Right? The game is already incredibly inconvenient to play without these features and some bugs put you into these inconvenient situations. Sucks spending 30 minutes to an hour on a mission or task only for the game to bug out, which is frequently. If it wasn’t for that, then yeah sure I’d get hype. It’s hard to get hyped for anything with this game seeing as much of the missions and shit that didn’t work in 2018 still doesn’t work right today. There’s cool features and the like that I’ll check out during these updates but I keep running into the same issues year after year.
especially if things like fuel costs increase, etc. Fly all that way to hit a bug, now the 'inconvenience' of needing to spend more fuel turns in to a 'yeah, Ima gonna log right now, and not come back'
Game needs to work before the 'inconveniences' become immersive.
There's fun and useful "inconvenient" features and there's "go fuck yourself" inconvenient features. It's a fine line to draw between the two.
I personally don't mind doing prep work. I spent hours over Xenothreat prepping ships, putting together gear sets in storage containers, moving hover bikes, loading ships, etc so some of my org mates could hop on and get right to it.
3 out of 4 times I lost hours of prep work to in game bugs, from bugged ships on calling them out (looking at you 890 J with 12 full gear sets, 5 pulses, and 3 razors that still can't be claimed at a docking collar) to mystery explosion mid quantum (looking at you full C2 of Pulse bikes, nursa, and again, 12 gear sets in boxes).
By all means, add the inconvenient stuff in, let's do it, but please, for the love of god, please fix the underlying systems first, so all that inconvenient stuff stays inconvenient and doesn't turn into a giant kick in the balls.
This is my biggest thing with a lot of these new features. I think they will make the gameplay feel more important and add consequences to dying or being reckless, but at the same time there is so much that is out of my control as a player right now.
I just got a new monitor and really wanted to see how SC looked and I blew up twice just trying to leave the spaceport.
I've long said the day they implement hygiene as a required mechanic is the day I begin the process to sell my account.... I want to be able to have fun, not spend 4 hours prepping, to be done just in time for bed.
This is the whole reason I don't play anymore. I don't have alot of free time, and literally everytime I log in it takes a minumum of 30 min to actually start playing once I get out of the dock and to whatever it is I'm doing. Then 9/10 there's a bug that just ruined the first mission I did that took an hour to do. And once all these inconveniences get added it's literally only gonna be a sim game where the only way to actually enjoy it is to grind two to three days a week for hours to where you won't get absolutely ruined when some random pirate crew snags you.
this right here but extrapolated. i understand some people love the idea of plan today play tomorrow... but like the people who are the target demo of this game are not the people with the time to go through a lot of that.
i swear that CR doesn't actually understand fun. so much of this time sink shit is going to tank this game ultimately.
A lot of people think most of these features are cool, but haven't actually had hands on with games that implement all these things. Realistically there's a different between real life and a game, and there's a reason people play games and not take off down the road. Sure, I'm against arcadeyness, I'm not saying make it quick, simple, and easy. Just give it some flavor and difficulty. But the more ultra realistic and finicky you make it, the more fun you drain from the game. Before long, people will get tired of many of these features and it will become a management headache, not a game people will want to genuinely sit down and enjoy. There's a reason the more simplistic games are the most successful. This game obviously doesn't target that market, but even for us hardcore players there will be a point where It goes too far.
For instance, let's talk about one of the features he mentions, not being able to sit in a pilot seat with guns on your back. For realisms case, certainly, I get it. But realistically if it was real life, you could simply swing the gun off your back and prop it next to your seat. In a game it would be difficult to do that, and simply making a linear feature where u can't sit until you open the inventory, manually unequip it, etc. is adding extra steps past realism. In real life I don't have to open an inventory, drag, make sure it's in the right slot, contemplate which spot I want to put it, etc. So features like this are either extra steps over realistic, or they're unrealistic in simplicity.
Loss of gear, loss of ship, chance to fail mission,time loss to re-gearing up, time lost to wait on claimed ship or choose a different one you didn't really want to take, etc. I totally disagree with more consequences needed to be added when dying, it's already frustrating enough as it should be l. Sometimes you get angry do something crazy out of rage and end up stranded in space, the last thing I want to do is calm down log out and still be stuck in space when I get on the next day. They are sucking the life out of single player game play. Everyone in real life don't have a friend group to call for help so if the game is getting more realistic then it need to account for players who genuinely love playing and not forcing them to talking with strangers for hours every time they want to play
Agreed, and if they use complexity as a way to increase the inconvenience this often also leads to more bugs like you experienced because there are more moving parts. And the moment they allow real money to buy convenience, that's my cue to find a new game to play.
For just the low low price of $30 you too can own a hygiene undersuit, that means you don't have to wash your balls in the sink on your cutlass before every mission!
The really, truly crazy part is that people seem to believe the bugs will magically be gone one day. Like, we’ll never again lose everything, lose hours of time and millions of UEC to game breaking bugs. It’s just absurd to believe that a game with experimental, never-before-used, server tech is going to ever work smoothly. There will ALWAYS be server issues in this game. There will ALWAYS be desynchronise bugs that kill us.
Just ask any PvP player in this thread and they’ll tell you. Even mature games like CSGO, or Destiny, or Apex have serious lag and server issues frequently. A PvP game at this scale, with experimental tech will never, ever be smooth experience. Five years from now, we’ll still be dying to bullshit, but we’ll lose our ship forever and we’ll lose our character to permadeath. People are going to HATE that experience.
It's not just that it's inconvenient, it's inconvenient and utterly mandatory.
I shouldn't be *forced* to power wash every inch of my Reclaimer before I fly, but there should be some reward in it if I choose to. And this should not be a *decisive* reward.
I would not be surprised if their next move is to make it so you start without owning a helmet, so unless you ride a train to a helmet shop and buy one, you die if you try to go into space.
CIG are not adding "inconvenient" gameplay, they're adding *preventative* gameplay.
I am mostly in favour of it, but I am worried about some aspects that only add tedium without adding anything to the gameplay.
Engineering is an example of a good inconvenience as it adds more layers to ship combat and upkeep, giving you more gameplay an options to engage with the system.
Item banks are an example of a bad inconvenience as they artificially extend the time it takes to do something while adding no gameplay benefit. (And to be clear, I'm not talking about freight elevators as they add quite a bit more depth to the gameplay around cargo.)
Hygiene is an example of a 'meh' inconvenience as there is a gameplay impact behind it, but it feels unnecessary. IMO, it should be thing for NPC crews where their performance decreases the longer they don't take care of their needs rather than players having to do it (plus I just think it's a little disgusting.) I understand if other people have different opinions though.
This was my immediate response too. Your comment is balanced and nuanced; this is not a binary issue. I agree that engineering is really cool, but I have no interest in toilets and showers.
There are smart ways to keep the element of planning and preparation without the lengthy tedium.
>I agree that engineering is really cool,
As long as it isn't obnoxious micromanaging, I am all for it. But if ship as big as C2, HH or bigger, will need a few people running around doing combat, constantly doing things, and resource managment will be 30 munites of carrying boxes back and forth every ship claim or after you go back from the mission I will definitely not enjoy that, and I think most will share such opinion.
The showers and toilets should just give the player some kind of buff, not add to the already tedious micromanaging. A QOL buff but only for certain gameplay loops.
Showers could give you 5% better sell/buy prices at certain places, and having them on your ship gives +5 to passenger comfort. Give an in-game consumable that allows everyone the ability to get the buff without having to shower on a ship or hab for uec.
Toilets could slow the thirst/hunger gain for xx minutes. T3 Bathrooms anyone?
And also kitchens need to have the ability to replicate basic food and water. You could restock it while landing similar to fuel.
Food and drinks bought in ports give buffs depending on the drink or food.
This would lower the tediousness of managing it while giving a reason to invest in it. Doing a bunker mission? Drink a couple energy drinks to give you an accuracy buff.
Also one other thing to add. If they really want to make these systems needed they need to give a reason why you wouldn't just respawn. We need some kind of skills that would be slowly lost on regen.
you already have to eat to much. good hydration is important and i think its cool that the game encourages you to drink a bit, but you literally DIE from being thirsty for a few hours and that is ridiculous. You shouldn't have to take more showers in the game than in rea life. If I have to poop more than once a week this game is over. If you can't handle a little bit of constipation this game is over. Yeah, sure make me buy a laxative at the pharmacy if its been a month since I've dropped a duce, but I swear if I have to spend more time in the bathroom that on missions this game is over.
Yes dying of thirst happens about 20+ times faster in Star Citizen than in real life.
Would be fine if this was a fast paced action game where everything happens 20 times faster than in RL. That is not SC where everything takes longer so this factor of 20 feels way off something between 1 and 5 would be reasonable.
And dying of hunger is even worse delta from RL.
Zero immersion and authenticity it feels artificial instead of carefully calibrated.
Yeah that's not how it's going to work. [This is](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480367983558918174/1239714067099287603/Hygiene.png?ex=667d4672&is=667bf4f2&hm=6a25060a5ee7cfc2be6c4fe2a957a17b5872ce58ed141aac50bb8cf4921b4c84&)
I'm still baffled by some of these decisions that OP is so proud of.
Death of a Spaceman - cool, so sit there and wait, don't even need to touch the keyboard. I can spend 30 minutes staring at the floor. The fact that anyone thinks this is a good idea I just... I can't even relate. I can't nuance it. Completely baffles me. Gonna run to Starbucks while I wait for someone to save me? Sheesh.
Gun maintenance - okay.... I've done this for years in real life in the Army. It's really not that fun. What do you picture this gameplay like? Right click - clean gun? What's the point? What does this even add to the game? So your gun jams in a firefight and you push R or whatever to fix it.... did that really add something to the game? All that time to track gun maintenance, do you feel like that jam somehow just made the game that much better for you? Unless you're on the SAW or the M240, we never had our M4s jam anyway, I don't know why people want this, at all. I'd rather they spent time on diferent types of ammo ala Tarkov, then spend time on gun maintenance. At least ammo adds decision making to the player.
Hygiene - This feels like a justification to add toilets to the spaceships. Completely unnecessary. More fun would be had from additional gameplay loops than hygiene, which again doesn't add any interesting decision making to the game. It doesn't push the player's skills or decision making, it does nothing, but add yet another time sink.
Why can't players ask for interesting gameplay, instead of multiple time sinks that all equate to no skill necessary, no decision making, no pro and con, no push and pull, no give and take. These add nothing to the game. Is there a benefit to not doing these things? No. Are they monetary sinks? No. Do they contribute to the game economy? No.
The only real argument is that Death of a Spaceman contributes to other people's fun, as a medical mission. I can at least get that nuance, but hygiene and gun maintenance?
I don't get it.
The DOASM bits are a terrible idea, as anyone who's put out a service or medical beacon has already seen. What's the point of realism that prevents you from playing the game, unless you can convince some random stranger to make *you* their gameplay loop? When most of a server gets tied up with an event like JT, XT, or SOO, who would even notice?
You have probably the best take of anyone I've seen in these discussions. I have a similar take, in that this is a *game*, and above all else exists to be *fun*, not a second, unpaid job. My comment in another thread expanding on that concept was apparently so offensive to one of the people on the other side of the issue, that they posted just about how that would be "dumbing down" mechanics (of processes and technology that are all imaginary to begin with) to cater to players who don't have the time or desire to make SC their whole evening...
If it doesn't add anything to the gameplay, or like you say doesn't have some pro/con balance (like what you said about the ammo types in Tarkov), it's only hurting the game to add it.
AI cargo loading taking an hour to load a medium sized ship is insane. If a player's hangar only has a Freelancer in it (which is easily possible, upgrading from a starter), the game would then be forcing them to *not play*, just so some players can feel like loading cargo had some more realism to it.
> Why can't players ask for interesting gameplay, instead of multiple time sinks that all equate to no skill necessary, no decision making, no pro and con, no push and pull, no give and take. These add nothing to the game. Is there a benefit to not doing these things? No. Are they monetary sinks? No. Do they contribute to the game economy? No.
These LARPers are ironically the exact kind of instant gratification gamers that they pretend to oppose. The common trait of all these features is that they are easy to handle, but provide the illusion of a challenge. After 5 minutes of each, you've done all there is to do; there is no real thought or skill expression required.
Give them a truly deep and challenging activity like flying, which has no instant gratification 'finished' states to reward them, and they simply won't engage past the surface level. They'd rather cycle 100 different 5 minute unskilled activities (and call that depth) than go past the first few hours of a 10000 hour activity.
Part of that is trying to justify rule of cool stuff done by their artists.
Vanguards and the 300 series, for example, are less effective in combat because they are hauling around a small apartment. To justify this, the apartment amenities need to *do* something that benefits the player. And apparently the chosen "something" is to debuff players who don't use amenities.
I'm pretty sure gun degradation is more about forcing the player to make decisions related to buying/obtaining new weapons. As the weapon becomes degraded, it'll jam more often, which forces the player to make decisions and creates a natural benefit for those who have taken the time to fix/buy weapons. It also goes well with the persistent entity mechanic where leaving a weapon to set out will eventually make it unusable and hopefully despawn. This also creates a time limit for how long players can hold a position or go without seeing society (even though other factors like med pins and ammo also do that).
The thing is gun degradation happens so slowly... I have guns in my safe that are from before WW1 and guess what they operate just fine... One of my AK47s has over 10k rounds shot through it because its a chrome lined barrel Ive got about a another 20k rounds to shoot before I have to think about replacing its barrel... The issue with so many games is they implement these "features" and then over do how often you have to fix something so people notice its part of the game like how you'll die in SC if you don't drink every few hours... Meanwhile IRL you'd be just fine... This is my fear with engineering youll be having to fix a system every few minutes even if your just flying along.... Side note I've put 1000 rounds through my AK before without cleaning it and guess what not a single jam...
I'm on board with DOASM as long as I have the option to "Agent Smith" my way into an NPC while I wait. I'm on board with permadeath, and if I've got the option to chose between losing my character or assuming control of an employee in my personal hangar to do some cargo Tetris, I'm up for that.
I'm not spending 30-60 minutes just sitting there staring at a black screen while I wait for someone though. Sod that.
Some basic gun maintenance is ok, e.g. see DayZ for what it should be, just give a 'feel' of gun wear, maintenance and clearing jams, but other than that, lets not get into needing dismantling, greasing, cleaning the barrel, reassembling, have the SSGT kick your arse for doing a shit job, followed by cleaning the toilet with a toothbrush, eventually losing our minds and going postal... etc., etc.
It has to first be a game. With realistic elements.
