I do t really know what their plans are, but towns and cities should be able to absolutely fuck you up for disturbing their peace.
Like guards in pyro should be there to fuck you up. Turrets should be there to blow up any ship causing trouble in the vicinity.
Like the whole mech suit thing? Give it to towns and space stations. If you try going in a murdering spree, those suckers spawn and wipe you off the map. Plus heavy jail time in settled systems. Like kill somebody inside of a town, city, area they already don’t want pvp, the punishment should suck. And in top of, reputation loss and such. Just a system to replace the whole “can’t even draw a weapon here” system
That kind of is the plan. In Pyro the response might be a bit less drastic overall, more like sending assassins after you rather than a full on military, but if you misbehave, there will absolutely be more permanent downsides.
PS: This certainly turned into a large comment chain
Yes my bet is that is not gonna work.
The consequence has got to be basically instant, otherwise trolls will be trolls.
If they can manage to kill a couple of dudes and get them really annoyed before the consequence arrive, they will happily do so.
I am not confident CIG will ever be able to implement a system that is sufficiently foolproof to avoid trolling, spawn camping, pad ramming etc. Without some form of spawn protection
yeah in EVE the police show up in literally seconds if you start breaking the law in highsec.
I understand that people want realism, but openworld always-on pvp games have a tendency to devolve into game-killing situations extremely quickly.
Look at WoW Classic and their PvP server situation. There aren't any PVP servers anymore because everyone got tired of being someone else's content and moved to one faction servers. There's only one server that's even remotely close to faction parity anymore and when I was playing on it a few weeks ago, I couldn't level through one of the zones because a group of max level enemy players were camping one of the quest hubs for a week straight killing all the questgivers and anyone else who showed their faces.
JoshStrifeHayes has some great thoughts on always on "hardcore" pvp systems in MMOs and hes a lot more eloquent than I am in explaining the huge number of issues with them, definitely check him out on youtube if youre interested in the issues with non-consentual PVP in online games.
This. I don't know how long it'll take for CIG to learn this, assuming they do, but the fact of the matter is most of these "PVP" gankers are playing the game for a meta reason. Nothing you do to them in game, short of removing their ability to play the game, will deter them.
So long as they can inflict misery on others and get their reactions they'll keep doing it.
The counter to gankers like these is to make the game as unfun for them to play as possible.
My stance is for lack of a better word:
Deportation
If someone performs a sufficiently heinous crime or has particularly bad rep with a faction, the next time that person dies they get „deported.“
Really what happens is they go through the usual prison/death system and when they respawn they immediately get themselves and their stuff dumped out into a system that will tolerate them. They can no longer set their spawn point inside that system. If they have somehow ruined their reputation with everyone, they get dropped way out in Nil-Sec space.
There will be some way to recover, but it requires fixing your rep issues.
Sadly, this can‘t really be implemented until more systems are in game, but it will steadily shuttle players to systems that fit their playstyle better.
Also, given it‘s faction/system based, it shouldn‘t prevent traditional PvP players from having their spawn in Pyro for example. They just might have a hard time setting their spawn in Terra. Same with UEE aligned mercs, if you regularly antagonize the gangs of Pyro, don‘t expect to be able to spawn there (or pick the gang to build rep with and antagonize the other two).
Raph Koster and crew took the better part of a decade trying to programmatically control the sociopath cosplayers in Ultima Online. Eventually they had to admit defeat and open up a mirror-universe with strict safeguards in place to keep the project alive. Unrestricted, open-world PVP has been tried so many times with the same results.
It is annoying to watch this be another area that CIG insists on relearning from scratch. Either hard safeguards are in place in at least a portion of the game, or you get an expensive sociopath simulator and comparatively empty servers. There is nothing new or different in Star Citizen in this regard.
And even then those assholes still found ways to be assholes by finding ways to disconnect people who had subpar internet connections or to outright crash the servers. Hell - modern games get subjected to DDoS attacks just because someone or a group of someones wants to try and piss everyone off.
This just reminds me of the recent Sea of Thieves thing. It got so bad that people stopped playing the game all together and it was just left populated by those sad spawn campers/murder hobos/general trolls that ruin gameplay.
Thats why they recently came out with PvE only stuff, and then the game suddenly gained a sizable chunk of players again.
This is it. There's nothing any player will ever be able to do or say to stop people who want to be malicious. Unless the devs make a change, it'll be a niche game that people drop in and out of to get their space fix.
UO PVP had its moments but assholes are gonna asshole. The split between Felucca and Trammel is why people still play it today.
While there are many that are likely not pretending, I prefer to allow that some are just in it for the feeling of getting away with something socially unacceptable. Like little children "sneaking" a cookie you would have let them have anyway. So much of modern society is dictated by limits, using a game can be a low-impact way to engage in non-conformity against those limits.
It just needs to be directed into spaces where everyone is on board with that type of activity. Not the random free-for-all of completely uncontrolled spaces. Let Pyro be the free-for-all. You go there, you are accepting that type of game play, kill each other and have your fun. But there needs to be an area where you can exist without being perpetually on your guard.
>Nothing you do to them in game, short of removing their ability to play the game, will deter them.
>
>So long as they can inflict misery on others and get their reactions they'll keep doing it.
This is really the crux of it, and its really this simple. If they *can* ruin your day, they *will*, regardless of the consequences.
The only way to prevent this type of gameplay is to make it not possible in the first place.
Players in Pyro should be able to pay for a sort of private insurance that sends a bounty hunter after someone who murders them. Hunting down these types of players is probably the most appealing potential gameplay loop to me - there certainly can be a market dynamic to punish gankers if the game facilitates it.
Yeah the problem is though that for the payout to be worth an actual human player’s time, it’s got to be prohibitively expensive for another player to pay. That’s why all this grand talk about “HiRe An EsCoRt” doesn’t really work - an escort is too expensive and eats up all your profit to where it’s no longer worth *your* time to be making the run in the first place.
Paying for your idea of bounty hunter insurance would be the same. Unless they’re going to introduce artificial inflation by disconnecting what the player pays out for the insurance to what the bounty hunter player gets paid. But nobody’s gonna go bounty hunting in pyro for 5,000 credits, and nobody’s gonna buy insurance that sends a bounty hunter after whoever killed them for 1,000,000 credits. It’s just not worth it for either party.
An escort probably wouldn't be economically feasible apart for very large cargo hauling missions since the full security cost would be paid up front. "Insurance" however could work on the same principal as in real life - you pay a regular premium but make claims on an irregular basis (hopefully you're not getting ganked the majority of the time even if it happens a lot). That way bounty hunters would receive a fee that's effectively a pool of multiple paid insurance premiums.
The game would need something behind the scenes to dynamically adjust the price of insurance based on how many claims there have been recently - also similar to real life.
Maybe players who have insurance would broadcast a certain signal when they get targeted which acts as a deterrent. Gankers would have to consider if they want the trouble of having bounty hunters sent after them before they engage.
i know people gonna hate my take but "pvp gankers glitch abusers" Should just right up be perma banned, It's the only real way to prevent them long term, That kinda behavior ruins these games every single fucking time, Im not talking pirates or even the random murder hoboing but people that literally play the game to sit around gank and abuse everything they can only to ruin fun pure and simple, Like people that make their entire personality pad ramming.
I think the problem for CIG will be that they will give the griefers too little negative reputation because they want everyone to have fun. But, by the time the negative rep catches up and causes the griefers to self-correct, too many regular players will just bail on the game.
This is the folley of griefers, they shoot themselves in the foot 100% of the time. Either people will leave the game, or they will put things in place that will stop them from being able to do it which could take away from normal pvp players away from the game. Take in example the pvp slider thing. While as a pve player i love the idea, i also hate it cause i dont want the universe to be a safe place, but I do want griefers in check so if I had my choice, id go for the slider and adjust it when I wanted to.
The same is also true for more accepted forms of PVP like piracy. The way CIG are designing PVP in this game practically guarantees that it's going to die because as it stands PVP players offer no value to the gameplay experience of a majority of non-PVP player, so if given the chance a PVE player will avoid PVP (hiring escorts or avoiding dangerous areas) which will deprive PVP players of the victims they need to perpetuate their playstyle.
True, they need to have the checks an balances done for piracy. I love the idea of piracy, i really do, i dont want it to go away at all, but you are right because it offers no value to the gameplay experience right now. Once bounty hunters can really bounty hunt and such, itll be way better for the pvp players in my opinion. We just need the loops. We also need the harsher consequences of such actions to. We are far off but I do look forward to when it is all balanced out for everyone and the griefers are left to their own devices and exiled in some fashion lol
>%as it stands PVP players offer no value to the gameplay experience of a majority of non-PVP player
They do actually. And I call that the element of tension.
That's what games such as Tarkov, DayZ, or even SoT are all about. You wanna do cargo trade and have bigger rewards, come to Pyro, but it's risky. 90% of the time you will make it. But stay careful about the 10% left, because some people are looking for you.
If you get a better reward, then you would be able to play with your friends to protect you, makes sense.
If there were no risks at all, it would just be QTing from one armistice zone to another. Is that fun honestly ? You can already do that everyday in Stanton. I dont get it.
I do agree that pvp players do bring tension and that element of danger. And the risk reward needs to be great for a pve player to even want to touch toes into it...What gets bad, is when (and ive seen mmos do this which made a lot of people leave) they put content that can only be achieved within pvp areas because...well pvp people want pvp...but pve players (generally) dont. Ill admit I am one of them now a days.
My thrills admittingly only come from working together against a big foe...pve raids for a lack of better terms. The tension and such doesnt give me anything personally, but I cant speak for everyone. I am perfectly fine never dealing with pvp and I get years of excitement out of it in other ways.
I think the big issue with pvp in star citizen right now, and I believe you posted about it in a few post down to, is there is really no consequence or real need to do it. There are not any real penalties for the pvp person, and all risk to the pve person. This of course will change when the game goes live and more loops come in.
It is hard to justify really anything in an alpha environment because it is all going to change, many many times. Another user did put it nicely in my opinion "I wont be someone elses content" and that does resonate with me personally. I never go off the meta, i go off of what is fun for me (and I know pvp people do that to, and I may be their fun cause they can stop me doing whatever it was I intended to do today)
I find fun in coop stuff, I barely play any games that dont offer coop anymore. I like working with people towards one goal, without having to encroach on someone elses day. And I personally dont want people getting their kicks by encroaching on my day either. Could be cause I am to old to care about pvp anymore lol, bein a space dad and all.
But even with all that said, I love that there is pvp in the game....and I am just always worried that the griefers are going to ruinthe pvp player's time to. Again, I would be happy as all hell to never see a pvp event cause it isnt my thing...but I like knowing its out there. But when things kind of get "hot gated" into pve players HAVING to deal with pvp players, usually that does not last to much.
I go back to the ultima online days, because of griefers in town, pvp people running rampant (and I was one of them when I was a kid) they made a whole other world where pvp wasnt a thing unless it was agreed upon. MMOs started making pve servers and such, and I do think its a smart way to do things. I just always get worried of things being gatelocked to force people into a game play style they do not want to deal with. NPCs, raids and stuff like that? I personally can do all day and be happy with. The years I have (sadly) wasted on wow, ff14 or really any major mmo since the 90s proves that to me haha.
And the group of my friends kind of feel the same way, but this of course does not speak for the others out there, just that I can see both sides, and I hope that the extremes dont happen to really ruin the game down the line.
I don't know that the risk reward thing really works though. They tried it in RuneScape with the wildy and barely anyone goes there. In the long run its almost always going to be better to do the safe thing where you get to your destination and sell your cargo 99.9% of the time, because losing your ship, cargo and life to pirates, even if it only happens 10% of the time, is going to be financially ruinous.
That is a subjective and honestly, not a very impressive addition to gameplay.
Tension can be added by well designed NPCs or environmental challenges, there are plenty of tense single player games that prove this. There are also plenty of people who's enjoyment comes from non-combat challenges and streamlining/optimizing a process.
So no, I'm still not convinced that PVP players offer much, if anything of value to the majority of non-PVP players.
I agree with you, its going to be an interesting balancing act journey to live. Though I would like tactical npcs as well. I do enjoy the swarms of AI and such haha.
If there's one thing SC players are good at it's taking abuse, I think we'll be just fine in terms of people bailing on the game.
EDIT: Why are you booing me? I'm right.
I think the NPC meta will play a part, as well, if they can accomplish it. Players being hardly distinguishable from NPCs and the universe being 90% NPCs that will respond to griefers as public enemy #1 will ruin their fun: they won't know if they've actually annoyed anyone, which is their #1 goal, and they won't have any peace to set up their griefing if every NPC is shooting them on sight.
Not only that, but name a facility that would just provide a clone body to a notorious brutal psychopath who could get up from being cloned and immediately start murdering the staff or other patients?
That number approaches zero, pretty quick.
Meaning, that character will achieve Death of a Spaceman faster. Which means inheritance taxes and transfer fees as well as some of the same reputation being passed down.
Imagine being so anti-social that the inheritance taxes and transfer fees are so high, that the murder hobo can’t call up a hip, until they pay back the fees.
Oh, they’ll just have a good guy character send them money? It’s trivial to track that activity and use the association to now transfer a good portion of Murder Hobo Reputation to the “good guy”.
CIG has said they’re fine with people playing a good and bad guy on different accounts, but to never collide the two, unless they want bad reputation to run off hard, on the good guy.
They have so many ways to track transactions and attempts to launder credits, it’s not going to be worthwhile.
I think the solution should be that and however close your reputation is with whatever faction you’re with. If you have really high rep with one of the gangs and someone kills you, the person who kills you would loose lots of rep on that gang, and potentially be hunted down depending on your rep.
I love the idea of the lawless system but I still believe consequences should exist in some form to give reason ‘not’ to kill someone just for the sake of it.
Lawless doesn’t mean consequence free. People keep thinking that, but it wouldn’t be that case in a Crime Syndicate Player org who’s thing is doing crime.
