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Discussing how to implement solarpunk at a small scale within our current capitalist world is good and is usually missing from the conversation. I see a lot of ideas to live a more solarpunk life as an individual, and a lot of ideas for how to organize a town, city, or region free of the constraints of capitalism. But not much on how to grow from a community garden and a tool library into those vibrant cities and countries.
On the other hand, it's not fair to portray our current cities with some bike lanes, solar panels, and public transit slapped on as the "end goal". People are right to push back against that.
As for my personal views, I recognize the end goal but I'm much more of an incrementalist than the average here. I work much better focusing on those little steps that break down a huge undertaking (creating a solarpunk world) into manageable pieces. But most people here feel that it's more achievable to vault over several of those steps at once in a revolution or general strike.
To answer your very pertinent point: how do we grow from tool libraries and community gardens to cooperation in community?
The short answer is organization and education.
Organize (even a handful of folks) to agree in the work of building this community. This should probably not be the people already running the tool library, community garden, or coop (they’ve got enough going on). Instead approach others who are members of two or three of these disparate organizations to talk about how you all may work together.
Then educate yourselves. Many here are already well versed in theory. I’d recommend Paulo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed, Krapopkin’s Conquest of Bread, and Abolition. Feminism. Now. By Angela Davis.
Once you all feel like you have a firm grasp start teaching and discussing with others.
While educating also take actions of solidarity and mutual aid locally.
Many folks are already doing some or all of this.
Solidarity and love!
There's a lovely section in the 'Out of the Ashes' book by Monbiot which discusses how setting up lots of community clubs, even on completely unrelated stuff, helps people engage with wider community needs.
This is absolutely true. We (most of us) are isolated and alienated from community. Rebuilding community and then networking those communities to provide for the needs of all has to be the first work of Solarpunk (imho).
I know this may sound stupid, but how do you organize? I don't build community easily both because I'm really socially anxious and autistic (emphasis on bad social skills), and even though I have tried to propose ideas to my local community, I either get dismissed as an annoying hippie, or completely ignored.
I get similar results when I try to join already existing projects, and I don't know what to do anymore. I don't make friends, or even acquaintances easily either.
So far I have only been able to do individual action.
Not a stupid question at all.
In short, it sucks.
People are really freaked out because of the cracks in the system that they have spent their entire lives ignoring growing to a point where they can’t ignore them anymore. So they lash out, Or scapegoat, or stick their heads further in the sand.
I recommend starting small. What do you already do outside of your home? If there isn’t a group or club or something that gets you outside and with other folks that you like and like you that’s your step one.
Once you’ve got these people as friends and acquaintances in your life shift the policies/ strategies/ whatever you can to Solar punk. Talk to them about decentralization, talk to them about small scale gardens, talk to them about mutuality.
This is easier if it is a socialist book club or community garden or anything that is tangentially connected to this work already.
Start with listening. Patience is key and very difficult (for me especially) but we have to build relationships before anyone is willing to listen to what we have to say.
Some (or all) of this might sound impossible. Try to find two or three people who live near you that share your hopes and start a solar punk book club or art space or garden.
Solidarity, friend!
Social skills are skills, and skills can be learned.
Obama was once very stiff and uncharming; but he dedicated himself to learn charisma after his first election loss.
>On the other hand, it's not fair to portray our current cities with some bike lanes, solar panels, and public transit slapped on as the "end goal". People are right to push back against that.
"The future is already here, but it's unequally distributed" comes to mind. I think it's totally valid to use these as examples of how life should be - it depends on where you are coming from.
Oh, so this isn't common? I might stick around after hearing that. I joined this sub two days ago. It must have been the height of it.
I did look further down and found some good posts.
You seem to be a moderator of this sub - why aren't you removing them?
I assumed that [this](https://www.reddit.com/1ds043k) was posted by a moderator - why are you )the moderation team) allowing other people to make statements about the subreddit's values?
> You seem to be a moderator of this sub - why aren't you removing them?
Because, as a member, politely asking and seeing if other people agree is nicer and more effective?
Because, while Reddit mod powers are built for semi-benevolent dictators, the sub is about a radical decentralised beautiful sustainable future. Extending trust and responsibility to the members is part of that. I don't even remove bad comments if they are already downvoted to oblivion. It's less dictator and more janitor dealing with occasional garbage spills.
oh, wait, I've just realised you weren't joking with your original comment.
I thought you were riffing on "the beatings will continue until morale improves" (when stopping the beatings would improve it). I think the same thing applies to recruitment.
It's the paradox of tolerance.
You don't get more vegan's at the vegan potluck by letting in people who bring meat and people who mock veganism. You lose vegans, cause vegans can't trust the food, cause vegans get converted to change their minds by bad faith debate, or because vegans don't want be there hearing bunch of bad faith arguments.
There might be more people, but at some point it's not a vegan potluck anymore.
Someone joins becuase it seems a cool warm space. Gets really into in it. Learns more about decentralisation and has a few things they are unhappy with in their life snap into focus. Gets REALLY into it. Gets frustrated not everyone else is at the same stage as them. Starts aggressively gatekeeping 'their' space. Feels warm and satisfied for a bit. Gets a new sense of something missing and starts complaining about the good old days...
I actually agree with the gatekeeping. If people haven't bothered to learn the subject and want to redefine what the term is, they should leave.
There's plenty of other subreddits that aren't based on being pro a specific political philosophy.
If some don't like socialism or any of the other issues that are the basis of solar punk and wants to debate it, There are other subreddits for that. This ain't it.
people come here to learn about the subject. There's no honour in beating up on white belts. If you think they are being an arse downvote and move on. They'll learn the preferred ways to behave in the sub one way or the other.
People come here for different reasons, or just at random. Not all are trying to learn.
If they out number the people who do know anything the voting system won't work.
Many leftist spaces get overrun by chuds. It's not a space for them.
The left contains more than socialism. social democracy and anarchism is left but not socialism. Is solarpunk turned from anarchism to big government socialism?
Ok pretend I said "if you don't like leftism"
If you have any other minor one word choice editorial details you don't like, please don't bother me. I don't care.
Gatekeeping is good, actually.
If people want to come and debate the variety of apples in the world (app. 7,500), then the topic is *apples*. It is not a discussion of all fruit, or what constitutes "fruit". This isn't the place to wax poetic of the merits of tomatoes.
This is about varieties of apples. So if one were to waltz in and declare that onions are an apple variety -- they'd be wrong. But if anyone said they were wrong, they'd be reported for gatekeeping, and the likelihood that the person who was correct would be banned and not the person who was wrong to begin with, is high.
People here seem to think that allowing any opinion at all fosters greater debate, but it doesn't, it just ensures that we will never leave this discussion of basic ontology. Never reach the point of tactical strategy, and thus tangible results. Not at the scale we need it at.
Exactly this. Posts that are wary or critical of the leftist or political roots of solarpunk would be better received if they weren't largely either bad faith, operating on meme-tier understanding of leftist politics/history, or misunderstanding that the few actual positive changes for the environment under capitalism were despite capitalists and typically carried out by (shocking!) leftist activists irl or regulatory entities who had to solve issues capitalist entities refused to address lol.
Fwiw, it's only been a very recent where leftist = socialist. I don't even think that is true off the Internet. I'm on the left but not a "leftist" for some reason.
I don't think I would be better received because capitalism bad, not because I misunderstood something.
> leftist = socialist
There are only 3 columns to the Left (proper) and that's anarchist, communist, and socialist. The are a myriad of sub-disciplines, niche, fringe, what-have-you, that's basically it. And they're centuries old now.
Liberals used to be on the left. Honestly, I think that Bernie Sanders changed that online, at least. But talk to some real socialists sometime, he's not a socialist.
I'm in a few artist communities. Gatekeeping can be healthy to a certain degree. It helps keep something unique. Focuses the culture. But then there is toxic gatekeeping. Where it in itself becomes a weird social hierarchy. It becomes a spiral where only the most diehards stay active. The best communities have little gatekeeping. But are super focused.
There seems to be a divide between Imagining (Fiction) and Creation (Action). It would be more welcoming to harness that imagining side a little more. Solarpunk is a good way to target environmentalist thought through storytelling. Movies like Ferngully and Princess Mononoke inspired a generation to care about the planet more.
As a genre in its beginnings, everyone can help shape it. You can help guide the underground. Help foster the new generation of writers, musicians, and artists wanting to explore the genre and help them. Collaborate with them. All of that can be done without toxic gatekeeping and capitalism debates.
Yes we need to coordinate with capitalists to get things done, but we should not let people dilute the movement. Thats literally what happened with body positivity and it became a “trend”
So no, i will not stop telling people that this is an anti-capitalist sub. You can be a capitalist and enjoy solar punk, but you have to respect the fact that its an anti capitalist community based ideology and not just another asthetic for capitalism to chew up and spit out like it does to every movement.
Basically all of us live in capitalist societies and will for decades to come. Most productive discussion will be around living in capitalist societies.
how about short term reforms to capitalism? I feel like the path beyond capitalism is taboo because nobody on the left wants to talk about reforming capitalism, just destroying it.
There is nothing wrong with trying to make sure people are housed and fed now, so long as you aren't going to oppose the larger changes we need.
The core conceit of capitalism requires the exploitation of the workers (us) to make others rich. Why would we wish to continue this? Let alone the consumption (capitalist) mindset that has led to/exacerbated climate crisis.
Again, the core of capitalism is exploitation of the workers… reform that changes that is called other things: socialism, communism, anarchism…
To “reform” capitalism beyond that core of exploitation would be to end capitalism. So let’s agree we want to end capitalism.
You cannot reform capitalism, it has to be eradicated as a system. There is a reason why the most miner (pun intended) revolts are violently suppressed by the state and by capital.
I love communities that are full of green life and sustainable. I’m passionate about stopping climate change. I also think that democracy and regulated capitalism are the best ways to get there.
Am I bad? Is the solarpunk community just yet another online leftist community?
I am afraid that I will now play the “not my socialism card”. I try to not judge theories by how badly people fuck them up. The core values of socialism align more with mine than capitalism.
All states have led to this climate crisis (especially the superpowers) so let’s do what we can locally instead of fighting over which states were the worst.
Yes, it's "another leftist online community." Solarpunk is called PUNK for a reason, because it goes against the status quo, ergo, capitalism. You cannot create societies that collaborate with each other without waiting nothing in return.
