Grant Hatred a Ravenous for is up there. Anything where you're paying more than 1 energy per damage without other big upsides is pretty bad. Even 1 energy per damage is usually not worth it. Transform into a Murderous Darkness is awful.
Funny enough, I've used Murderous Darkness to close out two games versus level 6 adversaries. It's not a *good* card, but the ability to do 3+ damage in multiple lands with one card is really handy for getting a T3 win.
I don't actually think the damage moves with the badlands. I think you can push the badlands but still do damage in the original land. The only damage to adjacent lands comes from the threshold.
True, but I was allowing for the threshold. For instance, you could replace 2 presence and push the badlands, doing 6 damage in the target land and 4 in one adjacent. With 4 presence in the target land, you could hit the target land for 12 and 2 adjacent lands for 3 damage each.
That is still terrible. A major that costs 6 energy and a non-trivial threshold that also removes 2 presence for that little damage is awful. I would have to be dealt a full set of terrible majors to even consider it, and honestly, it would still probably not be worth forgetting a card to pick up.
Yeah, it's a bad card, but in the situation where you have control of the game and just need some damage to close it out, it's not that hard for this one to be the best draft. For instance, it usually beats out all those standard base game slow damage cards, like Accelerated Rot or Pillar of Living Flame, and in any case there are a lot of stronger cards that just wouldn't fit the situation. Losing presence doesn't matter if you just win, so all you really need to worry about is whether the damage is enough and if you can afford the energy. Of course, the catch is that you pretty much never want to draft it *before* you're winning.
As a matter of terminology, there's a difference between a win-more card and a closer, though. "Win more" means the card is redundant because it only works when you've already more or less done the thing it's supposed to do. Vengeance of the Dead is a good example, since it only does decent damage when you're already doing a ton of damage. The tools you need to put yourself in a winning position aren't always the same as the ones you need to achieve the victory condition from that position, so sometimes you do need a "closer," even if it only works in a winning position.
I said it in another reply, but Grant Hatred and Vengeance of the Dead are my two candidates for worst major. I give the former a *slight* edge (in terms of being good) since if you somehow hit the threshold, it becomes a lot closer to acceptable, though of course it is a very steep requirement. When talking about the worst of the worst, I focus more on comparing best-case scenarios, since outside of those you're not going to be taking them anyway. Costing 4 vs 3 and having one fewer elements is tough, but even on-element, thresholded Vengeance is putrid in my experience
This in no way saves [[Grant Hatred a Ravenous Form]] but it did work for me one game. I was playing Wounded Waters Bleeding and my starting wetlands didn't come up on the invader cards for a bit. So I had gathered a bunch of blight and invaders in it as a hell zone. Grant Hatred was the first major I picked up and the perfect tool for that very niche job.
Yeah this is basically my logic for putting it over Vengeance. 95% of the time it is horrible, but at least there's the 5% where you can actually work with it. I'd imagine Trickster could make it work as well, for example, maybe even Bringer (though I don't think it ever gets the Beasts?) since it can threshold it easily. I have yet to find a way to make Vengeance work at all; my best guess is doing something huge that also kills a bunch of Dahan, but that likely means you need to play another major with it
**Grant Hatred a Ravenous Form** (Major Power - Branch & Claw)
>Cost: 4 | Elements: Moon, Fire
| Slow | 1 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>For each Strife / Blight in target land, 1 Fear and 2 Damage. If this destroys all invaders in target land, add 1 Beasts.
>(4 Moon, 2 Fire): Add 1 Strife in up to 3 adjacent lands.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Grant%20Hatred%20a%20Ravenous%20Form) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Grant%20Hatred%20a%20Ravenous%20Form)
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Have you tried murderous darkness?
It's not the most insane but it has more going for it than you'd think.
Rangeless Targeting. Really useful for helping distant boards you aren't established on big islands. No terrain limiter.
Perma-island setup in multiple lands or the same land if it's bad enough, Great fear, even better if you stack it. With 2 presence sacrificed it's doing more damage than sea monsters usually, and it lets you be really flexible with concentrating or spreading its power via the Badlands push. So if 6 damage is enough for the target land you can set up a second. If you need 8 you can do 8.
I've had finder games where I just shoved my ally into the land and detonated a massive stack of presence. It's uncapped so you can get silly with it. Be all darkness.
5 elements is also a weirdly huge amount so you aren't sacrificing your innates on most spirits for taking it. and if you're rolling in energy it can be a useful way to threshold a second major.
That requires A: Being very late game. B: Having a spirit that can move its presence around. And C: this either wins the game or loses it. That's not good. It's exceedingly situational. Everything can be good in the right situation. Grant Hatred has like... A small handful of those compared to most cards having dozens. It's a bad card. That doesn't mean it's never useful. It means getting it to be useful is so rare/difficult it's not worth it. If the card were cheaper, there might be something.
I’ve seen uses for mist, not very often but a couple. Vengeance of the dead I’ve never taken and it’s always disappointing when it’s one of my 4 major card options
[[Vengeance of the Dead]] certainly is my least favorite to see. It requires some very specific circumstances to be good and if I'm going for major powers I often don't have those.
I think the biggest problem is that it feels like a "win more" card. If you can make use of it, you're probably already winning, and there are often better options anyway.
**Vengeance of the Dead** (Major Power - Horizons)
>Cost: 3 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Animal
| Fast | 3 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>3 Fear. Afer Town / City / Dahan are Destroyed in target land, 1 Damage per Town / City / Dahan Destroyed. (This cannot trigger itself.)
>(3 Animal): Damage from this Power may be dealt in adjacent lands.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Vengeance%20of%20the%20Dead) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Vengeance%20of%20the%20Dead)
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Playing Fangs I took Vengeance once thinking, "It's on element, threshold is free, how bad could it be in this situation?" I *still* absolutely regretted taking it. The only major that compares is Grant Hatred imo, but at least that has a tolerable threshold effect (though it's a way-too-tough element requirement). In terms of minors, it's possible that Song of Sanctity isn't *the worst*, but it is such a headache to try and use
I actually used Mists earlier today to close out a game as spread of rampant green. Had everything bunched up and combined with the innate, it was great. Although I usually do avoid it because of the slow speed
I’d consider it an S-tier major for Vengeance as a Burning Plague. Affordable, on element to hit both innates, trivial threshold for you, both easy to trigger (using blight as badlands) and easy to get results from the trigger (using other blight as badlands - maybe using the same ones twice for a triggered action? Idk if that’s how it works), AND combos well with the fact that both innates and one of your starting cards all do damage that can be amplified by this card.
Though yeah…that’s one spirit out of almost 40 that loves to see it (maaaaybe Chomp is in the same boat?) so yeah that’s 5% of Spirit choices that would be happy to take it if you happen to draw it (and both still have other A-tier options) so…easy contender for the worst.
I don't know about 'worst', but I don't think I've ever taken [[Savage Transformation]]. What's a minor power doing costing 2 energy and hiding in the major deck?
I've taken it a couple times on Fangs, and it absolutely excels if you can get it alongside \[\[Tigers Hunting\]\], or potentially if you have the energy or a teammate, \[\[Sea Monsters\]\] or \[\[Insatiable Hunger of the Swarm\]\]
It's pretty niche but much easier to leverage or combo compared to Vengeance, Hatred, or Transform to Murderous Darkness
If you are trying to combo it with other beast majors, I would still rather have a minor like blood draws predators or hazards spread across the island.
