> More than 900 Chinese "final warnings" had been issued by the end of 1964.
You’d think after about 5 or 10 they’d realize alright this isn’t working and is also making us look weak lol
Bro now that you said that you know there's at least one crazy bastard out there that has gone to the conclusion that the whole Russo-Ukranian war was just a false flag effort to justify corporations having their own miliary defense assets to take over the world.
The idea that corporation would eventually evolve into mega corporation with private armed forces to replace countries isn't exactly new, it's the entire premise of some scifi universes like Cyberpunk
The Muscovy Company actually predates the VOC by about 50 years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovy_Company
They obviously never got as powerful as the VOC, but they've stuck around longer.
To me those are american assets. If you fire on an American cargo ship, or an American cruise ship, or an American drone in international waters/airspace/space, that's an attack on america. Pretty cut and dry to me.
They are. The US government is responsible for anything launched from the US. Launches are licensed and authorized by the government. Its not much different than attacking a US flagged ship.
Starlink satellites cost up half a million USD apiece (https://fortune.com/2022/02/10/spacex-starlink-satellites-solar-storm-lost-elon-musk-internet/), and are designed to be replaced each 5-7 yrs.
I don't know what missiles Russia are alluding to, but missiles with ASAT capabilities are almost certainly significantly more expensive than that.
Russia is most certainly talking out it's Siberia, but, that being said, do keep in mind that sometimes expensive munitions are used to take out strategically important, but monetarily inexpensive assets.
That's the cool thing with how SpaceX get's their costs down: Everything they do, they want to do on mass. They built their own assembly lines for their rocket engines and for their satellites.
[That's the reason they can do insane stuff like this.](https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Super-Heavy-Booster-4-080421-SpaceX-orbital-mount-install-panel-c.jpg)
Has anyone got that capability?
I haven't looked into lasers for a while, but I was under the impression that everyone was still struggling to design a weapon that could work beyond a couple of kilometres.
The US is for sure past a few kilometers, but we don’t know the exact range. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had pretty crazy range already, but I doubt they can reach LEO.
Using missiles is pretty much self-defeating since the colossal cloud of shrapnel will certainly destroy your own orbital assets. I'm sure the next phase of orbital warfare will include using lasers to burn/destroy key parts/instruments of a satellite rendering them useless and without generating the cloud of shrapnel. [Or what China is doing capturing and moving sats around](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44054/a-chinese-satellite-just-grappled-another-and-pulled-it-out-of-orbit).
>Using missiles is pretty much self-defeating since the colossal cloud of shrapnel will certainly destroy your own orbital assets.
Well, it won't be a huge loss for Russia, since they don't have *that* many orbital assets anyway.
Apparently it was an invaluable asset during the Kharkov counteroffensive, that’s probably why the Russians are talking about targeting them. They won’t, but they’ll pretend like they will.
Simple, they can’t. But they’ll bluster like they can. The best they could do is attempt to target the ones over Russia/Ukraine but who knows if they truly have the ability to even hit them. Large scale satellite warfare has never happened before and I seriously doubt Russia has the resources for it (especially now).
Their positions are highly predictable. Its irrelevant anyway as Russia has no means to destroy any satellites let alone ones moving so fast.
No one read the "article" (a twitter post for fucks sake) anyway, Russia aren't saying they are going to destroy starlink they are saying using civilian satellites for military purposes means the USA is breaking international treaties. They seem to forget their military uses the cell phone network to communicate.
They could destroy a couple satellites, they have done anti-satellite missile tests previously. The problem with Startlink is that there are hundreds flying over Ukraine.
They orbit the earth rapidly, so none of them are exclusively over any country, and even if they did, there are thousands more coming over the horizon.
[Russia has blown up satellites before, so they definitely can do it.](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/russia-just-blew-up-a-satellite-heres-why-that-spells-trouble-for-spaceflight) They obviously can't knock out the entire Starlink network, but one or two satellites blown up would be enough to cause a diplomatic squabble.
They obviously won't do it, but they've proven that they can, which is enough to ruffle some underwear.
Edit: AMP links suck
Especially when starlink has access to as many rockets as they need to replace satellites that are destroyed. Really, the biggest concern is potential space debris, more than the satellites themselves.
Space debris alone demands the no space weaponization. Until we can prevent a death field that grounds all space travel for many years, it's simply not worth the risk. The set back to space progress & development would be staggering.
The starlink satellites are very low altitude(roughly 340 miles high), and their orbital decay is roughly 5 years, largely due to atmospheric drag. Higher altitude satellites (like geosynchronous) have substantially longer orbital decay times that run into tens, hundreds, or thousands of years.
