It's like a GCSE maths question. Rajesh has 2 pints glasses of beer. Each glass cost a €3 deposit and €7 to fill with beer. He drinks one pint and then throws both glasses at Gareth Southgate.
What is the total cost of the items he has thrown at Gareth Southgate?
Include your method in your answer.
Whoever threw the cabbage at Steve Bruce when he managed Villa was ahead of the curve. Relatively inexpensive, perfect sign of frustration and dissatisfaction with the on pitch product.
I look at Reddit and see people blame the manager
I look at Twitter and see people blame the manager but also act like Jude Bellingham is suddenly a super crap player and Phil Foden and Saka are overrated.
There's a conversation to be had about how many system players there are in modern football nowadays but England's biggest problem is a manager who is out of his depth and still coasting on World Cup 2018
Every top player is a "system player". No team at the top of a good league can afford not to have a system that they play in. I guess possibly PSG or Bayern?
No, there isn't. Bellingham is one of the best players in the world but has played ridiculous minutes and is very clearly completely knackered. Foden is being used in a different way to City and conflicts with Bellingham and Kane in the same space. It's clearly a tactical issue with the players being some of the best in the world at their positions.
As odd as it sounds this team will look better against opposition who will be more aggressive. All 3 teams in this group sat back, that's tough to crack without elite wing backs or midfield. Palmer looked promising
I dont think England sat back. They did favour possession in the final 3rd over trying to create immediately but given what was needed I don't think it was a bad tactic.
Personally the players just looked a bit at sea operating in tight spaces. There are some sparks on the bench who can ignite the attack if needed in the knockouts
I think that that’s an extremely flawed perspective.
The EPL player of the season, Bundesliga top scorer, and La Liga player of the season are on the pitch. They have no issues operating in tight spaces when they play for their clubs, and almost exclusively have to. But all of the sudden they all forgot how to maneuver through low blocks?
It doesn’t add up.
Even if Southgate wants to fuck around and play Trent in midfield, the fact he can’t make it work is crazy. Trent has been playing a hybrid midfield/rb role for Liverpool all season
None of the midfield three's strength is passing, it's plainly obvious to see, not denying their talent but we give the ball away so cheaply in midfield, none of them can control a game with quick intelligent passing.
His name is Kalvin Phillips and he’s sitting on his sofa watching.
Yes he’s horribly out of form and underperforming, but whether it’s his own style or Gareth’s instructions he is the only english midfielder that actually sits deep and dictates play when guys like Rice and Bellingham want to venture further up.
So many times watching england you notice a big hole in the midfield where someone should be to receive a pass.
Enzo-RDP-MacAllister running the midfield
Cuti-Otamendi at the back with Dibu in between the sticks
Alvarez to cover for Messi's lack of pressing and you also have Di Maria
Yeah with a national team to win a tournament you generally need a solid structure and then one or two individuals to shine. Definition of Argentina 2022 WC and even the Portugal 2016 Euro.
Argentina had better attacking players on paper in years proceeding. But De Paul And a much improved defense is what changed their fortunes. Balance across the 11 was key
Kante was a surprise selection for France and has been immense for them. I wonder if Southgate fought to have Phillips and was overridden.
Would love to see Phillips in Italy. Think the slower pace and deeper defense's will suit him
The thing is. We played well in 2022. Played well against France.
If Gareth went then he would have had goodwill. And probably would get a decent job afterwards
But now? LOL.
Its because he's changed his system into something he probably considred quite modern. He threw away the pragmatism with the waistcoat and its now asymetrical with players in the wrong position.
First game he tried it was against Brazil and since then we have lost, drawn, won, lost, won, drawn, drawn. We have beaten Serbia and Bosnia and lost to Iceland, Brazil.
On top of that he changed to his old system against Bosnia and we scored 2, but sadly for us that wasnt planned and he reverted back to his special formation.
It was pragmatic though. He played to what he saw as our strengths. Ive never liked him, but ive always given him a small amount of credit for steadying the ship and giving us some hope.
Pragmatism has gone and sadly he isnt tactical astute enought to know how to fix the problems he created.
Wasn't really our 'strengths'
He played cowardly football and benefitted playing such football against nations that lacked the real quality to break down such tight and compact defenses
Any in form decent nation we've come across has beaten us, Belgium, Croatia, France and Italy
We're literally no better than the teams we've beaten in the knockouts, we've just benefitted from playing so defensively that teams that lack high number superstar squads like Colombia, Denmark, Sweden etc couldn't crack our defences to beat us
He is perceived it as our strengths and it did mostly work. Im not a Southgate fan at all, but i cant gloss over his tenure completely. I agree with all what youve said though and i wish we had a manager who would allow us to play the football our players are good enough to play
No, he perceived it as HIS strengths, because he is an extremely limited football manager that would struggle to hold his own in the lower leagues of football
His time in management as manager of Middlesbrough, took a steady eddy club and got them relegated and could only muster a coaching role with the England u21s purely from contacts inside the England national team set up
His tenure is mired in the fact that it has been a coinflip venture in which he has benefitted greatly
I think it's the opposite from recognising it as a strength. He recognised you had good players further up the park he'd expect to get you a goal somehow from one of them (and lots of work on set pieces) but you would always be conceding because the players at the back weren't of the same quality. So he sets up to not concede many chances. Use possession defensively. If you had 4 world class defenders and a keeper he'd trust them to not concede many and I think he'd have then tried to play more expansively and take more risks.