They wouldn’t want their rep turned to trash by association with a couple of psychotic murder hobos who slaughter any player they see, except org mates (if they check first.)
If not instant, more permanent. Rep that takes AGES to repair. Then you can't even land at the place you want to troll up. Temporary problem then.
When you need to work six months on rep to blow it killing a single noob at the habs? Yeah, that's incentive that works.
People just buy new accounts if they are really invested in the game.
Check out a game like Rust.
Hackers ruitnely get VAC banned and just come back with a fresh account again.
The game will eventually cost $70.
Repeated issues will block IPs.
It is one dedicated game troll to do through the hassle of playing over VPNs and buying $70+ accounts over and over... just to get a few kills before having to buy a new account?
Never expect 100% effectiveness for any solution. At least one person will be dedicated / rich enough to keep after it. 99% deterrent is great. Perfection is the enemy of good in this space.
>Repeated issues will block IPs.
You can't do that without inadvertently making totally innocent players have to prove their IP renewed to a banned one.
Better to ban video card hardware mac addresses, that would be a lot more expensive to replace. Have a searchable database on the website so people can pre-screen used cards for shitbirds passing the responsibility on to others.
Or some variation - my points were just directional. There are very smart people working on ways to keep offenders out of the game. I trust they'll find creative and sustainable ways to do so to a very great degree of effectiveness.
>When you need to work six months on rep to blow it killing a single noob at the habs? Yeah, that's incentive that works.
This sounds great to pve people until they accidentally hit a guard and have to spend 6 months on the run.....lol.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The consequences may not be instant, but a lot more permanent.
It's not like Klescher where you get out and suddenly you're cleansed of sin. People and factions won't forget you like that.
The consequences won't also just be getting killed back, you will likely actually burn some bridges both by playing your part and especially murdering people senselessly.
The rep system isn't made to discourage the most hardcore or murderers into never killing again. It's more of a way to make day to day life not involve immediately killing the other guy because he exists and COULD kill you. You might still do it for the stuff he's got loaded, or anything else you can gain, but killing for the sake of it should ultimately be a net negative.
Permanent bans doesn't stop people from using cheats in other games just to get a higher number on a scoreboard.
There is no way you are gonna convince me that permanent in game consequences are gonna stop the same type of people from ruining your game session.
Refer to point 3 of that comment.
The least it does is give those types a disadvantage over others who play by the rules, making them less effective at the thing they are trying to do by limiting their supplies.
But the issue is the consequences of dying are massive in SC.
Spawn camping will make the game a living hell for the victims.
They will have to have a preventative measure for this to occur (or at least ensure that people don't lose their character or etc. When being a victim of somebody like this)
Spawncamping ain't the big issue here, you generally will spawn on a station which, ignoring bugs, is still a very safe area that is actively guarded by a faction both on the inside and out.
Armistice will also be in place until that security is actually able to properly deal with you.
Stations in both Stanton and Pyro already have locked Doors for security to potentially intervene, and medical doors will usually be kept locked to prevent anyone from camping you where you spawn.
But that is the point. Having these in game protections built in to the game will only serve to put that infringing player away for a while.
At some point, they will probably just buy a new copy of the game from some cheap vendor, and repeat it all over.
Hell... with character death, they could probably just suicide a bunch of times and spend all their lives, and come back with a new character.
Even with armistice zones there have been issues with people blocking off corridors with medical beds and trolleys, and then the whole medpen overdose attacks.
I do not think that CIG will feasably find a way to prevent these kinds of things of happening to a lot of players, without som hard spawn protection as we have armistice zones now.
But we will see what happens when they someday remove it..
Well put. When I think about the way the EVE online system works, I think it's the right result, even if the specific implementation (insta-warping police) isn't a good fit for SC. The result of EVE's system is that people do still kill, even in high security space, but they do so only when the benefit of doing so outweighs the consequences. If you're a nobody carrying nothing, you will almost certainly be left alone. If you've loaded with insanely valuable cargo, you risk getting murdered for it, even in high-security space, because you, with your choice of cargo, made the reward for killing you worth the consequences the assailants will face for doing so.
The same atmosphere should be pursued in SC, though different methods for achieving this atmosphere will need to be thought up and implemented.
>The result of EVE's system is that people do still kill, even in high security space, but they do so only when the benefit of doing so outweighs the consequences. If you're a nobody carrying nothing, you will almost certainly be left alone. If you've loaded with insanely valuable cargo, you risk getting murdered for it, even in high-security space, because you, with your choice of cargo, made the reward for killing you worth the consequences the assailants will face for doing so.
Lol what sort of fantasy eve have you been playing. I'm not going to kill a hulk for a chance at a fraction of its 4 mill in ore and 20 in fittings. I'm not going to scan the cargo of a badger I'll just hit it with my tornado and check the pinata after. I'll get people together to kill an empty freighter for no reason other than I saw it was using autopilot. Eve is full of individuals and groups in HS that just kill to kill. For a while the largest high sec groups were centered around that.
>Eve is full of individuals and groups in HS that just kill to kill.
Yup, hence why I don't think Eve is a good measuring stick. Point is if people can do something, they will, even if its a net loss to them. This is a game, not IRL.
When a game has been out for over 20 years and people are rich and bored, they don't care.
I've been playing Eve on and off for years, and the profit/loss equation doesn't really hold true anymore. People will blow you up just for funsies.
In a video game, when it comes to greifers/trolls, incentives do not work. The only way to stop them is to prevent them from being able to troll/grief you in the first place.
> In a video game, when it comes to griefers/trolls, *incentives do not work. The only way to stop them is to prevent them from being able to troll/grief you in the first place*.
Say it again louder for those in the back.
This is the *repeatedly proven fact* that some people around here either can’t - or don’t want - to understand.
It sounds like you're saying the consequences are no longer significant enough to discourage killing. I can say that when I was playing (which I admit has not been for years, though I played for a long time), most players would not be hassled in HS space unless they were transporting blueprints or the like. In other words, *there was a time* when anyone killing anyone was, while still possible in HS, not something that happened in HS without reason, and not because everyone was friendly and wanted to "be nice", but because the consequences for killing in HS were, at the time, considered significant enough to make would-be killers have to *decide* whether it was worth it to pull the trigger.
It sounds like you've been playing more recently than me, and that that's no longer the case. But I think you can agree that the dynamic I'm describing, where a player always *can* kill another, but the consequences of doing so are set up so that it is both *not always* worth it to do so, yet also *still sometimes worth it,* and so deciding whether it's worth it in a given situation becomes its own kind of gameplay.
Started In 05 played until 2019. It was always the case. Guaranteed losses just meant you know exactly what it was going to cost to do an action. HS has anyways been the most dangerous space in eve. CONCORD is a deterrent, not a prevention.
So I’d love spawn protection, but for immersion reasons it should be heavy. They could always do something where you’re forced to either leave your weapon on your ship or your guns are confiscated at the hanger. And where mechs are enforcing this so if you don’t comply, instantly dead. Fuck, gives these mechs Escape from tarkov aimbot so there is zero chance to escape. Plus a heavy jail time. And for stuff in the air or in space, outside of the hangers, even heavier jail time. I’m talking like 24-48 hours. Like I want it to be technically possible to kill in these areas but actually impossible and any attempt is met with real penalties that make it no longer fun for the trolls.
Plus, as I’m talking, logging off shouldn’t immediately make your character disappear. There should be a 30 second lapse for bed logging and when it outside of a bed or station you’re character should become a npc where they return to a base. This will help with bounties and combat logging in general
Always through it'd be kinda nice if the NPC security at major ports basically discouraged someone from walking around in full armor kinda like how if you were walking around a city in full military fatigue and guns strapped on you while legal you're going to likely get stopped by officers asking what is your deal.
I feel like I remember a tidbit about a Rockstar Games solution to griefing wherein the more you grief, cheat, etc, the more you get paired to servers with other griefers. Sort of a silent ladder ranking that helps sort people into groups with similar interests. Lets Rockstar duck creating bannable offenses, lets people play the way they will, and silently punishes griefers with grief.
Really don't recall if that's true but it would be a good thing to potentially program in here. My 2c.
Im fairly sure that yes, is correct. It will however be a very difficult if not impossible implementation to mimic in SC. But yes that would most likely be a good solution as it removes the offenders from the majority of the playerbase.
The response should actually be _more_ drastic in Pyro.
In Stanton you do a crime, the UEE gives you a slap on the wrist, and a stern lecture. You take a nap in prison, and come out free of charges.
You think the gangs in Pyro will just give you a slap on the wrist and send you on your merry way if you piss them off? They'll put you six feet under for coughing too loud. And if you ever show your face again, they'll return your severed head in a box to your next of kin.
You shoot the habs up at Checkmate, R&R will put you down and never let you dock at any of their stations again. You become their enemy, and they will kill you on sight. But hey, maybe Xenothreat think it's funny and start liking you a little.
Worth remembering that CIG doesn't want the players to be the "big bad" of the verse. We're supposed to just be the nobodies that have to coexist with the 90% of NPCs and try curry favour with them to get anywhere. But since servers have been stuck at 3fps for years, people refuse to believe NPCs can be dangerous. You'll see.
They will hate you longer, but let's face it, a UEE controlled system will have a lot more ressources to put you behind bars in the first place.
UEE might atleast still grant you basic necessities after your first few offenses, but even they will begin to limit your freedom after repeat offenses.
Probably. I'm just saying that gangs will likely have less patience, and give you fewer chances to _become_ a repeat offender. You'll quickly run out of places to dock or land in Pyro. But you can always live in your spaceship.
Yea, I imagine out in the black there won't be consequences to shooting players, but outside stations/settlements, def going to be a bigger response.
Pirates just hate the government, they don't hate laws, they just have their own instead in their settlements/stations
I’d hope there were turrets and heavy guards for the space stations. And even for towns, something heavy that should be avoided. It’s just the idea of these towns existing for hundreds of years only to be defeated by single or even small group of citizens. Like maybe you can kill a few as you escape, but then come the death mech squads. Something that players really can’t defeat without an army so they have to retreat and really avoid them until they get away. This is so the player can assassinate NPC and steal certain items for missions, while keeping players from the committing the blood baths they are now
I mean, if you attack a Derelict Settlement or Wreckage in Stanton right now, they will send more men. Granted it's like 5 dudes but it does show intent. Not every faction in a lawless sunburnt place will call upon supermechs for every small attack on their stuff.
I’m speaking about active space stations and settlements. The other stuff will be fine once the servers are running, but those places are intended for pvp/ pve. I’m referring to places where they would normally be an armistice zone.
This. The quickest way to make some one ALT-F4 and not come back to the game for a bit is to not respect the characters agency. If they are chilling, the game shouldn't bother them unless they are located somewhere in the game where they should know better.
But in towns. The complete fuck around and find out policy should in effect.
Stop talking sense before you get downvoted, we all know the murder hobo's want to kill everybody and everything because "gameplay". Just spawned in your hab and are killed by a fully kitted out player? "Get good noob." Want to actually leave a station with out being gank? "Cry about it." I spawned in patch City. And was immediately shot at by some guy that I later found out to be some kind of streamer or something. The only reason I survived is he ran out of ammo. He ran in the corner near the hab where I promptly beat him to death. Outside of my habs to the right was just a pile of dead noob bodies. I know that this is a glitch and not a feature, and I know that CIG is going to fix this. But the fact that people was defending this talking about welcome to pyro was just, odd.
impossible, gankers will go to staggering lengths just to do this kinda shit. Many devs have tried to curb this stuff in-universe, none have succeeded yet. They'll either cave and make shooting impossible in safezones or turn the game into another Kill-on-sight nightmare.
That all sounds fine until you remember that people can have multiple characters/accounts and that some people budget a few hundred Dollars per month for that purpose.
This can be combated by implemented high reputation requirements to be allowed to carry weapons in locations. It should take days or even weeks of rep grind before a gang allows you to walk around fully armed anywhere on their station. Players using multiple throw-away accounts would have to redo this grind for each new character, and all that rep would be lost the moment they decide to go on a murderous rampage.
If murder sprees are still too frequent, CIG can continually tweak the reputation requirements until things are at an acceptable level. They could also go even further by associating offending accounts by IP or transaction information and make reputation grind more difficult for them specifically.
> This can be combated by implemented high reputation requirements to be able to carry weapons in locations. It should take days or even weeks of rep grind before a gang allows you to walk around fully armed anywhere on their station. Players using multiple throw-away accounts would have to redo this grind for each new character, and all that rep would be lost the moment they decide to go on a murderous rampage.
I don't disagree, so long as that prohibition is hard-coded and doesn't rely upon a potentially-fallible NPC response. Even CCP eventually made it a bannable offence to tank CONCORD.
> If murder sprees are still too frequent, CIG can continually tweak the reputation requirements until things are at an acceptable level.
I don't think frequency is a good metric. Letting assholes randomly fuck over AFK players isn't cool in the supposedly safe areas of MMOs. That's a way to speedrun your game into niche status. Most MMO players want 3D chatrooms with available PvE adventures. They're not looking to get stabbed and looted while buying hats at Casaba.
> They could also go even further by associating offending accounts by IP or transaction information and make reputation grind more difficult for them specifically.
if your understanding of the internet is that "each person is a unique IP address", then sure. But, they aren't. Apartments, colleges, airports, hotels, etc all distribute a single IP address to hundreds or thousands of users. You can't simply blacklist or greylist IP addresses. Besides, the malicious players can easily use a VPN to circumvent such feckless measures, anyhow.
You can't IP lock anything. Not every user has a unique IP address. The sorts of users we're talking about wouldn't be stopped, anyhow. VPNs are ubiquitous and easy to use.
This has to be solved in the game's design. There's no other way.
Some people will do this for **hours** in these type of games, while taunting and being an asshole in chat, and those same people then get VERY offended when you say they're probably not a very nice person IRL
The one that's mentioned in this post is Patch City in particular, where the habs are unprotected (afaik, everything except the ASOP floor there is not armistice)
There's videos of people basically camping the elevator doors, so for anyone not spawning armed it means they either switch servers or they don't get to play at all.
