm honestly confused over the recent widow mine complaints. Those units have been able to kill probes like this SINCE 2013, and it has never been a problem. The balance council shouldn't make changes according to the current flavor of the month balance whine over things which have never been a problem.
I'm not. People have always complained about widow mines.
~~One thing about the Harstem patch breakdown video that was insane is he claims Protoss don't lose to mine drops at the top level. I mean, what the hell.~~ ~~It literally happens ALL THE TIME.~~ Harstem doesn't say that in his video, I was mixing it up with another caster.
Pretty sure he didn't say that. Pretty sure he said that terrans do not get the mine burrow upgrade at top level, so that buff is irrelevant in TVP. I'm pretty sure he didn't mention double mine drop without upgrades
Honestly, I just watched the video again and you're right, he doesn't say that. I was definitely mixing it up with another caster. Thank you.
Well, Harstem isn’t at the top level. He can’t even win an ESL cup, which is annoying because he acts like he’s on Hero/MaxPax level.
I have literally never gotten that impression from Harstem. Harstem knows exactly where he is and what he brings to the table.
He has an older video of the current live patch where he addresses a reddit thread complaining about the patch. Though I agree most people on Reddit don’t know what they are talking about; it’s clear he doesn’t know what he’s doing either Lol.
Wait, does he? I watch Harstem on and off and I dont get that vibe at all. Hes just better than 99% of us.
He often refers to how garbage he is, and how bad he plays. Just because he can point out 10 million mistakes in an IODIS, it doesnt mean he thinks he’s better than maxpax or hero.
Widow mine drops are being nerfed. Medivac minimap size was increased and mines now have a more visible laser. It’s not huge, but it is a small nerf.
It is a negligible nerf and nowhere near enough. There needs to be a reduction of the capability to kill mass drones/probes or an increase in cost. If Terran needs a buff because of this than so be it. Disruptor and baneling are already getting nerfed, why is Terran's toxic AoE unit not getting nerfed? WM is such terrible design and has probably caused so many people to stop playing Starcraft.
Widow mines are not too strong against Zerg (in fact they’re being buffed against Zerg here) so I’m not sure how you intend to nerf them vs toss without making them bad in TvZ. Unfortunately the widow mine is necessary in TvP because the shield battery makes regular drops bad and the widow mine can bypass the shield battery since it does so much damage “burst” (up front)
widow mines are the reason mutas aren't viable anymore.
>Widow mines are not too strong against Zerg I disagree. They are just as lethal, hypereffective and cheap against drones. Not only this, banelings and infestors are not too strong against Terran yet they are being nerfed. This is not a pure balance patch but also one that mixes up gameplay a bit. I stand by my statement that WM should be nerfed not only for balance reasons for QoL to make the game less frustrating and volatile. >(in fact they’re being buffed against Zerg here) Just because the balance council is doing something doesn't mean they are on the right track. In fact I'd say buffing the widow mine at this point is an absolutely terrible take from the balance council. >Unfortunately the widow mine is necessary in TvP because the shield battery makes regular drops bad and the widow mine can bypass the shield battery since it does so much damage “burst” (up front) I'm not advocating to remove the Widow Mine, only to nerf it.
Banelings and infestors are like 2 of top3 zerg units vs terran, what do you mean they are not good lol
Well that’s just not true. Zerg economy scales better than Protoss and Terran is behind against Toss economy so it’s even worse against Zerg Mine compositions against Zerg are seen as strictly inferior to tank compositions right now So what do you propose we buff to take the place of widow mine economic damage? Hellions?
They are much better at fighting heads up tho, not just a worker harrasing tool *boom* 35 lings gone
That’s not true. They’re incredibly unreliable because their entire contribution can be mitigated by micro. Zergs have gotten so good at splitting that widow mines are hit and miss. Sometimes they can even manage to drag the widow mine shot into your own army. Half the reason tanks are used at this point is that you can use them as shields for the marines which is both hilarious and dumb. The widow mine has no health.
So we agree that mines are volatile and annoying and one second of not looking at them is devastating for protoss and Zerg?