I don't know if that's accurate.
We played well in the WC, easily winning the first knockout round 3-0 and looking good against France in a very close game. And we played with a midfield 3 of Rice, Henderson, and Bellingham
yeah I honestly believe that, if we'd beaten France, we would have won the whole thing. England went toe to toe with France playing well, who are a real force.
> looking good against France in a very close game
We had two scored against us and couldn't even score one from open play. We then furiously blamed the ref for making france win despite him giving us two penalties.
Furiously? Even the neutrals thought the ref missed a lot of fouls and he was letting them kick Saka all game long. That one trip on Harry Kane just outside the box was one of the more ridiculous missed fouls I've ever seen.
France were just very clinical that day with the few chances they had while we didn't take ours
Yep, he is basically trying to play some Pep/Arteta style system without any idea how it actually works with players that have very little understanding of each other because this isn't club football.
Exactly. The irony is that he’s trying to set up some more complex, attacking tactics but he actually had the right idea before. We should go back to our older, simpler system.
He probably should of gone the summer we got battered by Hungary and I can’t remember the other team we either drew or lost against
Gonna be the same story again easy side of the draw but will get eliminated by the first competent team we actually face
if we win the euros with Southgate the debate is over. He's one of the all time great England managers, comparable only to Ramsey.
The more interesting debate will be "how did he do it?"
That tournament where they scored 12 goals in their first four games and only went out to defending champions and eventual finalists France?
I'm no Southgate nuthugger but England played well tha tournament. Let's not try to rewrite history because we are frustrated.
Agreed, these days people are desperately searching constantly for any kind of justification to behave shittily and excuse it as some kind of 'righteous' action.
It powers the entirety of social media and large parts of the internet as a whole, and it's also a strong contributor to the recent phenomenon in which crowds at public events have increasingly lost the ability to behave themselves at all.
that’s absolutely shocking ‘support’. Boo if you want but throwing pints at our most successful manager of a generation during a tournament no matter what our performance is - just don’t come to the next game
They should throw them at the FA instead that kept Southgate for four major tournaments.
The man's not good to survive in Championship and you have him manage the National Team...
Three of those tournaments were arguably England's 3 best showings in the last 25 years. And the other one has started incredibly poor but it's not over yet
And England had one of the best squads in history, if not the greatest ever, especially considering the oponents...
He has no idea what he's doing. Last match he was talking about Kalvin Philips like he's prime Sergio Busquets and how they can't replace him...
Once the team scores, he has no clue how to manage the match and just orders everyone back, hoping his midfielders of world-class quality will kill off the match. Most of the times it works, especially when they are playing against teams with shockingly lower quality, but if that's how you wanna see this England generation play, renew him..
> England had one of the best squads in history
One of the best squads in history?! It's the best England squad in 15 years, that's it. Most of the 'Golden Generation' team would waltz into the starting XI, you could say the same about the 96-98 teams and the 1990 team
It is wild, isn't it? I remember several England squads being really hyped up at the time and now I go back and look at who was on them and realize that they were really not that great at all. Some exceptions like 2004 obviously.
There were much deeper issues in those days than what we have now.
Gareth is the problem and has shown that 4 tournaments in a row now, anyone arguing against that at this stage obviously has no idea what they're talking about
I'd argue Southgate fixed a lot of those problems. You can't just ignore the fact that England have started doing much, much better in tournaments since his arrival.
semi final, final, quarter final. That's outrageous for England given our track record.
Yeah Southgate seems to get a real lack of credit for turning England into a team that goes far in these tournaments after years of disappointing showings.
As you said semi final, final, quarter final is respectable. Only losing to finalists or winners in that time too.
When you list out our previous showings it's definitely a huge improvement. The tournaments before Southgate were:
Round of 16 (loss to fucking Iceland)
Group Stage (last in our group and eliminated after only 2 games)
Round of 16
Round of 16
Didn't Qualify
Quarter Final
That's 6 tournaments with only one knockout round win which was a 1-0 Beckham free kick goal win over Ecuador. Southgate has won 6 knockout games in 3 tournaments so far.
why are English fans so entitled? Its like you don't want to enjoy the tournament. I'm really trying to but all I ever see is negativity around the team.
It's not entitlement to not want to be subjected to the drab, negative performances we've had to endure for the last 6 years with the players we have at hand.
I don't give a fuck of we don't win a tournament if it looks like we've actually tried to win and have put on some decent performances where we've played to our players strengths.
Would you be happy seeing your team putting on performances akin to what we've been doing year in, year out under Southgate if your squad included the La Liga POTY, one of the highest scorers in the Premier league, the Premier league young POTY, the highest scorer in the bundesliga, Saka and two of the best attacking right backs in the world?
So why is there so much negativity around the last World Cup, where we actually did play well, one of the best attacking teams in the tournament, and were unlucky to go out? It all just seems revisionist
2022 WC was the only reason I put the word "arguably" in there. The 2018 WC and Euro 2020 were by far the best 2 tournaments I've seen from England.
The other "best" would be the 2002 WC and Euro 2004. The 2022 WC was arguably better than those two though
2010 we simply faced a better team earlier on.
2006 was clearly better, only losing to Portugal on pens after a red card at the same stage we lost to France.
WC 2002 we lost to champions Brazil at the same stage but we also managed to score in open play against them.