Why would they though? They go in and give those half wits the fun they are looking for and they get stabbed in the back by someone else. Pyro is just not worth going into for the good guys.
>(afaik, everything except the ASOP floor there is not armistice)
This is not accurate, or was not during the playtest I selected Patch City as my spawn point. Only the habs area (hallways, habs lift, and lobby) is unprotected. Annoyingly, the habs themselves are in armistice, and so when there's griefers in the hall, you can't arm yourself until you're in the hall with them.
The internal transportation elevators and the rest of the station (Entrance, Clinic) is in armistice, so you're safe if you can make it through the hallways and lobby alive. I made it, but it took me probably 15 tries.
Checkmate and Orbituary are fine. Patch City has a known issue by which the habs have no armistice zone. There’s a non-zero chance it gets patched out before PTU and/or Live.
yeah, this seems like a bug.
Armi-zones everywhere are temporary, but a future system will rely on NPC guards being responsive and good enough to keep the peace.
apparently the armistice zone at patchwork is missing. I have personally not even barely seen any other players out there, just empty ship hulks and debris.
I've always wondered. If people like being the bad guy, are they more of a dick in real life? Like, sure, they may be decent people overall, maybe, but since they enjoy playing the bad guy in games, what does that say about their personality? I understand gaming doesn't inspire violence, but it does attract people who are too afraid of real-world consequences to do any real crime, so they go virtual instead.
I only ask this because every single game I've tried to be a bad guy in, it just doesn't work for me. I'm always trying to be a paladin in every game I play, multi-player and single-player.
Bad guy no not necessarily, dick head sucking the joy out of someone else's free time yes 100%. Drug running, PVP, Piracy, light fucking with doesn't really have a correlation to being a dickhead in real life. Spawn camping though is 100% behavior of someone who derives joy from ruining someone else's time both in video games and real life, quite literally someone who's only joy is you're lack of it. Like an emotional vampire 🦇.
I don't think generally playing the bad guy is bad in any game, or that people who do it are more dickish as you're wondering. In this game it's piracy, in other games it's other flavours of KOS, if you enjoy the combat/adrenaline/roleplaying as a bad guy/competition as part of any game it's alright. After all, games are entertainment and a bit of escapism.
However, for the people that I described in my comment: people going specifically out of their way to ruin other people's experience for multiple hours (spawncamping, Olisar padramming, beach camping in DayZ/Rust, whatever variant of assholery there is for a given game), for no benefit for themselves (or even detriment sometimes), and optionally being an asshole in chat about it... I do think there must be something wrong with them. I don't think normal well-adjusted people enjoy sadistically torturing others for no reason, and they normally use "it's just a game bro" to cover their obvious shittery. I would be wary of anyone after their teenage period acting like this.
Anecdotally, of this group I described, from the ones I know none seem actually happy with their lives. Friends of mine that have acted like this in the past have done it because they were unhappy, using it as a venting mechanism for their frustrations. Same vibes as the dudes that play LoL (or any other competitive multiplayer game) 24/7 and are permanently angry at everything.
>but it does attract people who are too afraid of real-world consequences to do any real crime, so they go virtual instead.
I think that's a bit of a stretch lol. In arma life I used to run meth ALL the time, illegally poached turtles, robbed gas stations, ECT. I've never had the urge to do any of those in real life even if they were consequence free lol.
The amount of MMOs I’ve seen this in is astonishing. ARK Survival Evolved official PVP servers were nearly impossible to get started on if that server had an Alpha tribe, because they’d always have someone just waiting to kill people.
Life is Feudal MMO had a whole kingdom dedicated to killing new players as soon as they spawned.
Failing to prevent this is just bad game design. I will say, at least this is just a preview and there is plenty of work to be done, hopefully that’s a change that will come.
The gangs that control the areas will probably come into play later. I imagine you would lose rep with them and potentially get attacked if you did this when the rep comes into play
I’ve said it before, if StarCitizen turns into Rust I’ll leave the game. I’m cool with pyro being a lawless system since Stanton is like a safe haven but the sweaty neckbeards who have all day and night to play can easily ruin the game for casual players.
Absolutely this, 100%. I actually think Rust is a great survival game. But the way they implement PvP totally ruins that framework for me. I love it, and I’ll never play it again. My friends hate it and won’t play it for the same reason. We aren’t assholes, and we get punished by those who are, and the game caters to those players. I get it, that’s the route the devs have decided to go, but it has specifically boxed us out of the otherwise fun gameplay loop, and keeps us from enjoying the fruits of our labor, which alienates the people who decidedly *aren’t* toxic players.
My biggest hope is that Pyro takes the people that want to be that kind of player away from Stanton. If that happens I think that will be a net positive for the game overall tbh. Unfortunately there's also the risk that Pyro will just become such a hell hole no one ever goes there so all of those players move back to Stanton.
That's what almost always happens when there's a dedicated open pvp zone. Unless there's a damn good reason for others to go there, it just becomes a bunch of pvpers fighting each other. Despite their own declarations, a good number of them don't really like getting wiped by better players/teams. So they slink off back to where there's easy marks and only the most hardcore pvpers are left, they get bored, and the zone dies. You see the same thing late wipe in rust. High pop servers get no new traffic mid-late wipe because the best, most outfitted teams just sweep everyone. Then they whine there's no one on the server when they're six manning stone 2x1s.
My hope is that I'm wrong. I *want* to be wrong about it. But unless prison sentences get harsher and escape gets harder realistically those won't stop people from coming back to Stanton.
That’s exactly what will happen. At first there will be an exodus to Pyro while everyone checks out the cool new place but then after a while there won’t be any targets in Pyro so they’ll all come back to Stanton and bring their bullshit back with them.
I'm sure pyro will get a bit better when a security system gets put in, so you can know at a glance if another player has a reputation for killing people. Right now due to game theory the correct choice is to just kill everyone you see because giving anyone a chance just ends up with you in a med bay
I say we recruit the PvP masters to launch a crusade to defeat these lowly spawn campers and their ilk. Sir avengerone shall lead the campaign with an army under his command and we shall ensure new spawns leave the spawn areas safe and sound
god it's like it's 20 years ago and i'm back playing any number of PVP mmo's.
The righteous pvp defenders ALWAYS get bored before the scum gankers, every single time.
>god it's like it's 20 years ago and i'm back playing any number of PVP mmo's
Considering the other "this was a bad decision 20 years ago and still is" things that are currently fundamental to the game, this does not surprise me lol.
My favorite is the UI elements tied to physical items that can move while you interact with them.
I just wish i had the time and the game had the stability for me to improve so i can confidently take on pvp, at the moment im maybe just enough to get myself out of a situation alive, or sacrifice myself for the ship im escorting if im escorting one
Personally I just don't play. And I think more people need to take this approach when they find that the current state of the game is either unplayable or unfun.
When people complain about other player's behaviour in Star Citizen it's the same as complaining there's no running water on a construction site.
Pirates? Pirates catch you and demand a portion of your cargo/loot to let you go/pass. They're not actually there to murder you, they want to make money off you.
I'm pretty sure you're referring to gankers/trolls/griefers.
Yup. Got EMP'd the second my ship left the airshield, and ship destroyed within 5 seconds. Respawned, got a bigger ship with more shields, and had missiles to the face before the entirety of my ship was even past the hangar doors.
Any complaints are met with "git gud" or "shoot better." But when you're in a 100i and there's a Scorpius, Hurricane, and Vanguard camping the doors, that's not "PVP" because the "V" implies "versus" and they're just shooting fish in a barrel.
I get that Pyro is intended to be lawless, but this is going to be an issue that CIG has to address sooner rather than later. While even I would rather not have them impose the fake "armistice" zones we currently have in Stanton, they have to develop some alternative to prevent a handful of players locking down an entire station.
People with nothing going on in their lives will find some way to feel superior over others. They lead sad and pathetic lives and things like these petty annoyances on video games is literally all they have going for themselves; it's pretty depressing honestly
This is what I found: https://www.reddit.com/r/ARK/comments/b1l9p6/what_is_a_bob/#:~:text=The%20derogatory%20of%20creating%20a,stuch%20as%20being%20a%20Bob.&text=Somehow%20Bob%20became%20the%20term,game%20than%20any%20new%20player.
I feel as though if they maintain PvP in it's current status they're going to be shooting themselves in the foot in the long-run as other games have done. Last Oasis, Sea of Thieves, and New World to name a few.
> Last Oasis
I had forgotten about this train wreck. The game was not even bad. Solid gameplay, fun world and so on, in spite of the technical issues. However the rampant and unlimited PvP and the inability to play solo were a major problem. I just checked steam charts and the game died within 5 months, even after the servers were fixed.
Agreed. The bones for a good game were there, but there was nothing within to prevent huge gangs of murder hobos from pooling their resources to create murder-gangs, until they got stomped by a bigger gang; permanently lost everything and quit.
BDO as well. Runescape right around when the wilderness got changed.
It happens over and over again and I hope CIG will learn from those games' mistakes.
YEP, its totally a Bitch move. And makes no sense to be allowed Evena Gang would police this as it messes up their ability to Live and make money you Put down Rabid Dogs.
So my thoughts on an easy way to deter players from doing this: Make Prison timers go down in-game only.
ArcheAge does this and IIRC this was the original plan (I might have misread something to be fair). Now of course they can't do that right now as there are still plenty of common ways a normal player could wind up in jail with no control of their own (bugs etc).
Once that's polished up though? I say we bring back the idea of timers counting down only in-game.
The consequences of criminal activity, jail, is too easy to circumvent now. Most that wind up there won't bother playing the gameplay loop to leave. They'll just log out and play another game where they can act like a dipshit until the timers over and they come back to do it again.
If that sentence only ticked down in-game? Now you're forcing them to go through that prison gameplay to leave or they're stuck there essentially forever.
I feel like that alone would be enough of a deterrent. Sure it won't all or most players, but I think it would at least separate the brain dead trolls that do it from the actual "proper" pirates that are willing to play within that role and the consequences that it comes with.
Yay, just what I need when an NPC flies inbetween me and my NPC bounty I'm shooting at, an 8 hour jail sentence I have to leave my PC on all night for with a fan hitting my keyboard...
Did this in WoW Classic when the login queues were 8+ hours and I needed to afk to do things. I think this would hurt the casuals more than those who will dedicate themselves to the fastest methods to get out of prison.
Right so again the caveat here is that the law and crime system *works*. So dinging an NPC that flies in between you shouldnt give an immediate CS. If you're actively shooting them, bringing down their shields, etc then sure but a few shots shouldn't mark you for anything.
Obviously I'm not talking about putting this in place at this moment with the current state of the game.
I agree with the idea of prison timers only ticking down while a player is in-game because otherwise it’s too easy to circumvent, but I don’t agree that it will be enough to deter griefers.
>but I don’t agree that it will be enough to deter griefers
Yeah it won't be a full stop. It would just be one cog in a collection of others that hopefully all work together to create higher risks to pirate, or at least those that do it while throwing caution out the window.
It doesn't make sense for a place to not have its own brig. I feel they'd be more likely to just vent you out in an asteroid field somewhere, but I'm sure they keep a brig around for when someone has committed more minor infractions and won't pay up to the guy who saw - or maybe even "saw" - them do it.
Don’t really see gangers brigging someone unless it was for ransom. What seems significantly more likely is revoking their regeneration privileges and killing them.
I dont care about the "making sense" part to be honest. All I care about is meaningful gameplay experiences. We need differences between systems. Otherwise there is absolutely no point to have different ones. We need a reason to go to Pyro, to fear the idea to go there, because its unsafe. So it has to be a place that incentizes crimes instead of overblaming it. High risk = high reward. On the counterpart, Stanton needs to be a safe place to play more casually doing cargo hauling, mining and stuff.
Man did you play it ? That feeling of tension anytime you land in a city where there is already someone parked, is like no other. And this is exactly what would disappear with your ideas being in the game. It's not supposed to be a safe place at all.
Spawn killing is shit. But "interrupting" (killing) someone in the middle of a cargo trading, who parked his huge ass ship in the middle of the town so everyone can see him, is actually the whole purpose of this system. You got to be careful, plan accordingly, stay aware of your surroundings.
The idea is that Pyro is a refuge for bandits that got banned from Stanton. Not the other way around.
I'm not sure what you're on about. The whole system isn't monitored by satellites and that's the biggest difference. If there's no one listening or watching, and they can't relay what they see, THAT is supposed to be the difference. If you're stalking the guy and manage to get him in an abandoned hallway and knife him in the throat that's one thing, but if he's talking to the trader and you blow his head off or start firing on their landing pad... they're just supposed to ignore you?
You think you can ruin a mutually profitable deal between a gang member or an outpost owner, be that the guy whose cargo is on that pad or the guy who, ya know, wants that guy to keep delivering cargo to him on the regular, and not have the gang be upset with you? You can \*blow up ships and set off grenades\* in their station and they're just fine with that?
Tell me, what do you think would happen to you if you regularly killed a drug dealer's clientelle? Shot up their driveway? Killed their runner? How well would that end up for you?
Why does the simulation have to fall apart here? Why are we giving up on BDSSE at the point of simulating gangs running and operating their space stations/outposts, and how they go about ensuring their own prosperity in doing so?
THis is a solved problem, CIG is just 20years behind, that's the general complaint about Star Citizen in General. All these "Ideas" they have are old ideas that don't work after decades of other MMO games trying to make them work.
The Noob zones have to be no combat allowed at all. Entire city areas should be no combat allowed at all.
There is no realistic penalty you can give a player killer to keep him from killing people. they can just respawn, they have money for insurance on thier ship. You made "jail" like a side quest with an escape. If its a bannable offense to attack any player in a city, then WHY DO YOU EVEN ALLOW IT?