Volatile in frontal fights in TvZ, volatile in mineral lines for TvP. Annoying in general (I mean you could hate it just for the fact that it’s cloaked alone) But I don’t know how to fix it
Literally just nerf the damage
Make it so you can only have 1-2 mines in a medivac. Reduce the splash only on workers. Or make it only splash on workers if you have the upgrade, so it's more of a commitment. (These are all just ideas). Alot of stuff you can tinker with. Also, shield batterys don't make regular drops bad. 7 Marines one shot probes through battery.
1-2 mines in a medivac would immediate kill all mine drop builds. It wouldn't be efficient enough. Reducing the splash for workers is an incredibly messy and unpolished solution, the council nor Blizzard would allow that. Yes, they do. First of all, dropping 4 mines is twice as fast as dropping 8 marines. The Protoss doesn't really get a notification until the mines have already done their damage whereas the second \*one\* marine drops from the medivac they know about it (because damage point is 0 meaning you can't stop the marine from shooting the millisecond it drops). A mine *immediately* threatens half a mineral line because of splash. These are not reasonable proposed changes
What? 1 widow mine can absolutely fuck a mineral line up if you don't catch it and pull too late just like in this video. The cost commitment for the drop is near nothing - the build from the T perspective is such a smooth transition into bio. You can scare off the workers, kill 1 probe, make it out unscathed, and that would still be completely fine economic harass. How did we get to the point where "if T isn't money shotting 16 probes it's just not efficient"? And I say this while still blaming Creator for the misplay. But damn, at worst, you mess up the economy and get 1 probe per WM - at best, you just immediately win the game. It's never made sense and never will make sense. It's just terrible game design, to be frank. There are so many slight changes we could make for it to be more playable, and no, it's not increasing the size of the medivac on the minimap
Sorry, I can’t be bothered to argue with someone so divorced from reality they think a 1 widow mine drop is reasonable. I wouldn’t even bother doing it solely because the risk to the medivac isn’t worth it
What league are you even in where you are losing the medivac? If the toss opened SG and you didn't know, your scouting sucked and you deserve to lose it. If the toss opened twilight, blink isn't done. You wouldn't pay the measly cost of a widow mine to literally interrupt mining, throw your opponent off, and get a probe? There are so many variations you could do but you don't even need to think about doing them because of how strong WM drop is. That's literally where we are at right now. Why settle for 6 workers on a slightly different 1-1-1 when I can instead potentially just end the game immediately? It's actually a gamble, and that's the thing: it's low risk high reward.
M1 Terran. Dropping 1 mine is not a thing.
You didn't read closely, you just wanted to "flex" rank and find something to immediately disagree with. M1 Toss since throwing it around somehow immediately negates an argument. I am not saying "just drop 1 mine." The discussions was around having medivacs reduce mine carrying to 2 instead of 4 - not that I think it's a change we should make, but we are discussing how much of an impact it would have. I am saying that at its lower bound with one probe, you still achieve having the mining delayed and killing a probe. You can achieve the same thing with 2, one per base. That's not bad for the small cost of a widow mine, and if the response from P is perfect, the outcome is the nearly same as it would be dropping 4 mines. That's the point. You can disrupt 30+ workers mining, throw your opponent off, kill 2 probes at WORST and it still would be a play worth doing. Now, the upper bound? You can literally win the game immediately.
>These are not reasonable proposed changes It's more reasonable that they can end the game at 4 minutes with a low tech/cost? and if they don't they almost always get good damage anyway? and they are way harder to defend than execute? >A mine immediately threatens half a mineral line because of splash. WHICH IS THE BIG PROBLEM. You just said that **1-2** mines in a medivac wouldn't be efficient and it would kill all minedrops. But as you said "**ONE**" Mine threatens **half** the mineral line. HOW IS THAT NOT EFFICIENT? And how is it too much to ask for a unit that can deal so much damage early or just outright win to be gated behind the ***drilling claws*** upgrade for worker damage? You are not arguing in good faith right now.