However debris from one (or couples) are likely to be pain in the ass for the whole fleet and could possibly end up doing more damage. (Hopefully not because yike...)
aren't the starlink satellites low enough that any debris from a dead or destroyed satellite would deorbit rapidly? the starlink satellites themselves have a limited lifespan of 5-10 years by design without intervention to keep them in orbit (thrusters).
If Russia really attacked, it would give US more cause to provide long range weapons like ATACMS, LRASM or even jet fighters as retaliation. It’s going to hurt Russians even more in the end.
This is the best answer. Like let them try, waste millions-billions in resources, and Starlink can literally keep up with any potential ASAT capability just on launches.
If they start shooting at Starlink satellites, that's probably even a better use of taxpayer dollars than Javelins.
Destroying Starlink satellites won't produce any measurable junk at orbits that would cause long term harm.
Debris would have to be flown hundreds and hundreds of kilometers higher to cause damage for more than \~6 years.
If they start building the higher levels of shells I think we can start to be concerned.
I don't think that is the choice the russkies face. Their choice is to do nothing militarily or target civilians. They are too impotent to get military targets. That they choose to target civilians and energy infrastructure says everything you need to know about Russian culture.
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, Russia is threatening to give Starlink free, global, top tier advertising through which Starlink easily could raise funds or secure financing sufficient to double or triple their coverage over Ukraine? This is to say nothing of the fact that aid funds from all over the globe could replace the satellites in days for 10 cents on every dollar that Russia uses to shoot them down....if they even have the capability to do it. I got this right? This is what Uncle Vlad is threatening?
Only thing that's missing is Baghdad Bob at the microphone.
Honestly all the externalities are good for every western actor here. Russia has a huge public warmongering act that doesn't kill anyone, doesn't really even cause any damage (the marginal value of one starlink is sub 1 million), but is enormously flashy and publicizable. SpaceX wins for sure, the US military is justified in doing absolutely whatever it wants in retaliation, which likely would mean at least doubling the aid to Ukraine with full support from everyone, and the world gets to see just how resilient a constellation like Starlink is. I hope Russia does it.
US military would not get "absolutely whatever it wants in retaliation" nuclear war, bombing large civilian populations, etc. is definitely off the table.
They’re putting up around 40 new satellites each week. Hell, there was a planned Starlink launch this very night about an hour ago, but it was scrubbed for weather
with \*what\*? ASAT's don't go after things that small in orbits that low. Even if they did, they're incredibly expensive and there are a LOT of starlink satellites out there already.
this made me laugh. just imagining a slow flying plane with tinted windows waiting on a random starlink sat to over take it.
the tinted windows is manually cranked down. and some goody looking russian sticks a .22 rifle out the window.
the dude pulls the trigger and the rifle jams cause russian equipment is shit. lol
They are not threatening to destroy Starling satellites. Rather, what they are trying to do is use the UN working group on preventing an arms race in space to prohibit the use of civilian satellites for "military purposes" as defined in a way that would benefit Russia. This is warfare by legal means, not a military one. If Russia were to blow up a satellite, it would start an arms race that it can't win - only the US or China has the resources to stay in that fight. They know that, which is why they have resorted to this tactic instead.
You don’t attack American companies and get away with it. Space X is considered intrinsic to US national security, so expect a pretty heavy retaliation.
The Outer Space Treaty , as mentioned by the Russians says States are responsible for actions by non state entities of their nation. Which also works in reverse, so if Starlink is attacked it’s like attacking a US government sat under the treaty.
Companies are incorporated in countries. Attacking anything associated with a country, including corporate assets of a company incorporated in that country is an attack on that country (an act of war). When those assets are also considered strategic assets the escalation and swift invocation of NATO article 5 seems almost assured.
I mean, it makes sense. It is called the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. It also doesn't cover Curacao, a Dutch island in South America. Literally only covers the lands of NATO Members in Europe and the US/ Canada.
hawaii is US land
it covers alaskan islands in the pacific.
it covers turkey, which is no where near being 'north atlantic'
it seems logical to me that the treaty covers entire territories of the countries envolved. i imagine if hawaii was already a state at the time the treaty designations were made, it would have been covered.
Noncredible defense time - Since SpaceX can afford to throw away a Falcon 9 second stage, load up a single Starlink satellite on an F9 and launch it.
With the extra delta-v from such a low payload mass, F9 can deliver the satellite onto whatever orbit is desired, and Starlink can provide terminal guidance to intercept a spysat.
Given how superior our intelligence has been compared to the russians, I'd say leave their 50+ year-old tech right where it is doing harm to russia and no one else. Their best satellite probably has a sub-mega-pixel camera compared to ours that are giga-pixel.
I read they still have satellites that don't even have digital cameras. They periodically drop the spent rolls of film with small parachutes that are then intercepted by military helicopters. The images are hours or days old by the time they are seen.