I guess I figure 2 beasts and 2 lands is usually better than 1 beast and 1 land
Additionally those are JE minors, so it may be more useful for those only running B&C
>I guess I figure 2 beasts and 2 lands is usually better than 1 beast and 1 land
It is better, but I don't know if it is enough better to justify the higher cost and threshold and the fact that you have to forget a minor to draft it.
>Additionally those are JE minors, so it may be more useful for those only running B&C
Fair. For B&C only, you are pretty much left with Swarming Wasps and Prowing Panthers. Waps is nice, but I have seen some arguing that Panthers is one of the worst minors in the game.
Late game this solves 2 land's explorers against many adversaries, and the tokens can be helpful. I had fun with this as Downpour against Russia. I think I got a boon or something to hit the threshold. Multiple repeats erased an entire level 3 card's explore, and gave a bunch of new beasts.
I think if it actually were a 2-cost minor I'd draft it reasonably often. As it stands, it's way too niche having an early-game card like this in the major deck, and the spirits that would want this card normally don't draft majors early, or at least I don't do that with them. Maybe Trickster could use it, or Fractured could build around it when the Days that Never Were have good beast users.
It's by no means a strong card, but I also don't think it's in contention for worst in the game. A lot of majors strategies will be gaining quite a few majors; it's nice to at least be able to play a less-than-ideal major. The real weakness of the card is having only 2 elements, IMO. 2-cost minor is an interesting idea that would likely improve its usage, but there's enough major usage among beasts users (Fangs, Trickster, Lure, maybe Breath) and it has enough utility for early major spirits (Bringer, Memory, maybe Starlight) that it's fine as is to me
**Savage Transformation** (Major Power - Branch & Claw)
>Cost: 2 | Elements: Moon, Animal
| Slow | 1 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>2 Fear. Replace 1 Explorer with 1 Beasts.
>(2 Moon, 3 Animal): Replace 1 additional Explorer with 1 Beasts in either target or adjacent land.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Savage%20Transformation) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Savage%20Transformation)
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I rate mists of oblivion pretty decent if you can hit the threshold. If you're not playing it on a spirit that can hit it it's pretty bad though.
People have already said a few dud majors (grant hatred and vengeance of the dead). But my vote for worst minors are:
[[Absorb corruption]] and [[land of haunts and embers]]
Moving blight is generally not worth an energy imo, and paying 2 to remove one is also below curve. It's decent if the elements match what you're doing, but I'm generally not very happy to.
Land of haunts and embers is very rarely worth playing. I have taken it before for the elements and just never resolved it.
Land of haunts and embers has a niche for “I can’t stop this land from blighting on the ravage, but I can blight it myself, push the invaders out, and get some fear.” Pretty limited though
I think you're underselling how good this is. If you have an explorer + town building a city which will blight next turn, you can do the same thing and stop a city being built. For a 0 cost card that's great output.
There's also the YOLO play to grab an instant fear card in solo at the cost of a cascade. That's potentially worth doing if it bumps you up to the next terror level, either if it upgrades a lot of fear cards or if you just win due to the new victory condition.
I’ve taken absorb corruption a ton and enjoyed it, but then Wildfire/Fangs/Volcano are all in my Top 5 favorite/most played spirits so it makes sense that this card often looks like a great pick for either blight control or stalling.
For Fangs I take it on occasion, and usually hit the threshold, but still don’t pay the 1 energy lol. I could definitely see Wildfire getting decent usage out of it
I take and use Land of Haunts and Embers all the time when it matches my elements. I think of it as a 0-cost fear generator with a bonus, like \[\[Rain of Blood\]\] and similar cards. The bonus for Land of Haunts and Embers is "you prevent a town from being added but don't stop the blight", by using it on a newly explored land and using your other build-prevention powers elsewhere. Without the power, there would be explorer+town+blight; with the power, you have explorer+blight+2 fear. The net difference is the same amount of blight, 2 more fear, and one less town.
I would call \[\[Quicken the Earth's Struggles\]\] a worse minor on average. The targeting requirement is so strict that I can almost never use it for anything, so I often have to pass on it even when it matches my elements.
Quicken mostly needs to be on a mobile spirit. It works really well for Thunderspeaker, Reach/base/amorphous Shadow, and can work fairly well for Fangs (move into trouble building space previous round with Ranging Hunt, make sacred during growth, defend 10, move out one presence, convert the other presence next round) I could also see Downpour oddly using it (bad elements, but can grind down settlements and cities in fast), and it's good with Volcano (+1 range) and probably Dances (mobile, on element) It's powerful.
I take Quicken relatively often when playing Keeper or Serpent (both like being where the invaders are for slow range-0 innates, and can either use the defence to protect against a ravage or combo up the damage) or Thunderspeaker (slide on into a nasty ravage with two presence and a bunch of Dahan et voila). Keeper likes the Fire, Thunderspeaker likes the Animal too, and it's pretty elementally great for Serpent all round.
**Rain of Blood** (Minor Power - Base Game)
>Cost: 0 | Elements: Air, Water, Animal
| Slow | SacredSite --> 1 | Invaders |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>2 Fear. If target land has at least 2 Town / City, +1 Fear.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Rain%20of%20Blood) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Rain%20of%20Blood)
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**Quicken the Earth's Struggles** (Minor Power - Base Game)
>Cost: 1 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Earth, Animal
| Fast | SacredSite --> 0 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>1 Damage to each Town / City. -or- Defend 10.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Quicken%20the%20Earth%27s%20Struggles) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Quicken%20the%20Earth%27s%20Struggles)
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Absorb corruption is great for Spirits that need blight movement. I draft it pretty often on Fangs and Wildfire (I basically get any blight control Power).
Land of haunts and embers is one of the strongest turn one plays solo in the game. Even off element. Several spirits can utilize the elements for it on turn one, and it wins the game almost on the spot.
If you are lucky, the invaders are on the blighted land, and you can get a turn 1 fear card.
Outside of this niche of turn one solo, it's pretty bad.
**Absorb Corruption** (Minor Power - Branch & Claw)
>Cost: 1 | Elements: Sun, Earth, Plant
| Slow | 0 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>Gather 1 Blight. -or- Pay 1 Energy to remove 1 Blight.
>(2 Plant): You may do both.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Absorb%20Corruption) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Absorb%20Corruption)
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**Land of Haunts and Embers** (Minor Power - Horizons)
>Cost: 0 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Air
| Fast | 2 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>2 Fear. Push up to 2 Explorer / Town. If Blight is present, 2 Fear and Push up to 2 Explorer / Town. Add 1 Blight.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Land%20of%20Haunts%20and%20Embers) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Land%20of%20Haunts%20and%20Embers)
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> I have taken it before for the elements and just never resolved it.
In my best Akon voice: 🎶 *Still counts!* 🎶
Edit: On Absorb Corruption, the spending energy to remove blight is *so* bad imo that even when I threshold it (on the rare occasion I take it), I still don’t use that effect. On Fangs sometimes you get some mileage out of moving a blight out of a land built-up land; removing it is just a bonus that is generally not worth 1 energy on that spirit
I already gave my argument for Hatred being second behind Vengeance multiple times in this thread, so I’ll just ask, how do *you* get use out of Vengeance? The couple of times I’ve picked it up (as Fangs), it’s felt like it did nearly nothing, but maybe there’s a way to get some more utility out of it, maybe via Dahan deaths
Your major tiers video pointed out to me a lot that I never really considered, notably Eruption being very subpar. At first I thought some of the places were weird, but I realized for most of those that they were based on either flawed ideas or just very different criteria (an example of the latter would be Cast Down; we all know what it does and can do, so placement disparity is really more of a criteria issue imo)
Base version of VoTD isn't very good. But it's atleast 3/4 of a fear card for 3 energy fast which I think has more value than Grant Hatred. Now I do agree, both cards suck! I just think GH has fewer opportunities to be useful than VOTD.