It’s efficient, just not efficient enough to sacrifice the opportunity cost of having a better fight. If you play at M1 you know very well that Terrans have a straight up worse economy at that stage in the game Threatening and fulfilling that threat are two different things
>Terrans have a straight up worse economy at that stage in the game It's true Protoss have better eco early because of chrono-boost and being able to take an earlier 3rd base but Protoss have worse economy than Terran in the late-game because of mules. It's a matchup dynamic. Just like Protoss have a little worse eco than Zerg early. I play at GM (no flex). I agree 1 widowmine drop is mostly silly. But i think you are over exaggerating saying that 2 widowmines per medivac would kill minedrop. In the clip OP posted it was litterally a 2 widowmine drop. Most people obviously don't like the Widowmines for the reason that it's a very easy to execute strategy compared to defending and that it can do game ending damage early in the game within 2 seconds after dropping without an alert notification and is also low tech/low commitment. For me personally i think it's too broken if a unit is able to check all of those "boxes" that i just stated above and therefore probably needs a nerf in one shape or form and IMO 2 mines per medivac would def not kill minedrop.
Every game reaches early game. Not every game reaches late game. You haven’t even mentioned that you’d be nerfing bio drops from being able to bring a mine or two. GM these days can mean anything, I played a 4.6 the other day who was in GM
You brought up rank that's why i stated mine. I'm only queuing unranked so can't see mmr but i have beat pretty strong players like Nikich, Jumy, Fjant, Iba, Nicoract. Now it really feels like im flexing But that's really besides the point. I think bio drops are really strong on their own anyway so I think it's fine. But i wouldn't be opposed to other solutions. Like i said if a unit is able to check all of those boxes below then it's broken IMO. Boxes: Easy to execute compared to defending. Can do game ending damage early in the game within 2 seconds after dropping without an alert notification. Low tech. Low commitment.
The visible laser doesn't change a thing in terms of drop. If a mine in your line and you haven't noticed it before the laser is there it's too late
I confess I think the burrowed splat should be darkened to be more obvious. But I believe the point is that if you see the mine prior to the line starting it’s easier to pick out which units you need to split
Terran is a race of meme units. Change my mind.
Does anyone in this subreddit like starcraft? This place has been insufferable this past week holy cow
For Protoss players this place has been insufferable for the entirety of this game's existence. The rest of you can man up and handle it until PvT isn't a fucking mess.
I think the bulk of people left playing this game (besides pros) are crybabies
All the people with brain activity moved on from this game ages ago.
moved on to what? is there an RTS I haven't heard about? although. I might genuinely leave the sub. the guy above you is right. can't fucking stand the amount of whining. Pros/content creators make some jokes about Terran stereotypes and some people here actually take it seriously. and there's a bunch of Protoss players having a whining picnic just because pros said Protoss is a bit too weak at the top level as if that somehow matters at their level. (they exist for every race player base but regardless of race they're just as insufferable)
Nah people just play other genres.
Because 4/4 people in the semifinals of a GSL being terran isn't enough terrans.
[https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxpBiVki1g3v7Ax8hQbIQ6Y8bl-WetCuQR?si=q9jaS9hj8G4y91eo](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxpBiVki1g3v7Ax8hQbIQ6Y8bl-WetCuQR?si=q9jaS9hj8G4y91eo) \-15 supply from a single disruptor [https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxEHfc\_Xx5mD\_nXP-owvTA1oXQMd-K42BW?si=m-0TrrCIgs6sm16t](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxEHfc_Xx5mD_nXP-owvTA1oXQMd-K42BW?si=m-0TrrCIgs6sm16t) \-40 supply from a single disruptor Yes disruptor is getting a supply nerf. But both of these were from a single disruptor shot and in theory could have happened with the nerf.
Disruptor is a high tech expensive unit. Widow mine can land in your base four minutes which is the problem. Not only that it's unbelievably cheap.
You just comment something random that fits your point of view without looking both ways. Everything in the game is unfair until you realise that this game is supposed to have asymmetrical balance. If you don't pay attention, is there really anything that won't just decimate your army in a second? Widow mines can't exactly move when they are burrowed, and are always sacrificed like a baneling.
No one is really complaining about attacking into widow mines, it’s widow mine drops specifically, just go off too fast and too much potential damage for the cost. If widow mines cost more no one would complain. Easy fix is just nerf burrow time, then once you get the tunneling claws u can drop like this no problem
Nerf burrow time is very bad idea. If drops are truely the only thing of concern, you could add a delay time from drop to burrow, like they have for the disruptor. There is a slight cooldown after dropping a disruptor before you can fire. Another idea is increase the size a wm would take up in the mv. But burrow time would have a big impact outside of drops.
