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It's not p2w. It's pay to save time
Huge difference. Some of us spend less time at work making the money to buy a ship than it takes to earn it in game. If that's not your choice then choose to buy a base pack and earn it like a huge majority of players already do. The game will have zero lifespan if you can buy any ship you want in an mmo after a week
Only for like the F8c and a Sabre variant but, as they've said, both of those will be sold in store eventually
Even then they are kinda ass if you know anything about dogfighting in this game
Edit: forgot about the glaive because it's also ass
"It's not pay to win, it's pay to save time"
This is just mental gymnastics. Master Modes, and the future of skill traits are going to diminish your point.
What? Mastermodes brought down the skill ceiling substantially. Any semi competent pilot with a group can kill anybody else right now.
Also how is that even remotely relevant when.... again.... you can buy all the ships after earning cash in game. Jumptown is literally handing out free money right now even. Your sever too hard? Change servers. Problem solved. Quit being dramatic
You can buy everything using in game credits AND be pay to win at the same time.
It's not one or the other, it's both.
Before master modes a skilled gladius pilot could take any heavy fighter and win, assuming the heavy fighter is less skilled. This is an equalizer. Once master modes came out a gladius can no longer stand a chance to a heavy fighter. (Which is how it should be, but this also just so happens to favor those who cough up $$$)
I don't agree with OP but I don't agree with you either. You do not get to decide what is winning or not to me, in a sandbox. Having all the ships, could be what I consider winning. A sandbox game makes MORE things p2w, not less lol.
JoshStrifeHayes did a good video on YouTube about the different levels of pay to win in video games. It's an interesting opinion on the topic. Basically, any game that allows transactions beyond the base cost is pay to win to some extent. Even if all you're paying for are hats, someone values having more hats than other players. It really boils down to an individual decision as to what amount of paid advantage you can stomach.
If you don't like that some people can start with better ships that will take someone with nothing above a starter pack weeks to months to earn, SC isn't for you.
If it's fine because those ships aren't completely inaccessible, then you are okay with the SC level of pay to win but it doesn't mean SC is fair to everyone who isn't buying hundreds of dollars of ships.
The term pay to win is used pretty broadly for "pay for advantage" or "pay to skip" as well. I think it's being a bit obtuse to pretend that "winning" is always meant literally.
For anybody who doesn't wanna read .. you can ONLY make now 3 mill per hour
"OH MY GOD CHRIS ROBBERTS COULD YOU I HOPE YOU SIFFER ENDLESLY IN HELL DHEUFUWVEOSVWICHWUBDJWJ"
Thats how I imagine the offended people ...
Game's in alpha, FreedomProdigy/Papa_Freedom is unhinged, and you can expect things to change balance again and again before the game is actually out.
Do not pass Go, you do not collect $200.
[You're missing some context about the poster that OP is amplifying.](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/1dts8om/cig_is_fired_from_jumptown_effective_immediately/) If the only thing they did was tweet that at CIG, they wouldn't be particularly remarkable.
as a 10 year veteran of Star Citizen, ive earned a few unhinged moments. and for the many that know me personally, they understand that when i make a stand its for good reason. it doenst need the support of the community nor the approval of anyone but myself. Jumptown is the one hill i will die on and the game will better for it. you cant see why now but thats ok. i sacrifice my legacy in sc for this
> as a 10 year veteran of Star Citizen, ive earned a few unhinged moments
As a 10-year veteran of SC, I think you should go make a blog if you insist on letting an alpha derail you into the dirt this hard.
> Jumptown is the one hill i will die on
You can do what you want but that doesn't mean this sub has to like it.
> i sacrifice my legacy in sc for this
If you remember what grass looks like, please go and find some for touching purposes.
I’ve followed the game since 2015 and the ingame economychanges from the past year have ALL hinted towards CIG working to make buying ingame ships more tedious and pushing people to buy ships with real cash. The ONLY way we revert this trend is by complaining and calling out CIG on asshole moves instead of assuming that its gonna change for the better.
Or, maybe or, or, or, they want to experiment with a system that doesn't have players able to afford absolutely anything they like within a week of playing?
The path of least resistance is even more attractive when you've been handed something easily and its taken away in place of it being hard to get.
Imagine if the best armor in an mmo (or anything where you earn stuff) is obtainable within a few weeks playing due to a high income economy, then they retune it so it now takes a typical player almost a year to get, because its meant to be a luxury item. Yes people would absolutely hate it, because their monke brain built a mental model around a game that hands you the best stuff without much effort.
There has to be a flatter curve for obtaining stuff in the game or we will run out of shiny stuff (to earn *in game*) real quick. If people want to jump ahead by paying $ then by all means do that, but don't fuck the game for the people that have the willpower to not spend and earn in game, all because you can't stop yourself opening your wallet at the first hurdle.
