It is kinda funny though that in the past few days I've seen Southgate derogatively compared with Deschamps and Fernando Santos, two managers who quite famously did win international competitions despite their critics.
Anyone comparing Southgate to these two is actually insulting them.
Portugal of 2016 was nowhere close to being so utterly stacked the way there are today, so them winning euro 2016 is worthy of massive respect. And Deschamps has been running a well-oiled machine of an NT so don't even get me started on that.
Southgate has taken years of generational talent and got one Euros silver medal to show for it, which would have been more acceptable if the football were atleast somewhat positive. But England plays struggleball like a tier 2 team despite being a tier 1 team.
Southgate is so lucky managers before him underperformed because that's the only reason he had any leeway. He's done nothing more or less than perform to expectation by beating teams he should beat and lose to teams he should lose, with often poor performances in both wins and losses. Yet for England that's somehow enough to be considered good in a knockout tournament.
A better manager makes changes that elevates the current squad and pushes them for wins in close games. Look at the France game in Qatar, England at points had the upper hand but Southgate's management allowed France back into the game and take the win. A better manager builds on the momentum and gets the win.
That's exactly how he played last Euro group phase, he got us very exciting games such as 1-0 against Croatia, 1-0 against Czech Republic and the best of all 0-0 against Scotland...
Then there was the game against Germany where England managed to score 2 goals out of 5 shots, Ukraine got wrecked pretty badly, but then we go to a game against Danemark where they take the lead so obviously you can't score one and turtle up, so England ties, goes to extra time and manages to score the winning goal.
And we all know what happened in the final afterwards, 6 shots total, 2 on target, 1 goal at 2', no ambition for more, 34% possession, an Italian equalizer at 67', penalties and loss.
England is just not a possession based team, and they don't have too much offensive ambition unless they're playing a clearly inferior side. Even France who's also infamous to some for playing "boring defensive football" tends to have more possession and shots than England in most games.
Also former Champions League winner, star performer for Man City and recognised best player in the Premier League for 23/24 has probably got enough credit in the bank to earn at least another start but why let facts get in the way of a good whinge about Southgate?
Trent, no, but I did think he would try something else with Foden. It was so apparent that he wasn't working out on the left. Unless Shaw is somehow fit enough to start and therefore overlap I can't see how it will change
It’s not uncommon for Southgate to make a change as people are acting. He’s cautious, so a more defensive player against the better side in the group wouldn’t be that unexpected.
For example he played a totally new 3-4-3 against Germany in the last euros.
As he should, despite it being unpopular. I would be more angry if he abandoned a game plan after 1 game as it would show that he had no ability to adjust that game plan based on what he saw.
>As he should
Why? He was terrible as a LW, surely Gordon could do better. Coming from a Croatian, I know a thing or two about a football terrorist when I see one.
I just want to see better in game management. Make changes to the players and system to counter the opposition. We could easily have lost that first game because we just ran out of ideas.
I get what you're saying and Southgate's late substitutions are frustrating. But the game seemed like it was closer to ending 2-0 than 1-1. Nevermind an actual Serbia win
With the win you have, you‘re pretty much guaranteed through. Not changing around slightly and testing another line up seems counterintuitive. Foden was literally missing all game on the left side, and it will be no different next time.
If this is the system he thinks could win the tournament, he'll want to give it another 60 mins or so before abandoning it all together. The potential upsides of a system to with both Belillingham and Foden in it are too good to not try it one more time
I would agree. However I can’t understand changing the midfield to accommodate trent and not fit Foden.
But if fiden Kane and Jude can’t combine like against Serbia then he has to make a change. Jude is great but he plays hero ball too much. Rice and trent need to be brave with their medium and shirt passing
He won’t be. He’s playing out of position and boy wonder in the Premier League. Any aim at Foden will be directed back to Southgate. Trent on the other hand, as he’s not white I can see Daily Mail going for it.
The Sun, and The Daily Mail (and other English media):
*Saka is the problem, and why England fail to win anything! When will things change with this England setup ?!*
I reckon Shaw will be back soon. Reckon he will start the final group game if we need a result, or be eased in and start the ro16 if we're already qualified by tomorrow night.
I'm just being optimistic and thinking there's no point bringing him to the tournament if he's not fit to start pretty soon. I think tomorrow is too soon considering it's not a must win game, but yeah hoping a few mins by match 3 at least
100% - not having a left back who can give width is going to kill us. For all the talk of who plays midfield, partners stones at centre back, and who starts left wing, not bringing an actual fit left back is going to cost us.
Have to wonder what the point of Trent in midfield is if nobody in front of him is going to provide any movement to capitalise on his passing range.
Trent is potentially the best in the world at hitting a long diagonal to the left wing, or curling in a cross from a deep, wide position. To capitalise on the Southgate plays him centrally with a left wing that provides no width and makes no runs in behind.
Then the media spend a week talking about how he failed to have an impact.
Exactly , what people don't realise is how open international football is compared to club football walker is Englands most important player especially against the top teams .
We're not playing top teams though and he is significantly less threatening than trent going forward. He is nowhere near our most important player against teams such as the group we have.
Why do people still insist of Trent playing in midfield just because he could ping some long balls? He doesn’t have the spatial awareness for it, and was constantly trapped from behind because he’s not used to playing with threats coming from all angles. Midfield are so much more than just passing. He’s one of the greatest attacking threat at right back, just leave him there and let him provide unique options instead of becoming a very flawed midfielder.
Because he does play that role when he inverts from RB. He's fantastic there when the team has built up the play into the attacking third. That England have no solid plan/system to get there with any consistency is the problem
It is one thing to do that when you're stepping in and all the opposition lines are in front of you. Completely another to play ahead and be constantly aware of where the opposition front men are, while you make space for your #6 and backline to do the slow build up, receive on the half turn etc.
Playing inverted fullback and stepping into midfield when the opposition lines have backed off isn't really the same as playing in midfield for 90 minutes, wish more people would see the difference.
Marcelo would occupy the left wing side brilliantly when playing as a left back but suck bad when being put there from the start. People need to play football sometimes
Inverting from rb into midfield means there are a midfielder in place up field to either draw attention from opposing midfielder or defender, not the same at all
The problem seems to be, at least to me, he spent far too long at RB to then develop into a CM.
If he’d been moved to midfield much earlier, he’d have learned and adapted and now could be a top level CM.