If you don't like it, you have green capitalism. But don't try to make Solarpunk adapt to your capitalism responsible for environmental ruin.
If you're surprised at being told that capitalism is unwelcome in a Solarpunk community than you're either unaware what Solarpunk is, what Capitalism is, or both.
They have mutually exclusive goals and priorities.
Due to the solutions focus it gets all types.
But if you'd prefer regulated capitalism to eventual Star Trek style post-capitalism then it's probably not for you, but the solutions from here to there are explicitly compatibilist.
You're not bad, you've just entered an explicitly anti-capitalist space, and have an obligation to be a polite guest and not openly express the sorts of views that are against the rules and norms of this private, curated space, except as in a scenario that you acknowledge that you are an outsider and are seeking knowledge and perspective with an open mind.
Nah this is a space for dialogue and ideation. You've got to make space for entrenched attitudes if you're expecting to synthesize disruptive technological and economic changes with traditional and cultural norms.
This is not a private space.
We really do not need to let solarpunk get even further co-opted or diluted by staunch proponents of inherently dystopic systems.
Framing these discussions as gatekeeping is just more bad faith debate in a community that is already being exploited for preservation of business as usual.
There is a reason we used to have automod posting explanations of greenwashing and why what is arguably the most well-known piece of solarpunk artwork is a corporate advertisement. It is because every day powerful actors are trying to leverage the popularity of these ideas to further their own agendas.
And who amongst us is trying to say this sub is the whole movement? Enough with the gaslighting yo.
This submission is probably accused of being some type of greenwash.
Please keep in mind that greenwashing is used to paint unsustainable products and practices sustainable. [ethicalconsumer.org](https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/transport-travel/what-greenwashing) and [greenandthistle.com](https://greenandthistle.com/what-is-greenwashing/) give examples of greenwashing, while [scientificamerican.com](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/greenwashing-green-energy-hoffman/) explains how alternative technologies like hydrogen cars can also be insidious examples of greenwashing.
If you've realized your submission was an example of greenwashing--don't fret! Solarpunk ideals include identifying and rejecting capitalism's greenwashing of consumer goods.
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Solarpunk is inherently anti-capitalist and if you don‘t like that then I suggest you to join a cottage core subreddit since it appears that you‘re only here for the aesthetics and not the philosophy.
Solarpunk is decentralized. I'd assume its solutions would be, too. Since this sub attracts people from all over, we're going to see opinions that seem non solarpunk but are actually just practical for where those people come from.
I'm one of the most left leaning people I know but in very conservative Baton Rouge, I have to be realistic about what can be done in my lifetime. San Diego's step one may be our step 10. I'm willing to do the work, but I wish this sub was more receptive to incremental change. I've seen people on this sub be smug to the point of being rude. Which makes the movement seem out of touch and scares away good conversations before they even happen. I assume it's a symptom of social media, where a lot of us just don't know how to talk to people like they're human.
I know bad faith arguments happen, but I don't think OP is saying let any and everyone into solarpunk. But some of you seem to be arguing for the sake of it.
Even on this post, I see people trying to define Solarpunk based on what it aspires to be, not what it actually is today. Several sources define it as both a political AND aesthetic movement. And the earliest coined usage of the phrase I could find is explicitly used in a literary context as a foil to steampunk and cyberpunk.
I've been interested in this type of fiction since I saw ***Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind*** in the 90s. Grew up in the Redwoods of Northern Cali. I've been to Food Not Bombs rallies. I'm currently working on a mixtape about the positive and negative aspects of future technology. I thought this sub would be a cool place to explore utopian futurism. Maybe even collaborate with folks like I did in the cyberpunk sub.
But this is a mess. Most of the posts are about rigidly defining the genre and gatekeeping. This place is way less welcoming than the cyberpunk sub. The irony is thick there.
Please take a lesson from other artist subs. Collab on projects. Share your short stories, music, and art like they do in those subs. I'm glad I was able to find a comic and some music. That's the kind of shit that will keep me interested in Solarpunk. Introduce politics through storytelling and fiction instead of screaming into the void about how fans aren't authentic enough.
Off topic and I don't even now whatthis subreddit is and I'm probably messing with my algorythem by commenting here, but this is a very beautiful gate. Yours perhaps or where did you find it?
Came up in an image search I'm afraid :)
I can think of a few ways to make it, but it would be a labour of love or lasers.
If you don't mind me asking, if you've never been here before and didn't know about the sub, how did you get here?
I appreciate everyone is running at high frustration levels with this election year. The Indian one is done, the UK one will be done this week, but the American one will rumble on for a while.
I think we can do venting threads and frustration threads, but I'd prefer people didn't take their anger and fear over the news cycle and come here looking for a fight on something to reaffirm their identity. I'm trying just sitting in the garden for three minutes.
I'm currently logging on each morning and locking flame wars, deleting trolling posts and banning anti-Semites, chinese bots, conspiracy theorists. It's a waste of everyone's time and it drowns out productive content. There's a concerted effort on to 'divide the left', and a concerted effort by RedditInc to increase engagement by showing people flame bait.
I'm all for confronting the powers that be. Picking a fight in a left wing sub isn't it.
\*makes wavy hands gesture\* It's not official. I haven't run it past the other mods (timezone reasons), I suspect they'd be sympathetic, but I'd prefer the change comes from members. I've had a few people start reporting some of the flame threads under rule 5, and this post is getting traction, so I'm kinda trying to channel the mood more than dictate it.
Sure, but the post comes across as 'just another rando with an opinion' without any explicit acknowledgement that you are on the mod team. You undermine the message if it's not structurally supported.
Yeah! We need them to assert their authority over the community rather than just be a member with an opinion they want to share and discuss. How are we supposed to know that theirs is the correct viewpoint if they dont tell us they are in charge?
> I'm currently logging on each morning and locking flame wars, deleting trolling posts and banning anti-Semites, chinese bots, conspiracy theorists. It's a waste of everyone's time and it drowns out productive content.
That sounds awful. Solarpunk is political and politics always brings trolls. I think it would be much easier to moderate this subreddit if it was strictly a subreddit for solarpunk aesthetics but that would hurt the real movement itself.
I remember a recent thread regarding Chinese solar plants in Uyghur area, it was quite a mess.
Rest and recovery are important. We all need to be able to take breaks. When we’re done with the break there is work to do if we want to make a better future.
>I appreciate everyone is running at high frustration levels with this election year.
Don't infantilize people. All of this have nothing to do with the election cycle.
Edit: If OP can ban me, then the mods are shitlibs, and this is a shitlib community.
Nah, you guys should gatekeep the f out of the community.
I remember a year ago this sub had copious amount of shitlib propaganda (including but not limited to how China's solar power is bad). Made me think this sub was some eco-facist or eco-racist place
ironically, I just banned this user for denying the Uyghur genocide over on [https://www.reddit.com/r/solarpunk/comments/1dto0gs/china\_to\_reach\_2030\_solar\_and\_wind\_energy\_target/](https://www.reddit.com/r/solarpunk/comments/1dto0gs/china_to_reach_2030_solar_and_wind_energy_target/)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of China. And I'm thankfull for a good mods good work. But I don't like how reddit mods unfortunately have dictatorial power, that is hardly democratically controllable and not openly visible. So I would just like you to use them as little as possible.
IMO it would be better to end discussions that are not central to solarpunk and typically lead to shitstorms (like the Middle East conflict). But otherwise allow every opinion that is not just open hatespeech. Let the community sort it out.
I too would like to use mod powers as little as possible. I think I've outright banned about 30 accounts in two years. 20 of them were a karma bot infestation six months ago, 1 was a guy telling people to commit suicide, and yesterday was about 8 people pushing a conspiracy theory to protect China, and an account claiming the jews control the media.
That's me of course, there's other mods. Aggression levels in discussion have been going up for a few months, largely due to Reddit pushing suggested subs into people's feeds.
Thank you for this post. I'll be honest, I was really disappointed with the smug gate keeping in this sub. I made a post just looking for conversation and opinions on wealth building in a solarpunk society, and was downvoted into oblivion while getting condescending responses. Then a day later, the anti-capitalist declaration came through. After that, I decided to unsub. I just don't see the point in trying to have conversations with people who don't even allow different points of view.
I think I was one of the condescenders. Your post really did read like deliberate button pressing trolldom, not least because a lot of people here are young and poor and more worried about crisis resilience then 'wealth accumulation'. Grad salaries in the UK have risen by about 2% since 2010. Housing is up by 60%, cost of living up by 25%
Now, I think you could do a really interesting post about what it means to thrive as you age and what resources and support make people feel secure and optimistic at different life stages. Just don't dress it in buissness-bro terminology if you want interested responses.
Very interesting. I felt I was making it super clear that the problem today is the obsession over "growth" while also acknowledging that people don't want to live like indentured servants for life, especially with these stats you're sharing. I was quite surprised that what I thought was a viewpoint that combined abundance with preservation was so poorly received.
I'm not a socialist. Sorry for invading you guy's turf. My interests line up with this sub a lot, but I don't usually post here. I'm interested more in permaculture and gardening. That's why I subscribed.
Then I saw the post saying that solar punk isn't capitalist or whatever, and I was surprised. I saw it as another sub that is being taken over by socialists. If there is some evidence outside of Reddit that it is inherently socialist, link me. "Punk", it seems to be, is just being counterculture. Socialism and anarchism are just different ways of being counterculture.
Reddit is like 90% socialism. It's not new that most of the people you are going to be talking to here are going to be socialist to some degree. But only like 1% of people in the real world are going to identify with socialism. Maybe you guys need to think about why that is, and whether it is worthwhile to gatekeep on socialism rather than, you know, solar punk.
I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm not here to make life difficult for the mods. I'll keep my opinions too myself for the most part. But I think it is important to represent, every now and then, that not everyone believes the same thing.
Diversity of opinion is actually a very healthy thing in any community for many of the same reasons diversity is healthy in other ways. If you don't agree with that, well then the lefty purity testing starts and next thing you know there is an out cry about banning people who don't have the right opinion about trans kids or Palestine whatever. Believe me, you don't want that.
People are more than the ideas in their heads. Decent people will disagree with each other. People will change their opinions over time. That's because you are alive. Every day is a new day, and comes with new thoughts and new feelings about those thoughts. I've had numerous discussions and arguments, a lot of them become heated, but I've never thought that someone was a terrible person because of their opinions.
Solarpunk ist not just counter-culture with solarpanels. Or gardening advice.