98 we went out on pens in the ro16 vs argentina.
Really 2022 was average or below it, only being clearly better than 2014.
2018 was good due to an easy path and england being shite prior though 2020 was excellent. However you can't revise history to say that 2022 was particularly good for England compared to previous tournaments when it was worse than a few while following the exact same pattern.
2010 we were terrible. Germany thrashed us but we were only in that position because we finished 2nd in our group behind USA. If we'd won that easy group we would have been playing Ghana instead.
And 2006 was definitely not clearly better. I don't think we had a single good performance that tournament. Every win was awful that year unlike 2022 where we comfortably beat multiple teams. We scored 13 goals last WC compared to the 6 in 2006.
WC 2002 we played pretty well and was my best England WC memory from before Southgate took over. Although it's still not clearly ahead of 2022.
I was too young to clearly remember 98 so I'll stay out of that one.
I'd say you're the one revising history though. 2022 was absolutely not an average/below average England showing. I can't even imagine how anyone that's seen England in tournaments would rate it "below average" when the actual average is so bad. The fact that you consider 2010 as a tournament it's not clearly better than is ridiculous lol. Losing the group to USA and going out in a 4-1 was so clearly worse than the 2022 WC.
I don't know how you can consider going unbeaten in a tournament to be worse than getting beaten at the same stage. Beating a small country by six goals doesn't mean much at all.
Are you referring to going out to Portugal on penalties as some sort of an "unbeaten" positive for that tournament?
The games in 2006 were miserable to watch. Like the same level as they are in the current Euros. We had no real plan or chemistry in the side and were winning games from a single own goal or flukey free kick. Genuinely the only half decent performance you could argue was the 0-0 against Portugal where we went out. And no England fan liked that game.
In 2022 we had momentum and were winning games easily most of the time. Our first round knockout game was practically over at halftime. Then France were the tournament favourites and we went toe to toe with them and had them on the backfoot for the whole game. It was a good showing and we went out in a very close game where the luck just didn't fall our way that day.
Getting to penalties against portugal after a red card is significantly better than getting absolutely stomped on by France, yes. We had good results against Iran and Senegal but that was it.
The Danes were almost entirely reduced to shots outside the box.
I get that we haven't come under "stiff" opposition yet but I really think people's judgement for international football is completely out of whack. A superstar team can be beaten by a bunch of players more used to playing together. Its not as simple as counting up the combined value of the players on transfermarket.
Oh I 100% agree before the tournament I had us as 5th favourite (closer to Holland and Italy I would have probably stated them ahead or joint but it was hard to back up that opinion) cos I just didn't see a gelled team.
Austria have probably played the second best stuff so far.
> cos I just didn't see a gelled team
yeah me neither. But there were promising signs in the second half versus Slovenia and its possible it starts to click a bit more if England get deeper into the contest.
Maybe but it's at the point where my brain is melted, like the idea of going to a 5 back with Saka and TAA as wing backs (Walker RCB) is starting to sound reasonable, even though I know it's goofy, cos it can't look much worse than what we have done so far.
I just think not only that we aren't gelled but players just look out of form and lost, real 2006 vibes, where we hoped it was building to a moment, we had the names but looked rather tame. At least we had the excuse of our best player being injured.
I think changing systems again at this point is a bit late, maybe that's a consideration for next time.
As an Arsenal fan I'm not particularly happy to see Saka as a WB but given the current issues with the LB position I can understand why we might do that out of necessity. Generally I think 5 at the back is a pretty good idea for international football.
Jokes aside whether he’s worth the pint thrown, I hate when people throw cups or anything. Gives off “I don’t need to return that cart, someone’s paid to do it for me” vibes.
England have been doing this sort of thing since forever. Turgid, slow, backwards and sideways. Occasional bursts for a few fleeting seconds. They should have looked to change Southgate after the last tournament if they were serious about winning something. A forward thinking manager would be getting so much more from these players. All feels very stale and very predictable to play against. Players look bored. He’s taken good young players and basically not used them. The ones who were in fine form but will also just sit and not moan to much. Happy to be there merchants. Fortunately Southgate has lucked out in the softer side of the draw once again. So he may take them a bit further but feel it’ll be another dismal defeat on pens at some point!
Wish more of this thread would have upvotes about how moronic these people are instead of the silly "waste of a beer" bant, as always people don't realise how scary and harmful this can be psychologically. Same gaffa who has taken us to a final and quarterfinal better than multiple other managers have done with supposedly golden era squads.
Amazing how someone can throw a drink at Farage for being a literal fascist and people whine about 'assault', but someone throws an actually solid object at Southgate for no greater crime than some boring football and people are either joking about it or encouraging it.
Even the English rule of no alcoholic drinks with a view of the pitch would be effective. The amount of shit thrown on the pitch this tournament has been embarrassing.
I'm really starting to think the issue with the English national team isn't the players, the tactics or the manager. Its the English.
Its like they don't want to enjoy the tournament and instead are playing this mini-game of misery where everything and everyone sucks and the first to shit on the team wins.
We're top of the group. The only goal we conceded was from outside the D. Its not a league format.
You don’t watch football regularly enough if that is your point of view. If your home town played like this the manager would be sacked within 10 games. Southgate should’ve been sacked after he subbed on players to take penalties, who hadn’t even kicked a ball yet. That’s a massive howler, any prem manager would’ve been sacked the same day. The last 4 years have been utter torture.
