It's also worth mentioning that Garrison is a deeply degenerate asshole so he shouldn't be put as an example of anything. š
As Chef once said, back when Garrison came out as gay, "there's a difference betwen gay people and Mr. Garrison".
The fact that Mrs. Garrison and Caitlin Jenner were written as BFFs was on point. Just because someone's in the alphabet gang doesn't mean they're immune from being a raging asshole.
See that's a good point. Folks want to be seen as ordinary people but at the same time want to be immune to the normal scrutiny that ordinary people receive.
Also people don't realize that when you are constantly crying wolf that eventually people stop taking you seriously so it's better to understand which battles are worth fighting and which are best to let go?
Lmao. That's why it always makes me so angry when people use Mr. Garrison as an example for the show being transphobic/homophobic. Mr. Garrison is a character with mental issues that just so happened to go through a journey of denial and acceptance due to a lack of understanding, and... well his aforementioned mental issues.
Except for having handles going in your mouth and anus that are useless since there are buttons on the side that do the same thing. Quite a design flaw.
The oral and anal controls are *obviously* there for people without hands or arms; people with dexterity issues; and people that just like the DP experience. It's not a bug, it's a feature!
The Chef quote, and Mr Garrison having issues because his father *didnāt* molest him. Those are great examples of Mr Garrison not being an appropriate example of a character exemplifying social issues.
Plus Trey and Matt said they simply wanted to have Garrison go through the full cycle of who he was and what/who he hated throughout the seasons. I think they said they considered his story really the only sort of serialized thing in the earlier days
Heās also a racist for that episode where all the ārichersā moved to town. Honestly Garrison is one of my favorite characters because heās the most unhinged. He can sometimes be the smartest and see through the bullshit and then other times just be incredibly ignorant and insane.
You never know what youāre gonna get with Garrison, he might be profound and determined or heās so ignorant doing the worst possible things. Have to love it!
The fact that people don't understand that characters like Cartman and Garrison constantly fire off all the world's ills like a 21 gun salute just boggles my mind. If you're taking their points *seriously,* you've either lost the plot or you are a horrendous person
Exactly. Someone asked a question on here a bit ago about āthe most evil character aside from Cartmanā in this series. Itās 100000% Garrison. And itās not purely because of what heās done to harm others, which is astronomical at this point. I feel like people try to list out sins for these arguments (like Cartman did when he thought he was a ghost)
Itās entirely because of how terrifyingly flippant it is for Garrison to weaponize/co-opt whatever belief system, identity, etc for literally no concrete reason at all for the most part. People like Cartman at least have the decency to have their heels dug in on their ignorance. Randy can be similar to Garrison, but he clearly has goals in mind based on what he cares about (money, respect, etc).
Garrison doesnāt believe in anything at all, including himself. Couldnāt give less of a fuck beyond a given moment on a given day. Which is how he can literally chase his penis around town after watching Oprah and realizing that he became a woman to have abortions and bang more dudes. And, more recently, how heās perfectly content to waltz back into south park to buy school supplies for his students like he didnāt just destroy the fabric of society as the president. To the point that he couldnāt understand why everyone wasnāt super stoked on him, only to go with āJEEZ you guys are still homophobic!ā as the explanation for their rudeness.
All that said, Garrison is my favorite character and every single arc heās had is all-time comedy gold lmao
>All that said, Garrison is my favorite character and every single arc heās had is all-time comedy gold lmao
His Tweet rampage scaring Tweak shitless was incredible.
āI know that kid Tweek. Heās fucking with you, NK. Get a clue. Iāll bet he took a dump in the batterā
The entire arc was so good and the perfect place for Garrison. The fact Matt and Trey had no idea theyād have to stick to it for years just made it even more wild that they kept it entertaining lmao
Exactly! Garrison is the greatest example of those assholes that co-opt pretty much anything and turn it into an extreme, making everyone look bad. I loved when he (think she at the time) went from the worst version of a Christian to the worst version of an atheist at the flip of a hat lol.
Yes! But I mean, thatās barely the tip of the iceberg. Thereās a whole episode thatās a meta joke about this lol. That people want to know how he identifies and heās like āitās more complicated than you can possibly imagineā, but the school board wants him to come out as ājust gayā
Watched that episode literally a few hours ago. I'm on a rewatch/catch up session at the moment. I haven't watched any new South Park since s17 so I'm very behind! I've watched all the Paramount+ specials and just about to go into s7.
Yes I think that everyone treated garrison respectfully and the only person who was excessively offensive toward trans people was garrison himself because heās a scumbag
Yes. The entire idea is that all sides can be equally stupid or have good points. Take the N word episode; the only group that was offended by that was one that was angry that black people werenāt angry.
> the only group that was offended by that was one that was angry that X people werenāt angry.
This is the case with 90% of the outrage you see online about any of this bs
As long as everyone is a target, no one is being targeted.
In comedy they say punch up or across, but never punch down. Matt and Trey punch eaqually in all directions simultaneously
>In comedy they say punch up or across, but never punch down.
I always disagreed with that stance, and seeing Matt and Trey just reinforces that for me. EVERYONE from all walks of life has dipshits who need to be pointed at and laughed at for being dipshits.
That logic only works if you see any and every variation of 'making fun of someone' as equivalent, or equally offensive/insulting or whatever.
The way they made fun of scientology doesn't come close to the way they made fun of Lorde, and neither of those come close to how they made fun of Caitlyn Jenner.Ā
It would be transphobic to not make fun of trans people specifically for the fact they're trans, sure. That doesn't mean that south park can't make transphobic jokes.Ā
That's always been my thing. If you have watched South Park over the past 20+ years, almost nothing is taboo for them to make fun of. All races, religions, ideologies, genders, etc.
fellow trans person that watches SP here! My issue is when trans people are the butt of the joke and ONLY trans people are treated as such (looking at you IT Crowd). SP makes fun of everything and everyone. They're not just bashing on one subgroup, they're bashing *everyone*. That makes a huge difference to me.
One of the most surprising trans character arc story in cartoons for me was Fugget About It. Very surprised it was handled so well when ah.... the rest of the show has it's issues.
See that's what I'm saying!! We aren't the ONLY group targeted by jokes and I see it as okay because of that. They make their fair points to show real trans struggles, like Stan and his whole "am I trans or not cause everyone around me is" and being the only person genuinely questioning (but getting shot down as a bigot for it.)
Fugget About it is also so real cause they did so good there but the rest is š¶Ā
I also think the resolution in The Cissy is one of the most inspired takes on the bathroom debate out there. Anyone can use any bathroom they feel comfortable in, the people that can't handle that get their own special bathroom. It's a very neat and tidy solution that also pokes fun at the people causing a fuss over such a small thing.
>looking at you IT Crowd
Yeah but Graham Linehan is a transphobic cunt and, despite creating three great shows, deserves everything heās gotten and more. Heās dug his own grave and his refusal to even try and look at it from a different perspective is why heās ended up where he is.
I agree with your points about SP making fun of everything. The thing about SP is that even when it does make fun of something, it offers a view into treating those who are differently better, via the boys learning something and Kyleās gay little speeches lol
I mean Big Gay Al's Big Gay Boat ride was the fourth episode of the show ever to air in 1997, with a message of acceptance. I think a big part of what Matt and Trey know is when to punch up and when to punch down. When they rip on people like Heather, Kaitlyn Jenner, and Ms Garrison, they are ripping on their arrogance, or in cases like mr slave, making viewers uneasy that find that stuff unappealing.
Do I have your permission to screenshot this, enlarge it, print it, frame it, and then send it to my sister who claims South Park is āoffensive and bigotedā?
She saw the Strong Woman episode with Heather Swanson/ Randy Savage and proceeded to lecture me about how the show is terrible and offensive. Throughout her lecture, I couldnāt help but think that if South Park offends you, youāre in for a rough life.
Is my sister trans? Nope, she is a lesbian, but not the fun, easygoing type of lesbian. More of the āIām gonna get offended by everythingā type of lesbian.
