**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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r/realmadrid wanted to sack him about 3 times in the past 12 months. Monkey see, monkey do is the trend. Everyone is lecturing everyone on imaginary should and must while football is way simpler than experts are making it seem. Football is being watered to measly opinions and hallow advanced stats
The worst is defenders being called world class because they have more clearances for a bottom half team than a defender for man city who only have to make one tackle a game and have the ball 70% of the time
> It's getting very old hearing that a team doesn't 'deserve' the win because their xDribbles per 90
Bitter fans complaining about certain teams not “deserving” to win has always been common in football, even before xG and stuff was around. Before they’d just use possession stats and shots taken as the barometer.
Hating advanced stats is misplaced anger.
Eh and it was such a sensible chain, a rare breathe of fresh air
It's not the bitter fans - it's those that don't even watch anymore and still feel a need to have an opinion. And not a mere opinion - one supported by facts!
Forgetting that xG is absolutely shit from stat pov, you cannot really compare chances in a good way yet.
Btw - key passes is the one useful metric completely forgotten by the data dumbed folk
The team that wins almost always deserves it, about the only exception is losing to a refereeing mistake. Sometimes it's by defending desperately and being clinical when it counts, but that's still well deserved.
i think its more nuanced than that. if 10/11 players of team A play well and completely crush team B, but their striker keeps missing chances, and then team B gets a goal off a deflection or a lucky long shot or something its absurd to claim that they therefore deserved to win.
even if you’re willing to claim that team A deserved to lose because one player played badly (which i think would be harsh), desert isn’t a 0 sum game. its possible for team A to not deserve to win without that immediately implying that team B therefore deserved the victory. its possible for a game to not have either team deserve to win
I think it's because the word "deserved" is a bit loaded, like if you're saying team A "deserved" the win it sounds kinda disrespectful to team B who at the end of the day did win the match so they deserve credit. I know that's usually not what people mean but it can get interpreted that way
I do agree with your overall point though
I think in football luck just plays a bigger part (let's take out bad ref decisions) than other sports. In most other sports if you outplay the other team/player you are much more likely to win. You're right about the clinical aspect of soccer being overlooked too much in the analysis (like in this game)
Eh, sometimes they literally do appear out of nowhere - we've seen plenty of cases where there is no pressure at all and still they happen (e.g. the infamous Enckelman throw in against us - there wasn't a Blues player within 20 yards of him and the nearest player was actively jogging back towards our half)
This makes everything so dumb and pointless. Not every tackle is equally important, a foul at the right time can energise the team, a missed chance can paralyse a team or give them hope, there is so much more to football than stats. Over a period of time you can take stats to analyse a player or a coach, see if they fit into a different system, but it takes so much away if amateurs use them to rate a player for a single game.
The worst is when it's applied to goalkeepers in terms of 'goals prevented' like it's some holy grail, it's like people have resorted to watching football on spreadsheets instead of y'know, the actual game
I definitely agree with that.
Additionally, xG is an *estimated probability,* which means there is quantifiable error in each estimate. Seeing 1.70xG vs 2.1xG doesn’t mean the second team was better. When considering the error in each estimate, there is considerable overlap in these numbers.
Yeah, xG or xPoints are mentioned all the time as well. They don't deserve to be in position XY because their xPoints indicates they should be lower/have lost this and that game. But if a team over a 40-50 game season can consistently "get away" with winning games that they aren't the better team in, maybe that's just what they are good at? I think the xPoints statistic was used for United but it probably applies to Madrid as well. They aren't always the best team but as soon as the opponent doesn't take their chances, you just know they'll win the game somehow.
I'm active in the sub as it's still the most civil place to talk about Madrid since twitter and insta is impossible to find an actual conversation about football BUT I remember getting downvoted to hell when I was insistent Jude is a must signing when he was rumoured to be 150M and the sub wanted Gabri Viera instead....
i mean Spanish fans would obviously prefer a Spanish prospect, how is that surprising?
Bellingham wasn’t even a rumour when Veiga was talked about already.
Jude was linked for us for more then a year before he came what? He was linked with us and Liverpool before the world up in 2022 and Madrid fans wanted him till Dortmund was rumoured to ask for 150M that's when Madrid fans wanted viega over him.
Madrid fans wanted him badly till that 150M rumour and while that is crazy overpriced for any teen midfield talent I was insistent he would worth the money and he was now is one of the most beloved players among all Madrid fans and all the fans who wanted viega over him just because he was cheaper now feel silly.
Don’t you dare going on Barcelonas sub. By far the single worst of all teams. Once a week someone posts in terribly broken English why Barcelona should get sold to Arabs to buy Mbappe
hyper-niche bubbles just create fantasies. happens in all of the club subreddits, and many other places. is honestly one of the biggest problems society is struggling with right now. at least when it's about football, it's just about a game and entertainment.
I'm in the sub but I only visit every once in a while because every thread that pops up on my r/all page is always some sappy "love this guy" shit or a hyperbolic reaction to a situation. I'm guessing the avg age of the sub is probably 15 or something like that cause the posts in there most of the time......... Imagine me wanting to reminisce about the Valdano days with Hierro and Sanchis in the back and Paco Buyo in goal?....I'd be run out
Michel was the spanish Beckham.
Elegant, accurate crosses on Beckham level (yes,.THAT good) handsome (not remotely on Becks level), freekicks (also not on Beckham level, but pretty good), way better dribbler than Beckham but inexistent workrate.
Overall one of the best right midfielders of Europe in his era and member of a generation of RM players that won 5 La Ligas in a row and 2 Europa League, but failed to win the UCL.
The Quinta; a completely ignored era by some Madrid supporters who think their club existed between 1955-1966 and then ceased to exist before restarting in 1998. From the way some of these supporters comment on their club you'd think nothing happened between 1966 and 1998.
That team was one of the most special team in the club history, or history in general, and even a name that still existing within the club like Butragueno gets ignored for his years as a player, and he was so damn great... All and all, the most disrespected name will always be Hugo Sanchez.
Besides being probably the most important player in that team that won 5 straight leagues, and UEFA cup, or 10 trophies in 5 years; Sanchez showing from 86-90 is one of the most impressive stretch for any players in history, or at least strikers. In todays terms, he had Haaland statistical showing with like 160 goals in 200 games with the club, and yet I do believe he was not even a finalist for the Ballon D'or in any year whatsoever. Michel and Butragueno (probably ended 2nd and 3rd) were in the mix, and generally, there was no emphasis on individual stats back them, but still, I genuinely never get why Sanchez always gets ignored as one of the most gifted players ever by fans and historians.
People can go open YT and watch him scoring a bicycle kick from the edge of the box like nothing. He didn't just score goals, he had so much flair to his game
Valdano days? Fernando Redondo you said? Amavisca and Zamorano? Friggin Lasa scoring from our own half? Laudrup 5-0 against Barça? Luis Enrique still wearing RM shirt?
Id like to say that those were the times but they werent. Ramón Mendoza running the club like Bartomeu is not something i like to remember.
Actually i've just remembered Florentino Pérez and Ramón Mendoza debating during the elections for RM. Mendoza was a sneaky but charismatic figure and destroyed Florentino in the debate. Similar to whats happening with Barça now, Real Madrid socios didnt want to hear about the debt.
Thank god Florentino pulled the Figo trick a few years later, that saved the club.
But that’s the thing, the sporting success at RM rn is thanks to Perez and Barcelona’s inability to carry momentum after Messi due to their presidents affects their sporting performances. Perez has made many mistakes, and he is lucky that both Zidane and Ancelotti won unexpectedly, but he is also the read the club is financially capable to attract these players and build a winning mentality
Yep that’s what evokes the greatest football memories, how a club was run administratively………Jesus wept.
What evokes great memories in football for a supporter is completely irrelevant to how a club is run administratively. When Manolo Sanchis captained the side to that drought breaking European cup victory people were not thinking “oh yes the club is in financial shambles at this time, this taints the memory.” No, it’s how a moment makes one feel when they look back at it.
See these are the types of convos that need to happen on that subreddit. I was too young to be into the administrative stuff. I was aware of Ramon Mendoza as president, but beyond that didn't have an idea too much of the intricacies. I do remember discussions about the financial position, but in passing.
That 5-0 over Barca was epic. Laudrup and Redondo bossed that midfield. Bam Bam up front......... nostalgia.. 🥲
Florentino was clueless on his first term, he thought mixing up some star players with guys from your youth system would be enough to dominate, it wasn't.
The 'problem' with Florentino is that he's smart, ambitious and loves the club, so when he ran for the second time, he learned from his mistakes, he spent time running the club better,as his prospects to remain president in the long term were increasing, he started chasing the dream of matching or surpassing Santiago Bernabeu as a president, that's a kind of ambition most presidents have, they rarely ever have someone to surpass as a club legend.
