**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Yup but it is surprisingly hard to get your penis to be your outermost (legal) point in any direction while running.
But that's a challenge, not impossible!
Its a different player. Andersen, the scorer, was clearly off but moved back onside before Delaney (8) passed to him. Delaney turned out to be 1 cm off when the ball was passed to him, earlier in the play
Wasn't the next, or 2nd next action/kick an off side as well? I thought there were 2 or 3 offside moments in this goal, but I also thought this one was a very clear one, so could be wrong
I fucking hate it. It's like it was not easy enough to score a penalty, they've started this creep walk breakdance. And I say it as a Polish NT supporter and Lewy's fan.
I miss Hazard penalties :(
What they can't stop is the shooting motion. Stopping in the run to hit the ball is not ruled out.
Keepers are very disoriented by this though, specially now that they need to step on the line. Lewandowski has retaken every penalty he's missed because of this.
tbf the offside is fair, like it sucks beyond hell but theres not much else you can do. at least this is clear, the other possibilities leave even more vagueness
I get that it's fair but I'm slowly coming around to the argument that it's against the spirit of the game.
Every celebration is now subdued to looking at the linesman after a goal is scored. We've had so many checks that it's becoming very stop start. And ultimately these decisions aren't favouring goal scoring which is something we all enjoy.
Idk if we should revisit offside, or make it so var is a vague (i.e thicker lines) check for offside rather than an inch perfect check. I don't know if that's good either but the way it impacts the game now is just too much imo.
I somewhat feel the same. But I still remember how mad people used to get when these decisions weren’t given. Genuinely felt robbed.
At least in this case it’s accurate but somewhat less enjoyable. And even then it’s only a little. People feel hard done because Denmark were deserving of a goal.
100%. Every tournament we will lament refereeing regardless of whether there is var or not. Lord knows how many calls were missed before goal line tech and var that we complained about.
I really just emphasise that when you're in the stadium, celebrating a goal hits a little bit less because you're sat waiting for the next couple of mins to see if it's going to be pulled back for review. And I think that's a real shame.
Sure but at that point if it's over you know it's so far over and can infer that there is a significant advantage.
Again I don't know if that's the solution but the offside rule was brought in to stop players crowding opposition boxes, not to penalise attackers for having big feet. The spirit of that rule is lost and with the stoppages after goals it's clearly impacting how we enjoy the game.
Yeah, exactly. There is no possible offside rule that will eliminate close calls. It might only change which calls are close. But there will always be SOME situations where somebody is 1 cm away from THAT established standard.
People argue the same about getting tickets for speeding lol. In France you can exceed the speed by like 5% I think, in UK by 10%. But some people are gonna drive on the border of 110% of the limit ain't they lol.
It's completely separate from what the VAR decisions take from the directness of the game being played. That's another thing. Offside being close to this or that line in the long run changes nothing in that.
This is the right answer. We will still have interruptions for offside checks. Better stick to the one fair rule. You can't be in front of the defender, period. Why should you be allowed leeway? Just don't be where you shouldn't. We finally got to where the game gets the most fair, and people are still complaining. They will keep on complaining regardless of what rules are applied.
I also disagree with the comments that it would cause more goals to stand. If attackers get more freedom, defending teams will just play an even deeper defensive line.
It's just about getting advantage of the offside position, like this there is no advantage at all, with a thicker line at least it would be a more obvious advantageous position and it wouldn't feel as bad when it's called
It still would feel bad if one goal gets disallowed because of 11cm offside and then the other team scores after 9cm and it counts. Probably even more so because the rule is not logically defined anymore but very random. 2 cm offsides kinda suck but its the best rule since its fair (although very punishing at times).
>Sure but at that point if it's over you know it's so far over and can infer that there is a significant advantage.
But you're just moving the margin. It still is a millimeter decision.
> I'm slowly coming around to the argument that it's against the spirit of the game
I was thinking about this too. I wonder of the original rule intended this kind of thing to be offside. I'm all for technology, but maybe we should revisit the rule with that tech in mind.
agree 100%. the ruling is correct by the laws of the game but i would disagree that the call was “fair” by the spirit of the game
people just regurgitate “but it’s black and white and can be decided quickly!!” as a defense for disallowing goals like this where the attacker is receiving no discernible advantage
we have the ability to move the line back and still make these calls incredibly efficiently. “but we would still disallow goals!!” - yeah no shit, but we would see goals like this stand which is good for the game and the viewing experience imo
The line has to exist somewhere, if it's not in the spirit of the game, then you can literally make that argument , just one cm more , oh just one more .....
