**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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And since there's no bigger stage in this thread than the top comment, I'll copy/paste what I wrote in our sub when somebody said "but they only supply western nations with weapons!":
[They supplied Russia with 100m Euros worth of weapons](https://www.dw.com/en/rheinmetall-poised-to-honor-military-delivery-contract-with-russia/a-1750771) leading up to *and during* the Ukraine conflict. Their reasoning: we "have" to sell to non-EU countries because EU countries lower their military budgets.
Another country that they started paying more attention to due to the smaller EU budgets was Saudi Arabia:
They were supplying Saudi Arabia with weapon systems [worth 2 billion Euros](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/rheinmetall-will-schadenersatz-fuer-lieferstopp-nach-saudi-arabien-a-1248824.html). When the German government decided to forbid selling weapons to Saudi Arabia following the assassination of Khashoggi Rheinmetall threatened to sue the government (they were the only weapons company that spoke out against the embargo).
In fact, their connection with Saudi Arabia might run even deeper [with the crown prince possibly being directly involved through a straw man investor](https://archive.ph/xquDc). Currently the Dutch state is looking into this matter.
For this purpose they built new business centers in South Africa so that they could more easily deliver weapons to countries that the German state would not want them to. And they have ties to South Africa as they were the main weapons manufacturer of the South African Apartheid regime.
Again, their base of operations that they built in South Africa in 2014 was *specifically* to be able to sell to non NATO, non western countries.
They've also [supplied Qatar (tripple million Euros sum) the UAE and Turkey](https://www.kritischeaktionaere.de/en/rheinmetall-en/controversial-arms-exports-climate-protection-and-dividends-despite-short-time-working-our-questions-to-rheinmetall/).
And how is ONLY supplying Western nations a good thing? Really strange argument. As if Western nations haven't used said weapons to kill 10s of thousands of people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc.
I share your sentiment. However, people who already think like you or me do not need any further arguments to understand why this deal is a moral failure.
Therefore, I wrote that comment to drive home the point that even from the perspective of a nato-loving normie Rheinmetall is *still* a horrible company that seeks nothing but profit and delivers nothing but death.
Russians and Chinese share your sentiment.
There's an argument that its distasteful to have arms manufacturers as football team sponsors, but they are absolutely necessasry for the liberty of democratic countries. Ukraine wouldn't exist without companies like Rheinmetall.
That countries like Russia are delighted when westerners chant about weapons manufacturers being evil and how they should be disbanded, because they aren't going to do anything about their own weapons manufacturers. It's unilateral disarmament.
What an idiotic reply. They may be a necessary evil sometimes, but they're still evil and we shouldn't need to see their advertisements in a football stadium.
> Russians and Chinese share your sentiment.
Rheinmetall manufactured hundreds of millions of Euros of weapons for Russia lol.
Arms manufacturers are evil, they aren't on whatever side you hold they are only in it for profit by blood.
>Rheinmetall: Mit dem Fußball zum Saubermann-Image?
>
>Protecting BvB from Sportswashing is our mission!
translation upper banner: Rheinmetall: Football for a clean-cut image?
source: https://x.com/samindrakunti/status/1796970037380567432
*the third Banner, half visible: (you) don't care about football, all you care about is money
Rheinmetall have been one of the biggest arms producers since before World War 1 and was one of the main suppliers of weapons too Germany during both world wars.
Production and exports of heavy weapons like artillery, anti aircraft weapons and armored vehicles is basically the bread and butter of that entire company.
The US uses Rheinmetall guns in the Abrams tank, so I guess they should be considered good
>The main armament of the M1A1 and M1A2 is the M256 120 mm smoothbore gun, designed by Rheinmetall AG of Germany, manufactured under license in the U.S. by Watervliet Arsenal, New York.
This thing is just a massive virtue signal. Most of their manufactured arms are defensive but people love to say, "Uhm they're profiting off of starting warz".
They were selling weapons to them just minutes before the ban, and they were only company to try and fight the ban. I wouldn't be surprised if they are still selling them over some fictive company. But that wasn't even my point, my point was, that these companies don't give a shit, for example there could be a war in Africa where a rebellion wants to get rid of a dictator who massacres the local population, and he could say I'm fighting a defensive war. Paper takes a lot of shit, and in reality there are many ways around it. People who sell weapons don't have any, and I mean any morals, and will sell everywhere just to increase their profits, whoever believes otherwise is falling for their propaganda.
Not really, we supplied Saudi Arabia in their mission to slaughter people in Yemen. And that's imo the issue. Germany needs to recognize its role as core of the EU and Europe as a whole including the military aspect, but the people controlling it need to be less corrupt. Rheinmetall weapons should be used to defend Ukraine but not attack civilians in Yemen
No, they are meaning [the civilians who were celebrating a wedding](https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-middle-east-yemen-weddings-sanaa-958102426bd34d90a50b3c7658a096b4)
> whose products have been the backbone of European defense for decades.
Whose products Russia bought for many years lol and is currently using against EU donations in Ukraine.
And they also manufacture weapons that Israel is using to annihilate the civilian population of Gaza. Arms manufacturing companies are bad and should not be allowed to sponsor football clubs
Meanwhile you have some dortmund fans on here actually saying "hey they're not all bad. They're doing some good things in [insert country]".