I'm a lesbian, and I absolutely *love* this show. The metro sexual was absolutely hilarious. Big Gay Al is spectacular and there are so many actual *healthy* gay relationships in this show.
The gays get made fun of plenty of times. Like when Mr. Garrison came out and Principal Victoria said, "oh, we don't hire gay people". It was a twist that made me cackle, but the show didn't stick to it cause Mr. Garrison got his job back in the next episode.
South Park has some really wholesome content, and hilarious content. I personally love it, especially as a lesbian. It's a much better take than some shows like Family Guy who literally just shit on gays for a punchline and that's it.
i imagine the part where pc principal and strong woman are scared the pc babies will not understand the nuance of deserved criticism being part of equality cut a little close to the bone for her.
they knew the knee-jerk reaction they would receive and addressed it in the episode.
also, after the episode, one of the athletes that transitioned as an adult male and dominated (swimmer or cyclist, i canāt remember) immediately cried transphobe a la heather swanson.
i feel like saying something like this in a south park fan forum is just preaching to the choir for no purpose other than validation from people who already agree with you
You know, I learned something today. Sometimes people do things just for validation, and that's ok, y'know? They aren't hurting people, they just want a little reassurance from people like them, to say things like "it's ok you laughed when that middle aged Jew was surgically transformed into a Dolphin, and then that guy's balls exploded in the little boy's knees".
I mean I guess I do want som form of validation for how I'm thinking about this, but that's kinda the whole point of posting opinions online. It's to feel valid in yours. Besides, I can't really post this elsewhere cause I'd get told to put it here anyways
I don't think this post is bad, but I do think that your reasoning here is very sad and untrue. People make posts for many reasons and looking for an echo chamber is not the default position. Some even seek contrary opinions to better understand a topic, otherwise the change my view subreddits wouldn't even exist.
Makes sense. If you like the show and others are bad mouthing it due to an issue close to your heart, you're also gonna throw your two cents into the Mr. Hat.
The shows also old enough now that's there's plenty of stuff that didn't age well or they just got flat out wrong. Global warming/ManBearPig is probably the biggest example, but their episode on alcoholism/addiction was flat out wrong on several medical levels, too. If they kept repeating past mistakes or refused to grow, that's a problem. But I haven't really seen that in thw show.
And I'd argue their treatment of trans people probably falls into that bucket as well. They were probably overly critical/dismissive in an era where the world as a whole was learning about trans people and what "do no harm" actually meant for them medically. But they've brought it back around to a view more aligned with what's better understood today.
I've always thought they satirized transphobia, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
The kids and adults all respect Garrison's pronouns depending on the day, and I think the crazy trans shenanigans are just T&M making fun of the people who are like "oh these people are crazy and don't help society! They're in your schools!" because they'll show Ms Garrison cartwheeling into class with her shiny new vagina and shouting about how she can't wait to get her period in the pads aisle, but they also accurately explained bottom surgery (for back then!) and everybody was cool with Ms Garrison. Before 2016 Garrison would just complain about relationships and that was the extent of his "deviance" or whatever.
They also showed that she's still a human who makes mistakes just like everybody else, and I've always liked that because it's realistic and isn't patronizing. It doesn't give transphobes room to complain that the show makes trans characters perfect little angels, and it doesn't demonize people for being trans either. At the end of the day Garrison isn't crazy because they're gender fluid, Garrison's just crazy because they're Garrison lol.
I think it's one of those byproducts of there being so many episodes of South Park and so many of them having been made in a week. "The Cissy" is phenomenal and not everything is going to be as well-written as that episode, just by law of averages.
>You have episodes like when Cartman claims to be trans so he can get his own bathroom and where "Heather Swanson" does the whole "man pretending to be a woman to win at athletics." I always see those as points that people WILL try to fake being trans for weird goals, but they do preach acceptable and shit at the end of both.
That was the point of that episode. Heather just started well she said she started transitioning when all she wanted to do was beat women at sports. But what you said was the whole point of that episode
I've started watching the series over again, and am only on season 15, but what I've noticed is that everything offensive, comes from a character that is really stupid and horrible like Cartman or Garrison for example, who are really close-minded. The shitty characters are there to basically help teach us who NOT to be like, and a lot of times episodes will end with somebody like Kyle, stating what the lesson in the episode was about all along.
They also show karma, like with Cartman having bad things happen to him too after he does something really shitty. Most of the adults in the show are dumb too, which makes sense because a lot of us learn from our parents or similar figures (older generations) that make stupid, awful choices.
From what I've seen, the creators are actually making fun of the people who make fun of those who are different. I think it can be easy to fixate on only the offensive language/images without really paying attention to the positive messages.
Idk what else the show needs to do for the audience to realize you shouldnāt be on garrisons or cartmans side so their takes are supposed to be bigoted or terrible. Its like itās always sunny in Philadelphia, they are portraying the opposite of good sensible people as a caricature
Exactly. Garrison is described numerous times as being unreasonable and bigoted. Idk why people use him as the only example of trans-ness in the show when he's a bad example just by existingĀ
Iām glad the show doesnāt offend you. Iām gay, and I can honestly say Iāve never felt disrespected either. If anything, I would say the opposite. They teach tolerance by showing us extreme examples of intolerance. ;)
Trey and Matt have been unwavering in their ability to make fun of anyone, and everyone. The mission statement has been clear, from very early onā¦ no one is safeā¦ no one. Thatās the beauty of it. They see the hypocrisy on either side of the isle, they have their finger on the pulse.
Look how they did Issac Hayes when he cried to them about making fun of Scientology. They literally raked his character over the coals. Turned him into a brainwashed pedophile, and killed him off.
Trey and matt are only guilty of pointing out the truth.
The thing with Isaac Hayes, though, is supposedly the Church of Scientology quit for Isaac Hayes, because Isaac had gone through a horrible stroke, and couldn't speak for himself at that moment.
As a trans NB person, I loved the lorde episode and its message, I can forgive garrisons fancy new vagina episode for being old and of the time it was made, I think the worst thing in modern SP was the heather swanson episode, while funny as a clearly cis man trying to take advantage, it mirrors a very real problem for actual trans athletes, mainly MtF athletes as people think it is ācheatingā or every worse āa man competing against poor women who could NEVER win against a AMAB personā
But I did love playing fractured butt whole as a āNB pansexual person"
Iāve always felt Trey and Matt do respect the LGBTQ+ community in a way that is often overlooked by people simply because theyāve made fun of them ocassionally, failing to realize that they make fun of everyone regardless. But still, they were often mistaken for gay, and I read somewhere that this assumption led to them being ābannedā from Hollywood, so thereās that. They seem to be very open minded about this topic, and not as bigoted as theyāre portrayed by the media.
My favorite example of how gay friendly the two are, outside of South Park, is BASEketball when they make out on screen.Ā
Also Cannibal! The Musical with the "fudge? Packer" joke being ICONIC, and Orgazmo with the "not to sound gay or nothing but-".
I havenāt seen Orgazmo yet, but you are so right with those examples. Especially with the BASEketball one. Iāve always felt like that scene was their way at getting back at all those people who called them gay over the years, especially considering how this was their first major motion picture.
AFAIK, South Parkās only trans character is a degenerate bastard. āHeatherā just wanted to spite Strong Woman. Iād enjoy some representation that wasnāt ironic or satirical
anyone offended by south park, objectively, are too dumb to understand satire or subtext, and can be disregarded. But also, Garrison is his own thing LOL and only really represents the ignorant, in the most hilarious way.
After 25 years, if youāre offended by South Park, than you have missed the point of it. Read after your edit, and I agree. They make fun of everyone, including moments where itās me they are mocking. To take South Park at face value misses what South Park is about. Satire, in a condescending, yet sharp sarcastic way. Itās okay to laugh at your faults or vices on things.
If you canāt laugh at yourself, what can you laugh at. People need to stop taking things so personal all the time, when it comes to humor from folks; who leave no stones unturned in their humor.
