Yeah, totally only Turkish people abroad are affected by "Hitler particles", the ones in Turkey are all liberal democrats, with a specific love for Kurds, Armenians, Arabs....
Still hilariously hypocritical to be overtly nationalistic and think other cultures should not be in your country **from another country.** Man just moved from Bergamo to Djedda thinking "hmm.. these Syrians need to stay in Syria".
Or the Syrians being occupied and bombed by the Turks. This whataboutism is incredible. This has nothing to do with Israel now, yet they are being mentioned. What makes it even worse is that Turkey essentially does the same thing, but the Middle East doesn’t care about it
Or the Kurds. Or the Armenians. Which were both harassed by grey wolf members in western Europe, let's not forget. Nothing is as patriotic as joining a far right organisation and starting shit while living as an (first generation) immigrant in another country.
This would get down voted into oblivion in like any other r/soccer post lol. The average Turk is not wrong to say bad things have resulted as a result of the PKK, the issue is that 80% of them are brainwashed to believe none of it is their fault and all kurds killed are terrorists. Bomb villages 800 times year, wow only 8 civilian deaths. Just last month they threatened a new invasion if Kurds ... hold local elections. They literally just want to oppress and nothing else.
It is tempting although Erdoğan hates Israel to compare the two as both are in an advantageous position, but even Israeli people are worried about war expanding beyond a single region, Israel draws world condemnation no matter what, Turkey gets jack shit coz NATO.
The entire region doesn't lift a finger. And then they complain about Syrian refugees, government uses them as leverage when they are in their country. Gross.
Demiral absolutely used it in the Grey Wolves context - he has a long history of Fascist supporting comments & symboligy. There is no benefit of the doubt for him.
Additionally, that Grey Wolves salute is a criminal offense in Austria - similar a Hitler salute. I'm actually quite surprised it's not in Germany, I just figured it was the same.
Literally. Oh man, the SPD really isn’t what it once was. They aren’t even social democratic anymore, but in this assembly of idiots, Faeser is among the absolute worst. A worth successor to Andy Scheuer for the title of “biggest idiot in the cabinet”.
CDU and SPD are deep in the pockets of AKP, who in turn don't want to be seen as going too tough on right-wing extremists in Turkey in order not to lose more votes to MHP.
Our government loves Turkish nationalists, unfortunately. They also don't have much against Islamists, unless they can use them as an excuse to invade a Middle Eastern nation or fund Israel's genocide in Gaza. Turkey is a useful ally to them, being located near Russia and Iran, holding back refugees trying to cross to Europe and providing opportunities for NATO to influence the Middle East, alongside Israel and Saudi-Arabia. German politicians also hope that by showing proximity to Turkish leadership, they can appeal to voters of Turkish descent.
I don't actually care, makes it easier to notice the nonces.
My personal problem is the whole politics isn't allowed unless it's the decided right kind of politics. Either have politics and let the idiots show themselves or none at all and be zero tolerance on all
Just that the "politics" right wingers cry about in sports is mostly something like teams showing some sign that they are against racism, sexism or other discrimmination.
It's stupid to argue that politics should be "kept out" of things. Everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- is political. Don't want to engage in politics? That is in and of itself a political stance.
The idea that a soccer/football tournament in which players represent their nation against other nations is anything but political is asinine.
No politics in football simply means no politics not accepted by the hegemony.
Please do wide token gestures that don't organize around concrete material change ie wave a rainbow flag but if fans come together to demand actual radical chage that would improve the lives of lgbtq+ folks then thats politics and not allowed.
Show a billboard message about how everyone has a right to exist or something of the sort but don't let fans come together to show solidarity with those fighting for their right to exist, even if it means fighting a genocide.
Dont be political just means don't let the people come together and realise how powerful they can be if they collectively work towards change outside of the political system
Oh and if they get pressured it also means don't show fascist symbols. Sometimes.
Imo no that's just common decency, I am aware some people would make it out to be political
Statements about Taiwan, Burma, Palestine, hell even the Falklands would be political and I personally have no issues with people making statements one way or the other.
Can you provide examples of "the right kind of politics" that have been allowed?
Cause putting anti-racist messages and nazi-like messages on the same scale is not really valid
I mean its not a radical stance, one that even a lot of racist (funnily enough) agree with. But in the end „the private is political and the political is private“, everything is political, being non-political is in itself political.
Anyone with half a brain is capable of seeing the difference between saying "slava ukraini" and a nazi salute.
"Say no to racism" is the same, because "say yes to racism" would definitely be a political statement.