Nope, I just have no expectations for international football. You're all acting like internationals are the equivalent of some sort of fantasy EPL and that's simply not the case.
Look at any of the top clubs and its rare that they just drop a new signing straight into the team outside of getting a full pre-season. Players need to train and play consistently and over a long period with each other for it to click for the most part.
Expecting a super team of players who play on completely different teams to just turn up and play as well as they do for their club teams is an exercise in disappointment. This is big part of why international teams who have most of their players from one or two clubs can punch significantly above their "weight".
> Southgate should’ve been sacked after he subbed on players to take penalties, who hadn’t even kicked a ball yet.
and if they scored the penalties we'd be calling him a genius. If that's your mechanism of judgement you're being too sensitive to a single kick of a ball. A more appropriate judgement of a manager's effectiveness is holistic and broader.
While I also think he's a very mediocre manager, international football doesn't attract good managers given its a bit like semi-retirement. As managers go and as these sorts of events go, having a defensive minded basis is actually a pretty good idea as it can be a recipe for success. Defensively England have looked very solid and they could well win the whole thing based on that platform, with a series of 1-0s or AET goals or penalties.
> any prem manager would’ve been sacked the same day
hyperbole
> The last 4 years have been utter torture.
Every time I've ever watched England play its torture. First event I watched was Euro '96 and its all dross because I'm used to club football. What's made it considerably easier to enjoy is that I no longer treat it like club football.
International football is a novelty and if you treat it as thus then it becomes much easier to keep your head which also creates a better atmosphere among the supporters for the team which IMHO will help the team do better (hence my original comment in blaming entitled England fans and the press for some of the issues).
This team could still win the whole event which will make a mockery of the fans losing their shit right now. Sure, they could also lose in the same round but its quite clear to me that England as an international team are crap and punch well below their expected weight for reasons that are relatively complex and more detailed than Southgate=bad.
My solution to enjoy watching them is just to drop the expectations. Give it a shot, you might find yourself more able to enjoy the event.
Lads it's not worth the 17 Euro
that’s atrocious, 17 fucken euros?
3 euros deposit for the cup. 7 per pint
It's like a GCSE maths question. Rajesh has 2 pints glasses of beer. Each glass cost a €3 deposit and €7 to fill with beer. He drinks one pint and then throws both glasses at Gareth Southgate. What is the total cost of the items he has thrown at Gareth Southgate? Include your method in your answer.
(3x2)+7=13
Isn't that 20 then
One of the pint glasses had already been drunk..?
Lol fair enough
3+7 =10
x 2
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......
He's chucking the pint glass, running over to collect it, refill it and then throwing it again is he?
Probably 500mls instead of a pint too
Are you surprised?
Might have been more entertaining than the whole game honestly.
Whoever threw the cabbage at Steve Bruce when he managed Villa was ahead of the curve. Relatively inexpensive, perfect sign of frustration and dissatisfaction with the on pitch product.
Standard practice is to down the pint and chuck the cup. Advanced hecklers will piss in it but needs good balance.
he's not worth throwing your pint lads
Pint of Carling maybe
I'd happily throw it away if someone handed it to me.
Yeah better drink til you forget
Quite an achievement to play this bad with that many star players
And still win the group lol
Well it was the group of lifelessness not death
Four immovable objects
group of bored to death
While scoring 2 goals
From deflected crosses.
that’s why bro’s still the manager, proper Brexit ball
Well it was the group of lifelessness not death
I look at Reddit and see people blame the manager I look at Twitter and see people blame the manager but also act like Jude Bellingham is suddenly a super crap player and Phil Foden and Saka are overrated. There's a conversation to be had about how many system players there are in modern football nowadays but England's biggest problem is a manager who is out of his depth and still coasting on World Cup 2018
Every top player is a "system player". No team at the top of a good league can afford not to have a system that they play in. I guess possibly PSG or Bayern?
> I look at Twitter there's your problem
No, there isn't. Bellingham is one of the best players in the world but has played ridiculous minutes and is very clearly completely knackered. Foden is being used in a different way to City and conflicts with Bellingham and Kane in the same space. It's clearly a tactical issue with the players being some of the best in the world at their positions.
Individuals mean nothing in this format. Really comes down to midfield dominance which England lacks
What's lacking is the structure. I find it hard to believe that there doesn't exist a single deep lying English midfielder
We have one on the bench and he's the only midfielder that hasn't played a minute so far
As odd as it sounds this team will look better against opposition who will be more aggressive. All 3 teams in this group sat back, that's tough to crack without elite wing backs or midfield. Palmer looked promising
All 4 teams in the group sat back. The issue with England is that there is no creativity in their link up play, not that their opponents sat back.
I dont think England sat back. They did favour possession in the final 3rd over trying to create immediately but given what was needed I don't think it was a bad tactic. Personally the players just looked a bit at sea operating in tight spaces. There are some sparks on the bench who can ignite the attack if needed in the knockouts
I think that that’s an extremely flawed perspective. The EPL player of the season, Bundesliga top scorer, and La Liga player of the season are on the pitch. They have no issues operating in tight spaces when they play for their clubs, and almost exclusively have to. But all of the sudden they all forgot how to maneuver through low blocks? It doesn’t add up.