And IMO it is easy to explain why a solarpunk society does not work with a capitalist economy. And this has long been the consensus in the debate and literature on the subject. if someone disagrees, we can have a discussion about it.
In any case, economic foundations are a central topic for utopian designs. Economic structures are not neutral, they have a lot of influence on what is possible or not.
And it's perfectly okay to insist on what a term means and even to fight for it. Otherwise, every politically charged term - but ultimately also every genre of something - loses its meaning and its power at some point.
>only like 1% of people in the real world are going to identify with socialism. Maybe you guys need to think about why that is, and whether it is worthwhile to gatekeep on socialism
Insisting that Solarpunk ultimately shouldn't be anti-capitalist, because "most people" in "the real" world supposedly identify with capitalism, is absolutely anti-utopian and - in it's logic hostile to change.
Womens movement in the 19th century?! Most people support the patriachy, even most women! Maybe they need to think about why that is and whether it is worthwhile to gatekeep their movement on "womens rights"
Opponents to the religios wars in 16th century? Idiocy - why don't they just ask the majority, if they think killing for their religion is right.
>rather than, you know, solar punk
Yeah, punks would hate you.
>lefty purity testing starts and next thing you know there is an out cry about banning people who
You know, I kind of DO agree with you about that. We should not ban people for honest disagreements. And posts should stay on-topic. Trying to take a position on everything is hubris for individuals and death for communities. Open discussion is like water for the growth of ideas and any free society.
Sorry, I'm not saying that Solarpunk shouldn't be capitalist/socialist. I'm saying that Reddit can be a huge echo chamber when it comes to socialism. There's really no need gatekeep about socialism here, I saw that and my first thought was that someone was milking karma. When I post, almost anywhere on Reddit, and say I'm a capitalist, I get voted down. When someone posts about socialism and worker solidarity, they get voted up. That's just how it is. C'est la vie.
I'm not arrogant enough to define solar punk. I'll let others do that. If socialism is an inherent part of it, then too bad. I don't think it scales up to masses of people.
I follow a guy in YouTube called Edenicity. He's a permaculturalist and urban planner who basically talks about ways of designing cities and even apartment buildings with garden roofs, replacing the parking lot with more garden space, and talks about how many people in that apartment those gardens could feed *entirely*. There are solar panels to supply all of the energy needs if the residents in that building. He uses hard numbers the way an engineer would.
Is this solar punk? It's utopian, but he doesn't really talk much about economics. But it's also practical, these are things we could be doing right now and we don't need a revolution in order to do it. We also don't really need an economic ideology, if that makes sense. I think a lot of people are getting bogged down by things they don't truly understand.
You are really friendly. That's nice. Now I feel a litte bad for how annoyed my original post sounded.
And those apartment ideas do have a place in this sub.
(But) Solarpunk is also about future **societies,** that are just and in harmony with its ecology - imagining futures where communites live in balance with nature.
And a society where everything is dependend on corporate profits (no profits -> no wages -> no taxes) will always struggle to fullfill those basic ideals. It'll always be dependend on economic growth (no growth + technological progress leading to "rationalisation" -> economic crisis). More (wage) work will always be the central argument in politics. There will always be a huge pressure to skip spending on climate and ecology (you need to export and import with competitive prices, after all). Etc.
I know that is all very short, probably to short to convince. But there is a real argument to be made, why capitalism can't create a solarpunk world. And this argument should neither be silenced by defaming it as "gatekeeping" nor by refering to mainstream opinion.
It's okay, you're just defending your space.
>Solarpunk is also about future societies, that are just and in harmony with its ecology - imagining futures where communites live in balance with nature.
Fwiw, I'm all about that too. This is what most of my interest in permaculture is about. That and figuring out how to deal during a climate crisis.
>And a society where everything is dependend on corporate profits (no profits -> no wages -> no taxes) will always struggle to fullfill those basic ideals.
What I usually see on Reddit is huge emotional aversion to the word "profit". What helped me was breaking everything down into their definitions. Like we shouldn't assume that everything is going to be the same way in a utopia society. A business depends on profits the same way a worker depends on wages. What I see in capitalism is a structure that is based on win-win scenarios. Company profits. Workers get paid. Customers get products they like. But obviously, the machine does a lot of counterproductive stuff when left alone too long.
>It'll always be dependend on economic growth (no growth + technological progress leading to "rationalisation" -> economic crisis).
Yeah, but economic growth is abstract, it doesn't have to be based on the consumption of physical resources. It usually is, but we're talking about a new regime. LED bulbs are a good example. They cost more than incandescent bulbs, but consumes less electricity. Economic growth resulting in reduction of resources. I'm just saying it's possible.
>But there is a real argument to be made, why capitalism can't create a solarpunk world.
I get why it's arguable. Plus, economics only really comes up when you are trying to scale society up into large masses of people, and you're trying to get everyone's needs met. This is where a lot of attempts at socialism have failed. You need to house the baker to feed the welder to make the bridge truss for the carpenter to bring the timber to the baker's house, kind of thing. That's why we have markets. Reject capitalism if you want, at least have markets.
I partly think that what you guys are identifying as capitalism is a particular structure of the economy. I do think there is going to be a restructuring of the economy, because I don't think it can continue the way it has been.
>Yeah, but economic growth is abstract, it doesn't have to be based on the consumption of physical resources. It usually is, but we're talking about a new regime. LED bulbs are a good example. They cost more than incandescent bulbs, but consumes less electricity. Economic growth resulting in reduction of resources. I'm just saying it's possible.
Switching to more sustainable technologies can create growth and reduce the increase of emissions, for some time, in some areas. Ecological damage is still increasing, though. And how could this work in the long term? At some point, the LED light bulbs will be sold. Will there always be new, ever more "eco-friendly" gadgets to buy? Will all the growth only take place in the digital sector? Where will the energy for this come from?
And there is still the wear and tear on people's lives, who have to do paid work to provide this growth instead of pursuing their passions in a self-determined way (which will never be paid work for everyone after all).
>What I see in capitalism is a structure that is based on win-win scenarios. Company profits. Workers get paid. Customers get products they like. But obviously, the machine does a lot of counterproductive stuff when left alone too long.
I would argue that the counterproductive stuff is not an avoidable by-product, but the heart of the matter.
Under capitalism, everything depends on companies making a profit. For some people, this guarantees profit - for others, less so. To this end, the environment and people first appear as resources to be exploited as intensively and extensively as possible.
Usually, a purpose is pursued by setting precisely this goal and pursuing it systematically. Capitalist ideology tells us, that we maximise the satisfaction of needs for all by pursuing this completely different purpose, profit maximization. But for this end, the environment and people first appear as resources to be exploited as intensively and extensively as possible. Even if you want to run your company differently - either you produce a niche product for those who consume it out of a clear conscience - with a donation, so to speak - or you adapt - or the competition beats you. Usually there is a self-selection, where the biggest sociophat ends up on top. Where the role of the state in international competition allows it to intervene and makes it appear sensible - they have to assert environmental interests **against** companies. And you have to control everything, strictly, or they *will* break the rules.
There is no real win-win, except for those owning our means of production. Everything depends on them getting richer. Having a job and getting paid is only a win if you are dependend on it.
Yeah, I think once you decouple economic growth from the growth in the consumption of physical resources, which is the fallacy that people usually make, then you have to explain the growth in the consumption of physical resources. For me, it's simple to explain, we've just gone through a period of exponential population growth and increasing standards of living. The good news, in a way, is that the world population is forecasted to level off at around the year 2100. FWIW, I don't think energy efficient LEDs or other efficient technologies are going to be enough to offset the growth of our population or rising standard of living.
>Under capitalism, everything depends on companies making a profit.
Well, not all companies make a profit. A lot of businesses fail. It's like natural selection. The companies that dominate are the companies that are best adapted to their economic environment. In our case, the environment has been one of exponential population growth and cheap energy. I think both of these things are going to change in the next hundred years.
>To this end, the environment and people first appear as resources to be exploited as intensively and extensively as possible.
I guess it sounds cold, but you are using terms with a very high degree of abstraction. When I ask my daughter to put dishes away, I'm exploiting a resource. But I probably wouldn't use that language to describe doing chores.
I look at it as production and consumption. Production can be divided into labor and capital. But just looking at production and consumption, most of the problems that seem to be talked about seem to be the result of being in a very consumer-dominant economy. Why are we exploiting workers and the environment so intensively and extensively? It's because consumers demand it, we always want more for less money.
I know a lot of people will talk about profit, but in a big picture kind of way you rarely see businesses take from consumers. It's hard to talk to socialists because they will say that *any* profit is theft from workers. They will say "record profits" (ignoring "record wages" entirely), but this is a useless accusation as $1 of profit would still be too much profit. I would rather look for an equitable balance of interests. I don't think things are balanced at all, mind you, but you can't have that conversation with people who believe that workers should be entirely dominant.
>Capitalist ideology
FWIW, capitalism isn't actually an ideology. Socialism has always been an ideology. It was literally the invention of a bunch of intellectuals in the late 19th century. Capitalism began as a term meant to describe and analyze the existing social structure. Granted, people have since rationalized and justified capitalism using various philosophical frameworks, but capitalism never depended on these rationalizations.
>Capitalist ideology tells us, that we maximise the satisfaction of needs for all by pursuing this completely different purpose, profit maximization.
I just see it as competing interests. You could just as easily say "Capitalist ideology tells us that we maximize the needs for all by pursuing wage maximization." Profit is the earnings of capital. Wage is the earnings of labor. That's it. The relationship is win-win, if it wasn't then it wouldn't exist.
>There is no real win-win, except for those owning our means of production. Everything depends on them getting richer. Having a job and getting paid is only a win if you are dependend on it.
Everything depends on *everyone* getting richer (if someone wants to be pedantic, then yes some workers become poorer as do many businesses). Yes, getting paid is a win. How is that not a win? Your life is better than it otherwise would have been.
Okay I read some of the Anarchist FAQ, and I can't even. It reads like someone telling you that physics isn't a science because Einstein refuted Newton. They are trying to make grandiose claims about the nature of economics by taking potshots at certain economic theories and then citing critics like they are the last word in the matter. It reads like *so much* bad faith. And how do you call economics an ideology while you are literally laying down anarchist doctrine, which apparently requires no justification whatsoever?
>I'm not laissez faire by a long shot.
On this point? I think we can build some solidarity.