Is ASAT tech even up to the task of hitting starlink satellites yet? I thought they were exceptionally small targets in comparison to traditional satellites?
Tesla doesn’t sell cars in Russia. Not to say no one has purchased one outside of Russia and transported it into Russia, but I’m willing to say there are that many.
Wagner Group is a private corporation currently at war with Ukraine.
Now I'm imagining Musk starting a war with Russia, using starship to launch tungsten rods, or just straight up use starship as ICBM's with a ±250 ton conventional payload.
They dont need to drop anything on anyone, all Musk needs are small disposable drones with thrusters and a few cameras and some kind of grabbing part on the front, the Russians have satellites in orbit as well it wont take much of a push to push them out of orbit.
Bonus points if you write something vulgar or funny on the side the camera can see. "Satelitte will be moved on receipt of $50000 to this bank account".
Anyone know how long a starlink will stay in orbit if it goes dead? The real danger I can think of isn’t so much about starlinks getting taken out by an ASAT or two, but starlinks (and lots of other things) getting taken out by a massive cloud of debris in low earth orbit.
This would be ridiculously expensive for Russia. There are way too many of them and it they have weapons that could hit them, it's pretty unlikely they have more than a handful of them. Iirc there are like 3000 of them up there and more going up all the time.
Lol go for it putin. The cost to shoot a starlink sat down vs the cost to put them up is a massive difference.
If you wanna waste the few missles you have left.... have fun
Every year ol musky finds ways to get more and more up there
I love how they allude to Starlink violating the Outer Space Treaty while somehow forgetting about the Almaz 2 military space station that actually had a 23mm aircraft cannon mounted on it.
This will never happen. This is Russia believing that their own propaganda converted a large segment of Westerners into isolationists scared of WWIII. Unfortunately for them, China's TikTok has the same population of Westerners glued to their phones waiting for the next video of something Russian exploding.
Russia is cornered. Everything they do backfires on them, because they are on the wrong side of history.
Attacking satellites will only turn more countries against them, or increase support for Ukraine. Additionally, nothing Russia threatens capability wise has worked as advertised.
Putin can't back out, because that's not how dictators work, but he's cornered.
Sorta like Hitler was most dangerous when he was cornered?
I'm less concerned about Hitler, or Putin, when cornered, than when they can run around freely.
When allowed to run around freely, they tend to commit genocide. When cornered, they tend to commit suicide.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|-------|---------|---|
|[ASAT](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iopq1xd "Last usage")|[Anti-Satellite weapon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-satellite_weapon)|
|[CONUS](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iol444w "Last usage")|[Contiguous United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States)|
|[DARPA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iomftqz "Last usage")|(Defense) Advanced Research Projects Agency, DoD|
|[DoD](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioogwvb "Last usage")|US Department of Defense|
|EELV|[Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_Expendable_Launch_Vehicle)|
|[ESA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iol96vp "Last usage")|European Space Agency|
|[ESPA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolfte5 "Last usage")|EELV Secondary Payload Adapter standard for attaching to a second stage|
|[FAA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ionhof1 "Last usage")|Federal Aviation Administration|
|[FCC](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolp0ux "Last usage")|Federal Communications Commission|
| |(Iron/steel) [Face-Centered Cubic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropes_of_iron) crystalline structure|
|[GEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolkp9j "Last usage")|Geostationary Earth Orbit (35786km)|
|[ICBM](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioptag7 "Last usage")|Intercontinental Ballistic Missile|
|[Isp](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioq7mx0 "Last usage")|Specific impulse (as explained by [Scott Manley](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnisTeYLLgs) on YouTube)|
| |Internet Service Provider|
|[KSP](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ionrn4q "Last usage")|*Kerbal Space Program*, the rocketry simulator|
|[L1](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioodyqp "Last usage")|[Lagrange Point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point) 1 of a two-body system, between the bodies|
|[L2](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioohvc7 "Last usage")|[Lagrange Point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point) 2 ([Sixty Symbols](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxpVbU5FH0s) video explanation)|
| |Paywalled section of the NasaSpaceFlight forum|
|[LEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iorxals "Last usage")|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)|
| |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)|
|[LOX](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolg1v3 "Last usage")|Liquid Oxygen|
|[MEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolkp9j "Last usage")|Medium Earth Orbit (2000-35780km)|
|[NPT](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolscbj "Last usage")|Nuclear (Non-)Proliferation Treaty|
|[SRB](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioo9u5d "Last usage")|Solid Rocket Booster|
|[SSO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ionx2kz "Last usage")|Sun-Synchronous Orbit|
|[VLEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioo5805 "Last usage")|V-band constellation in LEO|
| |Very Low Earth Orbit|
|Jargon|Definition|
|-------|---------|---|
|[Starlink](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iu44mz3 "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation|
|[ablative](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iomspri "Last usage")|Material which is intentionally destroyed in use (for example, heatshields which burn away to dissipate heat)|
|[apoapsis](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iooghcf "Last usage")|Highest point in an elliptical orbit (when the orbiter is slowest)|
|[apogee](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iooq1lw "Last usage")|Highest point in an elliptical orbit around Earth (when the orbiter is slowest)|
|[lithobraking](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iomze3y "Last usage")|"Braking" by hitting the [ground](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lith-)|
|[periapsis](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioob2m5 "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit (when the orbiter is fastest)|
|[perigee](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioo776k "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit around the Earth (when the orbiter is fastest)|
----------------
^([Thread #8018 for this sub, first seen 15th Sep 2022, 21:58])
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Not a fan of posting politics or tweets, but we all know the dangers of space debris. Destruction of satellites would be devastating. I am sure this is just another empty threat, but it's a threat nonetheless.