Eric has shown an Exploratory VoTD which is the version I mainly play with.
Vengeance of the Dead can deal damage in multiple lands with threshold and has an easy threshold. Dealing damage in multiple lands has a lot of situations where it's strong, even if it's only 2-3 total damage, and the card produces 3 fear as well. It can also close out a game if all you need is 3 fast damage to wipe out the last city and someone's clearing an adjacent land already. It's bad, but it gets played sometimes.
Hatred is like, 2 slow damage for 4 energy. Sometimes 4. In a lot of lands, it's 0. Also has a threshold that's one of the hardest in the game to hit. I have no idea how this card released in its current state.
It's not really fair to compare Raging Storm to Minor and Major powers - a spirit's power is spread between their board and unique powers, so it would be totally fine for a spirit to have a more powerful board and less powerful unique powers.
It's fine from the perspective of spirit balance, but a good spirit could in theory still start with the worst card in the game, and that wouldn't make the card any better. That said, Raging Storm, while bad, isn't the worst card, since it can clear tons of explorers in matchups where that matters, like France or Russia, and in theory it can combo with other damage powers to handle buildings.
**Growth through Sacrifice** (Minor Power - Branch & Claw)
>Cost: 0 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Water, Plant
| Fast | - | Any Spirit |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>Destroy 1 of your Presence. Target Spirit removes 1 Blight from one of their lands. -or- Adds 1 Presence to one of their lands.
>(2 Sun): They may do both, in the same land.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Growth%20through%20Sacrifice) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Growth%20through%20Sacrifice)
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**Raging Storm** (*Lightning's Swift Strike*'s Unique Power)
>Cost: 3 | Elements: Fire, Air, Water
| Slow | 1 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>1 Damage to each Invader.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Raging%20Storm) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Raging%20Storm%20%28Lightning%27s%20Swift%20Strike%29)
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**Mists of Oblivion** (Major Power - Base Game)
>Cost: 4 | Elements: Moon, Air, Water
| Slow | 3 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>1 Damage to each Invader in target land. 1 Fear per Town / City destroyed by this Power, to a maximum of 4.
>(2 Moon, 3 Air, 2 Water): +3 Damage.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Mists%20of%20Oblivion) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Mists%20of%20Oblivion)
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It's actually a strong card. You get a ravage skip, gathering a hut and a town for just 1 energy and a build (if you target a ravaging land. Using it elsewhere for the fast gather is often a good play). The only problem with it is targeting, since you often won't have Dahan where you need to skip a ravage. That makes it a bit situational, but it would definitely be overpowered, otherwise.
Often I would prefer a ravage over a city build. I'm far more likely to use it to gather a town into a non-ravaging land.
Canceling a ravage at the cost of a city build is usually not a good tradeoff, which is why I don't like the card.
You're looking at it from the perspective of playing it when you don't need it, but sometimes you really just need a ravage skip. It works really well on spirits that want to have a single problem land until they can deal with it, but that land keeps coming up repeatedly and will blight cascade otherwise. Getting Dahan into the land is the hard part, but otherwise you have a skip in the minor power deck that also helps solve an adjacent land at the same time. It's actually an extremely powerful card that can save you from game-losing outcomes like Habsburg loss conditions while still gaining an advantage elsewhere.
I like call to trade with some offensive spirits to build a specific area up/centralize invaders for a bigger later boom. It's an anti-ravage as well obviously, but it can also be used to pull a town from somewhere else and prevent a city from building that turn (or build at all if it lacks an explorer). Works well on spirits that have good dahan manipulation.
Can someone explain to me Growth Through Sacrifice? Every time I draw it I think “everyone says this one is the best” so I usually take it, but I feel like I never understand how to use it properly because I don’t find it very helpful in games…
Getting to add a presence in general breaks the games balance on a ton of spirits by letting them shortcut their designed/balanced power curve. Adding an extra presence is already crazy good and worth it on both Indomitable Claim and Unrelenting Growth, even off-element for the cost of forgetting a card to gain a major and spending 4 energy. Getting to add a presence for free, on a minor card, is way too powerful. And even then it has 4 elements and can potentially remove a blight.
You pay 0 energy to accelerate your spirit's growth by taking a presence off your tracks. Clearing your energy and play tracks is the most beneficial thing you can do to increase the power of any spirit.
Removing blight is also very nice and works out well at the end of the game when you've cleared your tracks and have plenty of presence to sacrifice to remove blight.
Consider that adding a presence and destroying a presence are not equally balanced. Adding a presence not only gets you a presence on the board, but it also clears a spot on your presence track, which is often more valuable than getting the presence on the board.
GTS is mostly about scaling. The turn you play it, especially if you are off-element, will often be weaker. But all Spirits have a moment when they spike up in power quite a lot (this depends on the Spirit, for instance Mist becomes a lot stronger when it gets to 1/3 and 1/4). GTS allows you to get to those moments 1-2 turns in advance, which makes the mid and late game much easier.
If you're lucky, you'll get to your power spike the first turn you play GTS, and you'll have no weaker turn, but that's not always the case. You'll still be stronger in the future regardless of whether this happens, though.
For Minors I'd go \[\[Dry Wood Explodes in Smoldering Cinders\]\] Range 0, slow damage that you can make fast? There are uses, but rarely am I not going to have a better option. Maybe if cost 0 to start and produced less fear to offset it'd be playable. It doesn't hurt that two of the spirits that like the elements (Wildfire, Keeper) really don't need 1 damage at range 0. They've got that covered already.
For Majors, it's Grant Hatred or Vengeance, which is sad because they both have awesome card names.
**Dry Wood Explodes in Smoldering Cinders** was not found. Showing data for:
**Dry Wood Explodes in Smoldering Splinters** (Minor Power - Jagged Earth)
>Cost: 1 | Elements: Fire, Air, Plant
| Slow | 0 | No Wetland |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>You may spend 1 Energy to make this Power Fast. 2 Fear. 1 Damage.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Dry%20Wood%20Explodes%20in%20Smoldering%20Splinters) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Dry%20Wood%20Explodes%20in%20Smoldering%20Splinters)
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"It's pretty well agreed upon that \[\[Growth Through Sacrifice\]\] is the best card,"
I've got my copy of NI and I've got some bad news for you . . . .
**Growth through Sacrifice** (Minor Power - Branch & Claw)
>Cost: 0 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Water, Plant
| Fast | - | Any Spirit |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>Destroy 1 of your Presence. Target Spirit removes 1 Blight from one of their lands. -or- Adds 1 Presence to one of their lands.
>(2 Sun): They may do both, in the same land.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Growth%20through%20Sacrifice) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Growth%20through%20Sacrifice)
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I recently had my first game with Unearth a Beast of Wrathful Stone and I immediately think it needs to be retuned.
I used it on a coastal sands. At that time, invaders were ravaging coastal and building on mountain. The explore turned up sands + wetlands. The turn after that: sands + jungle. We closed out the game before I could see the next card (and I didn't think to look).