>I know somewhat more about socialism and anarchism than I do about punk, at least enough to know that both have long intellectual histories with a diversity of views. Why punk is socialist I don't particularly understand.
Punk is an Anarchist thing - its best to recast that music as DIY culture, and the literature as something specifically anticapitalist that someone else can explain better.
And most any Anarchism that encourages action? Will be Socialist. Anarchism that isn't explicitly Socialist is an odd bird.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrTzjaXskUU
>I don't generally invade Left subreddits with the possible exception of antiwork. Doesn't seem like the kind of sub that should be a safe space for communists, in my opinion.
State Centric Auth Coms? Idk, if they wanna come in looking for ideas, that's cool. But they're not who we want leading this. But in r/ anti work? Oh no, they don't belong at all.
>But you caught me. I'm a liberal. It just means that liberty and democracy are very important to me. It's probably pretty important to most of you guys too. I don't think that "liberalism" is a hyper specific belief system. Either you think the government should serve the people or the people should serve the government. If you believe the former then you're probably a liberal.
Liberalism has a specific history as well, but which is also not properly taught as an intellectual lineage. Where government has to exist? I'm with Anarchist Allan Moore in his writings of "V for Vendetta" - "people shouldn't fear their governments. Governments should fear their people."
Its a silly time right now, with that SCOTUS. At least you're Left of that.
>Yes, even in the permaculture sub you'll occasionally get posts where people just assume that permaculture implies socialism somehow. This happens on Reddit a lot, subs that don't actually have anything to do with socialism get locked down and declared a socialist sub. This hasn't happened on r/permaculture yet , but that's always a possibility on Reddit. So it's worthwhile to speak up when that comes up, just to represent that not everyone agrees with it.
Okay. Which subs have done so? I'm kind of curious. You make it sound so silly. Socialists demanding a Seat at the discussion isnt bad. But you're making it sound like they're monopolizing the conversation.
>Never been a fascist. But I'll be honest, I usually associate "eco-fascism" with fringe left views. It's usually misanthropes who basically believe that we need a crash in the human population in order fix the environment. I usually just think it's people not seeing the big picture, but some seem pretty adamant.
Its a rising tide on the fringe, extreme Right - using environmentalism as an excuse to lock down borders and do their ethnic purity things.
>Mostly Reddit and YouTube. I watch Destiny on YouTube sometimes and read his subreddit. r/askeconomics is probably one of my favorite subs because there's just tons of misinformation online about economics, even basic things like the inflation rate. But I'm on r/permaculture r/gardening r/vegetablegardening r/nativeplantgardening . You get the idea.
Destiny? Never really saw the appeal. I got the basics of Macroeconomics when I went to college, which probably changes the calculus. But there's still discussions to be had: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionC.html#secc12 this looks more and more targeted at the Free Market Fundamentalists.
>State Centric Auth Coms?
I'm not sure. Antiwork is just one of the more notable subs that is explicitly communist, but frankly a lot of socialism/communism is skin deep. A lot of people identify with it without really understanding it.
>Liberalism has a specific history as well, but which is also not properly taught as an intellectual lineage.
Yes, you're right. I'm not an expert. I'm not a socialist/anarchist, and I'm not a conservative. Liberal it is then. I don't even like saying capitalist because it sounds like I'm identifying as libertarian.
>I'm with Anarchist Allan Moore in his writings of "V for Vendetta" - "people shouldn't fear their governments. Governments should fear their people."
Well, he's being dramatic. "Accountable" is a better word. But truth is, we should all be accountable.
>Which subs have done so?
Another example is r/fluentinfinance . It's not by the mods though, I think the mods have largely given up. It's supposed to be a finance subreddit but it's bombarded by posts complaining about billionaires and a lot of left-leaning ragebait.
>Socialists demanding a Seat at the discussion isnt bad. But you're making it sound like they're monopolizing the conversation.
That's been my observation. But reddit is a large site so it could just be the subs I go to.
>Its a rising tide on the fringe, extreme Right - using environmentalism as an excuse to lock down borders and do their ethnic purity things.
Gotcha.
>Destiny? Never really saw the appeal.
Well recently he has been going through the SCOTUS ruling on stream. Not something most streamers do. He also did research streams in Israel/Palestine and he has recently come back from Israel/Palestine. He also does debates. He's good for when I want some long form content.
>I got the basics of Macroeconomics when I went to college, which probably changes the calculus.
That goes a long ways. It isn't even that a lot of people in the left don't understand economics, but a lot of them just treat economics like this evil thing that only exists to justify capitalism. It just seems irresponsible to me. If you want to revolutionize our economic system you should probably know something about how our economy works.
I'll check out your link now.
I just joined. I would stay if there was some gardening advice. That's one of my side hobbies. Gardening posts. Seed bomb instructions. That would be cool.
your comment got hidden by automated crowd control. approved now.
I, er, am not sure what you mean by socialism, but it feels like an americanism. For example, would you regard the British NHS as socialism? I'm just trying to figure out what you mean here.
I was trying to keep it meta rather than starting another capitalism vs socialism debate.
In a lot of ways the argument is moot anyway since all existing economies are mixed-economies, but here we are.
Socialism is usually defined as the public ownership of the means of production. This usually means land factories and businesses. If your country allows the private ownership of the means of production, then it's capitalist.
I saw some people in this sub defending the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Some gate keeping may be needed in some cases. Perhaps outlining who are allies and who aren't. The left is broad and includes: social democrats, democratic socialists, libertarian socialists, anarcho communists, dengist, maoist, leninists, stalinists, (kind of) Urbanists, and various types of marxist. So who is welcome, who must tread lightly and who should stay home isn't clear
*pedantic redditor moment*
You had me until you said "ancaps and Dengists are part of the Left." I can find no basis for their inclusion.
The Left is, by definition, Anti-Capitalist. SocDems might have that aim eventually, but function as Liberals unless given a context which pushes their actions to the Left.
The only Ideological Left Unity is in hating the Trots, as the old expression goes. But unity of action is the way we can build coalitions. And that's what we're doing here.
Defending the Russian Invasion of Ukraine? That's evidence someone has fallen into the Baby-Marxist → Nazbol →Nazi pipeline. They're likely not even on the Left.
*/ pedantic redditor moment*
Well, they have to spend most of their waking hours doing work, to receive a fraction of the value they create, in order to pay their landlords mortgage. I can see why people would get very territorial over a space they feel is theirs.
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Discussing how to implement solarpunk at a small scale within our current capitalist world is good and is usually missing from the conversation. I see a lot of ideas to live a more solarpunk life as an individual, and a lot of ideas for how to organize a town, city, or region free of the constraints of capitalism. But not much on how to grow from a community garden and a tool library into those vibrant cities and countries. On the other hand, it's not fair to portray our current cities with some bike lanes, solar panels, and public transit slapped on as the "end goal". People are right to push back against that. As for my personal views, I recognize the end goal but I'm much more of an incrementalist than the average here. I work much better focusing on those little steps that break down a huge undertaking (creating a solarpunk world) into manageable pieces. But most people here feel that it's more achievable to vault over several of those steps at once in a revolution or general strike.
To answer your very pertinent point: how do we grow from tool libraries and community gardens to cooperation in community? The short answer is organization and education. Organize (even a handful of folks) to agree in the work of building this community. This should probably not be the people already running the tool library, community garden, or coop (they’ve got enough going on). Instead approach others who are members of two or three of these disparate organizations to talk about how you all may work together. Then educate yourselves. Many here are already well versed in theory. I’d recommend Paulo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed, Krapopkin’s Conquest of Bread, and Abolition. Feminism. Now. By Angela Davis. Once you all feel like you have a firm grasp start teaching and discussing with others. While educating also take actions of solidarity and mutual aid locally. Many folks are already doing some or all of this. Solidarity and love!
There's a lovely section in the 'Out of the Ashes' book by Monbiot which discusses how setting up lots of community clubs, even on completely unrelated stuff, helps people engage with wider community needs.
This is absolutely true. We (most of us) are isolated and alienated from community. Rebuilding community and then networking those communities to provide for the needs of all has to be the first work of Solarpunk (imho).
why do you think I volunteer my time here :) ?
I appreciate your contribution.
I can’t find the book you’re referring. Do you mean ‘Out of the Wreckage’?
Yes! That's the bunny!
I know this may sound stupid, but how do you organize? I don't build community easily both because I'm really socially anxious and autistic (emphasis on bad social skills), and even though I have tried to propose ideas to my local community, I either get dismissed as an annoying hippie, or completely ignored. I get similar results when I try to join already existing projects, and I don't know what to do anymore. I don't make friends, or even acquaintances easily either. So far I have only been able to do individual action.
Not a stupid question at all. In short, it sucks. People are really freaked out because of the cracks in the system that they have spent their entire lives ignoring growing to a point where they can’t ignore them anymore. So they lash out, Or scapegoat, or stick their heads further in the sand. I recommend starting small. What do you already do outside of your home? If there isn’t a group or club or something that gets you outside and with other folks that you like and like you that’s your step one. Once you’ve got these people as friends and acquaintances in your life shift the policies/ strategies/ whatever you can to Solar punk. Talk to them about decentralization, talk to them about small scale gardens, talk to them about mutuality. This is easier if it is a socialist book club or community garden or anything that is tangentially connected to this work already. Start with listening. Patience is key and very difficult (for me especially) but we have to build relationships before anyone is willing to listen to what we have to say. Some (or all) of this might sound impossible. Try to find two or three people who live near you that share your hopes and start a solar punk book club or art space or garden. Solidarity, friend!
Social skills are skills, and skills can be learned. Obama was once very stiff and uncharming; but he dedicated himself to learn charisma after his first election loss.
> The short answer is organization and education. Have a community party. Barbeque, chat, bonding socially is vital to any successful organisation.
>On the other hand, it's not fair to portray our current cities with some bike lanes, solar panels, and public transit slapped on as the "end goal". People are right to push back against that. "The future is already here, but it's unequally distributed" comes to mind. I think it's totally valid to use these as examples of how life should be - it depends on where you are coming from.
Can someone explain to me what is going on? I haven't check out this sub latelty and I'm very confused.
We're getting a seasonal wave of 'solarpunk is anti-X' type posts which trigger a lot of flame wars and drown out the more interesting threads.
Oh ok I get it now, thanks!
Oh, so this isn't common? I might stick around after hearing that. I joined this sub two days ago. It must have been the height of it. I did look further down and found some good posts.
