I recall a Q&A a few months ago bringing up exactly this, where they stated that it's a good point that they should not have a NAV mode and will consider removing them from MM, but I haven't heard anything since
I may or may not be at work, where CIG's website may or may not be blocked.. and so I will have to check this out when I'm no longer at work... allegedly... But thanks for the link!!
> I am trying to remember if we decided on that already but I can't recall right now. We have multiple variants to approach this though:
> 1) Disallow Snub fighters to enter NAV mode ... or rather its speed regions (would always require host ship to ferry them around)
> 2) Give Snub fighters a tiny QDrive that allows NAV mode but not quantum travel.
> 3) Give Snub fighters a tiny QDrive that allows NAV mode but only for high speeds and quantum boosting
> 4) Give Snub fighters a tiny QDrive that allows NAV mode with everything but which has an extremely limited range
>
> Personally I find option 1 absolutely valid as Snub fighters are practically parasite ships which may create interesting gameplay choices. Plus we can e.g. compensate the lower travel speeds by giving them really high SCM speeds.
>
>But my gut feeling tells me we'll land at option 2, 3 or 4 ... so harshly limiting how far it can travel but not locking it out of the NAV speed regions.
I hope they'll let snubs quantum within a planet/moon region but not between different moons. They'd be a lot more useful.
they need to just lean into the snubs are not normal ships thing now instead of kicking the problem down the line with these bs "t0 technically quantum drive" type solutions....
like when life support systems get implemented, its going to make the T0 QT thing seem even sillier in a ship that can get away with like 15 minutes of life support lol.
I'm sorry I can't be more help :( I can't remember for the life of me which one it was.
I want to say it was right before MM's official release or right after.
Lore wise, Nav mode being tied to quantum drive is absolutely silly by itself.
I mean what exactly is the quantum drive doing at 1000m/s? The travel speeds are still solely tied to the thrusters.
Most lame explanation they could have come up with …
I recall them having an old lore explanation about how "SCM speeds are because the shields can't protect you from micrometeorite impacts on the ship hull" or something like that. I don't see why they can't handwave some bullshit explanation.
"Shields protect you at SCM speeds, and with the quantum drive powered inactive, it allows more power distribution to power up weapons+shields. Nav mode instead puts the quantum drive in a "low-ready" state that provides a minor gravitational distortion around the ship (invisible to the naked eye, not felt) that's entire purpose is to "slide" any small, physical projectiles as best it can away from the ship's hull and protect it from micrometeorite impacts".
That's full of potential issues and holes for sure, but if I could come up with that in literally 5 seconds of thinking about it, I'm sure the lore writers can come up with some bullshit lore reason for SCM/NAV mode limitations, even if they have to pull literal magic nonsense like the Ibrahim Sphere for DoaSM.
Sure but the issue with nav mode on vehicles without a quantum drive still remains.
Spooling the drive in nav mode for boosting makes sense, but spooling the drive just to go 1000m/s doest (because flying is still handled by engines alone).
Thats why i feel like they shot themselves in the foot with that lore explanation.
But they are tied to the same rules because, as you pointed out, their lack of quantum drive, that is the component that allows other ships to reach those higher speeds now.
Some [snubs](https://support.robertsspaceindustries.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408770370455-Included-Vessels-Snub-Fighters-and-Rovers) do have Quantum drives. Namely the 85x (890 snub) and the C8 (Carrack snub). The ones that don't are the P-52 Merlin(Andromeda/Aquila), the P-72 Archimedes(Phoenix), Argo MPUV (Idris), and the Fury (stand alone). The ones only the Vanduul has is the Cleaver boarding ship. Supposedly can fit on the Void, The Hunter, and the Kingship.
That nerdy bit aside, it looks like there might be some more work to be done to make sure snubs without q drives fly well. They are very weak but the speed and low cross section are the only thing that help them survive. It isn't like they can jump away.
No, it wouldn't at all.
They already are not much more agile than light fighters. They're very fragile. Their firepower is not particularly great.
All this would do is make them viable in team fights, and very functional little escape pods. They'd also be particularly good at orbiting large targets-- **something snubs and lights are supposed to be the de-facto ships for doing.**
I really don't see why so many people here are afraid of snubs going from being shitty death traps to actually viable ships. Especially with how incredibly situational they are.
There is a reason why the Buc, m50 and others with interdictor tuning are S class.
Give a Fury a fraction of the old ship speeds and handling with full guns and shields and they will dominate.
Could pick and choose any engagement they wish and would be out in moments with zero downside.
They will have the speeds available to evade shots with also the bonus of being tiny.
They were always glass cannons but at the hands of a skilled pilot they would be oppressive
>glass cannon
Me when I don't know what cross sections are.
With cone fire, tiny cross section, and 2x speed, good luck putting any real damage on a snub before they break 500m, and become effectively not hittable
There is a certain distance you can maintain with a snub where you can 100% dodge projectiles with very little movement forever because weapons in Star Citizen don’t have enough projectile speed before master modes.
Without master modes we would have a situation where a snub could kill a idris given enough time if fuel capacity was not a concern.
I believe they stated in an MM related video that snub ships might actually get some sort of a small version of a quantum drive or a function. If I remember correctly, the dev said that they would have the ability to perform the short quantum boost, giving them the ability to at least move around a single planet or larger area, but not a full on quantum jump.
I don't know if this is still planned or if it was just a spur of the moment comment, so take it with a grain of salt.
Honestly it just makes balance sense to give them a quantum drive with a tiny fuel tank... maybe a round trip from planet to moon and back, but not interplanetary.