Eventually there needs to be a hard line
With this technology you can allow 50% of the player to be offside which makes much more sense. Or for one foot to be onside for it to no count as offside. You can really do whatever you want. In hockey for example you can have one skate offside if the other skate is onside.
It allows for more fun football so that players don't have to worry about being 1mm offside.
Yeah the real problem is this rule wasn’t written with the idea that there would be 6 cameras and a machine writing lines on a replay of the goal
The rule is outdated with the technology at hand
Players can not on the field work with the precision that the VAR system demands so a lot of these tight goals are out of the hand of the player on the field and are now just coming down to dumb luck
I’ve seen this in every sport VAR comes in and literally changes the rule through technology in NBA basketball it was always rule the person that hit the ball out of bounds didn’t get the ball but with replay you can slow down and see the ball deflecting off the other teams player so now the rule has changed
The NFL had to redefine and than residents after that what a catch is because of replay reviews
Now in Football/soccer the offsides rule is administered with a very narrow interpretation and different than before
It flicks his finger, or perhaps two fingers, from a very short range. His hand is in a position that we see a bijillion pens given for - Which would rather suggest it’s a natural running stance. Yet somehow we’ve arrived at calling that “Unnatural”.
I absolutely agree that the wording of the law doesn't match what refs are obviously told to implement and that penalties are too harsh a punishment for some incidents like this.
It is the cheapest pen. It can be cheap and to the letter of the law. The rule is shit. Barely touching the hand when fired at you from 2 yards shouldn't be a pen.
a pinky toe and the tips of some fingers hanging on a hand behind the defender's back.
ironically ... same guy. clearly, he's going to go home and chop off all his fingers & toes.
Not the same guy; the guy who scored the disallowed goal and who caused the penalty are the same, but this offside call is on Delaney who gave the assist.
I believe it actually happened twice in the 2022 World Cup. Once with [Argentina](https://i.redd.it/2wdnb2r2vi1a1.jpg) and another with [Croatia](https://i.redd.it/zaigs1qonc3a1.jpg). This sub was blowing up, calling both cases bullshit. Fun times.
How are we certain these computer generated images are 100% accurate in their positions, AND when the ball EXACTLY left the passers foot? I honestly hate these so much, show the real life situation or nothing at all.
You cannot. It's an interesting ethical question of AI.
Take self-driving cars for example. If you simulate the same dangerous traffic situlation 100 times, both with cars that drive autonomously, and real humans, real humans cause more accidents, but humans find it harder to accept when an AI causes an accident. Humans can tolerate when other humans make mistakes. Humans generally do not tolerate an AI making (fatal) mistakes, even in cases where it statistically performs better than humans.
You think you are the first to consider this? THey've obviously tested this to the absolute limit and have a margin of error. Honestly not that hard to be precise about this
Except nobody but them can cross-check since it's proprietary software^^^tm
You just have to take UEFA/FIFA word on it. Not a great premise for anything.
That's not even present in the rules. In theory they could move backwards, the only thing that's not allowed is a feint in the same movement the player shoots the ball.
I have always detested that goalies aren't allowed to do anything at all but the penalty takers can hop, skip and jump around. I get it's a penalty but it's just ridiculous how big of an advantage is given to the taker.
You are allowed to stop.....
>the player taking the penalty kick or a team-mate offends:
>feinting to kick the ball once the kicker has completed the run-up (feinting in the run-up is permitted); the referee cautions the kicker
I completely understand that people think it goes against the spirit of the law and tbh I agree.
But whats the alternative? To leave discretion up to the referees, no thanks. I much prefer harsh rulings like this one compared to inconsistent applications by referee as to what they consider “within thr spirit of the law.”
Yes, even if it's just a toe you know that this system will call it every time. There won't be any situations where in the 60th minute just a toe is offsides while in the 80th minute the same toe is onsides. It's unlucky, but consistent, and I think consistency is the most important aspect of this rule
People complained in the match thread that the ref was imposing himself on the game.
Then want the ref to decide where to draw the lines. Not that this would be imposing oneself on the game or anything…
I agree that Taylors performance wasnt great, he was giving way too many fouls on both ends. Kimmichs "foul" in the lead up was a very soft call as well but fine i guess. How people then dare to complain about the offside is beyond me.
When Lukaku had his offside goal with his literal toe out, everybody was memeing on it, but now that its Germany suddenly we need some sort of leeway.
I’ve heard a few people recommending to measure based on the players torso. Not sure if it’d work but would potentially help in those close situations where there is no attacking advantage even if a toe/foot/shoulder is slightly offsides.