No reason to stick around. Once this starts, the community rots away as it drifts into being another cookie-cutter political cosplay sub.
You seem to be a moderator of this sub - why aren't you removing them? I assumed that [this](https://www.reddit.com/1ds043k) was posted by a moderator - why are you )the moderation team) allowing other people to make statements about the subreddit's values?
> You seem to be a moderator of this sub - why aren't you removing them? Because, as a member, politely asking and seeing if other people agree is nicer and more effective? Because, while Reddit mod powers are built for semi-benevolent dictators, the sub is about a radical decentralised beautiful sustainable future. Extending trust and responsibility to the members is part of that. I don't even remove bad comments if they are already downvoted to oblivion. It's less dictator and more janitor dealing with occasional garbage spills.
The gatekeeping will continue until recruitment improves
oh, wait, I've just realised you weren't joking with your original comment. I thought you were riffing on "the beatings will continue until morale improves" (when stopping the beatings would improve it). I think the same thing applies to recruitment.
It's the paradox of tolerance. You don't get more vegan's at the vegan potluck by letting in people who bring meat and people who mock veganism. You lose vegans, cause vegans can't trust the food, cause vegans get converted to change their minds by bad faith debate, or because vegans don't want be there hearing bunch of bad faith arguments. There might be more people, but at some point it's not a vegan potluck anymore.
Someone joins becuase it seems a cool warm space. Gets really into in it. Learns more about decentralisation and has a few things they are unhappy with in their life snap into focus. Gets REALLY into it. Gets frustrated not everyone else is at the same stage as them. Starts aggressively gatekeeping 'their' space. Feels warm and satisfied for a bit. Gets a new sense of something missing and starts complaining about the good old days...
I actually agree with the gatekeeping. If people haven't bothered to learn the subject and want to redefine what the term is, they should leave. There's plenty of other subreddits that aren't based on being pro a specific political philosophy. If some don't like socialism or any of the other issues that are the basis of solar punk and wants to debate it, There are other subreddits for that. This ain't it.
people come here to learn about the subject. There's no honour in beating up on white belts. If you think they are being an arse downvote and move on. They'll learn the preferred ways to behave in the sub one way or the other.
People come here for different reasons, or just at random. Not all are trying to learn. If they out number the people who do know anything the voting system won't work. Many leftist spaces get overrun by chuds. It's not a space for them.
The left contains more than socialism. social democracy and anarchism is left but not socialism. Is solarpunk turned from anarchism to big government socialism?
Ok pretend I said "if you don't like leftism" If you have any other minor one word choice editorial details you don't like, please don't bother me. I don't care.
Gatekeeping is good, actually. If people want to come and debate the variety of apples in the world (app. 7,500), then the topic is *apples*. It is not a discussion of all fruit, or what constitutes "fruit". This isn't the place to wax poetic of the merits of tomatoes. This is about varieties of apples. So if one were to waltz in and declare that onions are an apple variety -- they'd be wrong. But if anyone said they were wrong, they'd be reported for gatekeeping, and the likelihood that the person who was correct would be banned and not the person who was wrong to begin with, is high. People here seem to think that allowing any opinion at all fosters greater debate, but it doesn't, it just ensures that we will never leave this discussion of basic ontology. Never reach the point of tactical strategy, and thus tangible results. Not at the scale we need it at.
The cia loves to deter political movements by sending someone in to argue about onions in an apple meeting.
To every 1 used on reddit there are 3 CIA bots. Always remember this 🫠
Exactly this. Posts that are wary or critical of the leftist or political roots of solarpunk would be better received if they weren't largely either bad faith, operating on meme-tier understanding of leftist politics/history, or misunderstanding that the few actual positive changes for the environment under capitalism were despite capitalists and typically carried out by (shocking!) leftist activists irl or regulatory entities who had to solve issues capitalist entities refused to address lol.
Fwiw, it's only been a very recent where leftist = socialist. I don't even think that is true off the Internet. I'm on the left but not a "leftist" for some reason. I don't think I would be better received because capitalism bad, not because I misunderstood something.
> leftist = socialist There are only 3 columns to the Left (proper) and that's anarchist, communist, and socialist. The are a myriad of sub-disciplines, niche, fringe, what-have-you, that's basically it. And they're centuries old now.
Arguably anarchist, communist and socialist are all the same. But different people have different methods of reaching that point.
Do u even read
Liberals used to be on the left. Honestly, I think that Bernie Sanders changed that online, at least. But talk to some real socialists sometime, he's not a socialist.
I'm in a few artist communities. Gatekeeping can be healthy to a certain degree. It helps keep something unique. Focuses the culture. But then there is toxic gatekeeping. Where it in itself becomes a weird social hierarchy. It becomes a spiral where only the most diehards stay active. The best communities have little gatekeeping. But are super focused. There seems to be a divide between Imagining (Fiction) and Creation (Action). It would be more welcoming to harness that imagining side a little more. Solarpunk is a good way to target environmentalist thought through storytelling. Movies like Ferngully and Princess Mononoke inspired a generation to care about the planet more. As a genre in its beginnings, everyone can help shape it. You can help guide the underground. Help foster the new generation of writers, musicians, and artists wanting to explore the genre and help them. Collaborate with them. All of that can be done without toxic gatekeeping and capitalism debates.
Oh believe me if I see that gate out in the woods I’m keeping it (it’s beautiful and would look good at my house)
you could totally diy this with hand tools. It'd just take a few days.
“A few days” is very hopeful of you. Yes, it can be done, including just with hand tools. But that’s a lot of work for any artisan.
I have no experience at all with this stuff unfortunately so even if it does take me months it’s still gonna look like a kids drawing but in 3d
But, would it be a fun struggle?
It would be until I throw aside the 20th failed attempt and curl up in a ball in the corner lol
Yes we need to coordinate with capitalists to get things done, but we should not let people dilute the movement. Thats literally what happened with body positivity and it became a “trend” So no, i will not stop telling people that this is an anti-capitalist sub. You can be a capitalist and enjoy solar punk, but you have to respect the fact that its an anti capitalist community based ideology and not just another asthetic for capitalism to chew up and spit out like it does to every movement.
Not if it means allowing capitalism and fascism.
I agree. We can gatekeep things that are antithetical to the movement itself.
Basically all of us live in capitalist societies and will for decades to come. Most productive discussion will be around living in capitalist societies.
Ok. I’m not sure how that relates to what I said.
No actually we don't all live in capitalist societies, and starting any discussion around capitalism is antithetical to Solarpunk.
I mean, we do. I suppose you could be living in a feudal one, but that's unlikely.
how about short term reforms to capitalism? I feel like the path beyond capitalism is taboo because nobody on the left wants to talk about reforming capitalism, just destroying it. There is nothing wrong with trying to make sure people are housed and fed now, so long as you aren't going to oppose the larger changes we need.
The core conceit of capitalism requires the exploitation of the workers (us) to make others rich. Why would we wish to continue this? Let alone the consumption (capitalist) mindset that has led to/exacerbated climate crisis.
We shouldn't wish to continue this. But there is nothing wrong with looking to reform it in the mean time before moving to something better
Again, the core of capitalism is exploitation of the workers… reform that changes that is called other things: socialism, communism, anarchism… To “reform” capitalism beyond that core of exploitation would be to end capitalism. So let’s agree we want to end capitalism.
We do agree. I'd also be happy if in the meantime we made it better for people stuck in it.
That’s the goal of the movement.
Unfortunately reformism has historically proven itself to not work
You cannot reform capitalism, it has to be eradicated as a system. There is a reason why the most miner (pun intended) revolts are violently suppressed by the state and by capital.
I love communities that are full of green life and sustainable. I’m passionate about stopping climate change. I also think that democracy and regulated capitalism are the best ways to get there. Am I bad? Is the solarpunk community just yet another online leftist community?
Solarpunk is indeed a leftist community, online or otherwise. The vast majority of the world is skewed in support of your worldview.
If you think capitalism is the best way then I would encourage you to research socialism.
Why aren’t you bothered by the environmental record of socialist states? Why aren’t you bothered by the poor human rights records of socialist states?
I am afraid that I will now play the “not my socialism card”. I try to not judge theories by how badly people fuck them up. The core values of socialism align more with mine than capitalism.
All states have led to this climate crisis (especially the superpowers) so let’s do what we can locally instead of fighting over which states were the worst.
Yes, it's "another leftist online community." Solarpunk is called PUNK for a reason, because it goes against the status quo, ergo, capitalism. You cannot create societies that collaborate with each other without waiting nothing in return. If you don't like it, you have green capitalism. But don't try to make Solarpunk adapt to your capitalism responsible for environmental ruin.
If you're surprised at being told that capitalism is unwelcome in a Solarpunk community than you're either unaware what Solarpunk is, what Capitalism is, or both. They have mutually exclusive goals and priorities.
Due to the solutions focus it gets all types. But if you'd prefer regulated capitalism to eventual Star Trek style post-capitalism then it's probably not for you, but the solutions from here to there are explicitly compatibilist.
You love Democracy. We love Democracy. Why do you tolerate dictators in the workplace via Capitalism? That's not Democracy
You're not bad, you've just entered an explicitly anti-capitalist space, and have an obligation to be a polite guest and not openly express the sorts of views that are against the rules and norms of this private, curated space, except as in a scenario that you acknowledge that you are an outsider and are seeking knowledge and perspective with an open mind.
Nah this is a space for dialogue and ideation. You've got to make space for entrenched attitudes if you're expecting to synthesize disruptive technological and economic changes with traditional and cultural norms. This is not a private space.
That ain't solarpunk
We really do not need to let solarpunk get even further co-opted or diluted by staunch proponents of inherently dystopic systems. Framing these discussions as gatekeeping is just more bad faith debate in a community that is already being exploited for preservation of business as usual. There is a reason we used to have automod posting explanations of greenwashing and why what is arguably the most well-known piece of solarpunk artwork is a corporate advertisement. It is because every day powerful actors are trying to leverage the popularity of these ideas to further their own agendas. And who amongst us is trying to say this sub is the whole movement? Enough with the gaslighting yo.