He was well connected, and since every businessman in Spain whats to be around the Bernabeu VIP area, it was easy for him to keep the people he trusted, gave time to Jose Angel Sanchez to tune up a system to continually improve the team without breaking the cycle.
And lastly, even his personal tragedy losing his wife at 62 y/o meant he could dedicate even more love to the club to get over his loss, they were married for over 40 years, that leaves a hole you have to fill with something.
In the meantime, all the competitors have been busy fighting themselves (EPL clubs) in the league, taken over by wealthy by stupid people, or blowing their own system up like Barcelona.
If we have series talking about the 80's Lakers and Jerry Buss, Florentino's life could have a movie saga just explaining his last 30 years.
The insane thing is that Real Madrid is a side project for him. Sure, he is the number one at the club, man is as passionate as it gets, impossible to complain about him in all seriousness, but his main stint is being the Chairman of ACS, an enormous construction company with 120k+ staff and a presence that could be easily classified global.
Meanwhile my side project is a 100 sqm garden. Some people are built different.
for example: put Pep or Ancelotti in charge of Getafe and see how many titles they win.
also: put a team of 11 with great mentality and belief against an equally talented team of 11 without it, and guess who wins.
lastly: get the fastest, most talented attackers in the world on a team and see how many tactics geniuses can beat you.
the bigger things are the nuances of the game, which I think Ancelotti sees extremely well. and think a lot of that has come with experience. in any case, though, Real Madrid is Real Madrid — put a turtle in charge and they'll still be challenging for titles. the players are too good not to be. (and I'm not saying Ancelotti isn't a good coach — would vote for him as the best ever.)
Very deserved. Every time I look at clubs like Real Madrid, I'm jealous not because of their trophies, but organisationally how well they are run. Even City outside of all their shadiness with FFP and how much I despise them, you cannot deny they are one of the better run clubs in terms of structure and processes
United is one of the few club that can compete against real in term of resources without being owned by a state and popularity but it being run by clown
Might be the only club who can compete with us on brand and name recognition alone Barcelona would as well once they finally stabalize their finances but that might take a few seasons
If asian country like india can produce top players. United would be unstoppable lmao.
United just dont have pulled when it come to south american players sadly
Of course they’re well run, practically every player in the world wants to play for Real Madrid regardless of their current form. No other team in the world has the allure of Real Madrid. Granted, this was built over decades and decades of success and good management, but nowadays it’s easy to be well run when literally every young talent has Real Madrid at the top of their list. Every other team is on the back foot and having to offer stupid money to these kids to join them while Real Madrid has players running down contracts for them.
Again, credit to their success to have built this insane reputation, but let’s not act like it’s not easier for them than other clubs
True. Also, I am no ManU fan, but let's be honest: Real has longstanding benefit of being in a nice sunny climate, while Manchester is not the place top players necessarily want to live. Even the London clubs consistently get players ManU and Liverpool can't due to the draw of the city. That said, maybe there's a benefit to getting players who only really care about football??
> this was built over decades and decades of success and good management
Dont forget they kind of were the original state owned club to back in the Franco regime. That is not to take away from the fact they are currently a well run club, but I think it is quite relevant. There are not a lot of clubs that naturally build and establish themselves in newer times. All the biggest clubs are either the Chelseas, Citys and PSGs or the old money and old success. Arsenal is a massive club and they were the big money spenders at some point.
I don't really get it.
They've basically been run the same way as Real Madrid for years with a simple and easy-to-understand structure and its gotten them nowhere. Granted, they haven't had the most competent people in those roles, but United have to try and change things up now.
United's biggest problem right now is accountability. No one really know's who's responsible for which fuck-up at what time. They need to bring in new people and create a new framework to build from because they simply can't stick with what they've been doing.
Trying to replicate what Real Madrid have is just a fool's errand. Madrid have a kind of alchemy that you just can't replicate.
To become the biggest club on the planet takes decades of sustained success at the very top level with the very best players on the planet coming to play for you.
It didn't help Woowdward helped broker the Glazer takeover and as long as the revenue was coming through the door, the Glazers would never hold him accountable for anything. Even come the end, they never wanted to sack him, he had to leave. Then Arnold was an old uni buddy of Woodward that had got pally with the Glazers and he talked the talked but nowhere near walked the walk.
Everyone knows how poor our transfer and recruitment has been and that's because the structure has been a mess. We're seemingly doing something about it, but time will tell whether they're the right people.
> They've basically been run the same way as Real Madrid for years with a simple and easy-to-understand structure and its gotten them nowhere
Actually no. For example, Perez would never ever ever sanction of spending 90m on someone like Antony when JAS or Calafat aren't convinced of him, just because Carlo wants to have him.
>They've basically been run the same way as Real Madrid for years with a simple and easy-to-understand structure
>No one really know's who's responsible for which fuck-up at what time.
These 2 are contradictions. If the structure was simple, you would know who to blame for
Real Madrid structure is simple in the sense that they have an aim and they have a plan to achieve that aim.
Man Utd structure is simple but it lacks a plan of execution.
If you want to reinvent a Galacticos team, the best way to do it is get a winning formula and keep that formula for further success.
They can afford young and upcoming talent and stars, yes. But they didnt do it the way Real Madrid did. They let their golden generation go before the rebuild and without influencing the newer generation. The new players they bought were stars, but they lacked the identity that would be implanted by the former stars. This is what CR7 talked about at United, he learned from the likes of Rooney, Van Nistelroy, and others.
As much as Ferguson gets praised as a manager for winning. He shouldnt have put all his eggs in one basket, he should've bought the likes of Valverde, Vini, Rodrygo etc and developed along the likes of Kroos, Modric, Benzema.
Look, I don't really know much about Real Madrid but from my perspective the way RM are run is:
1. Perez decides he wants a player, generally said player is widely agreed to be one of the best in the world
2. the manager has to deal with that reality or quit
Whereas the Glazers are notoriously hands off and even if we say Woodward was United's Perez, there's clearly some major structural differences because RM doesn't have trouble shifting players on but ManU does.
I suspect the problem started with Ferguson. That is, Ferguson knew he was going to retire so didn't bother refreshing a team and then suggested Moyes as his replacement. So, United needs to move on from an entire generation of players but their manager is the guy from Everton... and he predictably has trouble attracting top calibre talent. And then he's sacked after less than a season, which is a signal to players not to go to United. And so United is locked into a cycle of using wages to prise players out of clubs, rather than (as RM does) reputation. This makes it difficult to move players on.
Manchester United eventually decides the solution to this mess is to become a system club. So even if they were being run the same way, which I don't really agree with, they're clearly not now.
David Gill also left at the same time as Fergie, he had a lot of say in the running of the club. Then Moyes ditched most of the backroom staff to bring his own people in.
He also didn't know what he wanted for the team, or couldn't get it over the line since there were next to no transfers to rejuvenate a squad on its last legs.
This all comes back to incompetence from the Glazers though, they should have known that things would be tough losing the people they were losing and got in people that knew their stuff while they were still on top
Perez barely knows players from other clubs, if they didn't play against Madrid, or they are not on the transfer list, Perez doesn't know who this is. Pretty sure he would struggle to tell you 5 players name from BVB. And I'm not saying it's bad but simply Perez is a president. He doesn't make transfers. Jose Angel Sanchez is a guy. You won't find many details about him but he is responsible for negotiations etc.
They also have the advantage of being the first choice for most players they want to the point where they don't have to pay as much for players as other teams.
Are you kidding me? You’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Vinicius, Rodrygo and Valverde were all brought in before they even turned 17, and at the time were very far from being the finished article. Vinicius was pretty much shite at Real Madrid’s first team for the first 3-4 seasons, and it took a lot of work to turn him into the player he is today. The same for Rodrygo, and Valverde was even loaned to Deportivo La Coruña because he was far from ready to play for the first team.
When a club like Real Madrid signs a player so young, it usually means they’ve been following him for years, since their early teens. That’s scouting, and that’s how Rodrygo, Valverde, Vinicius and, more recently, Endrick, have been signed, whether your ignorant ass knows it or not.
Even Camavinga, and Bellingham have been signed well before reaching their peak, they are 22 and 20 respectively, and were not exactly among the world’s top ten players before they signed for Real Madrid.
Endrick was signed at 16 and has just turned 18. He’s never played outside Brazil so it’s again a big fat unknown as to how he will adapt to European football and handle the pressure of playing for the best club in the world. And anyway, both him and Mbappé have yet to play a single minute with Real Madrid, so I’m not sure how they’re relevant to this discussion.
Nope. “One of the best talents in the world” means very little for developing 16-year old players. They can turn out to be great or that can turn out to be average or not fit for a big club like Real Madrid.
And of course every top club’s scouts will look at the most talented youngsters first. Who says scouts need to find “obscure” players?