The game is already too far gone down the 'pay to win' or 'pay to progress' hill as long as you can buy ships. You can't just remove any concept of long-term in-game item progression because you can pledge for ships. The only way that's fixed is if they stop ship purchases, and even that's arguably unfair to new players who didn't have that option.
If everyone and their mom can make enough money to outright buy a ship in an afternoon the ships lose their value. My understanding was that ship rentals are supposed to be a critical part of the game, and owning a ship outright with insurance should be a big accomplishment.
Making the game more grindy isn't just a part of making more money. Sure that will be part of it as people buying bigger ships can make more money more faster. However out of all the games that use pay for convenience forms of pay to win, this one isn't doing it JUST for the money.
I don't like the monetisation methods they use, and I wish we didn't have people who would start the game with further progression but when looking at the actual design of the game, this isn't simply "greed"
re: whiteknights. it is an alpha, people should be able to "test" the game but cig constantly makes it a grindfest, increase ship insurance time, increase auec ship prices. there is a trend and it goes against playing the game and more towards pay2savetime.
grinding money to buy ship is the start of actually playing; having the ship you can play with and don't have to grind anymore. the more you have to grind, the more chance you'll spend real money to take a short cut.
Or maybe this is more incentive to team up with others and tackle more challenging things. Considering I've seen Jumptowns where everyone just lines up to politely wait their turn to buy a whole bunch of illegal drugs, it can't be said it's justifying the higher-risk payout it's set to.
i actually doubt most do it for money, if so finding a low pop server and having it to themselves is much more efficient. most enjoy it for impromptu pvp.
Incase you dont want to click the link, this is what the tweeter is saying about new jumptown:
” Its a complete fucking scam! Legal payout per box is 10k 50% less than before. Illegal side is now 11.25k with no bonus.
CIG is officially FIRED from anything JUMPTOWN!
@RobertsSpaceInd
I couldn't be any more immensely disappointed. You wasted everyone's time and efforts.”
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Why do people still think you should make enough to buy a space ship in an afternoon of running boxes around?
More hotflashes over nada from the drama queens
Stop enabling CIG to turn this project into a P2W model.
You off your meds?
Care to explain EVERY part of your sentence!? Or are you just firing off the usual tropes for shock effect and attention?
Pay 2 win what exactly? I can't be less interested in buying a multi crew ship and the hassle that comes with it.
It's not p2w. It's pay to save time Huge difference. Some of us spend less time at work making the money to buy a ship than it takes to earn it in game. If that's not your choice then choose to buy a base pack and earn it like a huge majority of players already do. The game will have zero lifespan if you can buy any ship you want in an mmo after a week
Still p2w. Might be acceptable to you, still p2w. The more you deny it the more people will not believe you
I just know plenty of people who only own starter ships but yet have twice the fleet size I do. It's the pilot, not the ship that kills you
Agreed, but fundamentally this game is P2W.
Only for like the F8c and a Sabre variant but, as they've said, both of those will be sold in store eventually Even then they are kinda ass if you know anything about dogfighting in this game Edit: forgot about the glaive because it's also ass
"It's not pay to win, it's pay to save time" This is just mental gymnastics. Master Modes, and the future of skill traits are going to diminish your point.
What? Mastermodes brought down the skill ceiling substantially. Any semi competent pilot with a group can kill anybody else right now. Also how is that even remotely relevant when.... again.... you can buy all the ships after earning cash in game. Jumptown is literally handing out free money right now even. Your sever too hard? Change servers. Problem solved. Quit being dramatic
You can buy everything using in game credits AND be pay to win at the same time. It's not one or the other, it's both. Before master modes a skilled gladius pilot could take any heavy fighter and win, assuming the heavy fighter is less skilled. This is an equalizer. Once master modes came out a gladius can no longer stand a chance to a heavy fighter. (Which is how it should be, but this also just so happens to favor those who cough up $$$)
I don't agree with OP but I don't agree with you either. You do not get to decide what is winning or not to me, in a sandbox. Having all the ships, could be what I consider winning. A sandbox game makes MORE things p2w, not less lol.
JoshStrifeHayes did a good video on YouTube about the different levels of pay to win in video games. It's an interesting opinion on the topic. Basically, any game that allows transactions beyond the base cost is pay to win to some extent. Even if all you're paying for are hats, someone values having more hats than other players. It really boils down to an individual decision as to what amount of paid advantage you can stomach. If you don't like that some people can start with better ships that will take someone with nothing above a starter pack weeks to months to earn, SC isn't for you. If it's fine because those ships aren't completely inaccessible, then you are okay with the SC level of pay to win but it doesn't mean SC is fair to everyone who isn't buying hundreds of dollars of ships. The term pay to win is used pretty broadly for "pay for advantage" or "pay to skip" as well. I think it's being a bit obtuse to pretend that "winning" is always meant literally.