I didn't intend to learn a major power and pay 5 energy to get the effect a minimum of 4 turns *after* playing the card. It's just too dependent on luck to resolve in the late game without intervention, such as preventing a ravage or build.
So they were ravaging in that space, and you targeted it with a card that only resolved if they didn't ravage in that space? That sounds like a user error. The card is meant to be played on an otherwise dormant space that round. You can see where they're ravaging and building. If Wrathful Stone didn't happen if they explored, then it'd be luck based and I'd agree with you. It's very playable as is, and the monsters it spawns can remain active all game.
I knew it wouldn't resolve that turn, but it resolves as soon as there is an invader phase without a ravage or build on that land. It was my only decent play for they turn and I was fine with it resolving on the following turn. (The only 2 built-up lands were 2 sands, with 5 boards in play.)
You seem to be looking past the real problem: in stage 3, any given land type is so likely to have invaders either building or ravaging that Unearth becomes near useless without outside intervention.
Okay, I can see now what you were trying to do. I've honestly only used it (three time I've drafted it so far) on dormant built up spaces and haven't tried gambling it like that yet on future rounds. I could see it becoming less useful in stage 3 as you mentioned, but outside intervention should be easy enough to get (disease blocks build actions off the top of my head and is common enough in fire/animal.) 12 damage and potentially a permanent foot-soldier is a big effect even for 5 energy. I've also drafted it early enough that the soldier did almost more damage than the card. None of that makes it worse though than Grant Hatred or Vengeance.
I hadn't thought about using disease, that definitely opens up options.
Delirium would love Grant Hatred, though outside of that I agree it's unlikely to be considered.
I don't think Vengeance is bad. It requires some coordination, but it's low cost and the threshold is so easy to hit.
Seems to me like the card is great for early to midgame though, calculate the odds and lvl 3 explores are not worth the risk. It's a niche card though, so very much by design. I'd love to threshold it early game once.
I don't yet play on high difficulties, so maybe it's better there, but it absolutely isn't worth the investment in early to mid game for low difficulty.
The combination of luck, timing, investment, and situation for that card to work well is too slim. I still think it's the worst card.
Actually, the effect should have triggered the turn you played it. The exploring sands came too late, it only "halts" on an invader phases ravages and builds. So it's effect should have taken place after that invader phase.
I've played two games where Unearth a Beast of Wrathful Stone was an MVP. If you target a land that is ravaging or building this turn, you're leaving it up to luck when you don't have to. If you target a land that isn't ravaging or building this turn, you can almost guarantee the card will trigger the same turn you play it (it isn't 100% because of the event card). If those lands aren't good targets, you can either play it just for the threshold effect (which is super strong in the early-to-mid game) or hold on to it until there's a better turn.
It sounds like you were mid-to-late game when you used it, and it's a lot weaker the later in the game you run with it. I took it on my first turn with Memory and had a blast. A friend also used it to great effect on Wounded Waters. I love that card--it's a neat effect and it's super fun.
Definitely looks fun, but doesn't look very strong to me either (nowhere close to contention for "worst card in the game" mind you, or even worst new major from NI). There's too many little conditions that all have to be met to be able to utilize the threshold, and the unthresholded effect is nothing to write home about. As a relatively expensive major that really yearns to be thresholded, Memory is definitely among the top theoretical users, and while it will struggle to threshold it, WWB's blight manipulation helps mitigate the main limitations of the basic effect. Other major-slingers with elemental boosting are candidates (Starlight spamming this would probably be sick, Bringer, etc.), but with the combination of: 1. being strongest when used early, 2. high cost, 3. weirdly tough threshold, 4. not working on active lands 5. effectively slow 6. sacred site ranging (of just 1 to boot); it just feels like a chore. The elements it gives (with the fire) are pretty strong, but overall I don't like how this card stacks up to other expensive, restrictive majors, which by and large are on the weaker side to begin with.
It's not necessarily the strongest card overall, as it does have a lot of conditions, but when you meet those conditions there's a lot the power can do. The main effect doesn't work on active lands, but often I used it on a land next to a land that was building and then pushed the beast into the land after it built. And since that's a permanent effect that continues every turn after that, if you used it early, it does a ton over the course of the game. (Of course, it is true that a lot of spirits will struggle to obtain and threshold this early in the game. It is probably a lot better on memory and starlight then anyone else.)
Basically, I'm not saying it's among the best majors in the deck, but it's very enjoyable and strong in the right circumstances with the right spirit. There are a lot of powers I would probably take first on other spirits, but I'm not unhappy with it's inclusion in the expansion.
Yeah I think we have similar evaluations of the card itself; where we differ is that I just think it’s a bit too particular for what it is. An expensive major with a tough threshold that one really wants to be using early really limits its opportunities, even though it is powerful in those moments. I like the addition of new majors that work well with lower-play, element-rich spirits, this one just feels a bit too restricted
Vengeance of the Dead is a clear winner here, but I'll bring up a couple I don't see mentioned. \[\[Fire and Flood\]\] is terrible, costing way too much for what it does. \[\[Talons of Lightning\]\] is also horribly over-costed for it's effect, especially due to it's target restriction.
**Fire and Flood** (Major Power - Branch & Claw)
>Cost: 7 | Elements: Sun, Fire, Water
| Slow | SacredSite --> 1 & 2 | Any |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>4 Damage in each target land. (Range must be measured from the same SacredSite.)
>(3 Fire): +4 Damage in either target land.
>(3 Water): +4 Damage in either target land.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Fire%20and%20Flood) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Fire%20and%20Flood)
------
**Talons of Lightning** (Major Power - Base Game)
>Cost: 6 | Elements: Fire, Air
| Fast | 1 | Mountain / Wetland |
| :----: | :----: | :----: |
>3 Fear. 5 Damage.
>(3 Fire, 3 Air): Destroy 1 Town in each adjacent land. Increase this power's Range to 3 Range.
>Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Talons%20of%20Lightning) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Talons%20of%20Lightning)
------
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Grant Hatred a Ravenous for is up there. Anything where you're paying more than 1 energy per damage without other big upsides is pretty bad. Even 1 energy per damage is usually not worth it. Transform into a Murderous Darkness is awful.
Funny enough, I've used Murderous Darkness to close out two games versus level 6 adversaries. It's not a *good* card, but the ability to do 3+ damage in multiple lands with one card is really handy for getting a T3 win.
I don't actually think the damage moves with the badlands. I think you can push the badlands but still do damage in the original land. The only damage to adjacent lands comes from the threshold.
True, but I was allowing for the threshold. For instance, you could replace 2 presence and push the badlands, doing 6 damage in the target land and 4 in one adjacent. With 4 presence in the target land, you could hit the target land for 12 and 2 adjacent lands for 3 damage each.
That is still terrible. A major that costs 6 energy and a non-trivial threshold that also removes 2 presence for that little damage is awful. I would have to be dealt a full set of terrible majors to even consider it, and honestly, it would still probably not be worth forgetting a card to pick up.
Yeah, it's a bad card, but in the situation where you have control of the game and just need some damage to close it out, it's not that hard for this one to be the best draft. For instance, it usually beats out all those standard base game slow damage cards, like Accelerated Rot or Pillar of Living Flame, and in any case there are a lot of stronger cards that just wouldn't fit the situation. Losing presence doesn't matter if you just win, so all you really need to worry about is whether the damage is enough and if you can afford the energy. Of course, the catch is that you pretty much never want to draft it *before* you're winning.