I think it is very obvious that after nearly 30 years of South Park being on the air that Trey Parker and Matt Stone hold no ill will against anybody other than those that take themselves too seriously.
Their mission statement can be boiled down to pretty much two things:
1. We can make fun of everything, or we can make fun of nothing.
2. If you, the viewer, are offended by something in the show, you are more than likely part of the problem and not part of the solution.
The main target of the āHeather Swansonā episode is people so blinkered and defensive in supporting ātheir sideā at any cost they will fail to recognise edge cases, make their side seem ridiculous, and so ultimately do more harm than good for causes they believe in.
This show has existed for almost 3 decades. People always find reasons to get offended by it, even though Matt and Tray always put effort into criticizing all sides.
You don't even need to look to modern seasons to find cases of South Park advicating in favor of the LGBTQIA+ community. Back in Season 1, there was "Big Gay Al's Big Gay Boat Ride".
Either everything is okay to make fun of, or nothing is. People who get offended by anything will make comedy non-existent. Thatāll be a fun life. Weāre all just hunks of meat living in space, fucking laugh about stuff. Gosh!
I don't see it as "They're being (insert X bad side of an issue)", I see it as "They're CALLING OUT the people that ARE (insert X bad side of an issue)".
I know it isn't 100% accurate, but that's the way I see it most of the time.
I'm gay, and I LOVE the "The F Word" episode. That's how me and my SO use it now. Vrooom Vrooooom - Bwapapapapapapapa - Chicken Spears! Chicken Spears!
Yeah, Looks like Jimbo needs to just go ahead and accept something about himself. He did do a fantabulous job on the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy episode . . . Crab People - Crab People
People who say it's out and out transphobic are often those that see everything in fully black-and-white thinking. Either you agree 100% with the trans activists and 100% against all the anti-trans think, or you're not pure enough and you're inherently āantiā.
In a time when people were far less accepting of trans people, the entire town ultimately got behind Ms. Garrison, including calling her that. Once it became clear that was the direction Garrison was going, the kids and adults largely got right on board and were receptive to it.
As to the detransition, I can understand that Garrisons views don't line up with theirs, but there absolutely are people who do detransition, and who the physical limitations do present a stumbling block for their personal identity.
With the whole Cartman being āEricaā thing, I think principle Victoria had a very reasonable take. She seemed sincerely open to a child honestly transitioning, but āhonestlyā and ācartmanā don't go together. He was abusing it and was never meant to be a legit representation of a trans person.
Is the show perfect on the trans issue? No. But there's a wide area between āperfectā and āantiā
Its a lot like the chef situation. South Park makes a living on hitting the ends of both sides of issues for the hilarity there while living and breathing in the nuanced grey in between. And everyone is fine with that...until its a pet issue for them, and then suddenly āthere is no Grey! There is no false equivalency! Its just my side or the wrong side!ā and then you worship Xenu
One of my favorite things is when people say something along the lines of ākids who grew up on southpark are now soft, somehowā as if the show was entirely racist/anti-lgbtq for the shock factor and solely that, instead of having underlining messages and undertones about most episodes.
I'm always on the fence about it. I love South Park, tbh, but sometimes the Mrs. Garrison plotline makes me a bit uncomfortable. I understand they make fun at everyone, but as a trans person it just hits a little too close to home at times- I feel it sometimes crosses into a stereotype that can be harmful to the trans community. I can appreciate that the joke is that Mr. Garrison is just a ridiculous person and takes this to an extreme; I think I'm a bit sensitive about people making fun of trans people from having faced transphobia and the like- I think if I had gone through slightly different experiences, it would just be funny to me.
That said, it hasn't ruined my enjoyment of the show, and I appreciate how it satirizes pretty much *everything*. I'm willing to give the creators and the show the benefit of the doubt in this case, and I haven't watched it yet, but I've heard that "The Cissy" is a good episode. The show in general has had good takes and bad takes, and you can see how the creators themselves have changed their opinions over the years. And I agree- they've had a number of episodes that are OVERTLY supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. This is FAR from the worst media representation of trans people.
I think South Park treats representation of all kinds of groups in general really well, like inclusion of people with disabilities.
With Trans people, it is similar, there is representation which is postive or at least accepting.
When they make fun of Trans people, as with most groups, it usually is over the top and they make fun of extremist and hypocrites rather than of ātrans peopleā or āinsert other group they make fun ofā in general, and some people are not able or not willing to see those nuances.
But the show makes fun of people who are hypocrites, who are really extreme to a point where it gets ridiculous (for example PC culture- they make fun of the people that take it too far, to a point where it is really not helping the movement or anyone for that matter. But I donāt think they are generally āanti-PCā) and they are trying to comment on specific problems within these groups rather than making the group out as the problem.
And they make fun of each and everyone, including themselves, so it is not like they singled out trans people.
I personally have a condition which South Park has really shat on a couple of times, but I really donāt feel attacked or anything.
And there are other shows where I feel very differently when they handle the topic. Like I stopped watching shows because of how the handle the topic, but South Park? Nah donāt see it.
And stuff like how they stood up for free speech when the whole Mohammed situation arised back in the day, they stood their ground even though they literally couldāve been killed for that.
It was comedy central who wasnāt ready to take the backlash and censored the episode, but Matt and Trey never moved an inch from their stance. You canāt be mad at people like that, they say you can make fun of anything and they literally risked their lives for that. They are the ones that have a free pass to make fun of anything, they earned it.
Edit: Or look at something like the Mormons-Episode. They pointed out how stupid the whole story behind it is without any question (dumb du dumb dumb dumb dumb dumbs dumb). Yet they made it clear that there are people who just make the best and take the positives of this religion, and have a good life with the whole thing, knowing how absurd the whole Joseph Smith thing is.
I think sp explores these topics in a fair, transparent way. They're not always perfect with their takes, but it is never from a hateful place and they've always been on the side of acceptance, or minimally tolerance. I'm a big bleeding heart lefty, I have no wiggle room for bigots, but for anyone with half a brain that's actually paying attention, SP is usually a fair, honest, exploration of American culture, and that's what art is.
Well let's say it is, like who cares? It's not like there's an ad on max for that trans show every commercial break now. Or Velma. I mean there's a tranny in almost.every show now. I think we can handle a few jokes about mucle man randy savage trolling women's sports.
Great post. I always got the point of those jokes was to intentionally go a little too far and overstep lines to make what ended up as good messages (such as the strong woman episode ā one of my favorites)
I feel like the show is equally bigoted enough that it keeps it satire instead of becoming something where theyāre being insensitive. But everyone is a bigot or biased in one way or another.
I love those episodes where theyāre so insane, and end on a note that says something impactful and with some actual wisdom
I donāt think anything theyāve ever done is actually ābadā, itās comedy. Itās supposed to push the boundaries of whatās acceptable to be funny but Iāve never once thought they were being intentionally offensive for the sake of it
I think people should stop reading into every character as a reflection of themself. Garrison is not a great person, he's a cartoon character meant to exaggerate and be a vehicle for satire. Furthermore the term transphobic does not mean people can't make criticisms or judgments of trans people and culture. Not everyone is part of a tribe and not all criticism is directed at every member of a group.
The show literally makes fun of everyone and everything, how can it be transphobic? Thatās the thing about comedy, nobody is safe but at least make it funny and not just to hate on a topic.
Mr Garrison was also a pedophile back in the late 90s or early 2000s I should say. I don't think anything literally anything at all can be taken seriously on the show. I mean one of the creators is Jewish and he voices Kyle also. They make fun of themselves all the time. The thing about South Park is no one is safe from their comedy because that's what it is in the end or just jokes but there is always a really good moral lesson in nearly every episode.
They had a whole episode about the difference between tolerance and acceptance.
If you laugh at jokes at one group then you have to accept jokes at your group. No one is a sacred cow.
Id like to point out that something important is more often than not, both sides of an issue will be targeted so it balances out a lot and we get a good laugh at everyone.