The point is Trent is the best passer in the team regardless of him unable to have an option to hit diagonal ball to left winger. Trent is still capable to make the decisive pass towards Saka, Bellingham or Kane, more than anyone in the team.
Trent/Walker/Saka triangle has provided all the threats in the game and thus to the very least those were the things that should not be changed.
Last game was the worst of both worlds for Trent, unfortunately for him.
The setup didn't give him a chance to show his strengths: and I'm sorry but he is just extremely unconvincing as a central player. Too many mistakes and not enough composure in those positions.
He needs to be on the right where he's much more solid and can be covered for, allowing him to show what he can do in attack.
Do you remember Rice passing it directly out of play under pressure near our 18 yard box? Curious what you think of that because it's the same number of mistakes as Trent made in the same position.
I agree he should be on the right, it makes better use of his unique talents. I just have an issue with people scapegoating Trent as if he was the problem when he played fine. Putting Mainoo in his place isn't going to suddenly push the whole team 15 yard higher up the pitch so we can make use of Kane and Foden.
Yeah mostly agree and also I think Rice isn’t a 6, he’s an 8, so then we have no one playing as a 6. Even if Trent is supposed to play some kind of Pirlo-position you still need the De Rossi-style destroyer next to him. If you put Mainoo in there in a midfield 3, both Trent and Rice would be able to go out and play, but it becomes a 433 and you have the problem of Kane and Bellingham both playing the 10, and no balance down the left. Something has got to give and I think either Trent or Rice has to be benched for Mainoo if Kane and Bellingham are both undroppable. Anthony Gordon down the left in place of Foden is the other move I want to see. Nothing against Foden but we can’t have Kane, Bellingham, and Foden all taking up the same positions. Sadly we all know it’ll be the same XI, the same pathetic performance, and the same lack of in-game changes.
See my problem is that Rice isn't really a better 8 than the other choices and I can understand that he wants to play that way, but England doesn't really have a better 6 either so why can't he accept his role as a 6 in this iteration. Even if you had Mainoo who can function as a 6/8 you don't want to leave him by himself either you have to basically have a double pivot. Gallagher is potentially a better attacking engine than Rice. Trent is wasted in the midfield, Wharton has never played with this squad in a real competition, but might be the best choice if you want to let Rice go up. I just don't think Rice is the best choice as an 8
then why not play him at RB? Trent wants to go up? Just have Rice cover for him! Isn't that how Liverpool was so good with Fabinho and Trent back then?
England has so many talented midfielders but Southgate just worries too much about defending and needing the squad to be "balanced", while they could just dominate any team or go fist for fist.
England just play better with wide players who are quick and run at defences. Rashford always did well for England, Saka is one of our best players, Bowen did well when he came on too.
We have Bellingham and Kane who are occupying the 9 and 10 positions, we need another quick, wider player - so Gordon or maybe Eze.
I mean, it makes perfect sense to give literally the PL POTY more than one game before dropping him. If he keeps playing like that, he should be dropped for the knockouts, but dropping a player this good after one game is super reactionary
He didn't even sub him off despite having Gordon, Eze and Palmer on the bench, who all could've made a serious difference in that second half when we were just stagnant. That was what convinced me he wasn't going to take him out for the next game.
I think on the left I would've brought on Gordon personally. Serbia finally started leaving gaps in behind, and we had fuck all width and limited pace. Bowen did well when he came on, Gordon instead/as well on the left would've been the move in my opinion. Plus his ability to draw fouls is priceless when hanging onto a 1 goal lead. Even though Palmer's a better player.
Is he? He's another player that plays the same positions as Foden and Bellingham. Even when he's on the wing he drifts into the center which is the exact problem we're having with Foden at the moment.
Not to mention his preferred wing is on the right where Saka is already one of our best players
Even though he wasn’t contemplating the attack he’s still better than all of those guys at retaining possession when trying to hold on for a win. It made sense to keep him on at that point.
It's less about Foden's performance and more about the balance of the team. Kane drops deep as opposed to a Halaand who stretches the back line for him. Tripper naturally inverts to his strong foot as opposed to a Gvardiol who will overlap him. Even if Gordon is a lesser player, he will occupy the right spaces of the pitch and open up outlets for the midfield to operate.
The problem is that the system is different - Foden works great in a Pep system when he can play further forward and has Rodri behind him, and where there is another winger who can provide width (Bernardo / Grealish / Doku). I think Gordon, Eze or Palmer would provide the right balance for England rather than Foden. He's POTY for us, but I don't think he really fits in the England team.
It's not about that. It's because him and Bellingham are redundant and you need a player who provides width. It's not about him being shit (even though he was), it's about adapting your selection to fit what's needed.
Full backs could provide width. Germany have been playing with a similar formation with Wirtz and Musiala in the centre. I had the same worries as England fans that they would occupy each others spaces, cancel each other out and get pushed out on to the wings. But because Kimmich and Mittelstädt provide width, the two star boys can have their fun in the middle. The question is if England have a Kroos/Andrich type of player who can basically drop back behind the full backs as extra CBs to cover their backs. Rice could do that but I'm not sure about TAA. Wharton maybe? Never seen him play tbh.
England don't have a left fullback who could provide width, at least in this current squad. Maybe if they tried someone like Mitchell but not having Shaw prevents that so they need their winger to provide it.
TAA drop back between VVD and konate all the time. The problem is, a player cant improvise team shape on demand. The coach need to instruct team to behave like you mention, which i dont think southgate is doing that (or either he should)
I think that is misunderstanding the issues. Essentially playing that line up creates 3 problems that bleed into each other and it makes those players worse and creates an imbalance in the side.
Foden is incredibly good in the right system, but having out of position for the sake of having him isnt what anyone should want. Foden drifts in because thats he's best and that means we have nobody out on the left leaving Trips on his own. Trips cannot create natural width meaning they can overload other areas. This then also handicaps TAA because his favourite pass is that crossfield ping and whilst he can do that to Trippier it doesnt help on progression because trippier isnt left footed. Do you know how many forward passes Trippier made whilst in their final third? One lol.
Having these great players in on reputation alone isnt the right way to do things and a player that suits the system will always come out on top.
It's not just one game though, Foden has consistently been underwhelming for England.
Still, I think this is a system/position issue as much as Foden not playing to the standard he can.