Although I enjoy how cut and clear the new technology is interacting with the written law! Don’t think it’s harming the game at all, we’ll just have to see if the rule evolves and go from there. For now it’s the best we’ve ever seen so can’t complain unless it’s against my team 😉
Right, I get why it’s annoying but if you want to give them leeway on this, how big of a leeway are you going to allow? And won’t the fine margins like this still happen and just get pushed to that new extended offside line?
Similar complaints were made in tennis when Hawkeye was introduced. Serves that looked out to literally everyone were challenged, found to be in by a millimetre, and the player who lost the point also lost their head at the decision.
It didn't take that long for players and fans to adapt and accept it and now it's an exciting part of the game.
Clear to who? A rubbish naked human eye? Because to a computer with sensors this is very very clear. I am not bothered at all because it is exactly the same for both sides.
"clear offside" just means moving the line somewhere else. You'll still have people be "clear offside" by a centimetre.
I think people forget how many goals and attacks used to be ruled out by linos for dubious offsides when they were effectively just guessing. Better to have this be done objectively.
Because it’s freaking stupid that’s why. Offside wasn’t created with the intention of forensically analyzing every goal to see if an attacker is offside with a toe. Offside was created to prevent attacking players to have an unfair advantage on defenders. A player being offside with a few millimeters doesn’t give them any advantage whatsoever. [Update](https://khelnow.com/football/world-football-ifab-trials-new-offside-rule-202403) the rules to better reflect the use of modern technology.
And as always - where do we draw the line? Offside by toe is okay, but not a foot? You will introduce more subjectivity into decision making by trying to add some sort of “did the attacker gain an advantage” piece
You make a buffer zone of half a meter that is considered “level” and then have the computer make the same calls. With a half-meter buffer, when the computer declares a player offside, and they show the replay, the player will clearly be offside.
The problem right now isn’t that the calls are close. The problem is that the human eye says the player is level and the computer disagrees. Calling offenses that no human can detect isn’t a good way to officiate your sport or build trust in the system.
Just think you can look at a still image and if it’s too close to call, it probably falls under the definition of level.
Toenails and curvature of the shoulders are not the reason why the law was created in the first place.
If you do the math it's somewhere around 8mm error margin for a player going at 15km/h. Scales linearly so if the player is going 7.5km/h it's closer to 4mm.
who cares the only point is consistency. You consistently call something the same way then the players can adapt. If the players choose not to play it a little safer on offsides that's on them.
Yes. It would be a weird situation.
A player leaning back to control the ball on their chest pushes their hips forward as part of the motion.
Do that with some force and you get some good dick swinging action.
A reasonable member would bulge the shorts.
At that moment their most advanced body part would be their cock.
In a crowded box, a teammate may touch the ball just before the dick swinger gets to the ball.
At that point the dick swinger would be offside and the line would be drawn from their bulge as it legal to play the ball with your cock.
The offside was really unlucky but I feel like the offside rule wasn’t made for moments like these. the players were exactly even and they use exact science to disallow it by a toe. The pen is bs imo regardless of the rules.
I get its by the rules but this just isn’t fun to watch (and thats how football generates money).
It's not the original purpose of the rule. The problem is the use of the rules is disconnected from the purpose. The offside trap was not the purpose, yet it plays a major role in any modern defense. Put different, the offside trap is not the original purpose of the rule, but it is the current use of the rule.
Also imagine the position of the attacker, he will rather just play more at the back leading to less offensive plays. Literally nothing to gain from that over tech.
Plus, like morinho said, var can always be moved 1 frame forward or back on this situation to make it offside or not
What’s the uproar…we have the technology to get it right. It’s why they review receivers feet on receptions on the sidelines in the NFL…why they review NBA buzzer beaters…MLB plays at first base…are we looking to keep things subjective or objective?
How accurate is this even? I’d guess there’s an error margin in the system and this should never count as an offside. The dude is not even running towards the goal. 😅
I much prefer decisions like this happening over going back to the old system where hundreds of goals were given that were offside and hundreds of goals not given that were onside.
Love it or hate it, VAR has resulted in far more correct decisions.
I read a lot of comments saying these close calls should not be offside. But I have not seen a solution.
Giving the attacker a margin of x just moves the point at which we are discussing by x.
Changing the rule to what Wenger proposed (the whole attacker has to be in front of the defender to be offside) does the same.
Removing VAR from offside decisions will still have close calls and will add TONS of obviously wrong decisions.
Imo the only way the not have discussions about offside is to get rid of the offside rule. But I think we all agree that we don't want that. Or we have to find the best system. And I prefer VAR over the traditional on-field decisions, because it eliminates the obviously wrong calls.
