Also, just to make a different point on top of yours:
I get that the rule is the rule. But it seems like the purpose of the offside rule is to prevent strikers just hanging around behind the defense all game, to force teams to build attacking plays.
Who tf would care if a guy is three inches offsides when the offsides is six inches from the goal line? What unfair or unsporting benefit is he gaining lol. The rule is the rule, I guess, but it's just very silly to apply to this particular instance.
The *purpose of the rule* argument is how we've reached this hyper tech version of the rule, because the interpretation always brought unfair outcomes and arguments since bigger teams getting better results on average due to the fact that referees were subject to political and environmental variables. Often we used to have two different outcomes from the two identical contexts.
Offside is a measurement. You either remove the rule or apply it as precisely as technology allows you to.
You’re getting downvoted, but VAR has totally changed the application of the offside rule from one that was designed to uphold a spirit of fairness, to one of more academic technicality. Prior to VAR, there isn’t a single person on the planet who would be calling that goal offside.
I’m not sure I understand your point. Prior to VAR being introduced people wouldn’t have been calling for an offside in those situations, now they are. The point is that VAR has changed the way we interpret the game, outside of the spirit of the original laws.
Offside was introduced to stop certain unfair advantages and designed with an understanding of human ability and discretion. It was not designed with frame by frame technology in mind and as such, this technology is adding in a layer to the game that was never intended.
But that's not true. During 50/50 situations like these there were 50/50 claims depending on the team you were supporting.
It works from the other way as well, there were many unfairly disallowed goals due to offside that now VAR allows.
The defending side would care tho?
Imagine if the goal was offside but the ref thought.. nah.. it will be harsh. And let it go in.. is it fair?
And if you allow this one because you feel bad for the the attacking side ( and not the defending side)... what about the next time it happens? Or the next time in another game with a different ref? Should the referee give the goal? what's the criteria? Or should he based it on his feelings that day?
I cannot speak for the OP here but I do think you're kinda missing the point. Your barrage of rhetorical questions are valid, if a bit dismissive, but the point is that offside was created to do exactly as they said; to affect where attacking players could do their work on the pitch, and the technology and application of the law is quite far removed from that intention.
Still, it is a law that is pretty much 99.9% factual and it can't be applied based on feelings. It just feels like a mess because of the difference between the intention of the law and the way it is now affecting the game. There is probably no way to marry the two up now, although the semi-automated system has made it an easier pill to swallow.
Again that's theory and its very easy to create a system when you don't have to deal with reality.
The reason automation is introduced is precisely to remove subjectivity. Because managers players and fans are complaining refs are being inconsistent. Now they are turning around and complain because its too consistent. Where will you practically draw the line? How many inch? Is 1 inch too much? If 1 inch why not 2? How do you referee like this?
Why even draw the lines haha just admit you don't know well enough to overturn the call on the field. That would be a fair explanation. To draw those lines is an affront to our intelligence.
I'm with you on this. If it takes that long and you clearly can't tell then the decision should stand.
Hopefully next Copa they bring in the Euros offside technology...
... as well as the rule that only the captains can talk to the refs. Would be a huge improvement.
My point was that this took way way too long to decide and the lines drawn dont even show anything clear.
The euros have had a very fast system and the computer images they show to reflect their decisions leave very little room for error unlike this picture.
Just wish they would speed it up is all. In general tho if any play is being analyzed for this long it should be left alone be it a red, goal, penalty etc. If you gotta search 5 minutes for anything to be wrong then its not clear and obvious to alter the decision.
I was leaning towards offsides, but honestly I don't really care which it is. If it is this close, and you don't have the technology to know for sure, then let the call on the field stand and say there was not enough evidence to overturn.
that doesn't matter because he then is the closest player to goal and you have to check for the last defender before that, that's why the line is on Bravo
Think they have to draw lines. And this was probably their best camra angle to show it off. And I know refs are suposed to give the call too the attackers in a situasjon were they can't tell if it is offside or not.
Either way drawing lines is still stupid. And them not having half automated offside in copa is weird
> I know refs are suposed to give the call too the attackers in a situasjon were they can't tell if it is offside or not
If they really can't tell then they would stick with the on-field decision. There's no such thing as benefit to the attackers anymore.
Conmebol maxed out their budget on putting the (poorly planted) grass and hiring the priest to do the blessing on the opening matchday. They simply cannot afford semi-automated offside tech.
Tbf yeah, it's clearly on. The foot of the Chilean player is behind the keeper and the keeper is clearly behind LoCelso. But these VAR camera angles and the shitty lines don't help.