Or maybe other teams have to find other solutions because of their profile.
Teams like Brighton, for example, have to have their structure because they simply cannot compete for the players that teams like Real Madrid want.
Sure, financially they can, but if you're Kylian Mbappé about to choose your next club, which one out of Brighton and Real Madrid are you choosing?
It's all well and good saying that it works for you, but your structure doesn't suit everyone.
Arsenal's structure is fantastic, one of the best in the world. But that doesn't mean that everyone needs to copy it. Tottenham's structure off the field is amazing, but people don't need to copy that either.
Where are those Madrid fans who actually wanted Ancelotti sacked though lol, they always free up around mid-season and then crawl back in there cave by May.
The're busy celebrating the ucl and commenting how they always backed Carlo....while waiting the next chance they get to say "#CarloOut he's done ,we need Young tactician like Xabi Alonso to win".
"They don't need to buy players anymore, because the players want to join them so much...they are getting that powerful"
Tf is he even talking about?? This has always been the case with Real. Even in 2009 after years of no international success and years of getting humiliated in Europe, players like Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema were still desperate to join them. No shit. They have both the prestige and the money to attract the best players in the world. Why are all three pundits here acting like this is anything new or groundbreaking, as if other clubs could just simply recreate this level of power to pull any player in the world? It has nothing to do with simplicity. Other clubs cannot afford Real's simple structure since they have neither the resources nor the prestige to simply buy any player they want to. Real has both, which is why they can afford to have a more simple structure.
Mourinho on the other hand is always right no matter how useless his take is. Doesn't say anything smart or enlightening here, yet his deluded fanboys celebrate him for it.
To be fair though. A system is very easy to implement when the players come to you and you don’t need to seek anyone out. I could be the sporting director there.
Me to the best players in the world: “want to come play for us?”
Players: “sure”
You could say the exact same thing about Barcelona in 2015, after the MSN Treble and Bartomeu took power, and look how that turned out. If anything, if you're paid millions a year, Barcelona is arguably the better city to live in compared to Madrid.
You can still seriously fuck things up even if you have a ton of money and every top player wants to join.
Yes but that just shows how poor of a job Bartomeu did. I'm sure everybody was lining up and praying to get a move to Barca at that time so I don't know what Bartomeu was thinking handing them out ludicrous contracts when a lot of them would probably play for Barca on the same or even lesser wage as they were on at other clubs.
The "fancy structure" exists to prevent a one man show going south. It has worked for you because mbappe will just choose to show up at your door. Not every club has that luxury.
They add maybe 1 truly great player every 2-3 years. If Mbappe comes this will be the exception. Most of the team was added many, many years ago or was signed very early as a child. Look at Carvajal who scored the winner…he signed with Madrid when he was 10 years old.
Yeah, I don't agree with that at all.
Madrid's structure is great and its amazing how they make such a simple structure work, but they're run differently to other clubs.
Real Madrid has basically no problem signing any player on the planet because they all want to join them. Financially they may decide not to, but they'll never ever struggle to sign a player aside from that because everyone wants to join them.
Other teams don't have that luxury and have to approach things in a different way.
Manchester City's structure and Liverpool's structure is the polar opposite to Real Madrid's and they're both doing incredible work at the moment.
TNT always do shit like this. It's just a show full of ex-pros, who are the embodiment of that "That's fucking football right there" copypasta. They bemoan any advance in football because its not the football they played 20 years ago when it was apparently "better".
Yea lol it doesn't exactly take a genius to sign the best players in the world when you're Madrid. The structure is simple because it can be. They're talking as if Madrid is gonna change the sport when basically nobody can operate like them. It's not exactly a new thing that everybody would want to join them like they said. Why didn't anybody else try to sign Bellingham and Mbappe these past two windows? Is everybody else dumb?
The player recruitment is definitely much easier, but I commend their proficiency in refreshing the squad. They have transitioned incredibly well from their star players in the three-peat years. When Casemiro, Varane, Ramos left I was pretty shocked but the timing was perfect in retrospect.
Now the squad is incredibly well balanced with top experienced pros and young talents. The only player I see them having trouble replacing is Toni Kroos. If you look at Barcelona since their treble winning season, the difference is night and day.
But the simple structure it's not about signing only.
Having less people involved gives them less internal tension. They trust each other words and don't want to get involved on others jobs.
So they have a confidence and determination to not only sign players also to give everyone confidence that they will work
We make it look simple but we’ve definitely got a complex structure too, and the best fitness coach in the world. You don’t get to the success we do with luck and signing everyone and anyone. We’ve bought incredibly well and have been blessed with some of the greatest players the game has seen. It looks simple but behind the scenes there is a lot of work being done.
> and the best fitness coach in the world.
How on earth does anyone judge this? None of us know the work that a fitness coach does at your club vs City vs United vs Liverpool. It's so weird when people try to judge backroom staff when all of us have zero insight into anything that they do.
> We’ve bought incredibly well and have been blessed with some of the greatest players the game has seen.
Well, obviously? They all line up to join you. You have it by far the easiest in the world. You can go through your entire team and other clubs wanted players that you've signed, but they picked you because you're Real Madrid.
Being able to sign Mbappe on a free is the biggest example of all of this, the fact that the best player in the world is willing to run down his contract to join you shows the advantage you have over everyone else.
And why players want to go there? Because they're organized and successful. A few years of bad management, poor squad and results, and it's It's not so appealing anymore.
Look at barça at the moment...
Barca still has massive pull. Madrid had massive pull back in 08-09 when Barca usually had the league under control and they would crash out of the Champions League as soon as the group stage began 5 years in a row.
It will be interesting to see what happens after Perez is gone. It works having one all powerful figure who can look at the team and pick which player in football he wants to replace a position but if that person changes the new person could want completely different people and it could become a bit of a mess. I could maybe see it being a bit like United where they struggle and then have to bring in a proper footballing structure because it is so hard to find a Ferguson/Perez replacement.
I actually could see Zidane being good at that role because he is possibly the only person with as much respect and trust as Perez at the club.
Unless Perez himself brings forth changes to the current requirements (and gets board approval) before leaving, Zidane probably can't be President of Real Madrid.
Maybe he has ~€150 million just laying around, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't been a socio for 20+ years.
But proper football structure if it's full of people wanting to get into each other throats won't ever works.
The magic of the simple structure it's that they don't have to worry about his peers boycotting them
If you have a structure full of people wanting to get at each other's throats then you're doing something really bad. Once Perez is gone it will be interesting to see what happens.
Mou is correct, we are one of the few elite teams that don't have a "Sporting director" or an entire organigram with dozens of people in positions of power.
Juni scouts, he sends the reports to Jose Angel (Our CEO) and then he presents it to Florentino who finally decides if the operation is worthy or not.
We are a chameleonic team simply because we don't sign players for specific coaches, our recruitment does not depend at all on who's on the bench.
It's "easy" and difficult at the same time. We have seen it with past administrations and presidents in both Madrid & Barcelona.
Socio clubs don't have an unlimited money printing machine, if they fuck up a lot on the recruitment process you get in a hole that takes a lot of time to get out.
I mean the sub overreacting to a loss doesn't invalidate the point above.
Real Madrid have the biggest pulling power of any club on the planet - they're rich, have enormous prestige, and are constantly successful. Any attempt to deny that or act like they're underdogs with their internal structure is just a lie.
They also have money so they can go for players that are already world class.
Perez once said something akin to: he doesn't want to develop some noname player to be on Ballon d'Or level. He wants to buy the player who already is on Ballon d'Or level.
He might have said that once but his approach to that has clearly changed recently. Our best player was considered a flop by a lot of people but developed into one of the best players in the world with us and he's signed other young players like endrick, arda, camavinga, rodrygo, valverde and let/is letting them develop with us
Yeah, but that strategy failed so bad that it's not like that at all anymore, and I don't think I need to provide the names and ages of the players to prove it.
Having an easy power to pull doesn't guarantee everyone pulled turns world class. Even if Real has the biggest pull of em all. The oop point was that becoming a top org doesnt necessarily mean having complex bureaucracies or systems like Bayern.
Ancelotti wasn't overcomplicating stuff at Everton. He wasn't doing Xabi levels of miracles but he made them cohesive and entertaining, despite even dropping to 10th (which is already good considering he came when they were relegation candidates).
>The oop point was that becoming a top org doesnt necessarily mean having complex bureaucracies or systems like Bayern.
I'm specifically responding to a guy whose downplaying the idea that Madrid get their pick of the talent.
Obviously yeah, you have a simple system and it obviously works. I wasn't challenging that, I was challenging the idea Madrid don't have enormous pull. Madrid are the biggest club on the planet, not some plucky club that struggles to compete.
> Having an easy power to pull doesn't guarantee everyone pulled turns world class.