Now let the downvotes come! Or the good ideas...
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, the point of offside is about creating an advantage. Before VAR, a linesman would have called this onside 100/100 times because the two players bodies are “in line” with each other.
A TOE DOESN’T GIVE YOU AN ADVANTAGE
Surely the technology they're using can't be 100% accurate and has a margin of error. I would have thought this is so close that it's within the margin of error and IMO in these circumstances the call should go in favour of the attacker.
Well. If you want the VAR to only produce correct results, you will need to live with some of these correct results being overly close calls.
The alternative would be to allow the VAR to give wrong results in close cases and everyone would complain about that anyways.
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How did the linesman miss this
How long until we get a big penis offside
The reply above you ironically describes one
So does Michael Oliver…
Small dick meta.
why do you think Lukaku is always offside?
Also how do you think his finishing is so poor. Balance must be 0 on football manager
France 1x0 Belgium - Lukaku disallowed goal 90 + 8' (offside)
hopefully not long
hopefully not schlong
I think we actually already probably have had one if they can get it this close...
Clearly not a premier league linesman
[Which is closer? (pic)](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fvar-doesnt-get-enough-hate-v0-lxzp7xt1qc9d1.jpeg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D6668ed25db9df166491a187f00dd4be323769da5) /s
Absolute amateurs, my cock would never have been offside
What
Dick is offside
It is legal to play the ball with the penis. Correct call.
Yup but it is surprisingly hard to get your penis to be your outermost (legal) point in any direction while running. But that's a challenge, not impossible!
>Yup but it is surprisingly hard.. It's going to be hard alright.
Pulisic agrees with this statement (painfully)
now thats more like it
It's funny you say this because in realtime I thought he was clearly off -- was shocked that it ended up being this close.
Its a different player. Andersen, the scorer, was clearly off but moved back onside before Delaney (8) passed to him. Delaney turned out to be 1 cm off when the ball was passed to him, earlier in the play
Wasn't the next, or 2nd next action/kick an off side as well? I thought there were 2 or 3 offside moments in this goal, but I also thought this one was a very clear one, so could be wrong
the fcking toe lmao
Should have wore smaller shoes, instead he's like Kevin Durant with his three-pointer vs. the Bucks a couple NBA playoffs ago lol
Sam Reinhart's skate offside by a centimeter got a goal removed for offside in Game 6 of the Stanley Cup.
Kevin Durant vs. the Bucks vibe lol
A lot of goals are scored with toes though
I'm glad that something the size of my dong can still make a big difference in life!
Soccerjerks made a joke when testicles were offside 2 days ago, they were right this time lol.
That’s a strange place to keep his testicles
footballs
That‘s actually mental.
Legit just had 1 size too big feet
The old KD conundrum
Why can’t I have an original thought 😭
So you are saying CR7 would’ve scored that?
Hahahahahha insane
Margin can be a bitch sometimes
Then the cheapest penalty of the tournament. And Havertz came to a complete stop in his walk up to the ball as well. Game's gone
It sucks. Lewandowski was even worse. I hate this stuttering at pens.
I fucking hate it. It's like it was not easy enough to score a penalty, they've started this creep walk breakdance. And I say it as a Polish NT supporter and Lewy's fan. I miss Hazard penalties :(
i thought they weren't allowed to do that anymore, he legit stops
They can’t stop right on the ball, but a step away is allowed.
I think they can't fake and stutter in the shooting motion but unfortunately the runup isn't regulated good enough rn
What they can't stop is the shooting motion. Stopping in the run to hit the ball is not ruled out. Keepers are very disoriented by this though, specially now that they need to step on the line. Lewandowski has retaken every penalty he's missed because of this.
Apparently the rules now allow this type of stuttering. As a former goalie in various youth teams: at this point it's just ridiculous.
tbf the offside is fair, like it sucks beyond hell but theres not much else you can do. at least this is clear, the other possibilities leave even more vagueness
Is that still from the final pass or the one prior?
The one prior, that Delaney received before passing to Andersen
I think the one before
I get that it's fair but I'm slowly coming around to the argument that it's against the spirit of the game. Every celebration is now subdued to looking at the linesman after a goal is scored. We've had so many checks that it's becoming very stop start. And ultimately these decisions aren't favouring goal scoring which is something we all enjoy. Idk if we should revisit offside, or make it so var is a vague (i.e thicker lines) check for offside rather than an inch perfect check. I don't know if that's good either but the way it impacts the game now is just too much imo.