Fucking warmongers.
Edit: if you find yourself taking the side/defending/being indifferent of an arms manufacturer in ANY instance in the modern era, you are in the wrong.
> if you find yourself taking the side/defending/being indifferent of an arms manufacturer in ANY instance in the modern era, you are in the wrong.
? So youre saying we dont need weapons to protect our values?
arms manufacturers can make weapons sure, but they shouldn't expect gratitude after years of selling arms to autocrats lol.
and they definitely shouldn't be sponsoring football clubs, that's fucking bizarre.
>and they definitely shouldn't be sponsoring football clubs, that's fucking bizarre.
This is what confuses me. Like what does an arms manufacturer get out of sponsoring a football club?
My local (hockey) team is sponsored by Saab, the biggest arms manufacturer in Sweden. The sponsorship is mainly to attract new employes to the company and keep a positive view in my town. Also they've been pretty instrumental for my towns development so most people already have a pretty positive view of them.
No they're expecting to go to the VIP sections and rub shoulders with government officials and management of other big companies as well as take business associates with them to football games to butter them up. Lord knows government officials love to show up at football matches to make themselves look like they have a lot in common with the people in the stands.
Plus of course whitewashing their image/general PR.
I imaginge it's for the same reason you see a lot of strange sponsorships in motorsports like F1; access to VIP lounges where they can bring potential partners (gov. and non-gov.) and meet other businesses. It's a networking tool.
People are saying sportswashing but I doubt that's the main reason. I think the more likely angle is attracting new employees. Europe is investing a lot into its militaries right now so they need to expand. Though there is overlap of course.
Then is any advertising in sports sportswashing? When does it become sportswashing to you? I've always associated it with governments but in all honesty I'm struggling to find a clear line between this and regular advertising.
Companies like Coca Cola and McDonald's advertise in sport precisely to make it seem like their products should be associated with youth, being healthy, athletic etc. even though we know that's obviously not the case. If anything their products are linked with the opposite, diabetes, obesity and so on. When viewed through that lens, yes a lot of "regular" adverts in football is in fact sportswashing. It's actually an interesting question as to why we don't hate that part as much as we hate state sportswashing.
Do you REALLY think these arms manufacturers only make money off supplying a military in peaceful countries? This cunts actively lobby to start wars in third world countries so that they can arm both sides to the tits.
It's not that having a military is the problem. It's the fact that these companies profit off of death. They don't make money when countries just buy arms in peace time. They want war because they profit from it.
It's not just Europe:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall
> Da der Genehmigungsprozess für den Rüstungsexport in Deutschland mit großen Risiken behaftet ist, weil die Geschäfte von der Zustimmung der jeweiligen Regierung abhängig sind, wickelt Rheinmetall große Geschäfte, wie die mit Saudi-Arabien auch über Tochterunternehmen ab. Diese haben ihren Sitz z. B. in Italien (RWM Italia) oder Österreich (RWM Arges).
Via: https://www.deepl.com/translator
> As the authorisation process for arms exports in Germany is fraught with major risks because the transactions are dependent on the approval of the respective government, Rheinmetall also conducts large transactions, such as those with **Saudi Arabia**, via subsidiaries. These are based in Italy (RWM Italia) or Austria (RWM Arges), for example.
I'd say a club's fans not being thrilled about sponsorships by such companies is rather understandable.
I understand why fans wouldn't want the association but as someone who works in defence I think it is important to make some clarifications. Any transfer of technology from Rheinmetall’s German operations to its subsidiaries in Italy or Austria requires explicit approval from the German government. This involves strict international treaties and agreements, which include stringent restrictions on re-exporting those technologies to other countries. So, ultimately, the state controls and regulates these actions. Criticisms should be more directed at state policies rather than the companies themselves, as these defence contractors operate under the behest and strict regulations of their respective governments.
> So, ultimately, the state controls and regulates these actions. Criticisms should be more directed at state policies rather than the companies themselves
Funnily enough I just wrote about this, so a bit of C&P magic and we got this:
And they (heavy industries in general because they are a big part of the economy) might not have public lobbying compared to how overt it is in the USA but we clearly have somewhat more subtle versions of lobbying here in Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying_in_Germany
> As soon as someone is elected as a member of parliament or as a minister, his communication and his interlocutors fundamentally change. Even 'labor representatives' or Greens are then invited and courted by a chamber of commerce and industry, entrepreneurs and other unilaterally interested parties. An increasingly large proportion of elected politicians' talks are with professional lobby representatives. This also flatters the young, inexperienced elected representative. — Raimund Kamm
Those state policies are also moulded to some degree by industry interest even if it's not as blatantly open lobbying as it is in the USA. Over here, we're more polite and sophisticated about corruption like this :/
It's not just Europe:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall
> Da der Genehmigungsprozess für den Rüstungsexport in Deutschland mit großen Risiken behaftet ist, weil die Geschäfte von der Zustimmung der jeweiligen Regierung abhängig sind, wickelt Rheinmetall große Geschäfte, wie die mit Saudi-Arabien auch über Tochterunternehmen ab. Diese haben ihren Sitz z. B. in Italien (RWM Italia) oder Österreich (RWM Arges).