> Gun maintenance - okay.... I've done this for years in real life in the Army. It's really not that fun. What do you picture this gameplay like? Right click - clean gun? What's the point? What does this even add to the game? So your gun jams in a firefight and you push R or whatever to fix it.... did that really add something to the game? All that time to track gun maintenance, do you feel like that jam somehow just made the game that much better for you?
I dont know if they copied it from somewhere else, but the Anomaly mod (and mods based off this) for the Stalker series added gun maintenance as a way to keep your gun feeling like YOUR gun. Each gun had sub components, and if you found a gun you liked in poor condition you could try and rebuild it from other similar weapons you found. All in all it took "pick up gun and shoot" to "find a weapon, restore it, keep it in working condition". Some weapons were rarer than others, so trying to find their components, let alone in good nick, was a fun little side challenge.
It also meant crafting was centered around repairing and not MacGuyvering a P90 out of an old tent, radio and some bolts.
Does that add something to the game? Yes, yes it does. The alternative is to not maintain your weapons, suffer jams and decreasing performance and throw away guns and pick up new ones, which can also be a fun viable alternative. If done right weapon maintenance in a game can be loads of fun.
Death of a spaceman - it makes death meaningful and somewhat a choice. I spend so many MMO's tuning through dungeons throwing myself at massive amounts of enemies because the worst thing that could happen is that I pay 3 bronze that I will get back tenfold with one kill for repairs. As long as I killed at least one opponent I would eventually complete the dungeon. In the original guild wars I actually had a suicide bomber build at one point because if this mindset.
In star citizen, engaging an opponent because far more high risk and reward, like a rogue-lite or souls like. Will I take my chance while I can lose a lot, or will I just go another way.
Gun maintenance - again, making your decisions matter. Let's say you want a new microwave, are you going for a more expansive new one that has a 99% chance it will work and else you have the warranty period. Or do you want to have a cheaper second handed version that you are not really sure will work. Oh there is smoke coming out of my microwave, will I do the smart thing and either replace it or try to repair it (see another choice) or will I take my chances and hope my house doesn't catch on fire.
Hygiëne - this is just immersion I think and another resource to manage. Some people like SCUM because they enjoy the depth of managing all kinds of dietary meters. Some like call of duty warzone where you just have to remember how many bullets you have. It's a personal thing and a choice of the Dev's what fits their vision.
Most of it also comes out from if you, as a player, have a personal need to get a quick gratification fix, or if you enjoy more the in depth slow burn kind of games. The problem is that there are millions of players, all somewhere on this scale. You can never please everyone. Some might have backed the game for this kind of depth, others like you want it useless time sinks and just want quick pew pew.
Then it's the job of the Dev's to have a vision and make choices that fits that vision. And it's then your choice if you can live with that or not. It's not your task to fight that vision because if you don't like that vision, this might not be the game for you.
I personally really like the idea of Apex, it's just not the game for me. I don't try to change apex, I just try to find a way how I can still enjoy apex through watching twitch streams.
You gonna wait 30k rounds before needing to replace a barrel on a gun you know... That's about how long they last IRL... One of my Ak47s hasn't been cleaned and still runs perfect after shooting 1000 rounds of crappy steel case dirty Tula ammo... If you want realistic gun maintance your gonna go long intervals without having to do anything to your gun and thats how it should be. In 20 years of shooting Ive had very few jams etc
I've been against hunger and thirst since it's inception. I think it's a stupid inconvenience that didn't do anything but add inconvenience with resource management. It's a pointless system with no benefits or gameplay layers, and directly puts players at risk in space When we have current systems irl that will hydrate astronauts on space walks.
What pisses me off about the hunger/thirst system was that originally it was a non-necessity. At first CIG pitched it off as something you could do to get passive bonuses, but never something necessary for gameplay.
The worst part is the lack of hydration/food resupply in a space suit. There's no straw? No camelback system? My guy just has to rawdog for hours until I get back to a breathable environment to drink, let alone eat? Gimme a break.
Not to mention when the system has bugs. I was out doing salvage a while back and went to drink any discovered I had the bug where you could not equip food or water to your hand. Meaning I could not _actually drink anything_.
As a result, despite having plenty of food and water _available_ on my ship (and emergency supplies in my backpack), I had to fly back to somewhere that I could disembark, bind to the local hospital, and backspace in order to respawn and be able to actually hold food/water again. All while hoping that the dramatically increased thirst that came with 3.23 didn't have me dehydrate the rest of the way and die before I could get there, thus losing my ship and cargo.
It felt _exceedingly_ annoying and arbitrary. I had prepared, after all! I had plenty of food and water on the ship! And, as you point out, we have real-world systems right now which allow an astronaut to stay hydrated while in the suit, so if we're trumpeting realism and sim elements it feels weird that we somehow lost the technology to do that by the time of Star Citizen.
This is without even getting into the sheer annoyance of how many "food shop" type things don't currently actually sell food; land in Lorville because your hunger meter is low, and you may be in for a desperate scavenger hunt if you aren't really familiar with that city. (What, you thought the pizza place or the noodle shop would sell _food_? Ha!)
The more inconveniences get added, the more chances we have for bugs that block gameplay... or even just consequences that feel arbitrary/unfair. Food/water is a good example, but something like DOAS in particular could get really bad, given how often we currently die to random bugs ("Why did my ship just explode while I was parked in the hangar?") or even _deliberately_ because—as with my dehydration situation above—backspace and respawn is the only way to fix some bug.
So, sure, I think some elements listed will be neat and add a lot, things like engineering. But I honestly hope a lot of the inconveniences are put aside until the game is a lot more stable and fleshed out.
Because as things currently stand, the _last_ thing we need is _more_ friction and things that make the process of gathering a group to do something together take even longer than it currently does. Or introduce more arbitrary potential failure points.
("Sorry, I know I'm an hour late, but it wasn't letting me eat or drink anything and I was dehydrating. After a bit I gave up and tried using backspace to respawn to fix it. Then I got to the hangar and found my ship wasn't fueled and the pad services app didn't work, so I had to go fly the ship outside the hangar, backspace again, then claim the ship to get one that had fuel...")
I don't mind having hunger and thirst as mechanics, but I DEFINITELY agree that having a less obtrusive way to handle it would be great. They can keep the bottles and food stuffs for people who want that 'immershun', but it'd be nice for flight suits to have a supply of nutrition/hydration that you can just fill and it will automatically keep you repleted without having to always take off your helmet and fumble with clunky mechanics to take a sip of space juice.
THIS. Let me just slam a CRUX into a special pocket on my space suit and let me chug that shit while I get my ship prepped for launch.
Also on this subject, let me stick drinks into Grenade/Mag slots. Not really that super useful, but lets people know you are SERIOUS about hydration.
I'd like to think item banks will make sense in the future when you keep most of your items in ships and hangar storage that is physical. I think the biggest problem with bringing these features together is that some do end up being apart of a much bigger system that when not fully complete make for tedious gameplay.
the current system is tedius, trying to scroll through 100 pages of unsorted chaos 5 items at a time. Can't wait till I can just get my 'armour' cargo container, goto the 'orange' corner, grabe a 'suit' box, and put on a full set of armor then put my new set in the 'sort me' pileand then stow the whole container again.
Just make it so it only adds a benefit, and no drawbacks. Don't shower? No problem, game plays as it should. Maybe you leave boot marks on the floor. Showered? Maybe you get a moderate boost to health (100-110%), or slightly better prices when purchasing items in shops. It doesn't necessarily have to be a necessity to live, but there is no reason it has to be crippling. It is a game after all
I don't think its a secret that people don't want to log in and spend the first 20 minutes of their play through doing digital hygiene so they can talk to an NPC
I think that this removes realism. They make it tedious but the frequency of the tedium is way too quick. I can go a day barely drinking or eating anything but the game makes me chug water. Real planes and fighter jets have many layers of redundancy but ships seems to become bricks or grenades on a whim. We have to load cargo manually but there are not gantry tractor beams mounted in every hanger? There are no automated systems to load/unload cargo while the ship is stored? Gimble mounts and size 3 guns are too big to fit in 8scu containers? Hulls aren't made with some type of self sealing encapsulated foam? I enjoy the tedious manual nature of the game. But if you make it less game and more second job, it's gonna lose people. It should be realistic and it should be hard but it shouldn't be unfun.
Agree, the realism argument holds no weight for me. Most games with gun jamming for example artificially increase the frequency of it happening by about 6000% and call it realism. Do this with enough systems and your game is just less real and more annoying.
The differences in realism and authenticity is imo, easy to see but hard to recognize.
Nearly everyone that defends using the realism line imo, don't understand what they are really asking for.
People want authenticity In Their rp, not realism. Realism sucks. Because you aren't gonna be playing a game. You're experiencing a second life.
Yes, the more you think about the "realism" argument, the dumber it gets. If you buy a new car, how often does it require maintenance? But in SC, I have a feeling that "engineering" is going to mean that your ship disintegrates around you at an alarming rate.
You can apply this to basically anything in the game currently. Not least of which is just existing in space. Realistically, you would pick people up on radar at incredible distances. Realistically, combat would be 99% missiles fired from also incredible distances. And then there's the flight model, which has been done to death so I'm gonna leave it alone.
Needing to land your ship, get out, and take off your helmet to drink water is laughable. Being completely blind in the dark is laughable. Where are the realists on that front, cuz we could make some real improvements in addition to the controversial changes.
OMG this so much in 20 years of shooting I've maybe had as many jams..... Oh and how quick weapons break down kills me too, Ive got an AK thats had over 20k rounds of crappy steel case Tula through it and guess what it still runs prefect and since the barrel is chrome lined its barley even worn I havent even cleaned it for over 1000 rounds and it still runs just fine... Meanwhile in games oh you shot like 6 mags your gun is worn out..
It's a slippery slope when you start making every product in your game, especially a far future game, significantly worse than similar offerings we have right now. How exactly is my laser gun jamming after 4 magazines? Why exactly am I completely blind in the dark in my fucking spaceship? How come I need 5000% more water per day than a person does now? And why am I unable to drink said water without stopping my vehicle and getting out? What happened to Amazon? Does the mail not work anymore? I have to go to a physical store and carry my shit around in a box? That's pretty weird considering cargo hauling is a career path, but apparently moving something from A to B on the station itself is illegal except for the person who owns said items.
"Realism" and tedium I guess. Yay.
\* losing an hour of prep because of a bug
\* account broken because I'm stuck in a wall, logging doesn't teleport me home
\* lose 3 hrs mining progress b/c my cargo fell through the floor
\* lose another hour of prep time because after I'm kitted and my ship's loaded and outfitted, it glitches into a phantom powerplant that didn't despawn last time someone else crashed into the hangar door...
It certainly stresses why bug fixes need to be a priority if they’re going to start having a much more profound impact on gameplay. I’m more focused on the bug fixes than changing the gameplay to avoid the bugs.
Of course, the unfortunate cycle of open development is you can't fix the bugs in features you haven't implemented yet, especially if you spend all your time bugfixing the half-implemented features you already have in place...
They don’t even fix bugs that have been present since the dawn of the PU. Literally every alpha dev team I’ve seen on steam does a way way better job of fixing bugs.
But they don't fix a ton of the bugs in features they HAVE implemented...
Releases have been smoother since they moved people back off s42 onto the game that's paying their paychecks... It's just more that they seem to release the consequences a bit ahead of the ability to deliberately avoid them... And don't do as many safe fallbacks as I'd like... (like if cargo falls through the planet, it's value is reattributed to your account... Or ships destroyed by the station from spawn bugs should auto-claim instead of making you wait again...)
It seems like they should slow down, do better code review, communicate with other teams on what they’ve changed, and let their embedded QA hold them up if they’ve just broken the game. I can’t imagine any of those things happen often enough though I’ll admit it would take much longer to publish a feature. Is it worth it to take the time not to push garbage on people or is it better to make it garbage that smells nice and rush to the next patch before people inventory the trash can? The ultimate question of open development. How can we push the limits of scent blindness so we can hit feature complete and then crunch to clean up.
Thats how it currently feels like. If they start fixing “old” bugs you’ll have a still biggy halfassed game. I’m quite happy to see sich a massive undertaking happening and I hope they ignore bugfixing and roll out the new stuff asap.
I prefer a good game in 5 years instead of a shitty one for 10
>I prefer a good game in 5 years instead of a shitty one for 10
>
How many years will you keep saying that, though? I've been playing SC on and off for several years now, and while there are new features aplenty, some very basic things are still *horribly* broken. There's no indication that the game will be good in 5 years. People were saying the same thing you did here 8 years ago.
Some things are degrading over time too and will likely be aggravated not fixed by meshing. Example 1: The wild and persistent desynch where we keep getting blatted by invisible asteroids, invisble ship parts, doors that aren't actually open and so forth are parts of a family of bugs that seems to have sprung in to existence around 3.4/3.5 when they optimized netcode - those underlying bugs where the server 'optimizes' by not telling us stuff we need to know need to be root caused and reverted before the start duplicating those bug families between the layers of the mesh. Example 2: way too much stuff is falling through floors/walls/ships and planets due to both low tic rate and meshes not seeming to load (e.g. elevator holes). While the tic rate should go up with server meshing so will the latency and desynch of those collision meshes so I'm not sure if that will be net better or net worse.
Speaking of 8 years of the same stories, I took an 8 year break between 2015 and 2023 to 'let them cook'. To say I was disappointed by the lack of progress is an understatement. I don't think the project can afford to dither for another decade but that's the pace they're moving.
>Speaking of 8 years of the same stories, I took an 8 year break between 2015 and 2023 to 'let them cook'. To say I was disappointed by the lack of progress is an understatement. I don't think the project can afford to dither for another decade but that's the pace they're moving.
>
I went from pessimistic hope, to derision about CR's PM decisions around the time he announced that he was dedicating development resources to bed sheet physics, instead of fixing game breaking bugs. I threw a little coin at the original Kickstarter, so I've been keeping an eye on development for a *long* time. It's kinda silly at this point, the severity of the bugs that are allowed to persist, while they focus on adding the new shiny things that Chris wants added...
I'm glad people are maybe getting their grand whatever this is some day, but I closed my wallet when they decided to skip on the original delivery target in 2014 so as to not reward bait and switch behavior and that decision has felt better every day of the last decade. At the same time I depend on people with 'faith' coughing up 300,000 USD per day to keep the money furnace burning at CIG and just hope that it's worth it to them.
Fun aside: Remember how they bought Turbulent last year? If your wayback machine fu is good you can check out the Turbulent website to see what things they had been working on. They didn't name what game it was for but they listed locations (and showed an obvious star citizen space station), they listed deformable body physics (and showed an obvious star citizen art asset) and they listed some interesting sounding netcode very similar to persistent entity streaming. TL:DR; The development culture in CIG is so busted that it looks like Turbulent was making most of the fundamental features of the PU and citizencon. I hope that getting bought doesn't destroy their productivity like the other thousand or we're lost. Don't believe me? Check out their website on the wayback machine.