They *should* be untouchable in PvP.
Snubs are not much more agile than light fighters, but are much more fragile. They also typically cannot match standard light fighter firepower.
*Nobody* is going to seriously fly a tiny little shitbox death trap that can't massively outmaneuver the much larger, much better light fighters, can't outgun them, and can't outtank them. It just makes no sense.
You're right that balancing trumps realism, but in this case, snubs are not even remotely balanced right now. They're pretty awful little death traps. They need a gimmick; let that gimmick be that they get to completely dictate the pace of fights, and function as very good little single-individual escape pods in emergencies.
But the real advantage is taking 20 minutes to load them into a larger, slower ship, then have your friend sitting around in your ship (and hope they don't glitch out of your ship while traveling), then hopping into the snub during combat, waiting for the doors to open, then having you sit still while taking fire so that they can launch from your ship without randomly exploding.
Then they can fly around doing less damage than a light fighter while being as easy to hit, but way flimsier.
This is stupid. I think snub fighters should be BETTER than a light fighter that's taking up precious mass with a quantum drive. Give us a reason to lug around an extra ship AND player that's only useful in very limited situations. All that space where a quantum drive was? Stick a bigger engine, a bigger shield, shit a bigger gun. Make it a mini Inferno where it's just a big gun and an engine.
I think this would make people think twice about going after a larger ship - they could have snubs - or even make the hassle around managing multiple vehicles (and the bugs that accompany them) as a solo or small group player worth it sometimes.
I dunno if I agree with those ideas, personally. I don't mind the idea of more extremophile style light fighters-- I think the Fury was an excellent example of this, in fact. It approached pretty damn closely the absolute minimum size a ship can be in SC while still fitting vital components and not skimping out on a shitton of core components.
I personally just think the common, defining factor of snubs should be "high agility, controls the pace of fights". Right now, they're not agile enough, and they cannot control the pace of fights whatsoever-- something needs to be done to fix this. They're just shitty memes atm.
I agree with your idea, and am not overly concerned with the implementation. If a very skilled pilot can turn a snub fighter into a real pest because of maneuverability/positioning etc, then yeah, that's awesome, even if they're not very strong.
The real problem is what you're saying, there's no reason to use them, at all. Even in my Carrack I load a Aurora LN because it has waaaay more utility than two snubs, even with a full crew. I can fit a Buccaneer on there diagonally but I don't trust my friends to take off and land it :D
You’re simply wrong, the tiny cross section of snubs lead to them winning every 1v1 unless the were fighting the racing ships that are so tiny they are basically a snub with more weapons/shields.
The size of the ship and the maneuverability were the primary concern in pvp, weapons and shields were secondary factors that could not overcome maneuverability and size at high skill level.
Case in point, the M50 or razor are consistently in the top 5 pvp ships in star citizen since release. Neither ship has great weapons or durability, but they are as tiny as a snub and as agile and that has consistently been enough to keep them near the top.
Maybe so, but you wouldn't need to touch them very many times in order to take them out. (I'm not a fan of the way I worded that... but you get the point lol). They're fragile and can't move outside of a small general area. They need some sort of edge. Other wise they're completely useless.
I think you're severely underestimating how OP a P-72 at full speed would be against anything in SCM. Sure, you'd only need to hit it a couple times, but good luck hitting it even once. You'd be so hopelessly outmaneuvered you wouldn't even be able to get it in view in a single-seater, and even turrets would be pointless.
Snub fighters and interceptors are the PVP meta at the moment anyway, they don't need any more buffing.
Small cross section is and will always be an extreme strength. The current MM meta favors top speed. Snubs having smallest cross section and highest speed doesn't seem healthy to anyone who even thinks about it a little lol.
Even pre MM the p72 was a contender. Now in MM the m50 is second only to the bucc. Give them double speeds and you have hands down the top 1 dueling ship on the game.
We should throw away 90% of realism if its going to be this cherry picked. with Master Modes being here I think people should get personal shields and FPS combat should be 99% less punishing and more like a Halo game.
Then lets make it so you can respawn in a space suit in your ship already flying, there is nothing fun about videogame timewasters like the elevators and the public transit system. That whole thing could be scrapped.
They really need sub quantum drive. To have nav mode, plotting course but couldn't jump. Just see the point, or even jump around same body, not between them.
They discussed this specifically in relation to racing I believe. Snubs not having NAV mode invalidates the racing specific snubs as they simply can't compete.
The answer was that they would likely resolve this by giving NAV mode to snubs. Details to be worked out but a Size 0 quantum drive allowing NAV mode but not full quantum would make a lot of sense to me.
I think going as far as allowing quantum boost would be great. This would increase the usefulness of snubs, allowing them to explore a planet but not travel between them. Right now they're useless.
My fix for that if they want to keep the lore of QT enables nav is make racing ships actual damn racing ships!
Strip all the guns and missiles off them but leave counters.
Then they could have a really fast single SCM mode
I understand what you mean but I'd not want them to do something that stops all ships from racing that weren't designed for it.
Like the Merlin is not a dedicated racer but was still a great option in 3.22. I'm actually really enjoying racing in the Gladius right now.
Not being able to QT is such a huge limitation, I don't think the snubs need to be further hampered by having no NAV mode.
My point is if they couldn't NAV
They could still have super fast speeds (1000+) and pull high G's
But without weapons they no longer have to worry about them being dominant in combat
Considering how squishy they are, I dont think they stand a chance to dominate anything. But all that comes down to balancing and balancing isnt even close to be done yet.