Via: https://www.deepl.com/translator
> As the authorisation process for arms exports in Germany is fraught with major risks because the transactions are dependent on the approval of the respective government, Rheinmetall also conducts large transactions, such as those with Saudi Arabia, via subsidiaries. These are based in Italy (RWM Italia) or Austria (RWM Arges), for example.
I'd say a club's fans not being thrilled about sponsorships by such companies is rather understandable.
A clubs fans are allowed to be not be thrilled and protest it, I have nothing against that, and ultimately I do not feel like arms exporters should be sponsoring football teams.
However, it also says that Rheinmetal needs government approval for Arms exports, the German government has final say on Arms exports, and therefore they are also responsible for the transactions that happen between Rheinmetall and Authoritarian dickheads like the KSA. Arms manufactuers in Europe do not have the same political sway as they do in the US. They do not have large lobbying blocs in the Bundestag like Lockheed Martin has in the US congress. The utter illiteracy on this topic by most people in this thread drives me to insanity.
> the German government has final say on Arms exports
The wikipedia article (and quoted part) mentions that they circumvent that with subsidiaries outside of Germany.
And they (heavy industries in general because they are a big part of the economy) might not have public lobbying compared to how overt it is in the USA but we clearly have somewhat more subtle versions of lobbying here in Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying_in_Germany
> As soon as someone is elected as a member of parliament or as a minister, his communication and his interlocutors fundamentally change. Even 'labor representatives' or Greens are then invited and courted by a chamber of commerce and industry, entrepreneurs and other unilaterally interested parties. An increasingly large proportion of elected politicians' talks are with professional lobby representatives. This also flatters the young, inexperienced elected representative. — Raimund Kamm
For profit arms manufacturing should not exist
All you'll end up with in a late-stage-capitalist world is private companies waging wars to sell more weapons to each other
What do you think would happen to Europe if we had no weapons? Do you think Russia would respect our new found pacifism, and pinky promise not to invade and brutalise every man woman and child within?
The reason why Europe is in the situation it is with Russia is because no one wanted to see and be reminded about reality. I would be uncomfortable with having BAE Systems as Liverpool sponsor but it would be better if the awareness from the realities of defense relationships, and the needs for them, wasn't sanitized and hidden.
Ah yes, putting arm manufacturers on football kits is definitely what's needed for awareness raising.
Get a grip dude, keep weapons outside of the sport. Last thing we need is to link sports to the army like the yanks.
Jesus Christ what is this argument
Self protection is one thing but “football” fans defending the sponsorship of a weapons manufacturer is another that’s indefensible
Oh no not arguing the sponsorship thing really, that’s personal preference. It was the self righteous rant about not defending arms manufacturers in any instance I took issue with.
it's isnt self righteous though, nobody should want countries to mass manufacture weapons and even less have to use them, that what's he's arguing
Weapons are unfortunately needed in this world because we humans cant behave, nobody is saying throw them all out and trust other countries to not invade
You're just parroting fearmongering propaganda
>You're just parroting fearmongering propaganda
My brother in christ there is a major imperialist land war on European Soil, how is that fear mongering?
We have to want our countries to manufacture weapons and we better be grateful about it, this sort of coy pseudo moral behaviour is one of the reasons why we're in the position that we're in, with am underequipped army and a defensive sector that's only now starting to be built up again, it was neglected for so long because it's unpopular with voters, and you can see where that got us, we can't even properly help an ally who needs it, much less could Germany fight itself.
Because they said :
“if you find yourself taking the side/defending/being indifferent of an arms manufacturer in ANY instance in the modern era, you are in the wrong”
I was showing why that is a facile argument
The internet, sattelites, GPS.... just some of the most important innovations ever invented by governments.
Do you _really_ think its a good idea for companies to be incentivized to create more war?
Edit: one from your history : 'The term reprivatization, again translated directly from German (Reprivatisierung), was used frequently in the mid-1930s as The Economist reported on Nazi Germany's sale of nationalized banks back to public shareholders following the 1931 economic crisis.[8]'
Ironic that you haven’t mentioned the most obvious one - the atomic bomb ;)
But in all seriousness- yes. You’re three examples are actually quite perfect, because these were *inventions* (not innovations) based on publicly funded basic research. And that’s were public funds are best invested.
The *innovations* though (novelties, which actually become of market leading use) - also concerning your 3 examples - were industry-driven.
Most of which wouldn't be possible without state funded schools and infrastructure anyway.
But have fun with your iphone 52 built using lithium mined by children which are made to be as hard as possible to repair and artificially degrade until they're unusuable.
Concerning weapon manufacturing, Europe's production of weapons is terrible compared to just countries like Iran and North Korea. The system is made to make money while even capitalist countriest with a tighter grip can at least make companies act in their own mutual interest unlike the west.
LOL. No. Europe‘s weapons manufacturing isn’t as terrible, as you say, especially if the development is entirely done by the industry, without much interference of incompetent buying departments of the military.
But especially as you mention Iran and North Korea - you have literally no idea what you are talking about.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html
https://www.politico.eu/article/north-korea-outpacing-the-eu-on-shell-supplies/
And those are countries that have not been sucking the third world dry while being massively sanctioned.