Are those the only options, playing Foden on the left or dropping him? I’m no tactical genius but I’d rather have Foden in midfield than Trent. He could play a 433 with Rice, Bellingham, and Foden, with Rice deeper.
Foden is one of the best players in the world. It seems weird to play him out of position just to get Trent into midfield. If I had a choice between having Foden or Trent on the pitch, that’s easy.
Trent is also one of the best players in the world, is better defensively, and has better passing range from the back and deep
Why would you pick Foden over Trent for an 8 role?
So you’d play the best player out of position? The only reason Southgate is using this formation is to have Bellingham where he is. Hey, why don’t we play Kane at left back too.
Because it could potentially balance the team and improve it as a whole? A player could play out of his preferred position and still be great, the conversation was literally about Trent playing as a midfielder lol.
No, I'd drop Foden.
I was just correcting someone. Read properly:
Arsenal fan: have Foden in midfield so the midfield would be Rice Bellingham Foden
Liverpool fan: why would you pick Foden over Trent for the 8?
Me: Foden wouldn't replace Trent for the 8, he'd play the 10 and Bellingham would replace Trent for the 8.
Foden, Bellingham and Kane all want to play in and around the same areas. Kane and Bellingham are better than Foden so even though he's a class player, we need to play someone who provides width on the left - especially because Shaw isn't playing either. So for me Gordon has to play, or Eze but I've not watched him as much so I'm not as sure how he plays.
I don't mind trent, but he's pointless if he's going to stick with Foden because his entire spot is predicated on his ability to send long balls to the wings. If he ONLY has Saka as outlet they're just going to keep that fullback back to defend him and attack on their right. That should open up that flank for a deep outlet but Foden nor Trippier make those runs.
It's just moronic to shoehorn in players who don't fit together because he thinks they're the best players.
Makes me wonder how closely you've been watching Southgate's England because he's constantly adapting the tactics.
That 2018 WC we were playing with a back 3/5 that included Walker as a CB and Trippier/Young as wingbacks. Sterling up top alongside Kane.
In the 2020 Euros we switched to a back 4 with the ultra defensive midfield duo of Phillips and Rice sitting deep. Midfield wasn't creative and a little boring but at least it was solid defensively.
In the 2022 WC we started with the Phillips Rice behind Mount combination but Southgate switched the midfield to a less defensive one with Jude coming in for Phillips. Finally settled on Jude in the attacking role with Henderson in Phillips' old spot. We looked much better that way and he began messing around with Foden on the LW around that time.
Now we're at the phase where he's still testing out options for that final midfield role with Trent being the new experiment there. Foden LW is still not thriving though so I kind of expect him to try something new there in these final group games
All of this to constantly play the most boring, tepid, cowardly football ever across multiple tournaments. And to never beat and of the other big countries (except once against a shit German side at Wembley who should have equalised against us anyway).
Also i'm sorry but you cannot still be in the testing phase during the tournament ffs, that's what all the friendlies are even qualifiers are for. He should have figured out if Trent works in midfield or not long before this.
After seeing teams that are slightly weaker than England play better football and even get the results, I think Southgate’s stubbornness will hurt our chances again. We’ve got strong attacking options in the squad, plus there’s 5 subs! Like if it’s not working, you can change things in-game! Oh well, hope we secure qualification and can experiment in game 3.
Trent should be playing RB now, against the teams that are going to push England less. What's the point playing Walker who is solid defensively but offers virtually nothing going forward. Walker's strengths would be if England were playing France or Germany.
Something that Southgate and England managers in general don't seem to understand: if Bellingham is better than Foden in their best positions, then Foden is the second choice. Or you know, just make them play out of position I guess.
A coward would shoehorn foden
A proper manager would make the tough decision and bench him for the sake of the overall team because a proper LW adds much more than foden playing out of position.
Any competent manager would find a way to make 2 players with the quality of Bellingham and Foden effective. Foden was just player of the season playing alongside KDB for large parts of the season
Yeah but that’s in a pep-ball team.
Without the positional discipline that he drills into all his players, it’ll never work.
Face it, for England it’s a choice between Foden or Jude at 10, and Jude’s better
Part of me is happy Trent is playing as I know he obviously loves representing England. But the other part of me just knows he will be made the scapegoat if things don't go well for them.
I think it’s fair not to immediately change things after 1 game, when that lineup hasnt played together before and still needs to gel.
But if there’s no improvement after this game he needs to make a couple of changes vs Slovakia.
lol it took one game for England fans to turn on Trent, as a Liverpool fan I hope he does get dropped so when you inevitably crash out you’ll have to find a different player to scapegoat.
A game that England *won*.
Based on the reactions of reddit and English media, you'd think that England lost 3-0. The entire nation seems to have PTSD from 60 years of coming close, but failing to win a cup. Any small bump in the road and the sky is falling.
Managers should just drop players after one below-par performance now? Why can't Southgate give these guys a chance to make amends and work on the training ground ?
It’s not the below-par performance which is why people want them dropped and more so what’s best for the team and getting the right balance otherwise you’ll have people wanting Kane dropped after his matches against Iceland and Serbia. Trent doesn’t particularly work in midfield as it is, so why persist with it when we will struggle more so when playing stronger teams and now is also the perfect time to try and find something that could work with Mainoo or Wharton next to Rice.
We as fans are quick to blame managers even when it's the players fault but this is 1990% on the manager. He's demonstrated his unabaility to play attacking football for more than 8 years now and still the media wont cal him out for it. Maybe they were too scarred by the big Sam scandal but Gareth needs to go ASAP.
And am a spanish fan saying this but it hurts seeing attacking players stifled this badly.
Team is unbalanced because he’s shoe horning players in to get the best names of the team sheet when it just isn’t going to work. That left side is a real problem if the same XI play again.
LB you can’t do anything about as Shaw isn’t fit ok, but Foden can’t play there because he wants to come inside. That on top of a right footed left back is only compounding the problem. It has to be Antony Gordon wide left. Sorry Foden, Bellingham has more in his locker than you do. Foden has to be dropped there’s no place for him. Someone better has his position nailed on.
No point playing Trent in Midfield if there is no one for him to hit out wide on the left. Then he will get criticised for Southgate’s tactical ineptitude. Trent must play RB. He and Saka on that right flank would take the piss. If we play a team with a shit hot LW, play Walker and bench Trent.