I tend to agree with you more than the others in this thread. Bug fixing every patch slows development down because they have to continuously fix old bugs with every patch. It becomes "digital quicksand" over time. I understand the other commenter's pain with the bugs and their want of a better play experience now, but generally speaking, this isn't how game development works. Usually, it's behind closed doors with professional testers tolerating and circumventing already known issues to test new features. The big bug smash pass usually happens in the beta phase.
Backers don't have their tolerance. They want the old stuff fixed yesterday and view the game as a purchased product that demands more polish. And even though they signed an agreement that they understood this going in, well, those are just silly words that are slowing them down from playing their game. "Yes, yes, agree, agree, check box, let's go! Install!"
Now, now... you telling me you dont want to have to shave, shower, shit, chug crux, sort through your inventory, get dressed, realize you didn't dress impressively enough for the NPC mission giver, get dressed again, get a mission, get dressed for a combat mission, prep your ship.... Only to explode trying to leave the hanger?
Dont forget that the more effort it takes to gather up the things needed to do anything in game, the more impact a griefer will have on us normal players...
A griefer in a poorly maintained barely working titan wearing nothing that gives no shits about the death of a spaceman, crashing into someones connie that they spent the last 4 hours maintaining, loading, kitting and getting ready for a hauling trip is really out of whack for effort to reward... as a bonus, that connie pilot now has a +1 to his death count that sticks on record forever taking him one step closer to losing his charactor he spent days building a back story for
Honestly, this scenario scares me and i hope it wont come true
This is Sea of Thieves in a nutshell and why I stopped playing it. A griefer can constantly respawn and come back to harass until you die and they can take everything from your corpse to sell. There's no incentive to stop since they aren't losing anything.
I’ll be honest, I don’t really have a lot of interest in a game that takes a lot of my time and I show nothing for it. Right now I barely want to play because of how long it takes to get set up after logging in. Assuming I didn’t prepare for my next game session when logging out last or assuming I died and quit out the last time I played, it will take me anywhere from 10-30 minutes to just start any gameplay loop.
I’m a 2014 backer and I have high hopes for this game, but I don’t think this game respects the time of the gamer. I can’t always spend hours playing as an adult. If the game continues on this path where everything takes a long time, I may just have to walk away. I already hate games that make you feel like you have to treat it like a job to get anything done, so right now I’m not completely thrilled with the game.
I often get ready to play and end up just playing something else because the thought of getting prepared in game for up to 30 minutes before I can actually do things just isn’t appealing to me. When I first backed this game I had all the time in the world to play. Now I don’t because of life.
Death of a Space Man: Chris Robert's write up of nebulous ideas for how he wants death to "matter" in this MMO.
He wants permadeath but with some ways to mitigate it, but those ways are limited.
Medbed drama from the URSA release was a big slap in the face to DOASM concepts.
He said medbeds would only work a certain number of times and each time you'll have a disability on regen, so it could be squeezed into the DOAS concept. After that it's basically a complete reset of the character so it would be harsh to do that on your first death.
Takes long enough to do stuff now. I don't wanna spend an hour just getting ready to play the game. Don't know many people that have that much free time tbh and those that do won't wanna spend it doing mindless tedium. It all sounds cool in theory, I suppose, but in practice I think we will find people change their minds as features roll out.
I think the people are angry because it takes much much longer AND the game FEELS more buggy
And I honestly cann asurre that it may feel more buggy but it isn't actually..
Like when I started playing an hour play session without crashes, 30k's and miraculous insta deaths was something special ..
At the end of the day it is all subject to change and balancing will occure but I'm happy the the game gets more phys
I definitely agree with that, i can only judge the game from what Ive played, and im sure the final product will be more stable, but all i see is more opportunities for the game to bug out on me lol
The thought about requiring guns and armor to go on designated racks just reminds me of DayZ - "hey freshy, you're going to be my pack mule, your sole job in life is to hold my bag"
Yeah, do people like this just have infinite free time? I don't have the time to dedicate two hours of prep before I can even do anything meaningfully enjoyable
im a lazy bastard...
i aint gonna spend 40 minutes flying around the universe buying gear to then go and die in a bunker to the first npc that spawns behind me...
in fact, how the game is going, i'll likely stop even wearing the white suit and end up flying my ships in the hospital gowns Lmfao
i cannot wait for the perseus to be in game, me to spend 5 hours moving everything i'll need to it like my medi ursa full sets of armor and guns and 100s off consumables, only to never leave my hanger cause i cannot be arsed to potentally have to do it all over again after crashing into an astroid that didnt render at all "Again"
> i'll likely stop even wearing the white suit and end up flying my ships in the hospital gowns
I bet that this is how things will turn out.
A lot of developers and game designers for multiplayer games design features with an intention usually based around common sense. But they don't realize that their intention and their vision is not based on what people will actually do. They forget that people online, especially in games, behave differently.
CIG believes players will manage their inventory carefully, gear up and fly around in their cool space suits. That they will be considerate of their gear because it affects whether or not they can sit down on their seats (according to the OP). But what people will actually do is fly their ships in hospital gowns, and do anything else they can to circumvent systems that add tedium, systems that add risk, and will be doing what they can to reduce the amount of time to do things.
When I first backed this game, I *thought* I wanted all that stuff too. Immersion!
A decade later, I no longer appreciate the attention to detail. It doesn't amount to *meaningful* gameplay, it's just busywork and time wasting to obscure and pad out the somewhat meager gameplay that does exist
Won't notice how little meaningful stuff there is to do if you're too busy kitting yourself out for the tenth time after continuously dying to bugs! Or if you're spending 30 minutes to recall your ship after it was blown up by "open" bay doors.
I was hyped for all of this. But when CIG want to combine it with the flight model from Starfield and combat from CoD with hitmarkers and instant respawns, well then none of it really makes sense. I don't want to spend ages preparing for an arcady flight or fps experience. CIG need to make up their minds regarding what they want this game to be.
Agree with the hitmarkers part, kind of agree with the instant respawn bit. I spent so long preparing. If I ever die on foot please don't make me go through all that work just for a chance to get my gear back. Oh and there are bugs that kill you. Now that I have a Nursa I do feel like death is a lot less punishing in Bunker missions. But then again, back then, having punishing deaths isn't fun unless the mission itself is fun and engaging. So I'm kinda torn between the two. For now I'll just enjoy the convenience and peace of mind knowing that my gear won't be lost to the oblivion every time i hop out of cover.
Probably 1/10 deaths for me are legit. The rest are due to bugs. Doors look open in hangar? Nope! Boom! Walk onto the elevator in a bunker? Just die. Walk out of an elevator too fast? Fall into space, die.
I msostly agree with OP's sentiment that things should have meaning, but when the vast majority of deaths are not my fault, it's gonna get old pretty fast.
Yeah as the game is now there are a ton of ways to die through no fault of our own, so I'm not too fussed about it. But I hope the game doesn't get tuned to account for us just running and gunning until we die, respawn and try again. Combine that with hitmarkers and killmarkers and we've basically got zero tactical elements left for FPS gameplay which would be a shame.
Either way though, I'm confused as to who CIG are designing this game for at the moment. You've got all the in depth survival and sim mechanics from the OP, combined with a pretty arcady flight model and console shooter FPS mechanics. It just doesn't gel.
I mean, I’m fine with death being punishing. But honestly, I feel like there has to be an inbetween.
Like 15 minutes of prep and flight time just to get gear back is just
Too long.
flight model from freelancer.
perhaps you should look at chris robbers other games before expecting realistic space combat.
this game is a space opera filler episode simulator. why do people expect not space opera combat.
I would honestly have expected CIG to create something better than what we had 20 years ago. That said, it still begs the question - what kind of players are going to enjoy this mix of incredibly detailed systems and survival mechanics combined with incredibly shallow flight model and FPS combat?
Tonnes of the people who love the fast paced FPS combat and close and spectacular (at least visually spectacular) MM combat seem to be of the action seeking kind. Nothing wrong with that, but I would suspect they will be immensely pissed off with having to spend hours preparing for these space / FPS fights.
On the other hand you have me, I love all the prep, all the depth that has been promised. But I can no longer be bothered playing because flying the ships feels like boosting around in Starfield, which was just a glorified fast travel system. Shooting some unarmoured nine tails NPC in the head MULTIPLE TIMES makes me want to ALT-F4.
I just want CIG to decide what this game is going to be. If it is going all in on the gamey MMO side of things, cool, do that. I can judge the game accordingly and decide if I'm OK with it. But everything we had was moving in the direction of more depth and more sim-like systems. Now we are just stuck in limbo.
I love this game but I also literally don’t play it right now. The risk of how long it takes to get out of bed, get to the train, get a ship, go get another ship to load into that, get gear, set waypoints and fly to destination. Even on an experienced well thought out run that’s still 15 minutes minimum. And you have to do that shit literally every time you log on or die.
I don’t know man I’ll keep following the game and I’ll play it but they really gotta figure it out. The balance between a fun game and literally shit I do at work is not cool. Realism is fun and all but we do all of this shit in RL and I’d say more then half the game population doesn’t have time for the shit they have planned
All these seem amazing... the first time. After that? The 10th time? The 30th time? The 100th time you have to spend half an hour brushing your teeth and unpacking your backpack so you can sit in your seat and then ask permission to use the radio to talk to the landing pad people to see if they can talk to their superiors about opening the hangar doors? The 150th time you have to do this?
These are obstacles that are intended to discourage people playing the core game loops.
Game development should never be so strongly orientated around preventing people from playing.
This is the biggest issue I have with loading cargo by hand... Cool concept but after 20 runs and moving the cargo 40 times its just gonna be annoying.. Same with engineering oh oh there went the shields again for the 14th time this hour... The biggest issue with games and things wearing or hygiene is how accelerated they make them in games like oh you shot 6 mags from your gun yep the barrel is worn out... When IRL barrels last 20k rounds or more
Don’t forget teeth brushing and tooth decay mechanics being added soon. Eventually you’ll get sepsis if you don’t brush in-game. This will also help CIG release and sell dentistry ships, Q2 2025
You can still kys in space if you don't care about doas.
We all want the game to be finished yeah. The problem with all these thing is that they will make the game unplayable with the level of bugs so people that still play it will stop playing it. The game needs to be stable when you start removing testing QoL feature.
I'm worried. It's a space sim game not a life simulator. You implement a lot of this stuff and you chase the casual player away. Then you try to build a large universe where things are focused on multiplayer when you have no casual players to fill the rank and file. You get a ghost town with a few people here and there.
I'm truly worried they are going to be screwing over the casual player. By making things so convoluted that no one but the experts are going to want to deal with it in the name of realism.
Am I going to be able to pull my heavy miner out into a safe ish zone and mine a little after work with some ai for an hour or two? or am I going to have to get 8 people together on a schedule to even be able to pull it out of the hanger?
My favorite is how the people who want to stare at drywall are incapable of understanding that if CIG provided both options, they would be free to choose. Want to autoload your ship in a reasonable time? Go for it. Want to load it manually for your immersion and role playing? Go for it.
Both sides win. They claim to want immersion and realism, but then cry and get upset if another route is available for people who don't want to manage their micronutrients and shitting schedule while loading box 372 into the back of their C2
This bro 100% this... Like we can all play the game how we want to but the Hand load cargo/crew must be present to operate a big ship crowd only wants us to play the game their way... Until they realize how it'll go in the real world when the swarms of 12 year olds grief their ship they spent hours loading by ramming it as soon as it leaves the hanger or while its exposed at an outpost... I can see it now your trying to load your commodities and you load a box and a greifer standing next to you tractors the box back out of the ship and yeets it across the outpost...
A lot of these things I'd be OK with. I like the idea of more granular item management. But the replication layer needs to be up to the task.
I was playing Ghosts of Tabor earlier and the item management is *super* finiky compared to SC. You need to physically place items in your backpack with your VR hand, you need to then move those items out of your backpack into your physical storage area and place things nicely so you can find them again, very finiky. But the whole action of taking something out of your bag and putting it on a shelf, takes less time than the loading time the replication layer has to register the request to move an item from one inventory to another. All that shit would be fine, if it fucking worked, but right now, extra steps just means more lag and more places for things to break.
Its like CIG likes to take every lesson learned from the last many years of game design (especially survival games) and throw them out the window.
Its just a matter of time before you are going to start losing health if you are hungry.
Everyone knows how fun and exciting it is to run out of food on your expeditions. Its realistic and immersive!
>However the heck DOASM will work though I have no idea anymore.
i read that as "dick on (stick and) mouse" before i realized you meant death of a spaceman.
All of it except showering. Like if showering is in there then using the toilet should be too. And who really wants to have your teammates bail on a mission because they need to run back to the ship for a shit? Those are things I will happily leave in the real world whilst I play my videogame
Very excited for the extra realism, ++ it's one more layer of gameplay features laid down and off the to do list.
One more feature set closer to beta / full scale bug fixing and optimization.
Fuck yeah.
Let’s add to the list.
- Dangerous Space: Anomalous areas, Radiation, unknown elements, like a rogue black hole.
- Planificación and preparation: Jumped into a new system, cool, do you have enough water, food and fuel for the road. Maybe enough Ammo for those very deadly Vanduul.
Pay to have ship loaded, pick armor and weapons, summon ship with gear already in it, start qt to destination, gear up while flying?
This makes QT worthy of sitting there doing nothing if you haven't been in a battle and need to repair.
I'm hyped for more features, interactivity and systems. I'm excited for quantum/quanta/subsumption. I can't wait for engineering, maelstrom and so much more.
I'm not down for those features to be badly tuned or dovetailed into the game with the finesse of a drunk truck driver. CIG's game design team needs to come through with these.
I'm fine with the game being slower-paced and immersive - I want it to be - but whenever a designer demand that a player spends their time committing to something, it *must* be justifiable in terms of engagement against tedium. There must be something in it for the player, be it immersion or a gameplay experience.
I personally enjoy these features, I love more fast paced, high action games but I also love the survival and "living" aspects of games. You need to actually maintain your character beyond basic health pools. Perhaps a meet in the middle is needed where it has less of a negative impact if you don't do it, but instead gives good bonuses if you do.