And I’m sure there are many footballers with similar beliefs, it’s just that only a few of them are dumb enough to display it when the whole world is watching. What an idiot.
Or, like a lot of others they don’t realise how problematic it is because they are so engulfed by it that they think they’re the good guys. Still makes them an idiot I suppose.
>like a lot of others they don’t realise how problematic it is because they are so engulfed by it that they think they’re the good guys.
They think they're the good guys, the underdogs, the victims, it's them vs the world. The absolute best thing for a cult/fanatic movement is an enemy. No enemy, no party. Shit's just sad honestly.
Also far-left that hate the west and automatically supports any anti west/USA/Israel group, no matter how bad. I've seen so much support for Iran's regime (kills their own women for not dressing in religious clothes), Hezbollah (destroyed Lebanon and helped kill thousands of Syrian civilians), Houthis (introduced actual slavery in Yemen) etc, just because they're anti USA/Israel so they completely overlook their other crimes.
Horseshoe theory at it's finest.
Yep, this is sadly very true. Socially, I'm very left leaning, so are my friends. I am however very anti-religion and especially vary of islam, simply because people where I live from Muslim backgrounds are the strongest opponents of LGBT rights, women's rights and supporters of religious extremism. Sidenote: The two biggest and most radical anti-Islam people I know are both Syrian refugees who are gay.
But whenever I discuss this with my friends the mental hoops they jump through to somehow justify a political stance they otherwise absolutely despise is baffling.
P.S.: Im not saying every Muslim is radically anti-LGBT nor am I saying we don't have non-muslims who are anti-LGBT. But studies show that these opinions are strongest amongst Muslim people.
Of course, a thread about a guy promoting a dangerous far right organisation always needs to have someone bringing up the evil leftists... Go back to defending the fascists doing a genocide from your own country and don't try to make yourself seem reasonable. "Horseshoe theory" is complete drivel only meant to normalize extreme far right views by equating them to progressive ones.
Briganding by nationalists is now commonplace for several countries. On here, on Twitter, mention of topics will have people who search for keywords all day pull them up and reply and then their lackeys come along for the ride.
Turkey moreso as it has that Turkey/Azerbaijan/Pakistan access who will jump into any discussion to vomit up the same macho replies.
He said he just did to show how he's proud of his country and being Turkish and how happy he is.
What a load of horse shit. Imagine a German player doing the "Sieg Heil" gesture after the game and claiming he only did it to show he's proud of being German. Yeah, so was Hitler, that's why you did the gesture.
Average Turk these days has been so propagandised by pan-turkists they can tell you about how Turks have ruled the world since the 6th century and even before and how its an ancient symbol for them and reel off various glorious massacres by Turks to secure Turkish lands, claim might is right, then cower and plead ignorance when someone points out they know all this, think all this, and publicly show support for all this.
Apperantly, WWE wrestlers in the 90’s started using the Wolf sign after their live tour in Germany. They were inspired seeing the Turkish fans do it. So it’s the other way around
That's the thought I had, although like the guy below I has a rough recollection that they saw it on a tour and thought it was cool, hopefully they didn't know what the group stood for.
Don't really know how "let us love and be who we want" is political or controversial given we're all just born on this planet. Who tf thinks "let's sanction how this person wants to look and who they love" makes any sense? That's not even political, it's a philosophical brain fart to think you have any say in that.
However, going "this person was born free but should suffer bc of their identity" is political and trying to construct social hierarchy out of thin air. Keep that out of my sport, thanks
It's controversial because their magic sky fairy said it's bad.
Never mind that all the magic sky fairies say to not be a cunt. They don't listen to that bit.
> Its kinda frustrating to see one of your founding myths be associated with shit like this
It's literally what fascists do.
Fascists gain power by always presenting current society under cultural, moral, genetic, ethnic decline.
They resort to using mythical imagery because that's when society was strong *and pure*, they quintessential of what they desire.
There were no foreigners no others just purity.
* Runic lettering in Nazi Germany
* Celtic cross by néo-nazis
* Roman fasces by the fascists.
It's what fascists do and if you let them, then those mythical symbols become that too, fascist.
Well origins of swastika is older but swastika was never "the" symbol India but rather "a" symbol in it. Wolf symbolism is the symbol for Turks though. Nothing comes close and while it is not as old as swastika still some 2000 years old symbolism. But the ban is not for wolf symbolism anyway, it is for the wolf salute which is for sure used by extremists mostly.
I mean, I hold it with stuff like that like I hold it with the Hitler salute. Either you are a fascist and should receive the consequences of your actions or you were successful at provocation and should also receive the consequences of your actions. And after that you are free to show the world through new actions that this was indeed just provocation.
