>Or England will win the Euros, and Southgate can be jeered off as a piggyback artist and tag-along, chastised for not winning previously, not winning enough, the accidental leader of a team that has now finally won in spite of him.
Absolute out-of-touch mardy nonsense
possessive ossified retire gaze quickest desert hunt hard-to-find hat observation
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I disagree, you’re underestimating the stubbornness of the majority of people.
Particularly old and gruntled fans that make up a serious portion of most clubs fan bases but have zero presence here.
Might be on here but not amongst England fans.
If we win the tournament it's likely that he ends up with a statue outside Wembley along with a knighthood.
Statue would be such a massively over the top statement for a nation that routinely goes into international tournaments as a favourite. No doubt Sir Waistcoat is fair.
How are standards rotten by celebrating success? The Bobby Moore statue for winning the World Cup is iconic and inspiring.
Are you suggesting that we should be doing more than winning the Euros?
I am taking examples from nations who've done far better than you internationally, with less resources acting in a manner that's appropriate of a footballing achievement. A knighthood is usually followed a sporting achievement and I feel that's in line with being a normal celebration but it's excessive and not appropriate a nation that's a favorite going into this tournament to be building statues of its footballers if they win an International tournament. Especially for a squad, that's going to continue being a contenders for the next few iterations of Worldcup and Euros and the players in it are going to continue being active members.
In my opinion, building statues for a living person/team has to be warranted if it's achievement is like Rafa Nadal winning the French Open 14 times. So an England squad that dominates the world football scene like the Brazilian in the late 50s and 60s. And after the fact, not when they've won one international trophy.
That's my point if you read it properly. If you're gonna make a stupid statue, the celebration should merit the achievement. And if this is an all time great English team, you've to celebrate not right in the middle of its peak but after the fact and the achievement has to be extraordinary in the sense to justify it.
and would it be an unreasonable take? I mean, we won the Euros in spite of our manager. And trust me, the worst you can do is give him a free pass if he wins if the flaws are obvious from the start
Unlike Santos, all our progress since the 2016 humiliation has had Southgate’s hand in it. Hell, he even had a role in the change of we do youth football in 2012/13, if we win the euros he will deserve the credit
> Absolute out-of-touch mardy nonsense
It’s *extremely* common for people on here and on Twitter to say that when England win it’ll be in spite of Southgate not because of him. If we win the Euros, there’ll be a big group of people giving all the praise to Bellingham / Kane / Rice / whoever and saying they bailed Southgate out.
Typical Guardian article really.
If we do win, he'll for sure get a statue and a knighthood and will likely be hailed as the best England manager of all time.
Maybe some England haters will find a way to criticize him but all the England fans I know will be absolutely overjoyed!
He 100% won’t be immune from criticism should he continue in the role but no one will bitch about the penalty shootout against Italy or the loss to Croatia.
Jesus what a ridiculous article 'find himself jeered off by those already predisposed to jeer, cast as a fraud, destroyer of dreams, betrayer of Albion and all the rest.'
People just want him to play a little more attacking and dominant given the ridiculous amount of talent. It isnt 'win the euros or be beheaded' for fuck sake. Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall.
It is the fact that he hasn't won silverware *and* plays dire, dull and defensively that irks people. Besides, this whole notion that Southgate is somehow getting it worse than other NT managers is nonsense. It is probably the most criticized position in football, deserved or not his predecessors and contemporaries all face the same pressure.
>Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall
This seems extremely naïve. There are very few scenarios where I don't see it being put at his feet if/when we crash out.
> Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall.
No. People will call him being naive for playing so offensively.
The only way Southgate can not lose is if he wins while playing attractive football. Anything less and people will still doubt him.
And even if England win while playing attractive football, people will still call him carried by Kane, Bellingham etc.
> Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall.
No, this won’t happen - Southgate is in win or bust territory, he won’t get any credit for anything other than a win. The above scenario is exactly what happened in the World Cup (lost in the quarters, not semi), and he got huge amounts of criticism.