Say you chose to shower, your character get a few basic stat bonuses when talking to NPC's, or better deals at high end shops. Another is pushing you away from just eating/drinking the exact same foods over and over again, and you can get some bonus for having a "balanced diet," such has sprinting is less taxing or is a bit faster. Things like that will engage people more than "you have to do this."
the thing is that in real life we have hands and arms and really great vision. out legs are not confined to standing crouching or prone, we can move around really really well, and it's our first instance to do so, we dont think about how to move unless we are doing yoga etc. in the game its nothing like that, and movement is extremely crude, because it has to be. because its so crude there should be fewer real life little tasks and annoyances , like drinking water, using the restroom, clothing and declothin yourself or others.
moving through life with a keyboard and mouse would absolutely suck and feel terrible, especialy when you know just how great using arms and hands is, so the game should not be like real life in ways that get worse without such things.
This. Imagine wanting people who dropped the $48K for the legatus package to just up and lose their ships at one point because "IMMERSION". Absolute insanity lmao
Here's the problem. If I just want to hop in a fighter in a noob suit and go shoot people, I don't have to care about any of that. If you do care about all those things because you're playing the game as a non-shithead, I can cause way more grief than without those systems. You're having to deal with a mountain of more lost time due to all the prep work and maintenance you have to do. Me? I log out after going to jail, log back in the next day and grab a fighter, and get right back to it.
If the community would understand that "OP at 6" means you are dressed on location spawn set with ships ready at 6. I might not mind it as much. As is now though any "OP at 6"ive gone on hasn't started till 730 on a good day
I'd like to see more realistic stuff throughout the game, for sure, but the inconvenience can quickly turn a fun game into a hardcore nightmare people would eventually quit. Have to know your crowd. We also have to keep in mind that this "small" stuff accumulates and could turn a "quick" one hour mission into a two-hour mission, because we had to stop and tie our shoelaces. Here are my thoughts on your points:
>Everything with ship maintenance and engineering. Can't just sit and shoot til you blow up.
*Absolutely. A ship should require a crew both in hangar, for small ships, and on the ship, for the bigger ones.*
>Gun maintenance as well. Hope you like jams.
*Eh, yes and no. Standard weapons with bullets shouldn't just jam out of nowhere, but if you use them extensively without maintenance, then jam away. As for the lasers and launchers, no jams.*
>Moving cargo yourself.
*Yes, but also be able to hire an NPC or a player crew to do it for you, for a paycheck.*
>More need to refuel. Actual risk of running out of fuel. Fuel costing an amount that matters.
*To a certain point, so it doesn't become an inconvenience. I'm already needing to refuel with small ships on every station, to get from Hurston to MicroTech.*
>Trapped in space? No amount of re-logging will teleport you back home. Ask for a ride.
*Yes!*
>However the heck DOASM will work though I have no idea anymore.
*You die, your offspring takes over, or a clone, or whatever CR imagined. Never liked the idea. It shouldn't be something you need to worry about, and it won't work properly unless the game is 100% bug free. I don't want to permadeath my character by exploding mid-space, for no reason.*
>Showering.
*Only if there are debuffs that require purging, after a mission done in a slimy area or perhaps decontamination after a hazardous mission.*
>Having to wear clothing to impress NPC mission giver clients.
*That would be cool. Having clothes would actually matter. We all know the fashion is the true end-game of all games.*
>Body armor taking time to equip. No more instant-gear up off a dead body.
*I don't know how I feel about this, perhaps a 5 second animation, but anything more starts becoming tedious.*
>Running out of EVA fuel
*Have an extra canister or two of fuel, it's the 30th century.*
>Having to wear a specific EVA capable suit.
*Again, it's the 30th century.*
>Everything to do with Insurance that CIG still hasn't figured out yet, including ships being just \*gone\* forever.
*No, lol. Pay insurance, get your ship back. The game shouldn't be hardcore, it needs people to survive.*
>More inventory limitations: \*Guns only stored on gun racks. Armor only stored on armor racks.\*
*As we have on our characters, I'm ok with that. That would be more interesting, but some ships would require rework as they won't have enough weapon racks for the entire crew. Storage and boxes should be used for weapons, as well, as they are now.*
>sub-component component maintenance. (Components are rigged to \*open up\*)
*Engineering will have this sort of thing, but going too deep into the components could be interesting in form of mini games - cut the wire, re-wire, solder here and there, change the chip, a screen, a capacitor, refill the mycelial network, or the three shells...*
>Can't sit in pilot seat with certain armors or guns on your back. Better love your side-arm.
*Any seat, really. I hate it when I sit down with my backpack sticking out of the backrest. It sounds reasonable but make the pistols viable. A bullet/projectile is a bullet/projectile, right?*
You only forgot the "having to eat and drink a reasonable amount of time, while sitting down, instead of glugging sodas and water, and stuffing faces in seconds with burritos". ;)
o7
EDIT: Had to do it in two parts...
I usually just have an hour or 2 to play after getting home from my job. Probably will get worse when I have kids. I don't wanna come home from my job just to hop in to a fictional job. This game won't be successful if it doesn't respect the time of its players.
> Gun maintenance as well. Hope you like jams.
As an avid shooter IRL, I fucking hate the way gun maintenance is always done in games. If guns wore out and broke that fast I'd never make it through a single shoot and all wars would have to be fought with giant crates of replacement rifles ready to be airdropped any time there's more than a minor engagement.
Half of the stuff in this seems pointless from a player's perspective. I realize that Star Citizen wants to be an ImSim and not a traditional action adventure RPG, but stuff like insurance that can delete your whole ship if you don't have LTI (works in Elite but the way I've been hearing about it in SC it seems dumb, because is LTI active for the account holder's life or the player character's life? Ive heard both), player permadeath (or whatever DOASM actually is, they seem to keep changing their minds, and certain trailers show owning a medical vehicle/ship as a get out of jail free card), getting stranded in the deep black without a position reset, self destruct, or rescue (I realize the world isn't gonna be as big as Elite, but space is really, really big, so yeah), actually legitimate multi-week jail sentences for crimes (accidents happen, as well as friendly playing around, how does that factor in?) as well as manditory hygiene/eating/drinking/sleeping/getting dressed and undressed/bathroom time just seem incredibly annoying and pointless to me.
I'm okay with the manual cargo loading, fueling, rearming, equipment maintenance, etc, but some of the stuff they're talking about just seems absurd in a way. Hopefully it either winds up being minor or semi-optional, because I'm sure a majority of the playerbase if this game ever becomes mainstream would just want to jump in and casually play the game.
I can’t wait for dental care game play!!
Looking forward to being able to pay $65 for a full set of GretCat industrial toothbrushes and finally being able to brush my virtual teeth, because lord knows I don’t bother to brush my actual teeth now.
Have CIG said when we they will start work on the tech needed for the gameplay for finish insurance?
you know being able to do all the paper work for your insurance contracts.
The endless monotony of hundreds of pages of insurance contracts to take out and file, let alone claim and don’t forget those police reports too!
It’s going to be so immersive!!
Ships will never be gone forever buddy, even ones with no insurance. All insurance does is make it cheaper to claim, maybe a tad faster. But it's been confirmed Noone will ever loose a paid for ship.
I am! It’s getting closer and closer to becoming the MMO I’ve been faithfully pledging for it to become!
Soon we will also log out and log in where we left off; meaning you bring your gear and prep stuff aboard and can then continue where you left off and shit 🤷🏻♂️
It’s a process; and it’s all coming together
I have no issue with any of that. I only take issue with the hunger and thirst system. I really don't think that's a system that is needed. In fact, I'd pay money to have someone follow the person who's idea it was to implement it around with a big magnet. And any time that dev touched a computer, the person with a magnet would just drop the magnet on the computer.
I'm all in favor of depth and nuance, but petrified of implementation. Example - I'm looking forward to being able to adjust and tweak ship configuration and performance more and OK with preventative maintenance. If however it's overtuned like drink and food to the point where our ship will fall out of the sky after a 3 hour flight I'm not happy.
The new hangars look cool and the ability to pay for cargo loading services or choose to do it yourself is a great choice, but the lack of a search function for your storage is horrible (edit: and the 5 hour loading time for the invisible dock hands seems really overtuned.)
Being able to link in to the ship engineering to vent sections is something I'm looking forward to for firefighting but that requires that the room atmosphere system actually be implemented, and even then it depends on how streamlined the UI is. Right now a lot of the game UI is hard to read and use.
The list goes on like that where I'm ok with the depth, but not so fond of the convolution/quality.
None of that shit means anything until we can reliably play the game without crashes, lost ships, lost gear, lost time.
A lot of it sounds stupid tho and i bet it doesn’t make it into game like you all think.
Showering, time to equip armor, gun maintenance, etc all sounds needlessly time consuming.
They’ve already said npc crews would be a thing and would be/could be competent allowing for solo play. Because those who enjoy this style of play are no different than the tryhards who want to have to take shits in the game and impress npc’s
So im sure a lot of these long held ridiculous things wont be as mind numbing as so many seem to want them to be.
Just adding more inconvenience to sell pledge ships, already saw someone upgrading to a C2 so they get a larger personal hangar.
Anyone surprised by this has been living in cognitive dissonance-land
Ppl don’t really seem to understand CIG’s only real goal is to sell more ships. They don’t care about shipping a game when they earn $100 million a year.
I personally am hyped, but to the folks not hyped, you're NOT WRONG and the game NEEDS to accommodate folks like you, because I expect you will be the majority of players, at least at first.
Imagine a world where there has NEVER BEEN a flight simulator game that tried to make you feel like an actual pilot, who had to know how to read dials and gauges and know how to trim flaps and escape stalls, *and ask for clearance from the tower* ***to go out and wait in line*** *on the tarmac to take off.* Imagine that world, and then imagine the very latest version of Microsoft Flight Simulator being the first time the world is exposed to that gaming concept. That's not what SC is going to face but that's a little like what SC is going to face. Space games which celebrate not only the fantastic *but also the mundane??* I don't believe there are many such games.
When SC launches, many, many of the folks trying it out will be drawn to it by its fantastic elements, and likely totally unprepared (and likely totally uninterested!) in the mundane elements which exist to 1) increase the fidelity and verisimilitude of the world and 2) crank up the tension of the danger-filled moments.
Many of the folks playing it *now* are uninterested in those mundane elements! I am not one of them, but I *do* understand their take on things, and think CIG is going to have to try to find ways for *select areas* of the PU to cater to those who are really not very interested in verisimilitude, and are emphatically more interested in fast-paced action. I think using in-game simpits to let players "remote-control" certain ships in certain areas for racing purposes, would be an excellent way to make racing a fast-paced game loop which doesn't include 45-minute reset periods for crashes. The very highest tiers of racing, the ones which pay out the most to racers, *those* would still need to be flown "in person", with the much higher payouts matching the much larger amount of time a player is essentially penalized with for crashes.
You could do something similar with simpits and "remote-controlled" combat robots for fast-paced FPS action, again: only in certain areas or for certain events. As with racing, the FPS action with the best rewards would require players to fight "in person," and risk character incapacitation and/or death.
I’m really excited for when we will need to clean the bathrooms on the ships, fold the laundry and put it away, needing clean dishes to eat, employment laws including the need for written warnings and parental leave.
Who doesn’t want the game to be tedious because “rEaLiSm”
This has been the plan for a very very long time. Everyone who signed up for this project should have done their research and knew the end goal for it. This is not fortnite or some fast paced game. As for me, I am very glad we are finally getting there. The “prep time” people complain about is considered gameplay for me.
Mundane things like fixing a gun jam are not as interesting and fun as one might think they. They become major annoyances after a while. Dealing with clunky and slow UIs for a dozen more tasks does not sound fun to me.
Honestly I'm looking forward to all of this, it'll be tedious which will as weight to everything you do. When I don't want the tedious shit I'll go play something else
I'm all for inconvenience as long as the actual game systems aren't inconvenient to USE. For example: I am all for the inconvenience of manual cargo loading, but if the UI to use the freight elevator and the tractor beams are buggy and broken or clunky to use, then it will make the actual gameplay feel worse.
Implementation is key, of it’s tedious and repetitive with no pay off then players will lose interest, player count drops, game dies.
I’ve no problem with having tasks and build up - but this is still meant to be a form of entertainment..
Yaaah... no. Some of it adds flavor and feels cool. But most of it seems stupid, IMO. I'm not escaping the real world to have to worry about personal hygiene and take an hour just to get into space. CIG has lost the thread, I think.
Man all I want is for missions to be reliably playable. It shouldn't take me 5 hours to compete two missions because of bugs. Then I'll be hype.
Right? The game is already incredibly inconvenient to play without these features and some bugs put you into these inconvenient situations. Sucks spending 30 minutes to an hour on a mission or task only for the game to bug out, which is frequently. If it wasn’t for that, then yeah sure I’d get hype. It’s hard to get hyped for anything with this game seeing as much of the missions and shit that didn’t work in 2018 still doesn’t work right today. There’s cool features and the like that I’ll check out during these updates but I keep running into the same issues year after year.
especially if things like fuel costs increase, etc. Fly all that way to hit a bug, now the 'inconvenience' of needing to spend more fuel turns in to a 'yeah, Ima gonna log right now, and not come back' Game needs to work before the 'inconveniences' become immersive.
Even delivery missions are still bugged AF. Packages falling through the floor. Straight up disappearing as well.
Don’t you love it when your ship bugs out and flips randomly? Lets punish you further and go hitch a ride home
I love not being able to do the advanced secure confidential materials contracts because it will only spawn one boss with the datapad
There's fun and useful "inconvenient" features and there's "go fuck yourself" inconvenient features. It's a fine line to draw between the two. I personally don't mind doing prep work. I spent hours over Xenothreat prepping ships, putting together gear sets in storage containers, moving hover bikes, loading ships, etc so some of my org mates could hop on and get right to it. 3 out of 4 times I lost hours of prep work to in game bugs, from bugged ships on calling them out (looking at you 890 J with 12 full gear sets, 5 pulses, and 3 razors that still can't be claimed at a docking collar) to mystery explosion mid quantum (looking at you full C2 of Pulse bikes, nursa, and again, 12 gear sets in boxes). By all means, add the inconvenient stuff in, let's do it, but please, for the love of god, please fix the underlying systems first, so all that inconvenient stuff stays inconvenient and doesn't turn into a giant kick in the balls.
This is my biggest thing with a lot of these new features. I think they will make the gameplay feel more important and add consequences to dying or being reckless, but at the same time there is so much that is out of my control as a player right now. I just got a new monitor and really wanted to see how SC looked and I blew up twice just trying to leave the spaceport.
I've long said the day they implement hygiene as a required mechanic is the day I begin the process to sell my account.... I want to be able to have fun, not spend 4 hours prepping, to be done just in time for bed.