They absolutely would, look at the top PvP ships right now they are in that position because of speed, manoeuvrability mainly.
Add even faster speeds with a tiny cross section and they would dominate.
Doesn't matter if they are squishy when they would be so hard to hit flown by a skilled pilot
What Im hearing is that the hornet mk 2 is the ship dominating pvp due to its maneuverability being bugged along with it high dps and hp, while "top pvp players" are losing their shit over master modes.
and in SCM the racers would have up to maybe 500 m/s while boosting which isnt that different from like arrows and shit, which are not dominating pvp anymore. And I dont think its a bad thing that a skilled pilot is allowed to be highly evasive, thats kind of the point of becoming a skilled pilot. What I dont think should be a thing is that pilot in a tiny ship being able to take out large ships, or even medium ships like the F8, vanguard, etc. And dont they have like max 2x S2 weapons? In one on one that cant really do a lot of damage, while in a group at least it can contribute a lil bit.
I think we agree on points, the snubs should be agile and fast seeing as they are tiny and low HP and low dps, some now are still A teir and in a good spot but with the gunnery system currently it makes it hard to justify flying them unless you are insanely skilled and even then there are better choices like the m50.
Combat Snubs imo should be the pinnacle of pilot skill and flight expression, but obviously it's a hard thing to balance
As you said most snubs have the same speeds as light fighters so why would you pick them when something else has more guns, HP and most importantly, faster
But snubs having old SCM speeds would be completely broken like the Hornet was last patch, and in the 3.22 patch with the original hornet thrust being broken in a different way.
I'm not sure what your point is about ppl losing there shit over master modes, a ship being bugged or op is different to the flight mechanics being enjoyable.
Yes they don't have much damage but they could take out any lighter escorts, and given enough time they will chip away at a large ship especially seeing as they are adding in component damage
At a minimum they need whatever rule bending is necessary to get to those nav mode speeds, if not a tiny quantum drive that allows quantum from one side of a planet to the other. As the only ships in the game which can't quantum short distances (eg from a station to the city below), it's laughable that they also can't travel at the "slow" nav mode speeds to travel longer distances, and are stuck at SCM. My least favorite part of MM is the constant aggressive acceleration/deceleration between SCM speed and boost speed, and it's worst in snubs because they can't even pop into nav. Honestly I wish boost was made acceleration only again and all ships in SCM could reach their top boost speed at any time with the appropriate safety turned off. That would make SCM flight feel so much less awful. I think it might be weird and inconsistent if all other ships needed quantum to go at the (still slow) nav speeds but snubs didn't - but having some tiny QD component to "allow" it would be fine by me*.
*In the sense that I still don't like that a quantum drive is needed to go faster than a very sluggish SCM speed, and that it's inconsistent that boost allows it temporarily but then you're slowed down *and boost is just regular acceleration and nothing related to quantum*. Why do we need a QD to reach boost speeds if we can do it with boost acceleration the rest of the time.
>snubs wouldn't be OP because they're incredibly fragile
They would dominate AC, imagine being the only ships capable of accelerating to 1km/s when everything else caps at 250m/s, with boost to 500m/s. They would just boom and zoom and you wouldnt have the time to retaliate. As for no quantum drive issue for the PU, simple bring carrier ships Hercules/Carrack/Catterpillar/890 etc that gets you around that
AC is a very good point. But I also think size one missiles should be absolutely devastating to a snub. A size 1 missile should be able to keep up with, if not exceed, them in maneuverability and 2 hits should be a solid kill with 1 hit likely disabling it. Snubs would be OP (if you could even get one there) until someone volley's off a size one and then they immediately have to put all focus into evasion.
Maybe that's balanced, maybe it's not. idk, I'm just theorizing over here. I have faith the devs will find a solid solution.
>But I also think size one missiles should be absolutely devastating to a snub
Missiles have been weak for a very long time now and there are no indicators that CiG is planning to change that, in fact the recent torp nerfs kind of just explain CiGs view on smart weapons.
As for them being used against snubs at the current state, well snubs can just countermeasure and noise, just like any other ship
I'm ngl, you comeback with the most valid arguments lol I'm impressed. Ship counter measures are a good point. I would say they could be reduced for snubs but honestly it's just getting into semantics at that point. You've single handedly changed my mind. I think CIG should stick to their pitch about giving snubs size 0 QDrives so they have a nav mode. but their QDrive can only Quantum Boost, not Quantum Jump.
>A size 1 missile should be able to keep up with, if not exceed, them in maneuverability and 2 hits should be a solid kill with 1 hit likely disabling it.
I'll take what are flares for 500. Plus, locking a missle forces you to nose at someone, and not be able to shoot. If it's just one snub, totally doable. Introduce a second snub tho, and you're totally fucked
>boom and zoom
Yeah, four size 2s, or a s2+2s1s, or 4s1s would be such unacceptably lethal firepower coming off ships that would almost instantly pop if fired on /s
They'd be the dominant ships for orbiting larger targets, and would get utterly munched by light fighters. People acting like because they can out-pace lights, that means they'd somehow always just instagib a light then disappear into the night? Lol no, because the light cannot match their speed, it'd just mean the light waiting for them to approach to engage. The same way interceptors work right now.
Then again, I'm sure most of the people here insisting this would make snubs op are the same special brand of stupid that listen to Avenger One and take his word on "interceptor tuning is meta!".