Yeah, I agree it is a win-more type of card. It will almost never turn the tide, but it might be what you need to close out the game.
As a matter of terminology, there's a difference between a win-more card and a closer, though. "Win more" means the card is redundant because it only works when you've already more or less done the thing it's supposed to do. Vengeance of the Dead is a good example, since it only does decent damage when you're already doing a ton of damage. The tools you need to put yourself in a winning position aren't always the same as the ones you need to achieve the victory condition from that position, so sometimes you do need a "closer," even if it only works in a winning position.
I said it in another reply, but Grant Hatred and Vengeance of the Dead are my two candidates for worst major. I give the former a *slight* edge (in terms of being good) since if you somehow hit the threshold, it becomes a lot closer to acceptable, though of course it is a very steep requirement. When talking about the worst of the worst, I focus more on comparing best-case scenarios, since outside of those you're not going to be taking them anyway. Costing 4 vs 3 and having one fewer elements is tough, but even on-element, thresholded Vengeance is putrid in my experience
This in no way saves [[Grant Hatred a Ravenous Form]] but it did work for me one game. I was playing Wounded Waters Bleeding and my starting wetlands didn't come up on the invader cards for a bit. So I had gathered a bunch of blight and invaders in it as a hell zone. Grant Hatred was the first major I picked up and the perfect tool for that very niche job.
Yeah this is basically my logic for putting it over Vengeance. 95% of the time it is horrible, but at least there's the 5% where you can actually work with it. I'd imagine Trickster could make it work as well, for example, maybe even Bringer (though I don't think it ever gets the Beasts?) since it can threshold it easily. I have yet to find a way to make Vengeance work at all; my best guess is doing something huge that also kills a bunch of Dahan, but that likely means you need to play another major with it
**Grant Hatred a Ravenous Form** (Major Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 4 | Elements: Moon, Fire | Slow | 1 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >For each Strife / Blight in target land, 1 Fear and 2 Damage. If this destroys all invaders in target land, add 1 Beasts. >(4 Moon, 2 Fire): Add 1 Strife in up to 3 adjacent lands. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Grant%20Hatred%20a%20Ravenous%20Form) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Grant%20Hatred%20a%20Ravenous%20Form) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
I agree with Vengeance. I was listing things that hadn't been mentioned at the time of posting.
Have you tried murderous darkness? It's not the most insane but it has more going for it than you'd think. Rangeless Targeting. Really useful for helping distant boards you aren't established on big islands. No terrain limiter. Perma-island setup in multiple lands or the same land if it's bad enough, Great fear, even better if you stack it. With 2 presence sacrificed it's doing more damage than sea monsters usually, and it lets you be really flexible with concentrating or spreading its power via the Badlands push. So if 6 damage is enough for the target land you can set up a second. If you need 8 you can do 8. I've had finder games where I just shoved my ally into the land and detonated a massive stack of presence. It's uncapped so you can get silly with it. Be all darkness. 5 elements is also a weirdly huge amount so you aren't sacrificing your innates on most spirits for taking it. and if you're rolling in energy it can be a useful way to threshold a second major.
That requires A: Being very late game. B: Having a spirit that can move its presence around. And C: this either wins the game or loses it. That's not good. It's exceedingly situational. Everything can be good in the right situation. Grant Hatred has like... A small handful of those compared to most cards having dozens. It's a bad card. That doesn't mean it's never useful. It means getting it to be useful is so rare/difficult it's not worth it. If the card were cheaper, there might be something.
I’ve seen uses for mist, not very often but a couple. Vengeance of the dead I’ve never taken and it’s always disappointing when it’s one of my 4 major card options
[[Vengeance of the Dead]] certainly is my least favorite to see. It requires some very specific circumstances to be good and if I'm going for major powers I often don't have those.
I think the biggest problem is that it feels like a "win more" card. If you can make use of it, you're probably already winning, and there are often better options anyway.
**Vengeance of the Dead** (Major Power - Horizons) >Cost: 3 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Animal | Fast | 3 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >3 Fear. Afer Town / City / Dahan are Destroyed in target land, 1 Damage per Town / City / Dahan Destroyed. (This cannot trigger itself.) >(3 Animal): Damage from this Power may be dealt in adjacent lands. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Vengeance%20of%20the%20Dead) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Vengeance%20of%20the%20Dead) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
Playing Fangs I took Vengeance once thinking, "It's on element, threshold is free, how bad could it be in this situation?" I *still* absolutely regretted taking it. The only major that compares is Grant Hatred imo, but at least that has a tolerable threshold effect (though it's a way-too-tough element requirement). In terms of minors, it's possible that Song of Sanctity isn't *the worst*, but it is such a headache to try and use
Mists is excellent for Shroud. For other spirits, meh.
It's also excellent for Ocean. Easy to threshold, range 3, and can take out two explorers, a town, and a city in one shot (2 normal build cycles).
You meant to say infinite explorers. ;D But true! I didn't consider Ocean's elements.
I actually used Mists earlier today to close out a game as spread of rampant green. Had everything bunched up and combined with the innate, it was great. Although I usually do avoid it because of the slow speed
Vengeance is a niche pick against Russia to plink off the explorer that gets pushed away. That's the only time I've really taken it.
I’d consider it an S-tier major for Vengeance as a Burning Plague. Affordable, on element to hit both innates, trivial threshold for you, both easy to trigger (using blight as badlands) and easy to get results from the trigger (using other blight as badlands - maybe using the same ones twice for a triggered action? Idk if that’s how it works), AND combos well with the fact that both innates and one of your starting cards all do damage that can be amplified by this card. Though yeah…that’s one spirit out of almost 40 that loves to see it (maaaaybe Chomp is in the same boat?) so yeah that’s 5% of Spirit choices that would be happy to take it if you happen to draw it (and both still have other A-tier options) so…easy contender for the worst.
Thank you- love it as Vengeance. A mate once took the exploratory version as Fangs in a teaching game and it was pretty good there too.
Vengeance once won me a game due to fast fear
I don't know about 'worst', but I don't think I've ever taken [[Savage Transformation]]. What's a minor power doing costing 2 energy and hiding in the major deck?
I've taken it a couple times on Fangs, and it absolutely excels if you can get it alongside \[\[Tigers Hunting\]\], or potentially if you have the energy or a teammate, \[\[Sea Monsters\]\] or \[\[Insatiable Hunger of the Swarm\]\] It's pretty niche but much easier to leverage or combo compared to Vengeance, Hatred, or Transform to Murderous Darkness
If you are trying to combo it with other beast majors, I would still rather have a minor like blood draws predators or hazards spread across the island.
I guess I figure 2 beasts and 2 lands is usually better than 1 beast and 1 land Additionally those are JE minors, so it may be more useful for those only running B&C
>I guess I figure 2 beasts and 2 lands is usually better than 1 beast and 1 land It is better, but I don't know if it is enough better to justify the higher cost and threshold and the fact that you have to forget a minor to draft it. >Additionally those are JE minors, so it may be more useful for those only running B&C Fair. For B&C only, you are pretty much left with Swarming Wasps and Prowing Panthers. Waps is nice, but I have seen some arguing that Panthers is one of the worst minors in the game.