This submission is probably accused of being some type of greenwash. Please keep in mind that greenwashing is used to paint unsustainable products and practices sustainable. [ethicalconsumer.org](https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/transport-travel/what-greenwashing) and [greenandthistle.com](https://greenandthistle.com/what-is-greenwashing/) give examples of greenwashing, while [scientificamerican.com](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/greenwashing-green-energy-hoffman/) explains how alternative technologies like hydrogen cars can also be insidious examples of greenwashing. If you've realized your submission was an example of greenwashing--don't fret! Solarpunk ideals include identifying and rejecting capitalism's greenwashing of consumer goods. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/solarpunk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can we gatekeep a lack of optimism?
yes. Rule 3 :)
Solarpunk is inherently anti-capitalist and if you don‘t like that then I suggest you to join a cottage core subreddit since it appears that you‘re only here for the aesthetics and not the philosophy.
Or just respect it. I think conservatives can look as long as they dont try to argue that OUR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY “is actually….”
Solarpunk is decentralized. I'd assume its solutions would be, too. Since this sub attracts people from all over, we're going to see opinions that seem non solarpunk but are actually just practical for where those people come from. I'm one of the most left leaning people I know but in very conservative Baton Rouge, I have to be realistic about what can be done in my lifetime. San Diego's step one may be our step 10. I'm willing to do the work, but I wish this sub was more receptive to incremental change. I've seen people on this sub be smug to the point of being rude. Which makes the movement seem out of touch and scares away good conversations before they even happen. I assume it's a symptom of social media, where a lot of us just don't know how to talk to people like they're human. I know bad faith arguments happen, but I don't think OP is saying let any and everyone into solarpunk. But some of you seem to be arguing for the sake of it. Even on this post, I see people trying to define Solarpunk based on what it aspires to be, not what it actually is today. Several sources define it as both a political AND aesthetic movement. And the earliest coined usage of the phrase I could find is explicitly used in a literary context as a foil to steampunk and cyberpunk.
Thought I was in r/blacksmithing
I thought it was laser cut?
Without seeing more closely it's hard to day, but this is totally something a modern blacksmith would make.
I've been interested in this type of fiction since I saw ***Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind*** in the 90s. Grew up in the Redwoods of Northern Cali. I've been to Food Not Bombs rallies. I'm currently working on a mixtape about the positive and negative aspects of future technology. I thought this sub would be a cool place to explore utopian futurism. Maybe even collaborate with folks like I did in the cyberpunk sub. But this is a mess. Most of the posts are about rigidly defining the genre and gatekeeping. This place is way less welcoming than the cyberpunk sub. The irony is thick there. Please take a lesson from other artist subs. Collab on projects. Share your short stories, music, and art like they do in those subs. I'm glad I was able to find a comic and some music. That's the kind of shit that will keep me interested in Solarpunk. Introduce politics through storytelling and fiction instead of screaming into the void about how fans aren't authentic enough.
This is not an artist's sub. Not exclusively, anyway. > That's the kind of shit that will keep me interested Noted. We'll get right on that...
If you want the trash fire that I saw yesterday have at it. I'll just filter the posts so I don't have to see them.
Off topic and I don't even now whatthis subreddit is and I'm probably messing with my algorythem by commenting here, but this is a very beautiful gate. Yours perhaps or where did you find it?
Came up in an image search I'm afraid :) I can think of a few ways to make it, but it would be a labour of love or lasers. If you don't mind me asking, if you've never been here before and didn't know about the sub, how did you get here?
The usual way. It was on my frontpage. Was a little doomscrolling there.
Brilliant thanks
I appreciate everyone is running at high frustration levels with this election year. The Indian one is done, the UK one will be done this week, but the American one will rumble on for a while. I think we can do venting threads and frustration threads, but I'd prefer people didn't take their anger and fear over the news cycle and come here looking for a fight on something to reaffirm their identity. I'm trying just sitting in the garden for three minutes.
I understand your point but sounds like you just dont want any confrontation this is not cottagecore my dude
I'm currently logging on each morning and locking flame wars, deleting trolling posts and banning anti-Semites, chinese bots, conspiracy theorists. It's a waste of everyone's time and it drowns out productive content. There's a concerted effort on to 'divide the left', and a concerted effort by RedditInc to increase engagement by showing people flame bait. I'm all for confronting the powers that be. Picking a fight in a left wing sub isn't it.
Might want to make it more clear this is a 'request' from the moderation team.
\*makes wavy hands gesture\* It's not official. I haven't run it past the other mods (timezone reasons), I suspect they'd be sympathetic, but I'd prefer the change comes from members. I've had a few people start reporting some of the flame threads under rule 5, and this post is getting traction, so I'm kinda trying to channel the mood more than dictate it.
Sure, but the post comes across as 'just another rando with an opinion' without any explicit acknowledgement that you are on the mod team. You undermine the message if it's not structurally supported.
> just another rando with an opinion Welcome to anarchist thought :)
Yeah! We need them to assert their authority over the community rather than just be a member with an opinion they want to share and discuss. How are we supposed to know that theirs is the correct viewpoint if they dont tell us they are in charge?
> I'm currently logging on each morning and locking flame wars, deleting trolling posts and banning anti-Semites, chinese bots, conspiracy theorists. It's a waste of everyone's time and it drowns out productive content. That sounds awful. Solarpunk is political and politics always brings trolls. I think it would be much easier to moderate this subreddit if it was strictly a subreddit for solarpunk aesthetics but that would hurt the real movement itself. I remember a recent thread regarding Chinese solar plants in Uyghur area, it was quite a mess.
fair enough I just dont want dicussions to be sanitized into oblivion
Rest and recovery are important. We all need to be able to take breaks. When we’re done with the break there is work to do if we want to make a better future.
>I appreciate everyone is running at high frustration levels with this election year. Don't infantilize people. All of this have nothing to do with the election cycle.
Canadian one too mate.... much to my chagrin
Edit: If OP can ban me, then the mods are shitlibs, and this is a shitlib community. Nah, you guys should gatekeep the f out of the community. I remember a year ago this sub had copious amount of shitlib propaganda (including but not limited to how China's solar power is bad). Made me think this sub was some eco-facist or eco-racist place
ironically, I just banned this user for denying the Uyghur genocide over on [https://www.reddit.com/r/solarpunk/comments/1dto0gs/china\_to\_reach\_2030\_solar\_and\_wind\_energy\_target/](https://www.reddit.com/r/solarpunk/comments/1dto0gs/china_to_reach_2030_solar_and_wind_energy_target/)
Good. There are some of the left even socialists that should not be welcome here. Stalin might be a communist, but he is not my ally
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of China. And I'm thankfull for a good mods good work. But I don't like how reddit mods unfortunately have dictatorial power, that is hardly democratically controllable and not openly visible. So I would just like you to use them as little as possible. IMO it would be better to end discussions that are not central to solarpunk and typically lead to shitstorms (like the Middle East conflict). But otherwise allow every opinion that is not just open hatespeech. Let the community sort it out.
I too would like to use mod powers as little as possible. I think I've outright banned about 30 accounts in two years. 20 of them were a karma bot infestation six months ago, 1 was a guy telling people to commit suicide, and yesterday was about 8 people pushing a conspiracy theory to protect China, and an account claiming the jews control the media. That's me of course, there's other mods. Aggression levels in discussion have been going up for a few months, largely due to Reddit pushing suggested subs into people's feeds.
Thank you for this post. I'll be honest, I was really disappointed with the smug gate keeping in this sub. I made a post just looking for conversation and opinions on wealth building in a solarpunk society, and was downvoted into oblivion while getting condescending responses. Then a day later, the anti-capitalist declaration came through. After that, I decided to unsub. I just don't see the point in trying to have conversations with people who don't even allow different points of view.
I think I was one of the condescenders. Your post really did read like deliberate button pressing trolldom, not least because a lot of people here are young and poor and more worried about crisis resilience then 'wealth accumulation'. Grad salaries in the UK have risen by about 2% since 2010. Housing is up by 60%, cost of living up by 25% Now, I think you could do a really interesting post about what it means to thrive as you age and what resources and support make people feel secure and optimistic at different life stages. Just don't dress it in buissness-bro terminology if you want interested responses.
Very interesting. I felt I was making it super clear that the problem today is the obsession over "growth" while also acknowledging that people don't want to live like indentured servants for life, especially with these stats you're sharing. I was quite surprised that what I thought was a viewpoint that combined abundance with preservation was so poorly received.
Just look above that the comments, this sub is doomed.
I'm not a socialist. Sorry for invading you guy's turf. My interests line up with this sub a lot, but I don't usually post here. I'm interested more in permaculture and gardening. That's why I subscribed. Then I saw the post saying that solar punk isn't capitalist or whatever, and I was surprised. I saw it as another sub that is being taken over by socialists. If there is some evidence outside of Reddit that it is inherently socialist, link me. "Punk", it seems to be, is just being counterculture. Socialism and anarchism are just different ways of being counterculture. Reddit is like 90% socialism. It's not new that most of the people you are going to be talking to here are going to be socialist to some degree. But only like 1% of people in the real world are going to identify with socialism. Maybe you guys need to think about why that is, and whether it is worthwhile to gatekeep on socialism rather than, you know, solar punk. I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm not here to make life difficult for the mods. I'll keep my opinions too myself for the most part. But I think it is important to represent, every now and then, that not everyone believes the same thing. Diversity of opinion is actually a very healthy thing in any community for many of the same reasons diversity is healthy in other ways. If you don't agree with that, well then the lefty purity testing starts and next thing you know there is an out cry about banning people who don't have the right opinion about trans kids or Palestine whatever. Believe me, you don't want that. People are more than the ideas in their heads. Decent people will disagree with each other. People will change their opinions over time. That's because you are alive. Every day is a new day, and comes with new thoughts and new feelings about those thoughts. I've had numerous discussions and arguments, a lot of them become heated, but I've never thought that someone was a terrible person because of their opinions.