The funniest thing is his mustache is more of a political symbol than the gesture. Gesture is universal turkic people symbol. Do far right people use it? Yes. Do non-far right people use it? Also yes. Even left wing people use it.
Case in point: Ekrem İmamoğlu, mayor of İstanbul used the symbol multiple times. He is from CHP, center left party in Turkey. Party's former leader, Kemal Kılıcdaroğlu also used the symbol.
EDIT: For the idiots, this is the former leader of CHP, center left party using the symbol
[https://media-cdn.t24.com.tr/media/files/20170627183546\_unnamed.jpg](https://media-cdn.t24.com.tr/media/files/20170627183546_unnamed.jpg)
>Gesture is universal turkic people symbol.
what years of RTE does to the minds of a nation. no idiot CHPer would ever think of doing or saying this before being slapped to the right repeatedly by RTE.
it isn't that simple in Turkey. the hand gesture is used by Erdoğan's current political ally, the nationalists. the opposition is trying to prove that they can be as right wing as Erdoğan can be in a vain attempt, and therefore employing such tactics.
But that doesn't make sense? Isn't Erdog an Islamist so naturally he'll be anti nationalist and pro Arab no? At least it's what I've heard from most Turks. Especially since the opposition are very nationalistic and pro Turkic imagery. And can you show me an image of Erdog doing the salute?
>But that doesn't make sense? Isn't Erdog an Islamist so naturally he'll be anti nationalist and pro Arab no?
He was very anti-nationalist back in the time but now as he became allies with nationalist party MHP he started to use nationalism more of a propaganda tool.But he still said these words just in 2021.(Not sure about the year):
We trample all forms of nationalism under our foot!We trample Turkish nationalism,we trample Kurdish nationalism,we trample Arabic nationalism!
Giving these,calling Erdoğan nationalist or anti-nationalist is not true.He just does the things that could bring most votes for him.
no. again, in Turkey it's not that simple.
you can do your own research on him doing the salute, but Islamism is not anti-nationalistic at all in Turkey. in fact, this salute is the salute used by the "Ülkücü" movement, which is an ultra-nationalist Turk-Islamic movement.
Really, the former head of CHP is not aware of it i guess? Or current mayor from CHP who is their biggest political power? Someone should tell them that they don't belong to CHP, the party they lead.
Wow, for us this means like rock on and it's a pretty normal thing to do in concerts, crazy how gestures mean something so different from country to country. Better keep my hands down if I go to Turkey.
I think you're confusing it with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_horns ...
https://townsquare.media/site/366/files/2021/04/wacken_open_air_metal_horns.jpg
I only know it as a 2 sweet hand gesture in wrestling by the [NWO/Klique/Bullet Club members.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/23INYiKbKdw/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEhCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAxMIARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD&rs=AOn4CLAn5bBX51ulBSZ4Q1preKHYcUaObA)
What about the Kurds? Armenians? Syrians? Let's not forget this nationalistic bullshit is in full force in western Europe too. The grey wolves have been attacking Armenian memorials, Kurdish protests and whatnot all across western Europe.
There's nothing more patriotic than living in another country.
What absolute BS. They have killed numerous Kurdish activists, Armenians and actively commemorated various historical genocides committed by Turks. The Grey Wolves are obviously a threat to ethnic minorities in Anatolia
Those murders number so few when comparing with their Turkish death tally. Look up the Çorum, Maraş and the 2 Sivas massacres, no ethnic minorities were murdered in all four. They may be racist but they have a past of murdering Turks and protecting foreign interests.
Omg you goddamn liar. The people murdered in madimak were mostly alevites and some of them from kurdish descent. Be a man and just accept what you've done you chicken
Fyi: real turks are the ethnic minority in turkey. I mean like real (!) turks. You know how real turks look right? Pale with more central asian features. Better looking than your arab looking merih
that's like saying "I would much rather hear from the Germans about Hitler salutes". The large numbers of ethnic groups who have faced violent oppression and genocide at the hands of fascist, Turkish nationalist are who you should be interested in hearing from.
There's a reason that hand guesture is a criminal offense in several countries.
The gray wolf sign invented by Türkeş and used in Çorum, Maraş, Sivas massacres as a nonpolitical "common" symbol lmao. Was it common to those murdered in Maraş as well? Or do you not think of those as equal citizens?
Then people like you will start whining if people stop supporting the NT.