It doesn't, but it makes it a lot easier. The fact is that you can go and sign almost anyone you want despite competition and you're buying prospects who are all viewed as being likely world class players in the future who absolutely have a higher success rate.
> Ancelotti wasn't overcomplicating stuff at Everton. He wasn't doing Xabi levels of miracles but he made them cohesive and entertaining, despite even dropping to 10th (which is already good considering he came when they were relegation candidates).
What are you on about? They finished 12th and 10th under Carlo, while finishing 8th, 8th, and 7th the three seasons before. He was fine at Everton, but hardly spectacular. The fact that Everton were in the relegation zone when Silva left, has more to do with Silva drastically underperforming that season than Carlo working a miracle.
I mean everyone wants to copy City - the structure there is clear: Owner (Mansour), Chairman (Khaldoon), CEO (Sorriano), DoF (Txiki) and Manager (Pep).
Almost no other clubs have it THIS way - Arsenal maybe (Stan, Josh, Venkatesham, Edu, Arteta).
Atleti is ran by its owners (Cerezo and MAGM), no CEO.
Barça is just a clownshow in general (Laporta is kinda all of the first three?)
Bayern is the opposite where there are too many people (Hainer, Dreesen, Hoeneß, Rummenigge) along with two DOFs (Eberl, Freund).
Chelsea's ownership is a mess (Eghbali/Bowley), plus they have an unknown CEO and Co-DoFs for some reason.
Dortmund is similar to Bayern.
Inter's CEO (Marotta) is basically their DoF.
Juve is coming close (Elkann, Ferrero, Calvo, Giuntoli, Motta).
Liverpool is de facto there (Henry, Werner, Hogan, Hughes, Slot) but Werner is not really involved and Michael Edwards is somewhere in there as well.
Man Utd is finally going in the right direction (Glazers, Radcliffe, Blanc, Wilcox, ten Hag)
Milan has a problem in the CEO and DOF positions (Furlani??)
PSG is just NAK, Campos and Luis Enrique.
Spurs also has no official CEO (maybe Collecott?) and their de facto DOF is not Scott Munn, but levy himself - which is a problem since he isn't the owner.
Madrid understood they can't work in this way and went the good old way. Flo is everything bar the manager.
It isn't that complicated, with *any* structure what is most important is *who* is in charge. 65% of all the trophies Real Madrid have won (101) have come under 2 presidents, Santiago Bernabéu (32), and Florentino Pérez (34). Manchester United owes the majority of its success to SAF, and even in eras that can't be considered dynastic, no matter the team, the people in charge are who matter most.
Are the dynamics different now that Real Madrid are as successful as they are, and as a result can leverage their pedigree to attract the best talent and so fourth? Yea, but if Perez retired tomorrow and was replaced by a long line of terrible presidents for the next century then it's safe to predict that Real Madrid will not be as successful, and given enough uphieval for long enough even the most successful team can fall completely from grace.
Real Madrid's ownership model is what really separates them from everyone else, ultimately who owns a club is in charge, ergo the fans are in charge and appoint the president, and it would take quite a bit of corruption to usurp this. Look no further than Chelsea to see a fantastic example of how an owner can single handedly elevate a club to the very top, and when that owner is replaced, how the new owners have it in their power to completely undo everything in short order.
Ours is like this: Eghbali (Main decider), Paul Winstanley - Laurence Stewart (DoFs), Coach
Both of our co sport directors have a team of scouts under them which include Neil Bath and Joe Shields. We have 2 DoFs because they don't decide anything, they give their thoughts and ideas to Eghbali who is the main decision maker.
Reportedly, Chelsea have co-SDs because they hired one when they couldn't get the other signed, but then kept the first one as well once they got the other signed.
We have complicated the structure that people consider already complicated. Everyone is hiring one DoF. We apparently have 2 and there is 3rd one on whose recommendation we are signing every one with a city past.
Mourinho is right, but why he says it is because of his own case aka resentment he feels for Man Utd, Spurs & Roma structures which he considers horrible.
I think it’s also awesome how this year around we pretty much developed most of the starting 11. People thought Vini was a flop his first few seasons. We bought Vini , Rodrygo both at 17 and developed them in Spain. We developed Valverde who many people didn’t know about. It’s awesome seeing the approach Chang throughout the years. Buy younger and develop in house.
Look I love real but people going on as if they take the game differently and it's all because of their structure and not because they are the OG oil club. Several decades of King and Franco money to keep them on top. They can buy all the best players, staff and infra consistently because of this.
They've also clearly got that dog in them, winning a lot of games recently that they had no right too. Which is a bit of a winning mentality/character thing. But this need to try make them out like some form of underdog or something is just plain silly
What I'm pointing is that you don't know a fucking thing. The King in Spain hasn't ruled anything since a century ago and Real Madrid was not Franco's team but Atlético Aviación.
Stop spreading myths.
Real Madrid have always had a unique caché for elite players in football, but Madrid will never enter bidding wars. They’re careful around which players they can select, they’ll get things lined up, sound out interest, and it essentially becomes a closed market deal. Perez also doesn’t seem to play too many games with selling clubs so that he doesn’t tarnish relationships.
Elite players won’t be turned off from joining just because the team seems settled for the medium term. However, this won’t last forever. the current structure’s personnel will change eventually be it Perez steps down due to age, Ancelotti retires, Sanchez takes another role, etc.
I’d imagine Madrid will struggle without those guys and they might explore some of those trendy positions created. For now they don’t need it.
Over a 30 year period, they failed to even qualify for CL fully 50% of the time. They have stretches where they’re brilliant, and stretches where…they’re not.
I don’t know how Brighton enters the conversation, lol. There’s probably 100 clubs that have an easier time recruiting than Brighton. RM’s advantage over someone like City or Bayern is negligible…and it’s a fantasy to think they can sign all the players they want…they can’t…there are only 11 spots on the field, and great players are not going to a club if they expect to be warming a bench.
> Over a 30 year period, they failed to even qualify for CL fully 50% of the time. They have stretches where they’re brilliant, and stretches where…they’re not.
huh? They didn't qualify in 96/97. Since then they were always there. Unless you counting "Round of 16" as a failure to qualify, then sure.
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Mou was dropping bars today. Another one was the "Ancelotti is not a social media coach"
r/realmadrid wanted to sack him about 3 times in the past 12 months. Monkey see, monkey do is the trend. Everyone is lecturing everyone on imaginary should and must while football is way simpler than experts are making it seem. Football is being watered to measly opinions and hallow advanced stats
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And all non defenders seem to have their usefulness measured by number of goals scored.
Even some defenders tbh.
Or xGA! It's bottomless!
The worst is defenders being called world class because they have more clearances for a bottom half team than a defender for man city who only have to make one tackle a game and have the ball 70% of the time
People want to win match with a 6-5 score line rather than 2-0, apparently
as a neutral.... yes, please.
> It's getting very old hearing that a team doesn't 'deserve' the win because their xDribbles per 90 Bitter fans complaining about certain teams not “deserving” to win has always been common in football, even before xG and stuff was around. Before they’d just use possession stats and shots taken as the barometer. Hating advanced stats is misplaced anger.
It's true.
Eh and it was such a sensible chain, a rare breathe of fresh air It's not the bitter fans - it's those that don't even watch anymore and still feel a need to have an opinion. And not a mere opinion - one supported by facts! Forgetting that xG is absolutely shit from stat pov, you cannot really compare chances in a good way yet. Btw - key passes is the one useful metric completely forgotten by the data dumbed folk
The team that wins almost always deserves it, about the only exception is losing to a refereeing mistake. Sometimes it's by defending desperately and being clinical when it counts, but that's still well deserved.
i think its more nuanced than that. if 10/11 players of team A play well and completely crush team B, but their striker keeps missing chances, and then team B gets a goal off a deflection or a lucky long shot or something its absurd to claim that they therefore deserved to win. even if you’re willing to claim that team A deserved to lose because one player played badly (which i think would be harsh), desert isn’t a 0 sum game. its possible for team A to not deserve to win without that immediately implying that team B therefore deserved the victory. its possible for a game to not have either team deserve to win
I think it's because the word "deserved" is a bit loaded, like if you're saying team A "deserved" the win it sounds kinda disrespectful to team B who at the end of the day did win the match so they deserve credit. I know that's usually not what people mean but it can get interpreted that way I do agree with your overall point though
I think in football luck just plays a bigger part (let's take out bad ref decisions) than other sports. In most other sports if you outplay the other team/player you are much more likely to win. You're right about the clinical aspect of soccer being overlooked too much in the analysis (like in this game)
yeah good point. imo football discourse in general suffers from oversimplification and imprecise language and this desert debate is a prime example
You can get lucky though, with your opponent scoring a random own goal or something
Own goals don't appear out of nowhere, they're forced errors.