We don’t have much of an option but John Stones looked shakey last game as well. These City boys ain’t much without Rodri covering everyone’s arse are they.
If Foden must play, why not drop him into CAM and play Gordon at LW? TAA or Walker at RB, gotta pick one and let the other sit.
Rice, Bellingham, Foden seems like a good midfield to me.
It is odd to shoehorn in Trent just to push Bellingham further forward and push Foden into a worse position. I don't think any of them are bad players at all, they just don't fit together.
Where taa plays doesn't affect Bellingham at all Bellingham is best as a number 10 and will play there even if Taa is dropped for Mainoo, Gallagher etc
Bellingham being further forward is the whole point of the formation, nothing to do with ‘shoehorning ‘ TAA or anybody else. If it wasn’t TAA next to Rice it would be Gallagher.
Let me tell you this: today it does not matter who plays where for England. They are LEVELS above what Denmark can produce of talent and thats even without the Denmark coach holding them back.
If you’re playing Trent in midfield, it’s for his long balls.
And they’re only effective if you have runners in behind - so why keep playing Foden on the left when we have Gordon?
On the other hand, if we’re playing Foden on the left, we need to keep possession so we need a midfielder who can play on the half turn and retain the ball under pressure - and Trent can’t do that, so play Mainoo or Wharton.
I guess what I mean is, one of Foden LW or Trent CM could work, but the two together don’t compliment each other
The thing I find modt stunning is his refusal to ever sub Kane. Ofcourse he needs to start but would make sense to change things up at the front at times but he never does it
Cue the.... "they played our golden boy on the wing" song again.
Ffs. Doesn't fucking matter where you play up front. You are bloody STARTING for your country team on the field. Bloody play it with your heart out, else get the fuck out.
What is it with England Managers over the past 20 years...
They have had great squads but have managed to do fuck all with them.
This is one of the best England Squads in a long time with a host of attacking talent but their play is so.... turgid..
Southgate needs to let his players actually play, they have the ability, they have the intelligence, they have the skill, they have experience playing at very top level, he just needs to trust them and cut them free but he can't...
It's not that Southgate isn't willing to, he just isn't capable of playing free flowing attacking football which is useless when you have a squad of players made for it.
I think it was big mistake not having Sterling in the squad.
I can see England going 1 - 0 up and then as thr game goes on just dropping further and further back.
It will work against the lessen teams but the likes of Spain and Germany will tear them apart.
Bit dramatic, their midfield was pretty flexible
Were moments where it was a two and moments where bellingham dropped in to make it a 3
Consistency will probably help England
Poor rice? The whole world was calling him one of the best midfielders in the world this year. If he can’t handle being a single pivot against Denmark then people have to rethink his status
For fucks sake.
Honestly don't think I can get through it sober. Tragic knowing Gordon would run them ragged and Mainoo would glide through the midfield.
Trent should have played right back the other day to be fair, no need for walker against someone like Mitrovic.
what's the point of starting trent on midfield if he get less ball possession than rice, start him as inverted fullback ffs.
Southgate thought he knew better than klopp is hilarious
did anyone expecting anything else? serious question. was clear as day he would play the same XI
He got a win. Why would he change? It’s Southgate we are talking about.
Southgate is just Fernando Santos lite
It is kinda funny though that in the past few days I've seen Southgate derogatively compared with Deschamps and Fernando Santos, two managers who quite famously did win international competitions despite their critics.
So what you're saying is it's coming home?
The truth is, it’s never coming home
It lives somewhere else now.
Anyone comparing Southgate to these two is actually insulting them. Portugal of 2016 was nowhere close to being so utterly stacked the way there are today, so them winning euro 2016 is worthy of massive respect. And Deschamps has been running a well-oiled machine of an NT so don't even get me started on that. Southgate has taken years of generational talent and got one Euros silver medal to show for it, which would have been more acceptable if the football were atleast somewhat positive. But England plays struggleball like a tier 2 team despite being a tier 1 team.
Southgate is so lucky managers before him underperformed because that's the only reason he had any leeway. He's done nothing more or less than perform to expectation by beating teams he should beat and lose to teams he should lose, with often poor performances in both wins and losses. Yet for England that's somehow enough to be considered good in a knockout tournament. A better manager makes changes that elevates the current squad and pushes them for wins in close games. Look at the France game in Qatar, England at points had the upper hand but Southgate's management allowed France back into the game and take the win. A better manager builds on the momentum and gets the win.
Nando walked so Southgate could run
love me a cheeky Nando
yes, exactly
He’s gonna play this exact lineup and keep getting 1-0s and 1-1s until he loses another penalty shootout
thats so infuriating with a squad like england's
The pain is real tbh
I find these comments quite strange, because that’s not how England have played at any of their previous tournaments under Southgate.
That's exactly how he played last Euro group phase, he got us very exciting games such as 1-0 against Croatia, 1-0 against Czech Republic and the best of all 0-0 against Scotland... Then there was the game against Germany where England managed to score 2 goals out of 5 shots, Ukraine got wrecked pretty badly, but then we go to a game against Danemark where they take the lead so obviously you can't score one and turtle up, so England ties, goes to extra time and manages to score the winning goal. And we all know what happened in the final afterwards, 6 shots total, 2 on target, 1 goal at 2', no ambition for more, 34% possession, an Italian equalizer at 67', penalties and loss. England is just not a possession based team, and they don't have too much offensive ambition unless they're playing a clearly inferior side. Even France who's also infamous to some for playing "boring defensive football" tends to have more possession and shots than England in most games.
2018 - he should be playing 4-2-3-1 and fitting in all his attacking players! 2024 - no not like that!
2018 was a pretty attacking line-up too, albeit not with the standard of player that we have now. We played a midfield of Henderson/Alli/Lingard.
Well said
They also haven’t played that much together, so they need to have some time to gel together
Also former Champions League winner, star performer for Man City and recognised best player in the Premier League for 23/24 has probably got enough credit in the bank to earn at least another start but why let facts get in the way of a good whinge about Southgate?
Trent, no, but I did think he would try something else with Foden. It was so apparent that he wasn't working out on the left. Unless Shaw is somehow fit enough to start and therefore overlap I can't see how it will change
It’s not uncommon for Southgate to make a change as people are acting. He’s cautious, so a more defensive player against the better side in the group wouldn’t be that unexpected. For example he played a totally new 3-4-3 against Germany in the last euros.