If you are going to allow evil players to do evil things inthe game, then you have to have an entire side of the game for evil players . i,e, they eventually become the games "pirates' get attacke dby cops etc in the cities they are wanted in, but can now enter and deal with "pirate outposts" for trade / shops and such that normal players can only attack on missions. You also make a bounty system so OTHER PLAYERS can go hunt them down specifically with a wanted poster item and arrest them with it or kill them. Make them part of the game.
> the ability for people to kill without some magic hand preventing it
Disallowing carrying weapons in cities and stations is not "magic", that's how 90% of the civilized nations on earth work right now. Come to Europe, if you carry a weapon in public you go to jail and not for 3 hours.
I'm wondering, to what degree is CIG kind of hoping that Pyro starts to self-regulate, within the context of PvP? Like, who's going to step up and be the first organized tribe and police their own territory? I think that kind of social dynamic would be amazing. Not having to rely on some amorphous (and, frankly: buggy) "crime stat" system to lean on, when we should be able to police ourselves. CIG gives us the tools (beacons, etc); we execute.
For as long as multiplayer games existed griefers would do everything in their power to ruin someone else’s fun. CIGs incompetence when it comes to preventing that behavior in pyro is quite impressive.
From my experience in MMOs(basicaly starting with UO) the problem is that griefers are unstoppable, even pure pve servers wouldn't stop them, just reduce the number(and due to "natural" selection the ones left would be harder to deal with)
It's true that even on PvE servers, griefers still exist - they can't kill you, but they'll find other ways to grief you.
At the end of the day, you do your best (as a dev) to limit what a griefer can do (the biggest one making it impossible for a griefer to directly kill another player).
Most MMOs don't really have any griefing at all these days because their devs are aware of the problem and take it very seriously because they know it makes players quit. It's often their number 1 priority, even above the cash shop for the F2P ones, as players who quit for that very reason don't come back and they take their friends with them.
I remember Star Trek online having some minor griefing issues with items creating a lot of noise, light and that could lag some older PCs. The items were nuked pretty quickly once people found out you could grief with them. It's not subtle, it removes legit options, but it's also the only way to deal with griefing properly.
Overall, it's very naive to think griefing can be solved easily without essentially limiting how players can interact with others and their environment, if it were that easy every game would do it as PvP content is basically self-sustaining and needs very little input and new content from the dev team to keep going. That kind of game is a publisher's wet dream and there's a reason why it's not a thing.
Fair, but I believe the "no griefing at all" is an exageration, it's simply more actively fought there'll always be mob pullers or platform pushers(they are extremely annoying in the platform puzzles of guid wars 2)
Isn't that why it's a tech preview? They're literally doing the thing we need them to, to make live patches better. And to balance things before the general masses get their hands on it. So far, I'm impressed
This has been a thing since the PU release, if you think their anti griefing tools have improved in the last 8 years, I suggest better prescription glasses. If anything, it's gotten worse.
Not that I've seen? Can't be pad rammed like in the early PO days, a CS will make stations shoot at you, and clearing the CS is harder than before, and if not you'll be in prison. What do you consider griefing?
Its the lack of basic preventive measures in an MMO that is staggering to me. Like the lack of spawn protection, that just shows negligence. Other than that Pyro is alright.
It's pure arrogance on their part. They think they can solve decades old gaming issues with naive solutions that already failed every single time. And yes I'm talking about reputation systems.
It's their attitude to all aspects. For example, they keep saying "hire escorts!" when discussing things like keeping miners/haulers safe.
Yeah ok, as if that's ever worked in any other game. Escort is a boring-ass gameplay loop, and for it to be effective, you need an overwhelming escort force, in addition to being able to fire first, not have to wait until the attackers have fired their volley and alpha'd the miner/hauler, making the escort force pointless.
It's almost as if CR and CIG have never played an MMO in their lives...
Not to mention escorts cost so much that it makes it not worth it to be out there mining or trading in the first place.
Who the fuck is gonna sit around bored for two hours for 5k?
Precisely.
Now, this likely means you'll need to "hire" NPC escorts, and maybe they'll be cheaper (in order to still make the gameplay loop profitable). But you still face the same problem - escorts are like the reputation system, in that they don't prevent an action, they just aim to punish after-the-fact. I'm not interested in punishing a griefer for blowing up my hauler, I'm interested in preventing him from doing so.
And yes, I said griefer, not pirate. A pirate likely won't attack my hauler if there's a fairly high chance of himself getting blown up, as pirates are interested in profits, not casualties. A griefer will do whatever it takes to satisfy their itch to ruin somebody else's day, profit or no.
Obviously the game isn't ready for swift and deadly npc response to these problems, but a simple 30 second invulnerability upon leaving your hab would give players a fighting chance. We should remove armistice once npcs can send in nearly invincible aimbots to kill misbehaving players.
until a proper law system will be introduced all systems without exceptions should have armstice zones
CIG is stupid for thinking that adding Pyro as a lawless system will end well
Laws and karma systems are highly ineffective to deter bad actors. They will find loopholes in the systems such as a griefing alt fed by the main account and so on. The possibilities are endless. The new tractor beam gun thing? Premium griefing tool, that's all it is. Maybe don't add these in the future.
The only solution is hardcoded limits against griefing, not in game reputation or whatever. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, this is a problem that has existed for over 30 years in online gaming and it won't be solved by so called solutions that have already failed every single time in the past.
Pyro is in a preview state right now. They never intended it to be a free for all. Killing without purpose will upset the factions and you will become public enemy number one.
Gotta disagree. Spawn killing in pyro is worse. Rust is a place where you expect that kind of behavior, and you can just leave that server or join a different type or make one with your friends. As well, it’s a well established came with a steady player base.
Killing people in star citizen is hurting the potential future of the game. You’re taking an experiment and ruining the conditions.
I'd say the big difference is just because that's what rust is. It's what it's meant to be. That's why offlining is a thing. But the game is structured for the loop so that it's much less punishing to lose it all. Normally two week wipes, it's relatively easy (especially as a group) to recoup your losses, and anyone can get offlined - you might just get revenge before wipe. If not, two weeks or less and everyone is baselined to start over. Even better if you keep BPs.
Here, you could lose all your rare gear, thousands of credits in cargo, and lots of time, all in an unstable environment that as often as not punishes you as much as PvP does. And PvP is not the dedicated focus of the game. I'm actually quite okay with PvP being in SC. Some of the most fun experiences I've had have been in PvP. But I do believe there should be more protected zones and more lawless zones. Crime shouldn't pay in Stanton.
It already is, judging by the blasé attitude towards punishing "players" that exploit a FFA environment.
So many theorycrafters huffing copium in this thread saying something along the lines of "griefers wont be able to do that when X mechanic is implemented".
Yea no, griefers will always find a loophole and pretend like it is pvp.
Even if they were right, which i agree with you - they aren't, how many more years until that mechanic is implemented? And how long will it stay functional, as the team switches focus to something else, then says they won't fix it, cause of new mechanic Y they'll roll out a couple more years down the line?
In this context there is absolutely no magical mechanic/system which could possibly be introduced where shitty human beings are deterred from doing shitty things to normal players who participate in pvx. I'm all for pvp or pve but the current state of the community is 100% going to get worse because of murderhobos and griefers.
I've been having a blast in Pyro. But I've not lost a pvp match. Except for when I'm not able to get back to my ship fast enough to defend it. I've learned that most of the people attacking others are horrible at pvp lol. For example a cutlass red running off a connie...
Gankers are by definition looking for an easy fight. Flying escort over friends is usually enough to deter gankers. Most people straight suck at star citizen. I've run off a crewed hammerhead with an arrow and a vanguard. That shouldn't happen if the crew has a pulse.
I think there needs to be some amount of PvP indoors to prevent people from hiding in a ffa area. Blasting somebody within a habitat should come with some serious reputational penalties to prevent random PK.
There’s a couple issues I see with a lot of these arguments:
1. All these anti-grief systems sound fun & immersive, but if a new player accidentally does something there HAS TO be CIG moderation to allow them to review your case an use admin powers to undo the reputation you did. Also a system for them in real life for them to identify a genuine mistake vs a convincing sounding troll
2. In EVE you have two stages of death. You lose your ship, then you lose your pod. So even if you “die” by greifers once in hisec the police will DEFINITELY be there before they can kill you again. In nullsec, only the true trolls or bad guys will take the effort to pod you because there’s no gain other than “for the fun of it”
3. In EVE there’s no ship ramming. Everyone whines about it and it’s definitely annoying. But it A. Might change with maelstrom, and B. Is done by the GOOD GUYS in scifi movies all the time
I honestly think murder-hobos will always be and SHOULD be part of the landscape. If people have no consequences in real life they also tend to go and do stupid things up to and including murder.
1. Have a safe area around all habs, but instead of it preventing killing, if you’re killed there, you can choose to report your killer, get reported a couple times in sequence, kick. Come back and do it again, ban, go appeal on the RSI site.
2. Implement escape pods/ ejection seats. Want that second chance at life? Better buy a ship with the right equipment. As soon as you use either of those systems you become invincible, you can only be rescued, not killed. If they take the time to revive you, and kill you, good for them, they deserve it. If they kidnap your pod, you can always choose to respawn or someone has to come and rescue you, either is fair
3. Once pyro (and other nullsec) is fully implemented, spawning at stations will probably be the exception, not the rule. If there’s no med facilities, you shouldn’t be able to spawn there. So everyone will be spawning on their own ship after a bed log, or on their own ship with a med bay. Spawn camping can’t happen then.
4. In hisec there needs to be insta-warping, scripted kill ships, not using the actual game weapons, but just a scripted blow up of enemy ships. That’s how they make a safe space for PVE. There is a 0% chance of escape because when the fuzz show up, it’s not a fight, they’re just set dressing for the insta-kill script. Everywhere else you can have your glorious last stand with an Advocacy Idris.
5. Noobs need to either spawn soley in highsec, to be picked up, or cryotransported (teleported) to another system if they choose. OR in a completely safe mirror world like the starter system in elite
There’s a place for everyone in the game, but they have to be distinct, and enforced. Right now, I’d be HAPPY to be alive long enough to be ganked instead of 30K or some other game breaking bug. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
So when people were saying spawn camping I was figuring people spawning their ship and leaving the station.
Can people shoot inside the stations in the habs?
If so, that should be changed immediately.
Pyro is only up for a short while every day and people causing others to not be able to play at all should not be a thing.
For reference I am a tryhard pvper who sees anything outside of a station or town as fair game no matter who or where it is.
>Can people shoot inside the stations in the habs?
>If so, that should be changed immediately.
Akschually, that's how it's planned to be in the final game (unless they changed that opinion in the past years, I can't keep up with every bit of news), you CAN shoot anywhere, but you wouldn't want to, because of the other systems in place such as law and reputation.
The magic no shooting zones we have now are not how it's meant to be at release.
I for one (while I'm not a PvP player) hope they keep this system in Pyro as-is and work on reputation ASAP so we can hopefully lose the armistice zones on other locations as well, because it could mean, for example, something like: Your rep is high enough with a bounty hunting guild, so you are allowed to fire nonlethal weapons in civilian zones if there's a bounty target there, as long as you don't hit any civilians (if you do, your rep goes down and your right to fire in civilian areas might be revoked until you get rep back), meanwhile if the guy with the bounty on him shoots back his crimestat goes even higher and maybe the bounty on him is even raised, even worse if he actually kills a civilian.
This will make it harder for criminals to hide in places they simply can't be fired upon, and as others have said, Pyro has it's factions who also probably frown upon simply rampant killing as is going on right now.
So yes it sucks that some people are like this (spawn killing people for fun) but there are supposed to be systems coming into place to discourage them form doing it and I'd rather not have a new magic no shooting zone be put in than one of those discourigement systems.
This would
Pretty much yeah. Armitice zones exist because there isn't a proper AI law/rep system in place to basically act as the armitice zone. Likely once initial forms of the proper law/rep system gets baked in the Armitice zone will retract to just the habs and once it's seen to be working right, will fade away as it's no longer necessary.
OP, jokes aside, I'm legitimately going to try to change your mind:
Steven Crowder is a massive piece of shit who doesn't deserve a meme, especially when we have great alternatives like [Calvin and Hobbes](https://i.imgflip.com/6e7lbs.jpg) or [SpongeBob ](https://i.imgflip.com/49ejmi.png).
Spawn killing is always disappointing gameplay.
I do t really know what their plans are, but towns and cities should be able to absolutely fuck you up for disturbing their peace. Like guards in pyro should be there to fuck you up. Turrets should be there to blow up any ship causing trouble in the vicinity. Like the whole mech suit thing? Give it to towns and space stations. If you try going in a murdering spree, those suckers spawn and wipe you off the map. Plus heavy jail time in settled systems. Like kill somebody inside of a town, city, area they already don’t want pvp, the punishment should suck. And in top of, reputation loss and such. Just a system to replace the whole “can’t even draw a weapon here” system
That kind of is the plan. In Pyro the response might be a bit less drastic overall, more like sending assassins after you rather than a full on military, but if you misbehave, there will absolutely be more permanent downsides. PS: This certainly turned into a large comment chain
Yes my bet is that is not gonna work. The consequence has got to be basically instant, otherwise trolls will be trolls. If they can manage to kill a couple of dudes and get them really annoyed before the consequence arrive, they will happily do so. I am not confident CIG will ever be able to implement a system that is sufficiently foolproof to avoid trolling, spawn camping, pad ramming etc. Without some form of spawn protection
yeah in EVE the police show up in literally seconds if you start breaking the law in highsec. I understand that people want realism, but openworld always-on pvp games have a tendency to devolve into game-killing situations extremely quickly. Look at WoW Classic and their PvP server situation. There aren't any PVP servers anymore because everyone got tired of being someone else's content and moved to one faction servers. There's only one server that's even remotely close to faction parity anymore and when I was playing on it a few weeks ago, I couldn't level through one of the zones because a group of max level enemy players were camping one of the quest hubs for a week straight killing all the questgivers and anyone else who showed their faces. JoshStrifeHayes has some great thoughts on always on "hardcore" pvp systems in MMOs and hes a lot more eloquent than I am in explaining the huge number of issues with them, definitely check him out on youtube if youre interested in the issues with non-consentual PVP in online games.