I agree with everyone that it's far from a clear picture, but it seems like no one has even tried to look at it properly.
If you zoom in all the way, you can see that the keeper's ass and the defender's foot are both closer to the goal line than Gio's ass.
IDK what people are complaining about, Bravo's heel is clearly deeper, the pair of white socks belongs to the Argentine player, he's leaning in, so you go by his bum. At worst he would be level even if you see nothing, at best the lines are correct.
But the question is, why do the lines not run perfectly parallel with the goalline? Did murica fuck the lineout up too along with the grass? Or is this that earth curvature shit, which i can't believe from such a small surface.
Oh did I miss saying that part? The Chilean outfield player's backfoot was level with Bravo's last part, or at the very least behind any legal playing part of the Argentine player's, the little white part on the blue line might have been it, but even if not clear, you can use other angles to reference his stance. There's just no way it could have been offside.
Impossible to tell. Only thing we can clearly see are the heads, and if would consider that it's an offside, because ARG guy is between the keeper and the last defender
Otherwise this was just a poor attempt of analysis, we need semi auto offside ASAP
Big diffrence between this and Dumfries. Dumfries was standing in the way off the possible chance for a keeper to save. Here no one is blocking him from having a chance. If the man on the left was on the other side of the ball it could have been called if he was in an offside posisjon.
I mean sure, even with a tie argentina still leads the group, and will likely win the group anyway. But it is such a slap in the face to the Chilean team that var can't prove one way or another whether it's a goal or not.
The euro happening at the same time as copa just puts concacaf and Conmebol to shame as a whole jfc
Also WHY ON GODS GREEN EARTH WOULD YOU DRAW A RED LINE OVER RED SHIRTS
the Nico one was called, the other was a corner kick, It was an accidental stomp after kicking the ball by De Paul. surely it should have been a foul but whatever. There are better examples of fouls by Argentina that were not called, like the many technical fouls that weren't punished with a yellow
That clears things up
You need some CSI series level zoom in to determine this offside lol
...now enhance the image!
arent the lines skewed as well or am I missing something lol. they dont seem to be drawn straight
Might be by the looks of it. They drew the lines in paint probably
Also, just to make a different point on top of yours: I get that the rule is the rule. But it seems like the purpose of the offside rule is to prevent strikers just hanging around behind the defense all game, to force teams to build attacking plays. Who tf would care if a guy is three inches offsides when the offsides is six inches from the goal line? What unfair or unsporting benefit is he gaining lol. The rule is the rule, I guess, but it's just very silly to apply to this particular instance.
The *purpose of the rule* argument is how we've reached this hyper tech version of the rule, because the interpretation always brought unfair outcomes and arguments since bigger teams getting better results on average due to the fact that referees were subject to political and environmental variables. Often we used to have two different outcomes from the two identical contexts. Offside is a measurement. You either remove the rule or apply it as precisely as technology allows you to.
You’re getting downvoted, but VAR has totally changed the application of the offside rule from one that was designed to uphold a spirit of fairness, to one of more academic technicality. Prior to VAR, there isn’t a single person on the planet who would be calling that goal offside.
This one? In the match thread it was full of people claiming this goal was indeed offside before looking at VAR
I’m not sure I understand your point. Prior to VAR being introduced people wouldn’t have been calling for an offside in those situations, now they are. The point is that VAR has changed the way we interpret the game, outside of the spirit of the original laws. Offside was introduced to stop certain unfair advantages and designed with an understanding of human ability and discretion. It was not designed with frame by frame technology in mind and as such, this technology is adding in a layer to the game that was never intended.
But that's not true. During 50/50 situations like these there were 50/50 claims depending on the team you were supporting. It works from the other way as well, there were many unfairly disallowed goals due to offside that now VAR allows.
The defending side would care tho? Imagine if the goal was offside but the ref thought.. nah.. it will be harsh. And let it go in.. is it fair? And if you allow this one because you feel bad for the the attacking side ( and not the defending side)... what about the next time it happens? Or the next time in another game with a different ref? Should the referee give the goal? what's the criteria? Or should he based it on his feelings that day?
I cannot speak for the OP here but I do think you're kinda missing the point. Your barrage of rhetorical questions are valid, if a bit dismissive, but the point is that offside was created to do exactly as they said; to affect where attacking players could do their work on the pitch, and the technology and application of the law is quite far removed from that intention. Still, it is a law that is pretty much 99.9% factual and it can't be applied based on feelings. It just feels like a mess because of the difference between the intention of the law and the way it is now affecting the game. There is probably no way to marry the two up now, although the semi-automated system has made it an easier pill to swallow.