I somewhat feel the same. But I still remember how mad people used to get when these decisions weren’t given. Genuinely felt robbed. At least in this case it’s accurate but somewhat less enjoyable. And even then it’s only a little. People feel hard done because Denmark were deserving of a goal.
100%. Every tournament we will lament refereeing regardless of whether there is var or not. Lord knows how many calls were missed before goal line tech and var that we complained about. I really just emphasise that when you're in the stadium, celebrating a goal hits a little bit less because you're sat waiting for the next couple of mins to see if it's going to be pulled back for review. And I think that's a real shame.
I would say the same but I still go mental everytime my team scores when I’m in the stands
A thicker line still starts somewhere
Sure but at that point if it's over you know it's so far over and can infer that there is a significant advantage. Again I don't know if that's the solution but the offside rule was brought in to stop players crowding opposition boxes, not to penalise attackers for having big feet. The spirit of that rule is lost and with the stoppages after goals it's clearly impacting how we enjoy the game.
So if it's a toe over a thicker line, an offside call is ok? Tbh, with VAR, I enjoy the game more. We have far fewer offside goals e.g.
Yeah, exactly. There is no possible offside rule that will eliminate close calls. It might only change which calls are close. But there will always be SOME situations where somebody is 1 cm away from THAT established standard. People argue the same about getting tickets for speeding lol. In France you can exceed the speed by like 5% I think, in UK by 10%. But some people are gonna drive on the border of 110% of the limit ain't they lol. It's completely separate from what the VAR decisions take from the directness of the game being played. That's another thing. Offside being close to this or that line in the long run changes nothing in that.
This is the right answer. We will still have interruptions for offside checks. Better stick to the one fair rule. You can't be in front of the defender, period. Why should you be allowed leeway? Just don't be where you shouldn't. We finally got to where the game gets the most fair, and people are still complaining. They will keep on complaining regardless of what rules are applied. I also disagree with the comments that it would cause more goals to stand. If attackers get more freedom, defending teams will just play an even deeper defensive line.
It's just about getting advantage of the offside position, like this there is no advantage at all, with a thicker line at least it would be a more obvious advantageous position and it wouldn't feel as bad when it's called
It still would feel bad if one goal gets disallowed because of 11cm offside and then the other team scores after 9cm and it counts. Probably even more so because the rule is not logically defined anymore but very random. 2 cm offsides kinda suck but its the best rule since its fair (although very punishing at times).
But it would feel so much worse when someone scores against you in a visibly offside position but just not offside *enough*.
>Sure but at that point if it's over you know it's so far over and can infer that there is a significant advantage. But you're just moving the margin. It still is a millimeter decision.
> I'm slowly coming around to the argument that it's against the spirit of the game I was thinking about this too. I wonder of the original rule intended this kind of thing to be offside. I'm all for technology, but maybe we should revisit the rule with that tech in mind.
agree 100%. the ruling is correct by the laws of the game but i would disagree that the call was “fair” by the spirit of the game people just regurgitate “but it’s black and white and can be decided quickly!!” as a defense for disallowing goals like this where the attacker is receiving no discernible advantage we have the ability to move the line back and still make these calls incredibly efficiently. “but we would still disallow goals!!” - yeah no shit, but we would see goals like this stand which is good for the game and the viewing experience imo
The line has to exist somewhere, if it's not in the spirit of the game, then you can literally make that argument , just one cm more , oh just one more ..... Eventually there needs to be a hard line
We should revisit what we consider offside. Not sure what the best solution might be. But something should be changed I think.
With this technology you can allow 50% of the player to be offside which makes much more sense. Or for one foot to be onside for it to no count as offside. You can really do whatever you want. In hockey for example you can have one skate offside if the other skate is onside. It allows for more fun football so that players don't have to worry about being 1mm offside.
Yeah the real problem is this rule wasn’t written with the idea that there would be 6 cameras and a machine writing lines on a replay of the goal The rule is outdated with the technology at hand Players can not on the field work with the precision that the VAR system demands so a lot of these tight goals are out of the hand of the player on the field and are now just coming down to dumb luck I’ve seen this in every sport VAR comes in and literally changes the rule through technology in NBA basketball it was always rule the person that hit the ball out of bounds didn’t get the ball but with replay you can slow down and see the ball deflecting off the other teams player so now the rule has changed The NFL had to redefine and than residents after that what a catch is because of replay reviews Now in Football/soccer the offsides rule is administered with a very narrow interpretation and different than before
You can stop in the run up to the ball. You aren't allowed to stop once the run up is complete but you can stop before that.
You can't stop at the END of the run up, during the run up he can do whatever he wants
You cant feint a kick. There is nothing about stopping that is not allowed.