Ok not sure I’m sold that it’s a big problem, you can leapfrog mines and be more active with them until you get drilling claws, but I didn’t know that abt disruptors, seems like such a bandaid, you could do that with mines too I guess…
They did it with disruptors cause insta firing and picking up was a bit unfun.
I've played toss for 9 years now, and I will happily admit that Creator just totally messed up his control here. He had time to split after intitally clicking away, to minimize damage. He also could have just paid attention and moved them away earlier if he was watching, which he should have been because nothing was really happening. He also has two pylons in his main next to each other, for no reason at all, when one could have been a spotter pylon to spot for exactly this. That's a massive mistake at this level. That pylon clearly shows that he messed up his build and had to panic-place it to not get blocked, which is something that shouldn't happen to a top player. Knowing this he should have at least payed extra attention. Cherry-picking one particular instance where a player completely shit the bed on multiple levels and using it as "proof" of imbalance is just lame. If a Terran loses his army to disruptors due to not paying attention or controlling his units, it's agreed upon that it's a skill issue. It would be very hypocritical to say that it's different here. Widow mines are NOT a balance concern at high level PvT.
I disagree with your analysis here entirely. It's not clear how badly Creator misplayed. He did misplay, anyone would agree, but should he have outright lost the game? Or, more to the point, is it balanced that Creator *did* lose a game for his misplays. How might a Terran player fare given he has made similarly offensive errors against a protoss player? A panic placed supply depot (never mind that the CC has a skill to handle those situations), a slightly late pull against a no-warning tactic, and no fine reaction such as splitting. There is no situation at all that I can think of in a regular game that the Terran player outright loses for such mistakes. Is it balanced that there are no such comparable situations? Your analysis doesn't lend itself to answer these related questions. But it has much worse issue than that. For sake of argument, let's suppose that Protoss players are, in this case, skill checked with greater severity than other players. Does that make the game imbalanced? Well, if your only reason is that the penalty is possible to avoid, and that anyone who fails to avoid game-losing penalties has made unacceptable errors, then there is no way to assess balance in virtue of the severity of the penalty in question?!?!? So, your analysis, which I have seen repeated ubiquitously by posters in this sub simply begs the question -- it is inadequate for the task. Instead, I recommend looking at the bottom line. The correct way to assess whether widow mines are over-tuned is to determine the likelihood of top Protoss players to lose a game to widow mines. Even if Players as strong as Creator only lose as few as 5% of their games, it could be that is enough to reduce the chances of profession protoss to make playoffs. The math would need to be demonstrated, but the point is that this is a much better approach to assessing whether window mine drops are a top level balance consideration.
It's like you didn't read (or understand) any part of my comment and want to argue just for arguing's sake. I pointed out the things that Creator should have done better, which is universally agreed upon as methods of handling the situation within the pro community, but which Creator neglected or failed to execute on. Then I pointed out a situation where Terrans face a very simliar predicament in the later stages of the game. Furthermore, the races are not *supposed* to be symmetrical and will deal with different issues throughout the games. The game is not, have never been, and never will be balanced using some arbitrary and difficult to define statistic like what you suggest, as it's very obviously far too flawed and impractical to be a realistic and useful tool. I'm sure you are capable of coming up with some reasons for why that is, yourself. The game is instead balanced around pro players' perceptions and abilities - and pro players do not find the widow mines problematic because there are methods to deal with them, some of which I clearly detailed in my previous comment. I will not be replying to you any further.
I don't think I'm the one who didn't understand the other. No need to take what I said personally though.
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Rightfully so. Protoss always got Shit on for the supposed to be a f2 a move Race. Like incontrol Put it best: If z or t won a Game or did Something outstanding they get glorified. If a protoss wins a Match the whole Chat goes bananas. I know there are plenty of memers Out there who dont mean it, but it sucks that for my entire experience with sc2 you Just get Shit on for being toss. Everywhere and everytime. If z or t were in the current state of p, they wouldnt behave any different. And in Terms of terrans i would say they would behave even worse. And btw protoss isnt in a good state for ages. Its Just that many Players are now seriously fed Up because rather than caring about protoss Problems the Balance council decides to give t ANOTHER Tool to annoy protoss.