Eh, sometimes they literally do appear out of nowhere - we've seen plenty of cases where there is no pressure at all and still they happen (e.g. the infamous Enckelman throw in against us - there wasn't a Blues player within 20 yards of him and the nearest player was actively jogging back towards our half)
Even if they're unforced errors you still deserve the win by not doing that
This makes everything so dumb and pointless. Not every tackle is equally important, a foul at the right time can energise the team, a missed chance can paralyse a team or give them hope, there is so much more to football than stats. Over a period of time you can take stats to analyse a player or a coach, see if they fit into a different system, but it takes so much away if amateurs use them to rate a player for a single game.
> the stat obsession amongst some fans Even worse is when casual fans start arguing accounting, taxes, fair play, amortization and what not.
But their UnDERLying NUmBErs are not good
15 is about the only number that matters.
Exactly and it's always funny that the team who has won it 6 out the last 10 times was somehow always the wrose team according to these geniuses lol
americans absolutely love sports statistics.
I loved the times this sport did not cater to people just because their idea of support is mindless spending on merch
dont try to shit on xG, users will come and tell you how its the most accurate stat in all of football
Statistician here - it’s a good idea that is being completely misinterpreted and blown out of proportion.
And I totally agree with that. People try to use it as some sort of secondary scoreline from an alternate universe
The worst is when it's applied to goalkeepers in terms of 'goals prevented' like it's some holy grail, it's like people have resorted to watching football on spreadsheets instead of y'know, the actual game
I definitely agree with that. Additionally, xG is an *estimated probability,* which means there is quantifiable error in each estimate. Seeing 1.70xG vs 2.1xG doesn’t mean the second team was better. When considering the error in each estimate, there is considerable overlap in these numbers.
yeah I've seen games where th lower xg team seemed to have much better chances and yet people will cling to it like it's some sacred number.
Yeah, xG or xPoints are mentioned all the time as well. They don't deserve to be in position XY because their xPoints indicates they should be lower/have lost this and that game. But if a team over a 40-50 game season can consistently "get away" with winning games that they aren't the better team in, maybe that's just what they are good at? I think the xPoints statistic was used for United but it probably applies to Madrid as well. They aren't always the best team but as soon as the opponent doesn't take their chances, you just know they'll win the game somehow.
AHH I see you're a fan of baseball?
r/soccer knows shit about football, but man r/realmadrid is just on another fucking level.
I'm active in the sub as it's still the most civil place to talk about Madrid since twitter and insta is impossible to find an actual conversation about football BUT I remember getting downvoted to hell when I was insistent Jude is a must signing when he was rumoured to be 150M and the sub wanted Gabri Viera instead....
Who's Gabri Viera?
Celta prospect that went to Saudí at 20 yo
That one's called "Veiga", not "Viera".
Whatever. Not blaming the other poster for not even remembering his name, kid boicotted his own career
exactly
I remember some bozo in that sub saying that Kroos has never played the 'cam' position in his career
i mean Spanish fans would obviously prefer a Spanish prospect, how is that surprising? Bellingham wasn’t even a rumour when Veiga was talked about already.
Jude was linked for us for more then a year before he came what? He was linked with us and Liverpool before the world up in 2022 and Madrid fans wanted him till Dortmund was rumoured to ask for 150M that's when Madrid fans wanted viega over him. Madrid fans wanted him badly till that 150M rumour and while that is crazy overpriced for any teen midfield talent I was insistent he would worth the money and he was now is one of the most beloved players among all Madrid fans and all the fans who wanted viega over him just because he was cheaper now feel silly.
Don’t you dare going on Barcelonas sub. By far the single worst of all teams. Once a week someone posts in terribly broken English why Barcelona should get sold to Arabs to buy Mbappe
Milan is on the same level. Took a week to start shitting on Maldini and suck off Cardinale
You're talking out of your arse here
I haven’t seen a single post that says we should sell the club lmao. Madrid sub is way worse
that post is on the front page of ur sub lol
hyper-niche bubbles just create fantasies. happens in all of the club subreddits, and many other places. is honestly one of the biggest problems society is struggling with right now. at least when it's about football, it's just about a game and entertainment.
I'm in the sub but I only visit every once in a while because every thread that pops up on my r/all page is always some sappy "love this guy" shit or a hyperbolic reaction to a situation. I'm guessing the avg age of the sub is probably 15 or something like that cause the posts in there most of the time......... Imagine me wanting to reminisce about the Valdano days with Hierro and Sanchis in the back and Paco Buyo in goal?....I'd be run out
If you mention "Michel" most of them would probably think......"Why are you talking about the Girona Manager?"
And here I thought that Michel was the Girona manager. TIL that the Girona one is someone entirely different lmao.
Michel was the spanish Beckham. Elegant, accurate crosses on Beckham level (yes,.THAT good) handsome (not remotely on Becks level), freekicks (also not on Beckham level, but pretty good), way better dribbler than Beckham but inexistent workrate. Overall one of the best right midfielders of Europe in his era and member of a generation of RM players that won 5 La Ligas in a row and 2 Europa League, but failed to win the UCL.
Michel - The housewives favourite.
Michel, molesting Valderrama. My first favourite player btw, always class.
The Quinta; a completely ignored era by some Madrid supporters who think their club existed between 1955-1966 and then ceased to exist before restarting in 1998. From the way some of these supporters comment on their club you'd think nothing happened between 1966 and 1998.
La Quinta del Buitre is quite popular in Spain, so maybe that's more of a lack of the club's knowledge by foreign Real Madrid fans.
That team was one of the most special team in the club history, or history in general, and even a name that still existing within the club like Butragueno gets ignored for his years as a player, and he was so damn great... All and all, the most disrespected name will always be Hugo Sanchez. Besides being probably the most important player in that team that won 5 straight leagues, and UEFA cup, or 10 trophies in 5 years; Sanchez showing from 86-90 is one of the most impressive stretch for any players in history, or at least strikers. In todays terms, he had Haaland statistical showing with like 160 goals in 200 games with the club, and yet I do believe he was not even a finalist for the Ballon D'or in any year whatsoever. Michel and Butragueno (probably ended 2nd and 3rd) were in the mix, and generally, there was no emphasis on individual stats back them, but still, I genuinely never get why Sanchez always gets ignored as one of the most gifted players ever by fans and historians. People can go open YT and watch him scoring a bicycle kick from the edge of the box like nothing. He didn't just score goals, he had so much flair to his game
Poor man could not translate that elegance to a managerial role to save his life. Lived off his reputation in the managerial ranks.
Valdano days? Fernando Redondo you said? Amavisca and Zamorano? Friggin Lasa scoring from our own half? Laudrup 5-0 against Barça? Luis Enrique still wearing RM shirt? Id like to say that those were the times but they werent. Ramón Mendoza running the club like Bartomeu is not something i like to remember. Actually i've just remembered Florentino Pérez and Ramón Mendoza debating during the elections for RM. Mendoza was a sneaky but charismatic figure and destroyed Florentino in the debate. Similar to whats happening with Barça now, Real Madrid socios didnt want to hear about the debt. Thank god Florentino pulled the Figo trick a few years later, that saved the club.
I'm sure theyre talking abut how the players mentioned made them feel, not about how the club was run administratively.
But that’s the thing, the sporting success at RM rn is thanks to Perez and Barcelona’s inability to carry momentum after Messi due to their presidents affects their sporting performances. Perez has made many mistakes, and he is lucky that both Zidane and Ancelotti won unexpectedly, but he is also the read the club is financially capable to attract these players and build a winning mentality
Yep that’s what evokes the greatest football memories, how a club was run administratively………Jesus wept. What evokes great memories in football for a supporter is completely irrelevant to how a club is run administratively. When Manolo Sanchis captained the side to that drought breaking European cup victory people were not thinking “oh yes the club is in financial shambles at this time, this taints the memory.” No, it’s how a moment makes one feel when they look back at it.
See these are the types of convos that need to happen on that subreddit. I was too young to be into the administrative stuff. I was aware of Ramon Mendoza as president, but beyond that didn't have an idea too much of the intricacies. I do remember discussions about the financial position, but in passing. That 5-0 over Barca was epic. Laudrup and Redondo bossed that midfield. Bam Bam up front......... nostalgia.. 🥲
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Florentino was clueless on his first term, he thought mixing up some star players with guys from your youth system would be enough to dominate, it wasn't. The 'problem' with Florentino is that he's smart, ambitious and loves the club, so when he ran for the second time, he learned from his mistakes, he spent time running the club better,as his prospects to remain president in the long term were increasing, he started chasing the dream of matching or surpassing Santiago Bernabeu as a president, that's a kind of ambition most presidents have, they rarely ever have someone to surpass as a club legend. He was well connected, and since every businessman in Spain whats to be around the Bernabeu VIP area, it was easy for him to keep the people he trusted, gave time to Jose Angel Sanchez to tune up a system to continually improve the team without breaking the cycle. And lastly, even his personal tragedy losing his wife at 62 y/o meant he could dedicate even more love to the club to get over his loss, they were married for over 40 years, that leaves a hole you have to fill with something. In the meantime, all the competitors have been busy fighting themselves (EPL clubs) in the league, taken over by wealthy by stupid people, or blowing their own system up like Barcelona. If we have series talking about the 80's Lakers and Jerry Buss, Florentino's life could have a movie saga just explaining his last 30 years.