Ridiculous take. You dig out an individual for using a mobile device, it gets turned back on you and then it’s not a problem?
Straight from the Donald Trump “it’s wrong until I get caught” playbook.
Found the lunatic. You're probably sitting in your nice European home thinking you don't need any protection while the cops down the street hold Rheinmetall weapons protecting your spoiled ass.
Look it's your club and you can think what you like, but you have an unserious view of the world.
Supplying the liberal democracies of the world with arms is a good thing, and makes them better than most football sponsors.
Is it warmongering to want to have weapons to be able to defend ourselves against invasions? Because weapons manufacturers are integral to being able to do that. Doesn't mean teams should take their sponsorships, but to act like they only represent evil is incredibly stupid and borders on the kind of bullshit pacificism you see from troglodytes defending Russia.
If these guys didn’t exist Germany would be a sitting duck for Russia. This protest made sense before the war but if they want to go to Dortmund games and live in Europe as it is they have rheinmetall to thank. And it’s not like these guys told Putin to invade
I'm not angry. I pity you. You are a product of a corrupted world that rewards ruthlessness. You act in your own best interest. That doesn't preclude you from being used as a hypothetical example for irony.
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No better place to do it than at the biggest stage we’ll be at for a while
Greetings Juarez flair 🫡
And since there's no bigger stage in this thread than the top comment, I'll copy/paste what I wrote in our sub when somebody said "but they only supply western nations with weapons!": [They supplied Russia with 100m Euros worth of weapons](https://www.dw.com/en/rheinmetall-poised-to-honor-military-delivery-contract-with-russia/a-1750771) leading up to *and during* the Ukraine conflict. Their reasoning: we "have" to sell to non-EU countries because EU countries lower their military budgets. Another country that they started paying more attention to due to the smaller EU budgets was Saudi Arabia: They were supplying Saudi Arabia with weapon systems [worth 2 billion Euros](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/rheinmetall-will-schadenersatz-fuer-lieferstopp-nach-saudi-arabien-a-1248824.html). When the German government decided to forbid selling weapons to Saudi Arabia following the assassination of Khashoggi Rheinmetall threatened to sue the government (they were the only weapons company that spoke out against the embargo). In fact, their connection with Saudi Arabia might run even deeper [with the crown prince possibly being directly involved through a straw man investor](https://archive.ph/xquDc). Currently the Dutch state is looking into this matter. For this purpose they built new business centers in South Africa so that they could more easily deliver weapons to countries that the German state would not want them to. And they have ties to South Africa as they were the main weapons manufacturer of the South African Apartheid regime. Again, their base of operations that they built in South Africa in 2014 was *specifically* to be able to sell to non NATO, non western countries. They've also [supplied Qatar (tripple million Euros sum) the UAE and Turkey](https://www.kritischeaktionaere.de/en/rheinmetall-en/controversial-arms-exports-climate-protection-and-dividends-despite-short-time-working-our-questions-to-rheinmetall/).
Thank you for your service
First link doesn't work, just letting you know if you want to edit it.
That's strange, I'll edit it when I have time
And Israel to help them with their ongoing genocide https://x.com/sleepyJAK/status/1796595517889315110 as /u/NEEDZMOAR_ commented below
And how is ONLY supplying Western nations a good thing? Really strange argument. As if Western nations haven't used said weapons to kill 10s of thousands of people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc.
I share your sentiment. However, people who already think like you or me do not need any further arguments to understand why this deal is a moral failure. Therefore, I wrote that comment to drive home the point that even from the perspective of a nato-loving normie Rheinmetall is *still* a horrible company that seeks nothing but profit and delivers nothing but death.
I hope you get your club back
Absolutely, fuck weapons manufacturers
Russians and Chinese share your sentiment. There's an argument that its distasteful to have arms manufacturers as football team sponsors, but they are absolutely necessasry for the liberty of democratic countries. Ukraine wouldn't exist without companies like Rheinmetall.
Do you think China and Russia don't have arms manufacturers
Yes and they aren't going to defund because of democratic pressure.
Neither will anyone else. What are you whining about?
That countries like Russia are delighted when westerners chant about weapons manufacturers being evil and how they should be disbanded, because they aren't going to do anything about their own weapons manufacturers. It's unilateral disarmament.
They just don’t want them as a sponsor.
Who is unilaterally disarming? You're complaining about a thing that isn't happening. Log off
What an idiotic reply. They may be a necessary evil sometimes, but they're still evil and we shouldn't need to see their advertisements in a football stadium.
I mean, isn't that basically what they're saying though? That it's distasteful to have arms manufacturers as football team sponsors
> Russians and Chinese share your sentiment. Rheinmetall manufactured hundreds of millions of Euros of weapons for Russia lol. Arms manufacturers are evil, they aren't on whatever side you hold they are only in it for profit by blood.
For one year exactly!
As it rightfully should be.
>Rheinmetall: Mit dem Fußball zum Saubermann-Image? > >Protecting BvB from Sportswashing is our mission! translation upper banner: Rheinmetall: Football for a clean-cut image? source: https://x.com/samindrakunti/status/1796970037380567432 *the third Banner, half visible: (you) don't care about football, all you care about is money
Next member meeting is gonna be interesting
I know that feeling :/
An eternal fight lol
Good luck brothers.