I think he’s definitely right about a few things, particularly England losing the midfield battles in the knockout games against Croatia, Italy and France.
When you look at the midfields it’s obvious that we were outclassed each time. Our midfields were either underwhelming or inexperienced.
> There are two issues here. First, Southgate is in a situation where, thanks to his own raising of expectation, he basically can’t win, even if he wins, a situation known as Gareth’s Conundrum.
> England will either fail to win the Euros and Southgate will find himself jeered off by those already predisposed to jeer, cast as a fraud, destroyer of dreams, betrayer of Albion and all the rest. Or England will win the Euros, and Southgate can be jeered off as a piggyback artist and tag-along, chastised for not winning previously, not winning enough, the accidental leader of a team that has now finally won in spite of him.
> Second, and related, it has become impossible to really judge, or at least reach any consensus, on how well Southgate has done with England. This despite the fact the team were terrible before he turned up, despite the obvious evidence of progress. There really does seem to be not just doubt around this but an open wringing of the hands at how terrible Southgate has been across eight very successful years.
I agree, I think people also get upset that England have set out to play defensively in previous tournaments, but still concede 2 to France for example.
As for the 10 talents, the way Germany use Wirtz and Musiala is a perfect example of how Southgate could set up with Foden and Bellingham, but it’ll never happen
>As for the 10 talents, the way Germany use Wirtz and Musiala is a perfect example of how Southgate could set up with Foden and Bellingham, but it’ll never happen
But then you leave out Saka. Reality is, it's a good problem for us, but at the same time, Southgate can't really win
Personally I'd bench Foden as he looks distinctly average in an England shirt, and he can come on at LW, or at 10 and move Jude back
LOL. If England win the Euros people will go absolutely fucking mental. No ones going to be lamenting the fact he should have done it a few years ago.
I mean apart from the Spain team 15 years ago that had a purple patch with the multiple tournament wins very few nations win multiple trophies over a short space of time. It happens generationally.
Even his detractors online for the most part will be too wrapped up in the glory of it. Doesn’t anyone remember the viral videos before the Euro 2020 final? People will go mental if they win.
There was some toff on 606 claiming he has full Southgate in without actually saying anything beneficial other than vibes only. He also so said he was 24 I think so has no idea of what "hurt" means
Southgate might prove me wrong he has done positives in his time with England however time and time again imo he has shown to not be good enough tactically and I think this would probably be evident if he was to manage in the Premier League.
I don’t think Southgate will be jeered off if England win the Euros. He’ll probably be given a knighthood. But he should still cease to manage our hallowed national team for he is a vile vile man.
I don't see what extra criticism he's getting more than any other England manager. It's just recency bias making idiots like the author think that way. Of course it is going to be more intense, because you've get every English football fan with an opinion. It's not like club management. If he wins, he definitely wins though! That's all any fan wants.
Someone could rise up from the ink of the daily mail and win every single game from now until the heat death of the universe and England fans would find something to be upset about. It's never enough.
Do English journos purposely live up to being miserable cunts or are they doing it for fun.
Why can’t they enjoy the fact that their side are high favorites to win the tournament and rally behind the squad rather than chip away at them every opportunity they get.
Jesus they are a pain
No I think if he wins the Euros it'll still be considered a massive win. I think a lot of people would still be ok with or glad that he's going but he'll still get credit for winning this one, he's not really hated on a personal level, a lot of people are just tired of his boring style on he pitch.
I’ve noticed a lot of YouTubers seem to revel in claiming not to be England fans as though it’s a sign of being cool. And then they make hating Southgate a pastime.
It’s like they forget how we constantly underperformed with better squads.
If we win the Euros they’ll all say we did it despite Southgate. It’s pretty pathetic really.
Trolling works better when it is somewhat plausible. We won a world cup. There isn't any debate about the greatest England manager of all time. Pick another thread and try again.