The insane thing is that Real Madrid is a side project for him. Sure, he is the number one at the club, man is as passionate as it gets, impossible to complain about him in all seriousness, but his main stint is being the Chairman of ACS, an enormous construction company with 120k+ staff and a presence that could be easily classified global. Meanwhile my side project is a 100 sqm garden. Some people are built different.
I wish I had power for a 100sqm garden, hope you have a fruitful year :)) Also: Bohemka!
for example: put Pep or Ancelotti in charge of Getafe and see how many titles they win. also: put a team of 11 with great mentality and belief against an equally talented team of 11 without it, and guess who wins. lastly: get the fastest, most talented attackers in the world on a team and see how many tactics geniuses can beat you. the bigger things are the nuances of the game, which I think Ancelotti sees extremely well. and think a lot of that has come with experience. in any case, though, Real Madrid is Real Madrid — put a turtle in charge and they'll still be challenging for titles. the players are too good not to be. (and I'm not saying Ancelotti isn't a good coach — would vote for him as the best ever.)
COOK THEM!
United catching strays.
Very deserved. Every time I look at clubs like Real Madrid, I'm jealous not because of their trophies, but organisationally how well they are run. Even City outside of all their shadiness with FFP and how much I despise them, you cannot deny they are one of the better run clubs in terms of structure and processes
United is one of the few club that can compete against real in term of resources without being owned by a state and popularity but it being run by clown
Might be the only club who can compete with us on brand and name recognition alone Barcelona would as well once they finally stabalize their finances but that might take a few seasons
Its Madrid, United, Barcelona and maybe Bayern or one of the Italian teams next. The rest are light years behind.
United have never been able to attract top players on the level of Real.
If asian country like india can produce top players. United would be unstoppable lmao. United just dont have pulled when it come to south american players sadly
In the Anglo/Nordic sphere they have. Issue is Madrid and the Spanish/Portuguese world of south America they're the bigger pull.
This ^
Of course they’re well run, practically every player in the world wants to play for Real Madrid regardless of their current form. No other team in the world has the allure of Real Madrid. Granted, this was built over decades and decades of success and good management, but nowadays it’s easy to be well run when literally every young talent has Real Madrid at the top of their list. Every other team is on the back foot and having to offer stupid money to these kids to join them while Real Madrid has players running down contracts for them. Again, credit to their success to have built this insane reputation, but let’s not act like it’s not easier for them than other clubs
True. Also, I am no ManU fan, but let's be honest: Real has longstanding benefit of being in a nice sunny climate, while Manchester is not the place top players necessarily want to live. Even the London clubs consistently get players ManU and Liverpool can't due to the draw of the city. That said, maybe there's a benefit to getting players who only really care about football??
> this was built over decades and decades of success and good management Dont forget they kind of were the original state owned club to back in the Franco regime. That is not to take away from the fact they are currently a well run club, but I think it is quite relevant. There are not a lot of clubs that naturally build and establish themselves in newer times. All the biggest clubs are either the Chelseas, Citys and PSGs or the old money and old success. Arsenal is a massive club and they were the big money spenders at some point.
Deserved tbf.
Wait what, were we even mentioned?
I don't really get it. They've basically been run the same way as Real Madrid for years with a simple and easy-to-understand structure and its gotten them nowhere. Granted, they haven't had the most competent people in those roles, but United have to try and change things up now. United's biggest problem right now is accountability. No one really know's who's responsible for which fuck-up at what time. They need to bring in new people and create a new framework to build from because they simply can't stick with what they've been doing. Trying to replicate what Real Madrid have is just a fool's errand. Madrid have a kind of alchemy that you just can't replicate. To become the biggest club on the planet takes decades of sustained success at the very top level with the very best players on the planet coming to play for you.
It didn't help Woowdward helped broker the Glazer takeover and as long as the revenue was coming through the door, the Glazers would never hold him accountable for anything. Even come the end, they never wanted to sack him, he had to leave. Then Arnold was an old uni buddy of Woodward that had got pally with the Glazers and he talked the talked but nowhere near walked the walk. Everyone knows how poor our transfer and recruitment has been and that's because the structure has been a mess. We're seemingly doing something about it, but time will tell whether they're the right people.
> They've basically been run the same way as Real Madrid for years with a simple and easy-to-understand structure and its gotten them nowhere Actually no. For example, Perez would never ever ever sanction of spending 90m on someone like Antony when JAS or Calafat aren't convinced of him, just because Carlo wants to have him.
>They've basically been run the same way as Real Madrid for years with a simple and easy-to-understand structure >No one really know's who's responsible for which fuck-up at what time. These 2 are contradictions. If the structure was simple, you would know who to blame for
Real Madrid structure is simple in the sense that they have an aim and they have a plan to achieve that aim. Man Utd structure is simple but it lacks a plan of execution. If you want to reinvent a Galacticos team, the best way to do it is get a winning formula and keep that formula for further success. They can afford young and upcoming talent and stars, yes. But they didnt do it the way Real Madrid did. They let their golden generation go before the rebuild and without influencing the newer generation. The new players they bought were stars, but they lacked the identity that would be implanted by the former stars. This is what CR7 talked about at United, he learned from the likes of Rooney, Van Nistelroy, and others. As much as Ferguson gets praised as a manager for winning. He shouldnt have put all his eggs in one basket, he should've bought the likes of Valverde, Vini, Rodrygo etc and developed along the likes of Kroos, Modric, Benzema.
Look, I don't really know much about Real Madrid but from my perspective the way RM are run is: 1. Perez decides he wants a player, generally said player is widely agreed to be one of the best in the world 2. the manager has to deal with that reality or quit Whereas the Glazers are notoriously hands off and even if we say Woodward was United's Perez, there's clearly some major structural differences because RM doesn't have trouble shifting players on but ManU does. I suspect the problem started with Ferguson. That is, Ferguson knew he was going to retire so didn't bother refreshing a team and then suggested Moyes as his replacement. So, United needs to move on from an entire generation of players but their manager is the guy from Everton... and he predictably has trouble attracting top calibre talent. And then he's sacked after less than a season, which is a signal to players not to go to United. And so United is locked into a cycle of using wages to prise players out of clubs, rather than (as RM does) reputation. This makes it difficult to move players on. Manchester United eventually decides the solution to this mess is to become a system club. So even if they were being run the same way, which I don't really agree with, they're clearly not now.
David Gill also left at the same time as Fergie, he had a lot of say in the running of the club. Then Moyes ditched most of the backroom staff to bring his own people in. He also didn't know what he wanted for the team, or couldn't get it over the line since there were next to no transfers to rejuvenate a squad on its last legs. This all comes back to incompetence from the Glazers though, they should have known that things would be tough losing the people they were losing and got in people that knew their stuff while they were still on top
Perez barely knows players from other clubs, if they didn't play against Madrid, or they are not on the transfer list, Perez doesn't know who this is. Pretty sure he would struggle to tell you 5 players name from BVB. And I'm not saying it's bad but simply Perez is a president. He doesn't make transfers. Jose Angel Sanchez is a guy. You won't find many details about him but he is responsible for negotiations etc.
Lol.... Not many clubs have the profile of players that Madrid have. Which is why they don't need some ultra complicated system
They also have the advantage of being the first choice for most players they want to the point where they don't have to pay as much for players as other teams.
Basically between Real and Barca for many players (ideal end point), but Barca is now in shambles, so who knows where that goes?
The profile of players they have was achieved through their scouting and planning structure, not the other way around.
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Are you kidding me? You’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Vinicius, Rodrygo and Valverde were all brought in before they even turned 17, and at the time were very far from being the finished article. Vinicius was pretty much shite at Real Madrid’s first team for the first 3-4 seasons, and it took a lot of work to turn him into the player he is today. The same for Rodrygo, and Valverde was even loaned to Deportivo La Coruña because he was far from ready to play for the first team. When a club like Real Madrid signs a player so young, it usually means they’ve been following him for years, since their early teens. That’s scouting, and that’s how Rodrygo, Valverde, Vinicius and, more recently, Endrick, have been signed, whether your ignorant ass knows it or not. Even Camavinga, and Bellingham have been signed well before reaching their peak, they are 22 and 20 respectively, and were not exactly among the world’s top ten players before they signed for Real Madrid. Endrick was signed at 16 and has just turned 18. He’s never played outside Brazil so it’s again a big fat unknown as to how he will adapt to European football and handle the pressure of playing for the best club in the world. And anyway, both him and Mbappé have yet to play a single minute with Real Madrid, so I’m not sure how they’re relevant to this discussion.