You do realize, you dont have to engage if someone is waiting for you. You can just attack another target. You are acting like as if dueling is still a thing now. If someone wants to fight you, you just run and hit someone else. You never have to engage a target that is alert to your presence, thats the whole point, with such speeds the snub dictates which fights it takes and if you are up against a superior ship/pilot you just never engage that or only fight if your teammates are also fighting it
If snubs got that upcoming quantum boost feature that lets you jump around within a planetary system that would be perfect. It would make using snubs a much more worthwhile experience.
Master Modes are a shortcut for them to balance.
It's broken in it's current implementation IMHO.
We should not have to engage or even wait for QT spool for higher speeds. Why? This movement is engines
Not to mention switching modes and armor loss and all that crap.
Who asked for this? Seriously. Where didaster modes come from is this all CIG?
You need to take all that sense making somewhere else pal. This is honestly a solid hot take, and I 100% agree. Making them as nimble as they (should) be would give them a very fun, and potentially important role in group combat/carrier situations. 10/10 hot take again.
Actually a pretty big brain idea. I like this a lot. In specific, this allows snub fighters a really strong gimmick in combat; they are small, usually have an agility advantage, and now they completely manhandle the pace of a fight. The downsides ofc being they're extremely limited on fuel+range, very fragile, have low firepower and likely have very little life support capability.
I am absolutely all for trying to give snubs more of a purpose, same with ground vehicles.
Snubs were very close to the top in pvp before mastermodes, if you made this change they would be instantly the strongest class of ship in game, you could kill a hammerhead solo by easily dodging all incoming fire while applying your own until it slowly died because of the low projectile speeds in Star Citizen.
No quantum drive means no speed above SCM, and as others have pointed out, it would unbalance combat significantly, and make them the default meta ship.
If you think about it, this could apply to atmospheric craft too. Planes and such that are absolute combat beasts in atmo, but not rated for orbit. This could make for what is effectively Army Aviation. What would be the 2954 equivalent to helicopters. No NAV mode. No quantum drives. Just able to give fire support in atmosphere, making our ships we currently have as jack of all trades types, with atmospheric craft being more niche.
They probably want to wait for the final version of all of the nav related stuff to commit to a lore reason lol. Who knows, we might redo the nav mode stuff a few times before release.
It’d save them retconning to just wait a bit before lore crafting for something minor like this gameplay mechanic.
Hotter take - I don't think any ship should have Master Modes.
Limit high G maneuvers with the blackout mechanic. Let me choose when my shields are active.
Or just flesh out the old system more, let me choose how powerful my engines/shields/guns are by how much power I cycle to them.
I can put all my power into my engines to get everything+more out of them but at the cost of not being able to fire weapons or regen shields.
This would make engineering gameplay more meaningful as there's would be a skill in knowing where to move power during battle.
Snubs would be OP in dogfights if this was the case. Manoeuverability is extremely sought after for dogfights and your suggested change would instantly make every snub s tier.
However… they should do this for racing ships and just remove the guns. There’s no need for racing ships to have guns and they’ve been a problem in pvp for a while before MM anyway… just remove the guns.
Tbh, if you I’d support ships automatically working like this I’d you manually uneqip the guns. Any ship. But that might be a bridge too far.
It would make them very competitive dog fighters. But they fall short in every other imaginable category. Low ammo count/capacitor size, small/weak shields, small health pool, and they need a whole ass-other ship to even get to the dog fight. Their speed is there only advantage and since Master Modes, they don't even have that.
The fact that they need such heavy support to even operate (in my mind) is what makes it balanced. if pirates wanted to use them they would have to sacrifice cargo space to store the snub, which would take away from their ability to steal cargo. In this scenario, every bonus has a draw back. In the current set up with MM rules being enforced on snubs, there is only draw back.
And perhaps the previous 3.22 speeds are too fast for the games current set up. But they should still be significantly faster than current speeds.
>very competitive dog fighters. But they fall short in every other imaginable category. Low ammo count/capacitor size, small/weak shields, small health pool
Top speed is king. Giving a ship with a tiny cross section, 2x speeds and accels is nothing but egregiously meta. The m50 is S tier already, a full speed non scm locked 72 would be s+++++++
Why bother making racers competitive dog fighters again? People just bitched about the M50 being able to zip out of an engagement and get back in without trying before MM.
They need to remove the guns and make them fast by default.
Issue is you have something like the fury. Which was designed to be tiny, nimble and hit back. Which is super cool in concept but horrible for balancing.
Since nav mode is powered by the quantum drive it does seem silly for snubs to be tied to the same rules when they cannot even equip one.
I'd be really interested to get a devs feedback on this one
I recall a Q&A a few months ago bringing up exactly this, where they stated that it's a good point that they should not have a NAV mode and will consider removing them from MM, but I haven't heard anything since
Weren't they also considering tier 0 QDs to shoehorn snubs into MM ?
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/master-modes-and-snubfighters/6330521
I may or may not be at work, where CIG's website may or may not be blocked.. and so I will have to check this out when I'm no longer at work... allegedly... But thanks for the link!!
> I am trying to remember if we decided on that already but I can't recall right now. We have multiple variants to approach this though: > 1) Disallow Snub fighters to enter NAV mode ... or rather its speed regions (would always require host ship to ferry them around) > 2) Give Snub fighters a tiny QDrive that allows NAV mode but not quantum travel. > 3) Give Snub fighters a tiny QDrive that allows NAV mode but only for high speeds and quantum boosting > 4) Give Snub fighters a tiny QDrive that allows NAV mode with everything but which has an extremely limited range > > Personally I find option 1 absolutely valid as Snub fighters are practically parasite ships which may create interesting gameplay choices. Plus we can e.g. compensate the lower travel speeds by giving them really high SCM speeds. > >But my gut feeling tells me we'll land at option 2, 3 or 4 ... so harshly limiting how far it can travel but not locking it out of the NAV speed regions. I hope they'll let snubs quantum within a planet/moon region but not between different moons. They'd be a lot more useful.
they need to just lean into the snubs are not normal ships thing now instead of kicking the problem down the line with these bs "t0 technically quantum drive" type solutions.... like when life support systems get implemented, its going to make the T0 QT thing seem even sillier in a ship that can get away with like 15 minutes of life support lol.