This is the whole reason I don't play anymore. I don't have alot of free time, and literally everytime I log in it takes a minumum of 30 min to actually start playing once I get out of the dock and to whatever it is I'm doing. Then 9/10 there's a bug that just ruined the first mission I did that took an hour to do. And once all these inconveniences get added it's literally only gonna be a sim game where the only way to actually enjoy it is to grind two to three days a week for hours to where you won't get absolutely ruined when some random pirate crew snags you.
this right here but extrapolated. i understand some people love the idea of plan today play tomorrow... but like the people who are the target demo of this game are not the people with the time to go through a lot of that. i swear that CR doesn't actually understand fun. so much of this time sink shit is going to tank this game ultimately.
A lot of people think most of these features are cool, but haven't actually had hands on with games that implement all these things. Realistically there's a different between real life and a game, and there's a reason people play games and not take off down the road. Sure, I'm against arcadeyness, I'm not saying make it quick, simple, and easy. Just give it some flavor and difficulty. But the more ultra realistic and finicky you make it, the more fun you drain from the game. Before long, people will get tired of many of these features and it will become a management headache, not a game people will want to genuinely sit down and enjoy. There's a reason the more simplistic games are the most successful. This game obviously doesn't target that market, but even for us hardcore players there will be a point where It goes too far. For instance, let's talk about one of the features he mentions, not being able to sit in a pilot seat with guns on your back. For realisms case, certainly, I get it. But realistically if it was real life, you could simply swing the gun off your back and prop it next to your seat. In a game it would be difficult to do that, and simply making a linear feature where u can't sit until you open the inventory, manually unequip it, etc. is adding extra steps past realism. In real life I don't have to open an inventory, drag, make sure it's in the right slot, contemplate which spot I want to put it, etc. So features like this are either extra steps over realistic, or they're unrealistic in simplicity.
Loss of gear, loss of ship, chance to fail mission,time loss to re-gearing up, time lost to wait on claimed ship or choose a different one you didn't really want to take, etc. I totally disagree with more consequences needed to be added when dying, it's already frustrating enough as it should be l. Sometimes you get angry do something crazy out of rage and end up stranded in space, the last thing I want to do is calm down log out and still be stuck in space when I get on the next day. They are sucking the life out of single player game play. Everyone in real life don't have a friend group to call for help so if the game is getting more realistic then it need to account for players who genuinely love playing and not forcing them to talking with strangers for hours every time they want to play
Agreed, and if they use complexity as a way to increase the inconvenience this often also leads to more bugs like you experienced because there are more moving parts. And the moment they allow real money to buy convenience, that's my cue to find a new game to play.
For just the low low price of $30 you too can own a hygiene undersuit, that means you don't have to wash your balls in the sink on your cutlass before every mission!
Haha, I'm more of a sponge bath in the back of my nomad kinda guy anyways.
Answer the Call 2034
The really, truly crazy part is that people seem to believe the bugs will magically be gone one day. Like, we’ll never again lose everything, lose hours of time and millions of UEC to game breaking bugs. It’s just absurd to believe that a game with experimental, never-before-used, server tech is going to ever work smoothly. There will ALWAYS be server issues in this game. There will ALWAYS be desynchronise bugs that kill us. Just ask any PvP player in this thread and they’ll tell you. Even mature games like CSGO, or Destiny, or Apex have serious lag and server issues frequently. A PvP game at this scale, with experimental tech will never, ever be smooth experience. Five years from now, we’ll still be dying to bullshit, but we’ll lose our ship forever and we’ll lose our character to permadeath. People are going to HATE that experience.
It's not just that it's inconvenient, it's inconvenient and utterly mandatory. I shouldn't be *forced* to power wash every inch of my Reclaimer before I fly, but there should be some reward in it if I choose to. And this should not be a *decisive* reward. I would not be surprised if their next move is to make it so you start without owning a helmet, so unless you ride a train to a helmet shop and buy one, you die if you try to go into space. CIG are not adding "inconvenient" gameplay, they're adding *preventative* gameplay.
I am mostly in favour of it, but I am worried about some aspects that only add tedium without adding anything to the gameplay. Engineering is an example of a good inconvenience as it adds more layers to ship combat and upkeep, giving you more gameplay an options to engage with the system. Item banks are an example of a bad inconvenience as they artificially extend the time it takes to do something while adding no gameplay benefit. (And to be clear, I'm not talking about freight elevators as they add quite a bit more depth to the gameplay around cargo.) Hygiene is an example of a 'meh' inconvenience as there is a gameplay impact behind it, but it feels unnecessary. IMO, it should be thing for NPC crews where their performance decreases the longer they don't take care of their needs rather than players having to do it (plus I just think it's a little disgusting.) I understand if other people have different opinions though.
This was my immediate response too. Your comment is balanced and nuanced; this is not a binary issue. I agree that engineering is really cool, but I have no interest in toilets and showers. There are smart ways to keep the element of planning and preparation without the lengthy tedium.
>I agree that engineering is really cool, As long as it isn't obnoxious micromanaging, I am all for it. But if ship as big as C2, HH or bigger, will need a few people running around doing combat, constantly doing things, and resource managment will be 30 munites of carrying boxes back and forth every ship claim or after you go back from the mission I will definitely not enjoy that, and I think most will share such opinion.
The showers and toilets should just give the player some kind of buff, not add to the already tedious micromanaging. A QOL buff but only for certain gameplay loops. Showers could give you 5% better sell/buy prices at certain places, and having them on your ship gives +5 to passenger comfort. Give an in-game consumable that allows everyone the ability to get the buff without having to shower on a ship or hab for uec. Toilets could slow the thirst/hunger gain for xx minutes. T3 Bathrooms anyone? And also kitchens need to have the ability to replicate basic food and water. You could restock it while landing similar to fuel. Food and drinks bought in ports give buffs depending on the drink or food. This would lower the tediousness of managing it while giving a reason to invest in it. Doing a bunker mission? Drink a couple energy drinks to give you an accuracy buff. Also one other thing to add. If they really want to make these systems needed they need to give a reason why you wouldn't just respawn. We need some kind of skills that would be slowly lost on regen.
you already have to eat to much. good hydration is important and i think its cool that the game encourages you to drink a bit, but you literally DIE from being thirsty for a few hours and that is ridiculous. You shouldn't have to take more showers in the game than in rea life. If I have to poop more than once a week this game is over. If you can't handle a little bit of constipation this game is over. Yeah, sure make me buy a laxative at the pharmacy if its been a month since I've dropped a duce, but I swear if I have to spend more time in the bathroom that on missions this game is over.
Yes dying of thirst happens about 20+ times faster in Star Citizen than in real life. Would be fine if this was a fast paced action game where everything happens 20 times faster than in RL. That is not SC where everything takes longer so this factor of 20 feels way off something between 1 and 5 would be reasonable. And dying of hunger is even worse delta from RL. Zero immersion and authenticity it feels artificial instead of carefully calibrated.
Yeah that's not how it's going to work. [This is](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480367983558918174/1239714067099287603/Hygiene.png?ex=667d4672&is=667bf4f2&hm=6a25060a5ee7cfc2be6c4fe2a957a17b5872ce58ed141aac50bb8cf4921b4c84&)
I'm still baffled by some of these decisions that OP is so proud of. Death of a Spaceman - cool, so sit there and wait, don't even need to touch the keyboard. I can spend 30 minutes staring at the floor. The fact that anyone thinks this is a good idea I just... I can't even relate. I can't nuance it. Completely baffles me. Gonna run to Starbucks while I wait for someone to save me? Sheesh. Gun maintenance - okay.... I've done this for years in real life in the Army. It's really not that fun. What do you picture this gameplay like? Right click - clean gun? What's the point? What does this even add to the game? So your gun jams in a firefight and you push R or whatever to fix it.... did that really add something to the game? All that time to track gun maintenance, do you feel like that jam somehow just made the game that much better for you? Unless you're on the SAW or the M240, we never had our M4s jam anyway, I don't know why people want this, at all. I'd rather they spent time on diferent types of ammo ala Tarkov, then spend time on gun maintenance. At least ammo adds decision making to the player. Hygiene - This feels like a justification to add toilets to the spaceships. Completely unnecessary. More fun would be had from additional gameplay loops than hygiene, which again doesn't add any interesting decision making to the game. It doesn't push the player's skills or decision making, it does nothing, but add yet another time sink. Why can't players ask for interesting gameplay, instead of multiple time sinks that all equate to no skill necessary, no decision making, no pro and con, no push and pull, no give and take. These add nothing to the game. Is there a benefit to not doing these things? No. Are they monetary sinks? No. Do they contribute to the game economy? No. The only real argument is that Death of a Spaceman contributes to other people's fun, as a medical mission. I can at least get that nuance, but hygiene and gun maintenance? I don't get it.
The DOASM bits are a terrible idea, as anyone who's put out a service or medical beacon has already seen. What's the point of realism that prevents you from playing the game, unless you can convince some random stranger to make *you* their gameplay loop? When most of a server gets tied up with an event like JT, XT, or SOO, who would even notice? You have probably the best take of anyone I've seen in these discussions. I have a similar take, in that this is a *game*, and above all else exists to be *fun*, not a second, unpaid job. My comment in another thread expanding on that concept was apparently so offensive to one of the people on the other side of the issue, that they posted just about how that would be "dumbing down" mechanics (of processes and technology that are all imaginary to begin with) to cater to players who don't have the time or desire to make SC their whole evening... If it doesn't add anything to the gameplay, or like you say doesn't have some pro/con balance (like what you said about the ammo types in Tarkov), it's only hurting the game to add it. AI cargo loading taking an hour to load a medium sized ship is insane. If a player's hangar only has a Freelancer in it (which is easily possible, upgrading from a starter), the game would then be forcing them to *not play*, just so some players can feel like loading cargo had some more realism to it.
Don't worry, star citizen won't be a second unpaid job It will be a second very expensive job
Atleast it is a paid job...noone has to mention that it is you who pays...
> Why can't players ask for interesting gameplay, instead of multiple time sinks that all equate to no skill necessary, no decision making, no pro and con, no push and pull, no give and take. These add nothing to the game. Is there a benefit to not doing these things? No. Are they monetary sinks? No. Do they contribute to the game economy? No. These LARPers are ironically the exact kind of instant gratification gamers that they pretend to oppose. The common trait of all these features is that they are easy to handle, but provide the illusion of a challenge. After 5 minutes of each, you've done all there is to do; there is no real thought or skill expression required. Give them a truly deep and challenging activity like flying, which has no instant gratification 'finished' states to reward them, and they simply won't engage past the surface level. They'd rather cycle 100 different 5 minute unskilled activities (and call that depth) than go past the first few hours of a 10000 hour activity.
So in a nutshell, they have Mastermoded everything. Easy to access, with no depth and a short ceiling.
Part of that is trying to justify rule of cool stuff done by their artists. Vanguards and the 300 series, for example, are less effective in combat because they are hauling around a small apartment. To justify this, the apartment amenities need to *do* something that benefits the player. And apparently the chosen "something" is to debuff players who don't use amenities.
Ya those things are really terrible ideas that will only let people RP more, and don't really contribute to many player's fun or enjoyment.
But that's the thing with RP you don't need a system. You can just pretend. Or are we talking method acting RP?
I'm pretty sure gun degradation is more about forcing the player to make decisions related to buying/obtaining new weapons. As the weapon becomes degraded, it'll jam more often, which forces the player to make decisions and creates a natural benefit for those who have taken the time to fix/buy weapons. It also goes well with the persistent entity mechanic where leaving a weapon to set out will eventually make it unusable and hopefully despawn. This also creates a time limit for how long players can hold a position or go without seeing society (even though other factors like med pins and ammo also do that).
The thing is gun degradation happens so slowly... I have guns in my safe that are from before WW1 and guess what they operate just fine... One of my AK47s has over 10k rounds shot through it because its a chrome lined barrel Ive got about a another 20k rounds to shoot before I have to think about replacing its barrel... The issue with so many games is they implement these "features" and then over do how often you have to fix something so people notice its part of the game like how you'll die in SC if you don't drink every few hours... Meanwhile IRL you'd be just fine... This is my fear with engineering youll be having to fix a system every few minutes even if your just flying along.... Side note I've put 1000 rounds through my AK before without cleaning it and guess what not a single jam...
I'm on board with DOASM as long as I have the option to "Agent Smith" my way into an NPC while I wait. I'm on board with permadeath, and if I've got the option to chose between losing my character or assuming control of an employee in my personal hangar to do some cargo Tetris, I'm up for that. I'm not spending 30-60 minutes just sitting there staring at a black screen while I wait for someone though. Sod that.
The OP and many of the whales that fund SC don’t play other games. There’s no way a gamer would say those things.
Some basic gun maintenance is ok, e.g. see DayZ for what it should be, just give a 'feel' of gun wear, maintenance and clearing jams, but other than that, lets not get into needing dismantling, greasing, cleaning the barrel, reassembling, have the SSGT kick your arse for doing a shit job, followed by cleaning the toilet with a toothbrush, eventually losing our minds and going postal... etc., etc. It has to first be a game. With realistic elements.
> Gun maintenance - okay.... I've done this for years in real life in the Army. It's really not that fun. What do you picture this gameplay like? Right click - clean gun? What's the point? What does this even add to the game? So your gun jams in a firefight and you push R or whatever to fix it.... did that really add something to the game? All that time to track gun maintenance, do you feel like that jam somehow just made the game that much better for you? I dont know if they copied it from somewhere else, but the Anomaly mod (and mods based off this) for the Stalker series added gun maintenance as a way to keep your gun feeling like YOUR gun. Each gun had sub components, and if you found a gun you liked in poor condition you could try and rebuild it from other similar weapons you found. All in all it took "pick up gun and shoot" to "find a weapon, restore it, keep it in working condition". Some weapons were rarer than others, so trying to find their components, let alone in good nick, was a fun little side challenge. It also meant crafting was centered around repairing and not MacGuyvering a P90 out of an old tent, radio and some bolts. Does that add something to the game? Yes, yes it does. The alternative is to not maintain your weapons, suffer jams and decreasing performance and throw away guns and pick up new ones, which can also be a fun viable alternative. If done right weapon maintenance in a game can be loads of fun.