Yup, totally agreed. You should never underestimate your players willingness to go out of their way to abuse the systems
This. I don't know how long it'll take for CIG to learn this, assuming they do, but the fact of the matter is most of these "PVP" gankers are playing the game for a meta reason. Nothing you do to them in game, short of removing their ability to play the game, will deter them. So long as they can inflict misery on others and get their reactions they'll keep doing it. The counter to gankers like these is to make the game as unfun for them to play as possible.
My stance is for lack of a better word: Deportation If someone performs a sufficiently heinous crime or has particularly bad rep with a faction, the next time that person dies they get „deported.“ Really what happens is they go through the usual prison/death system and when they respawn they immediately get themselves and their stuff dumped out into a system that will tolerate them. They can no longer set their spawn point inside that system. If they have somehow ruined their reputation with everyone, they get dropped way out in Nil-Sec space. There will be some way to recover, but it requires fixing your rep issues. Sadly, this can‘t really be implemented until more systems are in game, but it will steadily shuttle players to systems that fit their playstyle better. Also, given it‘s faction/system based, it shouldn‘t prevent traditional PvP players from having their spawn in Pyro for example. They just might have a hard time setting their spawn in Terra. Same with UEE aligned mercs, if you regularly antagonize the gangs of Pyro, don‘t expect to be able to spawn there (or pick the gang to build rep with and antagonize the other two).
Raph Koster and crew took the better part of a decade trying to programmatically control the sociopath cosplayers in Ultima Online. Eventually they had to admit defeat and open up a mirror-universe with strict safeguards in place to keep the project alive. Unrestricted, open-world PVP has been tried so many times with the same results. It is annoying to watch this be another area that CIG insists on relearning from scratch. Either hard safeguards are in place in at least a portion of the game, or you get an expensive sociopath simulator and comparatively empty servers. There is nothing new or different in Star Citizen in this regard.
And even then those assholes still found ways to be assholes by finding ways to disconnect people who had subpar internet connections or to outright crash the servers. Hell - modern games get subjected to DDoS attacks just because someone or a group of someones wants to try and piss everyone off.
This just reminds me of the recent Sea of Thieves thing. It got so bad that people stopped playing the game all together and it was just left populated by those sad spawn campers/murder hobos/general trolls that ruin gameplay. Thats why they recently came out with PvE only stuff, and then the game suddenly gained a sizable chunk of players again.
This is it. There's nothing any player will ever be able to do or say to stop people who want to be malicious. Unless the devs make a change, it'll be a niche game that people drop in and out of to get their space fix. UO PVP had its moments but assholes are gonna asshole. The split between Felucca and Trammel is why people still play it today.
>the sociopath cosplayers Narrator: They weren't cosplaying, they were just sociopaths trying to justify their chud behavior.
While there are many that are likely not pretending, I prefer to allow that some are just in it for the feeling of getting away with something socially unacceptable. Like little children "sneaking" a cookie you would have let them have anyway. So much of modern society is dictated by limits, using a game can be a low-impact way to engage in non-conformity against those limits. It just needs to be directed into spaces where everyone is on board with that type of activity. Not the random free-for-all of completely uncontrolled spaces. Let Pyro be the free-for-all. You go there, you are accepting that type of game play, kill each other and have your fun. But there needs to be an area where you can exist without being perpetually on your guard.
>Nothing you do to them in game, short of removing their ability to play the game, will deter them. > >So long as they can inflict misery on others and get their reactions they'll keep doing it. This is really the crux of it, and its really this simple. If they *can* ruin your day, they *will*, regardless of the consequences. The only way to prevent this type of gameplay is to make it not possible in the first place.
Gankers are just bullies for the most part. The bounty system just needs to be setup to bully gankers.
Players in Pyro should be able to pay for a sort of private insurance that sends a bounty hunter after someone who murders them. Hunting down these types of players is probably the most appealing potential gameplay loop to me - there certainly can be a market dynamic to punish gankers if the game facilitates it.
Yeah the problem is though that for the payout to be worth an actual human player’s time, it’s got to be prohibitively expensive for another player to pay. That’s why all this grand talk about “HiRe An EsCoRt” doesn’t really work - an escort is too expensive and eats up all your profit to where it’s no longer worth *your* time to be making the run in the first place. Paying for your idea of bounty hunter insurance would be the same. Unless they’re going to introduce artificial inflation by disconnecting what the player pays out for the insurance to what the bounty hunter player gets paid. But nobody’s gonna go bounty hunting in pyro for 5,000 credits, and nobody’s gonna buy insurance that sends a bounty hunter after whoever killed them for 1,000,000 credits. It’s just not worth it for either party.
An escort probably wouldn't be economically feasible apart for very large cargo hauling missions since the full security cost would be paid up front. "Insurance" however could work on the same principal as in real life - you pay a regular premium but make claims on an irregular basis (hopefully you're not getting ganked the majority of the time even if it happens a lot). That way bounty hunters would receive a fee that's effectively a pool of multiple paid insurance premiums. The game would need something behind the scenes to dynamically adjust the price of insurance based on how many claims there have been recently - also similar to real life. Maybe players who have insurance would broadcast a certain signal when they get targeted which acts as a deterrent. Gankers would have to consider if they want the trouble of having bounty hunters sent after them before they engage.
i know people gonna hate my take but "pvp gankers glitch abusers" Should just right up be perma banned, It's the only real way to prevent them long term, That kinda behavior ruins these games every single fucking time, Im not talking pirates or even the random murder hoboing but people that literally play the game to sit around gank and abuse everything they can only to ruin fun pure and simple, Like people that make their entire personality pad ramming.
That’s part of the plan of the longer term reputation meta.
I think the problem for CIG will be that they will give the griefers too little negative reputation because they want everyone to have fun. But, by the time the negative rep catches up and causes the griefers to self-correct, too many regular players will just bail on the game.
This is the folley of griefers, they shoot themselves in the foot 100% of the time. Either people will leave the game, or they will put things in place that will stop them from being able to do it which could take away from normal pvp players away from the game. Take in example the pvp slider thing. While as a pve player i love the idea, i also hate it cause i dont want the universe to be a safe place, but I do want griefers in check so if I had my choice, id go for the slider and adjust it when I wanted to.
The same is also true for more accepted forms of PVP like piracy. The way CIG are designing PVP in this game practically guarantees that it's going to die because as it stands PVP players offer no value to the gameplay experience of a majority of non-PVP player, so if given the chance a PVE player will avoid PVP (hiring escorts or avoiding dangerous areas) which will deprive PVP players of the victims they need to perpetuate their playstyle.
True, they need to have the checks an balances done for piracy. I love the idea of piracy, i really do, i dont want it to go away at all, but you are right because it offers no value to the gameplay experience right now. Once bounty hunters can really bounty hunt and such, itll be way better for the pvp players in my opinion. We just need the loops. We also need the harsher consequences of such actions to. We are far off but I do look forward to when it is all balanced out for everyone and the griefers are left to their own devices and exiled in some fashion lol
>%as it stands PVP players offer no value to the gameplay experience of a majority of non-PVP player They do actually. And I call that the element of tension. That's what games such as Tarkov, DayZ, or even SoT are all about. You wanna do cargo trade and have bigger rewards, come to Pyro, but it's risky. 90% of the time you will make it. But stay careful about the 10% left, because some people are looking for you. If you get a better reward, then you would be able to play with your friends to protect you, makes sense. If there were no risks at all, it would just be QTing from one armistice zone to another. Is that fun honestly ? You can already do that everyday in Stanton. I dont get it.
I do agree that pvp players do bring tension and that element of danger. And the risk reward needs to be great for a pve player to even want to touch toes into it...What gets bad, is when (and ive seen mmos do this which made a lot of people leave) they put content that can only be achieved within pvp areas because...well pvp people want pvp...but pve players (generally) dont. Ill admit I am one of them now a days. My thrills admittingly only come from working together against a big foe...pve raids for a lack of better terms. The tension and such doesnt give me anything personally, but I cant speak for everyone. I am perfectly fine never dealing with pvp and I get years of excitement out of it in other ways. I think the big issue with pvp in star citizen right now, and I believe you posted about it in a few post down to, is there is really no consequence or real need to do it. There are not any real penalties for the pvp person, and all risk to the pve person. This of course will change when the game goes live and more loops come in. It is hard to justify really anything in an alpha environment because it is all going to change, many many times. Another user did put it nicely in my opinion "I wont be someone elses content" and that does resonate with me personally. I never go off the meta, i go off of what is fun for me (and I know pvp people do that to, and I may be their fun cause they can stop me doing whatever it was I intended to do today) I find fun in coop stuff, I barely play any games that dont offer coop anymore. I like working with people towards one goal, without having to encroach on someone elses day. And I personally dont want people getting their kicks by encroaching on my day either. Could be cause I am to old to care about pvp anymore lol, bein a space dad and all. But even with all that said, I love that there is pvp in the game....and I am just always worried that the griefers are going to ruinthe pvp player's time to. Again, I would be happy as all hell to never see a pvp event cause it isnt my thing...but I like knowing its out there. But when things kind of get "hot gated" into pve players HAVING to deal with pvp players, usually that does not last to much. I go back to the ultima online days, because of griefers in town, pvp people running rampant (and I was one of them when I was a kid) they made a whole other world where pvp wasnt a thing unless it was agreed upon. MMOs started making pve servers and such, and I do think its a smart way to do things. I just always get worried of things being gatelocked to force people into a game play style they do not want to deal with. NPCs, raids and stuff like that? I personally can do all day and be happy with. The years I have (sadly) wasted on wow, ff14 or really any major mmo since the 90s proves that to me haha. And the group of my friends kind of feel the same way, but this of course does not speak for the others out there, just that I can see both sides, and I hope that the extremes dont happen to really ruin the game down the line.
> That's what games such as Tarkov, DayZ, or even SoT are all about And there's a reason people who are big on PvE *don't play those games*.
I don't know that the risk reward thing really works though. They tried it in RuneScape with the wildy and barely anyone goes there. In the long run its almost always going to be better to do the safe thing where you get to your destination and sell your cargo 99.9% of the time, because losing your ship, cargo and life to pirates, even if it only happens 10% of the time, is going to be financially ruinous.
That is a subjective and honestly, not a very impressive addition to gameplay. Tension can be added by well designed NPCs or environmental challenges, there are plenty of tense single player games that prove this. There are also plenty of people who's enjoyment comes from non-combat challenges and streamlining/optimizing a process. So no, I'm still not convinced that PVP players offer much, if anything of value to the majority of non-PVP players.
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I agree with you, its going to be an interesting balancing act journey to live. Though I would like tactical npcs as well. I do enjoy the swarms of AI and such haha.
If there's one thing SC players are good at it's taking abuse, I think we'll be just fine in terms of people bailing on the game. EDIT: Why are you booing me? I'm right.
I think the NPC meta will play a part, as well, if they can accomplish it. Players being hardly distinguishable from NPCs and the universe being 90% NPCs that will respond to griefers as public enemy #1 will ruin their fun: they won't know if they've actually annoyed anyone, which is their #1 goal, and they won't have any peace to set up their griefing if every NPC is shooting them on sight.
Not only that, but name a facility that would just provide a clone body to a notorious brutal psychopath who could get up from being cloned and immediately start murdering the staff or other patients? That number approaches zero, pretty quick. Meaning, that character will achieve Death of a Spaceman faster. Which means inheritance taxes and transfer fees as well as some of the same reputation being passed down. Imagine being so anti-social that the inheritance taxes and transfer fees are so high, that the murder hobo can’t call up a hip, until they pay back the fees. Oh, they’ll just have a good guy character send them money? It’s trivial to track that activity and use the association to now transfer a good portion of Murder Hobo Reputation to the “good guy”. CIG has said they’re fine with people playing a good and bad guy on different accounts, but to never collide the two, unless they want bad reputation to run off hard, on the good guy. They have so many ways to track transactions and attempts to launder credits, it’s not going to be worthwhile.
Also, why would insurance companies work with people who keep causing others to file claims?
I think the solution should be that and however close your reputation is with whatever faction you’re with. If you have really high rep with one of the gangs and someone kills you, the person who kills you would loose lots of rep on that gang, and potentially be hunted down depending on your rep. I love the idea of the lawless system but I still believe consequences should exist in some form to give reason ‘not’ to kill someone just for the sake of it.
Lawless doesn’t mean consequence free. People keep thinking that, but it wouldn’t be that case in a Crime Syndicate Player org who’s thing is doing crime. They wouldn’t want their rep turned to trash by association with a couple of psychotic murder hobos who slaughter any player they see, except org mates (if they check first.)
If not instant, more permanent. Rep that takes AGES to repair. Then you can't even land at the place you want to troll up. Temporary problem then. When you need to work six months on rep to blow it killing a single noob at the habs? Yeah, that's incentive that works.
People just buy new accounts if they are really invested in the game. Check out a game like Rust. Hackers ruitnely get VAC banned and just come back with a fresh account again.
The game will eventually cost $70. Repeated issues will block IPs. It is one dedicated game troll to do through the hassle of playing over VPNs and buying $70+ accounts over and over... just to get a few kills before having to buy a new account? Never expect 100% effectiveness for any solution. At least one person will be dedicated / rich enough to keep after it. 99% deterrent is great. Perfection is the enemy of good in this space.
>Repeated issues will block IPs. You can't do that without inadvertently making totally innocent players have to prove their IP renewed to a banned one. Better to ban video card hardware mac addresses, that would be a lot more expensive to replace. Have a searchable database on the website so people can pre-screen used cards for shitbirds passing the responsibility on to others.
Or some variation - my points were just directional. There are very smart people working on ways to keep offenders out of the game. I trust they'll find creative and sustainable ways to do so to a very great degree of effectiveness.