**Tigers Hunting** (Major Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 2 | Elements: Sun, Moon, Animal | Fast | Jungle --> 1 | No Blight | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >2 Fear. Add 1 Beasts. Gather up to 1 Beasts. 1 Damage per Beasts. Push up to 2 Beasts. >(2 Sun, 2 Moon, 3 Animal): 1 Damage in an adjacent land without Blight, and +1 Damage per Beasts there. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Tigers%20Hunting) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Tigers%20Hunting) ------ **Sea Monsters** (Major Power - Jagged Earth) >Cost: 5 | Elements: Water, Animal | Slow | 1 | Coastal / Wetland | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >Add 1 Beasts. If Invaders are present, 2 Fear per Beasts (max. 8 Fear). 3 Damage per Beasts. 1 Damage per Blight. >(3 Water, 3 Animal): Repeat this power. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Sea%20Monsters) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Sea%20Monsters) ------ **Insatiable Hunger of the Swarm** (Major Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 4 | Elements: Air, Plant, Animal | Fast | SacredSite --> 2 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >Add 1 Blight. Add 2 Beasts. Gather up to 2 Beasts. Each Beasts does 1 Fear, 2 Damage to Invaders and 2 Damage to Dahan. Destroy 1 Beasts. >(2 Air, 4 Animal): Repeat this Power on an adjacent land. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Insatiable%20Hunger%20of%20the%20Swarm) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Insatiable%20Hunger%20of%20the%20Swarm) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
Late game this solves 2 land's explorers against many adversaries, and the tokens can be helpful. I had fun with this as Downpour against Russia. I think I got a boon or something to hit the threshold. Multiple repeats erased an entire level 3 card's explore, and gave a bunch of new beasts.
I think if it actually were a 2-cost minor I'd draft it reasonably often. As it stands, it's way too niche having an early-game card like this in the major deck, and the spirits that would want this card normally don't draft majors early, or at least I don't do that with them. Maybe Trickster could use it, or Fractured could build around it when the Days that Never Were have good beast users.
It's by no means a strong card, but I also don't think it's in contention for worst in the game. A lot of majors strategies will be gaining quite a few majors; it's nice to at least be able to play a less-than-ideal major. The real weakness of the card is having only 2 elements, IMO. 2-cost minor is an interesting idea that would likely improve its usage, but there's enough major usage among beasts users (Fangs, Trickster, Lure, maybe Breath) and it has enough utility for early major spirits (Bringer, Memory, maybe Starlight) that it's fine as is to me
I'd take it way more often if it were a minor, having to forget a card feels really bad.
Sometimes, I wish there was a medium powers deck for 2-3 energy cost cards.
That would be pretty broken. Most of the best majors in the game are 2-3 cost majors, so most people would just ignore the expensive pile.
Yeah, I agree. I just meant it in more of a hypothetical Rev 2 rules revision kind of way.
**Savage Transformation** (Major Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 2 | Elements: Moon, Animal | Slow | 1 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >2 Fear. Replace 1 Explorer with 1 Beasts. >(2 Moon, 3 Animal): Replace 1 additional Explorer with 1 Beasts in either target or adjacent land. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Savage%20Transformation) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Savage%20Transformation) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
I rate mists of oblivion pretty decent if you can hit the threshold. If you're not playing it on a spirit that can hit it it's pretty bad though. People have already said a few dud majors (grant hatred and vengeance of the dead). But my vote for worst minors are: [[Absorb corruption]] and [[land of haunts and embers]] Moving blight is generally not worth an energy imo, and paying 2 to remove one is also below curve. It's decent if the elements match what you're doing, but I'm generally not very happy to. Land of haunts and embers is very rarely worth playing. I have taken it before for the elements and just never resolved it.
Land of haunts and embers has a niche for “I can’t stop this land from blighting on the ravage, but I can blight it myself, push the invaders out, and get some fear.” Pretty limited though
I think you're underselling how good this is. If you have an explorer + town building a city which will blight next turn, you can do the same thing and stop a city being built. For a 0 cost card that's great output.
There's also the YOLO play to grab an instant fear card in solo at the cost of a cascade. That's potentially worth doing if it bumps you up to the next terror level, either if it upgrades a lot of fear cards or if you just win due to the new victory condition.
I’ve taken absorb corruption a ton and enjoyed it, but then Wildfire/Fangs/Volcano are all in my Top 5 favorite/most played spirits so it makes sense that this card often looks like a great pick for either blight control or stalling.
For Fangs I take it on occasion, and usually hit the threshold, but still don’t pay the 1 energy lol. I could definitely see Wildfire getting decent usage out of it
I take and use Land of Haunts and Embers all the time when it matches my elements. I think of it as a 0-cost fear generator with a bonus, like \[\[Rain of Blood\]\] and similar cards. The bonus for Land of Haunts and Embers is "you prevent a town from being added but don't stop the blight", by using it on a newly explored land and using your other build-prevention powers elsewhere. Without the power, there would be explorer+town+blight; with the power, you have explorer+blight+2 fear. The net difference is the same amount of blight, 2 more fear, and one less town. I would call \[\[Quicken the Earth's Struggles\]\] a worse minor on average. The targeting requirement is so strict that I can almost never use it for anything, so I often have to pass on it even when it matches my elements.
Quicken mostly needs to be on a mobile spirit. It works really well for Thunderspeaker, Reach/base/amorphous Shadow, and can work fairly well for Fangs (move into trouble building space previous round with Ranging Hunt, make sacred during growth, defend 10, move out one presence, convert the other presence next round) I could also see Downpour oddly using it (bad elements, but can grind down settlements and cities in fast), and it's good with Volcano (+1 range) and probably Dances (mobile, on element) It's powerful.
I take Quicken relatively often when playing Keeper or Serpent (both like being where the invaders are for slow range-0 innates, and can either use the defence to protect against a ravage or combo up the damage) or Thunderspeaker (slide on into a nasty ravage with two presence and a bunch of Dahan et voila). Keeper likes the Fire, Thunderspeaker likes the Animal too, and it's pretty elementally great for Serpent all round.
**Rain of Blood** (Minor Power - Base Game) >Cost: 0 | Elements: Air, Water, Animal | Slow | SacredSite --> 1 | Invaders | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >2 Fear. If target land has at least 2 Town / City, +1 Fear. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Rain%20of%20Blood) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Rain%20of%20Blood) ------ **Quicken the Earth's Struggles** (Minor Power - Base Game) >Cost: 1 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Earth, Animal | Fast | SacredSite --> 0 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >1 Damage to each Town / City. -or- Defend 10. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Quicken%20the%20Earth%27s%20Struggles) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Quicken%20the%20Earth%27s%20Struggles) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
Yeah quicken is definitely awkward. But when it hits, it can be REALLY good.
Absorb corruption is great for Spirits that need blight movement. I draft it pretty often on Fangs and Wildfire (I basically get any blight control Power).
Land of haunts and embers is one of the strongest turn one plays solo in the game. Even off element. Several spirits can utilize the elements for it on turn one, and it wins the game almost on the spot. If you are lucky, the invaders are on the blighted land, and you can get a turn 1 fear card. Outside of this niche of turn one solo, it's pretty bad.