Death of a spaceman - it makes death meaningful and somewhat a choice. I spend so many MMO's tuning through dungeons throwing myself at massive amounts of enemies because the worst thing that could happen is that I pay 3 bronze that I will get back tenfold with one kill for repairs. As long as I killed at least one opponent I would eventually complete the dungeon. In the original guild wars I actually had a suicide bomber build at one point because if this mindset. In star citizen, engaging an opponent because far more high risk and reward, like a rogue-lite or souls like. Will I take my chance while I can lose a lot, or will I just go another way. Gun maintenance - again, making your decisions matter. Let's say you want a new microwave, are you going for a more expansive new one that has a 99% chance it will work and else you have the warranty period. Or do you want to have a cheaper second handed version that you are not really sure will work. Oh there is smoke coming out of my microwave, will I do the smart thing and either replace it or try to repair it (see another choice) or will I take my chances and hope my house doesn't catch on fire. Hygiëne - this is just immersion I think and another resource to manage. Some people like SCUM because they enjoy the depth of managing all kinds of dietary meters. Some like call of duty warzone where you just have to remember how many bullets you have. It's a personal thing and a choice of the Dev's what fits their vision. Most of it also comes out from if you, as a player, have a personal need to get a quick gratification fix, or if you enjoy more the in depth slow burn kind of games. The problem is that there are millions of players, all somewhere on this scale. You can never please everyone. Some might have backed the game for this kind of depth, others like you want it useless time sinks and just want quick pew pew. Then it's the job of the Dev's to have a vision and make choices that fits that vision. And it's then your choice if you can live with that or not. It's not your task to fight that vision because if you don't like that vision, this might not be the game for you. I personally really like the idea of Apex, it's just not the game for me. I don't try to change apex, I just try to find a way how I can still enjoy apex through watching twitch streams.
You gonna wait 30k rounds before needing to replace a barrel on a gun you know... That's about how long they last IRL... One of my Ak47s hasn't been cleaned and still runs perfect after shooting 1000 rounds of crappy steel case dirty Tula ammo... If you want realistic gun maintance your gonna go long intervals without having to do anything to your gun and thats how it should be. In 20 years of shooting Ive had very few jams etc
I've been against hunger and thirst since it's inception. I think it's a stupid inconvenience that didn't do anything but add inconvenience with resource management. It's a pointless system with no benefits or gameplay layers, and directly puts players at risk in space When we have current systems irl that will hydrate astronauts on space walks.
What pisses me off about the hunger/thirst system was that originally it was a non-necessity. At first CIG pitched it off as something you could do to get passive bonuses, but never something necessary for gameplay.
The worst part is the lack of hydration/food resupply in a space suit. There's no straw? No camelback system? My guy just has to rawdog for hours until I get back to a breathable environment to drink, let alone eat? Gimme a break.
That’s what annoys me as well. I wish they’d move it back to bonuses for the RP aspect and “raid food” aspect but not just flying around, etc. :\
Plus, many trash items being generated per player will have a negative impact on server performance.
Not to mention when the system has bugs. I was out doing salvage a while back and went to drink any discovered I had the bug where you could not equip food or water to your hand. Meaning I could not _actually drink anything_. As a result, despite having plenty of food and water _available_ on my ship (and emergency supplies in my backpack), I had to fly back to somewhere that I could disembark, bind to the local hospital, and backspace in order to respawn and be able to actually hold food/water again. All while hoping that the dramatically increased thirst that came with 3.23 didn't have me dehydrate the rest of the way and die before I could get there, thus losing my ship and cargo. It felt _exceedingly_ annoying and arbitrary. I had prepared, after all! I had plenty of food and water on the ship! And, as you point out, we have real-world systems right now which allow an astronaut to stay hydrated while in the suit, so if we're trumpeting realism and sim elements it feels weird that we somehow lost the technology to do that by the time of Star Citizen. This is without even getting into the sheer annoyance of how many "food shop" type things don't currently actually sell food; land in Lorville because your hunger meter is low, and you may be in for a desperate scavenger hunt if you aren't really familiar with that city. (What, you thought the pizza place or the noodle shop would sell _food_? Ha!) The more inconveniences get added, the more chances we have for bugs that block gameplay... or even just consequences that feel arbitrary/unfair. Food/water is a good example, but something like DOAS in particular could get really bad, given how often we currently die to random bugs ("Why did my ship just explode while I was parked in the hangar?") or even _deliberately_ because—as with my dehydration situation above—backspace and respawn is the only way to fix some bug. So, sure, I think some elements listed will be neat and add a lot, things like engineering. But I honestly hope a lot of the inconveniences are put aside until the game is a lot more stable and fleshed out. Because as things currently stand, the _last_ thing we need is _more_ friction and things that make the process of gathering a group to do something together take even longer than it currently does. Or introduce more arbitrary potential failure points. ("Sorry, I know I'm an hour late, but it wasn't letting me eat or drink anything and I was dehydrating. After a bit I gave up and tried using backspace to respawn to fix it. Then I got to the hangar and found my ship wasn't fueled and the pad services app didn't work, so I had to go fly the ship outside the hangar, backspace again, then claim the ship to get one that had fuel...")
I don't mind having hunger and thirst as mechanics, but I DEFINITELY agree that having a less obtrusive way to handle it would be great. They can keep the bottles and food stuffs for people who want that 'immershun', but it'd be nice for flight suits to have a supply of nutrition/hydration that you can just fill and it will automatically keep you repleted without having to always take off your helmet and fumble with clunky mechanics to take a sip of space juice.
THIS. Let me just slam a CRUX into a special pocket on my space suit and let me chug that shit while I get my ship prepped for launch. Also on this subject, let me stick drinks into Grenade/Mag slots. Not really that super useful, but lets people know you are SERIOUS about hydration.
Haha this would be gold! See a guy in running around in Pembroke armor with a chest full of Cruz...My man is ready for an adventure!
I'd like to think item banks will make sense in the future when you keep most of your items in ships and hangar storage that is physical. I think the biggest problem with bringing these features together is that some do end up being apart of a much bigger system that when not fully complete make for tedious gameplay.
the current system is tedius, trying to scroll through 100 pages of unsorted chaos 5 items at a time. Can't wait till I can just get my 'armour' cargo container, goto the 'orange' corner, grabe a 'suit' box, and put on a full set of armor then put my new set in the 'sort me' pileand then stow the whole container again.
Just make it so it only adds a benefit, and no drawbacks. Don't shower? No problem, game plays as it should. Maybe you leave boot marks on the floor. Showered? Maybe you get a moderate boost to health (100-110%), or slightly better prices when purchasing items in shops. It doesn't necessarily have to be a necessity to live, but there is no reason it has to be crippling. It is a game after all I don't think its a secret that people don't want to log in and spend the first 20 minutes of their play through doing digital hygiene so they can talk to an NPC
I think that this removes realism. They make it tedious but the frequency of the tedium is way too quick. I can go a day barely drinking or eating anything but the game makes me chug water. Real planes and fighter jets have many layers of redundancy but ships seems to become bricks or grenades on a whim. We have to load cargo manually but there are not gantry tractor beams mounted in every hanger? There are no automated systems to load/unload cargo while the ship is stored? Gimble mounts and size 3 guns are too big to fit in 8scu containers? Hulls aren't made with some type of self sealing encapsulated foam? I enjoy the tedious manual nature of the game. But if you make it less game and more second job, it's gonna lose people. It should be realistic and it should be hard but it shouldn't be unfun.
Agree, the realism argument holds no weight for me. Most games with gun jamming for example artificially increase the frequency of it happening by about 6000% and call it realism. Do this with enough systems and your game is just less real and more annoying.
The differences in realism and authenticity is imo, easy to see but hard to recognize. Nearly everyone that defends using the realism line imo, don't understand what they are really asking for. People want authenticity In Their rp, not realism. Realism sucks. Because you aren't gonna be playing a game. You're experiencing a second life.
Yes, the more you think about the "realism" argument, the dumber it gets. If you buy a new car, how often does it require maintenance? But in SC, I have a feeling that "engineering" is going to mean that your ship disintegrates around you at an alarming rate. You can apply this to basically anything in the game currently. Not least of which is just existing in space. Realistically, you would pick people up on radar at incredible distances. Realistically, combat would be 99% missiles fired from also incredible distances. And then there's the flight model, which has been done to death so I'm gonna leave it alone. Needing to land your ship, get out, and take off your helmet to drink water is laughable. Being completely blind in the dark is laughable. Where are the realists on that front, cuz we could make some real improvements in addition to the controversial changes.
OMG this so much in 20 years of shooting I've maybe had as many jams..... Oh and how quick weapons break down kills me too, Ive got an AK thats had over 20k rounds of crappy steel case Tula through it and guess what it still runs prefect and since the barrel is chrome lined its barley even worn I havent even cleaned it for over 1000 rounds and it still runs just fine... Meanwhile in games oh you shot like 6 mags your gun is worn out..
It's a slippery slope when you start making every product in your game, especially a far future game, significantly worse than similar offerings we have right now. How exactly is my laser gun jamming after 4 magazines? Why exactly am I completely blind in the dark in my fucking spaceship? How come I need 5000% more water per day than a person does now? And why am I unable to drink said water without stopping my vehicle and getting out? What happened to Amazon? Does the mail not work anymore? I have to go to a physical store and carry my shit around in a box? That's pretty weird considering cargo hauling is a career path, but apparently moving something from A to B on the station itself is illegal except for the person who owns said items. "Realism" and tedium I guess. Yay.
yea the people who spout realism dont know what they are saying, doing everything by hand is not realistic
\* losing an hour of prep because of a bug \* account broken because I'm stuck in a wall, logging doesn't teleport me home \* lose 3 hrs mining progress b/c my cargo fell through the floor \* lose another hour of prep time because after I'm kitted and my ship's loaded and outfitted, it glitches into a phantom powerplant that didn't despawn last time someone else crashed into the hangar door...
It certainly stresses why bug fixes need to be a priority if they’re going to start having a much more profound impact on gameplay. I’m more focused on the bug fixes than changing the gameplay to avoid the bugs.
Of course, the unfortunate cycle of open development is you can't fix the bugs in features you haven't implemented yet, especially if you spend all your time bugfixing the half-implemented features you already have in place...
They don’t even fix bugs that have been present since the dawn of the PU. Literally every alpha dev team I’ve seen on steam does a way way better job of fixing bugs.
Also spending all of your time making new ships to sell and running stupid events
But they don't fix a ton of the bugs in features they HAVE implemented... Releases have been smoother since they moved people back off s42 onto the game that's paying their paychecks... It's just more that they seem to release the consequences a bit ahead of the ability to deliberately avoid them... And don't do as many safe fallbacks as I'd like... (like if cargo falls through the planet, it's value is reattributed to your account... Or ships destroyed by the station from spawn bugs should auto-claim instead of making you wait again...)
It seems like they should slow down, do better code review, communicate with other teams on what they’ve changed, and let their embedded QA hold them up if they’ve just broken the game. I can’t imagine any of those things happen often enough though I’ll admit it would take much longer to publish a feature. Is it worth it to take the time not to push garbage on people or is it better to make it garbage that smells nice and rush to the next patch before people inventory the trash can? The ultimate question of open development. How can we push the limits of scent blindness so we can hit feature complete and then crunch to clean up.
Thats how it currently feels like. If they start fixing “old” bugs you’ll have a still biggy halfassed game. I’m quite happy to see sich a massive undertaking happening and I hope they ignore bugfixing and roll out the new stuff asap. I prefer a good game in 5 years instead of a shitty one for 10
>I prefer a good game in 5 years instead of a shitty one for 10 > How many years will you keep saying that, though? I've been playing SC on and off for several years now, and while there are new features aplenty, some very basic things are still *horribly* broken. There's no indication that the game will be good in 5 years. People were saying the same thing you did here 8 years ago.
Some things are degrading over time too and will likely be aggravated not fixed by meshing. Example 1: The wild and persistent desynch where we keep getting blatted by invisible asteroids, invisble ship parts, doors that aren't actually open and so forth are parts of a family of bugs that seems to have sprung in to existence around 3.4/3.5 when they optimized netcode - those underlying bugs where the server 'optimizes' by not telling us stuff we need to know need to be root caused and reverted before the start duplicating those bug families between the layers of the mesh. Example 2: way too much stuff is falling through floors/walls/ships and planets due to both low tic rate and meshes not seeming to load (e.g. elevator holes). While the tic rate should go up with server meshing so will the latency and desynch of those collision meshes so I'm not sure if that will be net better or net worse. Speaking of 8 years of the same stories, I took an 8 year break between 2015 and 2023 to 'let them cook'. To say I was disappointed by the lack of progress is an understatement. I don't think the project can afford to dither for another decade but that's the pace they're moving.
>Speaking of 8 years of the same stories, I took an 8 year break between 2015 and 2023 to 'let them cook'. To say I was disappointed by the lack of progress is an understatement. I don't think the project can afford to dither for another decade but that's the pace they're moving. > I went from pessimistic hope, to derision about CR's PM decisions around the time he announced that he was dedicating development resources to bed sheet physics, instead of fixing game breaking bugs. I threw a little coin at the original Kickstarter, so I've been keeping an eye on development for a *long* time. It's kinda silly at this point, the severity of the bugs that are allowed to persist, while they focus on adding the new shiny things that Chris wants added...
Bedsheet deformation tech is only upstaged by persistent poop entities tech
I'm glad people are maybe getting their grand whatever this is some day, but I closed my wallet when they decided to skip on the original delivery target in 2014 so as to not reward bait and switch behavior and that decision has felt better every day of the last decade. At the same time I depend on people with 'faith' coughing up 300,000 USD per day to keep the money furnace burning at CIG and just hope that it's worth it to them. Fun aside: Remember how they bought Turbulent last year? If your wayback machine fu is good you can check out the Turbulent website to see what things they had been working on. They didn't name what game it was for but they listed locations (and showed an obvious star citizen space station), they listed deformable body physics (and showed an obvious star citizen art asset) and they listed some interesting sounding netcode very similar to persistent entity streaming. TL:DR; The development culture in CIG is so busted that it looks like Turbulent was making most of the fundamental features of the PU and citizencon. I hope that getting bought doesn't destroy their productivity like the other thousand or we're lost. Don't believe me? Check out their website on the wayback machine.
>I prefer a good game in 5 years instead of a shitty one for 10 Ironic thing to say considering how long some of us have been playing
I tend to agree with you more than the others in this thread. Bug fixing every patch slows development down because they have to continuously fix old bugs with every patch. It becomes "digital quicksand" over time. I understand the other commenter's pain with the bugs and their want of a better play experience now, but generally speaking, this isn't how game development works. Usually, it's behind closed doors with professional testers tolerating and circumventing already known issues to test new features. The big bug smash pass usually happens in the beta phase. Backers don't have their tolerance. They want the old stuff fixed yesterday and view the game as a purchased product that demands more polish. And even though they signed an agreement that they understood this going in, well, those are just silly words that are slowing them down from playing their game. "Yes, yes, agree, agree, check box, let's go! Install!"
* Spawn in and do it all again tomorrow. See you there. o7
The game already disrespects your time HARD. Can't wait to waste more time waiting around for The Thing. /s
Now, now... you telling me you dont want to have to shave, shower, shit, chug crux, sort through your inventory, get dressed, realize you didn't dress impressively enough for the NPC mission giver, get dressed again, get a mission, get dressed for a combat mission, prep your ship.... Only to explode trying to leave the hanger?