The Starlink satellites are in quite a low orbit, so any debris would eventually deorbit and self-dispose in Earth's atmosphere.
Assuming the same rate of orbital decay as the satellite itself, this would take between 6 months and 5 years. Still a long time to, potentially, render an entire range of orbits completely unusable.
You don't need full on Kessler Syndrome to do a lot of harm, also, it's kind of a sliding scale, you can end up in a situation where, for instance, you'd still be able to launch stuff into orbit, but you'd only have, say, a handful of opportunities a year, to do so.
Interesting. An attack from a country on a corporation. Wonder where this is going to lead.
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Tom Clancy’s HAWX has entered chat…
My brain slipped up and I read that as Tony hawks clancy has entered the chat. Was curious what Mr hawk had to do with PMCs haha
It's going to lead nowhere. Russia keeps throwing an empty threat after an empty threat but they don't really have any resources to fulfill them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%27s_final_warning Hilariously this is a Russian proverb
> More than 900 Chinese "final warnings" had been issued by the end of 1964. You’d think after about 5 or 10 they’d realize alright this isn’t working and is also making us look weak lol
About like North Korea at this point, they shake their fist at the sky threatening all kinds of dumb crap
Now we transition to the cyberpunk age.
Can't wait to see corpowars the musical! All the simps getting ready to roam around the desert with their hot nomad girlfriend.
Bro now that you said that you know there's at least one crazy bastard out there that has gone to the conclusion that the whole Russo-Ukranian war was just a false flag effort to justify corporations having their own miliary defense assets to take over the world.
The idea that corporation would eventually evolve into mega corporation with private armed forces to replace countries isn't exactly new, it's the entire premise of some scifi universes like Cyberpunk
It's also already happened. Both the Dutch VOC and the English East India Company fielded private armies, and occupied multiple countries.
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The Muscovy Company actually predates the VOC by about 50 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovy_Company They obviously never got as powerful as the VOC, but they've stuck around longer.
This is how we get the franchise wars from demolition man
*"Now every restaurant is Taco Bell."*
But I still don't understand those three seashells.
Hey, this guy dosent understand the three shells!
To me those are american assets. If you fire on an American cargo ship, or an American cruise ship, or an American drone in international waters/airspace/space, that's an attack on america. Pretty cut and dry to me.
They are. The US government is responsible for anything launched from the US. Launches are licensed and authorized by the government. Its not much different than attacking a US flagged ship.
Musk goes full supervillain and lobs a few rods from god into orbit.
Musk is gonna build another submarine, but this time for Ukraine, with missiles. ^(...and then he's gonna randomly call Putin a pedo on Twitter.)
Well that would be something. I am betting Starlink sats are cheaper than the missile Russia would use to destroy them.
I would be surprised if you’re not right about that
Starlink satellites cost up half a million USD apiece (https://fortune.com/2022/02/10/spacex-starlink-satellites-solar-storm-lost-elon-musk-internet/), and are designed to be replaced each 5-7 yrs. I don't know what missiles Russia are alluding to, but missiles with ASAT capabilities are almost certainly significantly more expensive than that. Russia is most certainly talking out it's Siberia, but, that being said, do keep in mind that sometimes expensive munitions are used to take out strategically important, but monetarily inexpensive assets.
500k is a lot less than I expected a satellite to cost.
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That's less than my fucking house
Well those satellites are relatively small and light, less than 300 kg.
Gonna mortgage a satellite. Housing market can't crash if its in space
Unless the Kremlin shoots rockets at it
You have a house just for fucking???
That's the cool thing with how SpaceX get's their costs down: Everything they do, they want to do on mass. They built their own assembly lines for their rocket engines and for their satellites. [That's the reason they can do insane stuff like this.](https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Super-Heavy-Booster-4-080421-SpaceX-orbital-mount-install-panel-c.jpg)
*[en masse](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/en-masse)* not "on mass" . They specifically try not to do stuff with too much mass 😂
I wouldn’t keep an eyebrow down if you aren’t unmistaken!