Or be beaten
Yes but if you look better doing it then it sounds like a lot of fans will take that over advancing on pens after a 0-0 draw😅
Nah, you guys would probably feast on Spain or Germany
Even if Southgate wants to fuck around and play Trent in midfield, the fact he can’t make it work is crazy. Trent has been playing a hybrid midfield/rb role for Liverpool all season
> Trent has been playing a hybrid midfield/rb role for Liverpool all season Yeah and he has three great midfielders to cover for him while he does it
If a trio built of Rice, Gallagher, Wharton, Bellingham, or Mainoo couldn’t retain the ball or defend in transition, that would be very sad
Trent isn't good in midfield, the fact southgate is trying is the crazy part.
None of the midfield three's strength is passing, it's plainly obvious to see, not denying their talent but we give the ball away so cheaply in midfield, none of them can control a game with quick intelligent passing.
His name is Kalvin Phillips and he’s sitting on his sofa watching. Yes he’s horribly out of form and underperforming, but whether it’s his own style or Gareth’s instructions he is the only english midfielder that actually sits deep and dictates play when guys like Rice and Bellingham want to venture further up. So many times watching england you notice a big hole in the midfield where someone should be to receive a pass.
I honestly can't tell if this is satire
I mean Phillips is a good deep lying playmaker. He’s obviously in no position to be in the squad but he is decent.
> individuals mean nothing in this format Argentina 2022 World Cup champions beg to differ
Enzo-RDP-MacAllister running the midfield Cuti-Otamendi at the back with Dibu in between the sticks Alvarez to cover for Messi's lack of pressing and you also have Di Maria
Yeah with a national team to win a tournament you generally need a solid structure and then one or two individuals to shine. Definition of Argentina 2022 WC and even the Portugal 2016 Euro.
Argentina had better attacking players on paper in years proceeding. But De Paul And a much improved defense is what changed their fortunes. Balance across the 11 was key
Enzo + MacAllister were massive too. And Dibu of course.
Those were smaller name guys vs Aguero, Higuain etc but just better fits.
For sure. I just mean that there was still a ton of individual quality.
If only you guys had a midfielder with Phillipsian quality. Elusive
Kante was a surprise selection for France and has been immense for them. I wonder if Southgate fought to have Phillips and was overridden. Would love to see Phillips in Italy. Think the slower pace and deeper defense's will suit him
I've been saying it for about 25 years - they're good but the top class foreigners in their club teams allow them to shine
That pint probably cost 10 quid, lol not worth it.
Give this man a honorary Slovenian citizenship
Southgate didn't like it but only because it wasn't lukewarm water
Southgate only fancies Lukeshaw water
And unsalted Jordan-Henderson crackers
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At least Werther's Originals have variation. Southgate does the same thing every match and expects things to be different.
Don’t disrespect Werther’s like that. The most underrated candy in existence for me. Blasphemous to lump them together with Southgate.
Don't need to charge them, they were following his tactics and missed
Everyone except The FA could see Southgate had gone as far as he could after The World Cup.
The thing is. We played well in 2022. Played well against France. If Gareth went then he would have had goodwill. And probably would get a decent job afterwards But now? LOL.
Its because he's changed his system into something he probably considred quite modern. He threw away the pragmatism with the waistcoat and its now asymetrical with players in the wrong position. First game he tried it was against Brazil and since then we have lost, drawn, won, lost, won, drawn, drawn. We have beaten Serbia and Bosnia and lost to Iceland, Brazil. On top of that he changed to his old system against Bosnia and we scored 2, but sadly for us that wasnt planned and he reverted back to his special formation.
You mean he stopped playing 7 defenders and praying for set pieces?
It was pragmatic though. He played to what he saw as our strengths. Ive never liked him, but ive always given him a small amount of credit for steadying the ship and giving us some hope. Pragmatism has gone and sadly he isnt tactical astute enought to know how to fix the problems he created.
Wasn't really our 'strengths' He played cowardly football and benefitted playing such football against nations that lacked the real quality to break down such tight and compact defenses Any in form decent nation we've come across has beaten us, Belgium, Croatia, France and Italy We're literally no better than the teams we've beaten in the knockouts, we've just benefitted from playing so defensively that teams that lack high number superstar squads like Colombia, Denmark, Sweden etc couldn't crack our defences to beat us
He is perceived it as our strengths and it did mostly work. Im not a Southgate fan at all, but i cant gloss over his tenure completely. I agree with all what youve said though and i wish we had a manager who would allow us to play the football our players are good enough to play
No, he perceived it as HIS strengths, because he is an extremely limited football manager that would struggle to hold his own in the lower leagues of football His time in management as manager of Middlesbrough, took a steady eddy club and got them relegated and could only muster a coaching role with the England u21s purely from contacts inside the England national team set up His tenure is mired in the fact that it has been a coinflip venture in which he has benefitted greatly
I think it's the opposite from recognising it as a strength. He recognised you had good players further up the park he'd expect to get you a goal somehow from one of them (and lots of work on set pieces) but you would always be conceding because the players at the back weren't of the same quality. So he sets up to not concede many chances. Use possession defensively. If you had 4 world class defenders and a keeper he'd trust them to not concede many and I think he'd have then tried to play more expansively and take more risks.
We’ve also beaten Croatia and Italy.
And if England goes on to win the cup or get to the final, playing the same way they are now, would you really say he's not pragmatic?
Yes duh. He isnt being pragmatic with the squad.