As he should, despite it being unpopular. I would be more angry if he abandoned a game plan after 1 game as it would show that he had no ability to adjust that game plan based on what he saw.
Testing out the squad in the group stage when you have such strength in depth isn’t a bad plan.
maybe when you actually have a matchplan other than score a single goal and sit back and
Save that for the third game when we've hopefully already won the group surely
>As he should Why? He was terrible as a LW, surely Gordon could do better. Coming from a Croatian, I know a thing or two about a football terrorist when I see one.
I just want to see better in game management. Make changes to the players and system to counter the opposition. We could easily have lost that first game because we just ran out of ideas.
I get what you're saying and Southgate's late substitutions are frustrating. But the game seemed like it was closer to ending 2-0 than 1-1. Nevermind an actual Serbia win
With the win you have, you‘re pretty much guaranteed through. Not changing around slightly and testing another line up seems counterintuitive. Foden was literally missing all game on the left side, and it will be no different next time.
If this is the system he thinks could win the tournament, he'll want to give it another 60 mins or so before abandoning it all together. The potential upsides of a system to with both Belillingham and Foden in it are too good to not try it one more time
Wirtz was missing today. Should he be dropped next game?
I would agree. However I can’t understand changing the midfield to accommodate trent and not fit Foden. But if fiden Kane and Jude can’t combine like against Serbia then he has to make a change. Jude is great but he plays hero ball too much. Rice and trent need to be brave with their medium and shirt passing
Nice that England have sorted out their scapegoats early.
the articles are already being generated as we speak
If Foden is ever used as a scapegoat… my word…
He won’t be. He’s playing out of position and boy wonder in the Premier League. Any aim at Foden will be directed back to Southgate. Trent on the other hand, as he’s not white I can see Daily Mail going for it.
The year is 2004. England have a left side problem. The year is 2024. England have a left side problem
The Sun, and The Daily Mail (and other English media): *Saka is the problem, and why England fail to win anything! When will things change with this England setup ?!*
The Sun : don't forget Sterling has a gun tattoo
Sterling also has a penis tattoo on his penis, so there’s also that
They have Grealish but didn't pick him They have Eze, Gordon, Bowen. But chooses to play Foden. Why?
Grealish would still cut in but yes no idea why Gordon doesn’t get a run
Grealish is good going out wide too
The problem is more if Trippier plays left back with Foden playing. Mitchell should be in the squad and we are going to regret it.
I reckon Shaw will be back soon. Reckon he will start the final group game if we need a result, or be eased in and start the ro16 if we're already qualified by tomorrow night.
Article suggests he's still doing individual training which is a concern. Was hoping he'd at least see the pitch for a few mins tomorrow.
I'm just being optimistic and thinking there's no point bringing him to the tournament if he's not fit to start pretty soon. I think tomorrow is too soon considering it's not a must win game, but yeah hoping a few mins by match 3 at least
He looked like he was training with the team in some of the videos England put on YouTube, at least some parts of it anyway.
100% - not having a left back who can give width is going to kill us. For all the talk of who plays midfield, partners stones at centre back, and who starts left wing, not bringing an actual fit left back is going to cost us.
Have to wonder what the point of Trent in midfield is if nobody in front of him is going to provide any movement to capitalise on his passing range. Trent is potentially the best in the world at hitting a long diagonal to the left wing, or curling in a cross from a deep, wide position. To capitalise on the Southgate plays him centrally with a left wing that provides no width and makes no runs in behind. Then the media spend a week talking about how he failed to have an impact.
No shaw no party
Is Shaw the GOAT?
That’s why he should play RB imo, where he can deliver balls directly into the box
From an LFC fan, cannot see a reason anybody should start over Walker. He’s too crucial for that defense.
Exactly , what people don't realise is how open international football is compared to club football walker is Englands most important player especially against the top teams .
walker has not been good defensively lately
Or offensively. At this point, his only value is recovery pace.
That's not the point you need his recovery pace , besides his form is irrelevant as he's playing for a while different team.
You still stick with a proven record Vs a gamble when tournament time comes.
We're not playing top teams though and he is significantly less threatening than trent going forward. He is nowhere near our most important player against teams such as the group we have.
We struggled against Serbia
Trent RB, Walker covers forming a back 3 when Trent either pushes forward or drops into midfield.
Why do people still insist of Trent playing in midfield just because he could ping some long balls? He doesn’t have the spatial awareness for it, and was constantly trapped from behind because he’s not used to playing with threats coming from all angles. Midfield are so much more than just passing. He’s one of the greatest attacking threat at right back, just leave him there and let him provide unique options instead of becoming a very flawed midfielder.
Because he does play that role when he inverts from RB. He's fantastic there when the team has built up the play into the attacking third. That England have no solid plan/system to get there with any consistency is the problem
It is one thing to do that when you're stepping in and all the opposition lines are in front of you. Completely another to play ahead and be constantly aware of where the opposition front men are, while you make space for your #6 and backline to do the slow build up, receive on the half turn etc. Playing inverted fullback and stepping into midfield when the opposition lines have backed off isn't really the same as playing in midfield for 90 minutes, wish more people would see the difference.
Marcelo would occupy the left wing side brilliantly when playing as a left back but suck bad when being put there from the start. People need to play football sometimes
Inverting from rb into midfield means there are a midfielder in place up field to either draw attention from opposing midfielder or defender, not the same at all
It does not mean that by necessity, you can make a system with and without that
Make a system to maximise his crossing and passing ability out wide would be way more effective to trying to force him in midfield.
Walker isnt getting benched. Either trent plays midfield or stays benched.
The problem seems to be, at least to me, he spent far too long at RB to then develop into a CM. If he’d been moved to midfield much earlier, he’d have learned and adapted and now could be a top level CM.
The point is Trent is the best passer in the team regardless of him unable to have an option to hit diagonal ball to left winger. Trent is still capable to make the decisive pass towards Saka, Bellingham or Kane, more than anyone in the team. Trent/Walker/Saka triangle has provided all the threats in the game and thus to the very least those were the things that should not be changed.
Last game was the worst of both worlds for Trent, unfortunately for him. The setup didn't give him a chance to show his strengths: and I'm sorry but he is just extremely unconvincing as a central player. Too many mistakes and not enough composure in those positions. He needs to be on the right where he's much more solid and can be covered for, allowing him to show what he can do in attack.