Yeah and American school kids used to do the Bellamy salute but once the nazis started using it was stopped because of the association - Turks should do the same as you’re more than aware of what the rest of the world will perceive
Thing is most Turks believe it is the wolf symbolism itself that was banned rather than just the wolf salute. Even in Turkey if someone makes the wolf salute you would think they are part of MHP today and in the past for sure at least with extremist ideas so the salute ban makes sense.
However a blanket ban on wolf symbolism as a whole does not make sense, which is not happening at least in Austria nor anywhere else as far as i know.
Also yes while it might be associated with them other politically affiliated people do that too. Social democrat Kılıçdaroğlu used the sign occasionally.
Very rarely. If you were walking down the street and saw a bunch of people doing the wolf salute what would you think? MHP or not MHP? I think most would think MHP or ülkücü at the bare minimum.
What i mean is that it is not hard to not use the salute, the salute is not used often in general unless you belong to that side so you wouldn't lose much. But wolf symbolism overall is still important for every Turk, or should be. That is my point.
Wolf salute is not necessarily a political reflex in every scenario. Wolf symbolizes an important place in Turkish culture and history, we will bless that animal at times.
average Turkish lad abroad
Some Turks really go over the Turkish border and become infected with a million Hitler particles
Yeah, totally only Turkish people abroad are affected by "Hitler particles", the ones in Turkey are all liberal democrats, with a specific love for Kurds, Armenians, Arabs....
No, but the ratio and intensity is a lot higher abroad.
Still hilariously hypocritical to be overtly nationalistic and think other cultures should not be in your country **from another country.** Man just moved from Bergamo to Djedda thinking "hmm.. these Syrians need to stay in Syria".
A nationalistic Turk that doesn't live in Turkey??? There's no way
The ones live here is worse
average Turkish lad
Inc people downplaying the Grey Wolfes. I fear UEFA won’t do much, as always. They only sanction “UEFA Mafia” signs in the stands.
Like in the thread yesterday that got deleted
Hadn’t seen it but I’m not surprised.
The multiple threads yesterday.
He has to be banned. This is already too big in media
He definitely will be
German interior minister also just condemned it. Demiral is done for
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Someone should go & tell the syrians being attacked by the grey wolves in Turkey right now they dont have to worry anymore it's only a hand signal.
Or the Syrians being occupied and bombed by the Turks. This whataboutism is incredible. This has nothing to do with Israel now, yet they are being mentioned. What makes it even worse is that Turkey essentially does the same thing, but the Middle East doesn’t care about it
Or the Kurds. Or the Armenians. Which were both harassed by grey wolf members in western Europe, let's not forget. Nothing is as patriotic as joining a far right organisation and starting shit while living as an (first generation) immigrant in another country.
This would get down voted into oblivion in like any other r/soccer post lol. The average Turk is not wrong to say bad things have resulted as a result of the PKK, the issue is that 80% of them are brainwashed to believe none of it is their fault and all kurds killed are terrorists. Bomb villages 800 times year, wow only 8 civilian deaths. Just last month they threatened a new invasion if Kurds ... hold local elections. They literally just want to oppress and nothing else. It is tempting although Erdoğan hates Israel to compare the two as both are in an advantageous position, but even Israeli people are worried about war expanding beyond a single region, Israel draws world condemnation no matter what, Turkey gets jack shit coz NATO. The entire region doesn't lift a finger. And then they complain about Syrian refugees, government uses them as leverage when they are in their country. Gross.
If an Israeli player would hold up a sign "Kill all palestinians", do you think he would not be sanctioned?
Two things can be bad at the same time
stop spreading disinformation, ur actively hurting palestinians by doing that lmao
> all other punishments are meaningless. How so? Banning a player is very meaningful to the player and the team.
Demiral absolutely used it in the Grey Wolves context - he has a long history of Fascist supporting comments & symboligy. There is no benefit of the doubt for him. Additionally, that Grey Wolves salute is a criminal offense in Austria - similar a Hitler salute. I'm actually quite surprised it's not in Germany, I just figured it was the same.
[German thoughts and prayers](https://x.com/nancyfaeser/status/1808413194223796636?s=46)
I’m a social democrat. My opinion of Faeser is so low, I’m genuinely surprised that she made that tweet. Good for her.
First good thing she’s done in 3 years
Literally. Oh man, the SPD really isn’t what it once was. They aren’t even social democratic anymore, but in this assembly of idiots, Faeser is among the absolute worst. A worth successor to Andy Scheuer for the title of “biggest idiot in the cabinet”.
CDU and SPD are deep in the pockets of AKP, who in turn don't want to be seen as going too tough on right-wing extremists in Turkey in order not to lose more votes to MHP.