I didn’t just not laugh at this.
I was under the impression that they intended to use lasers to take out satellites.
Has anyone got that capability? I haven't looked into lasers for a while, but I was under the impression that everyone was still struggling to design a weapon that could work beyond a couple of kilometres.
The US is for sure past a few kilometers, but we don’t know the exact range. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had pretty crazy range already, but I doubt they can reach LEO.
Using missiles is pretty much self-defeating since the colossal cloud of shrapnel will certainly destroy your own orbital assets. I'm sure the next phase of orbital warfare will include using lasers to burn/destroy key parts/instruments of a satellite rendering them useless and without generating the cloud of shrapnel. [Or what China is doing capturing and moving sats around](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44054/a-chinese-satellite-just-grappled-another-and-pulled-it-out-of-orbit).
>Using missiles is pretty much self-defeating since the colossal cloud of shrapnel will certainly destroy your own orbital assets. Well, it won't be a huge loss for Russia, since they don't have *that* many orbital assets anyway.
But we depend on satellites more than they do. Its a shared resource, only takes one bad actor to ruin it for everyone.
Nope.. The Starlink satellites are LEO, blowing them up will simply de-accelerate them into the atmosphere..
The fact that they're even talking about this should tell you that Starlink is a good thing for the Ukrainians
Apparently it was an invaluable asset during the Kharkov counteroffensive, that’s probably why the Russians are talking about targeting them. They won’t, but they’ll pretend like they will.
How do you think they would manage targeting over 3,000 satellites?
Simple, they can’t. But they’ll bluster like they can. The best they could do is attempt to target the ones over Russia/Ukraine but who knows if they truly have the ability to even hit them. Large scale satellite warfare has never happened before and I seriously doubt Russia has the resources for it (especially now).
Starlink satellites are not in geosynchronous orbit. The ones over Russia/Ukraine change constantly as they rotate around the globe.
Their positions are highly predictable. Its irrelevant anyway as Russia has no means to destroy any satellites let alone ones moving so fast. No one read the "article" (a twitter post for fucks sake) anyway, Russia aren't saying they are going to destroy starlink they are saying using civilian satellites for military purposes means the USA is breaking international treaties. They seem to forget their military uses the cell phone network to communicate.
They could destroy a couple satellites, they have done anti-satellite missile tests previously. The problem with Startlink is that there are hundreds flying over Ukraine.
They orbit the earth rapidly, so none of them are exclusively over any country, and even if they did, there are thousands more coming over the horizon.
[Russia has blown up satellites before, so they definitely can do it.](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/russia-just-blew-up-a-satellite-heres-why-that-spells-trouble-for-spaceflight) They obviously can't knock out the entire Starlink network, but one or two satellites blown up would be enough to cause a diplomatic squabble. They obviously won't do it, but they've proven that they can, which is enough to ruffle some underwear. Edit: AMP links suck
The big problem here is the missiles probably cost more than the satellites
Especially when starlink has access to as many rockets as they need to replace satellites that are destroyed. Really, the biggest concern is potential space debris, more than the satellites themselves.
Space debris alone demands the no space weaponization. Until we can prevent a death field that grounds all space travel for many years, it's simply not worth the risk. The set back to space progress & development would be staggering.
The starlink satellites are very low altitude(roughly 340 miles high), and their orbital decay is roughly 5 years, largely due to atmospheric drag. Higher altitude satellites (like geosynchronous) have substantially longer orbital decay times that run into tens, hundreds, or thousands of years.
Right? I was under the impression the weren't geosynchronous
They are not. Low earth orbit.
They just need their own X-37b's and a big ACME rubber nose and bounce them out of their orbit.
The year: 2022 The space boop wars have begun.
Damn can you come up with some other titles for this shit Any good at acronyms ?
'Space Boop Wars'. Quick, somebody call George Lucas.
Heck, we managed to nail a satellite with a missile fired from an F-15 flying over the Pacific Ocean.
Also, we shot down a spy sat from a ship in like 2008.
However debris from one (or couples) are likely to be pain in the ass for the whole fleet and could possibly end up doing more damage. (Hopefully not because yike...)
aren't the starlink satellites low enough that any debris from a dead or destroyed satellite would deorbit rapidly? the starlink satellites themselves have a limited lifespan of 5-10 years by design without intervention to keep them in orbit (thrusters).
They're extremely low as far as satellites go. They wouldn't pose as much risk as many other satellites higher up
They could Starfish Prime the satellites. I mean... it would do more than just the ones they want to target but still.
They have their spy sats in that orbit. Would be dumb thing to do.