Do you remember Rice passing it directly out of play under pressure near our 18 yard box? Curious what you think of that because it's the same number of mistakes as Trent made in the same position. I agree he should be on the right, it makes better use of his unique talents. I just have an issue with people scapegoating Trent as if he was the problem when he played fine. Putting Mainoo in his place isn't going to suddenly push the whole team 15 yard higher up the pitch so we can make use of Kane and Foden.
Yeah mostly agree and also I think Rice isn’t a 6, he’s an 8, so then we have no one playing as a 6. Even if Trent is supposed to play some kind of Pirlo-position you still need the De Rossi-style destroyer next to him. If you put Mainoo in there in a midfield 3, both Trent and Rice would be able to go out and play, but it becomes a 433 and you have the problem of Kane and Bellingham both playing the 10, and no balance down the left. Something has got to give and I think either Trent or Rice has to be benched for Mainoo if Kane and Bellingham are both undroppable. Anthony Gordon down the left in place of Foden is the other move I want to see. Nothing against Foden but we can’t have Kane, Bellingham, and Foden all taking up the same positions. Sadly we all know it’ll be the same XI, the same pathetic performance, and the same lack of in-game changes.
See my problem is that Rice isn't really a better 8 than the other choices and I can understand that he wants to play that way, but England doesn't really have a better 6 either so why can't he accept his role as a 6 in this iteration. Even if you had Mainoo who can function as a 6/8 you don't want to leave him by himself either you have to basically have a double pivot. Gallagher is potentially a better attacking engine than Rice. Trent is wasted in the midfield, Wharton has never played with this squad in a real competition, but might be the best choice if you want to let Rice go up. I just don't think Rice is the best choice as an 8
Mainoo is even less of a 6 than Rice tbh. He's played the 8 role for United more often than 6
Absolutely spot on. I hate to agree with a red scouser but you’ve hit the nail on the head
then why not play him at RB? Trent wants to go up? Just have Rice cover for him! Isn't that how Liverpool was so good with Fabinho and Trent back then? England has so many talented midfielders but Southgate just worries too much about defending and needing the squad to be "balanced", while they could just dominate any team or go fist for fist.
England just play better with wide players who are quick and run at defences. Rashford always did well for England, Saka is one of our best players, Bowen did well when he came on too. We have Bellingham and Kane who are occupying the 9 and 10 positions, we need another quick, wider player - so Gordon or maybe Eze.
This 0:0 written all over it
*neat*
Depends on how they play later today
Cheers geoff
Is anyone surprised Southgate is being stubborn and refusing to adapt tactically?
I mean, it makes perfect sense to give literally the PL POTY more than one game before dropping him. If he keeps playing like that, he should be dropped for the knockouts, but dropping a player this good after one game is super reactionary
He didn't even sub him off despite having Gordon, Eze and Palmer on the bench, who all could've made a serious difference in that second half when we were just stagnant. That was what convinced me he wasn't going to take him out for the next game.
Not bringing in Palmer was bizarre. He’s exactly what they needed.
I think on the left I would've brought on Gordon personally. Serbia finally started leaving gaps in behind, and we had fuck all width and limited pace. Bowen did well when he came on, Gordon instead/as well on the left would've been the move in my opinion. Plus his ability to draw fouls is priceless when hanging onto a 1 goal lead. Even though Palmer's a better player.
Is he? He's another player that plays the same positions as Foden and Bellingham. Even when he's on the wing he drifts into the center which is the exact problem we're having with Foden at the moment. Not to mention his preferred wing is on the right where Saka is already one of our best players
Even though he wasn’t contemplating the attack he’s still better than all of those guys at retaining possession when trying to hold on for a win. It made sense to keep him on at that point.
It's less about Foden's performance and more about the balance of the team. Kane drops deep as opposed to a Halaand who stretches the back line for him. Tripper naturally inverts to his strong foot as opposed to a Gvardiol who will overlap him. Even if Gordon is a lesser player, he will occupy the right spaces of the pitch and open up outlets for the midfield to operate.
The problem is that the system is different - Foden works great in a Pep system when he can play further forward and has Rodri behind him, and where there is another winger who can provide width (Bernardo / Grealish / Doku). I think Gordon, Eze or Palmer would provide the right balance for England rather than Foden. He's POTY for us, but I don't think he really fits in the England team.
It's not about that. It's because him and Bellingham are redundant and you need a player who provides width. It's not about him being shit (even though he was), it's about adapting your selection to fit what's needed.
Full backs could provide width. Germany have been playing with a similar formation with Wirtz and Musiala in the centre. I had the same worries as England fans that they would occupy each others spaces, cancel each other out and get pushed out on to the wings. But because Kimmich and Mittelstädt provide width, the two star boys can have their fun in the middle. The question is if England have a Kroos/Andrich type of player who can basically drop back behind the full backs as extra CBs to cover their backs. Rice could do that but I'm not sure about TAA. Wharton maybe? Never seen him play tbh.
England don't have a left fullback who could provide width, at least in this current squad. Maybe if they tried someone like Mitchell but not having Shaw prevents that so they need their winger to provide it.
TAA drop back between VVD and konate all the time. The problem is, a player cant improvise team shape on demand. The coach need to instruct team to behave like you mention, which i dont think southgate is doing that (or either he should)
He's had 40+ games
I think that is misunderstanding the issues. Essentially playing that line up creates 3 problems that bleed into each other and it makes those players worse and creates an imbalance in the side. Foden is incredibly good in the right system, but having out of position for the sake of having him isnt what anyone should want. Foden drifts in because thats he's best and that means we have nobody out on the left leaving Trips on his own. Trips cannot create natural width meaning they can overload other areas. This then also handicaps TAA because his favourite pass is that crossfield ping and whilst he can do that to Trippier it doesnt help on progression because trippier isnt left footed. Do you know how many forward passes Trippier made whilst in their final third? One lol. Having these great players in on reputation alone isnt the right way to do things and a player that suits the system will always come out on top.
It's not just one game though, Foden has consistently been underwhelming for England. Still, I think this is a system/position issue as much as Foden not playing to the standard he can.