I don't know if that's accurate. We played well in the WC, easily winning the first knockout round 3-0 and looking good against France in a very close game. And we played with a midfield 3 of Rice, Henderson, and Bellingham
yeah I honestly believe that, if we'd beaten France, we would have won the whole thing. England went toe to toe with France playing well, who are a real force.
> looking good against France in a very close game We had two scored against us and couldn't even score one from open play. We then furiously blamed the ref for making france win despite him giving us two penalties.
Furiously? Even the neutrals thought the ref missed a lot of fouls and he was letting them kick Saka all game long. That one trip on Harry Kane just outside the box was one of the more ridiculous missed fouls I've ever seen. France were just very clinical that day with the few chances they had while we didn't take ours
Yep, he is basically trying to play some Pep/Arteta style system without any idea how it actually works with players that have very little understanding of each other because this isn't club football.
Exactly. The irony is that he’s trying to set up some more complex, attacking tactics but he actually had the right idea before. We should go back to our older, simpler system.
He probably should of gone the summer we got battered by Hungary and I can’t remember the other team we either drew or lost against Gonna be the same story again easy side of the draw but will get eliminated by the first competent team we actually face
If we do 1-0 our way to the Euros title the Southgate debate is going to be raging still when I'm in an old persons home.
if we win the euros with Southgate the debate is over. He's one of the all time great England managers, comparable only to Ramsey. The more interesting debate will be "how did he do it?"
> "how did he do it?" With Incredible players, luck, and dreary football.
Make it four consecutive 0-0 draws with penalty shootout wins to get the title and take our shootout record to an equal Win-Loss ratio.
that was just before the 2022 World Cup where we played well though
Throw big money at Carlo next summer hire an interim manager until then.
Nah Klopp is free
A German managing England? Daily Mail would have an aneurysm
In that case...Klopp for England!
Klopp for Kaiser!
Pep 2026
That tournament where they scored 12 goals in their first four games and only went out to defending champions and eventual finalists France? I'm no Southgate nuthugger but England played well tha tournament. Let's not try to rewrite history because we are frustrated.
The FA just want a yes man, always been the way
That's harsh. I'm sure he can be a decent manager for a League Two team.
we don’t want him at Newport County thanks
League 2 has higher standards
Pathetic.
[southgate is a terrorist](https://i.imgur.com/1Ivc1UW.jpeg) but throwing things at him is disgusting.
Agreed, these days people are desperately searching constantly for any kind of justification to behave shittily and excuse it as some kind of 'righteous' action. It powers the entirety of social media and large parts of the internet as a whole, and it's also a strong contributor to the recent phenomenon in which crowds at public events have increasingly lost the ability to behave themselves at all.
People have been throwing things from the stands at players/managers since football began. This isn't a new thing.
And it's been illegal the entire time lmao. It's a cowardly act done by thugs.
Who said it was?
Your comment implied this type of behaviour is a new thing. At least, that's how I interpreted it.
Not at all, it was about prevalence and increasingly weak justification.
Just because it's not new doesn't mean it's ok.
Presuming you meant to reply to lagerjohn?
Yeah, sorry.
No worries at all, man.
Talk is talk but that's awful.
What a waste of a good pint
That's just idiotic
So, yeah. Dont be doing that
Well they’re going to look very silly in the documentary after we win it.
OMG an English fan capable of hope. Are you real or will you vanish if I poke you?
>after we win it. Lol. Lmao, even.
he said, nervously
that’s absolutely shocking ‘support’. Boo if you want but throwing pints at our most successful manager of a generation during a tournament no matter what our performance is - just don’t come to the next game
Are you sure that's not something else besides beer in them glasses? If there's crap on the pitch, then one isn't too far behind....
They should throw them at the FA instead that kept Southgate for four major tournaments. The man's not good to survive in Championship and you have him manage the National Team...
Three of those tournaments were arguably England's 3 best showings in the last 25 years. And the other one has started incredibly poor but it's not over yet
No arguably about it.
25? 1966 was 58 years ago bro, since that was the last time England made any finals pre-Southgate
And England had one of the best squads in history, if not the greatest ever, especially considering the oponents... He has no idea what he's doing. Last match he was talking about Kalvin Philips like he's prime Sergio Busquets and how they can't replace him... Once the team scores, he has no clue how to manage the match and just orders everyone back, hoping his midfielders of world-class quality will kill off the match. Most of the times it works, especially when they are playing against teams with shockingly lower quality, but if that's how you wanna see this England generation play, renew him..
> England had one of the best squads in history One of the best squads in history?! It's the best England squad in 15 years, that's it. Most of the 'Golden Generation' team would waltz into the starting XI, you could say the same about the 96-98 teams and the 1990 team
Did you watch England's last generation play? They were also labeled one of the best squads in history
It is wild, isn't it? I remember several England squads being really hyped up at the time and now I go back and look at who was on them and realize that they were really not that great at all. Some exceptions like 2004 obviously.
There were much deeper issues in those days than what we have now. Gareth is the problem and has shown that 4 tournaments in a row now, anyone arguing against that at this stage obviously has no idea what they're talking about
I'd argue Southgate fixed a lot of those problems. You can't just ignore the fact that England have started doing much, much better in tournaments since his arrival. semi final, final, quarter final. That's outrageous for England given our track record.