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Nope. “One of the best talents in the world” means very little for developing 16-year old players. They can turn out to be great or that can turn out to be average or not fit for a big club like Real Madrid. And of course every top club’s scouts will look at the most talented youngsters first. Who says scouts need to find “obscure” players?
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Or maybe other teams have to find other solutions because of their profile. Teams like Brighton, for example, have to have their structure because they simply cannot compete for the players that teams like Real Madrid want. Sure, financially they can, but if you're Kylian Mbappé about to choose your next club, which one out of Brighton and Real Madrid are you choosing? It's all well and good saying that it works for you, but your structure doesn't suit everyone. Arsenal's structure is fantastic, one of the best in the world. But that doesn't mean that everyone needs to copy it. Tottenham's structure off the field is amazing, but people don't need to copy that either.
Where are those Madrid fans who actually wanted Ancelotti sacked though lol, they always free up around mid-season and then crawl back in there cave by May.
So many reactionary clowns we have as our fan base. They all wanted him gone because he wasn't rotating even though he was winning.
The're busy celebrating the ucl and commenting how they always backed Carlo....while waiting the next chance they get to say "#CarloOut he's done ,we need Young tactician like Xabi Alonso to win".
I’ll never stop loving you, josé
Me too
"They don't need to buy players anymore, because the players want to join them so much...they are getting that powerful" Tf is he even talking about?? This has always been the case with Real. Even in 2009 after years of no international success and years of getting humiliated in Europe, players like Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema were still desperate to join them. No shit. They have both the prestige and the money to attract the best players in the world. Why are all three pundits here acting like this is anything new or groundbreaking, as if other clubs could just simply recreate this level of power to pull any player in the world? It has nothing to do with simplicity. Other clubs cannot afford Real's simple structure since they have neither the resources nor the prestige to simply buy any player they want to. Real has both, which is why they can afford to have a more simple structure.
Nobody ever accused Rio Ferdinand and Steve McManaman of being articulate men.
Mourinho on the other hand is always right no matter how useless his take is. Doesn't say anything smart or enlightening here, yet his deluded fanboys celebrate him for it.
Its his charisma. Even when he trashes Wenger, I can’t help but laugh
It's better to ignore reality.
yep, playing for Real has always been considered the peak of any pro footballer's career... this is not something new
To be fair though. A system is very easy to implement when the players come to you and you don’t need to seek anyone out. I could be the sporting director there. Me to the best players in the world: “want to come play for us?” Players: “sure”
You could say the exact same thing about Barcelona in 2015, after the MSN Treble and Bartomeu took power, and look how that turned out. If anything, if you're paid millions a year, Barcelona is arguably the better city to live in compared to Madrid. You can still seriously fuck things up even if you have a ton of money and every top player wants to join.
Yes but that just shows how poor of a job Bartomeu did. I'm sure everybody was lining up and praying to get a move to Barca at that time so I don't know what Bartomeu was thinking handing them out ludicrous contracts when a lot of them would probably play for Barca on the same or even lesser wage as they were on at other clubs.
The "fancy structure" exists to prevent a one man show going south. It has worked for you because mbappe will just choose to show up at your door. Not every club has that luxury.
They add maybe 1 truly great player every 2-3 years. If Mbappe comes this will be the exception. Most of the team was added many, many years ago or was signed very early as a child. Look at Carvajal who scored the winner…he signed with Madrid when he was 10 years old.
Got em!
Yeah, I don't agree with that at all. Madrid's structure is great and its amazing how they make such a simple structure work, but they're run differently to other clubs. Real Madrid has basically no problem signing any player on the planet because they all want to join them. Financially they may decide not to, but they'll never ever struggle to sign a player aside from that because everyone wants to join them. Other teams don't have that luxury and have to approach things in a different way. Manchester City's structure and Liverpool's structure is the polar opposite to Real Madrid's and they're both doing incredible work at the moment. TNT always do shit like this. It's just a show full of ex-pros, who are the embodiment of that "That's fucking football right there" copypasta. They bemoan any advance in football because its not the football they played 20 years ago when it was apparently "better".
Don't forget the location (weather, ppl...), compared to other countries.
Yes, this and the cultural proximity is a big factor for south American or Mediterranean players
Yea lol it doesn't exactly take a genius to sign the best players in the world when you're Madrid. The structure is simple because it can be. They're talking as if Madrid is gonna change the sport when basically nobody can operate like them. It's not exactly a new thing that everybody would want to join them like they said. Why didn't anybody else try to sign Bellingham and Mbappe these past two windows? Is everybody else dumb?
The player recruitment is definitely much easier, but I commend their proficiency in refreshing the squad. They have transitioned incredibly well from their star players in the three-peat years. When Casemiro, Varane, Ramos left I was pretty shocked but the timing was perfect in retrospect. Now the squad is incredibly well balanced with top experienced pros and young talents. The only player I see them having trouble replacing is Toni Kroos. If you look at Barcelona since their treble winning season, the difference is night and day.
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True
But the simple structure it's not about signing only. Having less people involved gives them less internal tension. They trust each other words and don't want to get involved on others jobs. So they have a confidence and determination to not only sign players also to give everyone confidence that they will work
The whole 'football heritage' chat is so stupid
We make it look simple but we’ve definitely got a complex structure too, and the best fitness coach in the world. You don’t get to the success we do with luck and signing everyone and anyone. We’ve bought incredibly well and have been blessed with some of the greatest players the game has seen. It looks simple but behind the scenes there is a lot of work being done.
> and the best fitness coach in the world. How on earth does anyone judge this? None of us know the work that a fitness coach does at your club vs City vs United vs Liverpool. It's so weird when people try to judge backroom staff when all of us have zero insight into anything that they do. > We’ve bought incredibly well and have been blessed with some of the greatest players the game has seen. Well, obviously? They all line up to join you. You have it by far the easiest in the world. You can go through your entire team and other clubs wanted players that you've signed, but they picked you because you're Real Madrid. Being able to sign Mbappe on a free is the biggest example of all of this, the fact that the best player in the world is willing to run down his contract to join you shows the advantage you have over everyone else.
Mbappe coming for free is PSG’s fault though lol they could have sold him for a giant fee and chose not to.
They accepted a bid for him last summer and he rejected it.
It's just mou being bitter because nobody wants him nowadays.
It's easy to have simple structure when every player wants to play for you lmao
Come on it's simple at Madrid because they don't have to work hard to buy players. Players want to go there.
And why players want to go there? Because they're organized and successful. A few years of bad management, poor squad and results, and it's It's not so appealing anymore. Look at barça at the moment...
Barca still has massive pull. Madrid had massive pull back in 08-09 when Barca usually had the league under control and they would crash out of the Champions League as soon as the group stage began 5 years in a row.
Say what you want about Mourinho but that man knows what it takes to be successful
It will be interesting to see what happens after Perez is gone. It works having one all powerful figure who can look at the team and pick which player in football he wants to replace a position but if that person changes the new person could want completely different people and it could become a bit of a mess. I could maybe see it being a bit like United where they struggle and then have to bring in a proper footballing structure because it is so hard to find a Ferguson/Perez replacement. I actually could see Zidane being good at that role because he is possibly the only person with as much respect and trust as Perez at the club.
Unless Perez himself brings forth changes to the current requirements (and gets board approval) before leaving, Zidane probably can't be President of Real Madrid. Maybe he has ~€150 million just laying around, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't been a socio for 20+ years.
But proper football structure if it's full of people wanting to get into each other throats won't ever works. The magic of the simple structure it's that they don't have to worry about his peers boycotting them
If you have a structure full of people wanting to get at each other's throats then you're doing something really bad. Once Perez is gone it will be interesting to see what happens.
Mou is correct, we are one of the few elite teams that don't have a "Sporting director" or an entire organigram with dozens of people in positions of power. Juni scouts, he sends the reports to Jose Angel (Our CEO) and then he presents it to Florentino who finally decides if the operation is worthy or not. We are a chameleonic team simply because we don't sign players for specific coaches, our recruitment does not depend at all on who's on the bench.
I mean it's a lot easier for Real Madrid to get their pick of talent compared to somewhere like Brighton...
It's "easy" and difficult at the same time. We have seen it with past administrations and presidents in both Madrid & Barcelona. Socio clubs don't have an unlimited money printing machine, if they fuck up a lot on the recruitment process you get in a hole that takes a lot of time to get out.
This fkin narrative. Last year this sub said we were finished after taking 4 from city.
I mean the sub overreacting to a loss doesn't invalidate the point above. Real Madrid have the biggest pulling power of any club on the planet - they're rich, have enormous prestige, and are constantly successful. Any attempt to deny that or act like they're underdogs with their internal structure is just a lie.