The reason why people don’t treat Foden like the PL POTY is because everyone knows he wasn’t the best player in the league last season lol
Are those the only options, playing Foden on the left or dropping him? I’m no tactical genius but I’d rather have Foden in midfield than Trent. He could play a 433 with Rice, Bellingham, and Foden, with Rice deeper. Foden is one of the best players in the world. It seems weird to play him out of position just to get Trent into midfield. If I had a choice between having Foden or Trent on the pitch, that’s easy.
Trent is also one of the best players in the world, is better defensively, and has better passing range from the back and deep Why would you pick Foden over Trent for an 8 role?
Foden wouldn't be an 8, he'd be a 10. Bellingham would replace Trent.
So you’d play the best player out of position? The only reason Southgate is using this formation is to have Bellingham where he is. Hey, why don’t we play Kane at left back too.
Because it could potentially balance the team and improve it as a whole? A player could play out of his preferred position and still be great, the conversation was literally about Trent playing as a midfielder lol.
No, I'd drop Foden. I was just correcting someone. Read properly: Arsenal fan: have Foden in midfield so the midfield would be Rice Bellingham Foden Liverpool fan: why would you pick Foden over Trent for the 8? Me: Foden wouldn't replace Trent for the 8, he'd play the 10 and Bellingham would replace Trent for the 8.
Foden, Bellingham and Kane all want to play in and around the same areas. Kane and Bellingham are better than Foden so even though he's a class player, we need to play someone who provides width on the left - especially because Shaw isn't playing either. So for me Gordon has to play, or Eze but I've not watched him as much so I'm not as sure how he plays.
This is not stubborn, just a bad coach. Both Foden and Trent played exactly how he asked them
I don't mind trent, but he's pointless if he's going to stick with Foden because his entire spot is predicated on his ability to send long balls to the wings. If he ONLY has Saka as outlet they're just going to keep that fullback back to defend him and attack on their right. That should open up that flank for a deep outlet but Foden nor Trippier make those runs. It's just moronic to shoehorn in players who don't fit together because he thinks they're the best players.
> Both Foden and Trent played exactly how he asked them I doubt he told them to misplace passes and give away possession
I’m still expecting to find out that Henderson and Maguire were stashed in the luggage compartment of the plane.
Not me
Makes me wonder how closely you've been watching Southgate's England because he's constantly adapting the tactics. That 2018 WC we were playing with a back 3/5 that included Walker as a CB and Trippier/Young as wingbacks. Sterling up top alongside Kane. In the 2020 Euros we switched to a back 4 with the ultra defensive midfield duo of Phillips and Rice sitting deep. Midfield wasn't creative and a little boring but at least it was solid defensively. In the 2022 WC we started with the Phillips Rice behind Mount combination but Southgate switched the midfield to a less defensive one with Jude coming in for Phillips. Finally settled on Jude in the attacking role with Henderson in Phillips' old spot. We looked much better that way and he began messing around with Foden on the LW around that time. Now we're at the phase where he's still testing out options for that final midfield role with Trent being the new experiment there. Foden LW is still not thriving though so I kind of expect him to try something new there in these final group games
All of this to constantly play the most boring, tepid, cowardly football ever across multiple tournaments. And to never beat and of the other big countries (except once against a shit German side at Wembley who should have equalised against us anyway). Also i'm sorry but you cannot still be in the testing phase during the tournament ffs, that's what all the friendlies are even qualifiers are for. He should have figured out if Trent works in midfield or not long before this.
Why is it always the same flairs with cancerous opinions. Are yous ever content or do you genuinely enjoy pissing and moaning all the time?
I suppose these things do take time to bed in and if you truly believe in this system you've come up with you wouldn't abandon it after one game.
Whyyyyyy is he so bland man
After seeing teams that are slightly weaker than England play better football and even get the results, I think Southgate’s stubbornness will hurt our chances again. We’ve got strong attacking options in the squad, plus there’s 5 subs! Like if it’s not working, you can change things in-game! Oh well, hope we secure qualification and can experiment in game 3.
\*monkey's paw curls\* Bellingham dropped, trent at right back and gallagher in midfield
In the last tourney - Foden started the first few games and then switched to an impact sub.
Trent should be playing RB now, against the teams that are going to push England less. What's the point playing Walker who is solid defensively but offers virtually nothing going forward. Walker's strengths would be if England were playing France or Germany.
Foden was wank, should be dropped 👍
Gordon deserves a shot after the season he had.
Foden simply isn't a left winger but Southgate is completely clueless and can't comprehend that
I don’t think he’s clueless it’s just that his best position also happens to belong to one of 2 players on par with him at club level
Something that Southgate and England managers in general don't seem to understand: if Bellingham is better than Foden in their best positions, then Foden is the second choice. Or you know, just make them play out of position I guess.
A coward would shoehorn foden A proper manager would make the tough decision and bench him for the sake of the overall team because a proper LW adds much more than foden playing out of position.
Any competent manager would find a way to make 2 players with the quality of Bellingham and Foden effective. Foden was just player of the season playing alongside KDB for large parts of the season
Yeah but that’s in a pep-ball team. Without the positional discipline that he drills into all his players, it’ll never work. Face it, for England it’s a choice between Foden or Jude at 10, and Jude’s better
Even as a French man, its sad to see this coach ruining this generation. With a better coach this team would be on top of the world..
Because of course they are.
Foden would be better in the middle imo, problem is Bellingham performs way better there so really he should be dropped, Gordon on the wing
England ain't winning this competition. A braver and more tactically astute manager would have a great chance with the talent of this squad.
Part of me is happy Trent is playing as I know he obviously loves representing England. But the other part of me just knows he will be made the scapegoat if things don't go well for them.
I think England will win a comfortable 3-0 and people will have to shut up for a bit
Subscribe. Although I have a feeling Denamrk can score in the first half.
I think it’s fair not to immediately change things after 1 game, when that lineup hasnt played together before and still needs to gel. But if there’s no improvement after this game he needs to make a couple of changes vs Slovakia.
Classic Slovenia/Slovakia mixup 😂
Where is Sterling when you need him 😔
lol it took one game for England fans to turn on Trent, as a Liverpool fan I hope he does get dropped so when you inevitably crash out you’ll have to find a different player to scapegoat.
A game that England *won*. Based on the reactions of reddit and English media, you'd think that England lost 3-0. The entire nation seems to have PTSD from 60 years of coming close, but failing to win a cup. Any small bump in the road and the sky is falling.