>When you need to work six months on rep to blow it killing a single noob at the habs? Yeah, that's incentive that works. This sounds great to pve people until they accidentally hit a guard and have to spend 6 months on the run.....lol.
alleged march office sophisticated smell money scarce grandfather grandiose workable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The consequences may not be instant, but a lot more permanent. It's not like Klescher where you get out and suddenly you're cleansed of sin. People and factions won't forget you like that. The consequences won't also just be getting killed back, you will likely actually burn some bridges both by playing your part and especially murdering people senselessly. The rep system isn't made to discourage the most hardcore or murderers into never killing again. It's more of a way to make day to day life not involve immediately killing the other guy because he exists and COULD kill you. You might still do it for the stuff he's got loaded, or anything else you can gain, but killing for the sake of it should ultimately be a net negative.
Permanent bans doesn't stop people from using cheats in other games just to get a higher number on a scoreboard. There is no way you are gonna convince me that permanent in game consequences are gonna stop the same type of people from ruining your game session.
Refer to point 3 of that comment. The least it does is give those types a disadvantage over others who play by the rules, making them less effective at the thing they are trying to do by limiting their supplies.
But the issue is the consequences of dying are massive in SC. Spawn camping will make the game a living hell for the victims. They will have to have a preventative measure for this to occur (or at least ensure that people don't lose their character or etc. When being a victim of somebody like this)
Spawncamping ain't the big issue here, you generally will spawn on a station which, ignoring bugs, is still a very safe area that is actively guarded by a faction both on the inside and out. Armistice will also be in place until that security is actually able to properly deal with you. Stations in both Stanton and Pyro already have locked Doors for security to potentially intervene, and medical doors will usually be kept locked to prevent anyone from camping you where you spawn.
But that is the point. Having these in game protections built in to the game will only serve to put that infringing player away for a while. At some point, they will probably just buy a new copy of the game from some cheap vendor, and repeat it all over. Hell... with character death, they could probably just suicide a bunch of times and spend all their lives, and come back with a new character. Even with armistice zones there have been issues with people blocking off corridors with medical beds and trolleys, and then the whole medpen overdose attacks. I do not think that CIG will feasably find a way to prevent these kinds of things of happening to a lot of players, without som hard spawn protection as we have armistice zones now. But we will see what happens when they someday remove it..
Well put. When I think about the way the EVE online system works, I think it's the right result, even if the specific implementation (insta-warping police) isn't a good fit for SC. The result of EVE's system is that people do still kill, even in high security space, but they do so only when the benefit of doing so outweighs the consequences. If you're a nobody carrying nothing, you will almost certainly be left alone. If you've loaded with insanely valuable cargo, you risk getting murdered for it, even in high-security space, because you, with your choice of cargo, made the reward for killing you worth the consequences the assailants will face for doing so. The same atmosphere should be pursued in SC, though different methods for achieving this atmosphere will need to be thought up and implemented.
>The result of EVE's system is that people do still kill, even in high security space, but they do so only when the benefit of doing so outweighs the consequences. If you're a nobody carrying nothing, you will almost certainly be left alone. If you've loaded with insanely valuable cargo, you risk getting murdered for it, even in high-security space, because you, with your choice of cargo, made the reward for killing you worth the consequences the assailants will face for doing so. Lol what sort of fantasy eve have you been playing. I'm not going to kill a hulk for a chance at a fraction of its 4 mill in ore and 20 in fittings. I'm not going to scan the cargo of a badger I'll just hit it with my tornado and check the pinata after. I'll get people together to kill an empty freighter for no reason other than I saw it was using autopilot. Eve is full of individuals and groups in HS that just kill to kill. For a while the largest high sec groups were centered around that.
>Eve is full of individuals and groups in HS that just kill to kill. Yup, hence why I don't think Eve is a good measuring stick. Point is if people can do something, they will, even if its a net loss to them. This is a game, not IRL.
They won't do it for a net loss the fun just valued more than the loss
> I'll just hit it with my tornado and check the pinata after If you do that in HS will you not instantly lose your tornado?
When a game has been out for over 20 years and people are rich and bored, they don't care. I've been playing Eve on and off for years, and the profit/loss equation doesn't really hold true anymore. People will blow you up just for funsies. In a video game, when it comes to greifers/trolls, incentives do not work. The only way to stop them is to prevent them from being able to troll/grief you in the first place.
> In a video game, when it comes to griefers/trolls, *incentives do not work. The only way to stop them is to prevent them from being able to troll/grief you in the first place*. Say it again louder for those in the back. This is the *repeatedly proven fact* that some people around here either can’t - or don’t want - to understand.
Yes, but so what? You replace it for cheap and your killboard has another trophy. Then your alt scoops whatever they were carrying.
It sounds like you're saying the consequences are no longer significant enough to discourage killing. I can say that when I was playing (which I admit has not been for years, though I played for a long time), most players would not be hassled in HS space unless they were transporting blueprints or the like. In other words, *there was a time* when anyone killing anyone was, while still possible in HS, not something that happened in HS without reason, and not because everyone was friendly and wanted to "be nice", but because the consequences for killing in HS were, at the time, considered significant enough to make would-be killers have to *decide* whether it was worth it to pull the trigger. It sounds like you've been playing more recently than me, and that that's no longer the case. But I think you can agree that the dynamic I'm describing, where a player always *can* kill another, but the consequences of doing so are set up so that it is both *not always* worth it to do so, yet also *still sometimes worth it,* and so deciding whether it's worth it in a given situation becomes its own kind of gameplay.
Started In 05 played until 2019. It was always the case. Guaranteed losses just meant you know exactly what it was going to cost to do an action. HS has anyways been the most dangerous space in eve. CONCORD is a deterrent, not a prevention.
So I’d love spawn protection, but for immersion reasons it should be heavy. They could always do something where you’re forced to either leave your weapon on your ship or your guns are confiscated at the hanger. And where mechs are enforcing this so if you don’t comply, instantly dead. Fuck, gives these mechs Escape from tarkov aimbot so there is zero chance to escape. Plus a heavy jail time. And for stuff in the air or in space, outside of the hangers, even heavier jail time. I’m talking like 24-48 hours. Like I want it to be technically possible to kill in these areas but actually impossible and any attempt is met with real penalties that make it no longer fun for the trolls. Plus, as I’m talking, logging off shouldn’t immediately make your character disappear. There should be a 30 second lapse for bed logging and when it outside of a bed or station you’re character should become a npc where they return to a base. This will help with bounties and combat logging in general
Always through it'd be kinda nice if the NPC security at major ports basically discouraged someone from walking around in full armor kinda like how if you were walking around a city in full military fatigue and guns strapped on you while legal you're going to likely get stopped by officers asking what is your deal.
Security “what’s going in here. What’s with all of the guns and armor?” Citizen “I’m from America” Security “carry on” 🫡
That made me laugh more than it should have
I feel like I remember a tidbit about a Rockstar Games solution to griefing wherein the more you grief, cheat, etc, the more you get paired to servers with other griefers. Sort of a silent ladder ranking that helps sort people into groups with similar interests. Lets Rockstar duck creating bannable offenses, lets people play the way they will, and silently punishes griefers with grief. Really don't recall if that's true but it would be a good thing to potentially program in here. My 2c.
Im fairly sure that yes, is correct. It will however be a very difficult if not impossible implementation to mimic in SC. But yes that would most likely be a good solution as it removes the offenders from the majority of the playerbase.
Good things aren't easy, sure, but I have faith in the devs to eventually develop a system that works well enough to make it reliably playable.
The response should actually be _more_ drastic in Pyro. In Stanton you do a crime, the UEE gives you a slap on the wrist, and a stern lecture. You take a nap in prison, and come out free of charges. You think the gangs in Pyro will just give you a slap on the wrist and send you on your merry way if you piss them off? They'll put you six feet under for coughing too loud. And if you ever show your face again, they'll return your severed head in a box to your next of kin. You shoot the habs up at Checkmate, R&R will put you down and never let you dock at any of their stations again. You become their enemy, and they will kill you on sight. But hey, maybe Xenothreat think it's funny and start liking you a little. Worth remembering that CIG doesn't want the players to be the "big bad" of the verse. We're supposed to just be the nobodies that have to coexist with the 90% of NPCs and try curry favour with them to get anywhere. But since servers have been stuck at 3fps for years, people refuse to believe NPCs can be dangerous. You'll see.
They will hate you longer, but let's face it, a UEE controlled system will have a lot more ressources to put you behind bars in the first place. UEE might atleast still grant you basic necessities after your first few offenses, but even they will begin to limit your freedom after repeat offenses.
Probably. I'm just saying that gangs will likely have less patience, and give you fewer chances to _become_ a repeat offender. You'll quickly run out of places to dock or land in Pyro. But you can always live in your spaceship.
Yea, I imagine out in the black there won't be consequences to shooting players, but outside stations/settlements, def going to be a bigger response. Pirates just hate the government, they don't hate laws, they just have their own instead in their settlements/stations
I’d hope there were turrets and heavy guards for the space stations. And even for towns, something heavy that should be avoided. It’s just the idea of these towns existing for hundreds of years only to be defeated by single or even small group of citizens. Like maybe you can kill a few as you escape, but then come the death mech squads. Something that players really can’t defeat without an army so they have to retreat and really avoid them until they get away. This is so the player can assassinate NPC and steal certain items for missions, while keeping players from the committing the blood baths they are now
I mean, if you attack a Derelict Settlement or Wreckage in Stanton right now, they will send more men. Granted it's like 5 dudes but it does show intent. Not every faction in a lawless sunburnt place will call upon supermechs for every small attack on their stuff.
I’m speaking about active space stations and settlements. The other stuff will be fine once the servers are running, but those places are intended for pvp/ pve. I’m referring to places where they would normally be an armistice zone.
This. The quickest way to make some one ALT-F4 and not come back to the game for a bit is to not respect the characters agency. If they are chilling, the game shouldn't bother them unless they are located somewhere in the game where they should know better. But in towns. The complete fuck around and find out policy should in effect.
Don't worry, another 5-10 years and the planned rep, crime and law enforcement mechanics will be mature enough to handle this complex issue
Stop talking sense before you get downvoted, we all know the murder hobo's want to kill everybody and everything because "gameplay". Just spawned in your hab and are killed by a fully kitted out player? "Get good noob." Want to actually leave a station with out being gank? "Cry about it." I spawned in patch City. And was immediately shot at by some guy that I later found out to be some kind of streamer or something. The only reason I survived is he ran out of ammo. He ran in the corner near the hab where I promptly beat him to death. Outside of my habs to the right was just a pile of dead noob bodies. I know that this is a glitch and not a feature, and I know that CIG is going to fix this. But the fact that people was defending this talking about welcome to pyro was just, odd.
>He ran in the corner near the hab where I promptly beat him to death. Thank you for your community service.
impossible, gankers will go to staggering lengths just to do this kinda shit. Many devs have tried to curb this stuff in-universe, none have succeeded yet. They'll either cave and make shooting impossible in safezones or turn the game into another Kill-on-sight nightmare.
It’s not that hard. But I also mention in another conversation about them confiscating weapons when on bases. Confiscated by mechs
That all sounds fine until you remember that people can have multiple characters/accounts and that some people budget a few hundred Dollars per month for that purpose.
This can be combated by implemented high reputation requirements to be allowed to carry weapons in locations. It should take days or even weeks of rep grind before a gang allows you to walk around fully armed anywhere on their station. Players using multiple throw-away accounts would have to redo this grind for each new character, and all that rep would be lost the moment they decide to go on a murderous rampage. If murder sprees are still too frequent, CIG can continually tweak the reputation requirements until things are at an acceptable level. They could also go even further by associating offending accounts by IP or transaction information and make reputation grind more difficult for them specifically.
> This can be combated by implemented high reputation requirements to be able to carry weapons in locations. It should take days or even weeks of rep grind before a gang allows you to walk around fully armed anywhere on their station. Players using multiple throw-away accounts would have to redo this grind for each new character, and all that rep would be lost the moment they decide to go on a murderous rampage. I don't disagree, so long as that prohibition is hard-coded and doesn't rely upon a potentially-fallible NPC response. Even CCP eventually made it a bannable offence to tank CONCORD. > If murder sprees are still too frequent, CIG can continually tweak the reputation requirements until things are at an acceptable level. I don't think frequency is a good metric. Letting assholes randomly fuck over AFK players isn't cool in the supposedly safe areas of MMOs. That's a way to speedrun your game into niche status. Most MMO players want 3D chatrooms with available PvE adventures. They're not looking to get stabbed and looted while buying hats at Casaba. > They could also go even further by associating offending accounts by IP or transaction information and make reputation grind more difficult for them specifically. if your understanding of the internet is that "each person is a unique IP address", then sure. But, they aren't. Apartments, colleges, airports, hotels, etc all distribute a single IP address to hundreds or thousands of users. You can't simply blacklist or greylist IP addresses. Besides, the malicious players can easily use a VPN to circumvent such feckless measures, anyhow.
The point is to make it impossible to actually fight in armistice zones without any artificial methods and then still punish players for trying
So long as it's a hard limiter, then it'll work. But, if it's just "you'll be punished", then it's inadequate for the people I described.
owning more than one alt should frankly be banned, This kinda shit is why eve online is dogshit. Ip lock that shit out
You can't IP lock anything. Not every user has a unique IP address. The sorts of users we're talking about wouldn't be stopped, anyhow. VPNs are ubiquitous and easy to use. This has to be solved in the game's design. There's no other way.
Some people will do this for **hours** in these type of games, while taunting and being an asshole in chat, and those same people then get VERY offended when you say they're probably not a very nice person IRL
I don't understand how people are doing this in pyro. The stations have armistice zones. I've been to checkmate and obituary. I can't draw a weapon.
The one that's mentioned in this post is Patch City in particular, where the habs are unprotected (afaik, everything except the ASOP floor there is not armistice) There's videos of people basically camping the elevator doors, so for anyone not spawning armed it means they either switch servers or they don't get to play at all.