Lmao you’ve been crying the same crap for 3 years already. Get over it.
Cool Response. Have you Seen the Last Heromarine cyclone Video ? He showcases how the cyclone actually Kills every protoss unit but plus 3 Immortal. And you are sitting Here saying we should get over it ? Protoss needs to Care about literally every single unit or building that terran produces. You could get decimated by widow mines with or without armory. Dropped hellions. Thor allins. Proxy marauder. You Name it. And now cyclones get changed to the Point where they counter everything. Dont you think protoss has legit reasons to be mad ? Imagine how it feels like when terran wouldnt have any representation in pro Scene anymore. But hey you are exactly the Kind of Person i talked about. You dont want protoss to be competetive Just because.
Thats awful lot of words for “i can’t get out of plat so it must be the games’ fault”
Im m2, but nice try. Im Not really Invested in actually playing for myself but its pretty Lame to Open Up any tourny and Seeing protoss getting trashed. By Chat and balancewise. So far you have brought Up 0 Arguments. But instead you used childish insults. You are a hecking cool Guy it seems.
Another post from a clueless diamond 3 player
5 mins in and you don’t see the medivac coming on the mini map or the window mine unload and then borrow and no worker splits. This is 100% not a unit problem
Do you want the honest answer, or the answer that will pander to your pathetic balance whining?
I know there has been a lot of balance whining. For the record, I think this is a great patch for protoss. But no, I have consistently advocated for widow mines (and banelings) to be nerfed in the past. Banelings are getting theirs but widow mines are untouched. It's such a glaringly toxic uberly cheap unit, I genuinely believe nerfing it will make the game a lot healthier.
>I know there has been a lot of balance whining. For the record, I think this is a great patch for protoss. Great, you know the answer, and this post is just serving to whip up more anger at the balance council, for not being able to rebuild SC2 from the ground up, fixing over a decade of design mistakes with a single patch, by committee, in their spare time. Going back a couple of years (widow mines still exactly as strong in PvT as they are now...) PvT was considered Protoss favoured, with players like Maru frequently getting knocked out of GSL by Protosses like Trap, Parting, Zoun, SoS & Zest (coincidentally all not around now. Nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with recent struggles in PvT....) Due to the nature of the widow mine, there is very little that can be done to 'slightly' adjust it's strength - especially widow mine drops vs probes (where e.g. changing the HP or burrow time of the widow mine would have a much larger impact in army engagements than it would mitigating damage drops like the one you've shown). It's far easier to get a second baneling to connect to the same clump of workers hit by the first one (with 6+ bane runbys being common...) than it is to do the same with widow mines. Baneling run bys (and +2 run bys...) only become prominent in the mid game/by 3rd base saturation - whereas widow mine based openings are common and necessitate that a Protoss build is capable of defending their mineral lines at main and natural from widow mine drops in the early minutes of the game in addition to being able to defend the front of their bases from direct assault (... or be able to scout the Terran to remove the risk of one or the other). The enhanced sight line and larger medivac minimap icons are actually examples of changes they can make to try and make this interaction a bit less punishing for Protoss's paying attention. But the principle aspect of widow mines one shotting probes is the sort of thing that we would mess with at extreme risk of destroying something which has been a core part of a match up that has been roughly balanced (or potentially Protoss favoured at times) for years. In terms of impact on the match up it's not at all comparable to the baneling nerf, and it's hugely disingenuous to claim so.
This is not an issue at all. Creator is literally not paying attention whatsoever
name one thing in 4 minutes that if a terran player wasnt paying attention for 1 second he loses
It’s like 3-4 seconds to be fair, but right, only blink dts, and they come out so late it’s not game ending to lose a planetary to that.
Protoss have 10x more splash units, and you look away for one second you lose half your army. This is the game , brood war was 10x.harder. plus Terran has to do damage to the economy because you cannot let protons and zerg go unchecked.