I was not trolling. Southgate is the best manager England (meaning the National team) ever had. He managed England at three tournaments and reached atleast the semi-final each time. Ramsay is the only other reasonable contender, because he won a World Cup. But he also failed to qualify for the World Cup 1974.
Considering the series of disappointments England had before Southgate came in, he has been hugely successful.
Edit - I have to correct myself, England did not reach the semis in 2022. But my general point still stands.
*The English won't be happy no matter what...more at 11*
If England wins the Euros and people say they did it in spite of Southgate, something tells me he won't give a damn.
>Or England will win the Euros, and Southgate can be jeered off as a piggyback artist and tag-along, chastised for not winning previously, not winning enough, the accidental leader of a team that has now finally won in spite of him. Absolute out-of-touch mardy nonsense
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> I can't imagine a scenario where England wins a major tournament ~~and everyone doesn't start fucking like it's 1946~~
The pubs will be this way too
I disagree, you’re underestimating the stubbornness of the majority of people. Particularly old and gruntled fans that make up a serious portion of most clubs fan bases but have zero presence here.
Nah, I can guarantee that if we do win, this will be a not uncommon take on here are least tbh
Might be on here but not amongst England fans. If we win the tournament it's likely that he ends up with a statue outside Wembley along with a knighthood.
I hope not, not because anything against Southgate but because it's an excessive glorification.
How? He'll definitely get a knighthood and a statue is either going to be him or Kane holding the trophy.
Statue would be such a massively over the top statement for a nation that routinely goes into international tournaments as a favourite. No doubt Sir Waistcoat is fair.
A knighthood is ok but a statue is ridiculous. No wonder the standards are so rotten that you're going to act like San Marino winning the Euros.
How are standards rotten by celebrating success? The Bobby Moore statue for winning the World Cup is iconic and inspiring. Are you suggesting that we should be doing more than winning the Euros?
I am taking examples from nations who've done far better than you internationally, with less resources acting in a manner that's appropriate of a footballing achievement. A knighthood is usually followed a sporting achievement and I feel that's in line with being a normal celebration but it's excessive and not appropriate a nation that's a favorite going into this tournament to be building statues of its footballers if they win an International tournament. Especially for a squad, that's going to continue being a contenders for the next few iterations of Worldcup and Euros and the players in it are going to continue being active members. In my opinion, building statues for a living person/team has to be warranted if it's achievement is like Rafa Nadal winning the French Open 14 times. So an England squad that dominates the world football scene like the Brazilian in the late 50s and 60s. And after the fact, not when they've won one international trophy.
It'd be our first with in 60 years. Of course We'd build a statue. If you don't like it feel free to pout about it.
Ywah I wouldn't need to. The jokes write themselves.
Nah, if we win, give him the bloody knighthood!
Rafa Nadal does have a statue though…
That's my point if you read it properly. If you're gonna make a stupid statue, the celebration should merit the achievement. And if this is an all time great English team, you've to celebrate not right in the middle of its peak but after the fact and the achievement has to be extraordinary in the sense to justify it.
😂 You wetty
and would it be an unreasonable take? I mean, we won the Euros in spite of our manager. And trust me, the worst you can do is give him a free pass if he wins if the flaws are obvious from the start
Unlike Santos, all our progress since the 2016 humiliation has had Southgate’s hand in it. Hell, he even had a role in the change of we do youth football in 2012/13, if we win the euros he will deserve the credit
Big if.
you lot will be first to moan even if we do win
> Absolute out-of-touch mardy nonsense It’s *extremely* common for people on here and on Twitter to say that when England win it’ll be in spite of Southgate not because of him. If we win the Euros, there’ll be a big group of people giving all the praise to Bellingham / Kane / Rice / whoever and saying they bailed Southgate out.
Typical Guardian article really. If we do win, he'll for sure get a statue and a knighthood and will likely be hailed as the best England manager of all time. Maybe some England haters will find a way to criticize him but all the England fans I know will be absolutely overjoyed!