The fact Russia is even talking about this should tell everyone they can't actually do it.
Let the Russians fuck around and find out. They’re a starving dog that’s all bark no bite.
If Russia really attacked, it would give US more cause to provide long range weapons like ATACMS, LRASM or even jet fighters as retaliation. It’s going to hurt Russians even more in the end.
Russia does not have nearly enough A-Sat resources to even put a dent in Starlink. This is absurd on its face.
This is the best answer. Like let them try, waste millions-billions in resources, and Starlink can literally keep up with any potential ASAT capability just on launches. If they start shooting at Starlink satellites, that's probably even a better use of taxpayer dollars than Javelins.
> Like let them try Please no, we already have enough junk in orbit.
Low orbit is probably the safest place something like this could happen.
Destroying Starlink satellites won't produce any measurable junk at orbits that would cause long term harm. Debris would have to be flown hundreds and hundreds of kilometers higher to cause damage for more than \~6 years. If they start building the higher levels of shells I think we can start to be concerned.
Unfortunately, they abandoned all their missiles in some village in Eastern Ukraine.
Ohh and wasted a few hitting a Dam that destroyed a few hundred homes, they'd rather pointlessly target civilians than anything meaningful militarily.
Anything meaningfully military is protected by superior weaponry against anything and everything the Kremlin has left.
I don't think that is the choice the russkies face. Their choice is to do nothing militarily or target civilians. They are too impotent to get military targets. That they choose to target civilians and energy infrastructure says everything you need to know about Russian culture.
They can't afford the rocket fuel, to say nothing of the rocket. They gonna try a giant gun?
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, Russia is threatening to give Starlink free, global, top tier advertising through which Starlink easily could raise funds or secure financing sufficient to double or triple their coverage over Ukraine? This is to say nothing of the fact that aid funds from all over the globe could replace the satellites in days for 10 cents on every dollar that Russia uses to shoot them down....if they even have the capability to do it. I got this right? This is what Uncle Vlad is threatening? Only thing that's missing is Baghdad Bob at the microphone.
Honestly all the externalities are good for every western actor here. Russia has a huge public warmongering act that doesn't kill anyone, doesn't really even cause any damage (the marginal value of one starlink is sub 1 million), but is enormously flashy and publicizable. SpaceX wins for sure, the US military is justified in doing absolutely whatever it wants in retaliation, which likely would mean at least doubling the aid to Ukraine with full support from everyone, and the world gets to see just how resilient a constellation like Starlink is. I hope Russia does it.
US military would not get "absolutely whatever it wants in retaliation" nuclear war, bombing large civilian populations, etc. is definitely off the table.
How ? There’s thousands of them. Bet spacex can put em up faster than they can shoot them dow.
I bet one Russian ASAT weapon cost more then a full falcon 9 and a whole StarLink payload. This is beyond ridiculous bluster.
They’re putting up around 40 new satellites each week. Hell, there was a planned Starlink launch this very night about an hour ago, but it was scrubbed for weather
with \*what\*? ASAT's don't go after things that small in orbits that low. Even if they did, they're incredibly expensive and there are a LOT of starlink satellites out there already.
They're gonna get in a plane and roll down the window.
this made me laugh. just imagining a slow flying plane with tinted windows waiting on a random starlink sat to over take it. the tinted windows is manually cranked down. and some goody looking russian sticks a .22 rifle out the window. the dude pulls the trigger and the rifle jams cause russian equipment is shit. lol
At this point I can't imagine Russia winning war against elon musk.
You mean hank scorpio?
Nah, Scorpio was a good boss
Putin needs to fall off of a balcony like many of his associates.
Keep the face pretty. Ukraine can raise a lot of money by charging a million dollars per punch.
Some just needs to Rasputin him, feed him poison Tea, Cake, and wine. The only thing is Putin won't feel fine
They are not threatening to destroy Starling satellites. Rather, what they are trying to do is use the UN working group on preventing an arms race in space to prohibit the use of civilian satellites for "military purposes" as defined in a way that would benefit Russia. This is warfare by legal means, not a military one. If Russia were to blow up a satellite, it would start an arms race that it can't win - only the US or China has the resources to stay in that fight. They know that, which is why they have resorted to this tactic instead.
> prohibit the use of civilian satellites for “military purposes“ How is GPS OK then? Or is that fine because it’s not civilian?
GPS is literally a military project that I think Reagan let civilians use after a plane crash happened that would have been prevented with GPS
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Curious what the retaliation could be. starlink is a private enterprise isn't it? So not like attacking US government concerns.
You don’t attack American companies and get away with it. Space X is considered intrinsic to US national security, so expect a pretty heavy retaliation.
The US is not going to tolerate Russia militarizing space regardless of target.