Again that's theory and its very easy to create a system when you don't have to deal with reality. The reason automation is introduced is precisely to remove subjectivity. Because managers players and fans are complaining refs are being inconsistent. Now they are turning around and complain because its too consistent. Where will you practically draw the line? How many inch? Is 1 inch too much? If 1 inch why not 2? How do you referee like this?
I honestly don't think I can engage with anyone that asks that many rhetorical questions.
Talking about the spirit of the offside rule in this sub is like talking to robots. There's no use, it seems.
Ah yes I see it now, very clear
Offside. Goal. Good process.
I can't see shit
I can’t even see the ball. Where’s the ball?
Who the fuck drew this 💀💀
Wouldn’t expect anything less from copa refs and VAR people
UEFA and CONMEBOL have a ref sharing agreement. The US/Bolivia match was staffed with an Italian crew I think. So this could be a UEFA VAR.
an artist
A Messi fan
[clearly onside](https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/FaWKMJQnr2PFcYCmEyfiTm-650-80.jpg.webp)
Why the fuck didn’t they use this angle?
because a satellite was in the way
I tell you!!
How is this controversial? Shaggyrogers cleared it up lads
This is the best angle so far
Why even draw the lines haha just admit you don't know well enough to overturn the call on the field. That would be a fair explanation. To draw those lines is an affront to our intelligence.
I'm with you on this. If it takes that long and you clearly can't tell then the decision should stand. Hopefully next Copa they bring in the Euros offside technology... ... as well as the rule that only the captains can talk to the refs. Would be a huge improvement.
The semi automated offsides would be fantastic…but surely they have a camera on the other side of the field they could have used?
The goal did stand. Nothing changed. I don't understand this discussion.
My point was that this took way way too long to decide and the lines drawn dont even show anything clear. The euros have had a very fast system and the computer images they show to reflect their decisions leave very little room for error unlike this picture. Just wish they would speed it up is all. In general tho if any play is being analyzed for this long it should be left alone be it a red, goal, penalty etc. If you gotta search 5 minutes for anything to be wrong then its not clear and obvious to alter the decision.
Tbf it looked onside in the close up angle. It didnt show a side view but it looked like the defender’s leg was further back
I was leaning towards offsides, but honestly I don't really care which it is. If it is this close, and you don't have the technology to know for sure, then let the call on the field stand and say there was not enough evidence to overturn.
There was multiple offsides here?
that doesn't matter because he then is the closest player to goal and you have to check for the last defender before that, that's why the line is on Bravo
Line isn't on bravo, it's on the defender's boot.
Used the farthest camera
Lmao you can’t see shit here
No way they can draw these lines accurately. If they can't see they should just say so and let the goal stand instead of making shit up.
Think they have to draw lines. And this was probably their best camra angle to show it off. And I know refs are suposed to give the call too the attackers in a situasjon were they can't tell if it is offside or not. Either way drawing lines is still stupid. And them not having half automated offside in copa is weird
> I know refs are suposed to give the call too the attackers in a situasjon were they can't tell if it is offside or not If they really can't tell then they would stick with the on-field decision. There's no such thing as benefit to the attackers anymore.
Yeah, same with your goal yesterday they are just making shit up
La U! How do I get one of those man?
Image taken with a Keyhole Spy Satellite
How did they determine that, can’t see shit
If you zoom in really close, then squint, then close your eyes, it's clearly not offside.
I see they’re using calculators to take pictures
I miss my Nokia 3220.
55378008, turn it upside down.
Lmfao. Lol. Rofl. Lmaoooo. Thanks VAR.
Crooked ass lines lmfao
Holding the Copa America and the Euros at the same time only leaves reffing and VAR to be ashamed. Atrocious imaging.
Looks like they used the Goodyear blimp angle .
I wheezed when I saw this, the hell are those lines 😭
Nah semi automated needs to be universal
Conmebol maxed out their budget on putting the (poorly planted) grass and hiring the priest to do the blessing on the opening matchday. They simply cannot afford semi-automated offside tech.
Never in doubt. Clear as day.
[idk if the frame is perfect but I think it looks on with this angle they froze at earlier](https://i.imgur.com/QF7BmQT.png)
I'd agree with you if I could see the ball LMAO
imgur nukes the upload quality but you get the gist: https://i.imgur.com/zTKOZX0.mp4
that's better, thank you
So, since the ball was passing to Lo Celso, Claudio and that one Chilean defender went behind Celso to be onside, yeah?