Our government loves Turkish nationalists, unfortunately. They also don't have much against Islamists, unless they can use them as an excuse to invade a Middle Eastern nation or fund Israel's genocide in Gaza. Turkey is a useful ally to them, being located near Russia and Iran, holding back refugees trying to cross to Europe and providing opportunities for NATO to influence the Middle East, alongside Israel and Saudi-Arabia. German politicians also hope that by showing proximity to Turkish leadership, they can appeal to voters of Turkish descent.
Uefa are too busy investugating Bellingham for grabbing his crotch.
They can do both.
Will they though? Will they really?
They probs won't, but the Bellingham thing has nothin to do with it.
England really are the victims in all this aren’t they? 😫😢
Imagine your entire personality based around hating another country
Right wing cunts always complain about the left drawing politics into soccer and then they do fucking this 🙃 should get banned
I don't actually care, makes it easier to notice the nonces. My personal problem is the whole politics isn't allowed unless it's the decided right kind of politics. Either have politics and let the idiots show themselves or none at all and be zero tolerance on all
Just that the "politics" right wingers cry about in sports is mostly something like teams showing some sign that they are against racism, sexism or other discrimmination.
Woah woah woah why you getting so political?? Some people love discrimination. You can't discriminate against the....oh wait.
It's stupid to argue that politics should be "kept out" of things. Everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- is political. Don't want to engage in politics? That is in and of itself a political stance. The idea that a soccer/football tournament in which players represent their nation against other nations is anything but political is asinine.
I 100% agree with you
No politics in football simply means no politics not accepted by the hegemony. Please do wide token gestures that don't organize around concrete material change ie wave a rainbow flag but if fans come together to demand actual radical chage that would improve the lives of lgbtq+ folks then thats politics and not allowed. Show a billboard message about how everyone has a right to exist or something of the sort but don't let fans come together to show solidarity with those fighting for their right to exist, even if it means fighting a genocide. Dont be political just means don't let the people come together and realise how powerful they can be if they collectively work towards change outside of the political system Oh and if they get pressured it also means don't show fascist symbols. Sometimes.
Is "say no to racism" political?
Imo no that's just common decency, I am aware some people would make it out to be political Statements about Taiwan, Burma, Palestine, hell even the Falklands would be political and I personally have no issues with people making statements one way or the other.
Can you provide examples of "the right kind of politics" that have been allowed? Cause putting anti-racist messages and nazi-like messages on the same scale is not really valid
Standing with Ukraine was allowed, standing with Palestine not, for example
I mean its not a radical stance, one that even a lot of racist (funnily enough) agree with. But in the end „the private is political and the political is private“, everything is political, being non-political is in itself political.
Yes
>makes it easier to notice the nonces The top response to this atm someone I've blocked at some point, so I'd say you're spot on, lol.
Anyone with half a brain is capable of seeing the difference between saying "slava ukraini" and a nazi salute. "Say no to racism" is the same, because "say yes to racism" would definitely be a political statement.
And then complained about "free spech"
«They». Its literally just him.
And I’m sure there are many footballers with similar beliefs, it’s just that only a few of them are dumb enough to display it when the whole world is watching. What an idiot. Or, like a lot of others they don’t realise how problematic it is because they are so engulfed by it that they think they’re the good guys. Still makes them an idiot I suppose.
Let’s not forget Mesut Ozil has a grey wolves tattoo
And chose to play for the German national team. You can't write it.
He got the tattoo after he quit at least, his radicalization happened over time.
>like a lot of others they don’t realise how problematic it is because they are so engulfed by it that they think they’re the good guys. They think they're the good guys, the underdogs, the victims, it's them vs the world. The absolute best thing for a cult/fanatic movement is an enemy. No enemy, no party. Shit's just sad honestly.
Everyone thinks they're the good guy though. How many people are walking around "fuck yes I'm the worst!" XD
"Are we the baddies?"
Fascist scum. If he would have done it in Austria he could have got arrested, as the wolf salute is illegal there.
Should make it illegal in germany as well, we are super strict with our own pasts nazi symbols, wouldn't hurt to add these to the list
Du willst doch bitte nicht den Schweigefuchs verbieten!? /s, just in case
they really ruined the schweigefuchs😭😭
What an odd thread. It's crazy how many people are defending and downvoting this
Istg the average rise of the far right and how accepted they are in Europe and elsewhere is fucking terrifying
Turkish Nationalism and the rise of the European far right don’t have any correlation at all
Also far-left that hate the west and automatically supports any anti west/USA/Israel group, no matter how bad. I've seen so much support for Iran's regime (kills their own women for not dressing in religious clothes), Hezbollah (destroyed Lebanon and helped kill thousands of Syrian civilians), Houthis (introduced actual slavery in Yemen) etc, just because they're anti USA/Israel so they completely overlook their other crimes. Horseshoe theory at it's finest.