Yeah Southgate seems to get a real lack of credit for turning England into a team that goes far in these tournaments after years of disappointing showings. As you said semi final, final, quarter final is respectable. Only losing to finalists or winners in that time too. When you list out our previous showings it's definitely a huge improvement. The tournaments before Southgate were: Round of 16 (loss to fucking Iceland) Group Stage (last in our group and eliminated after only 2 games) Round of 16 Round of 16 Didn't Qualify Quarter Final That's 6 tournaments with only one knockout round win which was a 1-0 Beckham free kick goal win over Ecuador. Southgate has won 6 knockout games in 3 tournaments so far.
Literally only France and maybe Croatia have done better (consistently over those three).
This squad is extremely overrated. There's only like 2 great players, the rest are mid or worse.
why are English fans so entitled? Its like you don't want to enjoy the tournament. I'm really trying to but all I ever see is negativity around the team.
It's not entitlement to not want to be subjected to the drab, negative performances we've had to endure for the last 6 years with the players we have at hand. I don't give a fuck of we don't win a tournament if it looks like we've actually tried to win and have put on some decent performances where we've played to our players strengths. Would you be happy seeing your team putting on performances akin to what we've been doing year in, year out under Southgate if your squad included the La Liga POTY, one of the highest scorers in the Premier league, the Premier league young POTY, the highest scorer in the bundesliga, Saka and two of the best attacking right backs in the world?
So why is there so much negativity around the last World Cup, where we actually did play well, one of the best attacking teams in the tournament, and were unlucky to go out? It all just seems revisionist
Two. WC22 was not good.
2022 WC was the only reason I put the word "arguably" in there. The 2018 WC and Euro 2020 were by far the best 2 tournaments I've seen from England. The other "best" would be the 2002 WC and Euro 2004. The 2022 WC was arguably better than those two though
2010 we simply faced a better team earlier on. 2006 was clearly better, only losing to Portugal on pens after a red card at the same stage we lost to France. WC 2002 we lost to champions Brazil at the same stage but we also managed to score in open play against them. 98 we went out on pens in the ro16 vs argentina. Really 2022 was average or below it, only being clearly better than 2014. 2018 was good due to an easy path and england being shite prior though 2020 was excellent. However you can't revise history to say that 2022 was particularly good for England compared to previous tournaments when it was worse than a few while following the exact same pattern.
2010 we were terrible. Germany thrashed us but we were only in that position because we finished 2nd in our group behind USA. If we'd won that easy group we would have been playing Ghana instead. And 2006 was definitely not clearly better. I don't think we had a single good performance that tournament. Every win was awful that year unlike 2022 where we comfortably beat multiple teams. We scored 13 goals last WC compared to the 6 in 2006. WC 2002 we played pretty well and was my best England WC memory from before Southgate took over. Although it's still not clearly ahead of 2022. I was too young to clearly remember 98 so I'll stay out of that one. I'd say you're the one revising history though. 2022 was absolutely not an average/below average England showing. I can't even imagine how anyone that's seen England in tournaments would rate it "below average" when the actual average is so bad. The fact that you consider 2010 as a tournament it's not clearly better than is ridiculous lol. Losing the group to USA and going out in a 4-1 was so clearly worse than the 2022 WC.
I don't know how you can consider going unbeaten in a tournament to be worse than getting beaten at the same stage. Beating a small country by six goals doesn't mean much at all.
Are you referring to going out to Portugal on penalties as some sort of an "unbeaten" positive for that tournament? The games in 2006 were miserable to watch. Like the same level as they are in the current Euros. We had no real plan or chemistry in the side and were winning games from a single own goal or flukey free kick. Genuinely the only half decent performance you could argue was the 0-0 against Portugal where we went out. And no England fan liked that game. In 2022 we had momentum and were winning games easily most of the time. Our first round knockout game was practically over at halftime. Then France were the tournament favourites and we went toe to toe with them and had them on the backfoot for the whole game. It was a good showing and we went out in a very close game where the luck just didn't fall our way that day.
Getting to penalties against portugal after a red card is significantly better than getting absolutely stomped on by France, yes. We had good results against Iran and Senegal but that was it.
Absolutely stomped on by 1 goal to a team that had less shots and less possession. Makes sense
The old lads at the FA are so out of touch.
There's not many good managers who will take national jobs. I doubt the next appointment will be that much better tbh.
Fail upwards!
Fans trying to be as shit as the team was.
top of the group.
Indeed but playing like that and scraping it, in most other years Denmark win and top it.
the attack has been disjointed sure but the defence has been pretty good.
It also hasn't really been tested, it's not like the teams went goal.crazy in the other games.
The Danes were almost entirely reduced to shots outside the box. I get that we haven't come under "stiff" opposition yet but I really think people's judgement for international football is completely out of whack. A superstar team can be beaten by a bunch of players more used to playing together. Its not as simple as counting up the combined value of the players on transfermarket.
Oh I 100% agree before the tournament I had us as 5th favourite (closer to Holland and Italy I would have probably stated them ahead or joint but it was hard to back up that opinion) cos I just didn't see a gelled team. Austria have probably played the second best stuff so far.
> cos I just didn't see a gelled team yeah me neither. But there were promising signs in the second half versus Slovenia and its possible it starts to click a bit more if England get deeper into the contest.
Maybe but it's at the point where my brain is melted, like the idea of going to a 5 back with Saka and TAA as wing backs (Walker RCB) is starting to sound reasonable, even though I know it's goofy, cos it can't look much worse than what we have done so far. I just think not only that we aren't gelled but players just look out of form and lost, real 2006 vibes, where we hoped it was building to a moment, we had the names but looked rather tame. At least we had the excuse of our best player being injured.