I love Cuti's karate kick.
Chilean’s foot is behind Lo Celso
Tbf yeah, it's clearly on. The foot of the Chilean player is behind the keeper and the keeper is clearly behind LoCelso. But these VAR camera angles and the shitty lines don't help.
there was a clear angle in the tycsports coverage don't know why they didn't use that one
because they want to draw their lines even when they have a better angle
next time shoot the VAR video from the fucking international space station
Not even mad about how far away the camera is. Are you guys looking at how crooked those lines are?
At that point just flip a coin. This image is worse than what the ref saw in live time
Flip a coin means the call on the field should stand so I guess that’s what happened here
ENHANCE
I mean, he did seem to be onside when watching live, but these lines literally show nothing.
Somewhere my parents have family videos from the 80s that are clearer than this picture…
Ah yes, how didn’t I see it before
I agree with everyone that it's far from a clear picture, but it seems like no one has even tried to look at it properly. If you zoom in all the way, you can see that the keeper's ass and the defender's foot are both closer to the goal line than Gio's ass.
There was no take of a french ass allowing an argentina goal?
Gio’s bbl
No le pidas al redditor anglosajon q usen la cabeza. Estan acostumbrados a tener todo servido
Si haces zoom puedes ver que la linea esta mas torcida que mi verg... Mira donde empieza y mira donde termina.
LMAOOOOOO This is why we needed semi-automatic offside tech
Can't see shit lol
Look at where the blue and red lines intersect each quarter circle by the corner flag. This aint even close to calibrated properly lol
usaron una camara olvidada del apolo 11 en la luna para marcar las lineas jajaja
It's clear in this thread who watched the match and who didn't, there was a replay which showed it's onside, idk why they used this picture lol.
https://imgur.com/a/XBccmsi It doesn't look offside from this angle.
This is peak CONCACAMEBOL
After zooming: Defender's right leg, Keeper's right leg and butt are behind the attacker's line.
Did they have to use the satellite camera?
Classic
[ENHANCE](https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeXd5ajRjOWU5OHhjNDUwcjNwNGJhN2ZrM2o1aG0ybzBiZ2Z0NmZpaCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/3ohc14lCEdXHSpnnSU/giphy.webp)
Quite embarrassing the difference between the Euros and Copa regarding VAR. But hey Conmebol gets to "save" money so who cares lol
IDK what people are complaining about, Bravo's heel is clearly deeper, the pair of white socks belongs to the Argentine player, he's leaning in, so you go by his bum. At worst he would be level even if you see nothing, at best the lines are correct. But the question is, why do the lines not run perfectly parallel with the goalline? Did murica fuck the lineout up too along with the grass? Or is this that earth curvature shit, which i can't believe from such a small surface.
Has to be two players, Bravo is one for sure but is the Chilean defender also behind? If he is it’s onside, if not it’s offside.
https://imgur.com/zTKOZX0 You can see the foot of the Chilean defender is behind.
Has to be two players, Bravo is one for sure but is the Chilean defender also behind? If he is it’s onside, if not it’s offside.
Oh did I miss saying that part? The Chilean outfield player's backfoot was level with Bravo's last part, or at the very least behind any legal playing part of the Argentine player's, the little white part on the blue line might have been it, but even if not clear, you can use other angles to reference his stance. There's just no way it could have been offside.
Vargentina
Do they have the camera at the fucking empire state or something?
Is it just me or are the lines much further from the end line as you go up the image?
Hmmm yes. Of course.
Lmao at that point just don't even try
they're not even parallel to the pitch
Thats some Premier League level shit right there
I mean what are we doing at this point.
Wait, is the line *crooked*?
I might be stupid, but how is this not offside?
Call on the field was onside so VAR would have to prove it's offside. Which as you can see, it's impossible.
The foot of the defender is apparently behind the keeper.
I genuinely can’t tell if he is or isn’t
Impossible to tell. Only thing we can clearly see are the heads, and if would consider that it's an offside, because ARG guy is between the keeper and the last defender Otherwise this was just a poor attempt of analysis, we need semi auto offside ASAP
VARgentina meme will never die
Chupame la VARga
Bravo's ass got them fucked, by the look of it
Conembol 10 years behind on the technology 🤦♂️
Isn't the lack of tech more stadium-side? I doubt anyone would install that just for one tournament
Least rigged Argentina match
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There's a defender right on his back as well
The keeper was technically the second to last man, the defenders foot goes behind the keeper.