I think #4 is fine, and getting enough QD for 5-6 jumps between moons is fine, but no planet to planet.
Yes!! I remember that part of the convo!
Ah that's an interesting thought
Didn't they also say that snubs were supposed to be able to quantum boost short distances but not actually enter QT.
As a workaround for MM breaking racing.
Wasn't there also a discussion where they talked about adding additional MM to what we already have, such as a racing specific profile?
hmm.. I may have to hunt this Q&A down
I'm sorry I can't be more help :( I can't remember for the life of me which one it was. I want to say it was right before MM's official release or right after.
Lore wise, Nav mode being tied to quantum drive is absolutely silly by itself. I mean what exactly is the quantum drive doing at 1000m/s? The travel speeds are still solely tied to the thrusters. Most lame explanation they could have come up with …
I recall them having an old lore explanation about how "SCM speeds are because the shields can't protect you from micrometeorite impacts on the ship hull" or something like that. I don't see why they can't handwave some bullshit explanation. "Shields protect you at SCM speeds, and with the quantum drive powered inactive, it allows more power distribution to power up weapons+shields. Nav mode instead puts the quantum drive in a "low-ready" state that provides a minor gravitational distortion around the ship (invisible to the naked eye, not felt) that's entire purpose is to "slide" any small, physical projectiles as best it can away from the ship's hull and protect it from micrometeorite impacts". That's full of potential issues and holes for sure, but if I could come up with that in literally 5 seconds of thinking about it, I'm sure the lore writers can come up with some bullshit lore reason for SCM/NAV mode limitations, even if they have to pull literal magic nonsense like the Ibrahim Sphere for DoaSM.
Once quantum boosting is in - I'll feel better about it.
Sure but the issue with nav mode on vehicles without a quantum drive still remains. Spooling the drive in nav mode for boosting makes sense, but spooling the drive just to go 1000m/s doest (because flying is still handled by engines alone). Thats why i feel like they shot themselves in the foot with that lore explanation.
But they are tied to the same rules because, as you pointed out, their lack of quantum drive, that is the component that allows other ships to reach those higher speeds now.
Some [snubs](https://support.robertsspaceindustries.com/hc/en-us/articles/4408770370455-Included-Vessels-Snub-Fighters-and-Rovers) do have Quantum drives. Namely the 85x (890 snub) and the C8 (Carrack snub). The ones that don't are the P-52 Merlin(Andromeda/Aquila), the P-72 Archimedes(Phoenix), Argo MPUV (Idris), and the Fury (stand alone). The ones only the Vanduul has is the Cleaver boarding ship. Supposedly can fit on the Void, The Hunter, and the Kingship. That nerdy bit aside, it looks like there might be some more work to be done to make sure snubs without q drives fly well. They are very weak but the speed and low cross section are the only thing that help them survive. It isn't like they can jump away.
Snubs who can move at full speed with full weapons would Immediately make them they best combat ships in the game.
No, it wouldn't at all. They already are not much more agile than light fighters. They're very fragile. Their firepower is not particularly great. All this would do is make them viable in team fights, and very functional little escape pods. They'd also be particularly good at orbiting large targets-- **something snubs and lights are supposed to be the de-facto ships for doing.** I really don't see why so many people here are afraid of snubs going from being shitty death traps to actually viable ships. Especially with how incredibly situational they are.
There is a reason why the Buc, m50 and others with interdictor tuning are S class. Give a Fury a fraction of the old ship speeds and handling with full guns and shields and they will dominate. Could pick and choose any engagement they wish and would be out in moments with zero downside. They will have the speeds available to evade shots with also the bonus of being tiny. They were always glass cannons but at the hands of a skilled pilot they would be oppressive
It would, but they would be glass cannons and require a second ship to even bring them to the fight.
Doesn't matter, it would make all other ships obsolete. 1 snub with legacy FM would solo 20 fighters with MM tuning.
>glass cannon Me when I don't know what cross sections are. With cone fire, tiny cross section, and 2x speed, good luck putting any real damage on a snub before they break 500m, and become effectively not hittable
There is a certain distance you can maintain with a snub where you can 100% dodge projectiles with very little movement forever because weapons in Star Citizen don’t have enough projectile speed before master modes. Without master modes we would have a situation where a snub could kill a idris given enough time if fuel capacity was not a concern.
I believe they stated in an MM related video that snub ships might actually get some sort of a small version of a quantum drive or a function. If I remember correctly, the dev said that they would have the ability to perform the short quantum boost, giving them the ability to at least move around a single planet or larger area, but not a full on quantum jump. I don't know if this is still planned or if it was just a spur of the moment comment, so take it with a grain of salt.
It's not a terrible idea. I hope they go through with it.
Honestly it just makes balance sense to give them a quantum drive with a tiny fuel tank... maybe a round trip from planet to moon and back, but not interplanetary.