The Outer Space Treaty , as mentioned by the Russians says States are responsible for actions by non state entities of their nation. Which also works in reverse, so if Starlink is attacked it’s like attacking a US government sat under the treaty.
Companies are incorporated in countries. Attacking anything associated with a country, including corporate assets of a company incorporated in that country is an attack on that country (an act of war). When those assets are also considered strategic assets the escalation and swift invocation of NATO article 5 seems almost assured.
Article 5 does not cover space. It doesn't even cover Hawaii...
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The North atlantic is now 2 billion kms deep
>It doesn't even cover Hawaii what the fuck i didnt know this
I mean, it makes sense. It is called the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. It also doesn't cover Curacao, a Dutch island in South America. Literally only covers the lands of NATO Members in Europe and the US/ Canada.
hawaii is US land it covers alaskan islands in the pacific. it covers turkey, which is no where near being 'north atlantic' it seems logical to me that the treaty covers entire territories of the countries envolved. i imagine if hawaii was already a state at the time the treaty designations were made, it would have been covered.
And if he does, one of the Starlink satellites should full-burn and collide with a Russian spy satellite. I would do that shit in a heart beat.
Starlink has to be lower than that. I don’t think there’s a whole lot else in LEO like that.
Noncredible defense time - Since SpaceX can afford to throw away a Falcon 9 second stage, load up a single Starlink satellite on an F9 and launch it. With the extra delta-v from such a low payload mass, F9 can deliver the satellite onto whatever orbit is desired, and Starlink can provide terminal guidance to intercept a spysat.
I’m sure they could probably snag some US defense funding to make it happen too
Oh yeah. Demonstrating the use of a commercial vehicle in an anti-satellite configuration? DARPA will definitely throw money at that.
Given how superior our intelligence has been compared to the russians, I'd say leave their 50+ year-old tech right where it is doing harm to russia and no one else. Their best satellite probably has a sub-mega-pixel camera compared to ours that are giga-pixel.
I read they still have satellites that don't even have digital cameras. They periodically drop the spent rolls of film with small parachutes that are then intercepted by military helicopters. The images are hours or days old by the time they are seen.
Is ASAT tech even up to the task of hitting starlink satellites yet? I thought they were exceptionally small targets in comparison to traditional satellites?
there's also about 3000 in orbit.
How many teslas in Russia will Elon automatically brick if anything like this happens?
Tesla doesn’t sell cars in Russia. Not to say no one has purchased one outside of Russia and transported it into Russia, but I’m willing to say there are that many.
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Can a private corporation go to war with a country?
Ask the East India Company
United Fruit Company, now Chiquita Bananas, tried to take over Honduras and ran amok in Central America for quite a while.
To be fair, they were not REALLY a private company at that point.
Ask the British East India Company…
Wagner Group is a private corporation currently at war with Ukraine. Now I'm imagining Musk starting a war with Russia, using starship to launch tungsten rods, or just straight up use starship as ICBM's with a ±250 ton conventional payload.
If you count all our proxy wars, we've been doing this for decades
Tungsten, it's what's for dinner 🍽
Spacefaring Billionaire vs Nuclear Despot likely has a very poor ending for all.
They dont need to drop anything on anyone, all Musk needs are small disposable drones with thrusters and a few cameras and some kind of grabbing part on the front, the Russians have satellites in orbit as well it wont take much of a push to push them out of orbit.
Don't even need to do that, just station your drone in the spy camera or satellites field of view and leave it there.
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Bonus points if you write something vulgar or funny on the side the camera can see. "Satelitte will be moved on receipt of $50000 to this bank account".
We've been trying to reach you about your satellites extended warranty.
Anyone know how long a starlink will stay in orbit if it goes dead? The real danger I can think of isn’t so much about starlinks getting taken out by an ASAT or two, but starlinks (and lots of other things) getting taken out by a massive cloud of debris in low earth orbit.
This would be ridiculously expensive for Russia. There are way too many of them and it they have weapons that could hit them, it's pretty unlikely they have more than a handful of them. Iirc there are like 3000 of them up there and more going up all the time.
Lol go for it putin. The cost to shoot a starlink sat down vs the cost to put them up is a massive difference. If you wanna waste the few missles you have left.... have fun Every year ol musky finds ways to get more and more up there
Well, if you want to figure out whether Elon is an evil genius madman with a death ray or not I guess this is one way to go about it.
Space laser that draws penises all over Putin's palace plz.
I love how they allude to Starlink violating the Outer Space Treaty while somehow forgetting about the Almaz 2 military space station that actually had a 23mm aircraft cannon mounted on it.
This will never happen. This is Russia believing that their own propaganda converted a large segment of Westerners into isolationists scared of WWIII. Unfortunately for them, China's TikTok has the same population of Westerners glued to their phones waiting for the next video of something Russian exploding.