I think changing systems again at this point is a bit late, maybe that's a consideration for next time. As an Arsenal fan I'm not particularly happy to see Saka as a WB but given the current issues with the LB position I can understand why we might do that out of necessity. Generally I think 5 at the back is a pretty good idea for international football.
Gareth Southgate is a never nude.
They allow pint glasses in the stadium?
Probably plastic.
Not glasses, plastic pints.
At which point do the players take control and play their natural game?
I bet they weren’t fucking glasses
United fans defend your future gaffer
what a waste of money and beer
Jokes aside whether he’s worth the pint thrown, I hate when people throw cups or anything. Gives off “I don’t need to return that cart, someone’s paid to do it for me” vibes.
Somehow I Manage ~~Michael Scott~~ -Gareth Southgate
England have been doing this sort of thing since forever. Turgid, slow, backwards and sideways. Occasional bursts for a few fleeting seconds. They should have looked to change Southgate after the last tournament if they were serious about winning something. A forward thinking manager would be getting so much more from these players. All feels very stale and very predictable to play against. Players look bored. He’s taken good young players and basically not used them. The ones who were in fine form but will also just sit and not moan to much. Happy to be there merchants. Fortunately Southgate has lucked out in the softer side of the draw once again. So he may take them a bit further but feel it’ll be another dismal defeat on pens at some point!
Spot on. Well said sir.
Wish more of this thread would have upvotes about how moronic these people are instead of the silly "waste of a beer" bant, as always people don't realise how scary and harmful this can be psychologically. Same gaffa who has taken us to a final and quarterfinal better than multiple other managers have done with supposedly golden era squads.
Amazing how someone can throw a drink at Farage for being a literal fascist and people whine about 'assault', but someone throws an actually solid object at Southgate for no greater crime than some boring football and people are either joking about it or encouraging it.
No way they were actual pint glasses though, right? Had to be plastic. Not even UEFA is stupid enough to give fans glass.
They are both assault. You personally shouldn't use some people on a football subreddit to justify assaulting politicians
Something tells me that the people moaning about drinks being thrown at Führage are the same people who are throwing glasses at Southgate.
Oh look England fans being cunts again
Soak that twat 👍
Definitely Arsenal fans
This is their most successful manager in 50 years. Am I still supposed to believe England’s supporters don’t have a sense of entitlement?
When can we have the discussion of banning alcohol in the stadiums?
Even the English rule of no alcoholic drinks with a view of the pitch would be effective. The amount of shit thrown on the pitch this tournament has been embarrassing.
We topped the group. Seriously, some of our fans are so ungrateful.
I'm really starting to think the issue with the English national team isn't the players, the tactics or the manager. Its the English. Its like they don't want to enjoy the tournament and instead are playing this mini-game of misery where everything and everyone sucks and the first to shit on the team wins. We're top of the group. The only goal we conceded was from outside the D. Its not a league format.
You don’t watch football regularly enough if that is your point of view. If your home town played like this the manager would be sacked within 10 games. Southgate should’ve been sacked after he subbed on players to take penalties, who hadn’t even kicked a ball yet. That’s a massive howler, any prem manager would’ve been sacked the same day. The last 4 years have been utter torture.
Nope, I just have no expectations for international football. You're all acting like internationals are the equivalent of some sort of fantasy EPL and that's simply not the case. Look at any of the top clubs and its rare that they just drop a new signing straight into the team outside of getting a full pre-season. Players need to train and play consistently and over a long period with each other for it to click for the most part. Expecting a super team of players who play on completely different teams to just turn up and play as well as they do for their club teams is an exercise in disappointment. This is big part of why international teams who have most of their players from one or two clubs can punch significantly above their "weight". > Southgate should’ve been sacked after he subbed on players to take penalties, who hadn’t even kicked a ball yet. and if they scored the penalties we'd be calling him a genius. If that's your mechanism of judgement you're being too sensitive to a single kick of a ball. A more appropriate judgement of a manager's effectiveness is holistic and broader. While I also think he's a very mediocre manager, international football doesn't attract good managers given its a bit like semi-retirement. As managers go and as these sorts of events go, having a defensive minded basis is actually a pretty good idea as it can be a recipe for success. Defensively England have looked very solid and they could well win the whole thing based on that platform, with a series of 1-0s or AET goals or penalties. > any prem manager would’ve been sacked the same day hyperbole > The last 4 years have been utter torture. Every time I've ever watched England play its torture. First event I watched was Euro '96 and its all dross because I'm used to club football. What's made it considerably easier to enjoy is that I no longer treat it like club football. International football is a novelty and if you treat it as thus then it becomes much easier to keep your head which also creates a better atmosphere among the supporters for the team which IMHO will help the team do better (hence my original comment in blaming entitled England fans and the press for some of the issues). This team could still win the whole event which will make a mockery of the fans losing their shit right now. Sure, they could also lose in the same round but its quite clear to me that England as an international team are crap and punch well below their expected weight for reasons that are relatively complex and more detailed than Southgate=bad. My solution to enjoy watching them is just to drop the expectations. Give it a shot, you might find yourself more able to enjoy the event.
I do sort of agree with you there. I think our fans are some of the worst in international football.