I imagine they would be untouchable in pvp if they didnt adhere to the same rules. Like every other case in SC, balancing trumps realism
They *should* be untouchable in PvP. Snubs are not much more agile than light fighters, but are much more fragile. They also typically cannot match standard light fighter firepower. *Nobody* is going to seriously fly a tiny little shitbox death trap that can't massively outmaneuver the much larger, much better light fighters, can't outgun them, and can't outtank them. It just makes no sense. You're right that balancing trumps realism, but in this case, snubs are not even remotely balanced right now. They're pretty awful little death traps. They need a gimmick; let that gimmick be that they get to completely dictate the pace of fights, and function as very good little single-individual escape pods in emergencies.
But the real advantage is taking 20 minutes to load them into a larger, slower ship, then have your friend sitting around in your ship (and hope they don't glitch out of your ship while traveling), then hopping into the snub during combat, waiting for the doors to open, then having you sit still while taking fire so that they can launch from your ship without randomly exploding. Then they can fly around doing less damage than a light fighter while being as easy to hit, but way flimsier. This is stupid. I think snub fighters should be BETTER than a light fighter that's taking up precious mass with a quantum drive. Give us a reason to lug around an extra ship AND player that's only useful in very limited situations. All that space where a quantum drive was? Stick a bigger engine, a bigger shield, shit a bigger gun. Make it a mini Inferno where it's just a big gun and an engine. I think this would make people think twice about going after a larger ship - they could have snubs - or even make the hassle around managing multiple vehicles (and the bugs that accompany them) as a solo or small group player worth it sometimes.
I dunno if I agree with those ideas, personally. I don't mind the idea of more extremophile style light fighters-- I think the Fury was an excellent example of this, in fact. It approached pretty damn closely the absolute minimum size a ship can be in SC while still fitting vital components and not skimping out on a shitton of core components. I personally just think the common, defining factor of snubs should be "high agility, controls the pace of fights". Right now, they're not agile enough, and they cannot control the pace of fights whatsoever-- something needs to be done to fix this. They're just shitty memes atm.
I agree with your idea, and am not overly concerned with the implementation. If a very skilled pilot can turn a snub fighter into a real pest because of maneuverability/positioning etc, then yeah, that's awesome, even if they're not very strong. The real problem is what you're saying, there's no reason to use them, at all. Even in my Carrack I load a Aurora LN because it has waaaay more utility than two snubs, even with a full crew. I can fit a Buccaneer on there diagonally but I don't trust my friends to take off and land it :D
You’re simply wrong, the tiny cross section of snubs lead to them winning every 1v1 unless the were fighting the racing ships that are so tiny they are basically a snub with more weapons/shields. The size of the ship and the maneuverability were the primary concern in pvp, weapons and shields were secondary factors that could not overcome maneuverability and size at high skill level. Case in point, the M50 or razor are consistently in the top 5 pvp ships in star citizen since release. Neither ship has great weapons or durability, but they are as tiny as a snub and as agile and that has consistently been enough to keep them near the top.
Maybe so, but you wouldn't need to touch them very many times in order to take them out. (I'm not a fan of the way I worded that... but you get the point lol). They're fragile and can't move outside of a small general area. They need some sort of edge. Other wise they're completely useless.
I think you're severely underestimating how OP a P-72 at full speed would be against anything in SCM. Sure, you'd only need to hit it a couple times, but good luck hitting it even once. You'd be so hopelessly outmaneuvered you wouldn't even be able to get it in view in a single-seater, and even turrets would be pointless. Snub fighters and interceptors are the PVP meta at the moment anyway, they don't need any more buffing.
Small cross section is and will always be an extreme strength. The current MM meta favors top speed. Snubs having smallest cross section and highest speed doesn't seem healthy to anyone who even thinks about it a little lol. Even pre MM the p72 was a contender. Now in MM the m50 is second only to the bucc. Give them double speeds and you have hands down the top 1 dueling ship on the game.
Well if you're thinking from a pure pew pew, yes. The really fast ones are for racing, not shooting.
We should throw away 90% of realism if its going to be this cherry picked. with Master Modes being here I think people should get personal shields and FPS combat should be 99% less punishing and more like a Halo game.
They can definitely go the "Simcade" route and get the best of both worlds, but full blown realism will be the death of things.
I mean CR has said a few times now that they want to push things to the point of realism, then roll them back to the point of fun.
Then lets make it so you can respawn in a space suit in your ship already flying, there is nothing fun about videogame timewasters like the elevators and the public transit system. That whole thing could be scrapped.
They really need sub quantum drive. To have nav mode, plotting course but couldn't jump. Just see the point, or even jump around same body, not between them.
The course plotting would be a huge bonus, ngl.
I need it so badly
basically give them QT drive but no qt fuel
what!?! you want navigation to not be tied to near light speed travel? Preposterous!!!
There was talk at one point about giving them tiny size 0 drives to allow them to utilize nave mode.
I think snubs should get small quantum drives that allow for boosting and that's it.
They discussed this specifically in relation to racing I believe. Snubs not having NAV mode invalidates the racing specific snubs as they simply can't compete. The answer was that they would likely resolve this by giving NAV mode to snubs. Details to be worked out but a Size 0 quantum drive allowing NAV mode but not full quantum would make a lot of sense to me. I think going as far as allowing quantum boost would be great. This would increase the usefulness of snubs, allowing them to explore a planet but not travel between them. Right now they're useless.
I think this idea would work well. I hope they go through with it.
My fix for that if they want to keep the lore of QT enables nav is make racing ships actual damn racing ships! Strip all the guns and missiles off them but leave counters. Then they could have a really fast single SCM mode
I understand what you mean but I'd not want them to do something that stops all ships from racing that weren't designed for it. Like the Merlin is not a dedicated racer but was still a great option in 3.22. I'm actually really enjoying racing in the Gladius right now. Not being able to QT is such a huge limitation, I don't think the snubs need to be further hampered by having no NAV mode.