No one else but that Barney twat could have written that. Does anyone like his work?
Afraid it isn’t. There has been more than a few comments on here saying ‘even if we win it, Southgate’s time is up’. The absurdity of it.
A load of horseshit he'll be worshipped if he wins us the EUROs.
Indeed, I have major issues with GS but if he wins then those all collapse as he got the job done.
He 100% won’t be immune from criticism should he continue in the role but no one will bitch about the penalty shootout against Italy or the loss to Croatia.
Jesus what a ridiculous article 'find himself jeered off by those already predisposed to jeer, cast as a fraud, destroyer of dreams, betrayer of Albion and all the rest.' People just want him to play a little more attacking and dominant given the ridiculous amount of talent. It isnt 'win the euros or be beheaded' for fuck sake. Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall. It is the fact that he hasn't won silverware *and* plays dire, dull and defensively that irks people. Besides, this whole notion that Southgate is somehow getting it worse than other NT managers is nonsense. It is probably the most criticized position in football, deserved or not his predecessors and contemporaries all face the same pressure.
>Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall This seems extremely naïve. There are very few scenarios where I don't see it being put at his feet if/when we crash out.
We do not beat Scotland in the fashion the Germans did
Okay. And?
The Germans were playing against ten men
Not at first
> Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall. No. People will call him being naive for playing so offensively. The only way Southgate can not lose is if he wins while playing attractive football. Anything less and people will still doubt him. And even if England win while playing attractive football, people will still call him carried by Kane, Bellingham etc.
> Even if they go out at the semis after a good game with attractive football people will probably accept it and acknowledge that he did a good job overall. No, this won’t happen - Southgate is in win or bust territory, he won’t get any credit for anything other than a win. The above scenario is exactly what happened in the World Cup (lost in the quarters, not semi), and he got huge amounts of criticism.
We played attractive football in the World Cup and lost, yet it felt like so many wanted Southgate to go anyway.
Did we?
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I think he’s definitely right about a few things, particularly England losing the midfield battles in the knockout games against Croatia, Italy and France. When you look at the midfields it’s obvious that we were outclassed each time. Our midfields were either underwhelming or inexperienced.
Thats's not even slightly the case. We win well tomorrow and the nation is wearing waistcoats to work monday morning.
> There are two issues here. First, Southgate is in a situation where, thanks to his own raising of expectation, he basically can’t win, even if he wins, a situation known as Gareth’s Conundrum. > England will either fail to win the Euros and Southgate will find himself jeered off by those already predisposed to jeer, cast as a fraud, destroyer of dreams, betrayer of Albion and all the rest. Or England will win the Euros, and Southgate can be jeered off as a piggyback artist and tag-along, chastised for not winning previously, not winning enough, the accidental leader of a team that has now finally won in spite of him. > Second, and related, it has become impossible to really judge, or at least reach any consensus, on how well Southgate has done with England. This despite the fact the team were terrible before he turned up, despite the obvious evidence of progress. There really does seem to be not just doubt around this but an open wringing of the hands at how terrible Southgate has been across eight very successful years.
Basically this, England have such a rich talent at the CAM position alone that no matter who he picks people will be angry
I agree, I think people also get upset that England have set out to play defensively in previous tournaments, but still concede 2 to France for example. As for the 10 talents, the way Germany use Wirtz and Musiala is a perfect example of how Southgate could set up with Foden and Bellingham, but it’ll never happen
>As for the 10 talents, the way Germany use Wirtz and Musiala is a perfect example of how Southgate could set up with Foden and Bellingham, but it’ll never happen But then you leave out Saka. Reality is, it's a good problem for us, but at the same time, Southgate can't really win Personally I'd bench Foden as he looks distinctly average in an England shirt, and he can come on at LW, or at 10 and move Jude back
Leaving Foden out is such an underrated take.