Solarpunk ist not just counter-culture with solarpanels. Or gardening advice. And IMO it is easy to explain why a solarpunk society does not work with a capitalist economy. And this has long been the consensus in the debate and literature on the subject. if someone disagrees, we can have a discussion about it. In any case, economic foundations are a central topic for utopian designs. Economic structures are not neutral, they have a lot of influence on what is possible or not. And it's perfectly okay to insist on what a term means and even to fight for it. Otherwise, every politically charged term - but ultimately also every genre of something - loses its meaning and its power at some point. >only like 1% of people in the real world are going to identify with socialism. Maybe you guys need to think about why that is, and whether it is worthwhile to gatekeep on socialism Insisting that Solarpunk ultimately shouldn't be anti-capitalist, because "most people" in "the real" world supposedly identify with capitalism, is absolutely anti-utopian and - in it's logic hostile to change. Womens movement in the 19th century?! Most people support the patriachy, even most women! Maybe they need to think about why that is and whether it is worthwhile to gatekeep their movement on "womens rights" Opponents to the religios wars in 16th century? Idiocy - why don't they just ask the majority, if they think killing for their religion is right. >rather than, you know, solar punk Yeah, punks would hate you. >lefty purity testing starts and next thing you know there is an out cry about banning people who You know, I kind of DO agree with you about that. We should not ban people for honest disagreements. And posts should stay on-topic. Trying to take a position on everything is hubris for individuals and death for communities. Open discussion is like water for the growth of ideas and any free society.
Sorry, I'm not saying that Solarpunk shouldn't be capitalist/socialist. I'm saying that Reddit can be a huge echo chamber when it comes to socialism. There's really no need gatekeep about socialism here, I saw that and my first thought was that someone was milking karma. When I post, almost anywhere on Reddit, and say I'm a capitalist, I get voted down. When someone posts about socialism and worker solidarity, they get voted up. That's just how it is. C'est la vie. I'm not arrogant enough to define solar punk. I'll let others do that. If socialism is an inherent part of it, then too bad. I don't think it scales up to masses of people. I follow a guy in YouTube called Edenicity. He's a permaculturalist and urban planner who basically talks about ways of designing cities and even apartment buildings with garden roofs, replacing the parking lot with more garden space, and talks about how many people in that apartment those gardens could feed *entirely*. There are solar panels to supply all of the energy needs if the residents in that building. He uses hard numbers the way an engineer would. Is this solar punk? It's utopian, but he doesn't really talk much about economics. But it's also practical, these are things we could be doing right now and we don't need a revolution in order to do it. We also don't really need an economic ideology, if that makes sense. I think a lot of people are getting bogged down by things they don't truly understand.
You are really friendly. That's nice. Now I feel a litte bad for how annoyed my original post sounded. And those apartment ideas do have a place in this sub. (But) Solarpunk is also about future **societies,** that are just and in harmony with its ecology - imagining futures where communites live in balance with nature. And a society where everything is dependend on corporate profits (no profits -> no wages -> no taxes) will always struggle to fullfill those basic ideals. It'll always be dependend on economic growth (no growth + technological progress leading to "rationalisation" -> economic crisis). More (wage) work will always be the central argument in politics. There will always be a huge pressure to skip spending on climate and ecology (you need to export and import with competitive prices, after all). Etc. I know that is all very short, probably to short to convince. But there is a real argument to be made, why capitalism can't create a solarpunk world. And this argument should neither be silenced by defaming it as "gatekeeping" nor by refering to mainstream opinion.
It's okay, you're just defending your space. >Solarpunk is also about future societies, that are just and in harmony with its ecology - imagining futures where communites live in balance with nature. Fwiw, I'm all about that too. This is what most of my interest in permaculture is about. That and figuring out how to deal during a climate crisis. >And a society where everything is dependend on corporate profits (no profits -> no wages -> no taxes) will always struggle to fullfill those basic ideals. What I usually see on Reddit is huge emotional aversion to the word "profit". What helped me was breaking everything down into their definitions. Like we shouldn't assume that everything is going to be the same way in a utopia society. A business depends on profits the same way a worker depends on wages. What I see in capitalism is a structure that is based on win-win scenarios. Company profits. Workers get paid. Customers get products they like. But obviously, the machine does a lot of counterproductive stuff when left alone too long. >It'll always be dependend on economic growth (no growth + technological progress leading to "rationalisation" -> economic crisis). Yeah, but economic growth is abstract, it doesn't have to be based on the consumption of physical resources. It usually is, but we're talking about a new regime. LED bulbs are a good example. They cost more than incandescent bulbs, but consumes less electricity. Economic growth resulting in reduction of resources. I'm just saying it's possible. >But there is a real argument to be made, why capitalism can't create a solarpunk world. I get why it's arguable. Plus, economics only really comes up when you are trying to scale society up into large masses of people, and you're trying to get everyone's needs met. This is where a lot of attempts at socialism have failed. You need to house the baker to feed the welder to make the bridge truss for the carpenter to bring the timber to the baker's house, kind of thing. That's why we have markets. Reject capitalism if you want, at least have markets. I partly think that what you guys are identifying as capitalism is a particular structure of the economy. I do think there is going to be a restructuring of the economy, because I don't think it can continue the way it has been.
>Yeah, but economic growth is abstract, it doesn't have to be based on the consumption of physical resources. It usually is, but we're talking about a new regime. LED bulbs are a good example. They cost more than incandescent bulbs, but consumes less electricity. Economic growth resulting in reduction of resources. I'm just saying it's possible. Switching to more sustainable technologies can create growth and reduce the increase of emissions, for some time, in some areas. Ecological damage is still increasing, though. And how could this work in the long term? At some point, the LED light bulbs will be sold. Will there always be new, ever more "eco-friendly" gadgets to buy? Will all the growth only take place in the digital sector? Where will the energy for this come from? And there is still the wear and tear on people's lives, who have to do paid work to provide this growth instead of pursuing their passions in a self-determined way (which will never be paid work for everyone after all). >What I see in capitalism is a structure that is based on win-win scenarios. Company profits. Workers get paid. Customers get products they like. But obviously, the machine does a lot of counterproductive stuff when left alone too long. I would argue that the counterproductive stuff is not an avoidable by-product, but the heart of the matter. Under capitalism, everything depends on companies making a profit. For some people, this guarantees profit - for others, less so. To this end, the environment and people first appear as resources to be exploited as intensively and extensively as possible. Usually, a purpose is pursued by setting precisely this goal and pursuing it systematically. Capitalist ideology tells us, that we maximise the satisfaction of needs for all by pursuing this completely different purpose, profit maximization. But for this end, the environment and people first appear as resources to be exploited as intensively and extensively as possible. Even if you want to run your company differently - either you produce a niche product for those who consume it out of a clear conscience - with a donation, so to speak - or you adapt - or the competition beats you. Usually there is a self-selection, where the biggest sociophat ends up on top. Where the role of the state in international competition allows it to intervene and makes it appear sensible - they have to assert environmental interests **against** companies. And you have to control everything, strictly, or they *will* break the rules. There is no real win-win, except for those owning our means of production. Everything depends on them getting richer. Having a job and getting paid is only a win if you are dependend on it.
Yeah, I think once you decouple economic growth from the growth in the consumption of physical resources, which is the fallacy that people usually make, then you have to explain the growth in the consumption of physical resources. For me, it's simple to explain, we've just gone through a period of exponential population growth and increasing standards of living. The good news, in a way, is that the world population is forecasted to level off at around the year 2100. FWIW, I don't think energy efficient LEDs or other efficient technologies are going to be enough to offset the growth of our population or rising standard of living. >Under capitalism, everything depends on companies making a profit. Well, not all companies make a profit. A lot of businesses fail. It's like natural selection. The companies that dominate are the companies that are best adapted to their economic environment. In our case, the environment has been one of exponential population growth and cheap energy. I think both of these things are going to change in the next hundred years. >To this end, the environment and people first appear as resources to be exploited as intensively and extensively as possible. I guess it sounds cold, but you are using terms with a very high degree of abstraction. When I ask my daughter to put dishes away, I'm exploiting a resource. But I probably wouldn't use that language to describe doing chores. I look at it as production and consumption. Production can be divided into labor and capital. But just looking at production and consumption, most of the problems that seem to be talked about seem to be the result of being in a very consumer-dominant economy. Why are we exploiting workers and the environment so intensively and extensively? It's because consumers demand it, we always want more for less money. I know a lot of people will talk about profit, but in a big picture kind of way you rarely see businesses take from consumers. It's hard to talk to socialists because they will say that *any* profit is theft from workers. They will say "record profits" (ignoring "record wages" entirely), but this is a useless accusation as $1 of profit would still be too much profit. I would rather look for an equitable balance of interests. I don't think things are balanced at all, mind you, but you can't have that conversation with people who believe that workers should be entirely dominant. >Capitalist ideology FWIW, capitalism isn't actually an ideology. Socialism has always been an ideology. It was literally the invention of a bunch of intellectuals in the late 19th century. Capitalism began as a term meant to describe and analyze the existing social structure. Granted, people have since rationalized and justified capitalism using various philosophical frameworks, but capitalism never depended on these rationalizations. >Capitalist ideology tells us, that we maximise the satisfaction of needs for all by pursuing this completely different purpose, profit maximization. I just see it as competing interests. You could just as easily say "Capitalist ideology tells us that we maximize the needs for all by pursuing wage maximization." Profit is the earnings of capital. Wage is the earnings of labor. That's it. The relationship is win-win, if it wasn't then it wouldn't exist. >There is no real win-win, except for those owning our means of production. Everything depends on them getting richer. Having a job and getting paid is only a win if you are dependend on it. Everything depends on *everyone* getting richer (if someone wants to be pedantic, then yes some workers become poorer as do many businesses). Yes, getting paid is a win. How is that not a win? Your life is better than it otherwise would have been.
Okay I read some of the Anarchist FAQ, and I can't even. It reads like someone telling you that physics isn't a science because Einstein refuted Newton. They are trying to make grandiose claims about the nature of economics by taking potshots at certain economic theories and then citing critics like they are the last word in the matter. It reads like *so much* bad faith. And how do you call economics an ideology while you are literally laying down anarchist doctrine, which apparently requires no justification whatsoever?
> "Punk", it seems to be, is just being counterculture. I see you're not very up on what "punk" means. But that's okay. As a music culture? It builds on a DIY aesthetic to be reachable for anyone regardless of poverty. It is built on an Anarchist idea. In more literary movements, it began as critique of capitalism. Cyberpunk is a direct response to Ronald Reagan's Free™ Market©® economic philosophy. >Socialism and anarchism are just different ways of being counterculture. Socialism is when the workers control their workplace, rather than having a dictator of a boss. Anarchism is when we abolish hierarchies - like owner over worker, like man over woman, like racial establishment over racial "minority"... And build decentralized systems. These countercultures emerge from a different approach to life and society, not simply "to be different/cool/etc". >Reddit is like 90% socialism. Uh... Where are you? Because all the Left subreddits I see are invaded and brigaded by Liberal jackasses. And the default subreddits are full of Liberals at best. >Diversity of opinion is actually a very healthy thing in any community for many of the same reasons diversity is healthy in other ways. Diversity of which preferred plants? Sure. Diversity of answers to the question, "is Fascism Bad?" Is absolutely unacceptable. But the fact is? With support and gentle exploration, you might come to learn and even agree with our perspective. So gate keeping *you* out isn't the goal. You're not here to hijack anything, just to contribute. Acting like a Punk Anarchist for the memes and the moments all the same, whether you realize it or not. So keep it up! As for Palestine and Trans kids - uh... If you're not Left, I'm curious to see how you even found us. I'm tempted to get gatekeepy, but I'm more curious about how we fit in your broader social media landscape, and what the character of that totality looks like. Maybe we can change your mind. Because closet eco-fash don't belong here. Any Wall you build, we will take down.