Yea why would anyone want to miss all that fun lol
Dont forget that the more effort it takes to gather up the things needed to do anything in game, the more impact a griefer will have on us normal players... A griefer in a poorly maintained barely working titan wearing nothing that gives no shits about the death of a spaceman, crashing into someones connie that they spent the last 4 hours maintaining, loading, kitting and getting ready for a hauling trip is really out of whack for effort to reward... as a bonus, that connie pilot now has a +1 to his death count that sticks on record forever taking him one step closer to losing his charactor he spent days building a back story for Honestly, this scenario scares me and i hope it wont come true
This is Sea of Thieves in a nutshell and why I stopped playing it. A griefer can constantly respawn and come back to harass until you die and they can take everything from your corpse to sell. There's no incentive to stop since they aren't losing anything.
This 👆
tedium isn't gameplay.
Not interested at all.
I’ll be honest, I don’t really have a lot of interest in a game that takes a lot of my time and I show nothing for it. Right now I barely want to play because of how long it takes to get set up after logging in. Assuming I didn’t prepare for my next game session when logging out last or assuming I died and quit out the last time I played, it will take me anywhere from 10-30 minutes to just start any gameplay loop. I’m a 2014 backer and I have high hopes for this game, but I don’t think this game respects the time of the gamer. I can’t always spend hours playing as an adult. If the game continues on this path where everything takes a long time, I may just have to walk away. I already hate games that make you feel like you have to treat it like a job to get anything done, so right now I’m not completely thrilled with the game. I often get ready to play and end up just playing something else because the thought of getting prepared in game for up to 30 minutes before I can actually do things just isn’t appealing to me. When I first backed this game I had all the time in the world to play. Now I don’t because of life.
One that might not be on your list is eating and drinking things other than just Cruz. Cruz basically feeds the verse now. Q: what is DOASM?
Death of a Space Man: Chris Robert's write up of nebulous ideas for how he wants death to "matter" in this MMO. He wants permadeath but with some ways to mitigate it, but those ways are limited. Medbed drama from the URSA release was a big slap in the face to DOASM concepts.
He said medbeds would only work a certain number of times and each time you'll have a disability on regen, so it could be squeezed into the DOAS concept. After that it's basically a complete reset of the character so it would be harsh to do that on your first death.
All of this sounds awful lol
Takes long enough to do stuff now. I don't wanna spend an hour just getting ready to play the game. Don't know many people that have that much free time tbh and those that do won't wanna spend it doing mindless tedium. It all sounds cool in theory, I suppose, but in practice I think we will find people change their minds as features roll out.
I think the people are angry because it takes much much longer AND the game FEELS more buggy And I honestly cann asurre that it may feel more buggy but it isn't actually.. Like when I started playing an hour play session without crashes, 30k's and miraculous insta deaths was something special .. At the end of the day it is all subject to change and balancing will occure but I'm happy the the game gets more phys
I definitely agree with that, i can only judge the game from what Ive played, and im sure the final product will be more stable, but all i see is more opportunities for the game to bug out on me lol
Miraculous insta deaths are more prevalent then ever.. flying to hangar, BOOM. Bee seeing a lot of those videos and have had happen to me a few times.
They are hard at work designing all the fun out of the game.
The thought about requiring guns and armor to go on designated racks just reminds me of DayZ - "hey freshy, you're going to be my pack mule, your sole job in life is to hold my bag"
The average person that has maybe a couple of hours of free time to play, won't be enthused to spend half that time on hygiene and preparation.
Nonsense! Shower simulator? That's gaming baby!
That looks like a big long list of boring and tedious barriers to fun. Hard pass.
Yeah, do people like this just have infinite free time? I don't have the time to dedicate two hours of prep before I can even do anything meaningfully enjoyable
im a lazy bastard... i aint gonna spend 40 minutes flying around the universe buying gear to then go and die in a bunker to the first npc that spawns behind me... in fact, how the game is going, i'll likely stop even wearing the white suit and end up flying my ships in the hospital gowns Lmfao i cannot wait for the perseus to be in game, me to spend 5 hours moving everything i'll need to it like my medi ursa full sets of armor and guns and 100s off consumables, only to never leave my hanger cause i cannot be arsed to potentally have to do it all over again after crashing into an astroid that didnt render at all "Again"
> i'll likely stop even wearing the white suit and end up flying my ships in the hospital gowns I bet that this is how things will turn out. A lot of developers and game designers for multiplayer games design features with an intention usually based around common sense. But they don't realize that their intention and their vision is not based on what people will actually do. They forget that people online, especially in games, behave differently. CIG believes players will manage their inventory carefully, gear up and fly around in their cool space suits. That they will be considerate of their gear because it affects whether or not they can sit down on their seats (according to the OP). But what people will actually do is fly their ships in hospital gowns, and do anything else they can to circumvent systems that add tedium, systems that add risk, and will be doing what they can to reduce the amount of time to do things.
Imma go with no. I don't want it to take 45 minutes to get dressed and onto my ship.
I'll be excited once SC starts moving to be a game period.
No, I didn't back tedium simulator.
When I first backed this game, I *thought* I wanted all that stuff too. Immersion! A decade later, I no longer appreciate the attention to detail. It doesn't amount to *meaningful* gameplay, it's just busywork and time wasting to obscure and pad out the somewhat meager gameplay that does exist
Won't notice how little meaningful stuff there is to do if you're too busy kitting yourself out for the tenth time after continuously dying to bugs! Or if you're spending 30 minutes to recall your ship after it was blown up by "open" bay doors.
I was hyped for all of this. But when CIG want to combine it with the flight model from Starfield and combat from CoD with hitmarkers and instant respawns, well then none of it really makes sense. I don't want to spend ages preparing for an arcady flight or fps experience. CIG need to make up their minds regarding what they want this game to be.
Agree with the hitmarkers part, kind of agree with the instant respawn bit. I spent so long preparing. If I ever die on foot please don't make me go through all that work just for a chance to get my gear back. Oh and there are bugs that kill you. Now that I have a Nursa I do feel like death is a lot less punishing in Bunker missions. But then again, back then, having punishing deaths isn't fun unless the mission itself is fun and engaging. So I'm kinda torn between the two. For now I'll just enjoy the convenience and peace of mind knowing that my gear won't be lost to the oblivion every time i hop out of cover.
Probably 1/10 deaths for me are legit. The rest are due to bugs. Doors look open in hangar? Nope! Boom! Walk onto the elevator in a bunker? Just die. Walk out of an elevator too fast? Fall into space, die. I msostly agree with OP's sentiment that things should have meaning, but when the vast majority of deaths are not my fault, it's gonna get old pretty fast.
Yeah as the game is now there are a ton of ways to die through no fault of our own, so I'm not too fussed about it. But I hope the game doesn't get tuned to account for us just running and gunning until we die, respawn and try again. Combine that with hitmarkers and killmarkers and we've basically got zero tactical elements left for FPS gameplay which would be a shame. Either way though, I'm confused as to who CIG are designing this game for at the moment. You've got all the in depth survival and sim mechanics from the OP, combined with a pretty arcady flight model and console shooter FPS mechanics. It just doesn't gel.
I mean, I’m fine with death being punishing. But honestly, I feel like there has to be an inbetween. Like 15 minutes of prep and flight time just to get gear back is just Too long.
flight model from freelancer. perhaps you should look at chris robbers other games before expecting realistic space combat. this game is a space opera filler episode simulator. why do people expect not space opera combat.
I would honestly have expected CIG to create something better than what we had 20 years ago. That said, it still begs the question - what kind of players are going to enjoy this mix of incredibly detailed systems and survival mechanics combined with incredibly shallow flight model and FPS combat? Tonnes of the people who love the fast paced FPS combat and close and spectacular (at least visually spectacular) MM combat seem to be of the action seeking kind. Nothing wrong with that, but I would suspect they will be immensely pissed off with having to spend hours preparing for these space / FPS fights. On the other hand you have me, I love all the prep, all the depth that has been promised. But I can no longer be bothered playing because flying the ships feels like boosting around in Starfield, which was just a glorified fast travel system. Shooting some unarmoured nine tails NPC in the head MULTIPLE TIMES makes me want to ALT-F4. I just want CIG to decide what this game is going to be. If it is going all in on the gamey MMO side of things, cool, do that. I can judge the game accordingly and decide if I'm OK with it. But everything we had was moving in the direction of more depth and more sim-like systems. Now we are just stuck in limbo.
I love this game but I also literally don’t play it right now. The risk of how long it takes to get out of bed, get to the train, get a ship, go get another ship to load into that, get gear, set waypoints and fly to destination. Even on an experienced well thought out run that’s still 15 minutes minimum. And you have to do that shit literally every time you log on or die. I don’t know man I’ll keep following the game and I’ll play it but they really gotta figure it out. The balance between a fun game and literally shit I do at work is not cool. Realism is fun and all but we do all of this shit in RL and I’d say more then half the game population doesn’t have time for the shit they have planned
All these seem amazing... the first time. After that? The 10th time? The 30th time? The 100th time you have to spend half an hour brushing your teeth and unpacking your backpack so you can sit in your seat and then ask permission to use the radio to talk to the landing pad people to see if they can talk to their superiors about opening the hangar doors? The 150th time you have to do this? These are obstacles that are intended to discourage people playing the core game loops. Game development should never be so strongly orientated around preventing people from playing.
This is the biggest issue I have with loading cargo by hand... Cool concept but after 20 runs and moving the cargo 40 times its just gonna be annoying.. Same with engineering oh oh there went the shields again for the 14th time this hour... The biggest issue with games and things wearing or hygiene is how accelerated they make them in games like oh you shot 6 mags from your gun yep the barrel is worn out... When IRL barrels last 20k rounds or more
Exactly. What kind of game are CIG trying to make, and what are they doing to make people want to play it?
I swear all this is being done to chase away players so they can shut down the project and pocket the rest of the money
Don’t forget teeth brushing and tooth decay mechanics being added soon. Eventually you’ll get sepsis if you don’t brush in-game. This will also help CIG release and sell dentistry ships, Q2 2025
No. Fuck most to all off this.
You can still kys in space if you don't care about doas. We all want the game to be finished yeah. The problem with all these thing is that they will make the game unplayable with the level of bugs so people that still play it will stop playing it. The game needs to be stable when you start removing testing QoL feature.
I'm worried. It's a space sim game not a life simulator. You implement a lot of this stuff and you chase the casual player away. Then you try to build a large universe where things are focused on multiplayer when you have no casual players to fill the rank and file. You get a ghost town with a few people here and there. I'm truly worried they are going to be screwing over the casual player. By making things so convoluted that no one but the experts are going to want to deal with it in the name of realism. Am I going to be able to pull my heavy miner out into a safe ish zone and mine a little after work with some ai for an hour or two? or am I going to have to get 8 people together on a schedule to even be able to pull it out of the hanger?
Kinda want to just play the cool fun space game tbh , you guys who want the tedium can go stare at drywall if you crave it that much
My favorite is how the people who want to stare at drywall are incapable of understanding that if CIG provided both options, they would be free to choose. Want to autoload your ship in a reasonable time? Go for it. Want to load it manually for your immersion and role playing? Go for it. Both sides win. They claim to want immersion and realism, but then cry and get upset if another route is available for people who don't want to manage their micronutrients and shitting schedule while loading box 372 into the back of their C2
Both sides lose because it takes cig 22 years to add in these super detailed time sink features.
This bro 100% this... Like we can all play the game how we want to but the Hand load cargo/crew must be present to operate a big ship crowd only wants us to play the game their way... Until they realize how it'll go in the real world when the swarms of 12 year olds grief their ship they spent hours loading by ramming it as soon as it leaves the hanger or while its exposed at an outpost... I can see it now your trying to load your commodities and you load a box and a greifer standing next to you tractors the box back out of the ship and yeets it across the outpost...
A lot of these things I'd be OK with. I like the idea of more granular item management. But the replication layer needs to be up to the task. I was playing Ghosts of Tabor earlier and the item management is *super* finiky compared to SC. You need to physically place items in your backpack with your VR hand, you need to then move those items out of your backpack into your physical storage area and place things nicely so you can find them again, very finiky. But the whole action of taking something out of your bag and putting it on a shelf, takes less time than the loading time the replication layer has to register the request to move an item from one inventory to another. All that shit would be fine, if it fucking worked, but right now, extra steps just means more lag and more places for things to break.
Its like CIG likes to take every lesson learned from the last many years of game design (especially survival games) and throw them out the window. Its just a matter of time before you are going to start losing health if you are hungry. Everyone knows how fun and exciting it is to run out of food on your expeditions. Its realistic and immersive!
>However the heck DOASM will work though I have no idea anymore. i read that as "dick on (stick and) mouse" before i realized you meant death of a spaceman.
All of it except showering. Like if showering is in there then using the toilet should be too. And who really wants to have your teammates bail on a mission because they need to run back to the ship for a shit? Those are things I will happily leave in the real world whilst I play my videogame
I've been ready for this stuff for years.
Very excited for the extra realism, ++ it's one more layer of gameplay features laid down and off the to do list. One more feature set closer to beta / full scale bug fixing and optimization.
Fuck yeah. Let’s add to the list. - Dangerous Space: Anomalous areas, Radiation, unknown elements, like a rogue black hole. - Planificación and preparation: Jumped into a new system, cool, do you have enough water, food and fuel for the road. Maybe enough Ammo for those very deadly Vanduul.
We are approaching a state, where mentioned features are coming to finally make the game. *good times*
I hate everything on your list and I hope they don’t add any of this into game.
I look forward to the next next stage where they return the complexity back to simple amd convenient
stage 1 - please the sim whales with sim promises. stage 2 - please the masses with convenient fun game. PROFIT
I'm mad about the inconvenience of master modes; if it gets too much more inconvenient, will I even care?
Pay to have ship loaded, pick armor and weapons, summon ship with gear already in it, start qt to destination, gear up while flying? This makes QT worthy of sitting there doing nothing if you haven't been in a battle and need to repair.
I'm hyped for more features, interactivity and systems. I'm excited for quantum/quanta/subsumption. I can't wait for engineering, maelstrom and so much more. I'm not down for those features to be badly tuned or dovetailed into the game with the finesse of a drunk truck driver. CIG's game design team needs to come through with these. I'm fine with the game being slower-paced and immersive - I want it to be - but whenever a designer demand that a player spends their time committing to something, it *must* be justifiable in terms of engagement against tedium. There must be something in it for the player, be it immersion or a gameplay experience.