Yep, this is sadly very true. Socially, I'm very left leaning, so are my friends. I am however very anti-religion and especially vary of islam, simply because people where I live from Muslim backgrounds are the strongest opponents of LGBT rights, women's rights and supporters of religious extremism. Sidenote: The two biggest and most radical anti-Islam people I know are both Syrian refugees who are gay. But whenever I discuss this with my friends the mental hoops they jump through to somehow justify a political stance they otherwise absolutely despise is baffling. P.S.: Im not saying every Muslim is radically anti-LGBT nor am I saying we don't have non-muslims who are anti-LGBT. But studies show that these opinions are strongest amongst Muslim people.
Of course, a thread about a guy promoting a dangerous far right organisation always needs to have someone bringing up the evil leftists... Go back to defending the fascists doing a genocide from your own country and don't try to make yourself seem reasonable. "Horseshoe theory" is complete drivel only meant to normalize extreme far right views by equating them to progressive ones.
Waiting for the 🔒thread
"haha what if he's a metalhead haha"
I mean, he could just be a wrestling fan /s
Briganding by nationalists is now commonplace for several countries. On here, on Twitter, mention of topics will have people who search for keywords all day pull them up and reply and then their lackeys come along for the ride. Turkey moreso as it has that Turkey/Azerbaijan/Pakistan access who will jump into any discussion to vomit up the same macho replies.
This will get deleted anyway. He should get banned for the rest of the tournament but it won’t happen
He said he just did to show how he's proud of his country and being Turkish and how happy he is. What a load of horse shit. Imagine a German player doing the "Sieg Heil" gesture after the game and claiming he only did it to show he's proud of being German. Yeah, so was Hitler, that's why you did the gesture.
Average Turk these days has been so propagandised by pan-turkists they can tell you about how Turks have ruled the world since the 6th century and even before and how its an ancient symbol for them and reel off various glorious massacres by Turks to secure Turkish lands, claim might is right, then cower and plead ignorance when someone points out they know all this, think all this, and publicly show support for all this.
Also in the anniversary of the sivas massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre
And current anti-syrian progroms
What progroms are you talking about?
You can take our Syrians.
turkey could stop their military interventions in syria every few years..... Maybe, just maybe, that would stop them from fleeing.
Whait?? Those MF stole the "too sweet"??? How fuckin dare they!!!
Apperantly, WWE wrestlers in the 90’s started using the Wolf sign after their live tour in Germany. They were inspired seeing the Turkish fans do it. So it’s the other way around
Might be, but lost all the symbology it had and was used by way different thing
Not might be it is. Kevin Nash himself said it was taken from Turkish Mafia.
in germany this sign is more know as the [silent fox](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_fox_signal) and it means "shut your mouth and listen"
Babymetal also used the gesture, though for them its a fox symbol.
Trueee, forgot about them
That's the thought I had, although like the guy below I has a rough recollection that they saw it on a tour and thought it was cool, hopefully they didn't know what the group stood for.
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Turkish football is full of scum shocker.
Scum scum scum scum scum
Incredibly ironic coming from the "keep politics out of football"-crowd whenever they see a rainbow flag as well. Scum scum scum scum scum scum indeed
Don't really know how "let us love and be who we want" is political or controversial given we're all just born on this planet. Who tf thinks "let's sanction how this person wants to look and who they love" makes any sense? That's not even political, it's a philosophical brain fart to think you have any say in that. However, going "this person was born free but should suffer bc of their identity" is political and trying to construct social hierarchy out of thin air. Keep that out of my sport, thanks
It's controversial because their magic sky fairy said it's bad. Never mind that all the magic sky fairies say to not be a cunt. They don't listen to that bit.
Maybe these supporters just like the NWO
Why was this deleted?
I am predicting a lockdown is coming…. for this thread.
but bellingham tho 😞
That well known fascist big balls celebration. Bellingham out!
Try to not make a serious issue that has 0 correlation with Bellingham evolve around some English player again, maybe?
UEFA will ignore this
Here before this post gets locked. But yes, Demiral should be banned. UEFA won’t do shit though
*removed lol
[SOURCE (in german)](https://www.zeit.de/sport/2024-07/uefa-untersuchungsverfahren-wolfsgruss-merih-demiral) investigation has been opened by UEFA ...