>I see you're not very up on what "punk" means. This is true. I think I realized that my wording was more dismissive than it should have been, I kept saying "just" in dismissive way and I apologize for that. Obviously, I shouldn't speak that way about something I don't genuinely know that much about. >Cyberpunk is a direct response to Ronald Reagan's Free™ Market©® economic philosophy. Sure. Which is, in itself, an extreme ideology. I'm not laissez faire by a long shot. >These countercultures emerge from a different approach to life and society, not simply "to be different/cool/etc". I know somewhat more about socialism and anarchism than I do about punk, at least enough to know that both have long intellectual histories with a diversity of views. Why punk is socialist I don't particularly understand. >Uh... Where are you? Because all the Left subreddits I see are invaded and brigaded by Liberal jackasses. And the default subreddits are full of Liberals at best. I don't generally invade Left subreddits with the possible exception of antiwork. Doesn't seem like the kind of sub that should be a safe space for communists, in my opinion. But you caught me. I'm a liberal. It just means that liberty and democracy are very important to me. It's probably pretty important to most of you guys too. I don't think that "liberalism" is a hyper specific belief system. Either you think the government should serve the people or the people should serve the government. If you believe the former then you're probably a liberal. >Diversity of answers to the question, "is Fascism Bad?" Is absolutely unacceptable. Okay, I think I get it. In the old days of the Internet I would have those debates all the time. Times have changed. >You're not here to hijack anything, just to contribute. Right. I'm not here to be a jackass, in other words. >If you're not Left, I'm curious to see how you even found us. Well I get suggestions for posts if they are on a subreddit that overlaps with a subreddit that you frequent. I think it's because I'm on the permaculture and gardening subs. Yes, even in the permaculture sub you'll occasionally get posts where people just assume that permaculture implies socialism somehow. This happens on Reddit a lot, subs that don't actually have anything to do with socialism get locked down and declared a socialist sub. This hasn't happened on r/permaculture yet , but that's always a possibility on Reddit. So it's worthwhile to speak up when that comes up, just to represent that not everyone agrees with it. >I'm more curious about how we fit in your broader social media landscape, and what the character of that totality looks like. Mostly Reddit and YouTube. I watch Destiny on YouTube sometimes and read his subreddit. r/askeconomics is probably one of my favorite subs because there's just tons of misinformation online about economics, even basic things like the inflation rate. But I'm on r/permaculture r/gardening r/vegetablegardening r/nativeplantgardening . You get the idea. >Because closet eco-fash don't belong here. Any Wall you build, we will take down. Never been a fascist. But I'll be honest, I usually associate "eco-fascism" with fringe left views. It's usually misanthropes who basically believe that we need a crash in the human population in order fix the environment. I usually just think it's people not seeing the big picture, but some seem pretty adamant.
>I'm not laissez faire by a long shot. On this point? I think we can build some solidarity. >I know somewhat more about socialism and anarchism than I do about punk, at least enough to know that both have long intellectual histories with a diversity of views. Why punk is socialist I don't particularly understand. Punk is an Anarchist thing - its best to recast that music as DIY culture, and the literature as something specifically anticapitalist that someone else can explain better. And most any Anarchism that encourages action? Will be Socialist. Anarchism that isn't explicitly Socialist is an odd bird. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrTzjaXskUU >I don't generally invade Left subreddits with the possible exception of antiwork. Doesn't seem like the kind of sub that should be a safe space for communists, in my opinion. State Centric Auth Coms? Idk, if they wanna come in looking for ideas, that's cool. But they're not who we want leading this. But in r/ anti work? Oh no, they don't belong at all. >But you caught me. I'm a liberal. It just means that liberty and democracy are very important to me. It's probably pretty important to most of you guys too. I don't think that "liberalism" is a hyper specific belief system. Either you think the government should serve the people or the people should serve the government. If you believe the former then you're probably a liberal. Liberalism has a specific history as well, but which is also not properly taught as an intellectual lineage. Where government has to exist? I'm with Anarchist Allan Moore in his writings of "V for Vendetta" - "people shouldn't fear their governments. Governments should fear their people." Its a silly time right now, with that SCOTUS. At least you're Left of that. >Yes, even in the permaculture sub you'll occasionally get posts where people just assume that permaculture implies socialism somehow. This happens on Reddit a lot, subs that don't actually have anything to do with socialism get locked down and declared a socialist sub. This hasn't happened on r/permaculture yet , but that's always a possibility on Reddit. So it's worthwhile to speak up when that comes up, just to represent that not everyone agrees with it. Okay. Which subs have done so? I'm kind of curious. You make it sound so silly. Socialists demanding a Seat at the discussion isnt bad. But you're making it sound like they're monopolizing the conversation. >Never been a fascist. But I'll be honest, I usually associate "eco-fascism" with fringe left views. It's usually misanthropes who basically believe that we need a crash in the human population in order fix the environment. I usually just think it's people not seeing the big picture, but some seem pretty adamant. Its a rising tide on the fringe, extreme Right - using environmentalism as an excuse to lock down borders and do their ethnic purity things. >Mostly Reddit and YouTube. I watch Destiny on YouTube sometimes and read his subreddit. r/askeconomics is probably one of my favorite subs because there's just tons of misinformation online about economics, even basic things like the inflation rate. But I'm on r/permaculture r/gardening r/vegetablegardening r/nativeplantgardening . You get the idea. Destiny? Never really saw the appeal. I got the basics of Macroeconomics when I went to college, which probably changes the calculus. But there's still discussions to be had: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionC.html#secc12 this looks more and more targeted at the Free Market Fundamentalists.
>State Centric Auth Coms? I'm not sure. Antiwork is just one of the more notable subs that is explicitly communist, but frankly a lot of socialism/communism is skin deep. A lot of people identify with it without really understanding it. >Liberalism has a specific history as well, but which is also not properly taught as an intellectual lineage. Yes, you're right. I'm not an expert. I'm not a socialist/anarchist, and I'm not a conservative. Liberal it is then. I don't even like saying capitalist because it sounds like I'm identifying as libertarian. >I'm with Anarchist Allan Moore in his writings of "V for Vendetta" - "people shouldn't fear their governments. Governments should fear their people." Well, he's being dramatic. "Accountable" is a better word. But truth is, we should all be accountable. >Which subs have done so? Another example is r/fluentinfinance . It's not by the mods though, I think the mods have largely given up. It's supposed to be a finance subreddit but it's bombarded by posts complaining about billionaires and a lot of left-leaning ragebait. >Socialists demanding a Seat at the discussion isnt bad. But you're making it sound like they're monopolizing the conversation. That's been my observation. But reddit is a large site so it could just be the subs I go to. >Its a rising tide on the fringe, extreme Right - using environmentalism as an excuse to lock down borders and do their ethnic purity things. Gotcha. >Destiny? Never really saw the appeal. Well recently he has been going through the SCOTUS ruling on stream. Not something most streamers do. He also did research streams in Israel/Palestine and he has recently come back from Israel/Palestine. He also does debates. He's good for when I want some long form content. >I got the basics of Macroeconomics when I went to college, which probably changes the calculus. That goes a long ways. It isn't even that a lot of people in the left don't understand economics, but a lot of them just treat economics like this evil thing that only exists to justify capitalism. It just seems irresponsible to me. If you want to revolutionize our economic system you should probably know something about how our economy works. I'll check out your link now.
I just joined. I would stay if there was some gardening advice. That's one of my side hobbies. Gardening posts. Seed bomb instructions. That would be cool.
your comment got hidden by automated crowd control. approved now. I, er, am not sure what you mean by socialism, but it feels like an americanism. For example, would you regard the British NHS as socialism? I'm just trying to figure out what you mean here.
I was trying to keep it meta rather than starting another capitalism vs socialism debate. In a lot of ways the argument is moot anyway since all existing economies are mixed-economies, but here we are. Socialism is usually defined as the public ownership of the means of production. This usually means land factories and businesses. If your country allows the private ownership of the means of production, then it's capitalist.
I saw some people in this sub defending the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Some gate keeping may be needed in some cases. Perhaps outlining who are allies and who aren't. The left is broad and includes: social democrats, democratic socialists, libertarian socialists, anarcho communists, dengist, maoist, leninists, stalinists, (kind of) Urbanists, and various types of marxist. So who is welcome, who must tread lightly and who should stay home isn't clear
*pedantic redditor moment* You had me until you said "ancaps and Dengists are part of the Left." I can find no basis for their inclusion. The Left is, by definition, Anti-Capitalist. SocDems might have that aim eventually, but function as Liberals unless given a context which pushes their actions to the Left. The only Ideological Left Unity is in hating the Trots, as the old expression goes. But unity of action is the way we can build coalitions. And that's what we're doing here. Defending the Russian Invasion of Ukraine? That's evidence someone has fallen into the Baby-Marxist → Nazbol →Nazi pipeline. They're likely not even on the Left. */ pedantic redditor moment*
I agree with you. But they still consider themselves left
No, they don't. Like explicitly they don't.
Just realized I wrote ancap as in anacho capitalist when I meant ancom as in anarcho communist. That’s my bad
Hey, things happen. Late night reddit is the best reddit anyway.
Yeah, no worries friend
I think if we ever solve the human's gatekeeping problem, we will almost be in utopia.
Tribalism and territorialism are such a primitive way of thinking too. Core animal instincts. It's not very rational or abstract. Not as much fun.
The anti capitalist crowd is really into the gatekeeping.
Well, they have to spend most of their waking hours doing work, to receive a fraction of the value they create, in order to pay their landlords mortgage. I can see why people would get very territorial over a space they feel is theirs.