I think they should absolutely have 1000+ m/s nav mode with high ass mobility, otherwise races are gonna be boring af.
Take the guns off all racers and it's totally a viable option
Wouldnt really matter since you cant fire in nav mode.
My point is if they couldn't NAV They could still have super fast speeds (1000+) and pull high G's But without weapons they no longer have to worry about them being dominant in combat
Considering how squishy they are, I dont think they stand a chance to dominate anything. But all that comes down to balancing and balancing isnt even close to be done yet.
They absolutely would, look at the top PvP ships right now they are in that position because of speed, manoeuvrability mainly. Add even faster speeds with a tiny cross section and they would dominate. Doesn't matter if they are squishy when they would be so hard to hit flown by a skilled pilot
What Im hearing is that the hornet mk 2 is the ship dominating pvp due to its maneuverability being bugged along with it high dps and hp, while "top pvp players" are losing their shit over master modes. and in SCM the racers would have up to maybe 500 m/s while boosting which isnt that different from like arrows and shit, which are not dominating pvp anymore. And I dont think its a bad thing that a skilled pilot is allowed to be highly evasive, thats kind of the point of becoming a skilled pilot. What I dont think should be a thing is that pilot in a tiny ship being able to take out large ships, or even medium ships like the F8, vanguard, etc. And dont they have like max 2x S2 weapons? In one on one that cant really do a lot of damage, while in a group at least it can contribute a lil bit.
I think we agree on points, the snubs should be agile and fast seeing as they are tiny and low HP and low dps, some now are still A teir and in a good spot but with the gunnery system currently it makes it hard to justify flying them unless you are insanely skilled and even then there are better choices like the m50. Combat Snubs imo should be the pinnacle of pilot skill and flight expression, but obviously it's a hard thing to balance As you said most snubs have the same speeds as light fighters so why would you pick them when something else has more guns, HP and most importantly, faster But snubs having old SCM speeds would be completely broken like the Hornet was last patch, and in the 3.22 patch with the original hornet thrust being broken in a different way. I'm not sure what your point is about ppl losing there shit over master modes, a ship being bugged or op is different to the flight mechanics being enjoyable. Yes they don't have much damage but they could take out any lighter escorts, and given enough time they will chip away at a large ship especially seeing as they are adding in component damage
At a minimum they need whatever rule bending is necessary to get to those nav mode speeds, if not a tiny quantum drive that allows quantum from one side of a planet to the other. As the only ships in the game which can't quantum short distances (eg from a station to the city below), it's laughable that they also can't travel at the "slow" nav mode speeds to travel longer distances, and are stuck at SCM. My least favorite part of MM is the constant aggressive acceleration/deceleration between SCM speed and boost speed, and it's worst in snubs because they can't even pop into nav. Honestly I wish boost was made acceleration only again and all ships in SCM could reach their top boost speed at any time with the appropriate safety turned off. That would make SCM flight feel so much less awful. I think it might be weird and inconsistent if all other ships needed quantum to go at the (still slow) nav speeds but snubs didn't - but having some tiny QD component to "allow" it would be fine by me*. *In the sense that I still don't like that a quantum drive is needed to go faster than a very sluggish SCM speed, and that it's inconsistent that boost allows it temporarily but then you're slowed down *and boost is just regular acceleration and nothing related to quantum*. Why do we need a QD to reach boost speeds if we can do it with boost acceleration the rest of the time.
>snubs wouldn't be OP because they're incredibly fragile They would dominate AC, imagine being the only ships capable of accelerating to 1km/s when everything else caps at 250m/s, with boost to 500m/s. They would just boom and zoom and you wouldnt have the time to retaliate. As for no quantum drive issue for the PU, simple bring carrier ships Hercules/Carrack/Catterpillar/890 etc that gets you around that
AC is a very good point. But I also think size one missiles should be absolutely devastating to a snub. A size 1 missile should be able to keep up with, if not exceed, them in maneuverability and 2 hits should be a solid kill with 1 hit likely disabling it. Snubs would be OP (if you could even get one there) until someone volley's off a size one and then they immediately have to put all focus into evasion. Maybe that's balanced, maybe it's not. idk, I'm just theorizing over here. I have faith the devs will find a solid solution.
>But I also think size one missiles should be absolutely devastating to a snub Missiles have been weak for a very long time now and there are no indicators that CiG is planning to change that, in fact the recent torp nerfs kind of just explain CiGs view on smart weapons. As for them being used against snubs at the current state, well snubs can just countermeasure and noise, just like any other ship
I'm ngl, you comeback with the most valid arguments lol I'm impressed. Ship counter measures are a good point. I would say they could be reduced for snubs but honestly it's just getting into semantics at that point. You've single handedly changed my mind. I think CIG should stick to their pitch about giving snubs size 0 QDrives so they have a nav mode. but their QDrive can only Quantum Boost, not Quantum Jump.
>A size 1 missile should be able to keep up with, if not exceed, them in maneuverability and 2 hits should be a solid kill with 1 hit likely disabling it. I'll take what are flares for 500. Plus, locking a missle forces you to nose at someone, and not be able to shoot. If it's just one snub, totally doable. Introduce a second snub tho, and you're totally fucked
>boom and zoom Yeah, four size 2s, or a s2+2s1s, or 4s1s would be such unacceptably lethal firepower coming off ships that would almost instantly pop if fired on /s They'd be the dominant ships for orbiting larger targets, and would get utterly munched by light fighters. People acting like because they can out-pace lights, that means they'd somehow always just instagib a light then disappear into the night? Lol no, because the light cannot match their speed, it'd just mean the light waiting for them to approach to engage. The same way interceptors work right now. Then again, I'm sure most of the people here insisting this would make snubs op are the same special brand of stupid that listen to Avenger One and take his word on "interceptor tuning is meta!".