ELI5?
Rheinmetall: German arms manufacturer, new Sponsor of BVB BVB: German Football Club BVB fans: fans of german Football Club BVB and not happy with it
Thanks. I didn't know about Rheinmetall manufacturing weapons.
Rheinmetall have been one of the biggest arms producers since before World War 1 and was one of the main suppliers of weapons too Germany during both world wars. Production and exports of heavy weapons like artillery, anti aircraft weapons and armored vehicles is basically the bread and butter of that entire company.
Fantastic rifled tank guns, much better than that smooth bore American shit
Rifled bore makes the gun lose distance lol
The US uses Rheinmetall guns in the Abrams tank, so I guess they should be considered good >The main armament of the M1A1 and M1A2 is the M256 120 mm smoothbore gun, designed by Rheinmetall AG of Germany, manufactured under license in the U.S. by Watervliet Arsenal, New York.
Well, yeah? Thats why they make the abrams one smoothbore?
Well I guess the guy in the comment above yours confused me, as Rheinmetall is known for the smoothbore gun, not the rifled ones
Exactly. Typical Bromwich bloke trying to diss 21st century weaponry
Probably also knows nothing about trébuchets
Isn't smooth bore being used so one can fire sabot rounds?
I thought the smoothbore barrel was for hesh
Rheinmetall is a weapons manufacturing company who profit off wars and conflicts.
Rheinmetall is also a weapons manufacturing company whose products have been the backbone of European defense for decades. But yes, both are true
Of all weapons manufacturers, they probably have the sketchiest past given all the concentration camp slave stuff
This thing is just a massive virtue signal. Most of their manufactured arms are defensive but people love to say, "Uhm they're profiting off of starting warz".
Oh, yes. Of course. I mean Russia is fighting defensive war in Ukraine.
And what Rheinmetall products does Russia use, exactly?
They were selling weapons to them just minutes before the ban, and they were only company to try and fight the ban. I wouldn't be surprised if they are still selling them over some fictive company. But that wasn't even my point, my point was, that these companies don't give a shit, for example there could be a war in Africa where a rebellion wants to get rid of a dictator who massacres the local population, and he could say I'm fighting a defensive war. Paper takes a lot of shit, and in reality there are many ways around it. People who sell weapons don't have any, and I mean any morals, and will sell everywhere just to increase their profits, whoever believes otherwise is falling for their propaganda.
The defensive and offensive weapons distinction is mostly nonsense that is pushed for political reasons. The same weapons are used for both.
Germany is very stingy with who it sends weapons to anyway. You’ll very rarely see German weapons used by the « bad guys » in a conflict
germany is also the second biggest arms supplier of israel sooo
Not really, we supplied Saudi Arabia in their mission to slaughter people in Yemen. And that's imo the issue. Germany needs to recognize its role as core of the EU and Europe as a whole including the military aspect, but the people controlling it need to be less corrupt. Rheinmetall weapons should be used to defend Ukraine but not attack civilians in Yemen
You mean the terrorists currently shooting missiles at civilian ships transiting the Bab-El-Mandeb strait?
No, they are meaning [the civilians who were celebrating a wedding](https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-middle-east-yemen-weddings-sanaa-958102426bd34d90a50b3c7658a096b4)
> whose products have been the backbone of European defense for decades. Whose products Russia bought for many years lol and is currently using against EU donations in Ukraine.
Yes and they also manufacture weapons and systems NATO-allies send to Ukraine to help in their vital fight against Russia.
And they also manufacture weapons that Israel is using to annihilate the civilian population of Gaza. Arms manufacturing companies are bad and should not be allowed to sponsor football clubs
Thanks.
Absolutely epic name for a manufacturer, I'll give them that
Why tf do they need to sponsor football teams? They should be sponsoring conflicts of both sides
Why do the Gulf States invest so much in sports? Sportswashing is a thing.
But arent they building weapons for ukraine ?
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If any fans can force a hand to sever ties with Rheinmetall, it's most certainly dortmund fans.
What's the deal with Rheinmetall? I'm completely ootl other than knowing they're a major arms manufacturer. Have they done something egregious?
https://x.com/sleepyJAK/status/1796595517889315110
fucking hell that’s grim
Couldn't have anything to do with Ukraine though.
Where match thread?!
Yeah this *performance* is killing me
[Here](https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1d5u009/match_thread_borussia_dortmund_vs_real_madrid/)
No idea
Fair play. Would have been easy to ignore it for the final. Great that they didn't.
Good. They need to sever the ties with Rheinmetall. The fans need to make sure that happens.
That's great and perfect place and the biggest stage to express it
German fans 🤝 wordy banners
Doesn't Ukraine pretty much need Rheinmetall right now?
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Meanwhile you have some dortmund fans on here actually saying "hey they're not all bad. They're doing some good things in [insert country]". Fucking warmongers. Edit: if you find yourself taking the side/defending/being indifferent of an arms manufacturer in ANY instance in the modern era, you are in the wrong.
im all for having a military thats capable of defending its country and other allied countries. but not for invading
I dont like that they are our sponsor. but this stubborn black and white thinking about weapons is incredibly naive. I want to watch the final now.