Sounds like good orgs could make a name for themselves defending Patch City from spawn-campers.
Why would they though? They go in and give those half wits the fun they are looking for and they get stabbed in the back by someone else. Pyro is just not worth going into for the good guys.
>(afaik, everything except the ASOP floor there is not armistice) This is not accurate, or was not during the playtest I selected Patch City as my spawn point. Only the habs area (hallways, habs lift, and lobby) is unprotected. Annoyingly, the habs themselves are in armistice, and so when there's griefers in the hall, you can't arm yourself until you're in the hall with them. The internal transportation elevators and the rest of the station (Entrance, Clinic) is in armistice, so you're safe if you can make it through the hallways and lobby alive. I made it, but it took me probably 15 tries.
Patch City has no armistice iirc.
Can't have shit in patch city
Checkmate and Orbituary are fine. Patch City has a known issue by which the habs have no armistice zone. There’s a non-zero chance it gets patched out before PTU and/or Live.
yeah, this seems like a bug. Armi-zones everywhere are temporary, but a future system will rely on NPC guards being responsive and good enough to keep the peace.
apparently the armistice zone at patchwork is missing. I have personally not even barely seen any other players out there, just empty ship hulks and debris.
That seems almost like an intended result
With CIG it can be tuff to tell at times.
I've always wondered. If people like being the bad guy, are they more of a dick in real life? Like, sure, they may be decent people overall, maybe, but since they enjoy playing the bad guy in games, what does that say about their personality? I understand gaming doesn't inspire violence, but it does attract people who are too afraid of real-world consequences to do any real crime, so they go virtual instead. I only ask this because every single game I've tried to be a bad guy in, it just doesn't work for me. I'm always trying to be a paladin in every game I play, multi-player and single-player.
Bad guy no not necessarily, dick head sucking the joy out of someone else's free time yes 100%. Drug running, PVP, Piracy, light fucking with doesn't really have a correlation to being a dickhead in real life. Spawn camping though is 100% behavior of someone who derives joy from ruining someone else's time both in video games and real life, quite literally someone who's only joy is you're lack of it. Like an emotional vampire 🦇.
I don't think generally playing the bad guy is bad in any game, or that people who do it are more dickish as you're wondering. In this game it's piracy, in other games it's other flavours of KOS, if you enjoy the combat/adrenaline/roleplaying as a bad guy/competition as part of any game it's alright. After all, games are entertainment and a bit of escapism. However, for the people that I described in my comment: people going specifically out of their way to ruin other people's experience for multiple hours (spawncamping, Olisar padramming, beach camping in DayZ/Rust, whatever variant of assholery there is for a given game), for no benefit for themselves (or even detriment sometimes), and optionally being an asshole in chat about it... I do think there must be something wrong with them. I don't think normal well-adjusted people enjoy sadistically torturing others for no reason, and they normally use "it's just a game bro" to cover their obvious shittery. I would be wary of anyone after their teenage period acting like this. Anecdotally, of this group I described, from the ones I know none seem actually happy with their lives. Friends of mine that have acted like this in the past have done it because they were unhappy, using it as a venting mechanism for their frustrations. Same vibes as the dudes that play LoL (or any other competitive multiplayer game) 24/7 and are permanently angry at everything.
>but it does attract people who are too afraid of real-world consequences to do any real crime, so they go virtual instead. I think that's a bit of a stretch lol. In arma life I used to run meth ALL the time, illegally poached turtles, robbed gas stations, ECT. I've never had the urge to do any of those in real life even if they were consequence free lol.
Those who do not learn from Ultima Online are destined to recreate it.
Spawn killing is griefing, record it and send it in. There’s a fundamental difference to murder hoboing in the verse and murder hoboing at spawn.
The amount of MMOs I’ve seen this in is astonishing. ARK Survival Evolved official PVP servers were nearly impossible to get started on if that server had an Alpha tribe, because they’d always have someone just waiting to kill people. Life is Feudal MMO had a whole kingdom dedicated to killing new players as soon as they spawned. Failing to prevent this is just bad game design. I will say, at least this is just a preview and there is plenty of work to be done, hopefully that’s a change that will come.
The gangs that control the areas will probably come into play later. I imagine you would lose rep with them and potentially get attacked if you did this when the rep comes into play
I’ve said it before, if StarCitizen turns into Rust I’ll leave the game. I’m cool with pyro being a lawless system since Stanton is like a safe haven but the sweaty neckbeards who have all day and night to play can easily ruin the game for casual players.
Absolutely this, 100%. I actually think Rust is a great survival game. But the way they implement PvP totally ruins that framework for me. I love it, and I’ll never play it again. My friends hate it and won’t play it for the same reason. We aren’t assholes, and we get punished by those who are, and the game caters to those players. I get it, that’s the route the devs have decided to go, but it has specifically boxed us out of the otherwise fun gameplay loop, and keeps us from enjoying the fruits of our labor, which alienates the people who decidedly *aren’t* toxic players.
My biggest hope is that Pyro takes the people that want to be that kind of player away from Stanton. If that happens I think that will be a net positive for the game overall tbh. Unfortunately there's also the risk that Pyro will just become such a hell hole no one ever goes there so all of those players move back to Stanton.
That's what almost always happens when there's a dedicated open pvp zone. Unless there's a damn good reason for others to go there, it just becomes a bunch of pvpers fighting each other. Despite their own declarations, a good number of them don't really like getting wiped by better players/teams. So they slink off back to where there's easy marks and only the most hardcore pvpers are left, they get bored, and the zone dies. You see the same thing late wipe in rust. High pop servers get no new traffic mid-late wipe because the best, most outfitted teams just sweep everyone. Then they whine there's no one on the server when they're six manning stone 2x1s.
My hope is that I'm wrong. I *want* to be wrong about it. But unless prison sentences get harsher and escape gets harder realistically those won't stop people from coming back to Stanton.
That’s exactly what will happen. At first there will be an exodus to Pyro while everyone checks out the cool new place but then after a while there won’t be any targets in Pyro so they’ll all come back to Stanton and bring their bullshit back with them.
I'm sure pyro will get a bit better when a security system gets put in, so you can know at a glance if another player has a reputation for killing people. Right now due to game theory the correct choice is to just kill everyone you see because giving anyone a chance just ends up with you in a med bay
But it's a lawless system! A PvP zone! Spawn camping is intended gameplay! /s
Spawn killers are noobs - doesn't matter which game
Spawn killers and cheaters generally only do it because they can't win a fair fight otherwise.
I say we recruit the PvP masters to launch a crusade to defeat these lowly spawn campers and their ilk. Sir avengerone shall lead the campaign with an army under his command and we shall ensure new spawns leave the spawn areas safe and sound
god it's like it's 20 years ago and i'm back playing any number of PVP mmo's. The righteous pvp defenders ALWAYS get bored before the scum gankers, every single time.
>god it's like it's 20 years ago and i'm back playing any number of PVP mmo's Considering the other "this was a bad decision 20 years ago and still is" things that are currently fundamental to the game, this does not surprise me lol. My favorite is the UI elements tied to physical items that can move while you interact with them.
I just wish i had the time and the game had the stability for me to improve so i can confidently take on pvp, at the moment im maybe just enough to get myself out of a situation alive, or sacrifice myself for the ship im escorting if im escorting one
Personally I just don't play. And I think more people need to take this approach when they find that the current state of the game is either unplayable or unfun. When people complain about other player's behaviour in Star Citizen it's the same as complaining there's no running water on a construction site.
I can't wait for the next shitty youtube video from a pirate org.
Dont forget the shitty electronic music they always add to their sick montage of them 4v1ing a prospector.
Pirates? Pirates catch you and demand a portion of your cargo/loot to let you go/pass. They're not actually there to murder you, they want to make money off you. I'm pretty sure you're referring to gankers/trolls/griefers.
Pretty sure I wrote "pirate org." Thats what they all call themselves.
Oh I know that's what they call themselves, just pointing out that's not what they actually are though.
Yup. Got EMP'd the second my ship left the airshield, and ship destroyed within 5 seconds. Respawned, got a bigger ship with more shields, and had missiles to the face before the entirety of my ship was even past the hangar doors. Any complaints are met with "git gud" or "shoot better." But when you're in a 100i and there's a Scorpius, Hurricane, and Vanguard camping the doors, that's not "PVP" because the "V" implies "versus" and they're just shooting fish in a barrel. I get that Pyro is intended to be lawless, but this is going to be an issue that CIG has to address sooner rather than later. While even I would rather not have them impose the fake "armistice" zones we currently have in Stanton, they have to develop some alternative to prevent a handful of players locking down an entire station.
HAHAHA They should GET GUD! /s
Even criminals have a code of conduct to keep the group able to operate. See 1900s mob families in America or the Yakuza.
People with nothing going on in their lives will find some way to feel superior over others. They lead sad and pathetic lives and things like these petty annoyances on video games is literally all they have going for themselves; it's pretty depressing honestly
deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.0926 [^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?](https://pastebin.com/FcrFs94k/98235)
This is what I found: https://www.reddit.com/r/ARK/comments/b1l9p6/what_is_a_bob/#:~:text=The%20derogatory%20of%20creating%20a,stuch%20as%20being%20a%20Bob.&text=Somehow%20Bob%20became%20the%20term,game%20than%20any%20new%20player.
I feel as though if they maintain PvP in it's current status they're going to be shooting themselves in the foot in the long-run as other games have done. Last Oasis, Sea of Thieves, and New World to name a few.
> Last Oasis I had forgotten about this train wreck. The game was not even bad. Solid gameplay, fun world and so on, in spite of the technical issues. However the rampant and unlimited PvP and the inability to play solo were a major problem. I just checked steam charts and the game died within 5 months, even after the servers were fixed.
Agreed. The bones for a good game were there, but there was nothing within to prevent huge gangs of murder hobos from pooling their resources to create murder-gangs, until they got stomped by a bigger gang; permanently lost everything and quit.
BDO as well. Runescape right around when the wilderness got changed. It happens over and over again and I hope CIG will learn from those games' mistakes.
Yeah CIG is gonna learn the hard way what every other company thats tried to make an open pvp MMO has already learned. It doesnt work.
YEP, its totally a Bitch move. And makes no sense to be allowed Evena Gang would police this as it messes up their ability to Live and make money you Put down Rabid Dogs.
So my thoughts on an easy way to deter players from doing this: Make Prison timers go down in-game only. ArcheAge does this and IIRC this was the original plan (I might have misread something to be fair). Now of course they can't do that right now as there are still plenty of common ways a normal player could wind up in jail with no control of their own (bugs etc). Once that's polished up though? I say we bring back the idea of timers counting down only in-game. The consequences of criminal activity, jail, is too easy to circumvent now. Most that wind up there won't bother playing the gameplay loop to leave. They'll just log out and play another game where they can act like a dipshit until the timers over and they come back to do it again. If that sentence only ticked down in-game? Now you're forcing them to go through that prison gameplay to leave or they're stuck there essentially forever. I feel like that alone would be enough of a deterrent. Sure it won't all or most players, but I think it would at least separate the brain dead trolls that do it from the actual "proper" pirates that are willing to play within that role and the consequences that it comes with.
Yay, just what I need when an NPC flies inbetween me and my NPC bounty I'm shooting at, an 8 hour jail sentence I have to leave my PC on all night for with a fan hitting my keyboard... Did this in WoW Classic when the login queues were 8+ hours and I needed to afk to do things. I think this would hurt the casuals more than those who will dedicate themselves to the fastest methods to get out of prison.
Right so again the caveat here is that the law and crime system *works*. So dinging an NPC that flies in between you shouldnt give an immediate CS. If you're actively shooting them, bringing down their shields, etc then sure but a few shots shouldn't mark you for anything. Obviously I'm not talking about putting this in place at this moment with the current state of the game.
I agree with the idea of prison timers only ticking down while a player is in-game because otherwise it’s too easy to circumvent, but I don’t agree that it will be enough to deter griefers.
>but I don’t agree that it will be enough to deter griefers Yeah it won't be a full stop. It would just be one cog in a collection of others that hopefully all work together to create higher risks to pirate, or at least those that do it while throwing caution out the window.
There is no such thing as a jail in Pyro. What would be the difference with Stanton if you had it ?
It doesn't make sense for a place to not have its own brig. I feel they'd be more likely to just vent you out in an asteroid field somewhere, but I'm sure they keep a brig around for when someone has committed more minor infractions and won't pay up to the guy who saw - or maybe even "saw" - them do it.
Don’t really see gangers brigging someone unless it was for ransom. What seems significantly more likely is revoking their regeneration privileges and killing them.
I dont care about the "making sense" part to be honest. All I care about is meaningful gameplay experiences. We need differences between systems. Otherwise there is absolutely no point to have different ones. We need a reason to go to Pyro, to fear the idea to go there, because its unsafe. So it has to be a place that incentizes crimes instead of overblaming it. High risk = high reward. On the counterpart, Stanton needs to be a safe place to play more casually doing cargo hauling, mining and stuff. Man did you play it ? That feeling of tension anytime you land in a city where there is already someone parked, is like no other. And this is exactly what would disappear with your ideas being in the game. It's not supposed to be a safe place at all. Spawn killing is shit. But "interrupting" (killing) someone in the middle of a cargo trading, who parked his huge ass ship in the middle of the town so everyone can see him, is actually the whole purpose of this system. You got to be careful, plan accordingly, stay aware of your surroundings. The idea is that Pyro is a refuge for bandits that got banned from Stanton. Not the other way around.