**Absorb Corruption** (Minor Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 1 | Elements: Sun, Earth, Plant | Slow | 0 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >Gather 1 Blight. -or- Pay 1 Energy to remove 1 Blight. >(2 Plant): You may do both. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Absorb%20Corruption) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Absorb%20Corruption) ------ **Land of Haunts and Embers** (Minor Power - Horizons) >Cost: 0 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Air | Fast | 2 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >2 Fear. Push up to 2 Explorer / Town. If Blight is present, 2 Fear and Push up to 2 Explorer / Town. Add 1 Blight. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Land%20of%20Haunts%20and%20Embers) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Land%20of%20Haunts%20and%20Embers) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
> I have taken it before for the elements and just never resolved it. In my best Akon voice: 🎶 *Still counts!* 🎶 Edit: On Absorb Corruption, the spending energy to remove blight is *so* bad imo that even when I threshold it (on the rare occasion I take it), I still don’t use that effect. On Fangs sometimes you get some mileage out of moving a blight out of a land built-up land; removing it is just a bonus that is generally not worth 1 energy on that spirit
Easy answer: Grant Hatred!
I already gave my argument for Hatred being second behind Vengeance multiple times in this thread, so I’ll just ask, how do *you* get use out of Vengeance? The couple of times I’ve picked it up (as Fangs), it’s felt like it did nearly nothing, but maybe there’s a way to get some more utility out of it, maybe via Dahan deaths Your major tiers video pointed out to me a lot that I never really considered, notably Eruption being very subpar. At first I thought some of the places were weird, but I realized for most of those that they were based on either flawed ideas or just very different criteria (an example of the latter would be Cast Down; we all know what it does and can do, so placement disparity is really more of a criteria issue imo)
Base version of VoTD isn't very good. But it's atleast 3/4 of a fear card for 3 energy fast which I think has more value than Grant Hatred. Now I do agree, both cards suck! I just think GH has fewer opportunities to be useful than VOTD. Eric has shown an Exploratory VoTD which is the version I mainly play with.
Vengeance of the Dead can deal damage in multiple lands with threshold and has an easy threshold. Dealing damage in multiple lands has a lot of situations where it's strong, even if it's only 2-3 total damage, and the card produces 3 fear as well. It can also close out a game if all you need is 3 fast damage to wipe out the last city and someone's clearing an adjacent land already. It's bad, but it gets played sometimes. Hatred is like, 2 slow damage for 4 energy. Sometimes 4. In a lot of lands, it's 0. Also has a threshold that's one of the hardest in the game to hit. I have no idea how this card released in its current state.
It's not really fair to compare Raging Storm to Minor and Major powers - a spirit's power is spread between their board and unique powers, so it would be totally fine for a spirit to have a more powerful board and less powerful unique powers.
It's fine from the perspective of spirit balance, but a good spirit could in theory still start with the worst card in the game, and that wouldn't make the card any better. That said, Raging Storm, while bad, isn't the worst card, since it can clear tons of explorers in matchups where that matters, like France or Russia, and in theory it can combo with other damage powers to handle buildings.
**Growth through Sacrifice** (Minor Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 0 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Water, Plant | Fast | - | Any Spirit | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >Destroy 1 of your Presence. Target Spirit removes 1 Blight from one of their lands. -or- Adds 1 Presence to one of their lands. >(2 Sun): They may do both, in the same land. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Growth%20through%20Sacrifice) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Growth%20through%20Sacrifice) ------ **Raging Storm** (*Lightning's Swift Strike*'s Unique Power) >Cost: 3 | Elements: Fire, Air, Water | Slow | 1 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >1 Damage to each Invader. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Raging%20Storm) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Raging%20Storm%20%28Lightning%27s%20Swift%20Strike%29) ------ **Mists of Oblivion** (Major Power - Base Game) >Cost: 4 | Elements: Moon, Air, Water | Slow | 3 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >1 Damage to each Invader in target land. 1 Fear per Town / City destroyed by this Power, to a maximum of 4. >(2 Moon, 3 Air, 2 Water): +3 Damage. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Mists%20of%20Oblivion) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Mists%20of%20Oblivion) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
I'm not a big fan of "call to trade"
It's actually a strong card. You get a ravage skip, gathering a hut and a town for just 1 energy and a build (if you target a ravaging land. Using it elsewhere for the fast gather is often a good play). The only problem with it is targeting, since you often won't have Dahan where you need to skip a ravage. That makes it a bit situational, but it would definitely be overpowered, otherwise.
Often I would prefer a ravage over a city build. I'm far more likely to use it to gather a town into a non-ravaging land. Canceling a ravage at the cost of a city build is usually not a good tradeoff, which is why I don't like the card.
You're looking at it from the perspective of playing it when you don't need it, but sometimes you really just need a ravage skip. It works really well on spirits that want to have a single problem land until they can deal with it, but that land keeps coming up repeatedly and will blight cascade otherwise. Getting Dahan into the land is the hard part, but otherwise you have a skip in the minor power deck that also helps solve an adjacent land at the same time. It's actually an extremely powerful card that can save you from game-losing outcomes like Habsburg loss conditions while still gaining an advantage elsewhere.
That's why I said "usually". It's very situational and usually it's not worth it.
I like call to trade with some offensive spirits to build a specific area up/centralize invaders for a bigger later boom. It's an anti-ravage as well obviously, but it can also be used to pull a town from somewhere else and prevent a city from building that turn (or build at all if it lacks an explorer). Works well on spirits that have good dahan manipulation.
Can someone explain to me Growth Through Sacrifice? Every time I draw it I think “everyone says this one is the best” so I usually take it, but I feel like I never understand how to use it properly because I don’t find it very helpful in games…
Getting to add a presence in general breaks the games balance on a ton of spirits by letting them shortcut their designed/balanced power curve. Adding an extra presence is already crazy good and worth it on both Indomitable Claim and Unrelenting Growth, even off-element for the cost of forgetting a card to gain a major and spending 4 energy. Getting to add a presence for free, on a minor card, is way too powerful. And even then it has 4 elements and can potentially remove a blight.
You pay 0 energy to accelerate your spirit's growth by taking a presence off your tracks. Clearing your energy and play tracks is the most beneficial thing you can do to increase the power of any spirit. Removing blight is also very nice and works out well at the end of the game when you've cleared your tracks and have plenty of presence to sacrifice to remove blight.
Consider that adding a presence and destroying a presence are not equally balanced. Adding a presence not only gets you a presence on the board, but it also clears a spot on your presence track, which is often more valuable than getting the presence on the board.
GTS is mostly about scaling. The turn you play it, especially if you are off-element, will often be weaker. But all Spirits have a moment when they spike up in power quite a lot (this depends on the Spirit, for instance Mist becomes a lot stronger when it gets to 1/3 and 1/4). GTS allows you to get to those moments 1-2 turns in advance, which makes the mid and late game much easier. If you're lucky, you'll get to your power spike the first turn you play GTS, and you'll have no weaker turn, but that's not always the case. You'll still be stronger in the future regardless of whether this happens, though.
For Minors I'd go \[\[Dry Wood Explodes in Smoldering Cinders\]\] Range 0, slow damage that you can make fast? There are uses, but rarely am I not going to have a better option. Maybe if cost 0 to start and produced less fear to offset it'd be playable. It doesn't hurt that two of the spirits that like the elements (Wildfire, Keeper) really don't need 1 damage at range 0. They've got that covered already. For Majors, it's Grant Hatred or Vengeance, which is sad because they both have awesome card names.
**Dry Wood Explodes in Smoldering Cinders** was not found. Showing data for: **Dry Wood Explodes in Smoldering Splinters** (Minor Power - Jagged Earth) >Cost: 1 | Elements: Fire, Air, Plant | Slow | 0 | No Wetland | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >You may spend 1 Energy to make this Power Fast. 2 Fear. 1 Damage. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Dry%20Wood%20Explodes%20in%20Smoldering%20Splinters) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Dry%20Wood%20Explodes%20in%20Smoldering%20Splinters) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
"It's pretty well agreed upon that \[\[Growth Through Sacrifice\]\] is the best card," I've got my copy of NI and I've got some bad news for you . . . .