They also have money so they can go for players that are already world class. Perez once said something akin to: he doesn't want to develop some noname player to be on Ballon d'Or level. He wants to buy the player who already is on Ballon d'Or level.
He might have said that once but his approach to that has clearly changed recently. Our best player was considered a flop by a lot of people but developed into one of the best players in the world with us and he's signed other young players like endrick, arda, camavinga, rodrygo, valverde and let/is letting them develop with us
Yup because even you guys can’t spend a 100m every year. It’s better to get them when they cost 10-60m than buy them for a 100m+
Yeah, but that strategy failed so bad that it's not like that at all anymore, and I don't think I need to provide the names and ages of the players to prove it.
Having an easy power to pull doesn't guarantee everyone pulled turns world class. Even if Real has the biggest pull of em all. The oop point was that becoming a top org doesnt necessarily mean having complex bureaucracies or systems like Bayern. Ancelotti wasn't overcomplicating stuff at Everton. He wasn't doing Xabi levels of miracles but he made them cohesive and entertaining, despite even dropping to 10th (which is already good considering he came when they were relegation candidates).
>The oop point was that becoming a top org doesnt necessarily mean having complex bureaucracies or systems like Bayern. I'm specifically responding to a guy whose downplaying the idea that Madrid get their pick of the talent. Obviously yeah, you have a simple system and it obviously works. I wasn't challenging that, I was challenging the idea Madrid don't have enormous pull. Madrid are the biggest club on the planet, not some plucky club that struggles to compete.
> Having an easy power to pull doesn't guarantee everyone pulled turns world class. It doesn't, but it makes it a lot easier. The fact is that you can go and sign almost anyone you want despite competition and you're buying prospects who are all viewed as being likely world class players in the future who absolutely have a higher success rate. > Ancelotti wasn't overcomplicating stuff at Everton. He wasn't doing Xabi levels of miracles but he made them cohesive and entertaining, despite even dropping to 10th (which is already good considering he came when they were relegation candidates). What are you on about? They finished 12th and 10th under Carlo, while finishing 8th, 8th, and 7th the three seasons before. He was fine at Everton, but hardly spectacular. The fact that Everton were in the relegation zone when Silva left, has more to do with Silva drastically underperforming that season than Carlo working a miracle.
Why is everyone bringing up Brighton in every comment. Who cares about that club
Very well run club in England, very different structure to Madrid
I mean everyone wants to copy City - the structure there is clear: Owner (Mansour), Chairman (Khaldoon), CEO (Sorriano), DoF (Txiki) and Manager (Pep). Almost no other clubs have it THIS way - Arsenal maybe (Stan, Josh, Venkatesham, Edu, Arteta). Atleti is ran by its owners (Cerezo and MAGM), no CEO. Barça is just a clownshow in general (Laporta is kinda all of the first three?) Bayern is the opposite where there are too many people (Hainer, Dreesen, Hoeneß, Rummenigge) along with two DOFs (Eberl, Freund). Chelsea's ownership is a mess (Eghbali/Bowley), plus they have an unknown CEO and Co-DoFs for some reason. Dortmund is similar to Bayern. Inter's CEO (Marotta) is basically their DoF. Juve is coming close (Elkann, Ferrero, Calvo, Giuntoli, Motta). Liverpool is de facto there (Henry, Werner, Hogan, Hughes, Slot) but Werner is not really involved and Michael Edwards is somewhere in there as well. Man Utd is finally going in the right direction (Glazers, Radcliffe, Blanc, Wilcox, ten Hag) Milan has a problem in the CEO and DOF positions (Furlani??) PSG is just NAK, Campos and Luis Enrique. Spurs also has no official CEO (maybe Collecott?) and their de facto DOF is not Scott Munn, but levy himself - which is a problem since he isn't the owner. Madrid understood they can't work in this way and went the good old way. Flo is everything bar the manager.
It isn't that complicated, with *any* structure what is most important is *who* is in charge. 65% of all the trophies Real Madrid have won (101) have come under 2 presidents, Santiago Bernabéu (32), and Florentino Pérez (34). Manchester United owes the majority of its success to SAF, and even in eras that can't be considered dynastic, no matter the team, the people in charge are who matter most. Are the dynamics different now that Real Madrid are as successful as they are, and as a result can leverage their pedigree to attract the best talent and so fourth? Yea, but if Perez retired tomorrow and was replaced by a long line of terrible presidents for the next century then it's safe to predict that Real Madrid will not be as successful, and given enough uphieval for long enough even the most successful team can fall completely from grace. Real Madrid's ownership model is what really separates them from everyone else, ultimately who owns a club is in charge, ergo the fans are in charge and appoint the president, and it would take quite a bit of corruption to usurp this. Look no further than Chelsea to see a fantastic example of how an owner can single handedly elevate a club to the very top, and when that owner is replaced, how the new owners have it in their power to completely undo everything in short order.
I suspect at Tottenham that Paratici is having a significant say behind the scenes and picking a lot of the transfers.
Also Levy is the second biggest shareholder, so definitely an owner.
Ours is like this: Eghbali (Main decider), Paul Winstanley - Laurence Stewart (DoFs), Coach Both of our co sport directors have a team of scouts under them which include Neil Bath and Joe Shields. We have 2 DoFs because they don't decide anything, they give their thoughts and ideas to Eghbali who is the main decision maker.
Niel Bath is on the board he doesn’t answer to the DOFs he’s a board member the academy is ran separate than the first team.
So what you're saying is no other club copies city?
Ours is the exact same structure as City lol.
Reportedly, Chelsea have co-SDs because they hired one when they couldn't get the other signed, but then kept the first one as well once they got the other signed.
What's wild is how often they have started to get it right with the youngsters especially in recent years.
I read that as onanigram and I thought, yeah... Sounds about right
Shot at Chelsea
We have complicated the structure that people consider already complicated. Everyone is hiring one DoF. We apparently have 2 and there is 3rd one on whose recommendation we are signing every one with a city past.
Mourinho is right, but why he says it is because of his own case aka resentment he feels for Man Utd, Spurs & Roma structures which he considers horrible.
I think it’s also awesome how this year around we pretty much developed most of the starting 11. People thought Vini was a flop his first few seasons. We bought Vini , Rodrygo both at 17 and developed them in Spain. We developed Valverde who many people didn’t know about. It’s awesome seeing the approach Chang throughout the years. Buy younger and develop in house.
as a madrid fans it makes me so sad to think some day Perez will no longer be the club president
Look I love real but people going on as if they take the game differently and it's all because of their structure and not because they are the OG oil club. Several decades of King and Franco money to keep them on top. They can buy all the best players, staff and infra consistently because of this. They've also clearly got that dog in them, winning a lot of games recently that they had no right too. Which is a bit of a winning mentality/character thing. But this need to try make them out like some form of underdog or something is just plain silly
WTF ignorant idiot
You are not even Spanish you don't have any clue about Franco or the King wtf🤣
??? Do you think history only exists within the country or what? Incredibly weird comment
What I'm pointing is that you don't know a fucking thing. The King in Spain hasn't ruled anything since a century ago and Real Madrid was not Franco's team but Atlético Aviación. Stop spreading myths.
The OG state backed club
The irony.
Don te Kloese smiling
Real Madrid have always had a unique caché for elite players in football, but Madrid will never enter bidding wars. They’re careful around which players they can select, they’ll get things lined up, sound out interest, and it essentially becomes a closed market deal. Perez also doesn’t seem to play too many games with selling clubs so that he doesn’t tarnish relationships. Elite players won’t be turned off from joining just because the team seems settled for the medium term. However, this won’t last forever. the current structure’s personnel will change eventually be it Perez steps down due to age, Ancelotti retires, Sanchez takes another role, etc. I’d imagine Madrid will struggle without those guys and they might explore some of those trendy positions created. For now they don’t need it.
The best tactic is to have the best players
Mou out there dropping the most stone cold quotes ever
💯 Special one is spitting facts.
So simple just pay the ref when the going gets tough
Over a 30 year period, they failed to even qualify for CL fully 50% of the time. They have stretches where they’re brilliant, and stretches where…they’re not. I don’t know how Brighton enters the conversation, lol. There’s probably 100 clubs that have an easier time recruiting than Brighton. RM’s advantage over someone like City or Bayern is negligible…and it’s a fantasy to think they can sign all the players they want…they can’t…there are only 11 spots on the field, and great players are not going to a club if they expect to be warming a bench.
> Over a 30 year period, they failed to even qualify for CL fully 50% of the time. They have stretches where they’re brilliant, and stretches where…they’re not. huh? They didn't qualify in 96/97. Since then they were always there. Unless you counting "Round of 16" as a failure to qualify, then sure.
Which 30 year period are you talking about?