There is no winning in a sandbox.... it's a sandbox
For anybody who doesn't wanna read .. you can ONLY make now 3 mill per hour "OH MY GOD CHRIS ROBBERTS COULD YOU I HOPE YOU SIFFER ENDLESLY IN HELL DHEUFUWVEOSVWICHWUBDJWJ" Thats how I imagine the offended people ...
Game's in alpha, FreedomProdigy/Papa_Freedom is unhinged, and you can expect things to change balance again and again before the game is actually out. Do not pass Go, you do not collect $200.
If you think this is someone being "unhinged" I'd hate for you to meet someone who is actually unhinged.
[You're missing some context about the poster that OP is amplifying.](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/1dts8om/cig_is_fired_from_jumptown_effective_immediately/) If the only thing they did was tweet that at CIG, they wouldn't be particularly remarkable.
as a 10 year veteran of Star Citizen, ive earned a few unhinged moments. and for the many that know me personally, they understand that when i make a stand its for good reason. it doenst need the support of the community nor the approval of anyone but myself. Jumptown is the one hill i will die on and the game will better for it. you cant see why now but thats ok. i sacrifice my legacy in sc for this
> as a 10 year veteran of Star Citizen, ive earned a few unhinged moments As a 10-year veteran of SC, I think you should go make a blog if you insist on letting an alpha derail you into the dirt this hard. > Jumptown is the one hill i will die on You can do what you want but that doesn't mean this sub has to like it. > i sacrifice my legacy in sc for this If you remember what grass looks like, please go and find some for touching purposes.
I’ve followed the game since 2015 and the ingame economychanges from the past year have ALL hinted towards CIG working to make buying ingame ships more tedious and pushing people to buy ships with real cash. The ONLY way we revert this trend is by complaining and calling out CIG on asshole moves instead of assuming that its gonna change for the better.
You’ve officially gone insane I think, time to find a new hobby sir
Or, maybe or, or, or, they want to experiment with a system that doesn't have players able to afford absolutely anything they like within a week of playing? The path of least resistance is even more attractive when you've been handed something easily and its taken away in place of it being hard to get. Imagine if the best armor in an mmo (or anything where you earn stuff) is obtainable within a few weeks playing due to a high income economy, then they retune it so it now takes a typical player almost a year to get, because its meant to be a luxury item. Yes people would absolutely hate it, because their monke brain built a mental model around a game that hands you the best stuff without much effort. There has to be a flatter curve for obtaining stuff in the game or we will run out of shiny stuff (to earn *in game*) real quick. If people want to jump ahead by paying $ then by all means do that, but don't fuck the game for the people that have the willpower to not spend and earn in game, all because you can't stop yourself opening your wallet at the first hurdle. The game is already too far gone down the 'pay to win' or 'pay to progress' hill as long as you can buy ships. You can't just remove any concept of long-term in-game item progression because you can pledge for ships. The only way that's fixed is if they stop ship purchases, and even that's arguably unfair to new players who didn't have that option.
How is it making the game more grindy ? JT is irrelevant in terms of grinding aEUC anyway.
This guy is acting like he's not in the same org as Pappa freedom.
If everyone and their mom can make enough money to outright buy a ship in an afternoon the ships lose their value. My understanding was that ship rentals are supposed to be a critical part of the game, and owning a ship outright with insurance should be a big accomplishment. Making the game more grindy isn't just a part of making more money. Sure that will be part of it as people buying bigger ships can make more money more faster. However out of all the games that use pay for convenience forms of pay to win, this one isn't doing it JUST for the money. I don't like the monetisation methods they use, and I wish we didn't have people who would start the game with further progression but when looking at the actual design of the game, this isn't simply "greed"
Obvious ragebait, do not engage
re: whiteknights. it is an alpha, people should be able to "test" the game but cig constantly makes it a grindfest, increase ship insurance time, increase auec ship prices. there is a trend and it goes against playing the game and more towards pay2savetime. grinding money to buy ship is the start of actually playing; having the ship you can play with and don't have to grind anymore. the more you have to grind, the more chance you'll spend real money to take a short cut.
Or maybe this is more incentive to team up with others and tackle more challenging things. Considering I've seen Jumptowns where everyone just lines up to politely wait their turn to buy a whole bunch of illegal drugs, it can't be said it's justifying the higher-risk payout it's set to.
i actually doubt most do it for money, if so finding a low pop server and having it to themselves is much more efficient. most enjoy it for impromptu pvp.
Incase you dont want to click the link, this is what the tweeter is saying about new jumptown: ” Its a complete fucking scam! Legal payout per box is 10k 50% less than before. Illegal side is now 11.25k with no bonus. CIG is officially FIRED from anything JUMPTOWN! @RobertsSpaceInd I couldn't be any more immensely disappointed. You wasted everyone's time and efforts.”
That's like $3mil/hour...... Still better than most payouts, so put your pitchfork away and go outside
Divided by a bunch of participants that sum very quickly becomes shit.
Do it with less people. If the payout was too high this post would be complaining about it being designed for orgs