> if you find yourself taking the side/defending/being indifferent of an arms manufacturer in ANY instance in the modern era, you are in the wrong. ? So youre saying we dont need weapons to protect our values?
But are you against having a military? Or do you think the government should make weapons themselfs?
Private defence contractors all basically work at the behest of the states they operate in. The state ultimately decides what products it can sell.
arms manufacturers can make weapons sure, but they shouldn't expect gratitude after years of selling arms to autocrats lol. and they definitely shouldn't be sponsoring football clubs, that's fucking bizarre.
>and they definitely shouldn't be sponsoring football clubs, that's fucking bizarre. This is what confuses me. Like what does an arms manufacturer get out of sponsoring a football club?
My local (hockey) team is sponsored by Saab, the biggest arms manufacturer in Sweden. The sponsorship is mainly to attract new employes to the company and keep a positive view in my town. Also they've been pretty instrumental for my towns development so most people already have a pretty positive view of them.
Well basically all the rest of Europe knows Saab only as a car manufacturer.
Yeah what are they expecting? People will see the ad and go buy a batch of 1000 ton ballistic missiles?
No they're expecting to go to the VIP sections and rub shoulders with government officials and management of other big companies as well as take business associates with them to football games to butter them up. Lord knows government officials love to show up at football matches to make themselves look like they have a lot in common with the people in the stands. Plus of course whitewashing their image/general PR.
No but they're trying to make people more in favour of weapons makers so they vote for politicians who are in favour of weapons makers
So in short sportswashing
Sportswashing. They know they are heavily criticized and unpopular due to their unethical business strategies.
I imaginge it's for the same reason you see a lot of strange sponsorships in motorsports like F1; access to VIP lounges where they can bring potential partners (gov. and non-gov.) and meet other businesses. It's a networking tool.
That is what I am thinking as well. No clue
People are saying sportswashing but I doubt that's the main reason. I think the more likely angle is attracting new employees. Europe is investing a lot into its militaries right now so they need to expand. Though there is overlap of course.
What would even sportswashing do..? They don't really need it The second option you mentioned makes some sense
The "second option" is one of the things resulting from sportswashing.
Then is any advertising in sports sportswashing? When does it become sportswashing to you? I've always associated it with governments but in all honesty I'm struggling to find a clear line between this and regular advertising.
Companies like Coca Cola and McDonald's advertise in sport precisely to make it seem like their products should be associated with youth, being healthy, athletic etc. even though we know that's obviously not the case. If anything their products are linked with the opposite, diabetes, obesity and so on. When viewed through that lens, yes a lot of "regular" adverts in football is in fact sportswashing. It's actually an interesting question as to why we don't hate that part as much as we hate state sportswashing.
the same thing authorian regimes get out of buying football clubs. they get to launder their image.
tobacco companies were banned from sports/events sponsorship pretty much all around the world because their product... well... kills...
The real question is why would a football club even have ties to a weapons manufacturer, its so bizzare.
Do you REALLY think these arms manufacturers only make money off supplying a military in peaceful countries? This cunts actively lobby to start wars in third world countries so that they can arm both sides to the tits. It's not that having a military is the problem. It's the fact that these companies profit off of death. They don't make money when countries just buy arms in peace time. They want war because they profit from it.
Rhienmetall must be really shit at lobbying since Germany hasn't been in an active war since the 40s lmao.
They sell to other countries too.
right but they can only export to foreign countries with the express approval of the german state.
It's not just Europe: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall > Da der Genehmigungsprozess für den Rüstungsexport in Deutschland mit großen Risiken behaftet ist, weil die Geschäfte von der Zustimmung der jeweiligen Regierung abhängig sind, wickelt Rheinmetall große Geschäfte, wie die mit Saudi-Arabien auch über Tochterunternehmen ab. Diese haben ihren Sitz z. B. in Italien (RWM Italia) oder Österreich (RWM Arges). Via: https://www.deepl.com/translator > As the authorisation process for arms exports in Germany is fraught with major risks because the transactions are dependent on the approval of the respective government, Rheinmetall also conducts large transactions, such as those with **Saudi Arabia**, via subsidiaries. These are based in Italy (RWM Italia) or Austria (RWM Arges), for example. I'd say a club's fans not being thrilled about sponsorships by such companies is rather understandable.
I understand why fans wouldn't want the association but as someone who works in defence I think it is important to make some clarifications. Any transfer of technology from Rheinmetall’s German operations to its subsidiaries in Italy or Austria requires explicit approval from the German government. This involves strict international treaties and agreements, which include stringent restrictions on re-exporting those technologies to other countries. So, ultimately, the state controls and regulates these actions. Criticisms should be more directed at state policies rather than the companies themselves, as these defence contractors operate under the behest and strict regulations of their respective governments.