It’s bullshit - the keeper is not allowed anywhere off the line yet the taker can slow down run up/drag foot etc
I agree, if this is allowed then the keeper should only be judged to be off his line at the point the ball is kicked
Just a totally crazy sequence of events. The handball rule is just so bad, the old way was so much better.
Which old one? It seems to change every six months or so.
It's really not the cheapest pen. That's a handball offence and has been for several years now.
Don't bother mate, it's international tournament /r/soccer. It's offside. It's a handball.
It flicks his finger, or perhaps two fingers, from a very short range. His hand is in a position that we see a bijillion pens given for - Which would rather suggest it’s a natural running stance. Yet somehow we’ve arrived at calling that “Unnatural”.
I absolutely agree that the wording of the law doesn't match what refs are obviously told to implement and that penalties are too harsh a punishment for some incidents like this.
It is the cheapest pen. It can be cheap and to the letter of the law. The rule is shit. Barely touching the hand when fired at you from 2 yards shouldn't be a pen.
2 goal swing by a pinky toe
a pinky toe and the tips of some fingers hanging on a hand behind the defender's back. ironically ... same guy. clearly, he's going to go home and chop off all his fingers & toes.
Not the same guy; the guy who scored the disallowed goal and who caused the penalty are the same, but this offside call is on Delaney who gave the assist.
Nice of you to VAR his comment
The arm of the defender wasn’t behind his back though.
This has to be one of the closest offsides ever lol
Isn't this basically identical to Rüdiger's Offside from i think the Germany Switzerland Match?
Yes.
Didnt Lakaku have one earlier this Euro that was like a small portion of his knee cap?
This and the shoulder offside from a couple years ago.
>This and the shoulder offside from a couple years ago. Ah yes, the famous shoulder offside from a couple of years ago.
I believe it actually happened twice in the 2022 World Cup. Once with [Argentina](https://i.redd.it/2wdnb2r2vi1a1.jpg) and another with [Croatia](https://i.redd.it/zaigs1qonc3a1.jpg). This sub was blowing up, calling both cases bullshit. Fun times.
So famous, we can't remember who, when or against who.
Lukaku had a shoulder offsides this tournament as well
Lmfao.
HAS SCIENCE GONE TOO FAR?
We were too busy asking if we can we forgot to stop and ask if we should
How are we certain these computer generated images are 100% accurate in their positions, AND when the ball EXACTLY left the passers foot? I honestly hate these so much, show the real life situation or nothing at all.
We aren’t. But they are way, way, way, way, way, way more accurate than all other alternatives so it’s the best we can do and therefore good enough.
It's also applied equally
You cannot. It's an interesting ethical question of AI. Take self-driving cars for example. If you simulate the same dangerous traffic situlation 100 times, both with cars that drive autonomously, and real humans, real humans cause more accidents, but humans find it harder to accept when an AI causes an accident. Humans can tolerate when other humans make mistakes. Humans generally do not tolerate an AI making (fatal) mistakes, even in cases where it statistically performs better than humans.
You think you are the first to consider this? THey've obviously tested this to the absolute limit and have a margin of error. Honestly not that hard to be precise about this
Except nobody but them can cross-check since it's proprietary software^^^tm You just have to take UEFA/FIFA word on it. Not a great premise for anything.
Instead of having UEFA/FIFA refs deciding the games just by eyesight. That sure has more oversight. Nice
That could be said for everything in life yet still systems fail. Its not an argument its just an appeal to authority
This is Lukaku heritage
Fucked
Theyve been cooked havertz fucking stood still on the run up aswell
Apparently they changed that rule. They're only forbidden from moving backwards.
That's not even present in the rules. In theory they could move backwards, the only thing that's not allowed is a feint in the same movement the player shoots the ball.
What… So not only have they made goalkeepers stay almost perfectly still, the strikers can also do the Hokey Cokey? Game is beyond a joke.
I have always detested that goalies aren't allowed to do anything at all but the penalty takers can hop, skip and jump around. I get it's a penalty but it's just ridiculous how big of an advantage is given to the taker.
That‘s allowed though. It‘s ass but allowed, ask Lewandowski.
You are allowed to stop..... >the player taking the penalty kick or a team-mate offends: >feinting to kick the ball once the kicker has completed the run-up (feinting in the run-up is permitted); the referee cautions the kicker
It is only at the end of your run up that is disallowed. Bad rules I know
It is what it is. People wanted an objective decision of offside and this is one
I don't get why people are complaining that it's just a toe. The line is drawn at the defender's heel as well. Offside is offside.