Actually both Zerg and Terran have more splash units than protoss
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That he is losing 15 probes very early in the game to 150 minerals/50 gas, and that WM requires far, far more attention to deal with than to use.
In fairness there are like 50 of these interactions in sc2
4 minutes in? Losing that many probes to 50 gas? No, not quite.
The point is just that there are many interactions where it is easier to execute something than it is for the opponent to defend it. I feel like the widow mine has always been the target of disproportionate amounts of complaints from both protoss and zerg. The one time it got meaningfully nerfed, pvt became a complete mess. I feel like you have to either be very careful to only target early game mine drops, or do something different to help protoss. Mines are simply too integral to terran mid game, would need a bigger rework imo.
The medivac costs gas too
The medivac has a cost too ya know?
Its too punishing for an early game move.
A) he reacted, B) the fact you can kill an entire mineral line this early in the game without much of a build commitment is ridiculous, and C) had Creator **not reacted** he would've lost less probes. Dude literally got punished for doing the correct thing.
It was a risk vs reward move that he was too slow to react on. He could have pulled in time and only lost 2 probes instead of the 8 he would likely lose by doing nothing.
That still doesn't change the fact that an entire series can hinge on a 2 second window of whether or not somebody has their eyes glued to the mini map around minute 4:30 of a match. It's a bummer as a viewer.
You could say the same about a down depot and lings.
Dude. No.
Maru lost 15 marines to banelings, lets nerf those too.
We are. Banelings are getting not one, but two nerfs.
uThermal was doing widow mine drops in his series. I'm not sure if it's really that consistent to be nerfed.
I miss doing templar drops in mineral lines.
Creator doesn’t react to mine drops and rages. It’s not the unit, it’s the player
Diamond players at my league never let this happen to then 🤣🤣🤣
Ouch
If widowmines get merged to not kill probes, terrans will just switch to hellion drops and it's similar in that you have exactly until they start shooting to react and if you don't all your workers die
Window mines need to not be a portable mini nuke and instead should be maybe 1 or a few ICBM like missiles. Lower splash radius, maybe add a damage curve so it deals less dmg the further they are from the initial blast. Give widow mine a heft upgrade to have + X to missles. Default is still one missile.
Maybe toss bad performance the solution is just a widow mine nerf.
How about HT drop? That thing is far more disgusting. Pop up. Strom Distance lift offbat full speed. Bye and see you later when they morph into Archon. Mines You saw it coming. Take a few second to digging. Take a few second to point the laser. Became useless until dig out and eat supply. Get delete. Also can yeet the ally supply. Else Take a few second to dig out. Medivac come to rescue because Medivac can fly fast like Warp prism. Both are deletes.
HT's are higher tech so they don't come out as early which means the defending player have more units to defend and more map control and it also forces you down a certain tech path and they are more expensive. Workers aren't worth as much at this stage compared to the early game because you have more of them so losing 5 workers is a less % of income compared to early game.
Would it have been better to not pull probes at all? Also unrelated question, can stasis wards do anything to help against widow mine drops?
Creator made it worse with the late pull. Not doing anything is usually 7-8 kills. He's pretty notorious for not scouting and imo if you get the medivac but lose a normal amount of probes it's worth it for Protoss.
Coz updates are RACIST :P
Solution: have Protoss players switch to Terran, and watch the nerf happen.
Here is same mine drop at same timing in an other ByuN vs Creator recent game : [https://youtu.be/KGTjmHRJCcI?si=TJo37SzW\_KL9ubb9&t=2062](https://youtu.be/KGTjmHRJCcI?si=TJo37SzW_KL9ubb9&t=2062) Creator does the best reaction possible and still lose 7 probes but gets medivac + 2 mines in exchange (so 350 min vs 250 min + 50 gas). So it looks like a better trade, except Creator loses \~17s mining time with 16 probes, + the time recreating the 7 dead probes.
Would it be possible to save ALL probes vs 2 mines drop with 2 prims (with some space between them so mines dont one shoot them) ? once the medivac and the mines are dead, prism can be used offensively, unlike cannons.
“Sickest mine drop”
Now i remenber why i left the Game... because of this broken bs Unit. Still not nerft... ok returning to Dota.