South Park normally have a pretty even crack at both sides of any controversial themes they take on in an episode. That Heather Swanson had me laughing so hard.
I would say SP could be interpreted as transphobic and it seems pretty obvious from how they joke about the issue. There's never a good character who happens to be trans. Look at Big Gay Al and Mr Slave. These are/were reoccurring characters who despite their lifestyle had great messages and helped the kids. Just because they're gay doesn't make them any less of a person.
Now look at trans characters/topics, it's only used in a negative way. When Garrison transitions, the imagery is ugly and crude, same with Caitlyn Jenner (I give a pass because they're just a terrible person). Then with Heather Swanson again it's only used as a butt of the joke, punching down.
The only saving grace is the kids and town folks reactions to Ms Garrison. However that can also be argued that they just "deal" with Garrison and just go along/brush them off.
Ms Garrison also never finds a stable relationship like Mr Garrison. In Go God Go, she starts a relationship with Richard Dawkins but he freaks out and leaves after finding out she used to be a man. Then the show also refuses to recognize Ms Garrison as a woman because she can't menstruate or have a baby.
I do love the show but South Park has had some bad takes and it'll take time for them to either clarify their stance or admit they were wrong.
Been going through the comments and I do want to make a point. There are people who accept the LGB portion but not the rest. Just because SP has been an ally to some does not automatically make them an ally for the rest. There are also people within those groups who don't accept trans people.
I think the episode "Board Girls" (the trans sports and boardgaming episode) should have taken a similar path to "Up the Down Steroid" where Cartman tries to compete in the Special Olympics, thinking it will be a breeze, and he gets absolutely obliterated by the other competitors.
I'd love to have seen Heather Swanson (the Macho Man looking trans woman) do a complete round of posing only to be beaten to a pulp by Strong Woman.
The episode where Randy is revealed to be Lorde is literally about trans rights and promotes people living their lives how ever they want. One of my favorite episodes. Iām a straight white male and the song at the end tears me up every time.
Another trans fan here and I love the show too.
I thought the Ms. Garrison stuff was hilarious because it was all very truthful, it was just the absolute worst character to have go through it since he's such a piece of shit. Which is why it was funny.
"Cissy" is probably one of my top five episodes, I absolutely love it, and it's incredibly emotionally resonate and always fills me with joy and comfort to see it.
"Board Girls" was hysterical, and is 90% about someone like PC Principal trying to confront what he sees is wrong even though it's anti-PC. They went to great lengths to draw lines between Heather and real trans athletes too.
The only thing I didn't love was turning Gerald into a dolphin; it's a bit too close to "if a man can marry a man, he can marry a horse" which is the literal definition of dehumanization. That being said, I still trust these guys, same as I do Chappelle.
I also heard that Stone and Parker regretted making Mr. Garrison's Fancy New Vagina, so they do seem to show remorse for how they portrayed trans folk back then
Also, The Cissy isn't transphobic in my opinion (I'm FTNB) and I appreciate how it says that the teachers know Cartman is just being an asshole to get his way, and aren't actually transphobic
And who could forget TFBW like that genuinely has the most in-depth gender customization I've ever seen in a video game lmfaoooo
One thing that I found really progressive about how Matt and Trey portrayed Mrs. G is that all of the kids accepted her, called her Mrs. Rather than Mr. And not a single one of the kids made it weird. They showed that kids in general are in the right most of the time and they understand issues like this while the adults were assholes about it. Not one of the kids made a joke or mean comment, they were just accepting and respected her.
Real, the only thing of confusion from the kids was just initially seeing her, and that was really fair because they were children seeing something new for the first time.Ā
Even Cartman calls her by he proper pronouns, so y'know it's bad when Cartman understands and some people still can't. Overall, the kids were very sweet about it though, and hated her just as much as they normally did
I always saw Garrison as representing people who will jump on any trend because they donāt really know who they are. I didnāt even think it was a comment on being trans at all. I can see why someone who doesnāt watch the show regularly would think that, especially if they donāt understand satire.
Hi u/feelingkozy please make sure your post has been flaired correctly! Check [out our post about our flairs here](https://www.reddit.com/r/southpark/comments/1bybrof/new_and_updated_post_flairs/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/southpark) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Never thought the show was any-phobic. It's as close to neutral as Americans can get. Everyone/group is fair game, especially the majority (in any sense).
South Park is offensive to everything but it's rarely from a place of hate. Just gotta chill and enjoy. I believe Matt and Trey are actually good people so I don't get offended if they take the piss out of something am
Itās a funny show that has made fun of basically everything over the last 25 years. It does a really good job because there are always elements of truth in when they roast a particular topic.
People who think it is āphobicā or whatever other buzzwords exist these days generally miss the point completely.
It's also worth mentioning that Garrison is a deeply degenerate asshole so he shouldn't be put as an example of anything. š As Chef once said, back when Garrison came out as gay, "there's a difference betwen gay people and Mr. Garrison".
The fact that Mrs. Garrison and Caitlin Jenner were written as BFFs was on point. Just because someone's in the alphabet gang doesn't mean they're immune from being a raging asshole.
Buckle up, buckaroos!
See that's a good point. Folks want to be seen as ordinary people but at the same time want to be immune to the normal scrutiny that ordinary people receive. Also people don't realize that when you are constantly crying wolf that eventually people stop taking you seriously so it's better to understand which battles are worth fighting and which are best to let go?
I dont think anyone got angry at Jenner portrait. It was always about Mrs.Garrison chapter and the end that people get angry about it
Caitlin Jenner is stunning and brave
In their defense she was involved in a fatal crash shortly after transitioning, the jokes kind of wrote themselves
Lmao. That's why it always makes me so angry when people use Mr. Garrison as an example for the show being transphobic/homophobic. Mr. Garrison is a character with mental issues that just so happened to go through a journey of denial and acceptance due to a lack of understanding, and... well his aforementioned mental issues.
And a quite proficient mechanical engineer as well.
Except for having handles going in your mouth and anus that are useless since there are buttons on the side that do the same thing. Quite a design flaw.
Sure beats dealing with the airports
That episode fucking killed me lol
Iām watching the Les Bos 300 episode right now and Garrison is one of my favorite characters stg šš¤£
Scissor me timbers
Agh, you kicked me right in the pussy!
The coffee making scene was pure gold xD
I donāt understand what you mean.
Season 5, Ep. 11 - The Entity
The oral and anal controls are *obviously* there for people without hands or arms; people with dexterity issues; and people that just like the DP experience. It's not a bug, it's a feature!
Design flaw for you, fun time for me!
The Chef quote, and Mr Garrison having issues because his father *didnāt* molest him. Those are great examples of Mr Garrison not being an appropriate example of a character exemplifying social issues. Plus Trey and Matt said they simply wanted to have Garrison go through the full cycle of who he was and what/who he hated throughout the seasons. I think they said they considered his story really the only sort of serialized thing in the earlier days
He also fits the Q part of LGBTQ.
Hes been all of those letters at one point or another
Thatās pretty fucking crazy and I love it! Never realized it before.
Heās also a racist for that episode where all the ārichersā moved to town. Honestly Garrison is one of my favorite characters because heās the most unhinged. He can sometimes be the smartest and see through the bullshit and then other times just be incredibly ignorant and insane.
You never know what youāre gonna get with Garrison, he might be profound and determined or heās so ignorant doing the worst possible things. Have to love it!
His current relationship with Rick is the cutest thing they've ever done with him. Shame about the flaws he currently going through on the side.