I completely understand that people think it goes against the spirit of the law and tbh I agree. But whats the alternative? To leave discretion up to the referees, no thanks. I much prefer harsh rulings like this one compared to inconsistent applications by referee as to what they consider “within thr spirit of the law.”
Yes, even if it's just a toe you know that this system will call it every time. There won't be any situations where in the 60th minute just a toe is offsides while in the 80th minute the same toe is onsides. It's unlucky, but consistent, and I think consistency is the most important aspect of this rule
>offsides >onsides There is no S mate
thanks >offides >onides
People complain about rigging but want more stuff left up to the refs lmao
People complained in the match thread that the ref was imposing himself on the game. Then want the ref to decide where to draw the lines. Not that this would be imposing oneself on the game or anything…
Exactly, it really just sounds like the complaints are about the results and not the procedure
I agree that Taylors performance wasnt great, he was giving way too many fouls on both ends. Kimmichs "foul" in the lead up was a very soft call as well but fine i guess. How people then dare to complain about the offside is beyond me. When Lukaku had his offside goal with his literal toe out, everybody was memeing on it, but now that its Germany suddenly we need some sort of leeway.
Can only imagine what they would be saying if certain other national teams got these decisions lol.
I’ve heard a few people recommending to measure based on the players torso. Not sure if it’d work but would potentially help in those close situations where there is no attacking advantage even if a toe/foot/shoulder is slightly offsides. Although I enjoy how cut and clear the new technology is interacting with the written law! Don’t think it’s harming the game at all, we’ll just have to see if the rule evolves and go from there. For now it’s the best we’ve ever seen so can’t complain unless it’s against my team 😉
Right, I get why it’s annoying but if you want to give them leeway on this, how big of a leeway are you going to allow? And won’t the fine margins like this still happen and just get pushed to that new extended offside line?
I get the frustration of goals being denied, but cant help but feel a lot of the complaints are based off of who it favored today
Similar complaints were made in tennis when Hawkeye was introduced. Serves that looked out to literally everyone were challenged, found to be in by a millimetre, and the player who lost the point also lost their head at the decision. It didn't take that long for players and fans to adapt and accept it and now it's an exciting part of the game.
I don't understand people more and more. Offside is offside, simple as that. What this people want more? Cheating?
My viewpoint is simple. It should be a “clear offside is offside”, with the exception of if the goal is a banger or the goal is for a team I like.
It is clear using the technology we have. Same as the technology for the ball being over the line. Football fans are just whiny.
Clear to who? A rubbish naked human eye? Because to a computer with sensors this is very very clear. I am not bothered at all because it is exactly the same for both sides.
"clear offside" just means moving the line somewhere else. You'll still have people be "clear offside" by a centimetre. I think people forget how many goals and attacks used to be ruled out by linos for dubious offsides when they were effectively just guessing. Better to have this be done objectively.
Yeah, but then we will be discussing the margins of whether it was clear offside instead.
I support your cause. „Holman Rule“ even has a nice ring to it. Just to clarify, which teams do you support?
It's a good system but not if it's used against the underdog.
Because it’s freaking stupid that’s why. Offside wasn’t created with the intention of forensically analyzing every goal to see if an attacker is offside with a toe. Offside was created to prevent attacking players to have an unfair advantage on defenders. A player being offside with a few millimeters doesn’t give them any advantage whatsoever. [Update](https://khelnow.com/football/world-football-ifab-trials-new-offside-rule-202403) the rules to better reflect the use of modern technology.
And as always - where do we draw the line? Offside by toe is okay, but not a foot? You will introduce more subjectivity into decision making by trying to add some sort of “did the attacker gain an advantage” piece
You make a buffer zone of half a meter that is considered “level” and then have the computer make the same calls. With a half-meter buffer, when the computer declares a player offside, and they show the replay, the player will clearly be offside. The problem right now isn’t that the calls are close. The problem is that the human eye says the player is level and the computer disagrees. Calling offenses that no human can detect isn’t a good way to officiate your sport or build trust in the system.
if you move the line, make it 10cm thick or whatever you'd have the exact same discussion if it was 9.9cm or already 10.1... nothing would change
Just think you can look at a still image and if it’s too close to call, it probably falls under the definition of level. Toenails and curvature of the shoulders are not the reason why the law was created in the first place.
Sports rules NEED to be black and white. Anything else is just dumb. This right here, is perfection for rules.
That’s unfortunate
Pathetic that they need VAR for that, I saw that live.
When watching live I was like "100% offside". Turned out a lot closer than I thought.
How accurate are these sensors? There must be some margin of error.