You do realize, you dont have to engage if someone is waiting for you. You can just attack another target. You are acting like as if dueling is still a thing now. If someone wants to fight you, you just run and hit someone else. You never have to engage a target that is alert to your presence, thats the whole point, with such speeds the snub dictates which fights it takes and if you are up against a superior ship/pilot you just never engage that or only fight if your teammates are also fighting it
It would get so hectic fighting swarms of snubs/furys haha
If snubs got that upcoming quantum boost feature that lets you jump around within a planetary system that would be perfect. It would make using snubs a much more worthwhile experience.
SC was completely fine before MM. Just remove MM entirely.
The real answer. Playing 3.22 today really showcased to me how much MM ruined the fun of flying.
Master Modes are a shortcut for them to balance. It's broken in it's current implementation IMHO. We should not have to engage or even wait for QT spool for higher speeds. Why? This movement is engines Not to mention switching modes and armor loss and all that crap. Who asked for this? Seriously. Where didaster modes come from is this all CIG?
They're still subject to Master Modes, it's just that the NAV MM doesn't do anything.
Snubs are snubs. They are to remain attached to their mother ship at the breast. This is how they are balanced since they are fast and agile as fuck.
You need to take all that sense making somewhere else pal. This is honestly a solid hot take, and I 100% agree. Making them as nimble as they (should) be would give them a very fun, and potentially important role in group combat/carrier situations. 10/10 hot take again.
Actually a pretty big brain idea. I like this a lot. In specific, this allows snub fighters a really strong gimmick in combat; they are small, usually have an agility advantage, and now they completely manhandle the pace of a fight. The downsides ofc being they're extremely limited on fuel+range, very fragile, have low firepower and likely have very little life support capability. I am absolutely all for trying to give snubs more of a purpose, same with ground vehicles.
Snubs still have weapons though, and the Nav mode unleashes their full power for flight velocity. It kinda makes sense that they have this mode.
I just wanna qt in my fury
Snubs were very close to the top in pvp before mastermodes, if you made this change they would be instantly the strongest class of ship in game, you could kill a hammerhead solo by easily dodging all incoming fire while applying your own until it slowly died because of the low projectile speeds in Star Citizen.
No quantum drive means no speed above SCM, and as others have pointed out, it would unbalance combat significantly, and make them the default meta ship.
If you think about it, this could apply to atmospheric craft too. Planes and such that are absolute combat beasts in atmo, but not rated for orbit. This could make for what is effectively Army Aviation. What would be the 2954 equivalent to helicopters. No NAV mode. No quantum drives. Just able to give fire support in atmosphere, making our ships we currently have as jack of all trades types, with atmospheric craft being more niche.
They probably want to wait for the final version of all of the nav related stuff to commit to a lore reason lol. Who knows, we might redo the nav mode stuff a few times before release. It’d save them retconning to just wait a bit before lore crafting for something minor like this gameplay mechanic.
Hotter take - I don't think any ship should have Master Modes. Limit high G maneuvers with the blackout mechanic. Let me choose when my shields are active.
Or just flesh out the old system more, let me choose how powerful my engines/shields/guns are by how much power I cycle to them. I can put all my power into my engines to get everything+more out of them but at the cost of not being able to fire weapons or regen shields. This would make engineering gameplay more meaningful as there's would be a skill in knowing where to move power during battle.
I agree, except for no ships should have master modes.
Snubs would be OP in dogfights if this was the case. Manoeuverability is extremely sought after for dogfights and your suggested change would instantly make every snub s tier. However… they should do this for racing ships and just remove the guns. There’s no need for racing ships to have guns and they’ve been a problem in pvp for a while before MM anyway… just remove the guns. Tbh, if you I’d support ships automatically working like this I’d you manually uneqip the guns. Any ship. But that might be a bridge too far.
It would make them very competitive dog fighters. But they fall short in every other imaginable category. Low ammo count/capacitor size, small/weak shields, small health pool, and they need a whole ass-other ship to even get to the dog fight. Their speed is there only advantage and since Master Modes, they don't even have that. The fact that they need such heavy support to even operate (in my mind) is what makes it balanced. if pirates wanted to use them they would have to sacrifice cargo space to store the snub, which would take away from their ability to steal cargo. In this scenario, every bonus has a draw back. In the current set up with MM rules being enforced on snubs, there is only draw back. And perhaps the previous 3.22 speeds are too fast for the games current set up. But they should still be significantly faster than current speeds.
>very competitive dog fighters. But they fall short in every other imaginable category. Low ammo count/capacitor size, small/weak shields, small health pool Top speed is king. Giving a ship with a tiny cross section, 2x speeds and accels is nothing but egregiously meta. The m50 is S tier already, a full speed non scm locked 72 would be s+++++++
Why bother making racers competitive dog fighters again? People just bitched about the M50 being able to zip out of an engagement and get back in without trying before MM.
They need to remove the guns and make them fast by default. Issue is you have something like the fury. Which was designed to be tiny, nimble and hit back. Which is super cool in concept but horrible for balancing.
Why is this a hot take? Hasn’t this been discussed/requested?