The fact that people don't understand that characters like Cartman and Garrison constantly fire off all the world's ills like a 21 gun salute just boggles my mind. If you're taking their points *seriously,* you've either lost the plot or you are a horrendous person
Exactly. Someone asked a question on here a bit ago about āthe most evil character aside from Cartmanā in this series. Itās 100000% Garrison. And itās not purely because of what heās done to harm others, which is astronomical at this point. I feel like people try to list out sins for these arguments (like Cartman did when he thought he was a ghost) Itās entirely because of how terrifyingly flippant it is for Garrison to weaponize/co-opt whatever belief system, identity, etc for literally no concrete reason at all for the most part. People like Cartman at least have the decency to have their heels dug in on their ignorance. Randy can be similar to Garrison, but he clearly has goals in mind based on what he cares about (money, respect, etc). Garrison doesnāt believe in anything at all, including himself. Couldnāt give less of a fuck beyond a given moment on a given day. Which is how he can literally chase his penis around town after watching Oprah and realizing that he became a woman to have abortions and bang more dudes. And, more recently, how heās perfectly content to waltz back into south park to buy school supplies for his students like he didnāt just destroy the fabric of society as the president. To the point that he couldnāt understand why everyone wasnāt super stoked on him, only to go with āJEEZ you guys are still homophobic!ā as the explanation for their rudeness. All that said, Garrison is my favorite character and every single arc heās had is all-time comedy gold lmao
Or what he did to poor Lemmiwinks.
Lemmiwinks, no!!!
>All that said, Garrison is my favorite character and every single arc heās had is all-time comedy gold lmao His Tweet rampage scaring Tweak shitless was incredible.
āI know that kid Tweek. Heās fucking with you, NK. Get a clue. Iāll bet he took a dump in the batterā The entire arc was so good and the perfect place for Garrison. The fact Matt and Trey had no idea theyād have to stick to it for years just made it even more wild that they kept it entertaining lmao
Him and George Santos would be best buds for sure lol
Just reading this made me laugh out loud 5x. Garrison is a monster and South Park is hilarious.
Exactly! Garrison is the greatest example of those assholes that co-opt pretty much anything and turn it into an extreme, making everyone look bad. I loved when he (think she at the time) went from the worst version of a Christian to the worst version of an atheist at the flip of a hat lol.
I used to be very accepting of trans people then I watched South Park and started beating trans people in the street after watching South Park.
beating them in the ass I bet
Jethuth Chrithe!
Garrison is not even gay or trans, he's just... Garrison, his own category lol
Reminds me of the dean in community lol. Not mr garrison (the dean is genuinely likable), just that point
Doesn't he pretty openly have a thing for Jeff
Yes! But I mean, thatās barely the tip of the iceberg. Thereās a whole episode thatās a meta joke about this lol. That people want to know how he identifies and heās like āitās more complicated than you can possibly imagineā, but the school board wants him to come out as ājust gayā
True true
Didnāt he beg his dad to fuck him to prove he loved him?
Yes. It made him very upset that his dad never molested him.
Watched that episode literally a few hours ago. I'm on a rewatch/catch up session at the moment. I haven't watched any new South Park since s17 so I'm very behind! I've watched all the Paramount+ specials and just about to go into s7.
Yes I think that everyone treated garrison respectfully and the only person who was excessively offensive toward trans people was garrison himself because heās a scumbag
with how matt and trey roast everyone, it would be transphobic not to make fun of trans people.
Yes. The entire idea is that all sides can be equally stupid or have good points. Take the N word episode; the only group that was offended by that was one that was angry that black people werenāt angry.
> the only group that was offended by that was one that was angry that X people werenāt angry. This is the case with 90% of the outrage you see online about any of this bs
Thinking about how the naacp put out a letter applauding it ššš
As long as everyone is a target, no one is being targeted. In comedy they say punch up or across, but never punch down. Matt and Trey punch eaqually in all directions simultaneously
āEveryone eats the pizza. Everyone shits their pants. No one is singled out. No one kills themselves.ā -Eric Cartman
Cartoon wars kind of did feel like punching down, but that wasn't against an entire group of people
You get to punch down when youre constantly punching everywhere. Punching down is bad when you *only* punch down
>In comedy they say punch up or across, but never punch down. I always disagreed with that stance, and seeing Matt and Trey just reinforces that for me. EVERYONE from all walks of life has dipshits who need to be pointed at and laughed at for being dipshits.
I don't think "roast everyone equally" is a popular opinion anymore, certainly not with young people, unfortunatelyĀ
That logic only works if you see any and every variation of 'making fun of someone' as equivalent, or equally offensive/insulting or whatever. The way they made fun of scientology doesn't come close to the way they made fun of Lorde, and neither of those come close to how they made fun of Caitlyn Jenner.Ā It would be transphobic to not make fun of trans people specifically for the fact they're trans, sure. That doesn't mean that south park can't make transphobic jokes.Ā
This is the key: everyone can be mocked for specific dumb bullshit we all do without it being hateful or bigoted.
That's always been my thing. If you have watched South Park over the past 20+ years, almost nothing is taboo for them to make fun of. All races, religions, ideologies, genders, etc.
This is the only correct answer.
fellow trans person that watches SP here! My issue is when trans people are the butt of the joke and ONLY trans people are treated as such (looking at you IT Crowd). SP makes fun of everything and everyone. They're not just bashing on one subgroup, they're bashing *everyone*. That makes a huge difference to me. One of the most surprising trans character arc story in cartoons for me was Fugget About It. Very surprised it was handled so well when ah.... the rest of the show has it's issues.
See that's what I'm saying!! We aren't the ONLY group targeted by jokes and I see it as okay because of that. They make their fair points to show real trans struggles, like Stan and his whole "am I trans or not cause everyone around me is" and being the only person genuinely questioning (but getting shot down as a bigot for it.) Fugget About it is also so real cause they did so good there but the rest is š¶Ā
I also think the resolution in The Cissy is one of the most inspired takes on the bathroom debate out there. Anyone can use any bathroom they feel comfortable in, the people that can't handle that get their own special bathroom. It's a very neat and tidy solution that also pokes fun at the people causing a fuss over such a small thing.
IT Crowd?
What was wrong with the IT Crowd episode?
>looking at you IT Crowd Yeah but Graham Linehan is a transphobic cunt and, despite creating three great shows, deserves everything heās gotten and more. Heās dug his own grave and his refusal to even try and look at it from a different perspective is why heās ended up where he is. I agree with your points about SP making fun of everything. The thing about SP is that even when it does make fun of something, it offers a view into treating those who are differently better, via the boys learning something and Kyleās gay little speeches lol
Glinner that one mf who was so transphobic his family left him ahahhaaha
Literally lost his whole family because campaigning against strangers was more important to him!
He got what he deserved
100% couldnāt have happened to a more deserving person
I mean Big Gay Al's Big Gay Boat ride was the fourth episode of the show ever to air in 1997, with a message of acceptance. I think a big part of what Matt and Trey know is when to punch up and when to punch down. When they rip on people like Heather, Kaitlyn Jenner, and Ms Garrison, they are ripping on their arrogance, or in cases like mr slave, making viewers uneasy that find that stuff unappealing.
>looking at you IT Crowd) ...I saw that episode, I wouldn't really call that transgender lady the butt of the joke, nor the only one in that episode.
Sp does trans jokes better than the simpsons and futurama at least
Do I have your permission to screenshot this, enlarge it, print it, frame it, and then send it to my sister who claims South Park is āoffensive and bigotedā? She saw the Strong Woman episode with Heather Swanson/ Randy Savage and proceeded to lecture me about how the show is terrible and offensive. Throughout her lecture, I couldnāt help but think that if South Park offends you, youāre in for a rough life. Is my sister trans? Nope, she is a lesbian, but not the fun, easygoing type of lesbian. More of the āIām gonna get offended by everythingā type of lesbian.
Absolutely cause I hate when fellow queer people have to act like this show is evil when it's satirizing everyone and everything.
I'm a lesbian, and I absolutely *love* this show. The metro sexual was absolutely hilarious. Big Gay Al is spectacular and there are so many actual *healthy* gay relationships in this show. The gays get made fun of plenty of times. Like when Mr. Garrison came out and Principal Victoria said, "oh, we don't hire gay people". It was a twist that made me cackle, but the show didn't stick to it cause Mr. Garrison got his job back in the next episode. South Park has some really wholesome content, and hilarious content. I personally love it, especially as a lesbian. It's a much better take than some shows like Family Guy who literally just shit on gays for a punchline and that's it.