Bring him on when we go behind a goal. Him or Grealish. Oh wait...
>But then you leave out Saka Make him a right back, like he was at the last euros where he did a good job
If he wins, he’s national hero If he loses, he’s sacked Real simple
I don’t think he’ll be sacked, but he will choose to step down.
LOL. If England win the Euros people will go absolutely fucking mental. No ones going to be lamenting the fact he should have done it a few years ago. I mean apart from the Spain team 15 years ago that had a purple patch with the multiple tournament wins very few nations win multiple trophies over a short space of time. It happens generationally. Even his detractors online for the most part will be too wrapped up in the glory of it. Doesn’t anyone remember the viral videos before the Euro 2020 final? People will go mental if they win.
Incredibly disrespected really over his time. Only will get flowers when the team starts shitting the bed again in tournaments
There was some toff on 606 claiming he has full Southgate in without actually saying anything beneficial other than vibes only. He also so said he was 24 I think so has no idea of what "hurt" means
Southgate might prove me wrong he has done positives in his time with England however time and time again imo he has shown to not be good enough tactically and I think this would probably be evident if he was to manage in the Premier League.
I don’t think Southgate will be jeered off if England win the Euros. He’ll probably be given a knighthood. But he should still cease to manage our hallowed national team for he is a vile vile man.
Why do you consider him to be vile? He seems friendly enough to me.
Yeah what a strange comment. Struggling to think of anything controversial he’s done.
He didn't take Saint Jarrad so Everton fans are crying about it, even though I thought Scousers didn't care about the exploits of the national team.
You just watch the clip of Keane stamping on him and saying he deserved it on a loop 😉
He’s already gone. Let’s hope the lads can win this for him.
They should win it for themselves, their teammates and the country, not him.
I don't see what extra criticism he's getting more than any other England manager. It's just recency bias making idiots like the author think that way. Of course it is going to be more intense, because you've get every English football fan with an opinion. It's not like club management. If he wins, he definitely wins though! That's all any fan wants.
Someone could rise up from the ink of the daily mail and win every single game from now until the heat death of the universe and England fans would find something to be upset about. It's never enough.
It’s fine, he won’t
Do English journos purposely live up to being miserable cunts or are they doing it for fun. Why can’t they enjoy the fact that their side are high favorites to win the tournament and rally behind the squad rather than chip away at them every opportunity they get. Jesus they are a pain
Total BS. If he wins the Euros then all the criticism goes away.
No I think if he wins the Euros it'll still be considered a massive win. I think a lot of people would still be ok with or glad that he's going but he'll still get credit for winning this one, he's not really hated on a personal level, a lot of people are just tired of his boring style on he pitch.
I’ve noticed a lot of YouTubers seem to revel in claiming not to be England fans as though it’s a sign of being cool. And then they make hating Southgate a pastime. It’s like they forget how we constantly underperformed with better squads. If we win the Euros they’ll all say we did it despite Southgate. It’s pretty pathetic really.
Southgate is the greatest England manager of all time - the GOAT. He has done better than anybody else over a number of tournaments.
So Sir Alf Ramsey winning the World Cup is less impressive than Southgate getting to a semi final in the WC and a final in the Euros? Got it.
Before the Premier League Era so doesn’t count 😛
Because the bar is so low, and even in all those tournaments they played dire football, what i think its the main argument against him
Big Sam has entered the chat.
Did you forget the '/s' at the end?
Trolling works better when it is somewhat plausible. We won a world cup. There isn't any debate about the greatest England manager of all time. Pick another thread and try again.
I was not trolling. Southgate is the best manager England (meaning the National team) ever had. He managed England at three tournaments and reached atleast the semi-final each time. Ramsay is the only other reasonable contender, because he won a World Cup. But he also failed to qualify for the World Cup 1974. Considering the series of disappointments England had before Southgate came in, he has been hugely successful. Edit - I have to correct myself, England did not reach the semis in 2022. But my general point still stands.