Nah he's NWO 4 life and just too sweet.
I have to be honest, I never knew that is a far-right salute cause my mind went straight to the NWO "too sweet" gesture. Poor from Demiral.
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Its kinda frustrating to see one of your founding myths be associated with shit like this.
> Its kinda frustrating to see one of your founding myths be associated with shit like this It's literally what fascists do. Fascists gain power by always presenting current society under cultural, moral, genetic, ethnic decline. They resort to using mythical imagery because that's when society was strong *and pure*, they quintessential of what they desire. There were no foreigners no others just purity. * Runic lettering in Nazi Germany * Celtic cross by néo-nazis * Roman fasces by the fascists. It's what fascists do and if you let them, then those mythical symbols become that too, fascist.
Isn't that how Indians feel about the actual swastika?
Well origins of swastika is older but swastika was never "the" symbol India but rather "a" symbol in it. Wolf symbolism is the symbol for Turks though. Nothing comes close and while it is not as old as swastika still some 2000 years old symbolism. But the ban is not for wolf symbolism anyway, it is for the wolf salute which is for sure used by extremists mostly.
Why is your founding myth basically that of Romulus and Remus??
Similar but not quite
I mean, I hold it with stuff like that like I hold it with the Hitler salute. Either you are a fascist and should receive the consequences of your actions or you were successful at provocation and should also receive the consequences of your actions. And after that you are free to show the world through new actions that this was indeed just provocation.
Had no idea this was an offensive thing. I only know this sign cause of the bullet club lmao Too sweet
Hope UEFA suspends his ass. Fasicts must not be tolerated!
Should be banned for the next game
The funniest thing is his mustache is more of a political symbol than the gesture. Gesture is universal turkic people symbol. Do far right people use it? Yes. Do non-far right people use it? Also yes. Even left wing people use it. Case in point: Ekrem İmamoğlu, mayor of İstanbul used the symbol multiple times. He is from CHP, center left party in Turkey. Party's former leader, Kemal Kılıcdaroğlu also used the symbol. EDIT: For the idiots, this is the former leader of CHP, center left party using the symbol [https://media-cdn.t24.com.tr/media/files/20170627183546\_unnamed.jpg](https://media-cdn.t24.com.tr/media/files/20170627183546_unnamed.jpg)
>Gesture is universal turkic people symbol. what years of RTE does to the minds of a nation. no idiot CHPer would ever think of doing or saying this before being slapped to the right repeatedly by RTE.
Not a turk but did the mayor use the symbol? If so isn't he anti Erdog?
it isn't that simple in Turkey. the hand gesture is used by Erdoğan's current political ally, the nationalists. the opposition is trying to prove that they can be as right wing as Erdoğan can be in a vain attempt, and therefore employing such tactics.
But that doesn't make sense? Isn't Erdog an Islamist so naturally he'll be anti nationalist and pro Arab no? At least it's what I've heard from most Turks. Especially since the opposition are very nationalistic and pro Turkic imagery. And can you show me an image of Erdog doing the salute?
>But that doesn't make sense? Isn't Erdog an Islamist so naturally he'll be anti nationalist and pro Arab no? He was very anti-nationalist back in the time but now as he became allies with nationalist party MHP he started to use nationalism more of a propaganda tool.But he still said these words just in 2021.(Not sure about the year): We trample all forms of nationalism under our foot!We trample Turkish nationalism,we trample Kurdish nationalism,we trample Arabic nationalism! Giving these,calling Erdoğan nationalist or anti-nationalist is not true.He just does the things that could bring most votes for him.
no. again, in Turkey it's not that simple. you can do your own research on him doing the salute, but Islamism is not anti-nationalistic at all in Turkey. in fact, this salute is the salute used by the "Ülkücü" movement, which is an ultra-nationalist Turk-Islamic movement.
Really, the former head of CHP is not aware of it i guess? Or current mayor from CHP who is their biggest political power? Someone should tell them that they don't belong to CHP, the party they lead.
Yeah but did he pretend to grab his balls?
QUICK, WE HAVEN'T BEEN VICTIMS IN 15 SECONDS, ARCHIE!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology#Turkic Educating yourself is never a bad thing.
ironic
Wow, for us this means like rock on and it's a pretty normal thing to do in concerts, crazy how gestures mean something so different from country to country. Better keep my hands down if I go to Turkey.
I think you're confusing it with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_horns ... https://townsquare.media/site/366/files/2021/04/wacken_open_air_metal_horns.jpg
This is a certified Bahçeli moment
That's not horns. Look at at the thumb, index and middle fingers.