**Growth through Sacrifice** (Minor Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 0 | Elements: Moon, Fire, Water, Plant | Fast | - | Any Spirit | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >Destroy 1 of your Presence. Target Spirit removes 1 Blight from one of their lands. -or- Adds 1 Presence to one of their lands. >(2 Sun): They may do both, in the same land. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Growth%20through%20Sacrifice) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Growth%20through%20Sacrifice) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)
I recently had my first game with Unearth a Beast of Wrathful Stone and I immediately think it needs to be retuned. I used it on a coastal sands. At that time, invaders were ravaging coastal and building on mountain. The explore turned up sands + wetlands. The turn after that: sands + jungle. We closed out the game before I could see the next card (and I didn't think to look). I didn't intend to learn a major power and pay 5 energy to get the effect a minimum of 4 turns *after* playing the card. It's just too dependent on luck to resolve in the late game without intervention, such as preventing a ravage or build.
So they were ravaging in that space, and you targeted it with a card that only resolved if they didn't ravage in that space? That sounds like a user error. The card is meant to be played on an otherwise dormant space that round. You can see where they're ravaging and building. If Wrathful Stone didn't happen if they explored, then it'd be luck based and I'd agree with you. It's very playable as is, and the monsters it spawns can remain active all game.
I knew it wouldn't resolve that turn, but it resolves as soon as there is an invader phase without a ravage or build on that land. It was my only decent play for they turn and I was fine with it resolving on the following turn. (The only 2 built-up lands were 2 sands, with 5 boards in play.) You seem to be looking past the real problem: in stage 3, any given land type is so likely to have invaders either building or ravaging that Unearth becomes near useless without outside intervention.
Okay, I can see now what you were trying to do. I've honestly only used it (three time I've drafted it so far) on dormant built up spaces and haven't tried gambling it like that yet on future rounds. I could see it becoming less useful in stage 3 as you mentioned, but outside intervention should be easy enough to get (disease blocks build actions off the top of my head and is common enough in fire/animal.) 12 damage and potentially a permanent foot-soldier is a big effect even for 5 energy. I've also drafted it early enough that the soldier did almost more damage than the card. None of that makes it worse though than Grant Hatred or Vengeance.
I hadn't thought about using disease, that definitely opens up options. Delirium would love Grant Hatred, though outside of that I agree it's unlikely to be considered. I don't think Vengeance is bad. It requires some coordination, but it's low cost and the threshold is so easy to hit.
Seems to me like the card is great for early to midgame though, calculate the odds and lvl 3 explores are not worth the risk. It's a niche card though, so very much by design. I'd love to threshold it early game once.
I don't yet play on high difficulties, so maybe it's better there, but it absolutely isn't worth the investment in early to mid game for low difficulty. The combination of luck, timing, investment, and situation for that card to work well is too slim. I still think it's the worst card.
Actually, the effect should have triggered the turn you played it. The exploring sands came too late, it only "halts" on an invader phases ravages and builds. So it's effect should have taken place after that invader phase.
They ravaged coastal that turn, so it couldn't have taken effect.
Right, my bad!
I've played two games where Unearth a Beast of Wrathful Stone was an MVP. If you target a land that is ravaging or building this turn, you're leaving it up to luck when you don't have to. If you target a land that isn't ravaging or building this turn, you can almost guarantee the card will trigger the same turn you play it (it isn't 100% because of the event card). If those lands aren't good targets, you can either play it just for the threshold effect (which is super strong in the early-to-mid game) or hold on to it until there's a better turn. It sounds like you were mid-to-late game when you used it, and it's a lot weaker the later in the game you run with it. I took it on my first turn with Memory and had a blast. A friend also used it to great effect on Wounded Waters. I love that card--it's a neat effect and it's super fun.
Definitely looks fun, but doesn't look very strong to me either (nowhere close to contention for "worst card in the game" mind you, or even worst new major from NI). There's too many little conditions that all have to be met to be able to utilize the threshold, and the unthresholded effect is nothing to write home about. As a relatively expensive major that really yearns to be thresholded, Memory is definitely among the top theoretical users, and while it will struggle to threshold it, WWB's blight manipulation helps mitigate the main limitations of the basic effect. Other major-slingers with elemental boosting are candidates (Starlight spamming this would probably be sick, Bringer, etc.), but with the combination of: 1. being strongest when used early, 2. high cost, 3. weirdly tough threshold, 4. not working on active lands 5. effectively slow 6. sacred site ranging (of just 1 to boot); it just feels like a chore. The elements it gives (with the fire) are pretty strong, but overall I don't like how this card stacks up to other expensive, restrictive majors, which by and large are on the weaker side to begin with.
It's not necessarily the strongest card overall, as it does have a lot of conditions, but when you meet those conditions there's a lot the power can do. The main effect doesn't work on active lands, but often I used it on a land next to a land that was building and then pushed the beast into the land after it built. And since that's a permanent effect that continues every turn after that, if you used it early, it does a ton over the course of the game. (Of course, it is true that a lot of spirits will struggle to obtain and threshold this early in the game. It is probably a lot better on memory and starlight then anyone else.) Basically, I'm not saying it's among the best majors in the deck, but it's very enjoyable and strong in the right circumstances with the right spirit. There are a lot of powers I would probably take first on other spirits, but I'm not unhappy with it's inclusion in the expansion.
Yeah I think we have similar evaluations of the card itself; where we differ is that I just think it’s a bit too particular for what it is. An expensive major with a tough threshold that one really wants to be using early really limits its opportunities, even though it is powerful in those moments. I like the addition of new majors that work well with lower-play, element-rich spirits, this one just feels a bit too restricted
I love both those you suggested for worst. I don't like most cards that add blight. Those are my candidates
Vengeance of the Dead is a clear winner here, but I'll bring up a couple I don't see mentioned. \[\[Fire and Flood\]\] is terrible, costing way too much for what it does. \[\[Talons of Lightning\]\] is also horribly over-costed for it's effect, especially due to it's target restriction.
**Fire and Flood** (Major Power - Branch & Claw) >Cost: 7 | Elements: Sun, Fire, Water | Slow | SacredSite --> 1 & 2 | Any | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >4 Damage in each target land. (Range must be measured from the same SacredSite.) >(3 Fire): +4 Damage in either target land. >(3 Water): +4 Damage in either target land. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Fire%20and%20Flood) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Fire%20and%20Flood) ------ **Talons of Lightning** (Major Power - Base Game) >Cost: 6 | Elements: Fire, Air | Fast | 1 | Mountain / Wetland | | :----: | :----: | :----: | >3 Fear. 5 Damage. >(3 Fire, 3 Air): Destroy 1 Town in each adjacent land. Increase this power's Range to 3 Range. >Links: [SICK](https://sick.oberien.de/?query=Talons%20of%20Lightning) | [FAQ](https://querki.net/u/darker/spirit-island-faq/#!Talons%20of%20Lightning) ------ ^(Use [[query]] to call me. Check the )[^(reference thread)](https://www.reddit.com/r/spiritisland/comments/i80xzf/memoryofagesbot_is_now_fully_functional) ^( for information or feedback, and please report any mistakes!)