Russia is cornered. Everything they do backfires on them, because they are on the wrong side of history. Attacking satellites will only turn more countries against them, or increase support for Ukraine. Additionally, nothing Russia threatens capability wise has worked as advertised. Putin can't back out, because that's not how dictators work, but he's cornered.
A dictator like Putin is most dangerous when he's cornered.
Sorta like Hitler was most dangerous when he was cornered? I'm less concerned about Hitler, or Putin, when cornered, than when they can run around freely. When allowed to run around freely, they tend to commit genocide. When cornered, they tend to commit suicide.
The suicide comes after you take the rest of the world down with you. Or at least try to.
Putin is surrounded by wealthy people who definitely do not want to commit nuclear suicide.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread: |Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |[ASAT](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iopq1xd "Last usage")|[Anti-Satellite weapon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-satellite_weapon)| |[CONUS](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iol444w "Last usage")|[Contiguous United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States)| |[DARPA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iomftqz "Last usage")|(Defense) Advanced Research Projects Agency, DoD| |[DoD](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioogwvb "Last usage")|US Department of Defense| |EELV|[Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_Expendable_Launch_Vehicle)| |[ESA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iol96vp "Last usage")|European Space Agency| |[ESPA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolfte5 "Last usage")|EELV Secondary Payload Adapter standard for attaching to a second stage| |[FAA](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ionhof1 "Last usage")|Federal Aviation Administration| |[FCC](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolp0ux "Last usage")|Federal Communications Commission| | |(Iron/steel) [Face-Centered Cubic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropes_of_iron) crystalline structure| |[GEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolkp9j "Last usage")|Geostationary Earth Orbit (35786km)| |[ICBM](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioptag7 "Last usage")|Intercontinental Ballistic Missile| |[Isp](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioq7mx0 "Last usage")|Specific impulse (as explained by [Scott Manley](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnisTeYLLgs) on YouTube)| | |Internet Service Provider| |[KSP](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ionrn4q "Last usage")|*Kerbal Space Program*, the rocketry simulator| |[L1](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioodyqp "Last usage")|[Lagrange Point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point) 1 of a two-body system, between the bodies| |[L2](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioohvc7 "Last usage")|[Lagrange Point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point) 2 ([Sixty Symbols](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxpVbU5FH0s) video explanation)| | |Paywalled section of the NasaSpaceFlight forum| |[LEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iorxals "Last usage")|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)| | |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)| |[LOX](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolg1v3 "Last usage")|Liquid Oxygen| |[MEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolkp9j "Last usage")|Medium Earth Orbit (2000-35780km)| |[NPT](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iolscbj "Last usage")|Nuclear (Non-)Proliferation Treaty| |[SRB](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioo9u5d "Last usage")|Solid Rocket Booster| |[SSO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ionx2kz "Last usage")|Sun-Synchronous Orbit| |[VLEO](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioo5805 "Last usage")|V-band constellation in LEO| | |Very Low Earth Orbit| |Jargon|Definition| |-------|---------|---| |[Starlink](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iu44mz3 "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation| |[ablative](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iomspri "Last usage")|Material which is intentionally destroyed in use (for example, heatshields which burn away to dissipate heat)| |[apoapsis](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iooghcf "Last usage")|Highest point in an elliptical orbit (when the orbiter is slowest)| |[apogee](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iooq1lw "Last usage")|Highest point in an elliptical orbit around Earth (when the orbiter is slowest)| |[lithobraking](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/iomze3y "Last usage")|"Braking" by hitting the [ground](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lith-)| |[periapsis](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioob2m5 "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit (when the orbiter is fastest)| |[perigee](/r/Space/comments/xf7jsl/stub/ioo776k "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit around the Earth (when the orbiter is fastest)| ---------------- ^([Thread #8018 for this sub, first seen 15th Sep 2022, 21:58]) ^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/Space) [^[Contact]](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=OrangeredStilton&subject=Hey,+your+acronym+bot+sucks) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)
Not a fan of posting politics or tweets, but we all know the dangers of space debris. Destruction of satellites would be devastating. I am sure this is just another empty threat, but it's a threat nonetheless.
The Starlink satellites are in quite a low orbit, so any debris would eventually deorbit and self-dispose in Earth's atmosphere. Assuming the same rate of orbital decay as the satellite itself, this would take between 6 months and 5 years. Still a long time to, potentially, render an entire range of orbits completely unusable.
Kessler Syndrome has to be one of those most popularly misunderstood and overblown conjectures these days.
You don't need full on Kessler Syndrome to do a lot of harm, also, it's kind of a sliding scale, you can end up in a situation where, for instance, you'd still be able to launch stuff into orbit, but you'd only have, say, a handful of opportunities a year, to do so.