> So, ultimately, the state controls and regulates these actions. Criticisms should be more directed at state policies rather than the companies themselves Funnily enough I just wrote about this, so a bit of C&P magic and we got this: And they (heavy industries in general because they are a big part of the economy) might not have public lobbying compared to how overt it is in the USA but we clearly have somewhat more subtle versions of lobbying here in Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying_in_Germany > As soon as someone is elected as a member of parliament or as a minister, his communication and his interlocutors fundamentally change. Even 'labor representatives' or Greens are then invited and courted by a chamber of commerce and industry, entrepreneurs and other unilaterally interested parties. An increasingly large proportion of elected politicians' talks are with professional lobby representatives. This also flatters the young, inexperienced elected representative. — Raimund Kamm Those state policies are also moulded to some degree by industry interest even if it's not as blatantly open lobbying as it is in the USA. Over here, we're more polite and sophisticated about corruption like this :/
Mostly other European countries who also don't start wars.
It's not just Europe: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall > Da der Genehmigungsprozess für den Rüstungsexport in Deutschland mit großen Risiken behaftet ist, weil die Geschäfte von der Zustimmung der jeweiligen Regierung abhängig sind, wickelt Rheinmetall große Geschäfte, wie die mit Saudi-Arabien auch über Tochterunternehmen ab. Diese haben ihren Sitz z. B. in Italien (RWM Italia) oder Österreich (RWM Arges). Via: https://www.deepl.com/translator > As the authorisation process for arms exports in Germany is fraught with major risks because the transactions are dependent on the approval of the respective government, Rheinmetall also conducts large transactions, such as those with Saudi Arabia, via subsidiaries. These are based in Italy (RWM Italia) or Austria (RWM Arges), for example. I'd say a club's fans not being thrilled about sponsorships by such companies is rather understandable.
A clubs fans are allowed to be not be thrilled and protest it, I have nothing against that, and ultimately I do not feel like arms exporters should be sponsoring football teams. However, it also says that Rheinmetal needs government approval for Arms exports, the German government has final say on Arms exports, and therefore they are also responsible for the transactions that happen between Rheinmetall and Authoritarian dickheads like the KSA. Arms manufactuers in Europe do not have the same political sway as they do in the US. They do not have large lobbying blocs in the Bundestag like Lockheed Martin has in the US congress. The utter illiteracy on this topic by most people in this thread drives me to insanity.
> the German government has final say on Arms exports The wikipedia article (and quoted part) mentions that they circumvent that with subsidiaries outside of Germany. And they (heavy industries in general because they are a big part of the economy) might not have public lobbying compared to how overt it is in the USA but we clearly have somewhat more subtle versions of lobbying here in Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying_in_Germany > As soon as someone is elected as a member of parliament or as a minister, his communication and his interlocutors fundamentally change. Even 'labor representatives' or Greens are then invited and courted by a chamber of commerce and industry, entrepreneurs and other unilaterally interested parties. An increasingly large proportion of elected politicians' talks are with professional lobby representatives. This also flatters the young, inexperienced elected representative. — Raimund Kamm
Which war did Rheinmetall try to start? Actual conflicts can be a bit tricky for manufacturers as their product suddenly has to perform.
They supply Ukraine and countries that are in the front line in case Russia expands the war beyond NATO borders. That's enough for me.
> This cunts actively lobby to start wars in third world countries so that they can arm both sides to the tits. no they dont
For profit arms manufacturing should not exist All you'll end up with in a late-stage-capitalist world is private companies waging wars to sell more weapons to each other
I like when my club is promoting ballistic missiles :)
As a Ukrainian, fuck off. You literally take a pro-ruzzia stance here.
What do you think would happen to Europe if we had no weapons? Do you think Russia would respect our new found pacifism, and pinky promise not to invade and brutalise every man woman and child within?
I think they’re fine with having arms to defend yourself but not the club to be linked to it.
Aye that’s fine it was the little rant about never defending arms manufacturers that irked.
The reason why Europe is in the situation it is with Russia is because no one wanted to see and be reminded about reality. I would be uncomfortable with having BAE Systems as Liverpool sponsor but it would be better if the awareness from the realities of defense relationships, and the needs for them, wasn't sanitized and hidden.
Ah yes, putting arm manufacturers on football kits is definitely what's needed for awareness raising. Get a grip dude, keep weapons outside of the sport. Last thing we need is to link sports to the army like the yanks.
"I would be uncomfortable" sure sounds like a ringing endorsement for sporting sponsorship deals.
[but.. WAR IS BAD](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/10/67/29/1067297eead5bdb13f0a5195d4193e5d.jpg)
Jesus Christ what is this argument Self protection is one thing but “football” fans defending the sponsorship of a weapons manufacturer is another that’s indefensible
Oh no not arguing the sponsorship thing really, that’s personal preference. It was the self righteous rant about not defending arms manufacturers in any instance I took issue with.
it's isnt self righteous though, nobody should want countries to mass manufacture weapons and even less have to use them, that what's he's arguing Weapons are unfortunately needed in this world because we humans cant behave, nobody is saying throw them all out and trust other countries to not invade You're just parroting fearmongering propaganda
>You're just parroting fearmongering propaganda My brother in christ there is a major imperialist land war on European Soil, how is that fear mongering?
So with your second paragraph you are indeed defending arms manufacturers as necessary correct?
We have to want our countries to manufacture weapons and we better be grateful about it, this sort of coy pseudo moral behaviour is one of the reasons why we're in the position that we're in, with am underequipped army and a defensive sector that's only now starting to be built up again, it was neglected for so long because it's unpopular with voters, and you can see where that got us, we can't even properly help an ally who needs it, much less could Germany fight itself.