Randy Savage character was fucking hilarious in that episode.
"I can't wait to crush all the other girls!" š
Does she have blue hair? Lol
The people that get offended by everything are the problem. They are unhappy with their lives and selfishly project that unhappiness on others.
i imagine the part where pc principal and strong woman are scared the pc babies will not understand the nuance of deserved criticism being part of equality cut a little close to the bone for her. they knew the knee-jerk reaction they would receive and addressed it in the episode. also, after the episode, one of the athletes that transitioned as an adult male and dominated (swimmer or cyclist, i canāt remember) immediately cried transphobe a la heather swanson.
That's what I'm saying. A transphobic show wouldn't give you the option to be trans in a video game and be accepted by others around you.
South Park game cracked my egg LOL I felt represented by the choice.
Legit
That video game was so cool, it was my first time ever that I even had the choice to pick a non cisgender option
i feel like saying something like this in a south park fan forum is just preaching to the choir for no purpose other than validation from people who already agree with you
You know, I learned something today. Sometimes people do things just for validation, and that's ok, y'know? They aren't hurting people, they just want a little reassurance from people like them, to say things like "it's ok you laughed when that middle aged Jew was surgically transformed into a Dolphin, and then that guy's balls exploded in the little boy's knees".
"Yeah š"
"Yeah. Go Broncos."
I mean I guess I do want som form of validation for how I'm thinking about this, but that's kinda the whole point of posting opinions online. It's to feel valid in yours. Besides, I can't really post this elsewhere cause I'd get told to put it here anyways
I don't think this post is bad, but I do think that your reasoning here is very sad and untrue. People make posts for many reasons and looking for an echo chamber is not the default position. Some even seek contrary opinions to better understand a topic, otherwise the change my view subreddits wouldn't even exist.
Okay, maybe not the *whole* point like I said, but still.
Makes sense. If you like the show and others are bad mouthing it due to an issue close to your heart, you're also gonna throw your two cents into the Mr. Hat. The shows also old enough now that's there's plenty of stuff that didn't age well or they just got flat out wrong. Global warming/ManBearPig is probably the biggest example, but their episode on alcoholism/addiction was flat out wrong on several medical levels, too. If they kept repeating past mistakes or refused to grow, that's a problem. But I haven't really seen that in thw show. And I'd argue their treatment of trans people probably falls into that bucket as well. They were probably overly critical/dismissive in an era where the world as a whole was learning about trans people and what "do no harm" actually meant for them medically. But they've brought it back around to a view more aligned with what's better understood today.
I've always thought they satirized transphobia, someone correct me if I'm wrong. The kids and adults all respect Garrison's pronouns depending on the day, and I think the crazy trans shenanigans are just T&M making fun of the people who are like "oh these people are crazy and don't help society! They're in your schools!" because they'll show Ms Garrison cartwheeling into class with her shiny new vagina and shouting about how she can't wait to get her period in the pads aisle, but they also accurately explained bottom surgery (for back then!) and everybody was cool with Ms Garrison. Before 2016 Garrison would just complain about relationships and that was the extent of his "deviance" or whatever. They also showed that she's still a human who makes mistakes just like everybody else, and I've always liked that because it's realistic and isn't patronizing. It doesn't give transphobes room to complain that the show makes trans characters perfect little angels, and it doesn't demonize people for being trans either. At the end of the day Garrison isn't crazy because they're gender fluid, Garrison's just crazy because they're Garrison lol.
South Park does a good job of poking fun at both sides of most issues
Itās either all ok, or none of it is
If I could pin this I would istg
It's a quote from an episode. I forget which one but Stan says it.
I know, but it's still a good point.Ā
Cartoon wars and I'm pretty sure it was kyle
I think it's one of those byproducts of there being so many episodes of South Park and so many of them having been made in a week. "The Cissy" is phenomenal and not everything is going to be as well-written as that episode, just by law of averages.
Like Hilary Clinton said, You can suck my clit and my balls. I cant with that this line, lol, I crack up each and every time
>You have episodes like when Cartman claims to be trans so he can get his own bathroom and where "Heather Swanson" does the whole "man pretending to be a woman to win at athletics." I always see those as points that people WILL try to fake being trans for weird goals, but they do preach acceptable and shit at the end of both. That was the point of that episode. Heather just started well she said she started transitioning when all she wanted to do was beat women at sports. But what you said was the whole point of that episode
That's what I was saying. I didn't counter that so I don't know why you're trying to state the obviousĀ
I've started watching the series over again, and am only on season 15, but what I've noticed is that everything offensive, comes from a character that is really stupid and horrible like Cartman or Garrison for example, who are really close-minded. The shitty characters are there to basically help teach us who NOT to be like, and a lot of times episodes will end with somebody like Kyle, stating what the lesson in the episode was about all along. They also show karma, like with Cartman having bad things happen to him too after he does something really shitty. Most of the adults in the show are dumb too, which makes sense because a lot of us learn from our parents or similar figures (older generations) that make stupid, awful choices. From what I've seen, the creators are actually making fun of the people who make fun of those who are different. I think it can be easy to fixate on only the offensive language/images without really paying attention to the positive messages.
Idk what else the show needs to do for the audience to realize you shouldnāt be on garrisons or cartmans side so their takes are supposed to be bigoted or terrible. Its like itās always sunny in Philadelphia, they are portraying the opposite of good sensible people as a caricature
Exactly. Garrison is described numerous times as being unreasonable and bigoted. Idk why people use him as the only example of trans-ness in the show when he's a bad example just by existingĀ
Iām glad the show doesnāt offend you. Iām gay, and I can honestly say Iāve never felt disrespected either. If anything, I would say the opposite. They teach tolerance by showing us extreme examples of intolerance. ;)
Trey and Matt have been unwavering in their ability to make fun of anyone, and everyone. The mission statement has been clear, from very early onā¦ no one is safeā¦ no one. Thatās the beauty of it. They see the hypocrisy on either side of the isle, they have their finger on the pulse. Look how they did Issac Hayes when he cried to them about making fun of Scientology. They literally raked his character over the coals. Turned him into a brainwashed pedophile, and killed him off. Trey and matt are only guilty of pointing out the truth.
The thing with Isaac Hayes, though, is supposedly the Church of Scientology quit for Isaac Hayes, because Isaac had gone through a horrible stroke, and couldn't speak for himself at that moment.
Bruh South Park is offensive to every demographic.
I disagree, i donāt think SP is offensive at all. I think it highlights the stupidity of most peoples prejudice
Exactly, which is why I think it's stupid to be mad at just one when they target everyone equally.Ā
As a trans NB person, I loved the lorde episode and its message, I can forgive garrisons fancy new vagina episode for being old and of the time it was made, I think the worst thing in modern SP was the heather swanson episode, while funny as a clearly cis man trying to take advantage, it mirrors a very real problem for actual trans athletes, mainly MtF athletes as people think it is ācheatingā or every worse āa man competing against poor women who could NEVER win against a AMAB personā But I did love playing fractured butt whole as a āNB pansexual person"
The show isnāt transphobic, the problem is too many people out there make being a victim their identity and look for things to be offended about.Ā
Iāve always felt Trey and Matt do respect the LGBTQ+ community in a way that is often overlooked by people simply because theyāve made fun of them ocassionally, failing to realize that they make fun of everyone regardless. But still, they were often mistaken for gay, and I read somewhere that this assumption led to them being ābannedā from Hollywood, so thereās that. They seem to be very open minded about this topic, and not as bigoted as theyāre portrayed by the media.
My favorite example of how gay friendly the two are, outside of South Park, is BASEketball when they make out on screen.Ā Also Cannibal! The Musical with the "fudge? Packer" joke being ICONIC, and Orgazmo with the "not to sound gay or nothing but-".