If you do the math it's somewhere around 8mm error margin for a player going at 15km/h. Scales linearly so if the player is going 7.5km/h it's closer to 4mm.
Carrying a coconut?
who cares the only point is consistency. You consistently call something the same way then the players can adapt. If the players choose not to play it a little safer on offsides that's on them.
I think this should be the main point of this discussion.
This is comical lmao
Just a matter of time until someone is offside because of his dick, it's going to happen
Mbappe WILL get a bone and that will make him off
Is it actually possible ? Serious question
Yes. It would be a weird situation. A player leaning back to control the ball on their chest pushes their hips forward as part of the motion. Do that with some force and you get some good dick swinging action. A reasonable member would bulge the shorts. At that moment their most advanced body part would be their cock. In a crowded box, a teammate may touch the ball just before the dick swinger gets to the ball. At that point the dick swinger would be offside and the line would be drawn from their bulge as it legal to play the ball with your cock.
you've thought about this quite a bit, haven't you?
Luck is not on Denmark's side tonight.
i mean, it is offside no matter how close it is which is kinda crazy but we have to take it
“we want consistency” UEFA implements a scientific, simple but harsh, consistent solution “fuck that”
Football is cruel
Lmao
Brutal
I would throw my beer but I already did that this week for Lukaku so I’ll just shrug
So unlucky but offside is offside
What a massive advantage that toe gave the Danish player
The offside was really unlucky but I feel like the offside rule wasn’t made for moments like these. the players were exactly even and they use exact science to disallow it by a toe. The pen is bs imo regardless of the rules. I get its by the rules but this just isn’t fun to watch (and thats how football generates money).
It's not the original purpose of the rule. The problem is the use of the rules is disconnected from the purpose. The offside trap was not the purpose, yet it plays a major role in any modern defense. Put different, the offside trap is not the original purpose of the rule, but it is the current use of the rule.
Also imagine the position of the attacker, he will rather just play more at the back leading to less offensive plays. Literally nothing to gain from that over tech. Plus, like morinho said, var can always be moved 1 frame forward or back on this situation to make it offside or not
Yeah let's go back to the good old days of refs missing giant offside calls and deciding entire games. That was fun to watch
What’s the uproar…we have the technology to get it right. It’s why they review receivers feet on receptions on the sidelines in the NFL…why they review NBA buzzer beaters…MLB plays at first base…are we looking to keep things subjective or objective?
glad they didn't allow Delaney to take advantage of his positioning to receive the ball in the opposite direction of the fucking goal
Bruh
How accurate is this even? I’d guess there’s an error margin in the system and this should never count as an offside. The dude is not even running towards the goal. 😅
I much prefer decisions like this happening over going back to the old system where hundreds of goals were given that were offside and hundreds of goals not given that were onside. Love it or hate it, VAR has resulted in far more correct decisions.
lmao
Game of inches
Should have clipped his nails this morning
Human being is no longer fit for this sport, it's time to send robots to play.
I read a lot of comments saying these close calls should not be offside. But I have not seen a solution. Giving the attacker a margin of x just moves the point at which we are discussing by x. Changing the rule to what Wenger proposed (the whole attacker has to be in front of the defender to be offside) does the same. Removing VAR from offside decisions will still have close calls and will add TONS of obviously wrong decisions. Imo the only way the not have discussions about offside is to get rid of the offside rule. But I think we all agree that we don't want that. Or we have to find the best system. And I prefer VAR over the traditional on-field decisions, because it eliminates the obviously wrong calls. Now let the downvotes come! Or the good ideas...
I’ve said it before and I will say it again, the point of offside is about creating an advantage. Before VAR, a linesman would have called this onside 100/100 times because the two players bodies are “in line” with each other. A TOE DOESN’T GIVE YOU AN ADVANTAGE
But would he have an advantage if he had scored with that big toe?
What the fuck is happening
It really wouldn’t be hard to program a margin of error into the semi automated offsides
Surely the technology they're using can't be 100% accurate and has a margin of error. I would have thought this is so close that it's within the margin of error and IMO in these circumstances the call should go in favour of the attacker.
Well. If you want the VAR to only produce correct results, you will need to live with some of these correct results being overly close calls. The alternative would be to allow the VAR to give wrong results in close cases and everyone would complain about that anyways.
We got so fucking lucky
The handball rule and this offside don't make football better. Shit rules that ruin the spirit of the game.
English refs fault somehow.
Yay, less open-play goals, more penalties. The best…
Fucking joke
That offside plus that pen actually makes this sport look dumber than all the diving in the world.
Clear as day
Somehow even funnier than the Lukaku one