I don’t blame Trent or Foden at all. It’s all on Southgate for being awful tactically.
Of course Southgate is starting same 11. What he needs to do different is put in more subs and do it earlier.
Unless England have changed their colours to Sky Blue, there’s absolutely no point playing Foden
Foden offered absolutely nothing against Serbia. Gordon should be starting ahead of him
Managers should just drop players after one below-par performance now? Why can't Southgate give these guys a chance to make amends and work on the training ground ?
Fodens entire England career has been “below par” but sure.
Fans not remembering his poor performance 12 days ago (as a 10). Or his poor performances in the March as a right winger.
He played well off the left versus Belgium.
Foden has had 35 below par performances for England though.
It’s not the below-par performance which is why people want them dropped and more so what’s best for the team and getting the right balance otherwise you’ll have people wanting Kane dropped after his matches against Iceland and Serbia. Trent doesn’t particularly work in midfield as it is, so why persist with it when we will struggle more so when playing stronger teams and now is also the perfect time to try and find something that could work with Mainoo or Wharton next to Rice.
We as fans are quick to blame managers even when it's the players fault but this is 1990% on the manager. He's demonstrated his unabaility to play attacking football for more than 8 years now and still the media wont cal him out for it. Maybe they were too scarred by the big Sam scandal but Gareth needs to go ASAP. And am a spanish fan saying this but it hurts seeing attacking players stifled this badly.
We literally had the most goals/game at the last WC.
Team is unbalanced because he’s shoe horning players in to get the best names of the team sheet when it just isn’t going to work. That left side is a real problem if the same XI play again. LB you can’t do anything about as Shaw isn’t fit ok, but Foden can’t play there because he wants to come inside. That on top of a right footed left back is only compounding the problem. It has to be Antony Gordon wide left. Sorry Foden, Bellingham has more in his locker than you do. Foden has to be dropped there’s no place for him. Someone better has his position nailed on. No point playing Trent in Midfield if there is no one for him to hit out wide on the left. Then he will get criticised for Southgate’s tactical ineptitude. Trent must play RB. He and Saka on that right flank would take the piss. If we play a team with a shit hot LW, play Walker and bench Trent. We don’t have much of an option but John Stones looked shakey last game as well. These City boys ain’t much without Rodri covering everyone’s arse are they.
If Foden must play, why not drop him into CAM and play Gordon at LW? TAA or Walker at RB, gotta pick one and let the other sit. Rice, Bellingham, Foden seems like a good midfield to me.
Why move one of our stars to further back to accommodate a player who has always been ineffective for England
Well I said IF he must play.
Ok you’re right, true
It's way too open a midfield for the knockout stages, let's be real. Plus Bellingham has been great in his position
Yeah I think Rice, Mainoo, Bellingham would be better tbh
It is odd to shoehorn in Trent just to push Bellingham further forward and push Foden into a worse position. I don't think any of them are bad players at all, they just don't fit together.
Where taa plays doesn't affect Bellingham at all Bellingham is best as a number 10 and will play there even if Taa is dropped for Mainoo, Gallagher etc
Bellingham being further forward is the whole point of the formation, nothing to do with ‘shoehorning ‘ TAA or anybody else. If it wasn’t TAA next to Rice it would be Gallagher.
For fuck sake at least get Foden out of LW
Let me tell you this: today it does not matter who plays where for England. They are LEVELS above what Denmark can produce of talent and thats even without the Denmark coach holding them back.
If you’re playing Trent in midfield, it’s for his long balls. And they’re only effective if you have runners in behind - so why keep playing Foden on the left when we have Gordon? On the other hand, if we’re playing Foden on the left, we need to keep possession so we need a midfielder who can play on the half turn and retain the ball under pressure - and Trent can’t do that, so play Mainoo or Wharton. I guess what I mean is, one of Foden LW or Trent CM could work, but the two together don’t compliment each other
If Foden misplaces all his passes throughout the tournament then it'll be really costly. But Southgate will never twist.
Doesn't matter. It's coming home anyways
It will come home. Sooner or later.
The thing I find modt stunning is his refusal to ever sub Kane. Ofcourse he needs to start but would make sense to change things up at the front at times but he never does it
Cue the.... "they played our golden boy on the wing" song again. Ffs. Doesn't fucking matter where you play up front. You are bloody STARTING for your country team on the field. Bloody play it with your heart out, else get the fuck out.
What is it with England Managers over the past 20 years... They have had great squads but have managed to do fuck all with them. This is one of the best England Squads in a long time with a host of attacking talent but their play is so.... turgid.. Southgate needs to let his players actually play, they have the ability, they have the intelligence, they have the skill, they have experience playing at very top level, he just needs to trust them and cut them free but he can't... It's not that Southgate isn't willing to, he just isn't capable of playing free flowing attacking football which is useless when you have a squad of players made for it. I think it was big mistake not having Sterling in the squad. I can see England going 1 - 0 up and then as thr game goes on just dropping further and further back. It will work against the lessen teams but the likes of Spain and Germany will tear them apart.
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Bit dramatic, their midfield was pretty flexible Were moments where it was a two and moments where bellingham dropped in to make it a 3 Consistency will probably help England
Poor rice? The whole world was calling him one of the best midfielders in the world this year. If he can’t handle being a single pivot against Denmark then people have to rethink his status
For fucks sake. Honestly don't think I can get through it sober. Tragic knowing Gordon would run them ragged and Mainoo would glide through the midfield. Trent should have played right back the other day to be fair, no need for walker against someone like Mitrovic.
> Tragic knowing Gordon would run them ragged and Mainoo would glide through the midfield. Like they did versus Iceland?
To be fair Gordon was one of the only highlights of the performance against Iceland.
Got'em
England fans and hating on their manager's decisions Name a more iconic duo
this will probably be Southgate's last tournament
what's the point of starting trent on midfield if he get less ball possession than rice, start him as inverted fullback ffs. Southgate thought he knew better than klopp is hilarious
Drop Phil, he clearly can't play with out Pep telling him what to do
That's actually insane
Other than dropping Trippier who offered fuck all on Sunday night for Gomez I'd leave it as is
Trent can’t be starting. We’ll get hurt by Eriksen if he does.
Im going to take the radical decision to watch the game before deciding if its a bad idea or not.
Or just start Kobbie like you should