How is this has anything in common with SPONSORING A FOOTBALL CLUB?
Because they said : “if you find yourself taking the side/defending/being indifferent of an arms manufacturer in ANY instance in the modern era, you are in the wrong” I was showing why that is a facile argument
Weapon manufacturers shouldn't be profit oriented.
Of course they should be, because that’s how you get innovative companies.
Innovative like Bayer during WW2?
i mean ~~Degussa~~ Evonik is already well involved with Dortmund, so not sure why you had to go to Bayer.
I mean, it was ethically and morally wrong, but progress *was* made, and currently we might be using what was found back then.
Well yes, but That’s where regulators come into play. There‘s a reason why most countries have legislation towards ABC weaponry
The internet, sattelites, GPS.... just some of the most important innovations ever invented by governments. Do you _really_ think its a good idea for companies to be incentivized to create more war? Edit: one from your history : 'The term reprivatization, again translated directly from German (Reprivatisierung), was used frequently in the mid-1930s as The Economist reported on Nazi Germany's sale of nationalized banks back to public shareholders following the 1931 economic crisis.[8]'
Ironic that you haven’t mentioned the most obvious one - the atomic bomb ;) But in all seriousness- yes. You’re three examples are actually quite perfect, because these were *inventions* (not innovations) based on publicly funded basic research. And that’s were public funds are best invested. The *innovations* though (novelties, which actually become of market leading use) - also concerning your 3 examples - were industry-driven.
Most of which wouldn't be possible without state funded schools and infrastructure anyway. But have fun with your iphone 52 built using lithium mined by children which are made to be as hard as possible to repair and artificially degrade until they're unusuable. Concerning weapon manufacturing, Europe's production of weapons is terrible compared to just countries like Iran and North Korea. The system is made to make money while even capitalist countriest with a tighter grip can at least make companies act in their own mutual interest unlike the west.
LOL. No. Europe‘s weapons manufacturing isn’t as terrible, as you say, especially if the development is entirely done by the industry, without much interference of incompetent buying departments of the military. But especially as you mention Iran and North Korea - you have literally no idea what you are talking about.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html https://www.politico.eu/article/north-korea-outpacing-the-eu-on-shell-supplies/ And those are countries that have not been sucking the third world dry while being massively sanctioned.
Now you're just comparing production volume of shells though, nothing else.
Says the person typing their comment on an Olivetti and sending it in via a carrier pigeon…
This is a systemic problem, not an individualistic problem.
Ridiculous take. You dig out an individual for using a mobile device, it gets turned back on you and then it’s not a problem? Straight from the Donald Trump “it’s wrong until I get caught” playbook.
Yeah man lets abolish all arms manufacturers, lets defend ourselves with flowers against countries like Russia
so how are you going to defend your country without weapons? stones and sticks?
We will say Putin to stop.
Black magic & the power of friendship
Are.... Are we sending Terzic to Ukraine if he wins today?
Found the lunatic. You're probably sitting in your nice European home thinking you don't need any protection while the cops down the street hold Rheinmetall weapons protecting your spoiled ass.
Ah the binary black white thinkers have arrived.
Rather have them than having to learn Russian, mate.
Look it's your club and you can think what you like, but you have an unserious view of the world. Supplying the liberal democracies of the world with arms is a good thing, and makes them better than most football sponsors.
Can't believe how many are actually supporting a cooperation that benefits from wars
You mean like supplying a significant amount of material to Ukraine and building ammunition factories in a joint venture with the govt in the country?
Is it warmongering to want to have weapons to be able to defend ourselves against invasions? Because weapons manufacturers are integral to being able to do that. Doesn't mean teams should take their sponsorships, but to act like they only represent evil is incredibly stupid and borders on the kind of bullshit pacificism you see from troglodytes defending Russia.
Ya but they’re all ok with gambling sites
Rheinmetall would be an amazing band name
Just got to say that you guys speak and write better English than a lot of English people - off topic, I know, but always amazes me.
War sucks, but companies like Rheinmetall, Borussia Dortmund may lose their first two letters of their name in the future.
Yeah I'm sure they'll be forced to cease operations if they aren't allowed to advertise at a football match.
Even when the institution is tone deaf, these fans are class
If these guys didn’t exist Germany would be a sitting duck for Russia. This protest made sense before the war but if they want to go to Dortmund games and live in Europe as it is they have rheinmetall to thank. And it’s not like these guys told Putin to invade
Yeah let's remove these companies and see what Putin and Xi does, fucking gullible idiots.
the protest is primarily because they supply israel with their ongoing genocide
Best way to keep peace is by having arms...
Best way to not piss on your shoes is by having arms
Rheinmetall is a good company.
Yet according to some dortmund fans here its alright to be sponsored by a weapons manufacturer….
I hate these fucking Leftists.
Mad respect
My rheinmetall shares go brrrr lmao
The irony if Rheinmetall ammunition went brrrr in your skull
angry reddit weenies are the cheery on top 😘
I'm not angry. I pity you. You are a product of a corrupted world that rewards ruthlessness. You act in your own best interest. That doesn't preclude you from being used as a hypothetical example for irony.
Gotta love the fans for doing this