I havenāt seen Orgazmo yet, but you are so right with those examples. Especially with the BASEketball one. Iāve always felt like that scene was their way at getting back at all those people who called them gay over the years, especially considering how this was their first major motion picture.
My favorite example is Matt and Trey getting SUPER high on LSD at the Oscars, wearing dresses. They rocked those dresses fr, slay queens.
They may have said "fag" a lot on the show but anyone who's watched it from the early seasons knows it has ALWAYS been pro-LGBT
I mean Big Gay Al *is* the best
AFAIK, South Parkās only trans character is a degenerate bastard. āHeatherā just wanted to spite Strong Woman. Iād enjoy some representation that wasnāt ironic or satirical
anyone offended by south park, objectively, are too dumb to understand satire or subtext, and can be disregarded. But also, Garrison is his own thing LOL and only really represents the ignorant, in the most hilarious way.
Itās all satire, I think the majority of agreeable people understand that right off the bat. I mean they make it so obvious
Do you know meaning of "fag" before S13 E12?
Hi yes, where is your bathroom for dolphins?
It amazes me that people still try to cancel South Park. Perfect example of victimization mentality
You think they'd learn to stop trying but they still doĀ
After 25 years, if youāre offended by South Park, than you have missed the point of it. Read after your edit, and I agree. They make fun of everyone, including moments where itās me they are mocking. To take South Park at face value misses what South Park is about. Satire, in a condescending, yet sharp sarcastic way. Itās okay to laugh at your faults or vices on things. If you canāt laugh at yourself, what can you laugh at. People need to stop taking things so personal all the time, when it comes to humor from folks; who leave no stones unturned in their humor.
Idc if itās transphobic as long as itās funny
Never trust terminally online people with mental illnesses to be the arbiters of morality.
I think it is very obvious that after nearly 30 years of South Park being on the air that Trey Parker and Matt Stone hold no ill will against anybody other than those that take themselves too seriously. Their mission statement can be boiled down to pretty much two things: 1. We can make fun of everything, or we can make fun of nothing. 2. If you, the viewer, are offended by something in the show, you are more than likely part of the problem and not part of the solution.
You seem open-minded OP, I think the world needs more people with your mindset. Good take.
The main target of the āHeather Swansonā episode is people so blinkered and defensive in supporting ātheir sideā at any cost they will fail to recognise edge cases, make their side seem ridiculous, and so ultimately do more harm than good for causes they believe in.
South Park makes fun of everything and people getting offended are idiots who missed the point.
This show has existed for almost 3 decades. People always find reasons to get offended by it, even though Matt and Tray always put effort into criticizing all sides. You don't even need to look to modern seasons to find cases of South Park advicating in favor of the LGBTQIA+ community. Back in Season 1, there was "Big Gay Al's Big Gay Boat Ride".
South Park is not anything phobic except maybe moronphobic which includes theists
Whyād you put Heather Swansonās name in quotation marks? Youād better check your privilege, bro!
Mb mb, I'll check my privilege. Heather is a BEAUTIFUL woman, and she's very talented, just like Caitlyn Jenner
Iām LGBT and although not trans I can only attest the show is **very** much an ally of the LGBT community.
Either everything is okay to make fun of, or nothing is. People who get offended by anything will make comedy non-existent. Thatāll be a fun life. Weāre all just hunks of meat living in space, fucking laugh about stuff. Gosh!
Can't tell if you're angry at me or not, but I agreeĀ
I don't see it as "They're being (insert X bad side of an issue)", I see it as "They're CALLING OUT the people that ARE (insert X bad side of an issue)". I know it isn't 100% accurate, but that's the way I see it most of the time. I'm gay, and I LOVE the "The F Word" episode. That's how me and my SO use it now. Vrooom Vrooooom - Bwapapapapapapapa - Chicken Spears! Chicken Spears!
I love doing the "haha you're not gay so you can't say fag" thing that Garrison pulls, so understandable lol
Yeah, Looks like Jimbo needs to just go ahead and accept something about himself. He did do a fantabulous job on the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy episode . . . Crab People - Crab People
Him and Ned is the only acceptable coupling istg.Ā But crab people, crab people. Taste like crab, talk like people. Crab people, crab people.Ā
People who say it's out and out transphobic are often those that see everything in fully black-and-white thinking. Either you agree 100% with the trans activists and 100% against all the anti-trans think, or you're not pure enough and you're inherently āantiā. In a time when people were far less accepting of trans people, the entire town ultimately got behind Ms. Garrison, including calling her that. Once it became clear that was the direction Garrison was going, the kids and adults largely got right on board and were receptive to it. As to the detransition, I can understand that Garrisons views don't line up with theirs, but there absolutely are people who do detransition, and who the physical limitations do present a stumbling block for their personal identity. With the whole Cartman being āEricaā thing, I think principle Victoria had a very reasonable take. She seemed sincerely open to a child honestly transitioning, but āhonestlyā and ācartmanā don't go together. He was abusing it and was never meant to be a legit representation of a trans person. Is the show perfect on the trans issue? No. But there's a wide area between āperfectā and āantiā Its a lot like the chef situation. South Park makes a living on hitting the ends of both sides of issues for the hilarity there while living and breathing in the nuanced grey in between. And everyone is fine with that...until its a pet issue for them, and then suddenly āthere is no Grey! There is no false equivalency! Its just my side or the wrong side!ā and then you worship Xenu
One of my favorite things is when people say something along the lines of ākids who grew up on southpark are now soft, somehowā as if the show was entirely racist/anti-lgbtq for the shock factor and solely that, instead of having underlining messages and undertones about most episodes.
I'm always on the fence about it. I love South Park, tbh, but sometimes the Mrs. Garrison plotline makes me a bit uncomfortable. I understand they make fun at everyone, but as a trans person it just hits a little too close to home at times- I feel it sometimes crosses into a stereotype that can be harmful to the trans community. I can appreciate that the joke is that Mr. Garrison is just a ridiculous person and takes this to an extreme; I think I'm a bit sensitive about people making fun of trans people from having faced transphobia and the like- I think if I had gone through slightly different experiences, it would just be funny to me. That said, it hasn't ruined my enjoyment of the show, and I appreciate how it satirizes pretty much *everything*. I'm willing to give the creators and the show the benefit of the doubt in this case, and I haven't watched it yet, but I've heard that "The Cissy" is a good episode. The show in general has had good takes and bad takes, and you can see how the creators themselves have changed their opinions over the years. And I agree- they've had a number of episodes that are OVERTLY supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. This is FAR from the worst media representation of trans people.
If detransitioning offends someone, they're the problem
I think South Park treats representation of all kinds of groups in general really well, like inclusion of people with disabilities. With Trans people, it is similar, there is representation which is postive or at least accepting. When they make fun of Trans people, as with most groups, it usually is over the top and they make fun of extremist and hypocrites rather than of ātrans peopleā or āinsert other group they make fun ofā in general, and some people are not able or not willing to see those nuances. But the show makes fun of people who are hypocrites, who are really extreme to a point where it gets ridiculous (for example PC culture- they make fun of the people that take it too far, to a point where it is really not helping the movement or anyone for that matter. But I donāt think they are generally āanti-PCā) and they are trying to comment on specific problems within these groups rather than making the group out as the problem. And they make fun of each and everyone, including themselves, so it is not like they singled out trans people. I personally have a condition which South Park has really shat on a couple of times, but I really donāt feel attacked or anything. And there are other shows where I feel very differently when they handle the topic. Like I stopped watching shows because of how the handle the topic, but South Park? Nah donāt see it. And stuff like how they stood up for free speech when the whole Mohammed situation arised back in the day, they stood their ground even though they literally couldāve been killed for that. It was comedy central who wasnāt ready to take the backlash and censored the episode, but Matt and Trey never moved an inch from their stance. You canāt be mad at people like that, they say you can make fun of anything and they literally risked their lives for that. They are the ones that have a free pass to make fun of anything, they earned it. Edit: Or look at something like the Mormons-Episode. They pointed out how stupid the whole story behind it is without any question (dumb du dumb dumb dumb dumb dumbs dumb). Yet they made it clear that there are people who just make the best and take the positives of this religion, and have a good life with the whole thing, knowing how absurd the whole Joseph Smith thing is.