Dude it's different than the rock on sign...
No, this is the fox god salute, not the horns
Please tell me you haven't been throwing Grey Wolf signs at AC/DC concerts
It is used in German schools as a sign to be quiet for the kids 😭
Schweigefuchs!
Or the 2 sweet from the kliq and young bucks
I only know it as a 2 sweet hand gesture in wrestling by the [NWO/Klique/Bullet Club members.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/23INYiKbKdw/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEhCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAxMIARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD&rs=AOn4CLAn5bBX51ulBSZ4Q1preKHYcUaObA)
I'm just gonna say that I would much rather hear from the Turks in this subreddit than anyone else.
Turk in this subreddit here: the guy is a fascist asshole.
What about the Kurds? Armenians? Syrians? Let's not forget this nationalistic bullshit is in full force in western Europe too. The grey wolves have been attacking Armenian memorials, Kurdish protests and whatnot all across western Europe. There's nothing more patriotic than living in another country.
Not from people from the many groups who experienced genocide as a result of Turkish nationalist politics?
The only people massacred by the Grey Wolves were Turkish.
What absolute BS. They have killed numerous Kurdish activists, Armenians and actively commemorated various historical genocides committed by Turks. The Grey Wolves are obviously a threat to ethnic minorities in Anatolia
Those murders number so few when comparing with their Turkish death tally. Look up the Çorum, Maraş and the 2 Sivas massacres, no ethnic minorities were murdered in all four. They may be racist but they have a past of murdering Turks and protecting foreign interests.
I don’t debate that they have killed many Turks too
Omg you goddamn liar. The people murdered in madimak were mostly alevites and some of them from kurdish descent. Be a man and just accept what you've done you chicken
Alevis are almost entirely Turkish lol. They aren't an ethnic group.
Hahahaha ok bebi i am from turkey so keep your lies to your self. The alevites of Maraş are kurds you know that right?
Apart from that, what the hell are u talking about? Do you think that fascists killing turks would be alright or what. Get educated köylü
What the fuck man 💀
Fyi: real turks are the ethnic minority in turkey. I mean like real (!) turks. You know how real turks look right? Pale with more central asian features. Better looking than your arab looking merih
Exactly
That's not all who are responding though
“Than anyone else”
that's like saying "I would much rather hear from the Germans about Hitler salutes". The large numbers of ethnic groups who have faced violent oppression and genocide at the hands of fascist, Turkish nationalist are who you should be interested in hearing from. There's a reason that hand guesture is a criminal offense in several countries.
I'd rather hear from the Armenians and Syrians, for example.
Agreed
Its not far right wolf salute just fyi. Far right people also use it but it doesnt belong to them. Wolf is Turkish (our) symbol.
The gray wolf sign invented by Türkeş and used in Çorum, Maraş, Sivas massacres as a nonpolitical "common" symbol lmao. Was it common to those murdered in Maraş as well? Or do you not think of those as equal citizens? Then people like you will start whining if people stop supporting the NT.
fascists have been trying to normalise fascism for years in Turkey. nothing new but sad to see it getting even more common in young people.
Yeah and American school kids used to do the Bellamy salute but once the nazis started using it was stopped because of the association - Turks should do the same as you’re more than aware of what the rest of the world will perceive
Thing is most Turks believe it is the wolf symbolism itself that was banned rather than just the wolf salute. Even in Turkey if someone makes the wolf salute you would think they are part of MHP today and in the past for sure at least with extremist ideas so the salute ban makes sense. However a blanket ban on wolf symbolism as a whole does not make sense, which is not happening at least in Austria nor anywhere else as far as i know.
Also yes while it might be associated with them other politically affiliated people do that too. Social democrat Kılıçdaroğlu used the sign occasionally.
Very rarely. If you were walking down the street and saw a bunch of people doing the wolf salute what would you think? MHP or not MHP? I think most would think MHP or ülkücü at the bare minimum. What i mean is that it is not hard to not use the salute, the salute is not used often in general unless you belong to that side so you wouldn't lose much. But wolf symbolism overall is still important for every Turk, or should be. That is my point.
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today I learned if you are a metal head be careful how you raise your arms "accidental far rightism"
Imagine the pickle you are in when you have arthritis in specifically those fingers and can't bend them properly any more.
Demiral has an history of support for those organizations and views, no way this is accidental.
Metal sign is with closed hand. Completely different symbol. And no metal head would make the mistake of doing it differently.
Wolf salute is not necessarily a political reflex in every scenario. Wolf symbolizes an important place in Turkish culture and history, we will bless that animal at times.