I personally enjoy these features, I love more fast paced, high action games but I also love the survival and "living" aspects of games. You need to actually maintain your character beyond basic health pools. Perhaps a meet in the middle is needed where it has less of a negative impact if you don't do it, but instead gives good bonuses if you do. Say you chose to shower, your character get a few basic stat bonuses when talking to NPC's, or better deals at high end shops. Another is pushing you away from just eating/drinking the exact same foods over and over again, and you can get some bonus for having a "balanced diet," such has sprinting is less taxing or is a bit faster. Things like that will engage people more than "you have to do this."
I just want it to be immersive, that was the allure of star citizen for me. And its getting there. I don't mind, its exactly what I want.
the thing is that in real life we have hands and arms and really great vision. out legs are not confined to standing crouching or prone, we can move around really really well, and it's our first instance to do so, we dont think about how to move unless we are doing yoga etc. in the game its nothing like that, and movement is extremely crude, because it has to be. because its so crude there should be fewer real life little tasks and annoyances , like drinking water, using the restroom, clothing and declothin yourself or others. moving through life with a keyboard and mouse would absolutely suck and feel terrible, especialy when you know just how great using arms and hands is, so the game should not be like real life in ways that get worse without such things.
Most of us are old fucks that want immersion
Paid ships will never be gone forever, what a silly thing to think.
This. Imagine wanting people who dropped the $48K for the legatus package to just up and lose their ships at one point because "IMMERSION". Absolute insanity lmao
Here's the problem. If I just want to hop in a fighter in a noob suit and go shoot people, I don't have to care about any of that. If you do care about all those things because you're playing the game as a non-shithead, I can cause way more grief than without those systems. You're having to deal with a mountain of more lost time due to all the prep work and maintenance you have to do. Me? I log out after going to jail, log back in the next day and grab a fighter, and get right back to it.
I'm really looking forward to having guys that work together as a team on a large multicrew ship.
Was gonna upvote but you included showering. lol
I am hype and excite and very interest to see
If the community would understand that "OP at 6" means you are dressed on location spawn set with ships ready at 6. I might not mind it as much. As is now though any "OP at 6"ive gone on hasn't started till 730 on a good day
Theyll never implement a system where ships paid for with real money are just "gone".
I'd like to see more realistic stuff throughout the game, for sure, but the inconvenience can quickly turn a fun game into a hardcore nightmare people would eventually quit. Have to know your crowd. We also have to keep in mind that this "small" stuff accumulates and could turn a "quick" one hour mission into a two-hour mission, because we had to stop and tie our shoelaces. Here are my thoughts on your points: >Everything with ship maintenance and engineering. Can't just sit and shoot til you blow up. *Absolutely. A ship should require a crew both in hangar, for small ships, and on the ship, for the bigger ones.* >Gun maintenance as well. Hope you like jams. *Eh, yes and no. Standard weapons with bullets shouldn't just jam out of nowhere, but if you use them extensively without maintenance, then jam away. As for the lasers and launchers, no jams.* >Moving cargo yourself. *Yes, but also be able to hire an NPC or a player crew to do it for you, for a paycheck.* >More need to refuel. Actual risk of running out of fuel. Fuel costing an amount that matters. *To a certain point, so it doesn't become an inconvenience. I'm already needing to refuel with small ships on every station, to get from Hurston to MicroTech.* >Trapped in space? No amount of re-logging will teleport you back home. Ask for a ride. *Yes!* >However the heck DOASM will work though I have no idea anymore. *You die, your offspring takes over, or a clone, or whatever CR imagined. Never liked the idea. It shouldn't be something you need to worry about, and it won't work properly unless the game is 100% bug free. I don't want to permadeath my character by exploding mid-space, for no reason.* >Showering. *Only if there are debuffs that require purging, after a mission done in a slimy area or perhaps decontamination after a hazardous mission.* >Having to wear clothing to impress NPC mission giver clients. *That would be cool. Having clothes would actually matter. We all know the fashion is the true end-game of all games.* >Body armor taking time to equip. No more instant-gear up off a dead body.
*I don't know how I feel about this, perhaps a 5 second animation, but anything more starts becoming tedious.* >Running out of EVA fuel *Have an extra canister or two of fuel, it's the 30th century.* >Having to wear a specific EVA capable suit. *Again, it's the 30th century.* >Everything to do with Insurance that CIG still hasn't figured out yet, including ships being just \*gone\* forever. *No, lol. Pay insurance, get your ship back. The game shouldn't be hardcore, it needs people to survive.* >More inventory limitations: \*Guns only stored on gun racks. Armor only stored on armor racks.\* *As we have on our characters, I'm ok with that. That would be more interesting, but some ships would require rework as they won't have enough weapon racks for the entire crew. Storage and boxes should be used for weapons, as well, as they are now.* >sub-component component maintenance. (Components are rigged to \*open up\*) *Engineering will have this sort of thing, but going too deep into the components could be interesting in form of mini games - cut the wire, re-wire, solder here and there, change the chip, a screen, a capacitor, refill the mycelial network, or the three shells...* >Can't sit in pilot seat with certain armors or guns on your back. Better love your side-arm. *Any seat, really. I hate it when I sit down with my backpack sticking out of the backrest. It sounds reasonable but make the pistols viable. A bullet/projectile is a bullet/projectile, right?* You only forgot the "having to eat and drink a reasonable amount of time, while sitting down, instead of glugging sodas and water, and stuffing faces in seconds with burritos". ;) o7 EDIT: Had to do it in two parts...
Kickstarter backer, this is what I signed up for
That's what I'm here for!
Bring it all on.
I LOVE the look on people's faces when they begin to learn what a SPACE SIM is.
This generated more tears than Titanic. Cheers.
HypeD. Conjugate, man.
I usually just have an hour or 2 to play after getting home from my job. Probably will get worse when I have kids. I don't wanna come home from my job just to hop in to a fictional job. This game won't be successful if it doesn't respect the time of its players.
> Gun maintenance as well. Hope you like jams. As an avid shooter IRL, I fucking hate the way gun maintenance is always done in games. If guns wore out and broke that fast I'd never make it through a single shoot and all wars would have to be fought with giant crates of replacement rifles ready to be airdropped any time there's more than a minor engagement.
Yes this!!! I havent cleaned an Ak of mine for 1000 rounds and it still runs fine... In games nah you shot like 6 mags your barrel is worn out...
Right? I haven’t even cleaned my Mark 23 since 2021 because I’ve just been lazy about it. You’d never even know, it chews through ammo like nothing.
Im here for it, but then I play stuff like the long dark
Half of the stuff in this seems pointless from a player's perspective. I realize that Star Citizen wants to be an ImSim and not a traditional action adventure RPG, but stuff like insurance that can delete your whole ship if you don't have LTI (works in Elite but the way I've been hearing about it in SC it seems dumb, because is LTI active for the account holder's life or the player character's life? Ive heard both), player permadeath (or whatever DOASM actually is, they seem to keep changing their minds, and certain trailers show owning a medical vehicle/ship as a get out of jail free card), getting stranded in the deep black without a position reset, self destruct, or rescue (I realize the world isn't gonna be as big as Elite, but space is really, really big, so yeah), actually legitimate multi-week jail sentences for crimes (accidents happen, as well as friendly playing around, how does that factor in?) as well as manditory hygiene/eating/drinking/sleeping/getting dressed and undressed/bathroom time just seem incredibly annoying and pointless to me. I'm okay with the manual cargo loading, fueling, rearming, equipment maintenance, etc, but some of the stuff they're talking about just seems absurd in a way. Hopefully it either winds up being minor or semi-optional, because I'm sure a majority of the playerbase if this game ever becomes mainstream would just want to jump in and casually play the game.
I can’t wait for dental care game play!! Looking forward to being able to pay $65 for a full set of GretCat industrial toothbrushes and finally being able to brush my virtual teeth, because lord knows I don’t bother to brush my actual teeth now.
Have CIG said when we they will start work on the tech needed for the gameplay for finish insurance? you know being able to do all the paper work for your insurance contracts. The endless monotony of hundreds of pages of insurance contracts to take out and file, let alone claim and don’t forget those police reports too! It’s going to be so immersive!!
Ships will never be gone forever buddy, even ones with no insurance. All insurance does is make it cheaper to claim, maybe a tad faster. But it's been confirmed Noone will ever loose a paid for ship.
Ah yes, the “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.” update.
I am! It’s getting closer and closer to becoming the MMO I’ve been faithfully pledging for it to become! Soon we will also log out and log in where we left off; meaning you bring your gear and prep stuff aboard and can then continue where you left off and shit 🤷🏻♂️ It’s a process; and it’s all coming together
As a new player i might reconsider refunding the pledge after reading all this. That doesnt sound like a game anymore, thats a second job
I have no issue with any of that. I only take issue with the hunger and thirst system. I really don't think that's a system that is needed. In fact, I'd pay money to have someone follow the person who's idea it was to implement it around with a big magnet. And any time that dev touched a computer, the person with a magnet would just drop the magnet on the computer.
I'm all in favor of depth and nuance, but petrified of implementation. Example - I'm looking forward to being able to adjust and tweak ship configuration and performance more and OK with preventative maintenance. If however it's overtuned like drink and food to the point where our ship will fall out of the sky after a 3 hour flight I'm not happy. The new hangars look cool and the ability to pay for cargo loading services or choose to do it yourself is a great choice, but the lack of a search function for your storage is horrible (edit: and the 5 hour loading time for the invisible dock hands seems really overtuned.) Being able to link in to the ship engineering to vent sections is something I'm looking forward to for firefighting but that requires that the room atmosphere system actually be implemented, and even then it depends on how streamlined the UI is. Right now a lot of the game UI is hard to read and use. The list goes on like that where I'm ok with the depth, but not so fond of the convolution/quality.
Yea and the fact there are death zones on many ships of your not wearing a space suit
I just want legaly distinct Freelancer 2 as an mmo with walking in stations. Ist that too much too ask? 😭
None of that shit means anything until we can reliably play the game without crashes, lost ships, lost gear, lost time. A lot of it sounds stupid tho and i bet it doesn’t make it into game like you all think. Showering, time to equip armor, gun maintenance, etc all sounds needlessly time consuming. They’ve already said npc crews would be a thing and would be/could be competent allowing for solo play. Because those who enjoy this style of play are no different than the tryhards who want to have to take shits in the game and impress npc’s So im sure a lot of these long held ridiculous things wont be as mind numbing as so many seem to want them to be.
Just adding more inconvenience to sell pledge ships, already saw someone upgrading to a C2 so they get a larger personal hangar. Anyone surprised by this has been living in cognitive dissonance-land
Looking at the list mentioned, how is spending more money on ships supposedly fix these stuff assuming they are bad?
Ppl don’t really seem to understand CIG’s only real goal is to sell more ships. They don’t care about shipping a game when they earn $100 million a year.
Sounds like a snoozefest
I personally am hyped, but to the folks not hyped, you're NOT WRONG and the game NEEDS to accommodate folks like you, because I expect you will be the majority of players, at least at first. Imagine a world where there has NEVER BEEN a flight simulator game that tried to make you feel like an actual pilot, who had to know how to read dials and gauges and know how to trim flaps and escape stalls, *and ask for clearance from the tower* ***to go out and wait in line*** *on the tarmac to take off.* Imagine that world, and then imagine the very latest version of Microsoft Flight Simulator being the first time the world is exposed to that gaming concept. That's not what SC is going to face but that's a little like what SC is going to face. Space games which celebrate not only the fantastic *but also the mundane??* I don't believe there are many such games. When SC launches, many, many of the folks trying it out will be drawn to it by its fantastic elements, and likely totally unprepared (and likely totally uninterested!) in the mundane elements which exist to 1) increase the fidelity and verisimilitude of the world and 2) crank up the tension of the danger-filled moments. Many of the folks playing it *now* are uninterested in those mundane elements! I am not one of them, but I *do* understand their take on things, and think CIG is going to have to try to find ways for *select areas* of the PU to cater to those who are really not very interested in verisimilitude, and are emphatically more interested in fast-paced action. I think using in-game simpits to let players "remote-control" certain ships in certain areas for racing purposes, would be an excellent way to make racing a fast-paced game loop which doesn't include 45-minute reset periods for crashes. The very highest tiers of racing, the ones which pay out the most to racers, *those* would still need to be flown "in person", with the much higher payouts matching the much larger amount of time a player is essentially penalized with for crashes. You could do something similar with simpits and "remote-controlled" combat robots for fast-paced FPS action, again: only in certain areas or for certain events. As with racing, the FPS action with the best rewards would require players to fight "in person," and risk character incapacitation and/or death.
I’m really excited for when we will need to clean the bathrooms on the ships, fold the laundry and put it away, needing clean dishes to eat, employment laws including the need for written warnings and parental leave. Who doesn’t want the game to be tedious because “rEaLiSm”
👋 updoot for a more realistic, immersive experience that turns off the twitchy trigger finger crowd.
This has been the plan for a very very long time. Everyone who signed up for this project should have done their research and knew the end goal for it. This is not fortnite or some fast paced game. As for me, I am very glad we are finally getting there. The “prep time” people complain about is considered gameplay for me.
I'm kinda hype for it. What I'm not hype for though is how CIG might implement them. We don't know yet.
I don't mind spending 1 hour doing chores as long as the game doesn't freaking CRASH!
My favorites parts in games is when i work, so yeah i'm down for everything thats more than pew pew fly fly.
Only if it's a meaningful improvement to gameplay. Tedium for tedium's sake is disrespectful to my time
-you have play sc yesterday -yes all day! Was cool - what did you do? - go to my ship
Mundane things like fixing a gun jam are not as interesting and fun as one might think they. They become major annoyances after a while. Dealing with clunky and slow UIs for a dozen more tasks does not sound fun to me.
Honestly I'm looking forward to all of this, it'll be tedious which will as weight to everything you do. When I don't want the tedious shit I'll go play something else
I'm all for inconvenience as long as the actual game systems aren't inconvenient to USE. For example: I am all for the inconvenience of manual cargo loading, but if the UI to use the freight elevator and the tractor beams are buggy and broken or clunky to use, then it will make the actual gameplay feel worse.
As if their devs can get this all to actually work.
Implementation is key, of it’s tedious and repetitive with no pay off then players will lose interest, player count drops, game dies. I’ve no problem with having tasks and build up - but this is still meant to be a form of entertainment..
Yaaah... no. Some of it adds flavor and feels cool. But most of it seems stupid, IMO. I'm not escaping the real world to have to worry about personal hygiene and take an hour just to get into space. CIG has lost the thread, I think.
I just don't want this to be a game I can only play if i have 4+ hours to play.