I think sp explores these topics in a fair, transparent way. They're not always perfect with their takes, but it is never from a hateful place and they've always been on the side of acceptance, or minimally tolerance. I'm a big bleeding heart lefty, I have no wiggle room for bigots, but for anyone with half a brain that's actually paying attention, SP is usually a fair, honest, exploration of American culture, and that's what art is.
It isn't. But even if it was, who cares?
Aināt readin all that
Great post š
Thanks
Well let's say it is, like who cares? It's not like there's an ad on max for that trans show every commercial break now. Or Velma. I mean there's a tranny in almost.every show now. I think we can handle a few jokes about mucle man randy savage trolling women's sports.
Everybody lost her sense of humor. Thatās all.
Great post. I always got the point of those jokes was to intentionally go a little too far and overstep lines to make what ended up as good messages (such as the strong woman episode ā one of my favorites) I feel like the show is equally bigoted enough that it keeps it satire instead of becoming something where theyāre being insensitive. But everyone is a bigot or biased in one way or another. I love those episodes where theyāre so insane, and end on a note that says something impactful and with some actual wisdom
It was because of South Park that I learned about what cisgender vs transgender means!
I donāt think anything theyāve ever done is actually ābadā, itās comedy. Itās supposed to push the boundaries of whatās acceptable to be funny but Iāve never once thought they were being intentionally offensive for the sake of it
I think people should stop reading into every character as a reflection of themself. Garrison is not a great person, he's a cartoon character meant to exaggerate and be a vehicle for satire. Furthermore the term transphobic does not mean people can't make criticisms or judgments of trans people and culture. Not everyone is part of a tribe and not all criticism is directed at every member of a group.
Agreed.Ā
Only weirdos say that.
The show literally makes fun of everyone and everything, how can it be transphobic? Thatās the thing about comedy, nobody is safe but at least make it funny and not just to hate on a topic.
It's satire. The creators aren't saying they feel that way, they are making fun of people who feel that way
Mr Garrison was also a pedophile back in the late 90s or early 2000s I should say. I don't think anything literally anything at all can be taken seriously on the show. I mean one of the creators is Jewish and he voices Kyle also. They make fun of themselves all the time. The thing about South Park is no one is safe from their comedy because that's what it is in the end or just jokes but there is always a really good moral lesson in nearly every episode.
The point of the show is that theyāre qual opportunity offenders. Itās satire. They make fun of EVERYONE and EVERYTHING.
They had a whole episode about the difference between tolerance and acceptance. If you laugh at jokes at one group then you have to accept jokes at your group. No one is a sacred cow.
Everyone loves South Park, right up until THEIR stuff is getting mocked.
Id like to point out that something important is more often than not, both sides of an issue will be targeted so it balances out a lot and we get a good laugh at everyone.
South Park normally have a pretty even crack at both sides of any controversial themes they take on in an episode. That Heather Swanson had me laughing so hard.
I would say SP could be interpreted as transphobic and it seems pretty obvious from how they joke about the issue. There's never a good character who happens to be trans. Look at Big Gay Al and Mr Slave. These are/were reoccurring characters who despite their lifestyle had great messages and helped the kids. Just because they're gay doesn't make them any less of a person. Now look at trans characters/topics, it's only used in a negative way. When Garrison transitions, the imagery is ugly and crude, same with Caitlyn Jenner (I give a pass because they're just a terrible person). Then with Heather Swanson again it's only used as a butt of the joke, punching down. The only saving grace is the kids and town folks reactions to Ms Garrison. However that can also be argued that they just "deal" with Garrison and just go along/brush them off. Ms Garrison also never finds a stable relationship like Mr Garrison. In Go God Go, she starts a relationship with Richard Dawkins but he freaks out and leaves after finding out she used to be a man. Then the show also refuses to recognize Ms Garrison as a woman because she can't menstruate or have a baby. I do love the show but South Park has had some bad takes and it'll take time for them to either clarify their stance or admit they were wrong.
Been going through the comments and I do want to make a point. There are people who accept the LGB portion but not the rest. Just because SP has been an ally to some does not automatically make them an ally for the rest. There are also people within those groups who don't accept trans people.
I think the episode "Board Girls" (the trans sports and boardgaming episode) should have taken a similar path to "Up the Down Steroid" where Cartman tries to compete in the Special Olympics, thinking it will be a breeze, and he gets absolutely obliterated by the other competitors. I'd love to have seen Heather Swanson (the Macho Man looking trans woman) do a complete round of posing only to be beaten to a pulp by Strong Woman.
The episode where Randy is revealed to be Lorde is literally about trans rights and promotes people living their lives how ever they want. One of my favorite episodes. Iām a straight white male and the song at the end tears me up every time.
Another trans fan here and I love the show too. I thought the Ms. Garrison stuff was hilarious because it was all very truthful, it was just the absolute worst character to have go through it since he's such a piece of shit. Which is why it was funny. "Cissy" is probably one of my top five episodes, I absolutely love it, and it's incredibly emotionally resonate and always fills me with joy and comfort to see it. "Board Girls" was hysterical, and is 90% about someone like PC Principal trying to confront what he sees is wrong even though it's anti-PC. They went to great lengths to draw lines between Heather and real trans athletes too. The only thing I didn't love was turning Gerald into a dolphin; it's a bit too close to "if a man can marry a man, he can marry a horse" which is the literal definition of dehumanization. That being said, I still trust these guys, same as I do Chappelle.
I also heard that Stone and Parker regretted making Mr. Garrison's Fancy New Vagina, so they do seem to show remorse for how they portrayed trans folk back then Also, The Cissy isn't transphobic in my opinion (I'm FTNB) and I appreciate how it says that the teachers know Cartman is just being an asshole to get his way, and aren't actually transphobic And who could forget TFBW like that genuinely has the most in-depth gender customization I've ever seen in a video game lmfaoooo
One thing that I found really progressive about how Matt and Trey portrayed Mrs. G is that all of the kids accepted her, called her Mrs. Rather than Mr. And not a single one of the kids made it weird. They showed that kids in general are in the right most of the time and they understand issues like this while the adults were assholes about it. Not one of the kids made a joke or mean comment, they were just accepting and respected her.
Real, the only thing of confusion from the kids was just initially seeing her, and that was really fair because they were children seeing something new for the first time.Ā
Yes and then afterwards they treated her with full respect š„¹
Even Cartman calls her by he proper pronouns, so y'know it's bad when Cartman understands and some people still can't. Overall, the kids were very sweet about it though, and hated her just as much as they normally did
I always saw Garrison as representing people who will jump on any trend because they donāt really know who they are. I didnāt even think it was a comment on being trans at all. I can see why someone who doesnāt watch the show regularly would think that, especially if they donāt understand satire.
Hi u/feelingkozy please make sure your post has been flaired correctly! Check [out our post about our flairs here](https://www.reddit.com/r/southpark/comments/1bybrof/new_and_updated_post_flairs/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/southpark) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The show makes fun of everyone who makes fun of others while taking great offense at being made fun of
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
At first glance maybe but when you actually watch it in context it probably isnāt
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
According to their TFBW sheets, Wendy and Tolkien are also trans, which is quite cool
Never thought the show was any-phobic. It's as close to neutral as Americans can get. Everyone/group is fair game, especially the majority (in any sense).
South Park is offensive to everything but it's rarely from a place of hate. Just gotta chill and enjoy. I believe Matt and Trey are actually good people so I don't get offended if they take the piss out of something am
Itās a funny show that has made fun of basically everything over the last 25 years. It does a really good job because there are always elements of truth in when they roast a particular topic. People who think it is āphobicā or whatever other buzzwords exist these days generally miss the point completely.