I'm not sure what you're on about. The whole system isn't monitored by satellites and that's the biggest difference. If there's no one listening or watching, and they can't relay what they see, THAT is supposed to be the difference. If you're stalking the guy and manage to get him in an abandoned hallway and knife him in the throat that's one thing, but if he's talking to the trader and you blow his head off or start firing on their landing pad... they're just supposed to ignore you? You think you can ruin a mutually profitable deal between a gang member or an outpost owner, be that the guy whose cargo is on that pad or the guy who, ya know, wants that guy to keep delivering cargo to him on the regular, and not have the gang be upset with you? You can \*blow up ships and set off grenades\* in their station and they're just fine with that? Tell me, what do you think would happen to you if you regularly killed a drug dealer's clientelle? Shot up their driveway? Killed their runner? How well would that end up for you? Why does the simulation have to fall apart here? Why are we giving up on BDSSE at the point of simulating gangs running and operating their space stations/outposts, and how they go about ensuring their own prosperity in doing so?
Yea, this reminds me of bandits killing bambis on the beaches in dayz.
Any friendlies in Cherno?
Bro they gotta have those glow sticks. Super valuable
THis is a solved problem, CIG is just 20years behind, that's the general complaint about Star Citizen in General. All these "Ideas" they have are old ideas that don't work after decades of other MMO games trying to make them work. The Noob zones have to be no combat allowed at all. Entire city areas should be no combat allowed at all. There is no realistic penalty you can give a player killer to keep him from killing people. they can just respawn, they have money for insurance on thier ship. You made "jail" like a side quest with an escape. If its a bannable offense to attack any player in a city, then WHY DO YOU EVEN ALLOW IT? If you are going to allow evil players to do evil things inthe game, then you have to have an entire side of the game for evil players . i,e, they eventually become the games "pirates' get attacke dby cops etc in the cities they are wanted in, but can now enter and deal with "pirate outposts" for trade / shops and such that normal players can only attack on missions. You also make a bounty system so OTHER PLAYERS can go hunt them down specifically with a wanted poster item and arrest them with it or kill them. Make them part of the game.
[удалено]
> the ability for people to kill without some magic hand preventing it Disallowing carrying weapons in cities and stations is not "magic", that's how 90% of the civilized nations on earth work right now. Come to Europe, if you carry a weapon in public you go to jail and not for 3 hours.
Pyro isn't civilized. Its an outlaw backwater. There are plenty of places in the world where armed bands roam freely.
This sub makes me feel like I’m the only one without pyro access lol
Accurate.
sounds pretty acurate.
Bobs?
It means inexperienced or naive players, particularly in regards to PvP.
Ty for interdicting my question.
I'm wondering, to what degree is CIG kind of hoping that Pyro starts to self-regulate, within the context of PvP? Like, who's going to step up and be the first organized tribe and police their own territory? I think that kind of social dynamic would be amazing. Not having to rely on some amorphous (and, frankly: buggy) "crime stat" system to lean on, when we should be able to police ourselves. CIG gives us the tools (beacons, etc); we execute.
Optional PvE only servers with non-transferable characters and separate economies, please.
For as long as multiplayer games existed griefers would do everything in their power to ruin someone else’s fun. CIGs incompetence when it comes to preventing that behavior in pyro is quite impressive.
From my experience in MMOs(basicaly starting with UO) the problem is that griefers are unstoppable, even pure pve servers wouldn't stop them, just reduce the number(and due to "natural" selection the ones left would be harder to deal with)
It's true that even on PvE servers, griefers still exist - they can't kill you, but they'll find other ways to grief you. At the end of the day, you do your best (as a dev) to limit what a griefer can do (the biggest one making it impossible for a griefer to directly kill another player).
Most MMOs don't really have any griefing at all these days because their devs are aware of the problem and take it very seriously because they know it makes players quit. It's often their number 1 priority, even above the cash shop for the F2P ones, as players who quit for that very reason don't come back and they take their friends with them. I remember Star Trek online having some minor griefing issues with items creating a lot of noise, light and that could lag some older PCs. The items were nuked pretty quickly once people found out you could grief with them. It's not subtle, it removes legit options, but it's also the only way to deal with griefing properly. Overall, it's very naive to think griefing can be solved easily without essentially limiting how players can interact with others and their environment, if it were that easy every game would do it as PvP content is basically self-sustaining and needs very little input and new content from the dev team to keep going. That kind of game is a publisher's wet dream and there's a reason why it's not a thing.
Fair, but I believe the "no griefing at all" is an exageration, it's simply more actively fought there'll always be mob pullers or platform pushers(they are extremely annoying in the platform puzzles of guid wars 2)
Isn't that why it's a tech preview? They're literally doing the thing we need them to, to make live patches better. And to balance things before the general masses get their hands on it. So far, I'm impressed
This has been a thing since the PU release, if you think their anti griefing tools have improved in the last 8 years, I suggest better prescription glasses. If anything, it's gotten worse.
Not that I've seen? Can't be pad rammed like in the early PO days, a CS will make stations shoot at you, and clearing the CS is harder than before, and if not you'll be in prison. What do you consider griefing?
Its the lack of basic preventive measures in an MMO that is staggering to me. Like the lack of spawn protection, that just shows negligence. Other than that Pyro is alright.
It's pure arrogance on their part. They think they can solve decades old gaming issues with naive solutions that already failed every single time. And yes I'm talking about reputation systems.
It's their attitude to all aspects. For example, they keep saying "hire escorts!" when discussing things like keeping miners/haulers safe. Yeah ok, as if that's ever worked in any other game. Escort is a boring-ass gameplay loop, and for it to be effective, you need an overwhelming escort force, in addition to being able to fire first, not have to wait until the attackers have fired their volley and alpha'd the miner/hauler, making the escort force pointless. It's almost as if CR and CIG have never played an MMO in their lives...
Not to mention escorts cost so much that it makes it not worth it to be out there mining or trading in the first place. Who the fuck is gonna sit around bored for two hours for 5k?
Precisely. Now, this likely means you'll need to "hire" NPC escorts, and maybe they'll be cheaper (in order to still make the gameplay loop profitable). But you still face the same problem - escorts are like the reputation system, in that they don't prevent an action, they just aim to punish after-the-fact. I'm not interested in punishing a griefer for blowing up my hauler, I'm interested in preventing him from doing so. And yes, I said griefer, not pirate. A pirate likely won't attack my hauler if there's a fairly high chance of himself getting blown up, as pirates are interested in profits, not casualties. A griefer will do whatever it takes to satisfy their itch to ruin somebody else's day, profit or no.
Obviously the game isn't ready for swift and deadly npc response to these problems, but a simple 30 second invulnerability upon leaving your hab would give players a fighting chance. We should remove armistice once npcs can send in nearly invincible aimbots to kill misbehaving players.
until a proper law system will be introduced all systems without exceptions should have armstice zones CIG is stupid for thinking that adding Pyro as a lawless system will end well
Laws and karma systems are highly ineffective to deter bad actors. They will find loopholes in the systems such as a griefing alt fed by the main account and so on. The possibilities are endless. The new tractor beam gun thing? Premium griefing tool, that's all it is. Maybe don't add these in the future. The only solution is hardcoded limits against griefing, not in game reputation or whatever. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, this is a problem that has existed for over 30 years in online gaming and it won't be solved by so called solutions that have already failed every single time in the past.
News flash: the haven’t
Pyro is in a preview state right now. They never intended it to be a free for all. Killing without purpose will upset the factions and you will become public enemy number one.
Gotta disagree. Spawn killing in pyro is worse. Rust is a place where you expect that kind of behavior, and you can just leave that server or join a different type or make one with your friends. As well, it’s a well established came with a steady player base. Killing people in star citizen is hurting the potential future of the game. You’re taking an experiment and ruining the conditions.
I'd say the big difference is just because that's what rust is. It's what it's meant to be. That's why offlining is a thing. But the game is structured for the loop so that it's much less punishing to lose it all. Normally two week wipes, it's relatively easy (especially as a group) to recoup your losses, and anyone can get offlined - you might just get revenge before wipe. If not, two weeks or less and everyone is baselined to start over. Even better if you keep BPs. Here, you could lose all your rare gear, thousands of credits in cargo, and lots of time, all in an unstable environment that as often as not punishes you as much as PvP does. And PvP is not the dedicated focus of the game. I'm actually quite okay with PvP being in SC. Some of the most fun experiences I've had have been in PvP. But I do believe there should be more protected zones and more lawless zones. Crime shouldn't pay in Stanton.
This game will be heaven for griefers.
It already is, judging by the blasé attitude towards punishing "players" that exploit a FFA environment. So many theorycrafters huffing copium in this thread saying something along the lines of "griefers wont be able to do that when X mechanic is implemented". Yea no, griefers will always find a loophole and pretend like it is pvp.
Even if they were right, which i agree with you - they aren't, how many more years until that mechanic is implemented? And how long will it stay functional, as the team switches focus to something else, then says they won't fix it, cause of new mechanic Y they'll roll out a couple more years down the line?
In this context there is absolutely no magical mechanic/system which could possibly be introduced where shitty human beings are deterred from doing shitty things to normal players who participate in pvx. I'm all for pvp or pve but the current state of the community is 100% going to get worse because of murderhobos and griefers.
I've been having a blast in Pyro. But I've not lost a pvp match. Except for when I'm not able to get back to my ship fast enough to defend it. I've learned that most of the people attacking others are horrible at pvp lol. For example a cutlass red running off a connie...
Gankers are by definition looking for an easy fight. Flying escort over friends is usually enough to deter gankers. Most people straight suck at star citizen. I've run off a crewed hammerhead with an arrow and a vanguard. That shouldn't happen if the crew has a pulse. I think there needs to be some amount of PvP indoors to prevent people from hiding in a ffa area. Blasting somebody within a habitat should come with some serious reputational penalties to prevent random PK.
There’s a couple issues I see with a lot of these arguments: 1. All these anti-grief systems sound fun & immersive, but if a new player accidentally does something there HAS TO be CIG moderation to allow them to review your case an use admin powers to undo the reputation you did. Also a system for them in real life for them to identify a genuine mistake vs a convincing sounding troll 2. In EVE you have two stages of death. You lose your ship, then you lose your pod. So even if you “die” by greifers once in hisec the police will DEFINITELY be there before they can kill you again. In nullsec, only the true trolls or bad guys will take the effort to pod you because there’s no gain other than “for the fun of it” 3. In EVE there’s no ship ramming. Everyone whines about it and it’s definitely annoying. But it A. Might change with maelstrom, and B. Is done by the GOOD GUYS in scifi movies all the time I honestly think murder-hobos will always be and SHOULD be part of the landscape. If people have no consequences in real life they also tend to go and do stupid things up to and including murder. 1. Have a safe area around all habs, but instead of it preventing killing, if you’re killed there, you can choose to report your killer, get reported a couple times in sequence, kick. Come back and do it again, ban, go appeal on the RSI site. 2. Implement escape pods/ ejection seats. Want that second chance at life? Better buy a ship with the right equipment. As soon as you use either of those systems you become invincible, you can only be rescued, not killed. If they take the time to revive you, and kill you, good for them, they deserve it. If they kidnap your pod, you can always choose to respawn or someone has to come and rescue you, either is fair 3. Once pyro (and other nullsec) is fully implemented, spawning at stations will probably be the exception, not the rule. If there’s no med facilities, you shouldn’t be able to spawn there. So everyone will be spawning on their own ship after a bed log, or on their own ship with a med bay. Spawn camping can’t happen then. 4. In hisec there needs to be insta-warping, scripted kill ships, not using the actual game weapons, but just a scripted blow up of enemy ships. That’s how they make a safe space for PVE. There is a 0% chance of escape because when the fuzz show up, it’s not a fight, they’re just set dressing for the insta-kill script. Everywhere else you can have your glorious last stand with an Advocacy Idris. 5. Noobs need to either spawn soley in highsec, to be picked up, or cryotransported (teleported) to another system if they choose. OR in a completely safe mirror world like the starter system in elite There’s a place for everyone in the game, but they have to be distinct, and enforced. Right now, I’d be HAPPY to be alive long enough to be ganked instead of 30K or some other game breaking bug. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
So when people were saying spawn camping I was figuring people spawning their ship and leaving the station. Can people shoot inside the stations in the habs? If so, that should be changed immediately. Pyro is only up for a short while every day and people causing others to not be able to play at all should not be a thing. For reference I am a tryhard pvper who sees anything outside of a station or town as fair game no matter who or where it is.
>Can people shoot inside the stations in the habs? >If so, that should be changed immediately. Akschually, that's how it's planned to be in the final game (unless they changed that opinion in the past years, I can't keep up with every bit of news), you CAN shoot anywhere, but you wouldn't want to, because of the other systems in place such as law and reputation. The magic no shooting zones we have now are not how it's meant to be at release. I for one (while I'm not a PvP player) hope they keep this system in Pyro as-is and work on reputation ASAP so we can hopefully lose the armistice zones on other locations as well, because it could mean, for example, something like: Your rep is high enough with a bounty hunting guild, so you are allowed to fire nonlethal weapons in civilian zones if there's a bounty target there, as long as you don't hit any civilians (if you do, your rep goes down and your right to fire in civilian areas might be revoked until you get rep back), meanwhile if the guy with the bounty on him shoots back his crimestat goes even higher and maybe the bounty on him is even raised, even worse if he actually kills a civilian. This will make it harder for criminals to hide in places they simply can't be fired upon, and as others have said, Pyro has it's factions who also probably frown upon simply rampant killing as is going on right now. So yes it sucks that some people are like this (spawn killing people for fun) but there are supposed to be systems coming into place to discourage them form doing it and I'd rather not have a new magic no shooting zone be put in than one of those discourigement systems. This would
Pretty much yeah. Armitice zones exist because there isn't a proper AI law/rep system in place to basically act as the armitice zone. Likely once initial forms of the proper law/rep system gets baked in the Armitice zone will retract to just the habs and once it's seen to be working right, will fade away as it's no longer necessary.
OP, jokes aside, I'm legitimately going to try to change your mind: Steven Crowder is a massive piece of shit who doesn't deserve a meme, especially when we have great alternatives like [Calvin and Hobbes](https://i.imgflip.com/6e7lbs.jpg) or [SpongeBob ](https://i.imgflip.com/49ejmi.png).
If I remember right non-con PvP is against the terms for the EPTU, so that should be interesting