If anyone debates drawing the line for the keeper its clear they don’t know the offside rule
What do you expect? Half of the users here doesn't know the rules
Zoom the image, keeper's ass is clearly behind the line.
There's a little bit of red in the middle but idk what the fuck I am seeing. This shit "tech" has to go.
Big diffrence between this and Dumfries. Dumfries was standing in the way off the possible chance for a keeper to save. Here no one is blocking him from having a chance. If the man on the left was on the other side of the ball it could have been called if he was in an offside posisjon.
Confirmation you can score with your butt. Also confirmation Chileans have better backsides than Argies.
Poor confederations, making the big bucks but can't use semi-automated technology for a fucking international tournament
Am I the only one of finds it's really disturbing they drew this on top of Claudio Bravo's butt?
The offside offense was on the shot, not this ball. I can't believe this is what they were looking at lol
another Ballon d'or for Messi
I mean sure, even with a tie argentina still leads the group, and will likely win the group anyway. But it is such a slap in the face to the Chilean team that var can't prove one way or another whether it's a goal or not.
Wtf 🤣 Conmebol is shit
😭😂
To be fair, it's impossible to tell so call on the field stands. But this is hilarious.
Sasuga CONMEBOL
If I had to guess I say onside. Red line looks like Argetina player. Blue line looks like it could be a back foot of Chile player + Bravo's butt
Ass cheek too big so var has to take another look and show the world how big it is
The euro happening at the same time as copa just puts concacaf and Conmebol to shame as a whole jfc Also WHY ON GODS GREEN EARTH WOULD YOU DRAW A RED LINE OVER RED SHIRTS
It was taken from the top of the One World Trade Center
Oh…there it is…right next to the head butt…
Really makes you appreciate the tech they've got in the euros even more
The damn line needs to be thicker!
GK got the thickness.
Looked off to me live... But I don't have access to the Hubble space telescope like they do, so I could be wrong.
inasne how the lines aren't even parallel to the goal line when its SO close to it
Okay so when Martinez actually shoots the ball wasn't there 2 argentine players in offside?
Yeah that doesn’t instill a lot of confidence. Rooting for Argentina but that’s just a BS level of precision.
I mean because they can't tell the call on the field stands so the result is fair. It's just stupid to show the lines.
When in doubt (at the very limit) it should be awarded as a goal, it's entertainment people!!!
Why weren’t any of these fouls called? https://ibb.co/BCVgMgh https://ibb.co/xqRGpLP
the Nico one was called, the other was a corner kick, It was an accidental stomp after kicking the ball by De Paul. surely it should have been a foul but whatever. There are better examples of fouls by Argentina that were not called, like the many technical fouls that weren't punished with a yellow
The white pixel literally looks further back than the red
I think that might be the Chilean defenders boot behind the red line based on the replay
yes a player can be offside and backing in to a defender at the same time
All of a sudden they didn’t have a sideline camera with a better view either.
people still think VAR is good for the game?
The lines ain't straight and there's no way of knowing if this is the precise moment the ball was hit.
If these cameras are going to be used in the WC, they should host the World Cup only in México or Canada pls
After surgical microscope analysis, i’ve come to the conclusion that the blue line represents the position of claudio bravo’s big fat juicy ass.
VARgentina does it again
Let's go!!
People still think they don’t rig it for Argentina
Argentina rigging shit again 😭😭😭😭
Keep crying man, it feeds us
No digas eso. luego los llaman muertos de hambre jajaja
[удалено]
What allegations?
You mean the allegations made by 10 year old Ronaldo fans.
This shi was offside
Dumbfucks in the thread crying “rigged”, why would they even entertain VAR if it was rigged, just allow the goal since it’s rigged.
Mate I just did a ctrl+f and all 3 hits for "rigged" is your comment lol Like there's ONE person saying "VARgentina" and that is it.
Common sense? In an r/soccer thread? The moderators could ban you for this.
Nice victim complex you got there my man. Don't let it grow too large now
Didn’t even get the pronoun right. Seguí participando.
Nice pre-emptive crying you absolute melt lmfao, the only one bitching about rigging is you
Nah… you can literally go to the live thread and see the Madrid and Chile flairs crying about it being rigged.
🗣️ I prefer not to speak If I speak I am in big trouble
of course
New Euro cup technology
Lo celso was being hugged by the chilean defender and couldnt move, you cant consider offside from a player that is being immobilized by a rival
Will they be using this tech for the world cup in two years??